Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Sat down with Ellie Egger, who's from Austria, and she's in the X-Alps this year as a rookie, but it isn't her first X-Alps. She supported Simon and actually Aaron both, I didn't realize that, but in the 2017 race, and supported Aaron, who was his kind of main supporter in the 2019 and 2021 race, handled all of his navigation strategy and mapping and getting the launches and all that kind of thing. She's a mapping expert, and that's what she studied in university. She's also a paragliding instructor and been in the game since the tender age of 14, I believe she said, and she's been at it ever since. So she's getting ready for the big show herself.
She'll be competing this year as a rookie, and so we talk about her training and preparation and what she learned from doing the support, and then we talk about her kind of her mapping expertise and navigation, and she has the tech totally dialed, so that's certainly not one of her worries. But we talk about it all. We talk about competition, flying, and she was down here for the Superfinal, as I was, and we recorded this here in Mexico just a few hours after I had the chat with Aaron that we put up last week, and hopefully you've heard that one, some great stories there. But it's obviously because we're here in Mexico, there's a little bit of sound in the background, but for the most part, it wasn't too bad. So I don't know. I don't think that'll cause any problems, but wonderful chat. It was a great gal, and it was fun to kind of get into her brain and dig around a little bit with this massive endeavor she's undertaking.
Please enjoy. Cheers.
Ellie, welcome to the Cloudbase Mayhem. I don't get to do these live that often. That's really kind of nice to do, but we just wrapped up the Superfinal, crazy 10 days of racing, and I'm sure you're excited to return. I'm excited to get home and get back to training.
Yeah, for sure. Thanks for being here, first of all. Yeah, we had a really nice time here in Mexico right now. Tough flying, but I really enjoyed it. And yeah, for sure, going back home in the snow, some ski mountaineering to do. It's really looking forward to it. And
you were just telling me before we started recording, you're near the Dachstein. You're near the start of the race. That's where you live?
Yeah, exactly. I'm living quite on the foot of the mountain at Ramsheim Dachstein. Yeah. And so I'm like in the center of the mountains. It's really awesome there. So a super nice site for flying, ski touring, running, hiking, biking, whatever you want to do in the mountains. It's awesome there. For
those who don't know, they know the name because you're competing in the X-Alps, the biggest race in our sport by far, coming up this year. And you've supported Aaron twice. I just had him on the podcast last night. That'll be released here shortly, doing the memory lane thing with Aaron. And you supported him twice, which we'll talk about. But give us a brief rundown of your flying history, how you got into it and how long you've been doing it and how you got involved with Aaron and supporting and all that.
Actually, it's quite a funny story because I'm usually from the south of Austria, so from the flatlands more or less. And so it was for hiking holidays with my family. And there you could do like one kind of place a day, so some paragliding for free. And I was like, I want to do it. I want to do it. And I was 14 by that time. And so my mom said, yeah, okay, you can do it. And I, yeah, first time getting in the air completely hooked. So it was awesome. And then I was like, I want to go on. I want to go on. And mom was like, yeah, yeah, you can do whatever you want, but you have to pay for it yourself. And with 14, it's kind of a bit of a challenge to earn money. Can you fly at
14 in Austria? Is that, what's the legal, is there a legal age or you do it?
Yeah, you can start with 14, but you only get the license with 14. 15 or 16. Okay. Yeah. So, but I could start it with the courses. And so actually I started to talk to the flight school owner, Anna. And I was like, I really want to do it, but I don't have money. And so she was like, okay, you can work in the office for some hours. And so you can do the course. And that's how I got into paragliding and like doing some office work and doing some flights and doing some office work. And that went on for two years till I had finalized my license. And yeah, finally now I'm still in the same flight school working as a paragliding instructor there now. Really? Yeah. Actually now I even got part of it. Like now I'm on the bossy side.
You're
a party owner?
Yeah. Wow, nice. So really nice. So this is your job. Yeah, it's my job. Your job is
flying. It's flying. And instructing in tandems?
I don't do so much tandems. I have a license, but I think that's something the boys can do. Yeah. And I enjoy mostly cross country. Flying and teaching. And I just started with safety trainings. So like doing the SOEs. Oh, okay. Teaching. Teaching, yeah. Oh, okay. Over the
water? Over
the water. We are based in Italy at Lago di Idro. Yeah. Yeah. Really, really nice spot. Much more quiet than Lago di Garda, which is just close by.
And good vertical? I haven't heard of this place.
You have about 700 meters above the water. Okay. Not bad. Yeah. It's actually pretty nice. Yeah. And the thing is you drive up by car. So you're kind of independent. You don't need the cable car or anything. Oh, wow. So that's... What's the
name of it?
Lago di Idro.
Oh, okay. Cool. That's something to put on people's map. I hadn't heard of that one.
Yeah. It's kind of secret spot still. Yeah. But it's super beautiful. We
really lack SIV sites at home. We really lack, you know, gondolas and that kind of thing. Yeah. We just don't have the infrastructure that the Alps does. But it's been tricky. We do a lot of towing.
Yeah, okay. Over the
water. But it's expensive and it's tricky. So it's... There's so many places in the Alps that are good. But I've done Garda a bunch. But I didn't know about this one. We'll have to check it out.
Yeah. It's pretty nice because there are less people. But yeah, you have to kind of organize with someone because you need a car or a driver. Yeah. So if you just go alone, it's easier on Garda. Or if you want to train acro and you need like, I don't know, how many meters above the border. Yeah. You better go to Garda. But for... No less. I restock. It's super nice. Have
you found by teaching it, has it helped your own SIV, your own abilities? Does that... Does it really correlate?
Yeah, I think so. Because you have to think twice about what you're doing and how to explain it. And each time there is some new students asking a question kind of differently. And so you have to rethink about stuff and aerodynamics. And of course, you have to do all the maneuvers by yourself to be able to teach them. Yeah. And so it's a good training because, yeah, with the competition gliders, which I normally fly, you get kind of lazy of doing all this stuff. Yeah, no deal. So in the last two years, we started doing SOEs for the German and the Austrian League for the competition pilots. And so I did the same stuff. So you're doing it on
CCC wings. Yeah. Yeah, cool.
So that's pretty nice. And it keeps you good in the air. It keeps
you tuned up.
Yeah. We
needed that this couple of weeks, didn't we?
