Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I am back and feeling better and my voice is back, so good to be back on the Horn Hair Making Podcast. My guest today is a good buddy of mine who I don't see nearly enough, Debu Choudhury. He is a pilot from, he hails from Manali, just on the other backside of Beer, and you all know him from putting up big flights out there for years and years. He's been flying almost 30 years. He was part of the team with Eddie Colfox and Jim Mallinson and John Sylvester and Antoine and all those guys guiding out there, and that's where I met them the first time back in 2009, doing a trip with those guys, and then back again in 2011.
And Debu now lives in France with of his family and guides and instructs and does tandems; just got back from Columbia guiding down there, and I've been wanting to talk to him for a long time because of these awesome huge flights he's been putting up the last few years out in beer and had the record, lost the record, and had the record, got the record again and lost it again, but he's been putting up some really cool bivy flights and out and backs and just flying in that big magnificent incredible terrain. So yeah, we sat down and chatted bivy and flying and passion and guiding and more bivy and more flying and had a blast. So I hope you enjoy this talk with Debu, the legend of the skies in India.
Cheers, Debu.
uh that That took us several months to put together, but it's good to finally have you on the show. I'm actually, that's encouraging that we're both so hard to track down. I think that means we're having a good time.
Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. It's been a while, but like you say, I guess we're both having a good time and busy, but I'm really happy that we got it together and glad to be here with you.
You know, I was laying in bed last night trying to remember the last time we saw each other. Was it? Was it when I was in beer? Or we've seen each other since, I hope, right? That was 2011. It's been a minute. I
Think it was in Switzerland, wasn't it? In the bus, in that bus.
Yes, that's right. I was thinking, I was thinking...
the same last night. It was funny, I was like, "Where did I see Gavin?" It was like in the bus, uh, in Visp. I remember we had the evening together. That's
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, gotcha. In the, in the Niviuk mobile, okay? There we go. Yeah, cool man, cool. Well, I mean, it's, it's so fun to just think about you because it, it just, uh, it, it puts all these memories into my mind from those early days. I mean, I still chalk up all the madness that has happened since, I mean, those were my very early days, you know, where the trip to beer in 2009, the first one, and then the second one in 2011, you know, I still had the boat thing going very much. I mean, that was my business. I didn't have a lot of time to fly and just hanging out with you and Jim and Eddie and And John, you know, I did my first bivy ever with John. We flew back over the back to Manali and top landed and slept around a fire and got encased in the ice.
And he was just happy as Larry. I was completely frozen. And I thought, I got to toughen up. And, you know, yeah, here's some tea. You'll be good. But you've been doing some amazing routes and lines and stuff out there. And before we get to that, I just thought we should catch the audience up a little bit with you. You just got back from Colombia. I know you're doing some guiding; you're living in France now, but give us the background of, you know, the the quick hit resume of your your flying history, how you got connected with the boys, uh, you know, where you're from, and what you're what you're doing these days, yeah?
Uh, okay. So I guess, uh, I guess I start at the beginning. Um, well, you've been to Manali? That's where I grew up in North India, and uh, my mom's Italian, my dad was Indian, and I was, was born in Manali. And I think I first, the first paragliders I saw there must have been about '91 or '92, and already I was like, "Fuck, that look, that looks cool." And uh, in, uh, in '94, I, I, uh, got the chance to have a go on the school slope, uh, with one of the local guys who started it there, and uh, well, that was it. You know, that was the beginning of the... I haven't stopped since. Um, um, wow. And, uh, yeah, till, till about 2000, we, we flew quite a bit, but not that much, uh, because I would work in the summers in Europe.
Uh, I mean, I quit school in the meantime, which, uh, to go work to make enough money to buy to buy wings and shit. Uh, and then we had a nice community in beer. I mean, like, you know, beer is not quite what it used to be 25 years ago, but I remember the first season, I think it was '96, that I was there and there was maybe six of us and we spent the month flying there and it was very chilled. You know, we just fly in topland, we didn't really know about cross country and we kind of teach ourselves. And, uh, from there, um, the big change actually came in 2001 when they had a pre-world cup there and, uh, Xavier Murillo turned up with a whole bunch of hot shot pilots and we were like, "Aha, okay, there's a lot more to learn."
Ah, cool, which kind of motivated me to start doing comps, which, uh, opened up a whole new new page and, uh, and progression, I guess. Um, after that, I spent summers working in Europe and doing comps, uh, mainly, uh, and then I think I started guiding in about 2006, I think, when, uh, Jim and John and Eddie and all asked me to give him a hand and, uh, so that was the beginning of the kind of guiding thing and we had quite a few years. That's where we met, uh, I think. Was it 2009 you said you came
Yeah, and Antoine was there in one of the—I think Antoine was there in '09, and I flew with him quite a bit. And John and, yeah, I was—it was just magic. And then we came back in 2011 and we did that outside tandem thing. Do you remember that, uh?
That's right, yeah, yeah, we
brought a guy who did an article, and because you guys were kind of, you were contemplating getting up, you know, a kind of a business almost going where you were sky camping with tandem passengers, which I thought was really neat, yeah.
That was the tandem safari idea, I think. Yeah, that's when we did that. I've forgotten the name of the guy, but I remember from Outside magazine, and I think John and Eddie and all did actually run one trip. I don't think I was there; I'm not sure why I wasn't there, but they did actually try it once, uh, but I think the logistics and all was quite complicated in the end. So I think they just went back to, yeah, the guiding after that. I
Don't know if you remember it, I had a crazy crash there flying with John where I just totally walked away. It was a miracle. And but you guys had, you had it set up where donkeys or burros or something would bring up. It was there, it was that place we, we camped there that night where I crashed and, uh, and they had, you know, everything got brought up to us. It was amazing. Yeah, it's quite neat. I mean, it wasn't that far from the beer launch as I remember. It was 25k or so down the ridge, but it was, yeah, well that
Spot's become quite famous now; it's called 360, I bet. And, uh, yeah, like when we were there that time, we'd have the Colonel; he'd come up, remember, with all his staff, and we got like a full Maharaja kind of treatment and tents, and that was quite fun. But since then, I think around—I'm not sure which year—but a French guy called Robinson has built a super cool house up there, and, uh, and then he's hung—he's got together with the locals, and, uh, they've built like a campsite, and you can fly there and spend the night, and you know, rent a tent or whatever and get food. And, yeah, it's super cool place 360. Wow.
