Welcome to another episode of Cloud Base Mayhem, and welcome to this show with Ben Hodgson. Reached out to Ben recently. Well, actually, he reached out to me because he needed all my media stuff to cover the X-Pyr. He raced in the last X-Pyr. This time he's doing kind of what I do for the Red Bull X-Alps. He's a roving live commentator and doing media, so he needed a bunch of my camera gear that I was given by Marco with Paragliding Live a couple years ago. So, you know, all the mounts and all the stuff I use to do all that. It's all complicated, dangerous, Karen, all that stuff. So we sat down to just talk about that side of things, and by the end of it, I thought, man, I got to get you on the show. I, of course, knew about Ben and some of the racing he's done.
He's from South Africa. You know, I have very similar backgrounds with boats. He's been working on a crew of big boats for a long time. But yeah, he raced in the X-Pyr. His sister was a supporter because his team. I wasn't able to help him right at the very last second. So he brought in his sister who knew nothing about paragliding. So we have some laughs about his last X-Pyr and that whole, it all went really well. And they had a blast and a really cool sister, brother team. Now he's racing the X-Pyr down in South Africa, which unfortunately is not happening anymore. He's done a lot of hike and fly racing down in Brazil. I didn't know that was such a big thing down there. But we also talk about being a supporter. He was Gabe Jansen's supporter. In the last Red Bull X-Alps, who Gabe was, you know, fighting real hard in the top five through, I believe, day six.
And we heard about him. It was amazing. I think he's only been flying for three years and looked super hungry and gotten a ton of hours. Those two had raced together and Ben decided to support him. So he was kind of the main supporter in that role. And so we get to hear a lot about how that campaign went and just what it's like to be on the other side. He's got plenty of experience. And both as an athlete and as a supporter, he's flown all over the world, super passionate. And he's going to be covering the X-Pyr in just a couple of weeks here. So actually, by the time this comes out, the X-Pyr will be going. So, yeah, we talk all kinds of things, you know, risk and flying and hike and fly and training and cool stuff.
Enjoy this one. Ben Hodges. Cheers.
Ben, thanks for coming on the show, man. It's been fun to chat with you. We've been here in the last little bit and sounds like you got a fun gig coming up with the X-Pyr, similar to what I've been doing with the X-Ops the last couple of times. You've competed in the race. You've got quite a history here with a lot of hike and fly racing with the Bourns to Fly a bunch of times and the Chablais and the X-Berg and the X-Pyr, of course, and several others you mentioned. We'll get into that. But it was your first out in the X-Berg in 2017. Was that your first race out in South Africa?
Hey, Gavin. First of all, thanks so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah, I've followed this podcast for ages and never thought I'd be here. So, super, super cool to be chatting to you. Yeah, my first, well, I did a little mini solo hike mission, hike and fly mission down off the back of Solaris Pass, which is down near Cape Town. Not a very good. Not a very good place to go hike and fly. But I ended up with like a 20K flight and a sleep out in the mountains or the Moor Hills and then a long walk back. I was studying down there at university. But, yeah, my first race was X-Berg in 2017.
Is he still doing the X-Berg? Because I remember talking to Nick Nanans about it. It sounds like an awesome race, but it's not still going, right?
No, they stopped it. I actually wanted to go out when I was training for X-Berg. I wanted to go out to do it again. And that year they decided to call it off just because I think a lot of organization and they'd kind of done what they wanted to do. You know, it's it was always it's quite a cool concept because it's not just hike and fly. It's trail runners versus mountain bikers versus hike and fly athletes. And they sort of set the route. So, you know, there's no clear, no clear person who's going to win. So, yeah, it was a cool concept. But it's tricky. There it's all in national parks. It needs a lot of things, a lot of organization to get it running.
And you're from Joburg.
Yeah. Well, more more little farming town called Escort. I was born in Joburg and then moved down to the farm at a pretty young age. But I learned to fly in southern down in Cape Town. Well, I was down in Stellenbosch studying engineering. And yeah. I learned to fly down there.
And that's getting that stable mountain.
Yeah. More. I mean, we learn there's little training slopes nearby. And then I sort of got into the cross country scene and spent a lot of time in portable. And then also around Stellenbosch, Franschhoek is a good site, Solaris Pass. They're cool sites because you're quite close to the sea and you can still go XE from them. So, yeah, we spend a lot of time there. I used to finish lectures and then run up the mountain behind Stellenbosch and go for an evening flight. And yeah, they had like we had the sevens rugby world sort of cup rugby on there. And I flew over, flew over the stadium with a South African flag underneath me and made it on TV and all of this stuff.
Yeah.
Before we move on more into kind of hike and fly and your your history and stuff, I haven't spent a ton of time in South Africa, but I sailed, you know, around. Yeah. Cape Horn, Cape of Good Hope and came down from the eastern side. We were up in Mozambique. This was back in 2010, I guess. So we did, you know, back and forth between Madagascar and Mozambique a couple of times and then down the east coast. I only had one buddy on that who was not a sailor. That's, you know, one of the scarier places in the world to sail a boat. So that was pretty intense. And then, you know, spent a bunch of time in Cape Town, but I was doing a lot of maintenance on the boat. So I didn't get to do a ton. And then years later. We went back, started. Yeah. Where did we fly in? I think we flew into Joburg and then we did that.
You might have seen we did a little outside TV thing up in Malawi. And so we went up through Botswana, which I loved, and Zambia and around Malawi. And so I've done a little bit of travel down there, but I remember our time in both on the coast. And then when we did that road trip up through, we didn't fly in South Africa at all. You know, the. The destination was Malawi and, and to do the flying there on the massive, but the, I found it a really tense place, uh, just in terms of security and it just seemed, especially Joburg, I felt what I've never seen so much barbed wire. And, uh, I, I remember, I remember getting off the boat, a guy picked me up that was, uh, in Durban and getting off the boat and we had to go check in.
Cause I, that was first stop coming. Coming in from Mozambique. And so we had to do, you know, the customs thing, which is pretty traditional and a guy from the club, the yachting club there, you know, took me, he was taking me to the customs agent or whatever it was. And we stopped at a stoplight in the city and he was, he was from Durban. I mean, that's where he lived and, uh, we stopped and I started rolling down my window and it was all, he almost like punched me, you know, just roll that fucking window up. And. Whoa, what's going on? They, they will come out and shoot you in the face. And I was just, wait, what? I mean, I've spent some time in some dicey places, but, um, I curious to just get your quick thoughts on, you know, cause people go down for world cups at Porterville and fly there and that kind of thing.
And, you know, there's been some really cool long distance flights that have gone down back all the way to Neville Hewitt when he broke the record. Uh, what's that like? I put it into perspective. Is it? Is it? Is this overblown or was I just, you know, being a scaredy cat because I, I just felt uncomfortable. There was a lot of tension between the blacks and whites and it was, I don't know. I just, it felt, it was uncomfortable. Yeah.
I think it is generally very overblown. Um, you know, I always tell people it's, I still think, you know, I'm very lucky. I I've traveled a lot with my work and I still think South Africa is probably one of the best places in the world to go visit. And that's not from a bias point because I live there, but it's not, uh, the easiest place to live. And, um, you know, there's, you've got to be street wise is there's places where, where you go, where you need to be careful, but you can go there and you can have a, you know, a month's holiday and have the time of your life and, and be actually really quite safe. So as long as you do your research and you don't, you know, the people who get into trouble there are going to places that you should never go.
Um, and obviously, how do you know that as a tourist, but you've got to do your research and, but if you want to go fly there, if you part of a comp, if you, it's, I mean, it's such a cool country. It's so diverse. The food's amazing. And generally the people are amazing too. You know, it's got this sort of bad reputation. That's quite sad and things happen and it gets focused on that. But yeah, the, the majority of people, they are actually fantastic and really cool.
