Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Just got off the phone with Tom de Dorlodot. Most of you, I'm sure, know who he is. He's been on the show two full times, and then I've had him on for a few of those little pre X-Alps and post X-Alps snippets. He has competed in what I certainly think is the greatest game on Earth, the Red Bull X-Alps, nine times, incredibly. He got started in 2007, hasn't missed one since his very early days. He was a teenager in his first one. He's been going hard ever since and getting better and better and better. We had a fantastic flight, which we'll talk about in this show, coming off the coal after rounding Mont Blanc in last year's race.
I'm looking forward to seeing him in this year's one. I was quite surprised to see that he'd signed up for his 10th because of, again, I think most of you saw this, he had a pretty horrible accident about a year ago up in Norway, learning how to kite ski. He was getting ready for an expedition. He wanted to kite from the south point to the north point of Greenland, a big expedition. He's done a lot of kiting and, of course, a ton of paragliding, but he hadn't done any kite skiing, so he was doing it the right way. He had an instructor and a buddy, and they were starting to figure it out. Then he went again. I think the main takeaway here was going against instinct. He was the one that you've heard this advice that he's given us in one of the shows earlier on.
If there is doubt, there is no doubt. He certainly had some doubt going into this day. It was really gusty and turbulent, not very nice conditions, but the instructor thought that he could handle it. Just as he was setting up, a big gust came through, and I'll let him tell the story. Things went super sideways. He's had a very rough year. He's had nine knee surgeries since the crash and has lived a good portion of this last year on antibiotics, which, of course, is really hard on the body. But he's, for the most part, maintaining optimism and staying positive and fighting really hard. And he's still hoping he can make the race, but the clock is certainly ticking as we get into March.
There's not much time left. And so here in the show, there's been quite a bit of doubt whether he could even keep his leg. And so things were looking pretty good in the last few weeks, and we signed off on a pretty optimistic note. And then the next morning, I got a voice recording from Tom that he took the bandages off later that day after we chatted. And the infection, which is something they've been fighting since the beginning, is back. So.
The future's pretty opaque still, but he's fighting hard. I think you're going to find this an incredibly inspiring story, especially if you've been hurt, gone through an accident, which most of us have, or you have a friend who is or was. Just all aspects of it, the fear side of it, the mental side of it, the healing side of things, how it affects your family. We got into a lot of places here that are inspiring, interesting, hard. But Tom articulates. It better than just about anybody. So. Without further delay, please enjoy this great chat with Tom de Dorlodot. And just one thing about the sound is I have three or four shows in the can right now, all on one micro SD card, which crashed on me yesterday as I was recording this opening on that card.
And so trying to recover all that, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. So we'll be using a Riverside platform, which is what I use to record these shows. For my sound, using my sound is on professional gear on my end and the Riverside is just for my guest. So if the sound isn't up to snuff on my side, that's the reason I apologize. But these are two good shows to just toss. So I wanted to use them. Enjoy.
Tom, we just had a nice conversation before we started recording here. We've got a lot to talk about, but it's great. Wonderful to see you in such good spirits. Uh, you've had a heck of a year, bud, and it's almost been a year, so we're going to, I'd love to talk to you about your, your accident and just what's, what's happened in the last little bit. But first of all, just, Hey man, good to see you. It's, it's been a while. It's
great to see you. Same here, man. I've, uh, I've kind of missed the paragliding family for the last month. You know, I've been in a cave here, uh, trying to, trying to survive after the accident and, uh, and, uh, yeah, I'm coming back to life. It's great to catch up with you, man. It's, it's good to see you, my friend, the
one of the last time, I guess is maybe the last time I saw you was we had a really cool little flight together in the last race, uh, did some fun filming of you. We had a nice hike up at the coal and down into, down into Italy. That was a lot of fun, a little, a little wild there, a little bit wild.
I think this is one of the flights that I remember arriving on takeoff, uh, it was yeah. After what? Four or five days on something. Um, and, and I was like, I arrived on the, on, on top and I was like, oh shit, we're on the lease side. It's coming from the side, it's coming strong and, uh, you only had 30 minutes or something, and then you had another call or something. So, yeah, but it was great playing with you and, uh, struggling those shitty conditions. Um, yeah, I couldn't make it out at the end. You
handled it like a boss. I mean, remember, I don't know if you remember, he's just so much going on in the race, but I had been at that coal. Oh, what is it called? What was that cold call? Uh, Petit St. Bernard. Petit St. Bernard, yeah. Petit St. Bernard, and, uh, and we were hiking up and we were kind of, you, you said, I was like, are we on the right side here? You know, cause it was later in the afternoon and we were kind of going up on the east side cause that's where everybody else had been, but it was a little bit later in the day and it wasn't very nice at the launch. It was kind of cross and weird. It was a mistake.
Actually, all the guys that came after me, they were like almost an hour behind and they caught, they caught me because they took off on the other side. Yeah, I didn't. They saw that the conditions were shitty on my side and they took off on the other side. So Donini and all those guys, and they caught up with me and we landed just before Monte Rosa, but yeah, it was, it was a ride, like it was a sketchy ride in strong wind. Um, yeah, one of those moments in Ixalps were like, uh, a bit on the edge, but, uh, but it worked out and actually really, I think that it, it really helped. Um, yeah, let's not tell anyone, but I think it helped that you were there. Because we were, I remember we were pinned there. We couldn't move in the wind and then we escaped to the next ridge. And again, we couldn't move much and there was no conditions.
Yeah. But you know, you say we shouldn't
tell anybody, but you made all the moves, you know, you, it was, it was really, you know, you, you launched first and I was kind of struggling there and you just bossed it out of there. And then, holy shit, dude, we were on the deck. I was, I couldn't believe you squeaked through there. Both of us did, we just kept thinking, oh, I'm going to land. I'm going to land. Oh, there we go. We, we, we came through. And, uh, by the time you got down to the big junction, you know, you really had it. We kind of surfed that for a long time. And then I looked down at my clock and said, oh, I gotta be on the ground to do this live thing. And so I landed in the next time I looked, you were a long way down course line. So, I mean, you made it work. I was going to ask you about that. We're getting sidetracked course on our favorite subject, which is the X-Alps, but, you know, it was really different for me to be doing that race from that perspective, because that, that day was.
I, especially, you know, I was there, I spent the night there and the next morning, you know, Patrick and Damien came through first and actually pal came through first. I missed him, but they, the other guys, and it was just a windy, kind of ratty, not a very nice day. And, you know, again, I'm going to wait and film the next guy, then go with these guys. It was interesting in a very different frame of mind for that whole race, you know, when it was spicy and nasty, which it often was people often thought. You know, oh, the weather was so good in that race. It was good for you guys, but it was often, especially that leg of the race. Once you guys got around Mont Blanc, it was pretty rowdy, man. I mean, that day that Damien went huge, it was really windy at the peak tops. I mean, it was blowing 60 kilometers an hour in places.
No, it was pretty spicy. And during the whole race, actually, like, but I think, I think I know where you're going. Like if, if you are in the race, you have that switch, you know, and then you get into that race mode and you get. Through those conditions. And then you look back and like, oh, I would have probably not fly if it was a normal day, you know, or if I wasn't in the comp and most of the days were like that in the itself. So I totally understand that you were, you know, it
was interesting. I mean, that flight with you was one of the rowdier flights I, I, I did. And when I landed, I was kind of, and then I thought, man, if I was in the race, that would be just totally normal. I've been fine. Like you did, you just, but I mean, we took some hits going down through that. Canyon and, and I was really uncomfortable. It was just a very, you know, and I, I know that if I'd been in the race, it would have just been great. Yeah. This is
what you're doing. No, for sure. Good thing. Huh? And I, and I think that's, um, I don't know, for me, like this race, I came into the race two years ago with one thing in mind was to say, well, I don't want to get hurt. Uh, I want to enjoy, I want to go to the end. Obviously I want to do a good result, but I was not ready to risk it all. You know, like I was taking some margins. Yeah. The good thing was that I, and I think, especially for this race in this type of conditions, I was flying a glider that is quite compact, quite safe and really fast. And I'm a little bit heavy on my, on my glider on this side, on this size of the glider. And that really helped for this kind of conditions because when it was windy, you know, I, I could go against the wind. I, the, the glider was strong. Um, and I have to say somehow, like I could hear some of the pilots complaining a lot about the conditions and I, it was rough, obviously, but I.