That sounds very sounds very alps, yeah.
Exactly, it's kind of like a, like, a Indian version of a Swiss hut.
Yeah, well you've been I, I mean, before, before we get into some of the crazy, awesome flights you've been doing out there, uh, I just, you mentioned a couple of things I wanted to get into. Are you still flying comps or how, how does your, how does your year get used up flying wise these days? Uh, I know COVID disrupted everything, but let's pretend it was a normal year.
Uh, so, um, basically I stopped flying comps seriously in 2012.
When I had a child, or my wife had a child, changes things, as you know.
And then we had another one. So I didn't really do many comps between 2012 and then 2018, I moved to France. And I thought, okay, let's give it a try again. In 2019, I think I did two or three comps, which went pretty well. And I was like, oh, I could get back into this. And I booked like six comps for 2020. Well, we all know what happened then.
yeah so
Uh, and then I did one last year. Uh, I did a pre-World Cup in Gourdon, which again went pretty well, and uh, I'm looking at doing the Worlds this year in May. So, yeah, one or two here just to see friends and and have fun, and yeah, just, you know, you know the vibe. I do miss it sometimes, yeah, yeah.
It's a good time, isn't it? Yeah, I interestingly, because you're, you're ahead of me with the kids, you know, my daughter's five now, so you, you've got more experience with this, but but one of the things that I'm, you know, just personally struggling with, I'd like to get your ideas on is just the time away, you know, that the, that's really the reason I'm not doing the X-Alps this year is, you know, I still love it. It was part of it's because I'm 50 and it's ridiculous, but, but, but I still love the race. It's, it's just amazing. It's such a great adventure, but the time required was, it just felt, it just felt kind of just way too selfish. You know, when you have, I didn't, I didn't mind it so much when she was a baby, Because when they were a baby, it's they really rely on mom a lot more. I didn't really feel like I was that integral to the whole thing, but now, you know, she's skiing and she's awesome and fun, and they change so fast.
And so, you know, I was just, uh, yeah, I did the Superfinal this year, and boy, that's a long time to be away. You know, it's a, it's a, I don't know, just I'm struggling with that, what, what the right balance is there.
It's a pretty tough one. I, I struggle with that as well. I mean, the last, the COVID years, in a way, it was a mess, but in a way, it was quite nice because I didn't have the choice. I stayed at home, so you know, I was, I was home for like two and a half years with not, not much traveling. And since last year, I've been traveling again quite a bit. And yeah, like you say, it's hard finding the right balance. I mean, I was in India for over a month and a half last October, and that was definitely too long for everyone, you know, even, even me by the end. I was, oh, you
didn't have the family there then? Because they usually go with you, don't they? No.
We went in April last year, the whole family, for a month. And then I went back in October to work and fly. And, yeah, the kids have got school and we've got chickens, so someone needs to be home.
And what about Flo? What's her approach to flying these days? uh
flow, since we had kids, flow kind of stopped flying. She carried on for a while after the first one, and she wasn't into it, and she was not really enjoying it so much and having some fears, so she kind of just slowly stopped. And she'll occasionally come and do a hike and fly with me these days, and you know, she hasn't flown for five years, but she can walk up a mountain and take off and fly off, no problem. So, but yeah, she's not so into it anymore at the moment, but she might come back. Let's see, okay, how
Old, are your kids now? 12 and 7. 12 and 7. Okay, yeah. Seven, still pretty young. Yeah, gotcha. Okay. Ah, yeah. So Debu, you've been—you've been putting up some pretty wild stuff on on X contest for the last bunch of years. And you know, this is—this is your place out there, but some huge lines over the back and big triangles. And there was—you were posting some videos. This was—this was that fall, was it? This fall that you were posting some videos of, you know, sky camping out there. And man, you look lit up. You look like a pilot that had been flying for a couple years. You were having so much fun. You were—you were obviously having a good time. So, I—I'd love to hear some stories from from Beer and what you guys are doing out there these days because, like I said, I was a newbie out there.
I think I did my first 100k ever and, yeah, in Beer, and I haven't been—been back. So, uh, that's all just kind of dreamy for me. I got to get out there and tap into it.
Yeah, um, basically in, you know, flying, I've been flying in beer since 1995, I think. So many, many years, and we always knew that the potential was big. I mean, we didn't go over the back for quite a few years because we were so scared of, you know, just looking at it and, uh, and I was sure that you, you could do 200k there. And I think in 2009, I did the first 200, 210 or something. And that was kind of an eye opener. And we were like, Aha, okay, we can keep pushing this. And that motivated me for a lot of years to go in spring for a few days and try and push, make it bigger and bigger. And then obviously, the years that you know, when you were there 2006, seven, When we started started exploring into the back, uh, thanks to people like John and people like Honza, who was there, he just threw himself straight into the back.
We're like, "Aha, okay, this can be done." And he was like, "Oh, it's great back there, you should go." We're like, "Okay." Um, so yeah, uh, and then pushing each year and uh, trying to get, trying to get the record bigger. I mean, for me, you know, I've been been flying almost 20, 29 years now, and I need to find things that motivate me to keep flying and and keep at it because, you know, and also doing it as a job professionally, you, it's, it's hard to find the motivation sometimes. And so for quite a few years doing, trying to do the big flights in beer, that was big motivation. Uh, and then obviously, I mean, it was funny with the bivy flying when John, in the beginning, I wasn't really into it. I'm not quite sure why, but uh, the last few years, it's been, yeah, like this autumn, we had such a good time finding new spots and new lines in there.
