Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Apologize for my voice in this one, I'm battling a little bit of cold after coming back from a fantastic fly-in put on by the Desert Storm Riders, or whatever they call themselves, out at Pine Mountain in Oregon. What a cool place to fly, I've always wanted to fly pine. We got a one day, Henzie and I, the Air Jedi, Matt Henzie and I, got a great flight out towards the Steens. Oh man, I thought it was deep flying in Idaho, but those of you who haven't flown Oregon, you gotta get out there and check that place out. So many thanks to Steve Rohde and the huge crew that put on such a great event out there. We have gotten a ton of requests in the last few months from our female listeners to get a female pilot on the show, and I have finally done it. I've been trying to track down Isabella Messenger and vice versa for the last couple months, pretty hard to pin her down, and also me as well.
So we were finally able to get together on Skype. Yesterday, and had just an awesome conversation. We don't talk a lot about the aid work that she and Jamie have been doing in Nepal. They've been holed up over there. You know, they've been going back and forth between Europe and Nepal the last bunch of years, doing tandems in the winter. They were there when the earthquake hit, almost a couple years ago now, and holed up there for 18 months to do a bunch of aid and help all the people out in Nepal. Huge, heroic, incredible effort. I'm sure a lot of you have seen that on the social media. We don't get into the aid project much in this show because she just did a great podcast with Judith Mole on ThePerryLadder.com, which I invite you to go listen to. What we do get into a lot of though, is God. All kinds of terrific things and great advice.
Isabella is, of course, married to one of the greatest pilots there is, in my opinion, Jamie Messenger. She has learned a ton from him, and just been surrounded by awesome mentors. She's an incredible comp pilot. she's an incredible acro pilot, bivvy pilot, she has been chasing it really hard ever since the first day she learned how to fly a paraglider and quit her job to chase it. So super inspiring stories I think you're gonna get a lot out of this. Also, after we signed off, she mentions in the show a recent expedition that she did with Cody and Charisse Tuttle and Jamie and Nick Greece and the Ozone team up in the upper Mustang, and those guys did a really cool film about it. I've only seen the preview but if you want to check that out check out Wingate Motion on Facebook, like their page, follow what they're doing.
Those guys are also super inspiring and doing some great humanitarian work and some really cool things. So without further ado please enjoy this fantastic conversation with the great fabulous wonderful Isabella Messenger.
Isabella, I think we have just set the record in time to do a podcast. How long we've been trying to do this? Holy Molly. It's
been a while. It has
been a while, my goodness. Well thank you very much. No it's not your fault, it was both of our fault. Luckily we're just doing too many awesome things all the time, that's a good thing, that's a good problem to have. That is a good
thing, that is, definitely.
Where are you and what are you doing?
I'm in the Bavarian heartland, looking out the window right now at cows. They have bells on them. It's rolling hills. It's really beautiful. I'm in Oberstdorf, which is just on the border of Austria, and it's just a really stunning place. It's kind of a tandem factory here at the Nabelhorn, which is a nice thing. Tons of tourists, and it's also just incredible free-flying back into the Austrian Alps from here. Really nice. So it's a good spot. We're really happy here.
Yeah, fantastic. You're with Jessica. I love her, yeah?
Yeah, she's just sitting across the table from me.
Fantastic. I understand she's making a carrot cake. We might have to take a break, and you can tell me about it. She is. Yeah, I'm sure it's delicious. She's
making a carrot cake for somebody's birthday, and she's a grown-up, so she has an actual house with internet and stuff. Whoa! Yeah, I know. I know. It's kind of a big deal. We live in a camper van, so I had to shift over here to sit in her kitchen and get on the Skype, so she's very kindly hosting me.
In fact, I think, I believe, no, that wasn't the last time I saw you, was it? The last time I saw you was at the Preworlds down in Columbia. But the first time I believe we met, and I might have this wrong, I have a Swiss cheese for a head, was at the, you were trying to show me how to put in waypoints for the first day of the PWC in Annecy. I was just ghost riding, and I wasn't actually in the comp, but we've come a long way, haven't we? How
far you've come, Kevin. Do you know how to put the waypoints in now?
I do. I did finally figure that out. I don't know if you remember that, but they canceled that PWC. And then I just happily glided around the whole course, having no idea, of course, because I was way off the back and following you guys around.
That was an epic one, wasn't it? I was also not participating. I was with, Jamie was in that comp. Yeah, I remember it just kind of rained. It was awful. They had that one insane task that was leasied the whole time. And then they canceled the last day because it was raining in the morning. And then it turned into the most beautiful day, and everybody had gone home. And there were people on, like, ENA. ENA gliders just boating around, doing the big tour. It was, yeah, it was a tough comp, that one, for the guys. Yeah, that's
right. That's right. Absolutely. Well, let's start there and rewind the clock. Because I know a bit of your history, but I don't think a lot of our listeners do. How did you get into this absurd thing we call paragliding?
I learned to fly in 2007, and I'd never even heard about paragliding. I didn't know what paragliding was. I just was kind of a weekend warrior. I was living in Munich at the time, and I'd come out to the Alps on the weekends. And I just saw them for the first time and went, what the hell? That is amazing. And I thought they were just a descent mechanism. So I loved doing via ferratas, fixed-rope climb stuff, and hiking in the mountains. And I just thought, what a great way to get down at the end of the day. I had no idea that you could actually fly cross country or do anything. So I signed up for a course. I was so hungover. Let's be... I was probably still super drunk, actually, the morning the course started. And so I almost didn't make it. And it was only because there was this amazingly nice guy who...
He basically just came by my house and pounded on my door and said, you are coming to this course. And I said, no, I can't. I'm still drunk. There's no chance. This was back in my party days. And he's like, no, you've got to come. It's going to be an amazing course. And so he dragged me out there. And I still have a photo from my first day on the training hill. I'm curled up in fetal position. It was like a 100-degree day. So humid. And I'm just so sick lying at the bottom of the training hill. But I'm so glad he made me go to this course because just from that moment on, I was obsessed. And I quit my job. I got my certification, my beginner certification, kind of in September, last day of September. And I moved off to Nepal the very next day because I heard you could fly there in the winter. So it was definitely a life-altering experience from day one.
And who was the guy? I don't know. I don't remember. I
don't remember
him, actually. Sam random was also doing the course. I hadn't even met him before that day. We had just signed up for the same course. And we're driving, both of us, from Munich. So, yeah. But I'm still
grateful. And Nepal. OK. So you were living in Munich. What were you doing for a job?