Ah, yeah. I've never
seen so many hits.
Never before. I mean, there was an
incredible amount of mid-airs, but also just a lot of hits.
Oh, yeah. I
saw one of the Navy pilots going out to the Monarchas the other day. I've never seen a hit like this. His wing just turned into a rope.
Did you see that one? I did the orange one. I saw an orange one. No, it was the same. You know the
team one that we all had, the green and pink, or teal and pink, whatever. And I can't remember. It wasn't Tanguy or Tim. I don't know who it was, but the glider just... He was right in front of me coming out of a thermal, and his glider just turned into a rope. And then when it came back out, it was like a bomb going off. It was just, holy smokes. I'm going over here. But yeah, there was a bunch of them. We don't see that much with the CCC gliders these days. I don't. In comps, you just don't see people taking hits that much, but man, there was a lot this week. Oh
yeah. Rough air. It was quite rough air. But I was actually happy that we are all pretty good pilots, because if you imagine a lower pilot's level here, that could have ended worse.
Yeah. You know, I come down here for the Monarca every year, and there have been Menarcas where there are a lot of incidents. Mostly reserves. Thankfully, very few accidents. If people throw, they're usually okay. But there have been comps here that are just mayhem. And it was really like that. It was just interesting to have it like that in a Superfinal. I wouldn't have expected that.
Me neither. But it was like, on the first few days, I was like, oh my gosh, what's going on here? There's a rescue. There's a rescue. So, okay. I just don't want to get a problem in here. Totally.
Totally.
So, instructing. Is that... Will you keep that going right up until the X-Alps? Or are you going to cut and just do nothing but training? You've got a lot of experience with the X-Alps, supporting Erin a couple of times. I'm curious about your path between now and the race.
Actually, training, I'll do side to working, because as I'm kind of self-employed, it's more easy to manage. And I'll spend a couple of weeks down at Ito for teaching, so it's always more or less four and a half days teaching and then two and a half days off. So, but even on these days, I can do the basic training I'm doing right now. So, I have a full plan, training plan.
Do you have a trainer?
Yeah, my supporter. Okay. She studied sports, and so she made me a full plan. And now she's like, each day I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do. She's like, why didn't you do that?
It's nice to have somebody to be accountable to, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And
I was like, you have to do nothing today.
That's most of the time what she's saying, because I'm like, I want
to do
something, and then the weather is good, and I just want to run up the mountain, and it's like, rest day.
Rest is really, I've learned that. Rest and recovery are really important. More than you think, you always think, ah, I need to be doing more, I need to be doing more, but you got to give your body a chance to recover, too. Yeah. How did you tie, well, before we get to that, how long have you been flying comps? So
I started competing in 2016, and so in December 2016, I went down to Portugal in South Africa for the Western Cape Open. And that was like my first big international competition, 100 pilots, and so many good ones, you know? And that's where I met Aaron, because I was down there with Paul Guschlbauer and Stefan Gruber. And they were competing at the Next Edition 2017 in Ixalps, and so we were kind of talking to Aaron, and I was just, yeah. Were you
thinking back then that something that you might want to do someday, or not yet? That wasn't really on your radar?
Not yet. It was too far away, like kind of all these guys flying so good and so fast on the mountain. And I was just like happy to kind of get to know them and to learn and stuff. And yeah, just being there, I kind of got in contact with Aaron. And so like on the windy days, one day they took off, and Aaron had like crazy, crazy a lot of ballast. And so he was kind of lifted and sit back on his ass more or less, and he couldn't stand up again. And that's how I got in touch, because I just helped him up. And so down at the landing, he was like thanking me. And actually at this time, I think we ended up drinking some gin tonics. Nice.
And so we kind of got in touch, and yeah, it kind of ended up being a really nice friendship. Cool. Yeah. And so as I was in Graz studying at that time, I also was in contact with Simon, and he asked me if I would help him with navigation in 2017. And so actually it was two and a half times in Ixal. And that's how Aaron found out that I'm kind of good with navigation. So that's why he asked me in 2019. Or actually, he asked me in 2018 if I
could help him. So I
want to be his supporter in the next edition. Because
he's not very technical. He would say that about himself.
No, I wouldn't really call him technical. No,
he's more fly by the seat of your pants kind of guy.
Yeah. No, he's a lot of things, but he's not the tech guy. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He would say that first about himself as well. Yeah. Let's talk about that. Mapping. That's what you studied in school?
At university. Yeah. Yeah.
I went to technical college for programming first, and that's what I went to school for. And then at university, I studied geodesy. It's like the science of measuring the earth. So everything about GPS, navigation systems, and maps, his software. So whatever you can need for planning a route. I'd love to
see your Odie screen. What do you fly with?
I don't know. I actually don't have an Odie. Not on the drift. I wouldn't even know where to put it. It
fits. I've got my Odie in my phone. Okay. It works like portrait mode. Yeah. I didn't think it was going to work, but it works. Yeah. Portrait mode. It works pretty good. Okay. So what do you use?
I mostly fly with XCTrack.
Okay. Just phone?
Just phone.
Oh, okay. And
I have like a XTracer. Yeah. Very well.
Okay. And I'd still like to see your screens.
It's fascinating. Yeah. So things like, I would imagine things like airspace are just piece of cake for you. Natural. Natural. Yeah. Oh, that would be a dream. It's not natural for me at all. I'm always just, oh, terrified. I find the side, I've never hit airspace in any of the X-Alps and a lot of people do, but I use FlySkyHigh because I'm an Apple, but the side view is a miracle, you know, where you can see it. Yeah. Then it's no problem. Yeah.
But that's what they did really nice with XTrac. Yeah. Yeah. It's a side view and you know, okay, if I just, I can just glide under and so that's pretty, pretty nice. And yeah, but I know what you're talking about because during the last X-Alps, I was like calling Aaron on the phone, hey, you need to go right because there's airspace just in front of you.
Yeah. He had some dicey, that one by three meters, you know, it was either, and then the second one when he hit where it was basically, okay, I go in the trees or I hit the airspace. Yeah.
But actually that was, you couldn't say it's my fault because actually there, there's a, the airspace isn't there because like from the legal side, this airspace can't go into the mountain. That
was tough.