I never felt in total danger, like kind of a, you know, I, I felt that it was manageable. Um, and maybe because also the year before I was in Pakistan, you know, when you fly in those massive mountains and then you come, it's like you, when you fly in the Rockies and then you come to the Alps and everything seems a little bit easier, even if it's not, but you feel a little bit more, you know, a little bit safer maybe. Um, but, but again, like, um, and guys like Regal and, and, uh, Damien and the guys in front, they were pushing through. Really, really shitty conditions on speed bar. Most of the time, you know, when I needed to take some margin, I was taking it, you know? And, and so, but that day I was coming from Interlaken. Imagine that I was, I was coming from Neeson that morning. So it was like 235 K that day or something when we landed in Monte Rosa, it was fun because at the end of the day, so I did the, the exams a few times, as you know, and at the end of the day, I knew where I was.
And I knew a place where I stayed the year before a nice little, a nice little place. So I flew towards that. I landed in front of this, this little huts, you know, spend the night there. The owner recognized me. Um, I had a good plan time and stuff. And the next morning I knew exactly where to take off. So everything was kind of a, and, and also that, that day I made a move. And I think it's interesting to talk about it is I was with the other guys in France, you know, like I was, I was. I was with, uh, Donini and I had four or five pilots in front of me, but that night I decided to go and land there, even though I could have gone to the next valley. And I know it's counterintuitive and people say, no, you, you have to try to stay in front, but I knew the next day was difficult.
And we have lots of different options, the South options in the lakes and North options in the mountain and stuff. And I knew it was going to be a tricky day and I knew it was not going to be about speed and being in front. So the next day I took off and I took all my time and I was on my. In the air, looking at the options and, oh, who is doing well, you know, oh, they're doing well in the South, they're not doing so good in the North or, and I was one, the only one, I think that started with the South route and came back into the North route. If you look at my track, it's totally different than the other one, but I could really do that because I had people in front, show me, showing, showing me what, what happened, what was happening. And at the end of the day, I was in front of all the group.
I wish I had the kind of patience in that race.
It's the first time I do it. I think I heard Kugel saying something like that one day, you know, it's, they can go in front because I need to see what's happening, you know, and, and it's at the end, you know, sometimes you're 20 K in the back and you think, oh, they're gone, but not, they're not, you know, it's, the days are long. You, if you fly smart, you catch up with them easy, you know, and, but, but for sure, if you can see what's happening in front, you know, oh, it's still a little bit stable. They are low, they're fighting. Well, you avoid it. And, um, yeah, I mean, if everyone does that, that, that we wouldn't be really fast, but. But sometimes you have to be ready to slow down a little bit. I always say, if you want to be fast, you have to go slow sometime, you
know, so that's interesting. I always have that in my ear, that saying of yours, I always have in my mind. Yeah. You gotta go slow sometimes. Yeah. But I
hope we get good conditions this year again. I mean, I'm, I'm, I don't know if I'm going to be there, like really, like probably not. I mean, I'm looking at my leg right now and I still have the pins and stuff. I can show you here, you know. Yeah. You showed me that before. It doesn't, that,
that's not what you really want. Yeah. To see in February, late February.
No. And, and, but the thing is I, I subscribed, I had the accident in March and then I thought, okay, I'm, I'm going to be fixed for next six hours, you know, and it's an important one for me because it's, it was going to be my 10th Red Bull X-House or maybe it is going to be my 10th Red Bull X-House. So I'm, I'm still like, I'm still in contact with the APC, with the doctors at Red Bull and stuff. And we're still, we still think that if in a month we take the metal out and I can train like hell, I won't. I'm going to come with my best level, but maybe I'm safe to start, you know? I love the optimism, good for you. Good
for you.
But, but Hey, I mean, let's be realistic. I think the chances are small, like very small, but, but Hey, I'd like to be there. And if not, you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to come with you and follow you guys and see what's happening. Learn from the outsides, you know, get in front, get in the back, see who does what and how and analyze it. And then I'll, I'll be back into it. You know,
it was actually really a great learning experience for me to do what I did in the last one. You know, if I, I think if I was your age, I would really be thinking that I could have done that. And then race this time, you know, at this point, I just really feel like I've checked the box, but my ski racing was like that. I had a really bad accident ski racing when I had just made the U S team and, you know, everything was on the up and up. And literally about 10 days later, I just totally destroyed my knee. And it was the first time I'd had, it was my first big injury. You know what I mean? It's ski racing. You're always getting little hurts, but it was, it was a big one. I was out for the rest of the season. I didn't go to Europe for the world cups and, and, uh, all the things that were planned, but it, for the first time, it allowed me to get away from ski racing.
I mean, I was still training and coming back and all, all the plans were there, but it forced me to. To just watch tape and get away from it. And when I came back to the sport, I was so much faster because I had a big break. I got to, you know, when, when you're just doing it day after day, after day, after day, I don't know that you're shoveling in the right type of thing. I mean, you're, you're getting really current, which is great and you're flying really well, but, uh, it was, it was just really interesting to see it from that perspective, to see what people were doing, to see what was working. Yeah. So it wasn't, and, uh, yeah, I think I got a perspective that if I was to, to do it again, would really help me. Uh, I'm
sure, I'm sure this is a little bit where I am now, you know, and I, and I also think that, um, I really, like when I look back at the content from two years ago, I really enjoy watching what you were doing there, you know, shooting the guys flying, um, trying to explain to the mainstream, you know, who does what and how it works and stuff like that. And I think that's super interesting. And I. I, if, if I can race, I'll probably go there and try to fly with the pilots. You know, I haven't been flying for a year, you know, basically, so, uh, get back in the air, trying to fly, trying to compete a little bit with those guys. Just play around, you know, that'd be super cool. Uh, maybe take a tent and sleep up there in the mountains and just enjoy, you know, coming back slowly. I think that's the wisest thing to do, but, but at the same time, this is my 10th Red Bull X-Alps, you know, if I can, if I can go for it and I, yeah, I'm still like, uh, obviously if I go, I'm not going to run 90 K a day, you know, but, uh, but I would love to be there with, with the team, with all the friends that are there and stuff.
So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. I mean, I think it's like Paul
right in, was it 2019 after he broke his leg and obviously it wasn't the same injury you're, you're dealing with, but I remember talking to him afterwards. It helped his approach. You know, he had, he had, and same with Aaron after, remember in 2017, he had to pull out of the race. So when he came in 2019, he just decided I'm not going to walk on the pavement. Yeah. At all. And he did really well. He had an awesome year. Uh, so I, I think, I think you just, you know, you can kind of shift the perspective and shift the goal. Sometimes it can make you better, you know, Gaspar,
I remember Gaspar had knee problems and he only trained in a pool for a month, uh, and he was only, he was only swimming in a pool, you know, and training and I'm like, I can, I can, as soon as I can swim, I'll be training in the Azores, you know, at sea, I can, I can spend my day swimming. And, and so, um, we'll see if I can come strong enough, but, but right now my leg pretty much disappeared. I have zero muscles on there. Like it's gone. It's everything is gone and it takes time to come back. So we'll see, but I have, I have the right support team around me, you know, and so we'll see how it goes.
Tom, let's, uh, let's rewind the clock a little bit here cause you, you gave me the full perspective before we started recording, but the listeners don't, you had a great podcast, uh, in French recently that I saw a lot of the highlights and stuff on Instagram and you went through it. I know you've told the story of nine times. You must be sick of it, but what happened and, and what has this last 11 months look like?
Yeah. So, you know, I, I was, um, I'm always keen to learn new things and stuff. So last year in March I was, um, preparing for an expedition. I wanted to cross, uh, Greenland, Greenland, um, from South to North with a snow kite. So I'm a kiter, you know, I've been snow, I've been kite surfing for many years. I, as you know, I, I sail a little bit too. So I've, I've lived on a sailboat. I have some experience with kites and stuff and I'm, I'm a decent skier, but, um, but I thought, okay, well, if I'm going to do that, it's long distance, it's a big adventure. I'm going to prepare, you know, as, as one should, you know, so I went to Norway, um, and with my friend, we hired the best, uh, snow kite instructor in the world. She's, she's done many crossing in, in, uh, Antarctica.
Yeah. Um, she's been all around the world and stuff. And so for, for a few days we were training with her, learning a lot. It was really, you know, easy in a way I'm fast learner, but, but you know, it was, it felt natural and everything felt good. But then, uh, one day she couldn't come, she, she got replaced by someone else, by another instructor that I didn't know much. And, um, and the wind was really strong that day. And the thing is I like in the morning, I was like, Hey, are you sure we should go kiting? You know, it's super strong, it's really gusty. And we decided to push it a little bit because we were going to go on a big adventure. We needed some training. We thought we were in a safe environment kind of, you know, but then, yeah, basically what happened is that the wind was really strong. Um, we stopped near a hut, um, to eat something.