I was in the IT business. Wow. I know. I know. Really exciting. I did tech stuff for commercial real estate companies. So I would do database design and development. And then website design and development. And I loved it. You know, I didn't know any better. So I thought that was just the best thing ever. I really enjoyed the work. And yeah, it was only, like I said, until that first day of the paragliding introduction that I went, oh, no, no, no, I don't want to be doing that no more.
That's amazing. So literally in one day you decided, OK, I'm going to change my life.
Pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it took the course of the summer because it always rains in Germany. So it took the whole summer to kind of gradually. Extricate myself. And but, yeah, as soon as I had my my certification, fortunately, because life is pretty cheap in Nepal, especially back then, you know, I'd saved up enough that I could could quit and live in Nepal if I was being frugal for a while. So I knew, you know, I could afford to live out there for about a year and just fly every day and then see where where things would take me after that.
And then, how quickly were you able to turn paragliding into a job?
sooner than I expected? I'm. Also terrible with timelines, but it was within because in Nepal the weather is so amazing, you can pretty much fly every day there. So you just amass amazing amounts of experience there and just time in the saddle, you know, probably fly 500 hours a year or something. It's just amazing that place. So I would say within about a year and a half, I started doing tandems just with friends and I'd only done about maybe five or six tandems with really brave people. Like Jamie, those are the bravest people that fly with beginning tandem pilots. And then I just I rocked up to take off one day and Ajay, one of the guys on the team there at the Frontiers Paragliding, just said to me, OK, you've got your first commercial tandem.
And, you know, there's the Wild West out there. So I was like, no way, no freaking way am I flying a commercial tandem. I've only done about five or six tandems total. He's like, you've got this. You've got this. You've been flying this site for. Ages will help you off. And I remember it was a little Chinese lady. She was adorable. So nice. And, you know, in the first in the house thermal, she was like, oh, you must just you must love your job. It must be just every day something different. I was like, yep. This
is the first time I've done it. It's awesome.
Yeah. Love it. So, yeah, I mean, it was pretty, pretty soon, I would say, within the first couple of years of flying. You know, it's also a really nice, friendly site. Pokhara is very. Very beginner friendly place. So where that wouldn't have worked in a place like Sun Valley, for sure, or some other more active flying site in Pokhara, we got away with it. And when does Jamie come into the picture? Yeah, Jamie came into the picture pretty soon. I, you know, I've been very grateful, actually. One of the things that I was pretty thrilled about with my new paragliding life was I was like, right. I can't wait to be single for a year. This was my goal. I am not going to. I'm not going to date anybody. I'm just going to get out to Nepal and fly and enjoy my single life, not be responsible for anything or anyone.
And a week later, I met Jamie. So.
And the rest is history, as they say, right? Yeah,
the rest is history.
And so, I mean, at that point, you know, Jamie's got a ton of history. We don't have time to go into all that. But, I mean, I guess that you kind of ran into blindly one of the best mentors there is. And I'm sure that affected your flying and your passion quite a bit.
Yeah, I mean, poor Jamie, really. He suffered a lot with me in the first, especially first year. Because I was hypersensitive to not having the dynamic in our relationship of him being my tutor, kind of telling me what to do all the time. You know, so I wouldn't listen. Poor Jamie. You know, I would swill around. I didn't even know what a lee side was, you know. Or in my first cross country, I was like, oh. Cross country flying is so easy. Well, because it was like in front of a gust front, you know. And I basically, like, went around the entire, you know, beginner cross country route under a massive cumulonimbus, you know. And he would try and gently say to me, okay, well, you know, this is what you did. Don't tell me what to do. I don't want you to do. So he would have to tell his friends, you know, advice.
And then they would kindly come. And I'd listen to them, you know, people like Adam Hill or Ajay or any of the guys that were, you know. But I was really very, very silly, actually, in the beginning about not wanting to mix that or have that dynamic. So, yeah, he was patient. And I eventually figured out that listening to Jamie was a very, very good idea. And so I've adjusted now. Yeah,
he's quite the air Jedi, which you have become as well. And how have you, has your progression been more just because you guys are in? You know, you're making it your job, I understand now, with Tandems in the winter in Nepal. Of course, last year and the year before you were dealing with the earthquake and karma flights and a lot of that type of stuff, which listeners were, we decided before we got into this, we weren't going to talk too much about that because Isabella just did a great podcast with Judith Moll on theparaglider.com. So I highly recommend you go listen to that. I think we'll get into some of that. But you, so you're spending, I think, what's half of the year in Nepal? And then half of the year back? Is that approximately correct?
Things have shifted really since the earthquake. Before the earthquake, that was the case. Yeah, we were about six months there, then six months in Europe. But, you know, we basically were there for 18 months or, yeah, about almost 18 months straight through after the earthquake. And we didn't leave at all. We pretty much stayed there. And now I think we will probably be spending more time in Europe, actually. And hopefully the States. I have yet to fly in the States. It's insane. I've never flown in the States. I just drool over you guys' track logs and competition tasks. I mean, the most amazing tasks. People here in Europe have really been so, you've really caught people's attention now with the comps going on in the States with these epically long tasks.
And that's what people really want in a comp. So I'm excited to hopefully be able to spend a little bit more time in the States and in Europe. And unfortunately enough… In Nepal now, the tandem business is, let's call it a burgeoning industry. There's about 60 tandem companies now. So it's no longer really viable for foreign pilots, which is a good thing. I mean, that's what we always were hoping to see is that enough local pilots would get qualified in order to be able to, you know, fill the workforce there because obviously they're the ones that should be working in their own home country. So that's been great. But what it means for us is that now when we go over to Nepal, we're basically just… working with Karma Flights and the Cloud-Based Foundation, but not so much on the day-to-day tandem route and hopefully also doing some more expeditions out there.
Great. And you just did an expedition. I saw some pictures that Nick Greece put up. Tell me a little bit about that. That sounded really neat.
It was amazing. You know, if you ever get a chance, you know, and obviously this is a broad call out to everybody, to get to Upper Mustang. It is one of the most exceptional places on this planet in every way. I mean… And the terrain is incredibly beautiful. The people are amazing. The culture is so rich. And the, you know, just the history of the area and up on this, you know, take motorbikes, get out there, drive up to the Tibetan Plateau. It's a trip that'll stay with you for a lifetime for sure. It's, you know, it's not as extreme as Alaska. You still have guest houses along the way. So don't get put off by that. But it's really a cool place to fly. It's not a place for big cross country flying.
The wind kicks up. It's quite famous for a really strong valley wind that usually kicks in between 11 and 1 every day. So you've got to get up early, hike up, and get in an early flight. But just being in the air in a place like that is pretty spectacular.