Uh, and then obviously, uh, with the record, we had, uh, I don't know if you've met Kubo and uh, Yeah, Kubo, you know Kubo. So, it was a big ding-dong between me and Kubo, and uh, I've forgotten his friend's name, and each year, you know, we'd break it by 1k, and then he'd break it by half a k, and I get another k. But uh, all of that's over this year. I don't know, you must have seen Philip's flight. He just, uh, blew us all out of the water, crazy, by doing a line that I would—I would have even thought that line. I'm like, "You do it, you can keep the record, I'm not going there."
yes let's let's paint the picture for the listeners who haven't been there because it's It's, it's, it's worth describing a bit. I mean, I remember my still, one of my most fondest memories was maybe the first flight I ever took there where we didn't go over the back, but I was following John and he just kept going to places where, you know, I had been, you know, a newbie mountain pilot, but in other parts of the world, and you just don't go to those places in other parts of the world, you know, it was, there was no wind. You just kept going. I mean, it was the first place that I had ever flown where you just fly where it makes sense with the sun, you know? And you just kind of forget everything else. You just, okay, that face is getting sun, we will go to that face.
And regardless of how buried and deep and, you know, and convoluted, uh, it was just oh, so fun. It was amazing to just dive into places where you'd usually be pretty puckered. Puckered in the beginning, you are puckered, and then, then you're, then you get used to the place, you know? Yeah, that's totally reasonable, that completely works. But you've got the front range, which is what is about 4,000 meters, and then the next one back is five, and then the big ones, right? Then you get into the sixes. Is that about right, more or less? Yeah.
That's, that's kind of right. I mean, that's, that's the beauty of beer for me. It's, you know, it's definitely on one of the top places to fly because the menu is so big. You know, you can, uh, you can play safe out front on the front ridge, you can go into the back just a little bit, or you can go, like you say, really deep in into the 6000s. And basically, the, the front ridge, uh, which tops out at about 442, and you've got about, I would say, 40k and 70k, it's about 120k of ridge, which, like you said, there's no real wind because it's the first big hills, big mountains before the flats, so there's no real valley wind. And, um, I think the, the mountains behind us so big that you don't have, you know, even when there's a strong North wind up high, it doesn't affect that.
And which makes it a great playground because you can, yeah, like you said, you can fly all over the place. There's no real lease side and it works super well and it's predictable and it's super easy to fly cross country there as, as you know. Yeah.
So the, the, the flight that Philip did describe that a little bit. Well, I'll put that up in the show notes. I know what you're talking about. Well, but what what did he do uh
So basically, before all the big flights that we've been doing, like, you know, the record 256 or 57, I think I did, I think 2018, that was the record till Philip blew it out the water this year. And basically, we'd be running on the front range, uh, past Taramsala, so going west as, but we before, we used to go about 90k west, but there's an army base and And Kubo started getting in trouble. So there's a limit of airspace, which is about 83K. And then we turn around and race back and then go to Prussia Lake, which is on the east side, and try and push a point as far there and get back to Bir. So kind of, you know, the second half is a little bit in the back, but it's mainly a big ridge run.
But Philip...
How far down? Is that getting pretty close to the Nepal border? No. Or is that still a long ways out? okay
Like when we go east from Beer, it's only about 45k east Pressure Lake or something. Yeah, ah, yeah, okay, yeah, okay, okay. But what Philip did was, uh, he went, uh, instead of going just west, he went northwest. So he jumped in the back and then jumped into the valley behind the main Dolada range, uh, and flew the whole Chamba valley. And actually, he was, he, when you know, I spoke to to him later that day, and his plan wasn't even to do a record; he was just going for a bivy. And, uh, he flew up there and it was a super good day, and he thought, "Oh, I can turn around and fly back to Beer." So, and when he got, when he came close back to Beer, he said, "Oh, I can just fly another 15k that way and I've got a new record." That's what he did.
So, and, uh, obviously he sent me that, he sent me his track as soon as he landed the bastard. And, yeah, rubbing it in, rubbing it in. I was like, "Well, what can you say? You know, it was an amazing, amazing line that he did." I hadn't even thought that line, you know, it was very engaged.
That's it. Is It is quite cool, isn't it when, uh, you know, strangers come to your home place and kind of show you, you know, I've had this dream of, you know, Chrigel coming here and just showing us what's possible because you get in your, "This is how you do it", you know? And and somebody can come along and go, "No, there's a whole bunch of ways to do it."
Exactly, yeah. Well, that's the very cool, that's the beauty of it, isn't it? That you know, you think, you think one thing, but then someone's like, actually, there's a lot more
Yeah, right, right. Um, so is your—is your push there now? You know, the kind of keeping the of passion lit is more of the bivy stuff, or is it still you're gonna chase Philip?
Uh, no, I think Philip can keep that one. I'm not going where he went. I got two kids. I saw some of the—I saw, I saw some of the footage of that day, and he's like, "Oh, this is just a little cold." He's at five, five, and he's on full bar, and he just squeaks through. I'm like, "Dude, oh."