And so it was me telling him, you were right. As long as you're staying close to the mountain and when you're lower than 600,
you can just And we've all flown underneath that airspace. I've flown that Locarno airspace so many times like that. You just stay 50 meters off the deck and then you squared under it and that's how it works. Yeah. That was really frustrating.
Yeah. That's how it is. And the problem was that I, I knew it because I'm like instructor. Yeah. And I'm working a lot with airspaces and I didn't even think about that. They just made an, a TMA running straight into the mountain because that's illegal. Yeah. It's incredibly
frustrating. Yeah. So
when, when Aaron was like on the phone saying, yeah, Ellie, I hit the airspace. I was like, no way. How can you, you stayed in the mountain? And so I was like, all right, check, send me the track log. I'll take a look at it. And so I checked the track log and he was really like swooping through the trees. Wow. As low as kind of possible. And it was like, okay, but you're within these 300 meters above ground, so no problem. And I told to, um, the race director and he was like, yeah, that's a good argument. And so I thought, or we thought, okay, it's fine. And so the next day we got the penalty, so that was really frustrating. That'd
be heartbreaking. Well, the, the, you supported him in 2017, which he, you know, he had the bad, the bad wheel. And, uh, you know, had, was having a great race, but had to, had to bail out. I remember hiking up with you guys, it was a day two after the first terrible day with all the rain. And then day two. Yeah.
And he was
barely moving. Yeah.
He was, he was like in kind of crutches more or less. So I was actually at that time in Simon's team, but there were like so many people going up with Simon. So I was like, is it all right if I just go with Aaron? And they were like, okay, just go. And that's how I ended up. Oh,
I didn't know.
I ended up going up with Aaron. And at that time I was not really fit. So it was really kind of frustrating because he was like jumping more or less on one leg and he was still faster than me.
Note to self, get, get more fit for the next one.
So that's where I recognize. He's a beast
uphill. Ah,
he is. The steeper, the faster he gets. Yeah.
It's, he's really a gazelle going up hills. It's remarkable. Um, so the, the. Yeah. One of the kind of main things you can share with the audience about being a supporter after doing those two, I imagine one would be that you must feel much more prepared going in as an athlete, just knowing how that world works, because as we know, doing the race, it's so critical. The team is incredibly critical and there's, they're kind of behind the scenes, but they're doing a lot of the work, a lot of the really exhausting work, uh, at least in my experience. And so. But for me, it's, I don't really see what they do that much. So I know they're doing a lot because I land and boom, this is where you're going next.
And I don't have to make any decisions. Uh, but what, what was your role? How did it evolve over the two different, uh, campaigns and what, what were the, give us some highlights and low time, you know, what are the, what are the really great things about it? And what are the hard things about it?
Yeah. So. As you said, like the support. Yeah. Like, I don't see it, I don't see high-quality men or girls behind the scenes. You never, you never see. But you really shouldn't underestimate the work that you're doing, because it's one thing that like everything is prepared when the athletes is back on the ground, like, um, dry shoes and then new clothes and something to eat, something to drink, a place to sleep where you can stay without being pushed away by the police and the knife. But what I mostly did for Aaron and I was like the navigation guy and I did all the weather checks. and like searching for takeoffs and planning all the routes and like optimizing, okay, it's better to go up there, fly there, top land again, hike up again. So he more or less got like, as soon as he landed, he had, he was working with the Suunto watch and I just had the app on my phone.
So I uploaded the track on my phone and he just had to sync it and he had it on the watch, like instant. Yeah. So you were planning
the next launch. You would look at the weather and the wind and the aspect and okay, it's going to take him an hour and a half. So we want to be west facing, whatever, in the afternoon and you'd find all that.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I also made like a plan for the day with like flying wise. So where are the good thermals, which route we're going to take or what he's going to take. And like more or less, I would say the brain behind so that he just can focus on flying and running. And more or less, I'm doing the
same thing. I'm making the
decisions. And so that was actually one of the best moments in 2019. When he was just landed, I said it like, okay, that's your next track, just go. And he started, he just went. And like after, I don't know, 45 minutes, he called me and I was like, everything's all right. Yeah, yeah. I just understood why I'm going there. It's a super nice plan.
So it was one of my highlights during the race because it just, it just did it. He didn't even think about it. And then after one hour, he realized why he was doing what he was just doing. Right. So it must
be really rewarding to, you know, you must be under a lot of stress and, you know, a lot of pressure and to put them in the right spot at the right time and that kind of thing. And when it works, it must be a thing of beauty. You know, he's crushing, you know, I'm sure there's a lot. I mean, I distinctly remember, you know, that there have been many times in our campaigns where we're just having one and it's so fun. And then, you know, the last race, we had the worst start ever and nothing was going right for the first three days. And you start to feel, at least for me, I started feeling not bad for myself, but bad for the team, because it wasn't their fault. They weren't making bad decisions. It was just, I wasn't putting it together. And, and it was just, oh, it's heartbreaking.
Yeah. When it just doesn't go right, but it doesn't go right for everybody at some point. Yeah.
Sooner or later, you're going to make mistakes. And that's what you, if you have a good team, I think that's what you can minimize quite a bit. If like the, the team works and it's, that's like a bunch of individuals put together under, yeah, small space in the camper for two, three weeks under pressure. So you have to find people who, who stand it, because it's one thing to be out having fun together, but if you have to work together and yeah, as you said, there are times where, nothing's working out. So everyone is getting grumpy and you have like a cow and the other one is like, needs everything to be ordered like properly. So it's kind of, you have to take care of whom you're going to take in the team.
So
talk about that. How do you, how do you have your team put together already?
More or less? Yes. And how
did you decide, how did that pan out?
Actually like my main supporter, Nadine, she's like a really good friend of mine and we kind of, we
kind of tick
the same way. So we don't need to talk much. We know what the other is thinking about. Yeah. So that's. And
she's a pilot or not a pilot?
Yeah. Yeah. She, she's a pilot. She did a couple of hike and fly races in Austria and yeah, it's just always super a lot of fun for her. So will
she be charged with what you were doing for Erin?
Or will you,
will you do that on your own? Cause you're so good
at it. No, I can't. Like during the race, I want to think as less as possible because I think the more tired you get, the more tired you get. The worse the decisions are you're taking. So I want to have someone taking this part for me. So it's mostly going to be Nadine and probably also Julian.
He's, I'm still working on it, but he's, he said he's may, might help me from home. Like doing the navigation. Doing words? Um, no, during the, the exhaust.