So after all these years of flying a ton of hours, you know, 500 hours a year, that's insane. Nepal and then coming back to Europe. I know you and Jamie live in your gorgeous RV in the summers typically. It's up to the last 18 months. But have your views, attitudes, passion for flying changed?
I'd say I've been a little bit shocked by how difficult it's been to get back into flying comfortably after such a long break. So basically didn't fly at all for about a year, which was bizarre because literally when the earthquake happened, we were standing in front of our tandem office getting ready to go up and do a normal tandem day. So we went. We went from, you know, paragliding being the central component of our lives to it being completely on the back burner for a year. And I've been a little bit frustrated because I kind of I thought starting to fly again. Well, of course, you know, I've been doing it for so long and it should be just comfortable. And it wasn't. You know, my first few flights after not flying for ages, I was really not comfortable.
And so that's been a bit of a bit of a tough thing because I love flying so much. And I was. I'm so excited to get back to it and so excited to kind of get back to to normal life, quote unquote. And and it's taken a little bit longer than I expected. It's been about a month now and I'm still like, you know, when the air gets bumpy and I'm in the back somewhere, I just I start to really get nervous. And I never had that before. So not certainly not on, you know, I'm flying LM six now and it's a lovely glider, beautiful machine. But, yeah, definitely the psychology. It's been a bit interesting and it's been helpful to be around some great pilots here, like, you know, a couple of ex-Alps pilots that are around there, especially one guy, Manu Nubo. He's a good friend.
And and he's been, you know, he's totally not machismo style. He's like, everybody feels that way sometimes. And that's been really comforting, like everybody, even he's like, I used to fly with music because I get so scared it would just help calm me down in the air, you know, and I was really not confident. And this is coming from somebody that I respect and admire so much as a pilot. And he's like, you get through it. You know, you just get current. Again, you fly and one day you just you realize you don't feel that way anymore. So I'm looking forward to that.
Manuel and I had a really interesting day together. I think it was day three in the ex-Alps where it was incredibly windy and the guys that had gotten out front were able to kind of turn the corner at Laramoose. And, man, he and I and Eric Reinfeldt, I think, God, we got stuffed in some bad areas coming into the zone where you are right now. It was yeah, it was he's a he's a terrific pilot. Really, really, really good. And yeah, that's that sounds like just a time thing. The last time I flew with you down in Columbia, you were on the ice peak. When was the last competition you did?
I think actually I may have been on the Enzo 2 at that point. Was that that was just before. Yeah, that was the last comp I did before heading back to Nepal. Yeah. So and that comp was a handful. Man, I loved it. I had fun. But it was yeah, it was I had got had that midair at that comp. That's
right. So
I think probably that's what. Also, it has affected me a bit is, you know, I did had that comp where I had to full stall the glider a couple of times that one day where it was really north and, you know, just being new on a two liner. And the full stalls went great, came out clean, everything perfect, but ripped the front cell open of the of the middle of the glider. So, you know, ended up going out to land with that, fix the glider next next task.
Lovely pilot. But just had he had a moment and he just was full bar into the thermal, came off the bar and just went into the glider. And he just went into my lines and that would have ended OK as well, but ended up throwing my rescue, which is probably the right decision, although it annoys me still to this day, because I think I probably could have fixed it. But anyways, bygones. And so landed it landed under under the rescue and and yeah, then came back to Nepal and we had our comp in Nepal. And unfortunately, on the last day of that comp, there was a really awful bus crash. Just below the takeoff where people, many people died. And it was really traumatizing. You could hear people kind of calling for help.
And it was just really awful, you know, families. And it was just really so a lot of kind of unfortunate things that happened associated with flying that, you know, each one on their own would have been fine. But those the combination of things and then with a long break and the earthquake and all that work, I think that's what's what's made me. Yeah, just need need a little bit of time. I'm in the saddle to get back to where I was before. Have
you had if you had other times in your let's call it a career, your flying career that that you've had to deal with that kind of thing, like fear or accidents or other tosses, anything that's kind of like, whoa, you know, reel it back or or had a hard time coming back from it?
No, not really. I used to do lots and lots of acro practice, which helped so much with everything. So I definitely threw my rescue maybe half a dozen times with acro. But always, you know, bad acro over the water. And all of those felt fine, felt great. If anything, I learned from each one of them. I was really happy to have all those experiences. Never, never rattled me being, of course, in such a busy site in Pokhara. There's loads of people having accidents all the time. But you definitely still had that kind of mental protection of like, well, you know, each one of those I can explain why it happened. So it didn't it didn't get you know, they didn't get to me in the same way as. Yeah, rescue toss on the Enzo was probably. Yeah. Like I said, that's the one that still sticks with me, because I think if I if I'd worked a little harder just to fix it, it would have been a it would have been a no problem.
No brainer. Kegar. What's that? Sorry, Nepali. Kegar. It's something people in Nepal say all the time. It's like life is like that. You know, it's just one of those.
That's how it rolls. That's how it rolls. So looking forward. You know, you've had this long break because you were doing all this aid work and help and support in Nepal. Looking forward. Do you you and Jamie, you mentioned you kind of wanted to do some more traveling in the States and maybe be more in Europe. Are you are you kind of fissuring towards comp flying? Are you what what's what's the what's the future look like for you guys?
I don't know. It's hard to plan. I think I'd really like to start getting back into comps again eventually. I've really, really enjoyed the the kind of more vol biv stuff that we've been doing just little short micro adventures, you know, That sort of stuff where you just go off into the mountains for a day or two has been so relaxing and lovely, and I kind of right now, relaxing and calm is, is right up my alley in terms of just being out in the nature, and but I do definitely still feel a draw to the comps. I'm sure we'll get back to those at some point in the in the hopefully near future. That Zeno is going good.
I've heard that's I've heard that's a gorgeous wing.
So hopefully they make a nice small one and let's see. Yeah,
one of the questions I get a lot from our listeners are people that are, you know, they feel like they're kind of at that point where they're ready for some vol biv and they're really excited about it. It's just such a cool thing, isn't it? Seeing all these people do these amazing missions. What would you recommend for kind of a lower more lower hours pilot? Where would you recommend them to go and kind of stick their toe? In the water when it comes to vol biv?
I mean, I might be a bit biased, but I'd say this area has incredible potential with, you know, it's still being nice and soft and gentle as long as you don't go over the back into the big mountains. There's all these smaller hikes, you know, a couple hours up, you sleep out at 1700 meters and then you pick your moment in the morning. If you want to try for cross country, you wait or if you just want to have a nice glide down, you lie down so you can. I mean, definitely the key is to get in with a bunch. A bunch of people that are doing that already, you know, with everything in this sport. I think if you surround yourself with the right type of pilots, that's the pilot you become. So look, look at the pilots you want to be and snuggle up with them and say, can I can I join you on your next vol biv? There's been a few just just right around here in Oberstdorf that are just absolutely stunning.