It's just big, just big terrain. That's another thing that we should probably describe, you know, on the 4,000 meter, you know, you're totally in civilization the whole way. That civilization is just right in front, you know? That's why they have comps and everything else. It, it, uh, that rapidly deteriorates as I remember as you go back, yeah.
exactly start
to get into there's not a lot back there in terms of villages and people, I
Mean, when you do the first jump back from Beer, you've got, you know, you've got a while where there's villages and you can land. And then there comes a point where you decide to go in further, like, you know, even if you just fly to Manali, which is not very far, but it's still quite a committing flight. Uh, you're in some big terrain where you don't really want to go down; if you do, you know, hopefully you're fine, and you've got a long walk out. Uh, there was, yeah, there's obviously been quite a few stories over the years, years in Beer, of people landing in the back and walking, walking for a couple of days to get out and stuff like that. But yeah, it's, it gets pretty wild. Once the deeper you go, the more committing it gets, obviously, for sure.
What's, what's, uh, what's a line that you've flown or a bivy that you've done that, that you, uh, you dream about at night still? Is something that you're really proud of? You really, you still think, "Gosh, I'd love to do that again," or something similar, uh?
I did, I did quite a nice line this year. We all went for a bivvy together; actually, it was 14 of us bivvying together. It was quite fun; it was a party.
Whoa, wow! That's a sky party, yeah.
That's exactly what it was, and uh, we bivvied at this new spot I found on the back ridge, which is great spot, really nice, and uh, the next day, um, everyone was flying back to beer and I kind of thought, oh, maybe I'll fly to Manali. I wanted to go and see my mom and I knew the weather was bad for a few days. And I took quite a deep line inside and there's a peak, the head of the Manali Valley, which is about 6,000 meters. And my goal was to try and fly above it. I didn't quite get it. You know, I got to five, eight, so I almost got over the peak, but that was quite a spectacular flight. Yeah. That was pretty nice.
That's up there. Yeah. Yeah. Are you flying with are you flying with O's when you're doing that type of stuff or no? Is that too hard to get? No, it's
a bit complicated in India to get. And I mean, yeah, I've been up to six few times. I've never never had had too much of an issue with that. So I say that you do, you know, been very happy, sometimes too happy.
When I look back at some of the footage, I'm like, hmm, you're not quite right there. it
Right, yeah, yeah, you it, and it's funny how it affects people in different ways, you know? I, I tend to get really goofy and silly and laughing and exactly then I, if I get on the radio, I, people say I can't understand the thing you're saying, but in my mind I sound fine, you know? It's a, it's a weird hypoxia strange, it's a funny one. Yeah, yeah, I guess you guys deal with that quite a bit.
or do you
Really do not, not so much. Maybe you get to kind of adjust it to the altitude, yeah? I mean, personally,
I've never really had a problem with it, and uh, I mean, when we're guiding clients and stuff, we—we, yeah, we avoid taking them super, super high or, or going super deep. I mean, I did one flight with a couple of clients this year which was, uh, uh, fairly deep inside, and it was—it was quite stressful at points, you know? It was very rewarding for all of us at the end, but at points, uh, I think—I think they said, "You have quite a squeaky voice at points." I'm like—
you
should just do what John did. You, no one could understand him. It was just, I just, I just, I just learned after a while that you just had to follow him because he was so happy and excited. Yeah, no matter what he was doing, that he didn't make any sense. It was just, yeah, it's just
yeah buzzing John was definitely squeaky all the time. So yeah, when he was buzzing, he's like, I remember, couldn't get much of what he was saying.
I, I have to ask you, Debu, what's your approach to how do you guys tackle bivy in that area? Because I remember John telling me when he did the—not the group big flight all the way to Nepal with Antoine and everybody—that the film, but didn't he do? He did a huge solo thing, right, where he talked about, you know, basically he just packed an extra pair of underwear, that was it. You know, he relied on the communities for milk and food. You know, he just said, everywhere I'd land, they'd come to me and, you know, they'd ask me to share their little house and and they'd take care of him. And I mean, he didn't have anything. I'm sure he had some tea, because he's—yeah, no brick goes anywhere without no self-respecting brick because they were without tea. But is that how you guys kind of approach it now too? Or do you—do you go pretty light?
No, we got
you the bivvies we were doing, we were pretty kitted out. Yeah, we were pretty kitted out too, uh, especially as well. I mean, the last, uh, the bivis I was doing this year was mainly more in the back, kind of deep in and high up, so obviously no villages and no fresh milk coming up there. So, uh, so yeah, we were pretty equipped with, uh, with food and stoves and, you know, the usual, all the usual gear and
What's the status with InReach there now? Because there's always been, you know, I get a call every once in a while. Well, you know, somebody's disappeared in beer and they're trying to figure things out. And, you know, I'm quite handy with the inReach and know the folks at Garmin quite well. So I try to help if I can. But there's always been this weird thing with India and inReach. Yeah. You're not supposed to use them.
I mean, everyone's using them in beer, which is great. I mean, they've saved more than a few lives, as you know. But it's still kind of illegal to have any satellite device. I think I recently heard they were doing something to legalize it, but obviously the word hasn't gotten around and people have gotten in trouble when they have their in-reach in their hand baggage, for example, going out.
So they're still kind of illegal, but we still recommend all our clients to bring one. Just pack it deep in your bag and hope for the
best.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. So 20, I think you mentioned you've been flying 29 years and you know, things changed a little bit when you had kids and then changed again when you had COVID, but you just got back from Columbia. So you're obviously still doing quite a bit of guiding. Is it, if you had any periods in that almost 30 years of flying where it hasn't really had the zing for you, or you've thought about doing something else, or how have you been able to maintain the kind of passion over all these years for it
Yeah, that's um, that's a good question. I think the most, I think for the last quite a few years, I've managed to keep the zing, as you say. Uh, there was a point, like I was saying before, uh, before I started doing comps, I kind of got to a plateau where, you know, I thought, you know, in beer, we were flying to Darm Salem back and here and there, and we're like, "Yeah, we got this, we're cool." And then, like I said, a whole bunch of comp pilots turned up and we're like, "Aha, we're actually really slow."
maybe not so good, right?