Ah, yeah.
Yeah. I'm doing like the navigation stuff and checking the weather and stuff from home. So that will be pretty nice, but let's see how it works out. So we're going to test it in, at Easter. We do like a four days exhaust simulation kind of thing.
And he'll feed you the weather and that kind of thing and the route and all. Oh, interesting. But do it from home. Yeah. Okay. In the, in the race too. He wouldn't be with you. Yeah. Ah, okay.
Now that's the plan for now, but let's see how it works out. So
will it just be you and Nadine as a team?
Ah, no, it's going to be another girl, Verena. She's like osteopath and a really good friend of Nadine's. So actually, um, I don't know her that well. Yeah. But she's, Nadine's age, she's really nice. And actually the supporters are the ones spending time with each other. I'm somber anyway. Yeah,
that's true.
And so that was— they have to
get along. They have to
get, have to get along. And that's what I asked Nadine, that she picks someone she won't have in the team. So it works well. Yeah. And the other one is, I worked with him together on Aaron's team before, Daniele. Um, he's coming as well. And Marius, he's going to be like the supporter of the supporters, like taking care that they have everything they need.
And how did you decide this year, okay, now I want to do it. What was the, what was the kind of, was there a stepping stone that you wanted to reach when you were, when you were supporting Aaron? Were you, you know, in the 2017 race, were you starting to think about it or not till the 2019 race? And were you, how, how did you decide, okay, I've cleared whatever hurdles there are to, I think I'm ready. I think I can do this.
I started thinking about competing in, already in 2017, like being there on the road and seeing like, hey, that's actually what I want to do. I want to hike, I want to race. I want to, want to fly and want to push my limits. And then when Aaron asked me in 2018, I was kind of like really proud of myself that I got asked to be Aaron's supporter. And so that was pretty nice for 2019. And after 2019, like during the race, I was like, okay, in 2021, I'm going to sign up. And then we like hiked the night, the last night on 2019 edition up to Peru. And on this hike, Aaron asked me if I'm going to do it again in 2021. And I was like, of course I will do it. And then afterwards I was like, I had other plans, but now I said, yes, so I'm going to do it again.
As a supporter. As a supporter. Okay. Yeah. So that's how I ended up doing it again in 2021. And after 2021, we decided that, we're not going to do it again together. So that was for me. So, all right, now it's my time.
Yeah. Okay. And tell me your age.
I'm 27.
27. So you started flying 14, got more into it when you got your license. And then in 2016, you started competing. Yeah. Okay. So you've been at it 10 plus years, 12 years.
What's the most, what's the one thing about the race that makes you the most nervous right now? Wind. Wind.
Yeah. Because I'm a very lightweight person and that's the thing I'm most worried about that, because I'm always on the weight when I'm flying all this hiking fly stuff. Yeah. And if it gets windy, it's just the worst you can do. Being too light on your glider and not enough speed. And it can get windy. You've been to Wallace, so. Yeah. It can get
very windy.
Yeah. So that's the thing I'm most afraid of. Okay. But let's see, I'm talking with Niebuhr and we're trying to find a solution for that problem.
Yeah. So
let's see.
The climber's awful nice.
Ah, he is, but. It's an amazing wind. I'm half the climber too now. Yeah. But it's, yeah, the weight range is 60 to 78. And with the hiking fly equipment, I'm at 62.
Really? Yeah. You are tiny. Yeah. That's tough.
Yeah. Just a little leaf in
the wind.
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, my supporters have to be fit because probably they're going to have to carry some ballast for me. Yeah. Even during the race. So that's, but actually that's throwing contra there as well because, oh yeah, it's better to fly even heavier, but during exhaust you sometimes have to land at places you better don't have any ballast at all. Yeah. So. And
a lot of the real moves are made on the really light days. Yeah. So it can kind of work out in your favor that you can load up when you need it, when it's gnarly. And on, but when it's, when it's just those little milky stuff in the morning where you're just trying to get an extra couple K it's nice to just be light and go. So yeah, we'll see. I know Gaspar was way underweight on hit one of his campaigns. And I remember him being really nervous about it. And in some ways it didn't work so well but in other ways it really did. So in the end it was kind of, it's all right.
But nothing else, not results. Or what are your, what are your goals for the race?
I want to be able to come home and say that I did a good race.
Yeah. And you just gave it your all. Yeah.
And not to hurt myself. And I want to still kind of be friends with my supporters so that we have a good race all together. Yeah. Of course it's, it's a race. I'm a competition person. So I also wouldn't fly in Superfinal. So, of course I'm going to do my best, but the focus isn't on the rest; of it's more about my own personal goal to do a good race and be every day at night to be able to say, okay today I did my best and I did the best out of the day.
This is fresh in my mind. Cause I just talked to Aaron last night with the podcast but you know, some of his stories were one of the one of the most impactful nights of my life was being in Monaco at the end of the 2015 race. And we were all sitting around Paul and Aaron and Gaspard and I think Antoine. Antoine was there, Ferdi. And it just was this round Robin of near death experiences. You know, Andra almost died his supporter flying with them kind of near the end. And just all of us had, you know, we were all on cloud nine we were in Monaco and it was amazing. And, but then hearing all this was a real kind of I went to bed that night thinking, wow we are really insane people.
And you saw it firsthand. In 2017, the weather was pretty wild. And then 2019 was lovely. There was not much risk there, but and then 2021 was awful and really scary. Does, I've heard you're a very aggressive pilot and you're, you don't, it doesn't seem to bother you too much but it's, how much does that weigh on you?
For sure. It's something on my mind because that was after 2021 race with Aaron. I was like kind of healed from doing exhausts because during that race, I don't know if Aaron told you but it was like 13 times, he almost killed himself. He said that last
night. I properly wrecked, I mean, I properly crashed seven times. Wow. You know what I mean? Not, they were all, two of them were, they could have gone I could have been dead. Two of them were really scary crashes. And the other ones were just stupid, you know fly on the wall, kind of blown, you know, just funny. But I, I'm like a wombat. I can hit really hard. I'm okay. But you know, the Alps is soft grass. And if, you know, if it'd been pavement it would have been something different but two of them were properly just, what are you doing? It's crazy.