There's got to be at least a half a dozen around here that aren't more than a day or two commitment. And that's a nice, soft, gentle way to kind of get into it and see if it's your. Great.
Let's talk a little bit, Isabella, about the difference between men and women in the sport. You've been pretty vocal about, you know, wings and size of wings, which is, of course, tough for little people like us. I think I can put myself in that category as well. Why aren't there more women? And I don't know, what are some of the things that you see that are maybe glaring or not so glaring differences? Good and bad.
What do you weigh in at, Gavin?
Oh, you're going to put me in? You're
going to put me
on the spot, aren't you? Right. OK, I have gained quite a bit of weight since all my X-OPS training, but I'm about 165. All
right. So 165. The reason I asked that question is because, you know, a lot of the girls, the ladies are like 115 to 120, 125. I mean, there's some tiny, tough girls in this sport. And, you know, if you're carrying 33 kg of gear. Which you do because you weigh 120 and you got to, just to get up to the extra small glider and be comfortably in the weight range, that's what you're carrying. So basically every takeoff, every sketchy landing, every time it's cross or you got to really, you know, do a fast running reverse or anything like that as a percentage of your body weight and as a percentage of your overall strength, it's gnarly.
I mean, I give so much respect to. Women like Seiko and Lori and Claudia, they're not big women by any stretch. And yet they have managed through technique and consistent hard work to make, you know, that managing that as safe as possible for them. But it is an extra risk every time. Every time on takeoff and landing, you know, Seiko's broken her ankles, you know, it's just a lot of mass. It's a lot of weight to be managing in comparison to your overall body weight. Then once you get into the air, you're on an extra small. So extra smalls are, by their very nature, whittier, more dynamic, more aggressive, and less performing.
So as everyone in our sport knows, because even the big guys will ballast up to get on an extra large to get a little bit more advantage. And, of course, depending on the wing, that advantage is not so big, you know, or it can be less extreme than it used to be back in the day. Okay. But still, you're pushing at the top level. You're pushing for every little micro advantage, aren't you? And so when you go into the day feeling like maybe you're already at a disadvantage, that's a big psychological obstacle to kind of overcome. But you can do that. You know, you've picked your sport. You love your sport. You want to perform well in your sport. And so you know that going into it. And you can say, right, I know all that, but I'm going to put that into the back of my head.
But what can be tough then, and there's more and more studies coming out about these sort of things, is how the nuances of how people maybe treat you. And it's not as if they're treating you in any bad way or any negative way. It's just maybe they're a bit more – let's try and draw an analysis maybe to, say, racism, sexism and racism. So a lot of people don't recognize that they're treating an African-American person slightly different. You know, maybe they see them coming down the side of the road. And they cross the road because, oh, I'm a bit nervous. You know, and they don't see that as racism, but it's just a different way that you treat somebody. So that's an extreme example. Within our sport, it can be somebody offering to help you on the takeoff, which is a really kind thing to do.
But it initially – it gives you that little bit of a sense of, oh, maybe I'm not tough enough to do this on my own. Oh, maybe I need a little bit of help. Oh, maybe I need the assistance. And that's not the gnarly attitude that you need when you go into a race day. You've got to be. It all throttles on. You've got to be really feeling fully confident. Or it can be like kind of sexist jokes that get made sometimes or a reference to, you know, this has happened previously in comps. Like I, you know, got called up for having won the task that day for the women's. And, you know, I got handed a T-shirt with nipple tassels on it, you know, and it's funny. Yeah, it's funny. But does it help women to get into a sports mode? It helps women to get into a sports mode that they need to be in as opposed to being a little bit off kilter then.
Like, oh, okay, that was kind of a sexist thing. Or, you know, I've had somebody hand me a cat suit and say, oh, put this on for the interview. Oh, show a little bit more cleavage for your interview. You know, wear something a little bit sexier tomorrow. Or, you know, all of those subtle comments which in and of themselves are not bad. You know, it's fine. We can roll with all that stuff in normal day-to-day life. But, again, as a psychological – As a psychological impact, maybe it's underestimated a little bit how much effort it takes to just laugh and smile and move beyond that and then put your task in and get, you know, get geared up. And so it would be lovely. I think women would really, really appreciate it. And it would really encourage a lot of women into our sport if they sense that being a woman was not the point on the takeoff.
There's not, you know, it doesn't have to – we don't have to make a big fuss of it. We don't have to make jokes. We don't have to just treat. Women the same way you treat your bro on the takeoff basically would be awesome. Well, I
think that's – I mean that's one of the things. Other than the wing side and since you pointed out the weight, I had to add it up. I mean, yeah, you're right. That's ridiculous. Like one time down at a World Cup, you know, I flew a larger wing because I could and I did the whole 33 kg thing. I mean – and I'm, you know, like I said, 165 pounds. So I've got 50 pounds on these girls and I'm strong. And it was really hard and very dangerous. Yeah. Same thing is like when we fly these bivvies like in Alaska at the end, you know, my pack was 80 pounds. You really have to compensate for that. That's not an easy thing to do. Launching and landing in the air is fine. But even in the air, it's a little weird. I mean, you know, it makes you heavy and it makes you – but, you know, what I would think is cool about the sport, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't really – in terms of the flying, you know, there is – we don't have any advantage.
We have this massive wing advantage. And when you're talking about racing comps, that tiny, you know, that 5 % or 10 % is everything. I mean, that's the difference between first and 50th. So we can't really talk about that so much in terms of it being fair because it's just not – and there's not much, you know, that can be done about that. But – Which
is why – sorry to interrupt, but I want to give a huge shout-out to Claudia Bulyakov. Yes. Epic. A task on her little wing. So
cool. So cool. So badass. At the Euros? Yeah, at the Euros. I mean, that's basically a Superfinal. I mean, basically as prime as it gets and winning a task is just awesome. Yeah. Huge shout-out to Claudia. But, you know, is it – you know, you still – I mean, basically we have a sport that, you know, that isn't like weightlifting. It's not like – you know, it's really attitude. It's not strength. It has nothing depending on that. But we have this huge – you know, the seesaw is skewed so far one way. Why is that? Are there things that are not obvious? I mean, I think everybody that just heard that question went, well, okay, we know the answer to that.
But what's your take?