And I told him, Hey, I think it's too strong. You know, now we should pack and go back to the, to the, to the parking places. Like now we're in a house with skiing, you know, and, um, and the guy said, yeah, no, you, you need. You really need to use your kite in those conditions to learn how it works. No worry. I'm next to you. I'm going to help you this and that. And I think I really should have listened to my intuition. You know, I had a bad feeling and anyway, he was there next to me. I thought it was safe. We pulled the line and the kite went crazy and I took off, really got like, uh, I don't know, like catapulted into the air. I flew maybe 20 meters, 30 meters or something. And then when I, when I landed, when I crashed, uh, my, uh, yeah, my leg was smashed. Basically my, my tibia and fibula was, were broken.
Uh, my, my leg was on an angle of 30, 35 degrees, you know, totally destroyed. And I, and I got pulled by the kite for like another 80 meters, you know, because with the shot, I was so, I almost lost it, you know, and I was going towards rocks and stuff. It was in the mountains and I, I was like, okay, now I remember thinking now if I don't release I'm going to die, you know, so it was like, I finally found it and I released. East, but then it took another and now, and now we're out another hour for, for the, the, you know, the rescue to come on a, on a, yeah, on a, one of those, uh, ski, um, I don't know how you call it, anyway, a motor, kind of a motorbike, yeah, yeah, it's no, bye-bye, yeah, there you go. And, um, and then they took me to the hospital.
They had to straighten my leg; it was a nightmare, it was super painful, um, but it was not too bad. It was a broken leg, you know, it was, it was bad, but we're, I was looking at maybe five weeks, you know, like a surgery and then five weeks and then walking again, and then, and then a year later taking the, the metal out, you know, that was, that was the plan, uh, but they, they made a first surgery, um, and for whatever reason, um, I got infected. It happens one or two percent of the times, uh, you can get bacteria, you know, infection, it's a golden staff, it's those bacteria, they're very resistant because they live in hospitals, basically. You catch them there because it was not an open, uh, wound, you know, it was closed, so it's really during the surgery that the bacteria came in, and, um, and so a few weeks later we saw that it was infected.
I had another surgery and I started antibiotics, and then six weeks later when I stopped the antibiotics, the infection came back, and then it went on for a month. Um, the problem is when, when you have an infection like a golden staff, the, um, the bone doesn't heal, so nothing is going the right way, you know, it's super painful, it's pretty nasty, you know, like the scars, they don't, they don't close, it's, it's, uh, you know, bleeding and stuff like that. And then, and then you, it just don't get better, uh, and it can get worse, you know, easily. So we were always trying to control it by doing surgeries and cleaning surgeries and then taking more antibiotics and more antibiotics, and all together I had, uh, nine surgeries, um, over the course of 10 months, yeah, so pretty much so.
It was, it was bad because, you know, every surgery, it's all right, you come back to the hospital, we put you to sleep, we open everything, we clean everything, we take more bone out, you know, more, more of the tibia out, um, we close, we put some antibiotics inside, we close and we hope for the best, and then three weeks later when we stop the antibiotics, it comes back, and again and again and again. And you, the first two times, you know, you're like, okay, well, you know, this is, this is okay. This is going to work, you know, but then the more surgeries you have, the less you believe that it's going to work, you know? But the doctors, they kept on believing and they were like, okay, this is, this is okay. This is a chronical disease now. Basically the bacteria is in there. We cannot always clean everything.
And we just kept on working on it and also taking more antibiotics. God, that must have been a mental
rollercoaster for you or were you able to stay pretty positive through this whole process or were you going through it?
You know what? I have to be honest. It's been, it's been, I went into like, it was dark, you know, it was a dark place to be because at the beginning, yeah, you're positive. You're like, you know me, I'm a positive guy. You know, I'm like, hey, this is going to be okay. We're going to fix this. And then you start losing faith. And as soon as you lose faith, you're like, okay, why would I suffer so much physically and mentally? To just come back to the same point in months, because I, I was just coming back to the hospital and we were just starting again, you know, reopen the wounds, surgery again, all the suffering, all the painkillers, all the, you know, morphine and shits. And then to, to see that after two weeks in hospital, you go back home and then a week later, the infection is back and you have to fly back and start all over again.
And the hard part. Really,
really hard things on a physical. Body. I mean, you're, you're talking major surgery nine times and antibiotics. I mean, you're, you're just, you've been on antibiotics for almost a year.
Yeah. And heavy stuff. Like the first one was a type of doxycycline is kind of light, but then after I had vancomycin through your veins, you know, so you stay for two weeks in hospital and the nurse comes four times a day to shoot you with vancomycin. So it's like, and then all the painkillers, you know, I think the worst part was probably the painkillers. Cause on some of the first surgeries after it was a little bit lighter, but it was extremely painful and you know, they give you painkillers like morphine and stuff. And I'm, I'm, as you know, I'm not a drug addict. I don't take any shit, you know, I don't drink almost. So for me, I've never smoked. So I'm like, you know, I came home to my parents and in the middle of the night, woke up and I was shaking, I was shiveling, I was having a fever attack, you know, and things like that.
And I was, I was a junkie. I was, I really was. Like after weeks of taking painkillers and stuff, I was hooked and that's super sketchy. That's not a place you, you want, you don't want to be there, you know? So I was, then you get swing, like you get mood swings, you know, like one day you're all positive. Okay, guys, it's going to be okay. We're strong. We have the right team, the right people. And then the next morning, the pain is killing you. You didn't sleep and you're like, okay, this is never going to end, you know? So that was hard until. Yeah, I mean, I started to seek for support and I'm lucky, man. I have a beautiful family. My parents were very helpful. My wife, obviously, so she's been great. The kids and, and also I have to say my, my partners, you know, at Red Bull, we have what we call the APC, the Athlete Performance Center.
And at the beginning, I didn't, I didn't say anything like I didn't complain after, you know, the two first or the three first operation, I said to the guys, well, maybe now I need your help, you know? So I contacted the APC and I said, guys, I need your help. And Red Bull directly said, hey, Tom, anything you need, we're here, we're going to help you. So they put me in contact with, with their mental coach and most, most importantly, they did put me in contact with the right surgeons. And in Germany, there is, there is one of the best hospitals in Europe to treat infection. And one of the, the APC heads, one of the big doctor there, El Rippenhoff is, is, is a master. Organized everything so that I could get the surgeries there and Red Bull covered everything. So I flew to Germany and then they took the matter into their hand.
And from there it went better. We did another three surgeries and we finally killed the beast. But I mean, we think that it's now it's under control. I did a bone graft not long ago and it's getting better. But I was at some stage in a moment in like, yeah, at a certain point, I was really looking at some options, you know, and maybe I should not, like, I should have stayed positive and stuff, but at some point, I, I didn't believe in it anymore. Like, I was like, okay, we're not going to kill this bacteria, you know, so maybe we, we would, we should rather cut my leg, you know, and amputate, and, and then take it from there. And I start to watch YouTube videos, you know, I start to talk to a mental coach about it.
I was, I was really between you and, I mean, really, I was prepared I was, I was there, I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was, you know, I've lost a finger, which is nothing, you know, but it's like not that, I—not that is the same, you know, but really I was like, okay, if someone can take it, I can, you know, I can take it, I can take it, and I will probably, you know, probably keep on pushing, you know, I probably keep on with my career in a different way, you know, it—it might even be an opportunity to be to inspire other people and stuff, but I'm not gonna stop living, I'm just gonna cut it and start over from here because I was seeing it as the new, like, the first day of my second life, you know, because one of a sudden, okay, the infection is behind and now I can start building again, you know, because this infection was just coming back and coming back and I was not going anywhere, yeah, so that was really hard.
Um, and the doctor would say, 'No, no, we didn't lose faith and we were gonna kill it,' and but I was really in a place where I felt, a well, we have zero control on this and nothing seemed to work at the time, so I was like, okay, now I have to look at, to look at options. Um, and yeah, obviously, like, if the infection would have come back in the last few weeks, that would have been really hard, but now it's been two and a half months, three months without infection, um, it seems to be totally under control, my body can take it now, I'm not taking antibiotics, and now with the infection, I'm not taking antibiotics, and now with it's just waiting for the bone to, to heal, so yeah, we're getting there.
About your family, not only your, your parents, uh, I know you're staying with them now, but your, your wife and your kids, what, what has this been for them? I mean, it sounds like you've got a great support system, but at the same time, you know, this isn't your first injury. You've had some, you've had some doozies, obviously. This was the worst by far, but, uh, you know, I, my own wife, we were talking about my friend who died in the avalanche this, this spring. You know her? She's definitely asking, you know, she used to think I was invincible. That really, she just didn't really worry about this kind of stuff, but she's changed a little bit now. She's going, you know, who are you going out with? What do you, where are you going to be, you know, when I'm, when I'm going into avalanche terrain and that kind of thing?