No, that was for sure the hardest thing for me or being a supporter because like you're down there and you know, okay, you send him up there and of course you say, okay you have to take the decision if you take off or not. But then you're sitting down there in the car and you know okay, now he's in the air and it's probably, you know, not safe anymore. And so even after the race, I woke up like in the middle of the night dreaming of thunderstorms coming and I'm not able to reach Aaron. And so like nightmares because it was really like a lot of tension. How do you
guys communicate? Is it just WhatsApp or something?
WhatsApp or I'm on the phone directly. Okay, just call him. Just call him. And I think I'll go with Zello. It's like a - Yeah, Zello's great. Zello is great. That's what we use. Yeah. And I think that works pretty well because you don't want to take another radio and another stuff you have to charge and it's just playing in the ass. So, and actually each year the mobile connection is getting better and better. So, and in case I'm really kind of in a hole I can do like offline navigation. I think I'll manage that one.
The, do you, I mean, I imagine because you were a sport I didn't know it was three. So Simon and Aaron the first year, and then, and then Aaron for two. At this point, you know, I'm rewinding my own clock, you know getting ready for the 2015 race on my own. I had done no other hike and fly races. And so I was really feeling very overwhelmed about December, about now. Are you, are you, are you pretty calm about it?
I think I'm kind of calm about it because I've seen it with Aaron, like inside out. So I pretty know exactly. What's going to happen in the race. And like all the preparation it's, it doesn't change so much being a supporter or an athlete for me because I did a lot of work with Aaron in the preparation time as well. And so I kind of have like my schemes, okay. I need the camper, I need the maps. I need the, which apps I need on the phone, like the watch what kind of equipment I need. It's like kind of known stuff, which can be good but you also have to take care. You don't forget something because it's so natural. Yeah. But yeah. Have you done
a lot about their hike and fly racing? Zero. Zero? Yeah. Like
competing myself, I did none because I signed up for a couple of them but then Corona kicked in and then it was just that timing big because like when I was an X ops, it was an X ops. And then my focus was on competitions, like normal comp fly. And yeah, sometimes in summer I have to work as a paragliding instructor as well. So that really doesn't go so well with competitions. Right. Because when it's good weather, you should be working. So, but, yeah, so as an athlete that it's did not, but yeah, I was supporting enough.
Do you think, is there any, let me try to ask this tactfully, but I'm not even sure exactly what I'm trying to say, but is there any different pressure on you because you're female and it's been, you know, There hasn't been a history of many females in the race, more lately, and people are thrilled with it. Do you put any more pressure on because you're female, or do you think there is any other outside pressure?
I think there's the media and social stuff, they're more interested in you when you're a girl, because it's kind of fancy, outsider, whatever. So I think that's the more pressure you have as a girl, and to be honest, as a girl you are kind of disadvantaged physically, you have to be honest with that one. You can train as much as you want, I'll never be able to keep up with Aaron, for example. Not
many people can.
Actually, good point.
Neither can I, it doesn't matter how much I train, there's no way.
I think I can keep up with a couple of guys. But there will always be someone stronger. And I think it's important that you don't pressure yourself too much, because I think that can get dangerous, if you try to do more than you're capable of. So yeah, maybe there's more pressure on us girls, because everyone is looking at us, and actually there are a lot of people cheering for us, but there are also some voices, why don't you do that? You're a girl, you won't be able to finish it anyway. Really? Yeah. People have
said that? Yeah. Or you feel that? Both.
Really? Both. And then it's, I'm kind of the person, so if you tell me it's not going to be possible, I'll show you that I'll do it. Nice. I
like it. I like it. I'll show you.
So that kind of motivates me to kind of show people that they're wrong.
But, yeah. I'm good. I'm curious how it will be, because I have the feeling that girls are more social, even with sharing, even like now before the race, like with Celine, we're just talking, and that's super nice. And it's, I think for girls, easier to share, because we're not so, yeah, competitive, maybe? Yeah. Interesting. We can cheer more for the others. Yeah. But even now here in competition, it's like, I can share so much with so many different people. And when I talk to other guys, they're like, they never talk to me about kind of, I don't know, tactical stuff or whatever. And for me, it's just natural to talk.
Share everything. Yeah.
Interesting. Yeah. I had never thought about that. Because it is a world of, you know, what is it, 90 something to less than 10. The percentage is incredible in this sport. Yeah. And it's, I've often been fascinated with just the emotional world that you, that females must have to deal with in this sport. When it just comes to that, it's just a numbers thing. You know, it must be interesting for students to show up and have a female instructor in a sport that's just so dominated by men.
Yeah. But it's actually pretty funny because our school, we have mostly female instructors.
Wow. Yeah.
So it's like, for example, it's like Malene, Anna, me, Johanna, Karen. We are just girls teaching there. So it's pretty funny when our students go somewhere else then and they're like, there are no girls anywhere.
And because they're so used to here, there are a lot of girls in our schools. And so that's actually pretty nice.
And it's pretty, how many females are in this one? Is there five?
Five who are like permanently. Yeah, I listened. So maybe four? Four, yeah. It's Kinga, Celine, Lovie, and me.
Which is great. I had a really interesting, in some ways scary experience with Laurie and Fiche. She and I and Ogi were battling it out to not get eliminated. And she sent me this beautiful text. I was coming off the Grimsel that morning. I had taken a completely different route. After getting to Fiche. And it was that really strong north Fern day that Chrigel went forever. And I couldn't get back into the Rhine. So I ended up landing down by walking all the way up the Grimsel the wrong way. And so I made a bad move. But I couldn't do anything. The wind was so strong. I couldn't get north that day. Or sorry, south that day at all. But that was the day or it was two days after Laurie had had her incident in Lermus.
And she sent me a text. And she said, you don't have to race anymore. I'm going to stop. And I mean, keep racing. But you don't have to worry about the elimination. I'm going to stop. Thank you. Because I was really stressed about it. And I caught up with her at Fiche. And I gave her this big hug. And she had this look on her face that I'll never forget. It was just destroyed. I mean, you could tell there was a lot of relief because she was done. But she was also just, you know, whatever happened in Lermus must have been terrifying.