Well, I mean, again, you mentioned attitude and how important attitude is. You know, what we just touched on before of just, you know, if you're coddled all the time because you're a woman, you feel a little bit less secure. Maybe you don't go for it as much. You don't get that great feedback feeling then of having done a big flight or having, you know, tried an acro maneuver that you wouldn't have tried otherwise. So loads of confidence. I think confidence is an issue and that stems obviously from a variety of factors. But you've got to have a lot of confidence to be kind of pushing in this sport. And, yeah, for whatever reason, maybe women are not pushed along that line from an early age, you know, starting with Barbies. And, you know, look pretty tomorrow rather than, hey, here's a monster truck, you know.
So that may begin at a very early age. What I'm really very pleased to see actually is the courses that you see running now in Bavaria. There's a school here and they, you know, teach hundreds of people. And I'd say the numbers are getting close to 50-50 on women learning here, which is really, really cool to see. So maybe this next generation now, there's enough women that have kind of led the vanguard in our sport. Where it's shifting. I think the states might be just a bit different because the flying there is pretty brutal, isn't it? I mean, again, having not flown there. But it's, so you have to think about as a woman about things like landing out in the middle of nowhere and hitchhiking back in the middle of the night. And, you know, stuff like that, that especially having grown up in the states. I mean, I remember the first time I hitchhiked as a paragliding pilot and I was like, oh, my God, here we go.
I'm going to get raped and murdered. This is it. It's all over. Because grow up with that in the states. It's like automatically you hitchhike, you're dead as a woman. And it took me a long time to realize that's not true. I mean, as long as you use your common sense and make sure you get a lift with some, you know, nice looking lady or a family, you're so safe hitchhiking. And you're going to have great experiences. And you're going to have awesome. Sometimes you won't even remember the flight, but you'll remember the retrieve. And, you know, so I think maybe retraining people's mentality a little bit about, you know, that you can. Be safe as a woman, even flying cross country and landing out someplace as long as you, you know, you're prepared and you use common sense.
Yeah, I don't I don't really know what else to attribute. You know, obviously, a lot of women, they get to a certain age, they have kids. And then once you have kids, if you're pregnant, you're already taken nine months at least off flying. And then after that, it's probably quite hard to come back. And you're, you know, going to shift your perspective a little bit. Not to say that if you have children, you automatically stop flying. But certainly. Certainly, I think that plays a role quite often. You see that a
lot on the men's side, don't we? I mean, I think I think people's just risk profile pretty radically shifts often when when kids come along. I mean, I can't say that for sure, but maybe someday.
I
want to see some little gathers.
Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Holy cow. I can't even take care of a dog.
I had I had a couple of questions just written down here that are kind of like, I don't know, they're like rapid fire questions. So you don't have to answer them quickly. You can you can long form this. But what's the best flight you've ever had? Oh, man.
Weirdly, and I'm just going to talk about the very first one that comes to mind. It was nothing massively epic. It was just so beautiful. It was in Bir, Billing, India. It was Jamie. And it was not an epic day. Loads of various levels of clouds. So we were just flying through. It was very mystical, you know, flying through clouds, through different cloud bases. We were joined by a group of Himalayan griffon vultures, you know, the big monster birds. They're like flying dinosaurs. And they cruised with us for a while through the clouds. And then we popped out and there was just this scene of like the temple with the monks and chanting. And it just felt unreal, you know. And I think. Yeah, it just unreal moments like that where there's no pressure, no stress, and you just get an unexpected gift of the most beautiful flight that that that has to be maybe my some of my favorite flights.
Yeah, that one in particular was was amazing.
I can I was having all these visions in my head when you were describing that because I've been to Bir. I went there. I've been there twice and had a similar experience with John Sylvester. It was the first bivy I ever done. We went over the back and kind of top landed above Manali and then flew back the next day and going through one of the coals. We had to kind of do a through the clouds and misty and that place has that. Yeah, that's a that's a beautiful vision. It's such a neat place to fly, isn't it? I it's such a cool place for I think low hours pilots to go and get their first 50 K to a place like Dharamshala. I mean, just it's Matt. I know you're just you're flying to Dharamshala.
Yeah, it's just so
and and I've never flown anywhere and maybe I've never flown in Nepal, but maybe it's it's like this in Nepal as well, but I remember the first few times following those guys around Eddie and John and those guys you stuff your glider into places where we don't do that at home or anywhere else in the world. You don't do that in the Alps either. I mean, you just there's no wind. It's just a trip. Yeah, you know, you could just put your glider back in these canyons and it's you know, and every every it's the coolest thing because you get to fly. You get to see how everything should work, you know, like that's a trigger that's going to work and that's that time of day at sun angle and I think
it's flying by the right.
Yeah, it all just makes sense there, doesn't it? And yet you're surrounded by this just.
Yeah,
that's basically the sound.
Any aha moments 2006 to hear in terms of your progression or just, you know, you've talked a little bit about acro. I want to talk about that more, too, and just how important that is. I'm also realizing that in the last few years, but any, you know, along the way, have there been any times where you're just like, oh, OK.
I think I probably underestimated the psychological portion of the sport. And then I did a Vipassana, which is for anybody that hasn't heard of Vipassana, it's a 10 day. It's a silent meditation.
And at the end of that Vipassana, I had kind of found, for lack of a better way to describe it, a center, a new center. And that was so valuable for flying, like the ability to just calm yourself and recognize the mind body connection when you're flying is so invaluable to recognize, for example, when your shoulders are tensed up and that's telling your brain stress, stress, stress. Or you're, you know, you're sitting up. You're sitting up in the harness a bit because you're a bit stressed. And so, so kind of going through that meditation process and just kind of sitting silently with yourself for 10 days was a big aha moment for me. I came out of that feeling really great. I had a really nice couple of flying years after the first.
And then I went back and did a second, second Vipassana. And yeah, definitely a big aha moment where I recognized how aware you always have to be in the air of your breathing. Of your. Not being focused, physically locked in, eyes staring at something, you know, just be keeping in that kind of relaxed state of being in the moment and not being distracted by external influences or getting distracted, thinking about other things. Because the minute you do that, you're losing with cross country flying, aren't you? You know, you're just no longer kind of connecting to all the information that's coming in around you. So that was a big one. And
how about, you know, along the way back when you were a pup, if you can remember. And were there, was there anything kind of being repeated from Jamie or maybe not from Jamie, from some of the people he was telling to tell you that were kind of coming up again and again? Or something, something you can kind of remember back to and go, oh, I believe, and I might be wrong, but I believe, you know, you probably because you surrounded yourself with the people you did and, and the hours, I imagine you got good really fast. And sometimes that can be. I mean, sometimes that's, that can be a little dangerous, right?