I've, you know, it impacts the people we love.
Yeah, it really, it sure does. I mean, Sophia is really strong, um, and and I don't know, I'm actually trying to think about like trying to take some altitude, you know, and and to answer a question in a way, but um, Sophia is really strong and she's always been positive. We we didn't know it was going to take so long, you know, so you kind of take it day by day. It comes to a point where you're like, okay, well, here is another day, we're just pushing through and trying to recover from this, you know, um, in a way it happened, you know. I I didn't have any accidents since I had my kids because I I thought I was taking a lot of time to recover from this and a lot more margins, and it's almost sad that it happens in a sport is not my sport, you know, also because I have really good insurance as if I get hurt in paragliding, but uh, so I would have probably get pretty rich, but that didn't happen.
Um, but um, but uh, but no, just it it was it was hard to have to put her through this because the thing is at the end, and we always think that if we have an accident, that's our problem, but it becomes everyone's problem, you know, um, and and one of a sudden you realize, well, I'm dragging everyone in in my troubles, you know, because of probably my mistake, you know, and and so it was it was hard, but um, the family has been really, really good, like I received a lot of support and a lot of love, and obviously I think Sophie will be extra careful or will ask me to be extra careful, but even that, she's she's never she's always she's always kind of trusted me, but uh, she she will for sure ask me to listen to my intuition more, you know, and get more tuned into it.
But anyway, like I get to a point where I don't want to get hurt anymore, like this is really You know, when you're young, and I remember like when you were skiing as as a pro athlete and stuff, I'm sure that you knew, okay? Well, I'm pushing, I break a bone here, there, this is part of the game. I'm just gonna go through this and stuff, but I'm almost 40 years old now and I don't see the point. It hurts, yeah, it sucks. I, I don't, I don't want to stay in hospitals anymore. You know, all of those days that I lost in hospitals and it was depressing, and I thought I could be walking with my kids on the beach, or I could be freediving somewhere, I could be surfing, or could be training, or it could be, you know, if I had been a little bit more careful, all those projects like I had a super packed year with cool travels, amazing adventures, and everything was canceled.
And the hard thing is that I could never get out of my house, I could never get out of my house, and I us say to anyone like the sponsor, we're like, "Okay, so you think that in May you're gonna be okay and we can do this?" Yeah, yeah, yeah, in May. Oh, easy, in May I'll be good, and then the infection will kick back. And so I had to kind of learn that, um, you know, things don't always go our way, um, and that's, that's how life is. And you know, out of the thing that happened to us, we don't have control on it, you know? And, and we, we just have to take it as it is, um, and but in every of those difficult moments there is something we can learn, you know? And so I really try to be resilient. I read a lot of books about mental coaching, about you know, things like that, because I, I also give motivational speeches, and then I learned beekeeping online.
I started with beekeeping, I'm making honey now in the Azores, I planted trees, I learned about biology About agroforestry, uh, you know, whatever I could do. Um, I learned about AI, I read a lot of books, you know, I just all the things that I didn't take time to do in the in the past, you know, I was, I was doing it, uh, one of a sudden I was doing it. But just to answer your question, I think, I think it's, it's hard for the family, and that's it comes to to this also is that at some point I was really struggling and I was trying to get some help, and you know, your friends will say, "Hey, call, call psychologist, a mental coach," things like that. And I tried, I tried a few times, some people gave me some names and numbers and stuff, but it didn't click, you know?
And I, in a way, I, I do think that we professional athletes, we, we work a little bit differently, maybe, you know, then I mean, everyone is different, but I think that for us, um, maybe for them it's more complicated to understand how we work, or I don't know, but I didn't, I didn't find the right fit there. But then I thought I was in It really struggling in in Germany after two and a half weeks in bed without moving, you know? And I was like, "Okay, who can help me now?" Because I have to get out of this, this place. And um, and I thought about Karina Olikin. You know, Karina is, uh, used to be a rebel athlete. She was a professional skier, and she was a base jumper, and she sadly, she had a massive accident. She also lost friends and stuff before that, but she had a massive accident and she struggled with it for years.
Um, also because she had an infection, and so I remember that. And I think that's the thing, that's the thing, that's the, well, maybe I can find her number. I can contact her or something. So I send her a message on Instagram. It's like, "Hey Karina, you don't know me, I know you. I've been following what you do and stuff. And would you have time to call me or to talk? Because I'm going through a difficult time and I think you can help me." And the next morning she called, and we had a wonderful, um, conversation. She was really strong girl, like amazing how strong she is. And she said a few things that really
said, "Hey, until you didn't stop fighting, you didn't lose. You know, it's not finished until you decide. You can tell the doctors that you're gonna keep your leg. You know, whatever they say, you're gonna go through this, and this is the only way you're going out. Like, if you abandon, if you give, you know, if you give up, you screw. That's, that's for sure. You know, you have to put to think positively. You have to stay strong. You have to go through this." The first thing that she said and and I, it helped. And then she said something that really, really helped me was that she said, "Hey, Tom, you have kids, right?" And I'll say, "Yeah, yeah, I have two kids." And she said, "Well, you know, don't forget that they're looking at you. They're looking up to you. They, they see how you react to challenges.
They see how resilient you are, how positive you are. They see everything, and they're going to take you as an example when they're going to go through difficult time, difficult moments in life, you know." And and then one of a sudden, I was, I realized everything that I had imposed to them, you know, like all the negativity. The, you know, sometimes you don't pay attention, but you maybe you're, you're complaining in front of them, maybe more than what you should, things like that, you know. And um, and so I thought, well, it's true. It, it is an opportunity today. I have an opportunity to show them, or to try to teach them how to react in front of adversity and how to try to stay positive, resilient. To see, you know, an opportunity to show them how to react in front of opportunity in every challenge.
Um, and that really clicked. It changed everything. Like, I came home and I was like, "All right, guys, we're gonna kill the beast. We're gonna make it together. We have to be, you know, bounded." And and so it was, it was wonderful. And really, it really helped. Um, and from there, the infection basically got under control and the pain got more manageable. I could sleep a little bit more. The kids were positive, and I love that they gave
You, um, it sounds like it gave you a perspective on accountability in a sense that was, was really powerful for those of you listening. I'll have the link to her film; I'm almost positive it's called "Six Seconds to Joy." It's a, yeah, incredible documentary, and she just smashed herself, and, uh, it's a great documentary and she's a lovely person. It was great that you were able to contact and make this contact with her, but I, I love that. I heard you talk about this on the podcast you did, the one that's in French, uh, and it actually made a huge shift for me as well. I have to thank you for that, because I was also in a pretty dark place after losing my buddy, and I can imagine it made me realize that, you know, hey.
And my daughter was really close to him as well, and it, it made me realize that, you know, hey, I, I need to lead here. I need to show her that life's going to be fine, life's going to be okay, that we can move forward on this, and we, you know, it doesn't mean we need to forget him or leave him, you know, we can carry him with us, but he, he would want us to behave better here, you know, exactly when it comes to all this. It gave me accountability as well, you know, hey, I, I, she's just seven, I'm 52, I need to do a better job here, yeah.
Exactly. I, I was there like, I was, I was trying to speak to myself and say, "Tom, get your shit together," you know? Because it's, I don't say it's easy, you know, but sometimes the easy way is to just get drunk and forget, you know, or get wasted and negative and frustrated and aggressive. It, it is sometimes the easy, the easy way out, you know, obviously. And, and also that sometimes that's what we learn, that's what we see on TV, in films, you know? That's culturally what's accepted in a way, you know? You should be sad and you should be, but no, hey, you know, we can, we can take it differently. And when you lose a friend like you did, and this is the hardest, um, thing that, that can happen to anyone, um, lose a member of your family or a friend, it's, it's the same.
I think we should, we should allow ourselves to be vulnerable, you know, to take the hit. Um, and we talked about it a little bit earlier, but you know what? This is fine. We are men's or women's, you know, we, but we, we can talk about the feelings that we have. We don't have to bury it. Um, but then also we have, we have a
Going, you know, I take the examples as an example sometimes. In moments like this, you know, this is rough and the weather is shit and you're under the rain and you've been walking for 90 k's and you don't want to walk anymore. But, but you go, you keep on walking. You're in the robot mode, you know, you keep pushing and eventually the next day the weather is good and you get those perfect flying conditions and then it's just a bad memory and, and but it's just about keep on going. You know, you have to just keep pushing, uh, slow, steady and not sitting there. You had to kind of
take that on, uh, for your kids, you know? Hey, this is, yeah, I... it was interesting because when I heard you, you say that, uh, like you said, it is hard, but it's also in some ways it was easy to just make a shift. Just, you know, what? Tomorrow I'm getting up, I'm gonna be different. I'm gonna, you know, I've gone through a lot in my life as you have, you know? I mean, this was my self-talk because I've been through a lot of shit, dude. You've been hurt, you've had a bunch of stuff, you've, you've been in worse places, you know? Remember him, grieve, but not too much. Move on now. It's, it's time. And that really helped me, and I think, like you said when we were talking before, that's what my buddy would have wanted as well, you know? And I, that's why I asked you about the family, I, you know, as supportive
As they have been, has there been any talk of, you know, hey, maybe we should take on, take up chess in the future? Is there any reluctance from them? You know, you know, you're still, you're still shooting for your 10th X-Alps here in June, yeah?