So, I mean, the comps kept me going for, uh, for quite a long time with the, with the motivation and just, you know, you know, you know, when you do comps and, uh, you see some of these pilots, you're like, "There's still so much to learn." And, uh, lately, I mean, I did quite a few years of acro as well. Uh, so in the beginning, till about, about 2007, I used to compete, so that was quite motivating as well. And then, uh, yeah, trying to break the record and make a big flight, uh, a new glider or a new harness always helps. That keeps you, that keeps you going for a while here and there. And, uh, yeah, right now, it's probably BV flying and, uh, trying to do different lines, uh, big lines.
And also, what I like doing in India or in the Himalayas is, um, kind of trying to get above a peak, like not even, not even trying to, not even bothered about the case or the distance or whatever, but just trying to, you know, soar up a 6,000-meter peak or something, which is so, yeah, things like that. I always try and keep, you know, find something to, to keep the motivation up. Not always easy, do you
Do you fly? Yeah, you're—you're in the Grenoble area in France. Amazing area to fly. Is do you fly quite a bit at home as well?
Uh, when I can, yeah, yeah, I mean, uh, I work quite a lot as well when I'm here. So in the, you know, it's quite frustrating working in a paragliding school at times when you're on the school slope and it's an amazing day and, you know, all your friends are doing 200k and, but, uh, yeah, I still get to fly quite a lot, uh, whenever I can. You know, uh, what have I got? I've got a Zen O2 that keeps me quite motivated these days. That's a lot of fun to fly, uh, and also what's, uh, what's great here is what, you know, in India, when I was living in India, a lot of the flights, the big flights, I was doing, I was doing on my own and a lot of the big lines in Manali when I was living there, uh, whereas here there's a whole, whole bunch of friends who were really good and really keen. So the group, you know, the group effect is great as well.
So I've got a lot of friends that I go flying with here and, you know, whenever it's the big day, everyone's super excited and everyone's messaging each other, okay, okay, tomorrow's a big day. We're going to go here. We're going to, so yeah, stuff like that. Yeah.
How would you say, you know, if you could carve up your year, the flying portion and percent, how much is guiding? How much is teaching? How much is just personal? And are you guiding and are you, you're still guiding in beer, like with Eddie and those guys, or that's more just for fun when you're out to beer?
After the, I think I did the 2019 season, and then I missed 2021, obviously, like most people. And then last year I was guiding in Beer. Uh, I was guiding a vol biv trip, actually, which was, uh, which was a lot of fun. I just had two clients and we had a great time. We discovered new spots and, uh, yeah, I did some big lines with them. Um, I do a lot of tandems as well in France, you know? Okay, I think I did about 400, 400, 450 tandems last year, so that takes up a bit of time. Whoa,
Yeah, that's plenty. Yeah.
So, uh, yeah. And then, in between, whenever I can, uh, I took quite a lot of hike and fly at home, which is great as well, you know that, you know? And it's where there's not amazing for flying, at least you get to go hiking and, uh, and fly down. So, are you
competing at all in hike and fly, no.
No, I thought about it for a while and I'm like, like, ah, yeah, it sounds like. Because
there's so many in Europe now. They're just, I mean, every little site's got a new hike and fly race. It's really cool. That's a very burgeoning thing over here, but it's.
It's getting very popular in Europe. I mean, I thought about it for a while and I haven't, maybe one day, you never know, but I haven't got around to it yet.
Um, for those listening who are thinking about maybe coming to beer and and doing some bivy, what are some guidelines? What, what do they need to know? What's, what should they show up with? Anything different than how they would do it in the Alps? No,
Not really, but just, you know, just, uh, obviously have an InReach, or you know, if you are going to go out, maybe obviously let people know what your plan is or where you're going, and, uh, have in mind that, uh, yeah, you're not in the Alps. I mean, we've, we've managed to get helicopters out in beer for incidents in the recent years, but you know, it's usually the next day; it's not 10 minutes like in, in the French Alps. So, yeah, I suppose just, uh, just really looking at the risk versus reward over there and taking that more into account, and, yeah, maybe playing it a little bit extra safe, and, uh, yeah, I think just, uh, yeah, letting people know or doing it as a group or with friends, you know, I think that's, that's important.
How do, how does it work with water there? Are you carrying all your water? Are you, are you able to top land places? And there's enough snow and snow melt, I guess, in the spring there'd be plenty of snow. But is there in the fall? Yeah.
There's not, I mean, this year I, I think I, I found three or four new spots, and I found it quite amusing to actually pick a spot and then fly around for a while and check it out and say, "Okay, yeah, I can see the water there. I can see firewood there. Okay, this looks like a good spot. Let's, you know, it looks landable. Let's try that." I mean, I, I usually try and fly with at least two or three liters of water on me in case you, you, you know, you can still, you can spend a night with, with, with that. Obviously finding a spot with water makes it much more comfortable. So, yeah, I felt I was, I was having quite a lot of fun looking at little streams and this and that and figuring out a few of the times I got, you know, I was like, oh, that looks easy.
And then when you're down there and you're walking to it, you're like, oh, actually this is like an hour and a half away.
but uh, yeah, I guess that's all part of the fun, yeah.
It is part of the fun kind of figuring that out, and I, I often, I like flying around a lot because, uh, it usually looks so much better on first pass than it ends up being. And you, you realize, "Oh, I can't fly out of this place." You know, you've landed, and those trees are a lot higher than I... yeah, obviously.
That's one other the point, you know, you want to be able to take off again. I mean, we did end up this year landing and, like you say, afterwards we're like, "Okay, I think we're gonna have to walk over there," you know, a lot closer when when you're in the air. But, you know, we ended up walking a couple of hours to find a launch and stuff like that. How
Do you, uh, I would imagine guiding people on full bibs got to be a little stressful, especially in big terrain like that. How do you, um, how do you—what am I trying, trying to say? How do you make sure? How do you screen people before doing something like that? Are these always clients that you've flown with before?
or I mean, I just kind of
Look at their resume and, yeah.