I was actually kind of surprised when I saw her on the list. I was too. I wasn't expecting that after like being in the race and seeing
her. Yeah,
I was very surprised. So tough girl to come back. Tough girl. Yeah, tough
girl. I mean, it's so fascinating that everything depends on the weather. You know, in 2015, we had so much wind and so many accidents and so many retirements. But it wasn't terrible weather. It was just windy. It was just a lot of wind. And then in 2019, you could launch anywhere. It just didn't matter. I mean, it was still hard weather. We had that awful heat wave at the end.
Super stable, super hot. Like Erin said, it was
a sauna. It was miserable. But it wasn't dangerous. You could launch anywhere. So wind is your enemy.
I think so, yeah.
Yeah. Will you try to do some hike and flat racing before? The little ones before this race?
No, I'll do some trail run competitions. Okay. Are you a runner? I hate running, but I like hiking.
But that's something you can train, I was told. Yes, yes.
And you said you like ski touring.
Yeah, a lot. I think
that's a perfect training tool. Yeah, it is. And you're in a good spot to do it. Yeah. Let's talk about instructing. So you've been an instructor now for how long?
I started in 2014.
Oh, a long time. Yeah. For people listening that are inspired to maybe someday be an X-Alps pilot or just to be a good pilot or to come to a Superfinal, that kind of thing, what would you tell them as an instructor? What would be the things to focus on or things that you've seen that the couple of mistakes that people should avoid?
I think that it's important that people stick to themselves and that they stay in their own learning zone, that it's good to not always just stay at their comfort zone. If you always just stay on the same mountain, turmoiling for three hours, you won't learn anything. So you have to go a step ahead. But I think it's important that people don't do two steps at once, like that they get afraid, that they get fear. Because it's just too much for them. So one step after the other. And always stay curious and try new things and other stuff. And it's not only about going for cross country flying, but it's also going to SAO, doing some maneuvers and just get more confident wherever the wing is.
Because that makes you more calm in the air when it's getting bumpy because you'll have it under control. And so you just expand your comfort zone. And so you get better and better. And I think one of the most important things is to talk to people because you can learn so much from other pilots or friends or whatever. And if you ask kindly, nicely, there is no one saying, no, I won't tell you that. No, not in this sport. This doesn't exist. No, it doesn't exist. And I think that's important. It's really important just to share and to talk about good things and also about bad things. Because everyone had this one collapse where you were shaking when you landed.
But it helps if you talk about it, if you analyze what was going on and also think about how you could have done it better or how you will do it better the next time. So that's for me. I'm doing it personally all the time when I, okay, I had a huge collapse. What could I have done better? Okay, not eating. I was eating a bar in the middle of a five-meter thermal. Okay, that's something I can improve.
That one seems pretty easy. Check that box.
Oh, yeah. But I needed to try it twice to really understand. It's not a good idea.
Okay, it didn't work out once. You try it again. Yeah. Yeah, it goes.
Has instructing, I've always thought that I've always really stayed away from making paragliding my job in a sense. I mean, I guess the podcast is a job. But, you know, tandems or instructing. I'm always afraid that it would zap me of a little bit of the passion for it when it becomes my work. Has that ever been an issue for you?
I was thinking about that a lot, actually, because I was thinking the same. Like, my initial plan was, okay, I'm doing like the university, doing my master's, and then I'm going to work as a geometer or civil engineer and just work for fun in the flight school for some days or weeks in the year. But then I kind of worked more and more in the flight school. And I'm not only teaching, I'm also doing all the administrative stuff and working in the shop and also doing like the human resources and all these organizational stuff. And I realized that I really like it. That's also seeing the stuff behind, that it's not just the one guy standing out there with the radio telling you what to do, but all this stuff you need to have before on
to learn. You make plans, okay, how to get better, how to teach better, how to improve the skills of your students, but also of your teachers, because of course you're doing your instructor license and you have to like do this every two years. You have to do some courses to kind of hold your license. But I think that's often not enough. You really have to keep on working on yourself that you stay up to date because the gliders are changing. The methods. The methods of teaching are changing. And that's something really interesting for me to try to have a good quality in our school.
Will Gadd told me something one time that's really stuck with me over the years that he, you know, famous ice climber and famous pilot and just an incredible athlete. But he told me that when he sees people coming to this sport from other flow sports, so free riding and skateboarding and surfing, you know, he doesn't worry about that. He doesn't worry about them too much. But when you come from non really flow sports, see climbing or, you know, when you're not, when you're not dealing with a lot of gravity, I guess climbing, you are dealing with gravity, but anyway, flow sports versus non-flow sports that he, he worries more about them. As an instructor, do you, do you have people come? It strikes me that paragliding is attractive, especially in the Alps when you see it everywhere, that people must come to your school who don't really have any athletic ability.
They don't have athletic background and, or any experience with flow sports. You know, they might be more academics and just want to go flying. Is it, do you have people come that just really shouldn't be in the sport and do you, does that, do they just naturally go away from it or can you help steer that ship?
Most of the time they find out by themselves in the first few days that it's not really their sport. It's pretty
quick like that?
Normally yes. Because that's the good thing about paragliding. And you have at first on this trainings hill, you have to walk up on your own and that's where, where you're kind of selecting.
No, but actually it's maybe once a year there's someone you have to tell, maybe it's better you don't go on with the sport. But that's always pretty, pretty difficult because I personally think that paragliding is getting safer and safer. And that in the right environment, I think you can do it pretty safe. But there are some people who shouldn't go flying on their own because they have no clue about the weather. They don't know where to go. They don't know anything. But I think that's good that there are like flight schools offering like even like these trips going, I don't know, Italy or in our place where we have just like two instructors, even with pilots having the license.
But they're only flying once a year. So you can't expect them to, to be like really aware of all the situation. So I think it's good that there are like these kind of scenarios where they can go flying, have fun, but in a safe environment where someone tells them, okay, you can fly now. Now you wait. And so there, it's, I think always difficult because it's, paragliding isn't like bike king. If you don't do it for five years, you really have to start again from the beginning and you have to do it on a regular basis to be safe. That's for me, for me personally, what I think. So yeah, when people say, okay, I'm starting paragliding like the first one, two years, I'm mostly really, really motivated.
But then often there comes this kind of, ah, no, maybe I'll do something with my girlfriend or I've got kids or whatever. And then you realize that they're flying less and less. And that's the point where I think it's become dangerous because they think, okay, I'm a pilot. I have a license. I know what to do. But if you don't keep on doing
it. Yeah,
you got to keep your skills sharp.