You know, it's, um, again, like I, I learned, I learned from my mistake, you know? And this, this was a mistake, you know. I, I should have listened to my intuition. I'm a safe pilot, I know my sport, you know? And I know where to stop and think. I think there, it was a bit of, I was a bit confused because I don't know the sport, you know? I'm, this is not my speciality, it's no guiding. I was with an instructor, I felt protected and safe, and I think that he felt that he was with someone, maybe special, because I had a rebel helmet, you know? This is sometime it happens, they're like, "Hey, this guy knows what he do," but I had no clue. And I think that it's a shared responsibility. I'm not saying it's his fault or it's my fault or whatever, I'm just saying that, you know, the whole situation was, it's just, it was bad and it was not, it didn't feel right.
And I think that it's a shared responsibility, and I think that it's a, and I should have known. I know I have to listen to my intuition. I know my intuition is based on my experience, you know? And, and all the experience that I gathered all over this stuff
There's, there's a wise guy named Tom the door loader that once said, "You know, if there is doubt, there is no doubt. You must exactly—man, must have been—you must have thought about that a million times in the last year when
I flew off. I was, I knew I was going to break something. I was like, "Tom, you've been there before, you know this. You know, like, why did you listen to, you know, the guy who's been there before? And why didn't you just, just be you? Be safe as you are always, you know, like?" And so anyway, I think again, I read that somewhere the other day, it's like we, we have controls on some of the things that happens to us, but many of the things that happen to us we have zero control on. It can be health issue, it can be an accident, it can be losing a friend or losing your job or losing a sponsor, some of the things that, it's just, it's not, it's not your fault. It's, it's not anyone's, you know? But it's just shit happens and this is life. And so on, all those things that you don't control, you can always kind of look back and say, "Oh, I made a mistake," or this or that, and try to.
But anyway, it happened and now the only way out is the way it's forward. You know, it's like, how do I shift this? How do I take it as an opportunity to And one of a sudden, I realized like, I was always kind of a... in the last 15 years, I was always in a hurry, you know? Like, going from one expedition to the other, to a plane, to the next flight, to this, to that. Rebel Exiles adventure things that, um, you know, my family name is Tom the Dollar Dot, and I remember the guys from Cross Country magazine called me Tom Do-a-lot, you know? Like, kind of twitch my name too, because I was... I would never stop. And and one of a sudden, like, you forced to stop, you forced to take some altitude, in some distance, and say, "Hey, you know what? I'm not gonna fly for the next month. I'm not gonna go anywhere. Now it's focused on family time.
You can learn cooking because you've always wanted to learn cooking, or beekeeping, or read some books." And then I also realized one thing is that I'm not going to that... the world doesn't stop without us, you know? You can sit somewhere for a few weeks and no one will realize. Like, we always think, and especially us sponsor athletes, we have that pressure, you know, of producing content, of telling stories of, and as you, you know, I, I love to be a storyteller and I love to, um, try to inspire people or share the knowledge and stuff. But also, you know, we, we have to be able to take some time off and disconnect, and it kind of forced me to, to do that, um, and to take some perspective on life. You know, what is important? What is less important? You know, maybe I should spend more time with, with my good friends.
Uh, maybe I should enjoy the little things in life a little bit more, you know? Because all the things that we take for granted, and I know it's a classic, you know, everyone that goes to, to hospitals and health problems, they'll tell you the same. We think we have a thousand problems until we have only one, you know? And when you have a health problem, one of a sudden, all this little problems, you know, they're not problems anymore. You don't give a shit about it, like, okay, this is not important. What is important is to be healthy and to be with the people you love, and you know, to do good things for, for, for friends and be there for, for family and stuff. So I'm just saying like, it, it gives you perspective, um, and it teaches you a lot. So I'm not saying this happens for a reason. I, I don't know if it happened for a reason, but I'm just trying to make the best out of it now.
Good for you. I spent three days in the last race up at Tracy May with, and Jürgen was with me, you know, our safety director, who I've become good friends with. Jürgen's a long time mountain guide and has branched into other things that are helping support, you know, his finances, obviously. But we had, we had a really interesting talk one day. We were waiting for somebody to come through, I think you'd already gone through, I didn't see you there. But, uh, he, he was saying that his, a lot of his mountaineering guy, you know, other guides, co-guys that he's worked with are really struggling in the Alps, partly because of climate change, and the, you know, the mountains are, are crumbling, and, and routes that have been routes for 50 plus years are not reliable, and, you know, they're, and they're killing people, and, and he was saying, you know, that it's
These folks that have mountain, you know, they've guided their whole lives, are suddenly finding themselves in these positions where, you know, they don't have much retirement, they don't have much of a security blanket. They're, they're relying on their bodies, which are getting older and, you know, not as resilient, not as durable. Has this last year, uh, going through all this, has it changed potentially how you approach the future in terms of your life and your career, in terms of your, you know, like you said, your job, uh, really is a sponsored athlete, is creating content, is doing this stuff? Is it scary? Is it making nervous? Has it all? Yeah, yeah, you know, no.
Totally, I mean, and I'm going to be totally honest with you here, um, I've lost a few sponsors this year, um, I've lost Garmin, who is Garmin was a sponsor for more than 15 years, um, and I received an email one of a sudden, you know, "Hey Tom, we're changing, you know, we're changing the politics, um, okay, we're not going to work together. This has nothing to do with your accidents," which I and I again, I don't hold any grudge or anything like I'm, you know, I'm that type of guy, like I, I had a good friend at Garmin for many years, he left, got replaced by someone, you know, people change, politics inside politics change, you know, there's a lot of things, but obviously got me stressed a little bit because then I'm like, "Oh, um, I'm not working with them anymore," you know, and uh, and on the other side, I had sponsors like Red Bull calling me the next day of the accident or two days later and say, "Hey Tom, you don't worry about anything, we have your back, we're here, it happens, you know, athlete get hurt, we know the drill, you know, we're gonna help you, we're gonna support you, we're not gonna leave you alone and stuff." And then one of a sudden you're like, "Okay, they're there, they have my back," you know, they've been incredible, uh, partners, like, um, like Advents, I called Advents and I said, "Hey guys, I, I couldn't work much this year, you know, I feel kind of bad to send you my bill, you know, because my invoice, because you guys are supporting me, but I haven't done much." And they said, "Tom, this, this we knew when we signed a contract with you, we knew that this can happen, did happen, no worries, we're here, we're gonna help you, it doesn't change anything." You know, most of my partners have been there, so that's great.
Now, having said that, um, so this year I'm okay, but having said that, I'm gonna turn 40 years old soon, and when I was 21 and starting, it was like, "Hey" If I make it 40, you know, I felt like 40 was being a grandpa, you know, right? And now, and I'm gonna be 40 years old, and my friend Oracio is 42 or 43, you know? And we, we, we talk about this, we're like, "Hey, what's next for us?" You know, what, what should we do? And we both feel that we still have a lot to give, um, but maybe now we can start thinking about sharing the knowledge, you know, about exactly what you've done with your book and things like that, you know? I think this is great because you gather experience from those years, you know? And then when I'm sending, think, "Hey, what about sharing it?" You know, what about trying to see, do things a different way?
So, during my time in hospital and at home, I developed a lot of—I do a lot of motivational speeches and keynotes here in Belgium and in France, in, in Switzerland, for big companies, you know, to try to inspire their, their people, and that worked quite well. So now I have more of that, and it pays decently. So I'm trying to find ways, you know? I, I also, I didn't tell you that your book is great, and I don't think that it's going to be successful, but I hope you did. So I hope you was able to share it with someone who's interested in this. So, and I'll see you next week on the podcast, or on the podcast. Thanks for watching and see you next week on the podcast. Bye bye. Yeah, I think I sent—I sent you a photo, but I—I could raise some money and and buy a new boat, so we have a new sailboat now. It's a aluminum 45-foot monohull, beautiful expedition boat that is india door is now getting prepared for next year adventure and stuff. So, if I—the dream job for me in five years' time, let's say, would be to be kind of Captain Tom or something like that, and inviting athletes, pro athletes, on board and helping them to realize their dream, or pilots who have two or three weeks per year, you know, they can escape and they want to go wild.