Yeah. Yeah. You definitely get a bit too confident then and cocky. I think I got this, the classic intermediate syndrome, but maybe a bit speeded up. I mean, I feel very lucky looking back now. I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten away with things. You know, I think some pilots just unfortunately get bitten with things early on in the flying career that other people just go, who got away with that one, you know, and looking back now, certainly there were, there was some advice. That I'd received that I ignored completely that could have probably ended in tears, but, but I got through that phase, thankfully. And now I'm a much more cautious pilot until this moment, knocking on wood, have managed to, to, to be quite safe.
Have you ever, have you ever had an accident?
I don't think so. I've never broken anything. So what constitutes an accident? I know that you haven't had one. Yeah. If you don't know, you have it. That's good. I mean, I've had some, certainly some close calls. You know, I remember one end of day, it had gone slightly katabatic, very ballasted up on the comp wing coming into land and just slammed into a rock, bounced. I mean, my, my glasses went flying and then my glider went over a high attention power line that I hadn't seen. So I was that close to hitting a power line, which in Nepal probably had no power in it. But, you know, that's probably the closest, that one is the one I shiver when I think back on and think, yeah, that would have been an accident if it, if, if I glid another two meters, you know, then that would have been me slamming into that thing.
So, but other than that, I've been, I've been very fortunate so far. I've been very lucky and hope to keep that trajectory going.
What do you most love and what do you most hate about paragliding? If you hate anything, that would be an impossible question for me. But I don't know. I wrote it down for some reason.
What do I love most? I love, I don't know. I love everything about it. I love the whole community that we have. I love the places it takes you to. I love the incredible experiences, the edifying experiences in every way that it gives you. I love the, the, the feeling of being in the air, the feeling of a successful, beautiful, lengthy flight. The feeling when you, you know, manage to do some good acro after weeks of horrific acro, you know. It's just every moment, you, you, every flight is a new surprise. You never, ever know what's coming with flying. And that is what makes it so much fun and so chaotic sometimes and so frustrating. And, yeah, hate, hate's such a strong word. Yeah,
let's use dislike. I don't, I don't like hate either. I just, that was a shorter word to put on the, on the page.
Sometimes I don't like the way that it brings out people's,
insecurities through competition. So basically sometimes you can be in, if you're not in the right state of mind or you're in a bad mood or, it can be really enhanced by being around a bunch of people. Like, you know, sometimes in a comp, somebody's come second in the task that day and they've got their grump face on, you know. They're like, oh, I should have won if I'd been. And that's just competitive people. We're always striving to do better and be faster. And, you know, that's what makes us love it. But sometimes it can be a bit of a downer. I just want to say, come on, let's just be happy. You came second today, man. It's awesome. Yeah, we're
last. We're paragliding. I mean, you know, I think, I think competitions can really get people in trouble because we have to, I don't know. I mean, I get it. When you get really good and you, you know, you want to be competitive and you want to win. But at the same time, it's, it doesn't really matter. No one's going to, no one's going to remember, you know. It's perfect. Perfect. You know, it's not, it's, it's, it's just not that big a thing. And, and it's, you know, we're there to have fun. And I think if you get too competitive, it can also be pretty dangerous, isn't it? I mean, it's.
Yeah. So that would be, if I guess I had to pick one thing, you know, just sometimes allowing myself to, to be that way, to get too frustrated or upset by a bad day or a bad task or a bad flight. You know, that's, that's something that, that actually, you know, paragliding just shows you all the parts of you, basically. It shows you, you know. What you're good at, what you're bad at, what you need to work on physically, emotionally, mentally. It's a, it's, it's really great that way for revealing yourself if you, if you listen to it. And so actually that, that would even be a good thing. That wouldn't even be a bad thing. It's just, you know. Yeah,
sure. For, for the female listeners, because I've been getting a lot of requests to get a woman on the show. And so, of course, I chose you and congratulations. The first, I mean, it's just ridiculous that I haven't had more. Wait a minute. Of course. You're the first. You're the first. Stop it. Yep. Yep. You're the first. And so, and we had a lot of requests for that, by the way, which is, which is great. But. Why not Kari Castle? She's, she's coming on in a few days. She's been in Europe. Oh, good. Yeah, she's been in Europe for the last month. And we tried a few times when she was there, but the same, you know, the same difficulties you and I had, it just can be tricky. I'm so glad
I got in before Carrie, because, you know, embarrassing. She's, she's going to be an impossible act to follow, so. Isn't she great? She's such a, such
a legend. Yeah. I can't wait to talk to her. She's been a real inspiration and mentor for me as well over the years. So that'll, that'll be terrific. But let's, let's talk to them as an audience for a little bit. What's, we talked about it a bit before, but, you know, hand out some free advice. You know, how, how, how is progression maybe different? How is the approach maybe different? What can you tell our female listeners that are, you know, that are back in your 2007 days, you know, when you were just picking it up? What would you, what would you offer to them as? Kind of a guideline or a rail to follow?
I'd say don't treat, don't make any part of it any different. Don't do anything differently than if, than if you were, try to just behave exactly as if you're one of the guys. And don't, if people start to treat you a little bit differently, don't talk about fear all the time. Don't focus on negative stuff. Don't get yourself zeked on launch by hanging out with a bunch of people that are zeked. Like, put yourself in the middle of a group of pilots that you really respect. And, and try to just, yeah, honor your progression in a way that is respectful to yourself. Don't allow yourself either to be talked down to, but also don't allow yourself to be pushed. You know, the guys don't. Guys are, seem to be much more happy to be like, oh, hell no, I'm not flying today. No, that is not my cup of tea.
Like, this is not my thing. Whereas I think women tend to get a little bit more, yeah, easily influenced by, you know, oh, my part. Especially because a lot of times the dynamic is. The guy learns to fly first and then he really wants his partner to learn to fly. And so then it's a really tough dynamic because you naturally, if you have a good relationship, you want to please your partner. You want to make sure that they're happy. And so you're trying, you know. And so, so those kind of dynamics are really unhealthy. I would say be super hyper aware of that dynamic even beginning or, or allowing it to happen. Be super independent. Make your own decisions. Listen to everybody's advice, but make your own decisions in the end. And, and stand true to your, to your gut instincts. I think maybe one of the advantages, as much as I don't like to highlight the difference between men and women, of course, there's some differences.
And I think women tend to be maybe as a general, generalization, a bit more intuitive and a bit more maybe likely to, I've seen very often with women on launch, they have a gut instinct about something. Oh, I don't, I don't like this or I, or I really want to fly today. I want to do a big distance. And today's the day, you know, and go with your intuitions. Really, if your gut instinct is telling you something, it knows it's wiser than you. That's your subconscious. That's all of the information that is gathered. You're, you're a little monkey in the front of your brain that's trying to tell you things. It knows very little. Whereas your subconscious, which is your gut instinct about things, is the, is the global picture. So, you know, be, I think really spend a lot of time getting to know yourself before you push yourself into.