How do you feel about competitions with your students? Do you encourage them? How do you feel about competitions in general?
I think competition is a perfect playground to learn really, really fast, a lot of stuff. But for sure, you have to be able to tumble at first. Yeah. You can go to a competition because it has to be automatic that you find the tumble. So you have the capacity to check what the others are doing and see the others in the tumble. And because that's what we're doing here. We're not concentrating on our instrument, where's the best climb. We're concentrating, okay, where are the others and trying not to bump into them and see them. Okay. I don't know. This orange light over there has a better lift, so I'm going there. But if you're still focused on, okay, which break do I need to... Yeah, it's a little
overwhelming. Yeah.
So that's what I meant with one step after each other. Because if you have like a pilot who did like his first two hours flight, he's not ready for doing a competition. But on the competitions, you learn incredibly fast because you have so many people you can watch. You can see, okay, they're leaving at 2,500, whatever. They're reaching on the other side. Okay. How high can I go? How much altitude do I need? How much speed I use? And that was for me like, oh my God, I can use so much speed and it's so much fun. And
the wing just hardens up. Yeah. It's just getting better. I've
never used
so much full bar ever. I mean, I've done a lot of, not a lot, but I've done quite a few World Cups and high level comps in the last few years. And you use a lot of bar, but this one was phenomenal. Yeah. You were using a lot of bar. Yeah. Full bar. There was never any three quarters bar. No. It was just full. Full
bar or
you're thermaling. That's it.
Yeah. And then we were back at communication because if you have like 100 pilots or 50 pilots on the smaller competitions, there are so many sources of information. And because that's really cool about paragliding because you never stop learning. And you can be like Honore or Fabrice or Philippe. Being on the podium here. They are still like trying to improve themselves. Still. All the time. All the time. They still don't have it
totally figured out. Yeah. They never will. Nobody ever will.
And that's maybe the most fascinating thing for me in the sport. But yeah, competitions. I think it's really good for everyone to do some competitions because yeah, the whole environment and getting faster. Being like really efficient in the thermal. If you're always alone, you always think that you're good because you don't see anyone else. Yeah.
I'm crushing it.
Yeah. If you're the only one, you'll always be the first. Yeah. Right. But there you have, get like a mirror and all right. Very eye opening. Yeah. Yeah. And that's always funny if like cross country pilots come to the first competition and they think like I am.
Oh, I'm good. I'm good. I'm the local hero at home. Yes. Yeah. We'll see. Enjoy eating that dirt day after day. And it still happens after all these years. It's amazing. So my last article, I do this column every other month for Cross Country Magazine and I kind of wrote a letter to the rookies. I don't know if you saw that, but you're not really a rookie in my mind because you've done the supporter role now. But what would you say? You rattled off a whole bunch of things. We were last time with, you know, the technology and the maps and the maps. You know, the van and this charging and the equipment and all that. But you've got a microphone here and some of the rookies will no doubt listen to this show. What would you tell them in terms of, you know, little checklist of things that are, you know, these things are really important to be thinking about now in December?
You know, you've got six months.
I think it's pretty good if you have like your flying equipment ready pretty soon that you have like glider harness. The whole setup you use at the race as soon as possible. So you feel like 100 % comfortable with it and you know it inside out. And the more you fly, the more you use it, the better. And it's the same with all the navigational aids you're using. You have to do it before. You have to train it. Even like planning a route or like bombing out somewhere and somehow figure out how to go home.
Nothing will go as planned.
Never. So that you just have to do before. And it doesn't matter if your supporter is at the other end of the world. It doesn't matter if he's in the car 10k away from you or 100k away from you. It's the same because you have to communicate on the phone or via internet and sending routes or whatever. And that's really important that both sides know, like the supporter and the athlete, what the other one needs. What he wants and how to do it.
You
said simulation too. I think that was really, really key for us. We always did a two-day simulation in January, a three-day in February, and we added them up. They were mostly physical simulations. So Ben would try to model the output of the race. And if it wasn't flyable, it was just, okay, we'll try to do this amount of vertical and this amount of road walking and this amount in the pool. It didn't have to be what we were doing. But just basically the steps that you're imagining you're doing. And then the food, the getting up at the 4.30, going to bed at 11, the whole thing. For me, it's always a ton of mobility. But we then learned that the really important thing too was he would give me the route like he would in the race.
He lives three states away. Like you said, you could totally do that. But I think for me, my real Achilles heel. My heel is like Aaron's, is the tech stuff. So my team's really good at it. And they've learned that, okay, Gavin can only process this. And here's the route. That's it. And I know how to load it. And I know how to follow an arrow. And it all works. Yeah, so that's really good advice. Other stuff? What about body maintenance, foot maintenance, that kind of thing?
I have like a nutrition expert I'm working together with. Okay. So we kind of changed my whole nutrition. Which didn't work out here in Mexico, to be honest. Because like... You only
eat meat here.
Just tacos.
Damn good tacos. Damn
good tacos. But even here, I lost two kilos again. So I have to work it out. Are you
really trying to stay as heavy as you can? Yeah. Yeah.
If I can gain a little weight, it would be good. Because anyway, during the race, you will lose it. And you will need some spare fat to burn it. And no, but I'm not planning on getting fat. I'm planning on getting stronger. I
don't know if you can. Is there a kind of nutritional, you know, are you kind of going keto? Or what is the nutritional program?
It's more or less I have like a plan of how many calories I should eat. And how much percentage it should be proteins and minerals and carbohydrates. And yeah, all this stuff. And like with more or less three main wheels and two snacks in between. So basically at home, I feel like I'm eating all day long.
So yeah, that's about nutrition. And that's coming back to simulation. Like our plan is to do like four days like as if it would be the race. Like with the same nutrition. Like really, we even rent the camper. And like the same setup. All the people in the van. And we just pick part of the route and say, okay, we're going to do that. No matter what the weather is. And because that's how it will be during the race. And if it's shitty weather, it's shitty weather. We have to do a bit. And if it's good flywheel weather, great. But that's what we want to do over Easter.