They want to go to New Zealand or Pakistan or the Alps or do some BV flying, you know, maybe have a team of people like that that are self-minded and they really want to learn some stuff. Maybe I'll do that, you know, I think I would like that. Um, but, but I'm—I'm gonna take less risk. Yeah, and actually I'm going, I'm going next week to the Bahamas with the Rebel Athletes. So every year we have a training week with the Rebel Athletes, uh, so all the guys that fly, so it can be the base jumpers, the skydivers, um, I'm gonna, you know, most of those guys, and many of them are, are your friends too, so you know all those guys. But, um, the speed riders and the paragliders and stuff, and the team, they asked me to make a speech in a keynote about risk management, you know, which is maybe I'm not the best person to talk
to, but I'm going to do it. So I'm going to do it. I'm going to talk
about it, but in a way I have some experience, so um, and so I'm going to prepare that. And this is where I see myself in the future is to me, maybe the old guy that can help a little bit the younger generation to grow and and avoid the mistakes that I've done. Maybe in a way it's
Interesting, these, you know, we talk about this with, you know, the best mistakes are the cheap mistakes, right? The ones that don't break you for a year. But it's hard, it's hard to navigate risk without making mistakes, you know? I'm just hearing, hearing your, your story, you know, getting hurt in a sport that wasn't really yours. I have the same story with mountain biking, never to the extent, you know, but I, I went over the handlebars on my mountain bike before the 2017 race and had surgery in October, and it was a real race, you know? It was, it was, I did the hyperbaric chamber and I did everything you possibly could to get, so I could still do the x-outs, but and again, I'm not comparing, your accidents way worse, but it, it just I
Couldn't go slow on a mountain bike, and I'm not very good on a mountain bike, you know? So I basically just decided I'm not mountain biking anymore. I just had to make that decision, you know? I... I, if I can't go out and go slow on a mountain bike, then I shouldn't do this. And because I... it's my... the way I think about my abilities is sometimes beyond where I actually am. So with paragliding, that's my sport I can do it with. Skiing, the same, pretty much guarantee I'm not going to get hurt skiing. I should knock on stuff, that's a terrible thing to say, but I've seen... yeah, but you like speed and
yeah i
know it, I can ski really fast. I, I've, I spent my life skiing. I'm a way better skier than I am a paraglider, but you know, I just decided when I went over the handlebars and broke my shoulder to bits, you know, I don't want to get hurt anymore. I'm too old for this, yeah. And I'm just, I'm leaving that one, you know, I just had to kind of write that one off, yeah. But without doing that, I don't know, you know.
i'm not
It's hard, especially in our sport. You know, we talk about intermediate syndrome over and over and over again. It's hard to get better without screwing it up, yeah.
And and the thing is, like, I totally understand your point, and I also, for example, I said, "Okay, I'm not, I'm never going to do my motorbike license because I think it's too fast and too dangerous." And so, if I don't have the license and I'm not taking the risk, um, the problem with paragliding, it's that it's not even an
It's been my life for 20 years. It's been the way I make money, also. It's been who I am in a way, you know? Like, um, yeah, all my friends, my best friends, you know, all those adventures, the access to the world for me, it's paragliding, yeah. And I have to say, like, in a way, I didn't miss it, like, it's weird, yeah. I kind of, you know, I've not that I had enough because I love flying, you know? But for the last month, you know, I was not like the first thing I think about is maybe not the first thing I think about going back to flying, you know? I just want to walk and go swimming and go maybe. But what I know is that as soon as I will go back into it, you know, I will realize, oh, that feels good, you know? And I wrote somewhere on the paper the few things that are my goals, you know?
One of the goal was to be at these Red Bull Excels and trying to recover for that, which is I think a bit difficult. But if it's not, this one's going to be in two years, but to do one more Red Bull Excels at least for, yeah, the 10th time, you know? It's going to be my 10th time. I wrote that on a paper, and I wrote also on a paper that I wanted to fly a tandem with my son again, you know? To fly with, with Jack, and I think that's for me, that's super important, like, it's, it's some of the things I want to do, and I will go back into paragliding, that's, I cannot stop paragliding, you know? But in everything that we'll do, I will be extra careful, um, and I think that sometime, especially as a pro athlete, for example, you get to a place where you need to do
Um, there's a big crowd, 3,000 people. They're waiting for you to do something. You have the pressure, you know, a bit of pressure competing. It's the same. You have a bit of pressure, big sponsors, big event. You have a bit of pressure. I used to put pressure on myself, you know, for things like that, but now I think I'm just gonna say, "Hey guys, I've been there. I've done many days in the hospital, you know, I know what I can do and what I can't do, and I'm not gonna take extra risk here." Um, and if something happens, because something can always happen, we know it. Some of the best pilots in the world had accidents. Uh, we've lost Team A all last year, you know, that was—that was terrible. And he was probably one of the best of us. Um, he was—he was really a great pilot. Um, we know it can happen and we accept that, but let's try to limit the risk as much as we can.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that it sounds, it sounds like
And I'm, and I'm, you know what? You know what, it's interesting because I had this discussion with the mental coach. You know, um, we have a mental coach at the APC; he's a great guy at the Athlete Performance Center. Rebel knows that, okay? You can train physically, but you should also train mentally, you know? So we have, we have that support, and I had a conversation with him and, um, it was about where I see myself in the future, and it was about risk-taking. It was about, it was super interesting, and what I realized is that, yes, life is different phases, you know? Sometimes I'm like, "Hey, what if I didn't have kids?" You know, I could be totally free and travel the world, and this, uh, but then if you think about it, you're like, there are people that would like to have kids and cannot have kids, you know?
Or so the discussion went around this, and at the end of the day, what we realize is like, it's all about being grateful, you know? You've, you went around the world on a sailboat, you've done that, and now you, it's another phase in your life, and now you have a kid And it's another phase in your life, and you, you're grateful for what you did in, in the past, and you're grateful for what you do now. And maybe tomorrow it's another moment, and it's going to be different, but just enjoy the moment and be grateful. And it's just, we're going through phases in life. It's not, it's not the end of life, you know? You would think in a world where being an athlete it's between 20 and 35, you know, you would think that close to your 40, this is done. But no, man, there's so much we can still do. And plus, paragliding is one of those sports where you can be really good at it at 45, 50, 55 years old.
You know, you can be a beast, you can be a master. Um, maybe you're not going to perform, uh, to the top level at the Red Bull X House, but you know, you know what I've done? Almost 10 Red Bull X House, you know. That's okay, been there, done that, you know? It's and and you too, man. We've done a lot, and it's and it's cool, like, hey, let's let's bring the next generation, you know, and let's help them to do things and to push the boundaries. And and you know, I'm not going to say we're too old for this shit, but in a way, um, it's fine, you know? I want to see my kids grow. There are some things that are more important than than hurt myself or kill myself flying and breaking records or things like that, you know? So right now, that's where I am. I still want to give some things to the sport, I still want to be there, I still want to fly, and but also I realize that you can do amazing things without taking a lot of risk.
You can enjoy yourself places without having to be the most extreme, you know, flights, and really enjoy. Sometimes I enjoy a flight, as I said, with my kids on the beach, you know, like soaring sites, and I'm having the best time of my life. So it's just, uh, we've talked about on
the show too, uh, you know, the whole X contest factor, you know, you mentioned Timo, one of the best pilots ever, really, uh, and but I went to
I was dealing with something outside of paragliding totally, and he—he said something that has sat with me for a long time, and that in this town where I live, there's a lot of really high-end athletes, you know? It'd be like Jackson Hole or something, uh, Interwalk, and use a place like this where you know there's a lot of people pushing it really hard, and a lot of ex-US ski team and ex-Olympians and this kind of thing. He said, you know, I—I have a lot of these people as clients. I was kind of rude, and he said, "Yeah, because, uh, there's one of two ways that most of these people go, in my experience: drugs and alcohol, or death. And often, that one leads to the second." And I was really surprised to hear that, and he said, "Yeah, because they're being who they are has become the huckster, you know?
They—they—they—they chase speed their whole life, or they chase risk, and they chase, and it just—it's—it's like the whole base jumping, wingsuiting conundrum, right? Yeah, where do you get the next bit of adrenaline? You get a little bit closer to the terrain, and you can only get so close, when a little mistake is you don't have any. There's no cushion, there's no margin. We've erased the margin to zero, right?" And so he said that. But as you get older, obviously, you're not as good as at it, and that dries up, and so you either keep chasing it like until you huck something that you don't manage, you've reduced the margin to minus, or you bury yourself in other, you know, you, you, you, you try to, uh, you try to avoid it.