I'm drawing a blank. What are your favorites? Barbie's called, uh, your barbecues, uh, the brides, right? Oh my God. The food we had down there was incredible. Yeah. And it's a beautiful place. Gosh.
I do. I have a, like you said, really diverse, a bit of a funny story, which is related to this. Cause my, my sister, um, was my supporter during Expeer. And, uh, she hadn't really, you know, she'd been to the UK. My, my mother's originally from the UK, but she'd never really been to Europe. Um, and, um, she lives in Kenya, which is, you know, Nairobi is pretty chaotic. And, uh, so she flew out and it was like two days before the start of the race and she, um, had to go into France to pick up some socks or, you know, I needed something before the race and it was sort of late evening and, and I drove up and she was super confused because suddenly everyone was speaking French and they'd just been speaking Spanish.
And, you know, she was just like, well, okay. Well, we didn't go through a border or, you know, any of this.
And then on the way back, I was like, oh, well, you better drive the van. I had, I've got a T5 van and I was like, you better drive the van. So you get used to driving it. So the sun's gone down and, and we, we leave the sort of shopping center and we, we come to this four way stop and the lights are red and she just goes straight through the red lights. And I'm like, wow, Megs, you can't, you can't do that. And basically like with us, you know, we grew up. When it's dark, you don't stop at, at, at traffic lights. Sorry, call them robots.
But she, you know,
it was just like bred into her and she's been straight to this red light. And I thought, oh God, now, you know, I'm going to have all these fines and everything.
So there is, I mean, there is a, there's a, there's a reason we like that, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't let it put you off visiting. It's a, it's a really cool place.
One of my kind of loose supporters. I'm actually, he was a client on the boat for many, many years. A guy named Keith Cockrum. He's, he's raising his daughter, he and his wife and his daughter, they're living in Cape town. He's a, he's from Texas. Yeah. And she's, she's Ukrainian actually, and been really involved in the kind of the anti-war thing. But she, but they live in Cape town and just love it. And they just, they can't imagine being anywhere else. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a stunning, it's a stunning place. Okay. So you do the ex-peer, sorry. The ex-peer in 2017, was that about when you learned to fly or how long, what, when did you start flying? So
I started actually in 2011. I went, I got into it. My, my father flew hot air balloons. So from a very young age, I used to, I couldn't see over the basket. I used to look out the little footwell and used to go blasting around in a hot air balloon with him. And then I was in New Zealand. I did. I did like a three month exchange thing when I was 16 and I went on a, on a tandem, um, down in Queenstown and just thought it was the coolest thing, but I thought it was like a pilot's license. You know, I thought you, you know, it was a, you did that when you were older type thing. And then I was a big kite surfer when I was studying down in Stellenbosch and you used to kite every day basically.
And before that, I used to do a lot of dirt bikes, enduros and motorbike racing. And, uh, yeah, we sort of kited all summer. And then one of my best friends who I was kiting with was basically the season ends there. And as you go into winter, the winds all, you know, the, the trade, well, not the trades, the, um, they call it Cape doctor, the Southeast that dies off. And, um, we were like, oh, what are we going to do? You know, we don't want to, we don't spend too much time studying. So he's a friend who he kited with flu and they're like, oh, you guys should try paragliding. And, um, yeah, so we went for this kind of demo day. So we went for this kind of demo day with Barry. A lot of people know him. You're right. Uh, runs a guiding school there. And, um, yeah, I mean, like I just fell in love.
I think my first, you know, we did a bit of training and then signed up and my, I think my third flight was two hours. Just, we had perfect conditions and I was just soaring on this tiny little hill that probably shouldn't be, shouldn't have been sorable. And just fellas, I sold everything. I had motorbikes, the works. And, you know, just. Just to pay for, I was a student, no money and then just to pay for it and yeah. And then got into, uh, sort of XC and, you know, my first flight and did like a 10 K XC. And I just thought this is mad. Um, so gave up partying and, and, uh, saved all my money for the weekends to drive up to portable and, and started flying. So that, that was kind of the start.
Um, and then. I'd
be curious, was your, uh, was the, when you learned how to fly, was that the end of your kite surfing or have you kept with kitesurfing? No, no, I. Cause you know, I, you and I have, you know, I have a long background of kitesurfing and I never, you know, we, we had that whole kitesurfing expedition all the way around the world and, you know, spent a lot of time doing it, but it never grabbed me like paragliding. Yeah. And it was, you know, it was fun, but not the same. So
kind of the same, I still do it, um, but I, I constantly go back to it. So flying's my, my staple. Um, you know, it's, it's my big focus. It's if I had to pick one, it would be flying and then I don't kite for like six months and then I go kiting and I'm like, oh man, why do I stop this? It's so much fun. And then I'm mad on it for like another three months. And then it kind of drifts away. Um, it also became a bit of a bit like work, like you, uh, my main, I work on a, on a sailing yacht and, uh, I was sort of an unofficial kite instructor on that. So I was teaching. Um, the guy who owned the boat and doing kind of tours with him, which was great fun. I mean, it's fun work, but like all things, when it, when your sport becomes work, it's work.
It's different. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, you're right. Sure. Where's the boat?
Uh, so that boat, I actually left, we, I was on there for six years and we sailed while we tried to go around the world, but we got hit by lightning twice and few other things, but we got out to French. So
this was, this is a super yacht.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, a sailing, sailing, sailing, super yacht. Yeah. So family owned. Yeah.
Oh, okay.
And now recently I'm, I'm on a, on a racing yacht. So it's a hundred foot maxi. Um, but I'm an engineer, not a, not a, not a sailor. I've learned to sail, but, uh, I, and you're up in the UK now at the moment I am, but I'm normally based, uh, we do three months in the Caribbean and then the rest of the time I'm based around the med, um, based in Mallorca. And then we, we do regattas around. Yeah.
How do you get your flying time?
That's, that's the interesting question. So I used to, I used to be full time and that was a really big gap in my flying. Um, sort of to rewind from, from Expeer, not Expeer, Exberg, I then started working. Exberg was my kind of first year into working. And so now I went from a student having time to working and my flying really. Yeah, I still flew, but really not, not a lot. And then I was on the boats and I was full time on the boats and again flew, but sort of, yeah, I just didn't have the time to really give it the attention it needs. And then I ended up working rotation. So then I was three months on three months off.
Um, and, and that's when, I mean, I'd always dreamed to do Expeer and that's where I kind of went right now is my, my time and my passion. Um, and, and that's where I kind of went right now is my life when I can do it because I've got, you know, I've got six months of the year where I can focus, focus on it. Um, but it's a funny one. And
was that, was 24 your first one?
First Expeer. Ex, Expeer? Yeah, I've only done one and that was, was the first one. So I started about two years before really, um, and set it as my goal and really did not think I'd get into it. Um, you know, I was. I was probably when I started, I was maybe 150 hour pilot and, um, yeah, no, it was super low. And so in two years I just really gave it full steam and, um, yeah, I did a whole bunch of hike and fly races, did a whole bunch of SIV and went from flying a high B to a zeolite by the end of it. And still very out of my depth.
And, but my, my. My whole goal was that Expeer is the dream. And if I don't get there, the journey up to it is so cool anyways, that if that dream doesn't happen, then it's been a cool journey, you know, and, and, and we keep trying. So, yeah, that's. I'm
curious why, why Expeer, why was that one that was the magnet as opposed to, I don't know, Iger or X-Alps or a million other ones, Borns to Fly. I know you've done Borns to Fly most times, but, uh, why, why that one? What, what was the one, why did that peak your interest so much?