I've done two, two of these before, uh, in Beer. And, uh, the first, obviously, I mean, we spent the first day top landing all over the place and just watching them and getting, getting a feel for their skills for that, because that's a big part of it. Uh, top landing, checking all the equipment, and then we'd go out for one night, uh, to an easy spot, like I think Hobbiton in Beer. I don't know if you know, you can't, you know, nice easy ridge, yeah? So, you know, do an easy night out, see how it all goes. Then we fly back to Beer, spend a night at the hotel, and then we, then we go out for two nights, you know, and just build it up slowly, slowly, uh, and obviously a little bit stressful getting people to toplan, uh, and taking off again, uh, but yeah, we kind of screened the guys, and two of the guys who I had before came back this year, so I knew them.
So, you know, it was once you know the clients and you know what their skills are, then it gets easier and you can push it a little bit more. But obviously, yeah, keeping, keeping the risk versus reward thing reasonable, you know? Then sometimes they're like, "Oh, we want to do this, we want to do that." I'm like, "Actually, no, no, we're going to keep it safe. You can come back and do this on your own if you want, but"
Right, yeah, right, right, right. Keep it between the lines, exactly. That's what San always says. Uh, you must have a good story or two from over the years of something crazy that went down, anything you remember from just that was a wild one? Either, either that pulled you, pulled it off, or maybe that didn't go so well, but either way, uh...
Story about me or about someone else?
Yeah, any either one.
I've got, I've got a good one from, uh, from last year actually. Uh, I'm not going to mention names; let's keep it
This is exciting. All right, here we go. Um...
So um, I was in Manali in spring and a good friend of mine was in beer and we were supposed to meet and I was like, "Oh, why don't you fly to Manali? You can come and see me." So he says, "Yeah, sure, that'd be fun." And so I was following him on the in-reach and I can see, you know, and I was out hiking that day or something and I was, you know, occasionally checking and I'm like, "Oh, looks like he's going for it today." I'm like, "Doesn't look like the best stay, you know, the clouds are quite big, it's..." And then at one point I see his track go off course completely. I'm like, "That's no good, that's no good." And then I see him, you know, he's still at four grand but the mountains around are at five and a half. I'm like, "He's fucked, uh." And I see the track go deeper and deeper and then I see the track stop and so, yeah, I'm shitting myself and I'm like, "Oh, and uh..." Half an hour later I get a message on the inreach because he had me on his inreach.
He's like, "Uh, I'm fine, uh, landed on a glacier, uh, but I'm okay, but I don't know where I am." So I'm like, "Okay, uh, I know where you are. Um, there's a village 7k down from where you are, the, the only village in the whole place, uh, you might be able to walk there, uh, are you okay?" And then I get a message back, he's saying, "Oh, yeah, by the way, I landed on a glacier and then I fell in the river, uh, all my, my gliders in the river, but I'm fine." And I'm like, "Okay, can you, can you walk out of there?" And he says, "Okay, I'll try." And then 10 minutes later I get a message, he says, "I tried to walk out, it's very slippery, I fell back in the river, I'm all wet again, I'm outside." I'm like, "Don't move, dude." I'm like, "Don't move, you know this is wild terrain back there, uh, we can see what we can do." And um, so I spent the whole afternoon trying to organize a chopper, which we got, we got the chopper together, uh, but it was, uh, but it only picked him up the next morning, uh, at 10 o'clock.
So he spent the night wet at 3.8 in the bottom of a glacial valley and with lots of bears and shit around. So yeah, it was full on and basically what had happened, um, was that he tried to get over a cold but the base was low so he thought, "I'll go in the cloud." So he went in the cloud, got disorientated, ended up in this tight glacial valley and was trying to fly out of the valley, valley and obviously when he got then he thought, "Okay, I'm gonna land. There was places to land before, but he tried pushing it, and obviously when he got near the, there was kind of snow bridges over the river and bits of river open, and I think he got near the place where he wanted to land, but the wind was coming down the valley with the cold, with all the you know, it was a katabatic so he landed on the edge of this snow bridge and got pulled into the river drift.
Oh god, yeah. And the river took him like 100 meters down where the holy smokes, where the river went back under the glacier. It was like a black hole. And he managed to get on the last rock just before going back. You know, it was just a horror story.
Oh, my God. That's just the worst case scenario. It's amazing. He got out of that.
Yeah. Very lucky, man. He's a great guy. I hope he doesn't mind me telling this.
There's no names, who's gonna know? He knows lots of people, know anyway. Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, but it was a very good lesson for, you know, that, yeah. Don't go in the clouds at five grand and try and get over calls. But, yeah, super, super lucky. So he left his, uh, wing and his harness in the river, obviously, and the helicopter got him out, and it was all fine. And a week later, Philip, Philip decided to go and pick up the harness because it was a nice harness, he said. "Oh, can I keep it if I go and get it?" That sounds like Philip. So he flew, he flew BV, landed at four four five, walked down with ropes, went into the river, picked up the harness, climbed back up again, had spent the night, and flew out with the harness.
No,
way. What? Are you serious? That's unbelievable. Oh my gosh, that's... I love that dude. Hey, did... but the wing's still there. The
wing's still there, yeah. It was, uh, oh.
Anybody listening? You want to go get away?
Philip was like, "Oh, it was in the river. It was fun."