Like we were talking about with my friend, or with your accident, you know, the, the easy way out is just to avoid it, and often that's drugs and alcohol, and, uh, it was really interesting for me to, to hear that, you know, to this was quite a long time ago, this is 15 years ago, but it was a real kind of a wake-up call to me in a sense that, yeah, at some point here, you're gonna have to shift the lens here. At some point here, you're gonna have to make a different, you know, kids for us help that, obviously, because you can start shifting your perspective, but, um, I
Don't know, my question is here, but it's, it's, uh, no, I, I, I get your point. Like, I think what's interesting is, I, I think we, we're all different, and I think we're all different in pro athletes also, that they are some kind of monomaniacs, you know? Yeah, they wake up in the morning and they breathe paragliding, they eat paragliding, they sleep paragliding, there's like paragliding everywhere somehow. I've never been one of them, you know? Like, I, I'm, I'm not saying I have, I'm a balanced, well-balanced guy. I'm probably, uh, also some kind of psychopath, but I'm just trying to say that, you know, um, I have lots of interest in many different things. I love fly fishing and free, and free diving and sailing and mountaineering and skiing and friends and family and having a big party, and I really enjoy life, you know?
And paragliding is just a small part of my life, when for many top athletes it becomes an obsession, you know? And, and it's, obsessions are never good, you know? I, I always say you shouldn't go too much into extreme. And this is sad that we call paragliding, sometimes we call it extreme sport, which I'm not sure it is really an extreme sport. If you're not an extreme sport, you're not an extreme sport, you're not an extreme sport. It really depends on how you practice it, but I really think that, you know, for me, like, I've almost shifted already with sailing, with adventures, with documentary making, with other things. So, and I think that's interesting because we should all be curious because there are so many things to discover in life. This is not only paragliding, you know? Or not only skiing or mountain biking or, um, and, and I think that's very, uh, do we say liberating, you know?
Like, you can free yourself from, from an addiction or a super strong passion. Um, I think it's like when you are in love, you know? You, you can be in love, but you shouldn't be madly in love, you know? You should kind of try to keep control in a way, you know? Um, to not lose yourself on the way. And, and so I think that's a super, that's a very, uh, in a way, it's a deep conversation. It's interesting to have it with you because I think we are in the same place in life, like we are thinking about, okay, what, what is the next step for us? Um, and we've always been defined by what we do, right? He's the rebel athlete, he's the pro skier, he's the paragliding guy, you know? He's the guy who wrote that book. And, and, and then you become that person and you think that's, that's the only thing you are.
Yeah, but this is not the only thing we are, you know? We, we are also parents and beekeepers and whatever, what, you know? And I think we have, all of us, we have a lot of resources and we can go any direction and we're ready to at any time. And it's just about listening to, to the inner voice that says, hey, this is where I am now and this is what I want to do, but maybe tomorrow I'm going to go somewhere else and do something else and this is fine. And we should encourage it. Now, having said that, um, if you make a living out of paragliding and this is your income, well, then you should start about shifting a little bit there too, you know? Maybe investing on some real estate or starting a veggie garden and sell some fruits and, you know, like whatever it is, but try to be, to have to be, um,
yeah, to to be smart enough so that you don't get stuck, yeah
That's the rule of investing, right? You want to, you want to diversify. I think we have to diversify when we rely on our bodies; they're, they're not, they're not always going to be reliable, no.
No, but there's so much, there's so much that we learn also in those years of adventures and stuff like, you know, you, you're still a boat captain. You can also live a life of a pretty much a minimalist because you know what it is to sleep outside for days. You know, we have resources that we can use. Um, look at you, you've now, you have a podcast, you started a super cool competition in, in the U.S. You know, you have your, your community following you. You know, so I think this is, this is inspiring in a way. But, but it's, um, you shouldn't wait for the time to catch up on you. You know, you should be proactive. You shouldn't wake up one morning and say, "Oh shit, this is done. Uh, the coach doesn't want me in the team anymore, and now what do I do?
I'm not going to..." You know, you should prepare for this. Um, and, um, but, uh, if you look at paragliding, for example, yeah we could
muck it up like you did, you know? I mean, you had—you had all the history, you had all the lessons, you knew there—there's doubt. There is no doubt, and some things, things—sometimes things go sideways, you know? You're just having fun trying to learn a new sport and boom, yeah.
but maybe tomorrow I wake up and and I have another health issue, you know, or who knows, and I
This is this, and this is one of the things that really, um, strikes me when, when I was in the hospital bed looking at the ceiling, you know, and getting bored, and I remember that the clock was ticking, you know, like all day long, tick, tick, it's like bored us, but it's horrible, sorry, um, and, uh, and then I was like, "Oh man, what would I do with all those minutes?" You know, if I was outside, I would, I would enjoy life as much as I can, you know, I was really, I was really thinking how I would go for a, and then I will prepare a milkshake, and then I will do this and that, and it's, uh, it makes you, you know, it's, it, I was, I'm still, I'm starving, you know, I'm starving for life now, and, um, as soon as I can walk again properly, and I will, really, if there's one thing that I learned is that we have to enjoy every moment because time flies.
It was yesterday that I did my first Red Bull exhaust at 21 years old; it really feels like yesterday, and it feels Old, when I say that, you know, because you know you always hear your fathers or parents saying, "Hey, time flies," and it was yesterday that you were a kid and stuff, like a child and stuff. But this is true, literally, like time goes really fast, especially if you have a busy life and if you enjoy it, it goes really fast. So, so we, we should better make the best out of it.
That that accelerator, really, you really hit the gas too when you have kids. Holy shit, I just, yeah, I mean, if life went really fast before I had a kid, and now that I have a kid, it's just, you know, you watch them and you go, "Hey, you know," she said the other day, "I just want to be eight." I just, listen, kiddo, enjoy that. You'll be eight in no time. Yeah, yeah, slow down, especially
The beauty of it is that with kids, you go, you go back through your childhood. I had this discussion with, um, who was it? Uh, someone from the xabs who told me, "Hey, you, you'll see your kids grow and you will go back through to your childhood," you know? And you go back, go back through all those phases, you know? And, and this is true, I look at my, my, my kids and I'm like, "Oh, I always think, I, I used to think like this." So I used to do exactly the same, or you start remembering and stuff, and this is super fun to go back through, through this, and also quite interesting to see, obviously, times, times have changed, you know? And how we deal with kids and how our parents used to deal with us, you know? And how we try to do things differently and how, how, you know, open-minded we are and you know we're trying to do the right thing, and I think parents are doing, like, obviously their best, you know?
And but they, I really think they're doing a great job. Um, this is kind of a new generation of kids raised differently, uh, with a different, um, way of life, different mindsets than before. I think this is going to be really interesting to see them grow.
Yeah, yeah, it's a challenging time.
too, though with social
media and and, God, you know, I, I think in a sense our parents in some ways had it easier. You know, they can just—it's horrible—it's easier to let them free roam. I mean, you're out in the Azores, that's a pretty good place to let them, let them free roam. And so I, and we're very fortunate where we are here. You know, I just look, I mean, she can just do whatever she wants and just go outside, and really what she's got to worry about is cougars and bears. Where I live, in wolves, I
hope you know, I really hope that by the time they're, you know, 12 or 14, they're going to be able to do whatever they want, or going into, you know, being teenagers and stuff, that that the whole community understands how bad it is, you know, yeah, social media and the impact of screens on on their life and stuff, you know, I think, I think we're gonna, maybe we're gonna be lucky enough so that by the time they're, they're big enough to have a cell phone, you know, maybe we know more about the risk and the problems and the troubles that it creates, and then maybe we will, we will save this generation because this
we're training fallon
Whenever she sees, you know, Mom or Dad with a phone, she's, "That's bad." You're right, you're right. We're not allowed to have them in front of her anywhere, yeah.