So I think the two, two things, I actually went to the Pyrenees, um, when I left South Africa straight away and I just thought it was such a cool place. Um, and it kind of reminded me of home a bit, uh, some of the mountains, there's some similarities. Um, but the, the real answer was, uh, I, you know, X-Alps, it was always between X-Alps and Expeer. Um, you know, they're the two, the two big ones. And I thought if I'm going to do one, there's more chance of me doing Expeer. Um, and I also liked initially the fact of, it seemed a bit more like undercover, you know, Expeer, there's, there's, I mean, X-Alps, there's so much limelight, there's all the sponsorship, there's, and we get onto that, but, you know, Expeer, I thought that I could do it more, not, not racing and more as an adventure.
Um, and it still had that, yeah. Possibility. So that was, that was the dream for it. Yeah.
There's, there's, I don't, I don't know the Pyrenees very well. I did a world cup in Targasan whenever that was a couple of years ago. Uh, stunning. I mean, I've driven through them a few times. I've flown a little bit more, mostly on the South side, on the Spain side. Uh, but what I hear from people who have done the race is it is a lot more adventure. It's way harder on the support teams because the roads are tough. Uh, but also in, in a lot of ways can be more dicey. Would you, I mean, you haven't done the X-Alps, but you've obviously flown a lot in the Alps. What, uh, I, I don't know why. Is that because the, the, the, the terrain, is that because of the winds? What, what is the, what is it that can make it kind of
sketchy? Yeah. The, the big thing's the wind. Um, you know, the, the range doesn't, it does to a degree, but it doesn't really block your prevailing winds like the Alps do. Um, so, you know, we, we all know about Foon and stuff in the Alps and, and you kind of, you know, you have your windows where the, you know, the, the massive, if you like blocks your prevailing winds and you get all your micro stuff. Whereas I think the Pyrenees is because of its location and because it's a bit lower, you don't always get that effect. So you have a lot of wind on the South side and obviously it's quite a, um, so, um, regularly it's quite a strong Southwesterly wind. Um, so you fly. I'd a bit more, a bit more like portable really with, with these, you know, you, you flying thermic sides, but you're aware of the wind as opposed to, I think you gotta be a lot more careful diving into the Lee side in the Pyrenees.
Um, and then, yeah, it's, it's the, it's just a lot more remote. Hey, there's valleys there, which was also my big attraction. There's valleys there that there's not much, not much in it. Where's the Alps, you know, you can get lost in the Alps, but you. You're never too far away from something. Whereas the Pyrenees, it's a bit more, it's a bit more wild and remote.
Yeah, that, that was always, that was something that took me really years in the Alps of flying, you know, you'd bust through some coal and you know, you're tall and it's glaciated and it's epic and it doesn't matter where you bust through. There's going to be a village. In fact, it was, I remember Paul Gushabower telling me that, you know, Hey, never, never, never lay. Always make the next move. There's always going to be a field and that's gotten me in some serious trouble. I mean, I've flown down some river canyons where it's just, God, I wish I would've taken that last field back there and just, Oh God, Oh God, Oh God, Oh God, Oh God. And it's always worked. He's right. But man, you can, uh, you know, there's, so there, there is always something, but it's got, it feels deep, but then you're not that deep.
Yeah. Yeah. So I jumped back. The other thing with the Pyrenees as a South side, I think can be, you know, there's areas that are known to. To be quite strong, if you like, um, and it's probably, you know, you're more South it's, it's, it's hotter, you know, like around Castellón de Sus on, on the punchy days, it's, it's strong flying and maybe that has built a reputation too. Yeah.
I always found in my, my X-Alps campaigns that the, you know, the, the scouting and the research and the weather and, you know, figuring out and kind of having. You
know, the, the scouting and the weather and, you know, figuring out and kind of having. Option
ABC for getting between a couple of waypoints was, was so, was such a big lift, uh, especially for someone who's not from there, uh, you know, that was coming in for, you know, for me from the States or from you from South Africa or the UK, is that, is that a, is that a pretty big deal with the Xperia as well? Or can you kind of show up because, I mean, it really, it's West to East, uh, you know, there are the various waypoints, but when you look at the history of the track logs, there's not a ton of variation, you know, you're, you're, uh, the, you know, the big things are, you know, when they put that X in the last one, that was really cool. Uh, you know, so you had to go the opposite direction for a while, but is there, is that a big part? Is that a big part of the kind of prep?
Yeah. I mean, when I did it, I. Spent about, uh, 10 days before the race, um, kind of scouting, not everywhere, but really looking at there's some key places where you can cross, you know, you can't, I mean, on really good days, you can probably cross anywhere, but there's some key places to cross the main spine, if you like.
And as well as your supporter, there's not, you know, there's, there's only a few places where there's tunnels or roads. You know? Passes that you can get over so that you need to be aware of, um, where, where you can make those moves. And then the North side, you know, I, I didn't spend that much time on the North side. Most of my scouting was on the South side and it cost me a bit, um, just knowing lines and, and being aware of areas and, and kind of getting, getting stuck, but that's also part, part of the racing. Um, and I, you know, I. I think this edition will be quite interesting, um, because there's a lot of local pilots in this edition and yeah, it'll be quite interesting to see in the areas where they're from, whether that gives them a big advantage or not.
Um, you know, there's some, there's some tricky, tricky spots and tricky places and valleys they've got across. And from what I've been told from a lot of the locals, there's a, there's some tricks to doing it. And yeah. Yeah. You might see some interesting stuff, interesting stuff go on there.
Did you feel, you know, with your borns to fly and the Schlebley and some of the other hike and flies races that you'd done, was that the most valuable prep going into the X-Pyr or was it something else? And, and I know you, you got to tell the story about your sister, you know, that you had, you had your team set up, team couldn't go. And then your sister came in who knew nothing, right. About paragliding really. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll start with that and then get on, get onto the, the prep side. Um, yeah, so I, I sort of had a team and then various reasons that sort of, um, didn't, yeah, they had family issues and things. And, uh, so I phoned my sister up and I just needed, needed someone and it was about three weeks. And she's in Kenya at this point? She was in Kenya. Yeah. And she had, um, she had actually done a horse race across Patagonia, uh, 10 day. So I thought she'll, she'll be up for it and we've got, we've got a good relationship. So gave her a shout and she was super keen and, um, yeah, she came over and I mean, the first time she saw me fly was literally the day before the start.
We kind of went and hiked up La Rune and then went over the back and then there's a site once you're out of airspace that you can go and kind of saw. And so, yeah, we went flying. She was like, oh, wow, this is super cool. But never. But yeah, I had no idea about it until I set her up with a tracker and I just said, you know, I'll tell you where to go and all I need you to do really is food, food and water and hydration and I'll, I'll do everything else. And I mean, she was a rock star. She was, she was amazing, but it was, it was quite funny because she got interviewed twice by Judith and, um, you know, Judith sort of asking her all these questions about the race and, uh, and about me. And so she's got it there and she says, you know,
So we've seen Ben hiking up and, you know, he's about to launch and, you know, where, what, what is his plan for the day? Is he going to try to get onto the South side? Is he staying North? And she just sort of looks at her with, with big eyes and just goes, I don't know. Hey, I've never done this before. And then, uh, yeah. And she just had, you know, every question she asked her and then she sort of went on, you know, are you guys at a bit of a disadvantage? You know, some teams have two supporters. Some have three and she's just like, do they? Cool. You know, I don't know. Just, just winging it. But she, I mean, yeah, we made, we made so many friends there and everyone loved it because she was just so, you know, she was just so excited and, and, and so up with adventure.
And I'd see her, you know, I'd send her a pin drop at, at this possible launch and I'd be like, oh, she's there. She's there. If not, you know, I'll find it the next one. And I'd be hiking up the next thing. There's a video of her just like doing this dance. On top of the hill because she's so stoked that she's, she's at the right place and not lost. And so no, it was, it was, it was great fun. It was super cool. Did,
did that, uh, did that experience, had you, had you ever been a supporter before you supported Gabe and the X-Alps?