You must, you know, having been in the sport, you know the area quite well. But what do you think about Chrigel's whole thing that, you know, I was fascinated. I was sitting next to him at one of the media. And he was like, I'm going to go scout events in 2015 before the race. And I had been over there for two months scouting. And because I'm not from the Alps. And I felt like I really needed to. And he said, oh, yeah, I don't scout anything. And I thought, really? You know, I know you live here. But you don't go scout other parts of the course. And he said, because if I go in May and scout it, it's so different. It has no relevance. And I don't want to have any preconceptions. And the other big one was in 2017. He asked ten of us. You know, we'd all scouted Garda. And he asked ten people, how do you fly to Garda? And we all said, you can't. It's impossible. You know, there's too much wind.
The wind comes up the lake. And you're not going to be able to do it. And he did. And he just said, well, I don't want to hear that. And he figured it out. I think he and Gaspar were the only two that flew in there. So what do you think about that?
I'm kind of doing the same. I'm not planning to scout anything. Because once I've seen quite
a bit.
You're just going to do sections.
of the race for the simulation.
Yeah. Yeah. This section we will do. But as Chrigel said, the problem is if you think, okay, I did the simulation there. I went on this takeoff. You're kind of spoiled. And you tend to do the same thing. Even if the weather situation is completely different. Yeah. And so you're, I think, not so open-minded. Yeah. That's my thing. What I really do a lot is like beforehand, like with Google Earth. Like checking out different things. Different options. And going through different ways how to do it. Okay. Where is the pass? Could we do it hiking-wise or not? Because that's something I learned during the races. You always need to have a backup plan.
If anything goes wrong, you need to be somewhere where you. Flexible. Yeah. Where you can do something. Like especially when you're crossing the main ridge. Like I don't know if you checked Aaron's route. But it was always somewhere where the
wind was. It
would have been a path. Yeah. In case he would have bombed, he could have just walked on the other side. Sure. Yeah. Because that's the worst thing which could happen. That you're on one side and then you have to do a real big detour. All
the way around.
So that's something I learned in the races. Yeah. That this is just important because you never know. And what I also learned is just stick to the straight line. Yeah. The long, big detours. It's. Yeah. Not really worth it. It's better to just go straight, hike a bit and go straight again. Than to do like a big detour because normally it takes so much longer.
So something that I have really struggled with, especially after 2015. Because 2015 I didn't really know what I was getting into. And I just had fun and I had the right. I ended up having the right headspace for it because it was really windy. And I like it when it's rough. I tend to do better when it's rough. And then doing well. You know, I got to Monaco and it went way better than we expected. You know, then I went into the future races with more, okay, I'm going to do this well. And which was the opposite of what I think my mind needed to cling on to. And so I got more, I don't know, tense, stressed, whatever. I had expectations rather than none other than just having fun. And one of the things that became, and I trained this every year. I always trained to not thinking when I was in training, I was always training to fly the day, not the course line.
You know, to just do what we do as XC pilots. But then in the race, I always felt like my vision would narrow as the days went on. Because you're, the obvious move is not on course line. It's over here. That's going to work. As an XC pilot, that's totally what I would do. But if I blow that, that's going to add 20K on the ground. And it starts to just compress. And I would, at times I would still pull it off. And at many times I would become a. Less pilot, you know, and I would be more pessimistic than I would typically be because I had this worry of. But do you, do you think about that? Are you training that in any kind of way? Or I,
I'd like to do it like I'm competitions that I set myself like a task. And like, even here we have like the 60 case of. Way we could choose. Yeah. And that's how I want to do in the except to still have some options. But kind of have like. Error to follow. This is the mission. This is the mission. Yeah. There I want to go. Because even here, you saw there's so many ways you can do it. And normally the fastest is the more straight you can go, the better. And of course, if it's like just cheddar and shitty, like it was in yesterday's task. Like all the right side looked like really shitty to me. So I stayed on the left going closer to the takeoff. Back up. So worked fine.
So for sure, you need to have this open minded. But like Simon, for example, he you shouldn't say tell him any route because that's completely fucking him up in the head. Interesting. Yeah. And so for me, that's pretty interesting to see, like Simon doing the best thing is he doesn't know anything about the route. He just figures his own way. And Aaron, like, OK, you're going from this term to this term to this term to this term. And. So it's completely opposite the way to fly. And so I think I'm somewhere in the middle between those.
It must be. It must have been interesting supporting Simon because he really he came onto the scene. I mean, at least from my perspective, people didn't know who he was. And man, he's gifted at that race. He's just done so well every year. He's really and he just he's always kind of chipper and happy. And he's the
nicest person I know in the race. Yeah. Very nice guy. And
he's so
friendly with the supporters. Yeah. He can't be mad on anyone. Wow.
That's that's a nice characteristic. So before this will be the last question. Before every X-Alps that I've been a part of in the race week, you know, leading up to the prologue and the race, the talk of the camp is always this is the year Chrigel's going down. This is the year Chrigel's going down. And I always go, yeah, no chance of that. And I still think there's no chance of that. But if you I mean, obviously, everyone can be beat, including Chrigel. I don't know how, but, you know, he's won eight. He's going his ninth. To me, he's stronger than he's ever been. But do you think he can get taken down? And if so, by whom?
As you said, there is always something can go wrong in Chrigel's race or someone else's race. So you'll never know. There's no guarantee. But I think there are a couple of strong people in the race. Who could keep up with him. I don't know if it's going to be Maxime again chasing him or if Aaron is doing a great race or Simon or I don't know, maybe one of the rookies. We will see.
But yeah, it's X-Alps is for me mostly about decision making. And Chrigel is just flipping impressive on doing the right move at the right time. And as long as we are not able to be on this level, it will be hard catching him.
Yes, I agree. I was always the one in the camp going, yeah, I don't think so. He is impressive. And he's getting so much better. I mean, the thing for me at my age, I just turned 50. For me, the last couple of races were I don't have a chance to stay with these younger. They're just getting better and better and better. But so is Chrigel. And he just turned 40, I think. I mean, he is getting older, of course, as we all are. But he's impressive. It's been really fun to watch him. Just this domination is incredible. Yeah, he's
always like this one step ahead of the others. And I think one of his biggest advantages is his mental strength.
Yeah. Professionalism. Yeah. I mean, this whole thing, it's all oriented around winning all the time for everything. And it's very impressive. Ellie, that was great. Thanks for sharing your time. We had a big night last night, so I know we're barely hanging on here with this coffee. But thank you so much. Good luck in your preparation. And I can't wait to watch you race this June.
Thank you. Good
luck.