Same here. Like, at my place, we—we don't allow screen during the week, and they have a—they can watch a cartoon during Saturday and one cartoon Sunday. That's it. And they watch it in English, so they learn another language. And since the very beginning, it was like this. The rule is super clear: no screen during the week, and that's it. They never ask for it during the week because they know it's
Not going to happen, and they're not going to be able to do it, and they're not
That's it, you know, it's that. But the problem is, we—we should, and I'm not saying that everyone should do like this; this is, everyone does what he wants, you know? Parents can decide for their kids, but I think as a community, we should all agree on something. Yeah, because for example, I mean, we're maybe out of the topic now, but—but you know, when—when they're going to turn 13 or 14, they'll say, "Hey, everyone in class has a cell phone, I also need one." But if all the parents would agree on saying, "Hey guys, no cell phone, no one has a cell phone," then no one will complain, you know? Yeah.
the problem
is like yeah
It's the peer pressure, right? We're right to where I started with it's been peer pressure is a big one. There's a—we're—there's a big movement here. My wife's a part of it, to you know, wait till graduate and not eighth grade, but high school, beautiful, get all the way through. And there's so much, oh, what? It's a safety thing. We didn't have any of that. It's not a safety thing, it's fine. They're gonna be fine, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, same here. We are, uh, we are really against it and and even I know like I'm not the best example. Sometime I'm, I'm watching my phone or this or that, you know? We should be very careful with what we do because they are, they're watching us and they're copying us. But um, yeah, it's challenging. It's, it's a challenging time. This is also why I, I kind of move to these doors, you know, like and and I think that's also why you're in the mountains. It's like we can offer them something that is slowly but sadly disappearing, you know? A life in nature, playing outside and you know, being a being outdoor enthusiast. You know, I love to be outside all the time and my kids, they go to swim in the sea almost every day. They get to see dolphins and whales, they go free free diving, they go spearfishing, fishing, whatever, you know?
And I think this is, this is what life is all about, uh, it's not behind the screen. So I think now there are amazing things happening behind screens, you know? We can learn a lot, uh, with AI now. This is a revolution. Things are going to change quite drastically in the, in the next five years, I think so. We, we should stay informed and stay tuned. But at the end, you know, life is out there in the mountains and in nature and that's where we should take them. Um, and and this is sad sometimes to see what, like the other day I was giving a speech, I was, I went to a classroom of 12 years old kids, uh, it was a, it was a few, it was not the other day, it was like a year ago, a year and a half ago and um, and we had a concession and and one of the kids, um, asked me and he said, "Hey, how do you do to get passionate about something?
Like, how do you find your passion?" And in a way I was surprised. I was like, "Guys, you're kids, you know, you should be curious, you should be trying things, you should be, you know, excited about life and stuff." But it kind of felt like I was telling them about paragliding and my passion for flying and stuff and they They didn't really, yeah. They looked at me, but they, if you give them the choice here, you can go flying this afternoon, or, or get on your cell phone and watch a YouTube thing, you know, whatever on YouTube. They'll probably have chosen YouTube, you know, in that, in that classroom. And that, that depressed me, like I was like, "Oh, this is not where we want to go," you know? We, we want to push us kids to just, to, to go and discover and explore, and, uh, and so, yeah, I think we have a responsibility, um, to take them with us.
And you said that life changes when we have kids, and this is true, it really does. But, you know, and you're doing the same. We, we took Jack on the crossing of the Atlantic when he was 11 months old, and we crossed the Atlantic with him, and we decided that we were not going to change our lifestyle because a kid was coming, you know? And obviously we did change it, we had to adapt, it was different, but, but still, what they want is to have happy parents, you know? And, uh, that's what matters the most. They want to see you happy, and you want to inspire them to follow their dreams and to do their thing and to find their own way and to do their own way and to do their own way, their passion. So, all in all, I think we shouldn't stop doing what we do, you know? And, yeah, I think, I think that's
Super important, Jeff Shapiro talked about that in one of his podcasts. I've had him on the show a few times, you know, that we talk about risk because he's done a lot of base jumping and a lot of wingsuiting and lost a lot of friends. And so this question is an obvious one, you know, what about what about your kids? And what about? And he said, "Yeah, but without this, I'm not who I am, and they need to, you know, we need to instill them with the passion, and this is what makes me passionate about life." And you know, I, I think there's really something to that. I think, like you said, you just we got to start thinking more about margin, yeah.
We have to change the culture, and this is really difficult, but you know, I think we are on the wrong path in a way. For example, with paragliding, and the contest, people are looking at numbers, you know, all the time, and they're like, "Oh, I don't know, who did the fastest triangle, the longest flight, the highest altitude?" And I'm part of the problem, I have to say, like when we try to break records and we give credit to that. You know, this is interesting, but we don't talk about—we don't talk enough about how much preparation it requires, and at the end of the day, is it really so important? And we—I know we had this conversation before, you know, about ego and stuff. We should leave the ego trip behind and say, "You know what? It doesn't matter.
Flying is about having fun with your friends, enjoying your time up there." But there is—there is way too much ego when you get on the takeoff and everyone flies and then—and it's—it—it feels like a race. You're looking at your friend, he looks at you, "Who is climbing better?" "Oh, I was higher." "I was—this was—that." This is ridiculous when you think about it, really it is. But this is—this is our human nature, you know, we always compare ourselves and we compete and we do this. And who is the winner? And the first and the second and the third and what? Who was on the podium? Okay, great, fine. But is it really important at the end of the day? Probably not, really, when you think about it. You know, it's not—it's—who gives a shit? Yeah, no, no. And—and you know what? Like, I'm a professional paragliding pilot, but I cannot tell you who was on the podium last year at the whatever competition, you know?
Like, and this is my job, it is. Because why is that? Because I don't think it's so important. And I really think that we should, you know, be a little bit easier on each other, you know? And just—and encourage, um, a different type of culture where we talk about enjoying it, enjoying nature, respecting the environment, uh, being there with friends, you know, flying to our own level, accepting that, you know, this is fine. You don't fly your D glider, this is cool, man. No word. We should really—and us, we have probably—you and I, we have a little bit of a—of a responsibility here because some people listen to our—to what we hear, and we don't listen to what we hear, and we don't listen to what we hear, and we don't say, you know, or—or the paragliding magazines or the paragliding variations. We have—we have to change the culture altogether.
I really think we do. And, um, and it will go through, you know, accepting that ego is bullshit and we should step aside sometime and just leave it aside and say, "You know what? Uh, let's focus on what's important and let's celebrate someone that says a metaphor for"
Life, right? It's, yes, it's that's that's life. And that's it is, it is hard to park the human nature and and who we are. And there's so many things, social media, ex-con, to all these things that exacerbate that chase. And that's what the therapist said when I sat down with him all those years ago, "You keep chasing, you're gonna, you're gonna end up on the wrong side of the coin," you know? So we, we must learn how to set that stuff aside. It's hard, it's hard to do.
Yeah, it is hard. It is hard, and uh, yeah, I don't know. Let's see what happens next, you know, but um, I want to, I want to grow old, you know? Like, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want another accident, really. Yeah, exactly.
That's, I mean, the the the end game is should be to become a cool old granddad and, uh, have some fun stories and have lived a very, very rich life that you can share, right? And so, yeah, I mean, I what you've been through, I think
it's
Is like I said, it's not a cheap mistake, but it's we need these resets of perspective, and it's just the same as when you get really sick, you know? I always feel like when I get a really bad flu or something, it's my body telling me, "That dude, you're, you're going too hard." So the only way I can slow you down is to get sick. You need some time in bed, relax, man. So yeah, well, you've had, you've had a hell of a journey, buddy. I appreciate your perspective and, uh, had your patience in a sense and, uh, I, yeah, I know you've been through the ringer and I'm sure there's been some pretty dark days, but thanks for sharing it all with us, yeah.
And I'm, again, I'm not gonna lie, you know, I've been through difficult times and I'm happy to share it with, with you and, and with, um, you know, sometimes I feel that it, it was not for nothing if I can share about it and people can hear it and maybe it can help someone somewhere, you know? And I, and I always, when I hear, because you know, I, I have to analyze some of the accidents. I do it with the paragliding federation, you know? And, and sometimes I get in contact with the guys who had accidents and stuff, and if I can help, I'm happy to help. So if anyone goes through really difficult time now or had an accident or, you know, need some support to get out of the, of the forest, as I like to say, you know, to, to see the light at the end of the tunnel, they can just contact me on Instagram or whatever, you know? I'm always happy to help.
So, yeah, just shoot. And, um, and again, you know, there's a, after the rain comes the sun, so Let's all stay positive, you know? And, uh, life is a beautiful thing. There's still a lot to do, and yeah, it's only going to get better from here, Tom.
You're a gem, man. Appreciate you. The community appreciates you. Can't wait to see you at the X-Alps. Uh, keep fighting for it, man, and uh, we'll
be in the Alps together, that I'm sure, like if it's, if it's in the race or outside the race, but we will spend time together there. And, uh, maybe we chat a bit more around the beer and talk about life in the good old times and, uh, and yeah, but it's, it's gonna be cool to see you, man. I mean, I missed you and, and the guys in the Red Bull family, um, the Rebel XL family and stuff. So it'd be, it's gonna be really cool to, to be there together. I'm looking forward, absolutely. You take care and you send a big hug to the family and, uh, keep on inspiring us with the, we do everything you do. Thanks, man. You too, buddy. If
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