No, no. So Gabe was the first, yeah. The first time I'd supported. Yeah.
I'm just, I'm curious because you, you, you had said yesterday. When we were just chatting about other stuff before we, you know, we're recording today, you were saying that you're, you know, because your sister was really, you know, she came into it last minute, didn't know about paragliding, you know, it's like you said, it's, you know, okay, just, just come there and you'd probably give her a pin or something, but you were obviously running your own support crew in a sense, you're, you're, you're telling her where to go. So you were having to decide what launches and aspect and time of day and ground navigation. And all the things that, you know, for me, I didn't do any of that stuff. That was always my team did all that for me. Uh, did that really slow you down? Did you learn a lot about it? Was it, did that end up being great? Was it too much?
I'd be curious, you know, in the moment was, what
was that like? I would say it was a mix of both. Um, for me, it was really cool because it was my adventure of crossing the Pyrenees, you know, so I was doing everything. And in terms of the race. You know, and obviously I couldn't have done it without Meg's, you know, she was so good at cooking me food and, you know, up two hours before me, but in terms of the flying and the hiking, I did everything. So it was really my adventure, which, which was really cool. Um, but it is, it is a lot more load and it is slow. And, you know, to give an example, um, I think it was the third day and I got, and this is another funny story, but I got to cross the main, the main chain. And. I'd. Sort of flown a bit slow in the morning and the guys, I was not far off the front pack and they all got over.
And I got stuck on a little Ridge just before getting onto the main spines by a place called Loudonville. And it's kind of the, one of the main highways through, and then I relaunched and got up and I was sort of half soaring, half climbing up the main spine. And as I was climbing up, I could just see the, you know, this, the cloud covered coming down to the, onto the top of the. P. Peaks and, uh, and just shut everything down. And I was like, oh, gee, okay, I'm not gonna get through there. And then there was a big rain, rain storm coming from the other side and I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, I can't fly over. So what, you know, I hadn't really planned, you know, at the start of the day, I thought, oh yeah, you know, fly thermal up there, cross the easy place and off we go. And, uh, so I'm sitting there and I start, so I sit on this bit where there's a bit of lift and I'm start looking at the map and I'm like, okay, well, there's, and there's a lot.
Of airspace in that first section of the Pyrenees, which is tricky to navigate, but I'm looking for a road for Megs to go through. And there's one sort of in the complete wrong direction. So I messaged her and I'm like, Hey Megs, I'm can't get through here. Go to this road. I'm going to fly towards that road land. And then, you know, we'll hike and then I start flying there and then I'm like, oh, but hang on. I can go south rather. So I turned around. Send another message. I'm like, Hey Megs, wait, actually I can go east. And there's a, you know, that's the right direction. And there's a road further down there that I can then go through. So, and, and then I like lose a hundred meters and then I'm climbing up again and, you know, I can see the storm coming and there's just so much going on here and trying to look on this little phone screen.
And, um, yeah, so that really cost me, I mean, that I really lost the, you know, everyone else, everyone who got over was gone. Um. And, and in the buildup to that, you know, I was, I'm trying to think the name, it's a famous cycling place. Anyways, I kind of flown off there and I was with, um, uh, Leonard Oblak and he, he that's the sort of route across the high terrain. And it made, when I looked at it afterwards, you know, it was a great learning thing to do because, you know, he was so much more efficient just by. I went on this mega glide down the valley in the morning going, wow, this is awesome, you know, and then hiked around that and literally was hiking up to launch again.
And he came screaming over my head, you know, and I'd lost two hours on him and that was pure route choice. You know, it should have just glided across, landed high, hiked up 9 30, 10 o 'clock start. And, you know, in hindsight, pretty basic, basic stuff, but you have so much. Yeah. So there is a lot of hits and I think in X ops, it was really. Really interesting. Gabe and I working together and we'll get onto that, but, um, going back to the main spine there. So I ended up pretty much starting to fly south and then the rain hit me and I literally have to spiral down and land in probably the worst place in this valley in Loudonville, which I knew like I'd been there before. And I was like, this is one place not to land because you're stuck.
You've got it wherever you go, you've got to go backwards. So I landed and I was, and I was in a bit of a state and, you know, I was like, oh, I've stuffed up my whole race and then I phoned Megs and I was like, you know, we just have an early night and I'm gonna have to climb over the mountain in the morning and dah, dah, dah. And then, um, yeah, I sort of walked a bit and then I was like, huh, actually it's 1600 meters of vertical, whatever, 15 Ks I've got, I think four and a half hours. I think if I, if I leave now, I can do that. So there's massive. There's still was going on and, and I phoned Megs and I'm like, meet me here, like sandwich ready, jacket ready. And I'm going as light as I can. And then I was like, and I'll send you a pin drop and I don't know if it's a road.
It kind of looks like a road, but if it's not a road, just leave the van on the side of the road, take a tent and hike up this trail. And you'll find, cause in XPA, you can't move. You have to stop at 9 PM. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, so I was like, you're fine. You can find me somewhere. So I sent to the entrance to this road, took all my stuff and, and charged off and it was lightning going on. And I walked about half or 45 minutes and came up and I mean, it's this beautiful place. So it's probably today, the most beautiful hike I've ever done in my life, but I just saw this massive snowy kind of trail going up. I had no snow kit with me and I was just like, Oh, what have I done? And it was the sketchiest climb up and over. Um, but, and, and I was just flat chat just cause I knew I had to get there by nine.
And there's a great video of Meg driving up this sketchy little road. Just she's like hysterical, but just killing herself with laughter. And, um, she's like, yeah, Ben's absolutely mad. You know, he's run over the hill, the whole, the main, the main chain of the Pyrenees. And you know what, if I don't find him, I guess he's having a cold night tonight after the. Yeah. And the mountains and it was amazing. I literally came down and, um, yeah, I, I think I, I got to her at about two minutes to nine. Um, and, and found her at this, at this weird little like campsite in the middle of nowhere.
Um, yeah.
Did you, did you talk to your sister in advance? I remember the, probably for all four of my campaigns, the best advice I ever got, and it was actually our team. It was my buddy, Bruce, who supported me in the first two, we got from Tom Payne, who had done it, who had supported, uh, oh my God, the British athlete, uh, back in the day, uh, 2009, 2011. And then he did it in 2013 himself. Yeah. Anyway, he said, uh, he wrote a book on it. The guy I'm trying to think, I can't believe I can't remember his name. Anyway, Tom said, you know, Hey, not
Ali Andrews.
No, he did really well. He was the British athlete 2019. Yeah. Um, just drawing a blank. He wrote a great book about the X house as well, which was really helpful for us going into my rookie year. But Tom said, you got to have, what have you, what do you guys work together? What do you guys come up with for conflict resolution? And both Bruce and I went, wait, what? And, and he said, yeah, you got it. You're, you're going to make a lot of mistakes. You gotta, you gotta have a plan beforehand, how to deal with them. And, and, and we resolved to just, okay, well, we laugh a lot. We seem to have a lot of fun together. Let's just make fun of Gavin and, you know, we'll, we'll try to process the mistake, you know, Hey, what did we do wrong? Let's laugh about it, not make the mistake again and move on.
That's it. We don't get to talk about it ever again. It's just one time. And, uh, and that worked really well for us that we would just turn whatever mistake it was into comedy. So kind of like your experience there with your sister, you know, she's just laughing. She doesn't care. She's just having a great adventure, you know? And, uh, that seemed. Seemed to work really well, but is that, is that something that you guys talked about beforehand? Is that, is, are these, what are some of the main things you learned either with your sister or also with the racing beforehand that helps you in these moments?