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, toast, but
Uh oh, my gosh, yeah. And uh, and then Philip, as he's walking up, he showed me a video. He sent me a video. He's like, "Oh, I saw a bear. It was really cute." And he showed me the video's big, huge brown bear, like 20 meters away from him, and he's like, "Oh, look at his cute ears." I'm like, "Dude, you're insane." When
We were doing when we were doing a bivy with Antoine in the Sierras all those years ago. Uh, Orio Fernandez was with us and bombed out one day. We all had our days, you know, as you do, and he bombed out one day and came across a couple of pretty good sized bears and it freaked him out so bad. That was the end of his trip.
He didn't think they were very cute. He's like, we
Don't we? Don't get these in Spain?
I'm done with this, okay? Well, that was a good one. How about, do you got any more? That's—that's what I wanted. I want to hear stories from beer, but...
That's or other places. That's a good one. I can't, I can't, I can't come up with one off the top of my head. That was the I'm
visualizing getting pulled off a snow drift, going in the river, and going into a, you know, know getting it was, oh, flushed underground. That'd be terrifying, yeah.
That was, uh, that was pretty scary. I mean, uh, yeah, over the years, I mean, beer has, I mean, you know, a lot of them are horror stories, which I don't really want to get into.
There are a lot of horror stories, but
Uh, yeah, it's getting—it's gotten really popular beer. I mean, like, you know, in October there's five, six, 700 pilots coming through. Uh, so yeah, not quite like what it was in 2009, super busy. Yeah, um, even
Even then, I mean, I the the I I have distinct memories of just the the launch I thought was terrifying. You know, you had you had these, you know, pilots that you know I I we don't want to name a country, but we could name a country where they would show up flying, you know, open class gliders, prototypes and stuff, and they had 10 hours, you know, was the rumor. I don't know if that was true, but you know, they barely knew how to launch and fly in comp gliders, and you know, one instructor for 40 pilots and stuff like this. I mean, I don't know again that this, I don't know if any of this was true, but it was, it certainly looked true on launch where you're just going, "Oh my god, I gotta get out of here," so I don't see any more of this stuff. It was terrifying, yeah.
It was kind of like that again this year. It's a little bit better; the the quality of pilots gone up a bit, but yeah, it's super busy because I guess it's, uh, one of the best places to fly in October in the world. There's not many places like Colombia. I was, I was pretty shocked in Colombia. That was pretty full-on on launch. Yes, yes. So yeah, I mean, uh, there's been over the years lots of, uh, interesting rescue stories in beer. Some, uh, some some good ones, some not so good ones, but, uh, yeah, I can't, I can't come up with one right off the top of my head. The one I just told that was the best one so far, I think, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I mean, it must be interesting to do this with, with clients and stuff too. I mean, I, I still remember flying around with you guys and, for some reason, I got put onto John and just, just following him around in that terrain was, was really, you know, I would just have to encourage listeners, you know, if you haven't done, it's not really part of our culture in the States to get guided, you know, we don't, it's really much more of a European thing. You know, when you climb, when you go climbing, you get a guide, when you go skiing, you get a guide. And because I have friends who are guides, I, I really, I love that. I just love going with a guide that, you know, they, they, they know the terrain. It's just, they, they, they bring you to the best places.
And that was the first time I had done it in flying. And again, I was, I was, I was pretty new, but just following you guys around and, and having the stoke and, and also just having that little bit of care and concern. You just felt like you were in good hands, but quite an eclectic group, you and Antoine and John and Eddie and Jim, my goodness. I mean, you couldn't ask for more more eclectic group, I think you know, I heard the evenings were more exciting than the days
Yeah, they were good times, oh.
Man, yeah. Um, we lost John recently. How is that, uh, how has that affected the dynamics there? Obviously, Legend, um, yeah.
But John always was, and always will be, one of, you know, one of the legends, not just there, kind of all over the world, really. I mean, he, he'd stopped coming for quite a, you know, at least three, three seasons before, before he passed away last year or the year before. Uh, so yeah, and it was, it was a shame because I would have, I would have loved to have seen John once before he left us. Uh, but, uh, yeah, obviously everyone around there still talks about John and, uh, you know, and, and some of the lines and some of the flights and his style of flying, obviously, you know, it's still, still legendary and seat of the pants, yeah. And, uh, yeah, we definitely missed the squeaky voice, yes.
Oh, yes, yeah, totally, totally. But Jim and Eddie, are they still spending quite a bit of time there? Uh, I mean, since I
Haven't seen Jim since 2019. I recently... Eddie came out this year in October. Um, I mean, they stopped doing the guiding thing. Jim stopped quite a few years ago, uh, and Eddie kind of was doing a little bit, but now he's... he did some again with us this year, and I think he's back into it. So, uh, cool. Yeah, I haven't seen Jim for a couple of years. I'm quite looking forward to seeing him again. He's cut off his dreads, by the way, so it's going to look like it
Oh my gosh, I can't imagine I'm actually getting him on the show here soon. Yeah, I haven't
seen him without dreads, so yeah, you'll see
That'll be weird. I don't know if I'll recognize him, yeah.
But, uh, but yeah, I've been working a lot the last few years with, uh, with Stefan—you know, Stefan, Stefan Bernard. Yeah, yeah, he's great as well. We, we get along really well, and, uh, it's been fun guiding with Wicked Comp Pilot. Yeah, he's fast.
Yeah, he's really good, very. He has a lot more discipline than I do, man. Same, I could like, I gotta learn that from him. Yeah, that's really that. I'll see you, still got a cool crew going there. Yeah, yeah, we
Got a good, good team, so still so fun. What
After all these years, what are your kind of, you know, do you do you think it's important to kind of keep having personal goals? Do you have personal goals with your flying and how you approach your year? Is is it mostly just works to kind of sapping it up, and yeah, when you can
Yeah, kind of, uh, I think it's important to have have some personal goals with your flying, like we talked about before, to keep motivated. And I mean, what the thing I really love about flying is that, you know, you never, you never stop learning. You know, you're always getting better. I mean, I still feel that each year I learn new shit and, you know, I improve on certain things, or you find one aspect of your flying that you you think, you know, you can work on that and improve that or the efficiency or the lines. So it's just, yeah, it's a never-ending game, isn't it? Which is what I love about it. Do
you find you get more conservative as the years go by? And if so, do you weight that to any particular thing? Is it the kids? Is it your wife? Is it age?