A sport that is really challenging, you know, listen to your, to yourself on the takeoff before you take off. Is my heartbeat accelerated? Is my breathing accelerated? Do I feel a sense, a strong sense of nervousness? Take a few minutes to calm down then first, you know, don't rush stuff. Take, take time, literally go off and sit on your own for a minute or two and then see if that helps. And if it doesn't call it a day, you know, don't get pressured into anything you don't want to do because if you get pressured and also, because women, if they progress very quickly, and this happens to a lot of women in the beginning of our sport, if you start to show potential as a cross country pilot, it's much less, it's much easier to get, for example, onto your national team than it is for a guy. A guy usually has to work, I mean, some people are fast, Gavin, but, you know, guys usually have to work for years to attain the level of skill and competence and experience to get put up into their national team and go into a two-week comp like the Euros of the world.
Whereas, you know, especially in some of the smaller nations, a woman can qualify within a couple years of flying. You don't have the same level of experience. You don't have the same level of, you can't, you can't fast forward that process. And so, you know, don't get intimidated in those situations. Be really happy to be last into goal every day. Be happy to be slow. And if people make fun or they tease you, roll with it because this is your education time, you know, and take advantage of that. You're going to university. Every competition, for example, is really like a year of paragliding university. And, yeah, so I think really the advice, if I could give myself the advice in the beginning of flying again, I would say relax a little bit, you know, don't try to keep up with the big dogs from day one and don't get pushed and rushed into stuff.
Damn! That was awesome!
Oh, man, I got to put that in a cake and like open it up when I put out the… That was awesome!
That was the push-ups, Tom and Gavin. That
was badass! Yeah, I'm going to do that for more. Yeah, everybody out there, before you talk to me, you got to do push-ups just like Bella did. That was fantastic. Great advice. Great advice. Hey, one of the last things I want to talk about was one of the first things we talked about before we went live. Your experience in Nepal made you realize something. You called it unconscious competence, I believe. Talk about that a little bit. That's a pretty cool concept.
I think, you know, before, if somebody had said to me, okay, There's going to be the biggest natural disaster that Nepal has faced in 80 years, and you're going to be in the epicenter of it, and you and your paragliding buddies are going to be out there, ground zero, and you're going to be managing, you know, triaging medical cases and setting up distribution for people and you're going to be the only one out there. I would have said we are absolutely not qualified to do that. How on earth would we ever, with no humanitarian background whatsoever, no, you know, disaster relief background, but it turned out when we got out there, well, first of all, getting out there, you're a paragliding pilot, you're used to rough roads, you're used to driving in nasty, crazy mountain conditions.
You have Jeeps. You have a four-wheel, you know, four-wheel drive. You've got at least wilderness first aid, typically more. You've got some search and rescue experience. You've got radios. You've got GPSs, flares, spots, delormes. We're all insured, usually to the teeth because we have a lot of risk. So we're not, you know, putting ourselves in a position of creating more victims out there. We've got aviation knowledge and working with helicopters. So, for example, all the heli rescues that the Indian and Nepali Army were doing, we knew to set up a windsock, mark off the area, you know, send them lat long or UTM. And they were just blown away when they came to pick up medical patients because they're like, how do you? How do you know to do this? Like some of the larger aid organizations don't even cordon off an area or set up a windsock or know how to use a GPS coordinate, you know.
And we know how to be self-sufficient out there. So we know how to stay warm and dry and feed ourselves in these places. And we're used to being in risky environments. So we're used to managing our own stress in risky, you know, activities. And we're used to landing out in these random places and having a connection with. Well, especially in Nepal with villagers and knowing how village life works and how to kind of navigate the hierarchy within a village to deal with the right people. And so suddenly we had all these core competencies out there that we recognized, OK, we're not medical doctors or disaster relief folks, but we can put together a pretty decent camp and get ourselves organized and get help to people that need it without putting ourselves in harm's way.
Because we also have situations. We're used to looking, you know, around when we're in the mountains and avoiding landslides and avoiding places that are, you know, dangerous. So all of those things kind of came together for our group out there. And, of course, we didn't do everything perfectly. And, of course, sometimes we made mistakes. But in general, I would like to encourage hopefully nobody, none of you ever find yourself in that situation. But if you do, don't be intimidated by your lack of particular experience in that field. Go for it. Band together. You know, unless you're in a first world country that has fantastic organizational ability already. If you're in a developing nation, you're probably going to be the best bet that people have, at least for the first week or two, while the larger aid organizations are getting up to speed.
So and even if you get out there and you find you just help a few people, it will be an amazing, monumental experience in your life. So, yeah, that unconscious competence that you've developed as a paragliding pilot. It's a pretty cool thing and maybe something that we're not terribly aware of.
I like, you know, all those things you just said made me realize that most of the things we kind of naturally know how to do would be really hard to teach. You know, you're talking about these aid agencies and search and rescue. We were just involved in a rescue about three weeks ago here during Nate's kind of fun comp where it was just the rescue was, it was like clockwork. It was unbelievable how fast and professional. And calm and search and rescue never even, we got him out before search and rescue even showed up. And we called that, we called them first thing, you know, like that was the thing that there's an article that's going to be coming out about this and USHPA and cross country about, you know, what we learned in the debrief and the breakdown. But the number one thing was activate your own community first, because they're going to be faster and more helpful because there's no, there's no bureaucracy.
There's no, there's no, nobody's worried about, do we have to jump through this? Hoop or that hoop, but they just go and they do it and they get it done. And that's kind of who we are as a community. So, yeah, I love that. I mean, use it. You're, you've got strengths that you don't even know are there. Well, kudos to you guys for that amazing effort. That was so awesome. Awesome to watch on Facebook. How can people get involved now? And like I said, again, folks, if you want to hear a lot more about Karma Flights and the Cloud Based Foundation and the work that Jamie and Isabella and all that crew have been doing. Over in Nepal and other places, Ecuador and places that have been hit hard by bad things, you know, check out that podcast that Judith Moll just did with Isabella on the paraglider.com. But how can people get involved there, Isabella?
Well, I'd like to first just take the opportunity to thank everybody, especially the pilot community in the States where they were amazing. Absolutely amazing. It was in moments like that. And it's in moments like those that you, you really see how our community functions as a real community. And it's it's a proper family, you know, and it's it was so heartwarming and so wonderful for us because we couldn't have actually accomplished very much on our own. I mean, we were out there, but without financial support pouring in and also, you know, just the emotional and psychological support of reading everyone's well wishes and we're standing with you and with you, that enabled us to be able to do so much that we could never have done. So I want to just take a moment really to say thank you so much.