Yeah. So, I mean, with my sister, I think it's quite unique because we have a really good relationship and she knows, she probably knows me the best out of anyone I could get to support me. Um, so it was probably. Unwritten, unsaid, but just live there and it was quite, it was quite easy between the two of us. Um, you know, when I supported Gabe, we had a whole team. There was a team of five of us and there, we spoke about it a lot more. Um, and yeah, it's similar kind of, kind of concept of ultimately we're here for fun. And ultimately we, we, we say that, you know, ultimately Gabe's word is, is final. So. So there's one person who, you know, if, if there's big conflict and, and we, we not, you know, we need resolution.
Gabe has the final say, but we actually never, we never really got, got any conflict like that. Um, yeah, we, we all just seem to be quite happy. And, uh, I think, you know, for us, for when it's your first, um, it depends on your expectations and, you know, you. You know, XPEAR, I, you know, I had loads of worries going into XPEAR, like, am I good enough? Um, is this stupid? You know, am I going to, you know, am I going to kill myself? You know, am I going to be, you know, four days behind everyone? Um, so I really went in with, with really, really low expectation and the same, you know, with X-Alps, we were huge underdogs, you know, um, for sure we had put huge work into it.
So there was. Our own self expectations, but we, you know, I remember Gabe saying to me, Ben, the number one goal is we avoid the crocodile, which, you know, the, the, the execution, the executioner, he calls them the crocodile. And he said, if, as long as we avoid the crocodile, you know, then we happy.
Um, I think in, in, how did
you, how did you end up on, sorry, go ahead.
I think in our campaign, you know, we did make a lot of notes and things. And we really wanted to speak more about conflict resolution. I mean, this came from a lot of your podcasts and it was a hot topic that we really wanted to address, but we had a plan, but we didn't, it was one of those things that kind of, we ran out of time in our prep with it.
Yeah. There's so much to do. How did you, how did you end up on the team? Let, let, let's switch. We were just timing wise here. We should switch over to X-Alps. How did you end up on? How did you end up on the team? How did you know Gabe? Um, I mean, from my perspective, Gabe came out of nowhere and, you know, there was, there's, there's always beginner's luck in a sense, but I mean, until Gabe got hurt, he was in it. And, and just, you know, from, from my perspective, all my campaigns, and then also seeing it from the outside, this was a dark horse that nobody saw coming. And, and it wasn't just beginner's luck. You guys just kept. Pounding and, um, um, talk about that because it was truly extraordinary.
Yeah.
So, I mean, to give you a quick history, basically in my prep for XPEAR, um, I just try to do as many hike and fly races as I could and ended up going to Brazil to race. Um, I met a guy, I came to the X-Alps before, I think it was a 2003 X-Alps. And I did, they had this like. Weird little Austrian race called hike, smile and fly or something. It was like really quirky and you'd like fly and land and, you know, throw tennis balls in a hoop and then take off again. And, and anyways, I think I came, so I didn't, no one knew how the scoring worked, but I think I came second or something. And one of the, one of the prizes was an entry to this, the Brit, the organ, well, the friend of the organizer of the race was there and they were trying to, you know, promote the race.
The. Br, hike and fly. Race in Brazil. So one of the prizes was an, a free entry to it. And I was on the boat and I was like, no, I can't go. And then two weeks before literally my plans changed with the boat and I phoned them and I was like, Hey, I know this is ludicrous. It's two weeks before the start, but I'm trying to do as many races as I can to qualify for XPEAR. Uh, can I come race? And they were super cool. They organized every, I mean, I can't speak Portuguese. They organized me an English speaking supporter. She's also great. Um, no idea about paragliding seems to be a trend of mine, but, um, yeah, helped me get a car, you know, just did everything and really treated me like I was this rockstar hike and fly athlete arriving in Brazil.
Um, and so he went, I went and raced there and it's a really cool, right? I mean, the, the people, they are amazing and ended up meeting Gabe there and we raced together and. We had really bad weather. And ran, I think the second day I did 70 K or something on the ground in pretty hot, hot weather. And, um, I was actually, I was leading and, and well, I was second and on the third day, um, there was coming into the finish. There was kind of two last turn points and there was a, uh, guy in front of me and I actually had messaged him and I was like, Hey mate, what's your, cause everyone's so friendly, you know, everyone, everyone's together. It's, it's really cool. It's really cool community.
And I was like, what's your plan for tomorrow? I was like, I'm going to tag the turn point and then actually hike back and fly off the back valley. And he's like, Oh no, I think that's a bit sketchy. There's no landing there. I'm going to go around the front. So, and he was, you know, maybe three K in front of me. And, um, so I hiked down, signed the sign board, saw him gliding off down the valley. And I was like, ah, here's, here's my Chrigel moment, you know, here's my chance to, to win the race. Uh, I. Shot back up there to the top of the hill, took off and it was working. And when I came down, I checked it and it was working. So I saw it up there, but it was still quite early in the morning and flew across the valley. And it was like, just, it was a really weird day. It was kind of overcast, but it was just starting to lift and I could feel the lift, but not enough to climb in.
And so I sort of eked it out, eked it out and then landed probably 10 K in front of the guy who had glided down. And I was like, cool. I'm. You know, all I've got to do is hike up this next mountain, tag the turn point and glide to the finish. And I've won. And, um, but I knew Gabe was kind of, and Gabe was, uh, he did a lot of trail running, um, ultras and things, and I knew he was strong on the ground and I knew he was behind me and I knew he could fly. And so I was running through the town and everyone's cheering me on and stuff. And I've, I've got my phone and I'm just, and I remember saying to the girl there who does the, the Instagram. She was, she was filming me and, and she was like, oh, you know, and, you know, going on and I was like, yeah, but Gabe's coming watch Gabe and sure enough, he took off and he, he had seen what I did and did the same thing and, and climbed up and it, the race basically ended it's in Pankhurst, it's quite a, a well-known place.
I don't know if you heard of it, but on the main launch site there, so it's probably a 600 meter climb up to up this like Rocky face. It's pretty cool. It's like Jurassic park and, and I was climbing up and Gabe was flying across the valley and he basically got to the hill at the same altitude as me, but not high enough to top land and it was kind of working, but not really. So he was soaring along this hill whilst I was climbing up this, this rock and we were literally racing to this turn point and he would go up 10 meters and then sink out a little bit. And I would, you know, I was climbing up and, and it was just like neck and neck. Yeah. And then eventually the, um, eventually it kind of switched on and he, and he managed to climb up top land and the race was his, and it was a really interesting thing because I was, was hiking up and I went from this like elation that I'm going to win to, you know, just rock dirt.
Like I've been beaten at the last, you know, the last minute and I actually stopped on the, about probably a hundred meters vertical from the, from the turn point. And I, you know, I went down into this real like pit and then I was like, Ben, what are you doing? Like, look at you, you know, look where you are, look what you've achieved. You're going to be second. Like this is, and, and it was a really cool turn point for me because I, I, I really managed to control my mind and, and kind of pull myself out of that and really appreciate where I was. And, you know, I'm not a mega competitive person. I like to compete. We all do, but I don't have that like burning fire that I have to win. Um, and it was like, yeah, it was a really cool point where, where I, I found kind of happiness in this moment and then took off and then was just so stoked to, you know, yeah.
One of my first proper races that I'd finished and flew into the landing and, and it was so cool. The coolest thing was to have a Brazilian when, you know, there was two or three of us. So I don't know if you know, Serge, yeah, you had Serge Durant on the podcast. He was there too. So we had a few foreigners, but it was so cool to have a Brazilian win the race. And as you saw in X-Alps gave us just a ball of light, you know, he's such a happy, such a cool guy. And, and, you know, I think he was more stoked for me than, than he was for winning the race type thing. And it was like a really emotional and we just became, became good friends.