Sometimes, yes. Or
do you not?
Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. Know, sometimes you're like, "Oh, actually, I'm gonna just take it a little bit easy here," and sometimes you do shit and you're like, "Fuck, maybe I shouldn't have done that. What am I doing?" Yeah, but again, again, that—that's the beauty of it, you know? That's where we—that's where you get the kick. So yeah, I guess, I guess we're all addicted to it, and you know, we get our hits different ways.
Uh, where will you be guiding this year, uh?
This year, I'm going back to beer in October. Um, I haven't got—I've got a pretty busy summer, actually, so I don't think—I don't think I'll be doing any guiding. I think I'll be doing mainly some teaching and a bunch of tandems. I've got my whole family coming out from India, so, uh, yeah, pretty busy with that. And then, uh, back to beer in autumn, and I think I'll be going to Columbia again. I like that; that was a lot of fun. So, yeah, not—not as much guiding as before, but, uh, yeah, I try and mix and match it with the professional side of it because I think—because I've got friends who just do tandems all year round and they just burn out, you know? They don't want to fly anymore, which is understandable, sure. So, I try and mix and match it a little bit, which keeps me motivated to, you know, do a bit of teaching, a bit—bit of tandems, a bit of guiding, keeps it fun.
You know, the time that most people go to beer is in the fall, you know, this kind of last couple of weeks of October and usually the first week or so of November, and then the monsoon starts. But it seems to me, and I've never done it, but it seems to me that the real season is the spring. That seems to be when you guys are grabbing the big stuff. Spring
is the time I like flying in beer. It's, you know, it's when you get the big, big days. Obviously, it's—it's a bit less reliable than October. I mean, you know, mid-October through to mid-November, you can fly pretty much every day and it's good, whereas in spring, you might get a front come through or it might storm quickly for a few days. So, you know, you—but when you get the big days
more downtime yeah
when you get the big days you know the days are obviously longer you can take off at nine and fly to six which gives you nine hours of flying whereas in October you You know, it's maybe 10, 10.30 to 4, so less. The thing that's better in October, though, is it's better for going in deep because in spring, all the back mountains are covered in snow. So it's obviously working a lot, you know, it's a lot slower and difficult to maybe get as high and obviously more committing with all the snow around than in autumn. So there's, you know, plus and minus points for both seasons. seasons, but personally, I, I like April, April end of April is, uh, yeah.
Yeah, it looks pretty magic then. The, uh, how about some hints for warmth? You know, when you're flying at that kind of altitude and, uh, obviously it can be really cold. I remember how cold it is there when you get tall. Uh, yeah, how are you—how are you keeping your hands warm? How are you keeping your body warm? What are you guys using, uh?
well body body and you know have a good pod obviously for the bottom half and uh uh, yeah, big down jackets, you know, for the body I've been using one of those, you know, like a big expedition jacket that does the job and makes a nice pillow as well when you're busy and for the hands, uh, it's a lifelong mission, I guess, trying to find the right solution. But, uh, last year I used those, um, uh, you know, the Monchon things, the things that you put the over sleeves, which are over
mitts, over
mitts, which are really kind of annoying because they flap around and do this and that, but I found they're actually the most efficient. You know, they do actually work and keep your hands warm, so once you figure out a technique to make friends with them, uh, then they do work. So I've been using that, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I find that that's kind of the best of it, you know? Chrigel put me on to—he just uses his small gloves—and then they have those, uh, bassist roush, however you say. It's a Swiss company; they have the over mitts that are really more, you know, they're not the kind that you tie up, yeah? You know, the down sleeves that you tie up, and so they're not as gangly on launch and everything. But, but then you're—it's kind of hard to use your hands because when you take it out, you've still got the smaller gloves on, so you can't, you know, it's pretty hard to go to your instruments or to
yeah to
use anything but it's but they're warm i
mean I've been, I've been taken off with the over mitts on your, on your forearms, you know, when you fly and fly with normal, with normal buses rush gloves, and then when you get called, you bring him up and close them, and that, that was doing the job pretty well
That works pretty well. Cool, Debu, uh, always terrific. It's good to see you, man. It's been, it's, it's nice to, nice to see you here. It's been too long, yeah, since the bus in Switzerland. So we'll, we'll have to catch up in, in real time here and, and do some flying together. Yeah, and congratulations on the big flights. That's been a hoot to watch, man. I've been, I've been building a house, I've been flying that much, so I get my kicks off watching guys like you go and have some
Great, yeah, yeah. Um, maybe see you in May? You're coming to the worlds in France? You
know what, I, I completely hammered my spot, man. I had a spot on the team, and in Monarca, I got a little too hungry in the end. I was leading through really good comp, yeah, and then I blew it. I had two days in a row where I got a little too hungry and, uh, thought, "Oh, I'm really gonna stomp it." And and so, and I, I missed the world's team by a couple points, so I was, uh, yeah, so not that's not the plan right now, but I am, I'm gonna go to the Brazil World Cup and the Spain World Cup right now, and there's still a chance for world if we get another, another slot or somebody doesn't go, you know, maybe, but
okay. I'd love to see you. But, uh, yeah. Anytime you're in, in France, hit me up. You come and stay. We've got a nice place, plenty of space. You're welcome.
I'd love to. Yeah. I'd love to. Hi to the crew. Hi to Flo and the kids. Nice one. Thanks bud. Yeah. Nice chatting with you. It's been a pleasure. Cheers Kevin.
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