To the thousands of people around the world, and especially the heart of it was in the in the U.S. paragliding community that supported both our effort in Nepal and like you mentioned in other hard hit areas. It means the world to people. It's impossible to overestimate what that means to people in times of crisis. So obviously, if there's a crisis that comes in the future and there always will be another one, I would say, you know, thanks in advance for if all you can do is donate five bucks. That five bucks isn't just five bucks. It's the person on the other end getting the email saying another donation has come in. And it's the psychological support that comes with all of that. And in these third world nations, five bucks means a lot. It means feeding a family for the day and putting a tarp over their head, keeping them warm and keeping them dry.
So definitely, if you're looking for an organization where pretty much dollar for dollar, your donation goes directly to the people who need it most. I can't think of, you know, of course, I'm a bit biased. But from everything I've seen. That cloud base has done thus far, it has been really, really direct and really, really beautifully organized by the cloud base board and team to make sure that your funding isn't lost in some bureaucratic nightmare, but actually goes to those who need it most. And if you have a special skill set, if you're a trail builder or a school teacher or somebody that can, you know, afford to travel to a place like Nepal for a couple of weeks, especially if you've got construction experience or those sorts of things. And you don't want to just have a regular paragliding holiday, but add a little bit of something extra to it.
Those skill sets can be really, really utilized. They're always very much appreciated. So please get in touch. We've got a form on both the cloud base website and on the Karma Flights website to contact us and tell us about your skill set and your time that you could come out. And we'd love to hear from you.
Bella, one last little thing here. I wasn't going to do this with you, but I have to because it's going to be awesome. I've been doing this. I don't know if you've listened to some of the other podcasts, but just, yeah, these are just one word. These are just quick ones. These are great. What is your favorite word? Nastrovia.
It's a good one. Does
it have to be English? No, no. That is awesome.
Definitely Nastrovia.
What is your least favorite word?
Malleable. That's also moist. Moist and malleable. Oh, God. Get it. Off me.
What turns you on and what turns you off?
Confidence, for sure. Arrogance. Confidence and arrogance. The yin and the yang.
Yes. Fantastic. And what sound or noise do you love and what sound or noise do you dislike?
I'm sure you get the same answer to this one every time. The happy sound on the Vario and the sad sounds. I
haven't gotten that one yet. That's new, actually. Yeah. Is that crazy? A lot of noise is about, you know, like the glider going through the air, but no, that's the first one of the, I don't, I don't, I don't personally put a sync alarm on my thing. I, I, I dislike that one so much. I just take that off.
Yeah. Do you know what? That's advice that Jamie gave me early on though. He's like, it's just more information. Just get over it. Don't negatively react to it. It's just more information coming in your ear. And I was like, oh, okay. Cause I used to hate it as well.
I just find it ups my stress level a little bit. I have, I, I just put it on, uh, what do I put it on? Like minus eight. I put it on a ridiculous number. So if I do hit that, I know I really got to wake up.
I just remember you one time having it and I could totally identify with this. Actually, the most hated sound in the universe is the sound that the fly master makes. Oh, you're landing and it just won't shut
up and you've
just calmed down.
Oh, it just won't shut up. You're on the ground and it's going, you suck. You're terrible. Why are you down here? And it won't shut up.
You fucked up. Oops, sorry.
No, no, it's okay. We're having a conversation. Explicit rating curse away. Yeah, no. Oh, they've, they really have to fix that. Um, what profession, uh, other than your own, would you like to attempt? What is your profession?
I don't got one of those. Uh, I don't know. God.
Um, monkey trainer, dolphin swimmer. Are those professions? Sure.
Why not? We call ourselves paraglider. That's not a profession. Oh,
that's right. I don't know. I love this. This, this life so much. I can't imagine another one.
Perfect. I love it. I love it. Um, oh, okay. Then what profession would you not like to do?
IT support for the real estate community.
Exactly what you did. I love it. My heart of hearts. I can say that. Right. Okay. And last one. And then we will sign off. Thank you so much. If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?
Nostrovia.
With a shot of vodka. And a big old warm hug.
Perfect. I love it. I love it. Uh, Bella, we will end it there. Unless you have anything you want to say, you want to have a shout out to the listeners. Any final bit of advice or.
Yeah. I want to say, say thank you to you for, for, uh, yeah, for trying to get information out there. It's so important, isn't it? For safety and just for general community feeling and fun and, and, and just keeping that, uh, that spirit alive in our sport. I think you've done a remarkable job of being, uh, an incredible brand ambassador for paragliding in general. And just, I just keep up those amazing, epic trips. I mean, what do you have planned next? Am I allowed to ask you a question? Yeah, you
are. I, I, you know, that was the problem with Alaska is I kind of shot for the moon and it worked. So now what do I do?
Are you going to do next? Well, I'm looking forward to it. I think we all are.
Thank you. Yeah. This, this year is going to be another X-Alps year. And then after that, hopefully I'm not stupid enough to do that again and I'll have to, I'll have to figure another one out. Isabella, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. That was really terrific. And, uh, until we see each other in the air again.
Thank you, Gavin. It's been a pleasure.
I
hope you enjoyed that. What a cool talk, uh, with the great Bella. Um, always, always awesome to, uh, catch up with her and see what she's doing in, uh, all these wonderful places in the world. Uh, hope you're inspired by that to go out and chase it on your own. Um, as always, all we ask for. Is a buck a show. If you got something out of this one or one of the previous episodes, uh, you can find that donation button on the website, cloudbasemayhem.com underneath any of the episodes. If you're just discovering the show for the first time, I highly recommend you go back and check out some of the previous ones. Uh, I was reminded when I just did this fly in out of, uh, pine mountain this weekend, how much people enjoyed the one with Cody Mittanck, who is right now over at the PWC at San Andre in France.
Um, there's so many good talks there. I mean, just incredible pilots. Uh, if you've ever heard of an ESP, if we haven't, uh, check out Matt Beechner's. I think that's the second or third one. He talks a lot about gliding and thermaling and skills. Uh, Nate scales always, uh, worth so many laughs. They're hearing about his 2000 X-Alps campaign and taking pictures of waypoints. Mads Syndergaard, uh, the author, flying rags to glory, just, uh, epic comp pilot and flew with us out here at the U S nationals last year in the Sierras. Um. So many great shows go back, check them out, uh, download them to your phone for those long drives to launch. And, uh, we'll see you on the next show. Thanks very much. Cheers.