And after the, the race, we were, we were chatting and he, and he came to me and he said, you know, Ben, what do you think of, of X-Alps? And I said, yeah, you know, it's something, you know, it's been a, it's something I would love to try do. Um, but I was like, but you've got to be good. And, and he said to me, you know, do you think it's, it's achievable? And I said, yeah, you know, I think it's doable, but I gave him the usual story of, you know, these guys live in the Alps. They start flying when they 14, they know every valley, they know, you know, the usual story that you hear. And, and he looked at me and he said. But they're just people have been, and I said, what do you mean? He's like, well, they're just like you and me. And I said, sort of, yeah, okay.
Who's this guy, but you know, good point. And then, yeah. And then we just sort of became friends and I, I, we actually went to Dubai. So part one of the, one of the, um, for winning that edition of the trans copy shop of the race was an entry to the UAE. I can fly thing. So Gabe went there and then I actually went to, they had like a fun section, a little small race on the side. So I went again, just trying to do as much as I could, went to that. And we kind of spent a lot of time in Dubai and really got chatting about, about ex-alps. And he just had this crazy drive that, yeah, you know, we, we know different and, you know, if we put in the work and we put in the hours, we can do it.
And so I was. Cause he hadn't, he hadn't flown in the Alps, right? No, never, never. And, and it's, and it'd been flying. I mean, at that point, you know, it'd been flying two, two years, three years, and he was already on a ZO light GT, but he's just, yeah, just completely obsessed with it. And, um, so I said to him, I said, get, well, let's, let's enter Expeer, you know, I'm entering, come do it, let's do it together. So, and he did super well at Expeer, you know, he actually led Expeer. For the first, I think three days and, and then slowed down a bit. Um, yeah, so that was kind of, kind of how we started and, and I think it's, it's really cool because we both, he's an engineer too.
I'm also an engineer and we both kind of are very analytical and like technology. And we also think in, you know, Whenever we talk and ideas about routes and ideas about flying, we, we speak the same language, um, which I, you know, I think really helps that, that we, we both looking at options and we both really trust each other on, on decisions, which is, yeah. Did
you guys spend any time scouting before the race or was it literally just Han and calm and go? No, no,
I, uh, I had about two weeks, two, three weeks before, before the race with him. So I went out in my van, he was in his and his girlfriend, Kathy, she was with us too. And we sort of cruised around, you know, we went to Murano and really had fun just like scouting, doing cool flights. Um, yeah, it was a really, really fun, fun week or couple of weeks together. And then, you know, doing all the prep. I mean, you know, the prep work for X-Alps is there's loads to do, um, and also not being from there, we didn't have a base. So, you know, we phoned a friend, Maurice Coller, um, you know, he helped us stick the stickers on the wing and, and we're kind of all over the show, getting things ready.
Um, yeah. And, and we did a lot of, um, you know, Gabe's super organized and we did a lot of not so much scout. We did go to places and scout. Yeah. We did a lot of prep work on online, on Google earth, and he uses Osmond, uh, for hiking and really looked at a lot of routes and had pretty much three quarters of the race analyzed on Google earth and different. So not, we never had set routes, but we had option a option B and option C, you know, pulled from skyways, this kind of thing, but what works where the stuff works. What are the lines guys are flying? Um, and you know, we wanted to do the whole race, but we ran out of time in with, with the prep.
Um, yeah.
I mean, I, so given the, given the shortness of time in his flying career, I mean, if he'd only been flying a couple of years when you met him, uh, I mean, he hasn't, he hasn't, there's no chance that he's done a ton of racing or, uh, what do you chalk up just that he was, I mean, cause this, this race, I mean, other than day two. The weather was phenomenal, uh, which typically would support, you know, really good racing pilots. Uh, but he was right in there. I mean, every day he was top three, top five. He was just, he was smoking along with the best, some of the best pilots in the world, uh, from a race to go. I mean, you know, Aaron Durogati and Chrigel and those guys know how to fly fast. What, what was it? What was he doing? That was so, I mean, it was from an outside perspective, it was pure magic.
It was just, I just kept waiting for the, for the,
for the, for the, for the, for the, for
the ball to drop. At some point, this guy's going to make a catastrophic mistake and blow it. So, but he never did. I mean, he got hurt, but he never really did. He was in there right till the end.
Yeah. So I think there's a few things, you know, after XPEAR, both him and I really saw the value in, in competition flying. You know, we both went, uh, you know, okay, there's, you got to learn how to fly fast. So he did do between XPEAR and X-Alps, he did do some comps in Brazil. Um, and yeah, and, you know, I mean, in, you know, in, in two years, I don't know how many hours he did, but he's, you're probably up at like four or 500 hours per year type thing. You know, he's, he's really pushing hard. Yeah,
a ton.
Um, yeah, he's really good in the light stuff and the early stuff. So he learned to fly in the South of Brazil, which is like very different to what we all know Brazil for. And it's really like. Like marginal conditions, often overcast, small hill. So you take off and you're sitting in, in, you know, 0.2 of a climb for ages, just trying to get up. So he's really good at that. And I think that really helps him that he can start early. Um, and he can kind of hang around and be really confident that when it's not, it's not really working, he can just hang in there until things start working.
And then he'll be super patient, super patient. Yeah. And then, you know, I think he just does a lot of studying and, and understands lines and understands the, you know, the science behind it. And, you know, he was always, you know, we were talking flat out. I mean, we were on Zillow and I, and we used Burn Air and I had Burn Air on my laptop and my girlfriend at the time was actually driving the car and poor thing, because I don't think I spoke. I was just fixated on, on live tracking Burn Air, live wind. And I was chatting in his ear the whole time, but I said, Gabe, I'm not going to tell you what to do. And this actually came from Tom de Dorladeau. Um, and he said, you know, there's such a difference between being in the sky and being on the ground and you not up there, you don't know what's going on up there.
Sure. You can feed information, but ultimately the pilot knows what's going on. And I, I really like that. And I, I really kind of gravitated towards that. So I, I, I said to Gabe, I'm not going to tell you what to do unless you specifically ask me. So if you say to me, Ben, I'm stuck, I've got no idea. And we had one moment like that. Um, then I will step in and I'll say, yeah, mate. Okay. Fly here. You know, I'll send you, we also use with CU, you know, we had CU cloud running, so I could send him a track log if needed to be just uploaded straight into it. Um, but I was. I was feeding him as much information as I could with the idea that if I arm him with as much information about what other pilots are doing,
what, where's working, what are live wind conditions, what are possible routes, not what you should take. He then has this arsenal of information that he then frees his mind and he can go, right, that makes the most sense. I'm going there or I'm flying that line. And yeah, it seemed to be. A recipe that, that, that just worked. Um, you know, he's, he said, he constantly said to me, you know, in those first days, yeah, we flying fast, but the gaggles not that fast. He's like, as long as you stay with the gaggle, you can stay with it. And, and, you know, he really used the gaggle a lot to, you know, he, he didn't really push out too much.
Um, you know, he was really. Letting other pilots find the climbs. And then he was just, and, and there were a few times I was like, oh, it was kind of slipping away. And then he, you know, he was just perfectly poised where really almost controlling the gaggle, if you like. Um, and, and
super disciplined.
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, he's, I, there's, there's not a secret recipe that I can tell you, you know, I, he, I think it's a combination of, of. Things, and I, I think we worked really well together and, and I know he thinks the same. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think it's, you know, I, I don't take credit for what he does. I think he's an incredible pilot and he, but I, I think having a combination where you work well together, um, really helps. And, and yeah, if,
if you guys thought at all, I imagine, you know, in the kind of debrief after the race, you must've talked about what worked, you know, what. What maybe didn't, what you can improve. I'm wondering where expectation really landed here is in some ways, in some ways I never did as well as I did my first race because I was just like you, I came into my first race going, uh, before I got to camp, before I got to the, you know, that kind of pre-race week when there's just so much stuff going on before I got there, I literally didn't know if I was just going to be eliminated first. I knew. I didn't know where I belonged and, you know, fitness was, was different back then, you know, now everybody's pretty fit.
But in 2015, when I, when I showed up at my first kind of boost of confidence was okay. Half of these people, I don't have to worry about because they're not trained as well as I am. I just, I knew that if it became a ground race or we had some bad weather, I knew I was okay. I had trained hard enough. So that, that was one boost. And then we had the prologue and I did really well. I was third. And the prologue and that, and it was, and that was a proper flying race. And it, and so then, so that boosted it, but without those two kind of points of contact, I just had no clue. And I still had no clue. I was still just, whoa, where's it going to come? But that allowed me to be a pilot in the race. What I mean by that is I just kept flying the sky. I just kept doing what I knew how to do.
And I didn't worry nearly as much as I did after that. You know, in 2017 onwards in 2015, it was just, I was just having fun and I didn't have any expectations and that I flew better than I ever did again, because in the, in the, in the subsequent races, suddenly I had a place, you know, I made Monaco in my first one. I was eight. I thought, God, I could actually do really well in this race. And then that blew it for me because then it was, I could never get back in that just free expectation. Yeah. Why should you be afraid of? Just, just do your thing and have fun. Yeah. And it seemed like that's what gave, was really nailing. And I'm, I'm wondering now, how does he take that same mindset?
Is he going to do it again?
Yep. Yep. For sure. I mean, he's he's in an X. So how does
he take that same mindset to the next one? Yeah, I think
something that, you know, I know Tarquin really noticed in interviewing us and stuff was how happy and how stoked he is. And I think that's a bit of a Brazilian thing or a South American thing. It's quite interesting there. You know, I always tell people you can't buy a small beer in Brazil. When you go there, it's always a big beer and it comes with four glasses. And, you know, everyone shares. And when you hike there, you know, where we go, it's really not a tourist place. I stick out like a sore thumb. But everyone's so friendly. Somehow these people know my name. You know, really, I'm not a high-level or high-profile athlete, you know. I'm just some random South African dude who loves the sport.
And, yeah, you know, you walk past these houses and everyone's... In their garden and there's 50 people having, you know, their version of a braai on a Sunday. And so life is tough. You know, there's a lot of poverty. But people are really happy. And you watch Gabe when he races and he's running through the town and he's greeting, you know, every person. The old lady who's walking a dog to the little kids, you know, people cheer him and he stops and says hello. He's just... Yeah. He's in this, like, state of, wow, you know. And I have some voice notes from him, you know, from Zelo. And you can just hear... I'll try to dig them out and send them to you. You know, how happy he is and how much he's just loving being out there.
And I think you're right. As soon as you stop worrying too much, you know, ultimately, why are we doing this? You know, we're not going to make you win massive money. You know, you win a trophy at the end. Yeah. So why are we there? And him and I both have the same mentality of we're there for the love of it. We're there to get to cool places, to have cool adventures. And I think if you can hang on to that, the performance side comes naturally. Because in order to be there, you've got to be good. It's
like a side effect of it instead of the
purpose of it.
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.
That... You maybe just answered that. A little bit there. But, you know, I think from the outside perspective, this being your first one, you know, there was a huge drama on social media about, you know, this has just become gladiators, you know, way too much risk. Yeah. And you might have heard this show I did with Tom DeDorado. You know, those of us who have a long, you know, have been with it for a long time, there was no more risk. I mean, if anything, there was less risk in this one because the weather was so good. I mean, day two was dicey. Yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes it's eight days of that kind of weather. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's no more risk. It's just social media, you know, making things look bad. And, you know, every team's got a media person or me, not every team, most of them. So there's just, there's just a lot more content going out there.
Yeah. And there's a lot more armchair sailors. There's just a ton of people watching it and they have opinions. And my opinion is if you're not competing, you don't get to have an opinion. Yeah. Screw you. But that's my opinion. But I'm just curious. From many people's perspective, the question of why hangs really big, you know, sleep exhaustion cost wear and tear on the body training commitment that, I mean, there's so much. And of course the risk, I mean, it's a miracle that no one has died doing this race, you know, knock on wood, but, but, uh, you know, you've done it, you, you've, you've competed, you've done a bunch of racing, you've done the support. You know, you just said the event, but why, what, what is the ultimate, what keeps bringing you back?
Why is all of this worth it?
Um, yeah, it, it, it's an interesting one. Um, you know, for me, it's, it's the, I think it's the equation and to explain that, you know, this, this concept of it takes, you know, in me trying to get to XPA, I look at the places I went that. Yeah. I would never have gone to, you know, why would I go to these places for any other reason? And when you start, I mean, to give you an idea, um, I do born to fly. Well, at the last three I did, and I always do it with my dad and he flies out from South Africa and it's been a real like learning process together. And it's really cool because it's, it's our time together and it's our little thing. And, uh, he drives a van and eats panu chocolates all day.
And, and we race around borns, um, and in the one before, before XPA, actually, I just received my, my Zio lights too, which I was going to do XPA with. And, uh, I hiked up and on the first law, we had from the start hiked up to the first launch. I was pretty fit, you know, I wasn't at the front, but I was in the kind of front pack through my wing out, you know, it was on, pulled it up and, you know, I hadn't really laid it out properly. And as I pulled it up, the wing tip kind of came out, caught a rock and literally, I mean, the thing had like five hours on it, rip, rip the whole wing tip off. And, and I sat there, I mean, I pretty much started crying and I was just like, what, what the hell, you know, and phone my dad, you know, and he had flown all the way out from South Africa.
And, um, I said, you know, well, the race is over, you know, what do we do? And sort of. Hike down, down the hill, all upset with myself. And then kind of. Took that off. And then I went, right, I've got a, you know, I had my old wing, um, was, was at a guy's house and he was actually flying cross country. So I phoned him. I was like, Hey mate, any chance I can get my wing? He was like, oh, I'm flying. But like my wife will be there in an hour and she can open the door. So I phoned my dad, sent him their phone, the organizers, you know, they were like, yeah, sure. You know, swap it out. No problem. And then started hiking. And I was literally at the back of the whole, you know, everyone. And it was. On, it was a cracking day and I was hiking and I still had my torn wing. So I've hiked the whole first day with my torn wing didn't fly.
And then, and then the second day swap wings took off, met up actually with a friend of mine who was racing, but he was a bit back and we had an Epic flight together. And then long story short, you know, stuffed it up again, ended up doing a big hike, hiked up, um, right. And then I was back in the back by grand Bernard in shorts and t-shirt, and it started snowing. And I sat up in the little ski hut there, but eventually I actually made it to the finish. And, you know, I was whatever 80th to cross the line, but I finished with half an hour. To the finish and, and I, and it was, you know, I, I put a post on, on, on my Instagram saying, you know, the sport tests you like nothing else in the world.
Um, you know, and it takes you to the. darkest places and and you know you you do things you never thought you would do but when you when you piece it all together and it works the the results and the the outcome of it are so good it's it's there's just nothing like it in the world and i think it's that it's when you know you go through all these hardships and you and and you you're always learning but when you get it right and and you know you you pull off things that you shouldn't be flying now well you know it's not working but somehow it works and you you have these amazing flights it's yeah it there's something really special about it um yeah
that
that's true where you you find yourself in places having flights or being in spots where you i'm constantly going there's no way i would be here standing on this snow ready to launch at 6 a.m and there's all this morning glory below me i can't see anything down at the bottom of the valleys and i'm gonna go paragliding yeah yeah this is so cool yeah this is so cool it's there's so many moments like that that are really they're really precious yeah uh so he's gonna do it again you're still racing you're you're doing the media this year for xpeer yeah uh so that'll that'll be a completely different role but i'm curious for this next X-Alps are you guys already in planning mode how does what does the next kind of 18 months look like for you
so yeah i mean i mean gabe has pretty much gone pro pro athlete if you like i mean he has quite an amazing story you know i think he sold his car to go to xpeer and pretty much nearly sold his car to go to X-Alps and then managed to find some sponsorship so he's i mean he's so committed to it he and yeah and you know we haven't really spoken much about the next edition um whenever we do speak about it he says ben you're my brother and i need you there with me so you know if he wants me back i'll be there you know i we we have so much unfinished work to do there um it would be super cool to to finish that race and yeah it's also on my cards i you know i i toss and turn with it half of me goes to xpeer and then i'm going to go to xpeer and then i'm going to go to it's huge money it's huge training it's huge commitment for the race and should i rather just go do a cool adventure in new zealand or something but then it's also the race and and i would i you know i always come back to the fact that i would really love to have a shot at it like i would really you know i didn't finish xpeer i was i got to the last turn point and um yeah i'd love to have a it's funny when you do these things and if you don't finish you you want to go back and there's there's something that's left undone and so little
tantalizing morsel yeah yeah
i mean we have spoken you know we reviewed this X-Alps um and one one thing we really came up with was on the support side it it is huge work and how our team worked was i was kind of so we we only wanted one person in comms with gabe and the reason for that was to to not not have too you know just two of you to agree on the same thing as a lot and you have more input you know i think there comes a point very quickly where it's just too much so we very much um identified that there's a a role of the direct person the direct supporter with the athlete and then there's also this role of the team manager and i was kind of the team leader if you like and it's it's just way too much because you're trying to and i probably didn't do a very good job as team leader because i was so fixated on gabe and and helping him but you're trying to
orchestrate you know you've got two vans four or five people media team and you're trying to orchestrate this this crazy craziness through the mountains and it's far when it's good you know we i mean when gabe got to murano we were like two hours behind him here and i was phoning trying to organize him via ferrata kid it was it was chaos but um so we really identified that you need someone to manage the team manage the logistics manage all of that and then you need someone who's actually mind is not involved in any of that at all and and his mind is on racing and and and that person is very critical with how they work with the athlete because i think i think that relationship really has a big effect on on how how will you perform what
about just less people uh you know i mean it has really changed you know back in the day it's most teams had two people and you know we started seeing paul and tom and suddenly they had five and three vans and you're going whoa yeah that's a lot to manage but it's it really is there's a balance here isn't it i mean i don't know where the fulcrum exactly lies yeah
big time i i think um it it's interesting because having two vans is really helpful if you manage it and and but then it means two of everything but it means you can daisy chain so you know you can send people ahead um you know i was always doing the morning hike with gabe because it was a really good time for me to offload what i'd looked at through the night all the weather all of this route options what our whilst we had an hour and a half hike up to launch um but then i then i'm then i'm behind hey because once he's off he's off so i had a little ultralight five and then i'd zoot down into the valley but having another van that i could send ahead for the in case he does a glide and hike again or you know those type of scenarios really got us out of trouble in times when we needed it because i was still an hour two hours behind
and when it's flying that fast i mean yeah it's so hard to keep even with two vans and people going ahead but it's a whole nother logistical nightmare you know and and you you you're trying to then and that's why i say you need that separation or you need sorry that organizer who's really just playing that along um but i think you can overdo it you know i there were teams at this edition i think that had like seven supporters and it's it's so much you know to to orchestrate it and to do it straight all of that it's just so much work um and you end up wasting a lot of resources i think because you just have people everywhere um so it is the the team it's it's a really interesting um dynamic it's it's really an interesting thing to manage and and it's tough because you you really have way less sleep than the athletes uh people are there you know on holiday or you know it's their time off and you know you're driving a car all day it's a lot of the time it's it's not that fun but you know you've yeah you've got to find find the good times and you do i mean we had gabe and i and the whole team had some absolute magical times up you know up in these mountains um but yeah i think it's it i i think there's a lot to be said for a small team
my answer to you know why i keep doing it again is it's the most fun you can have in the world yeah i i don't know i i've never lived as sharply as i have during those campaigns i mean the bivy stuff that i've done you know canada and alaska those were those are brilliant and they're and it's nice to not have a race component and you're you know you're all in on those as well but it's pretty fun going to war yeah your buds yeah it's pretty neat uh uh ben thanks so much man what a blast i could ask you uh so many questions about the these races because they're it's i just find it all incredibly fascinating it's so much fun and uh you know you've got a really unique perspective but thanks for sharing these stories i appreciate you man
yeah thanks thanks thanks very much for having me gav um one thing i want to say just before i i go is um it's something i actually came into my mind last just after we spoke and um it's linked with why we do this but i i'm always amazed at how much um you can push your body in the sport and it's funny so again from brazil um when i when i was racing there the first day before the race i'd given one of the organizers a lift up one of the hills and we were flying and stuff and she only speaks portuguese but she followed me on instagram and uh you know i've never done a marathon you know i've really you know i wasn't at a big athlete you know i ran and i was fit but i'd never done any crazy stuff and um i was running and we did 72ks and i was spent and it was the last day and she messaged me and was like oh wow you're doing so well blah blah blah and and she said remember why google translated but she said remember um your body is stronger than your mind
and i sort of okay and then i was hiking the next day and whenever i got tired this little voice just came into my head
and i was like oh my god i'm so tired i'm so tired i'm so tired i'm so tired
saying your body is stronger than your mind and i've kind of adapted that to your body is stronger than your mind can ever imagine it will be and a lot of people ask me you know my training regime's a nightmare i i have three months of training and then i have three months on a boat doing absolutely nothing but somehow i still manage to go and run 70ks and then the next day run another 50ks you know and i shouldn't be able to do this and i think sport teaches you so much about your your mind and and your body and yeah that's my little my little motive that keeps me running yeah
that that is a remarkable thing as you know especially if you have done the training then it's not it's surprising how not painful it is too yeah there's there's pain but you're you're you're in this state in a sense of like you're in a state of like you're in a state of like you're in a state of of you know part of that i think is flow but you're also in this state of euphoria and that you there there are days where i think there you know it was one day that was like 22,000 feet vertical in one of my races where you're just going this is this isn't actually is not possible yeah you you you cannot do this you on paper you know i'm not killing jornay and i'm doing something that even he would find and you're and you're fine yeah and you're gonna do it the next day and then you're gonna do it the next day and you know your feet look like somebody's hit him with hammers and it's just it's absolutely mind-boggling uh you know my blisters were so bad in 2015 that there were blisters on top of blisters on top of blister Aaron Durogati i watched him tear the bottom of his feet off at the end of day two i mean he just ripped them off and it was just kind of bloody and mess and you keep going it's oh it's awesome yeah it is awesome
it's really remarkable well cool well uh yeah man you've left me in smiles i'll be watching the expir closely good luck with uh documenting all of that that's a whole nother trip it's it's fun you're you'll love it it's a blast and it's pretty neat it's kind of it's it's studying from a totally different perspective i've learned a ton i almost wish i would have done that before my first race i've learned a ton just watching these teams and you see a lot of lift a lot of different approaches as well you know you see the light-hearted approach and the serious approach and uh you know it's it's it's fun you'll learn a ton you'll have a blast yeah
awesome thanks yeah i'm really looking forward to it and and hopefully uh hopefully i can do somewhere near as good a job as you guys do and uh yeah hopefully do some cool stuff and and grow the sport you know and and yeah thank you for having me on here it really is a huge privilege to to be on on the show and to chat to you and thoroughly enjoyed it so really appreciate it thanks thanks for the chat cheers
bud talk to you soon if
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