You need time, and if you have to use your brain to analyze and get solution, maybe you will not have the time. So, as more you're prepared technically, mean you will have a better chance to survive like massive ground handling and a lot of simulation like SIV, or even doing on your own when you're high collapsing the wing on the ground while ground handling in the air, doing all this stuff with your glider, and then you don't need to think; you will be reacting instinctively, and that will be really, really best friend for you. If you can work if people can work on that I think that will be really really good for everyone. Some
Fantastic advice there from the great Veselin Ovcharov, a Bulgarian acro pilot and cross country pilot, Red Bull athlete. That's he and I had a great talk; you're going to love this show. Before we get into it, just wanted to apologize for the long delay over the Christmas holidays. Tried to track down a number of different people for, for podcasts, and have done so now, but it was pretty tricky over the holidays, so this one was tough to edit. Got some tough sound with doing it over Skype, and he had a big crack on fire going on in the background, which sounded lovely actually. But anyway, that was, it was kind of tough to do, so apologize for the long delay, but we got some great shows now and coming up for you in the next few weeks that you're going to really enjoy. It really appreciate all the feedback; got some fantastic feedback over the holidays from my sister, who's an NPR producer and reporter.
She gave me a lot of valuable advice, so I think we can look forward to these just getting better and better. Got some great personalities and people lined up; just got back from Mexico. Heard from a lot of people down there that these are really impacting them in a positive way, so that's really inspiring. Helps me keep going. Thank you so much. Thank you also for all of your generous donations; they go a long way. I'm actually building a sound room here, so we're going to take this to the next level here, hopefully in the next few weeks. That's so fantastic. Personality? Great guy. We had a really cool talk. Look forward to doing some projects with him in the future. Thanks to Igor Maui, who put me on to him, but he's just got a lot of good stuff to do. one great piece of advice after another in this show, uh, kind of seeming the bridge between acro and cross country and safety, and we get into all kinds of good stuff.
So, without going into it here, we're just going to get right into it, uh, without further ado. That's so awkward. Great.
to, uh, finally get you on the horn here. You're a long ways away from me in terms of time zones. In Bulgaria, we've been trying to do this for weeks. I'm excited to, uh, finally get a chance to talk to you.
Same, same. Really exciting, uh, regarding the different location and the huge distance between us, and I'm very, very keen to, to have this chat with you because I don't know if you can ask me more interesting questions, or maybe I can ask you also tons of super interesting questions because your background is really, really, uh, impressive and adventurous, and we're all about this, doing this stuff. So for me, it would be a pleasure to chat about, yeah.
You know, I, I was, uh, totally wrapped up in the last few nights watching your videos, uh, flytheearth.com. I know you use your website and reading your bio on the Red Bull page. Um, my gosh, man, you have, you have really conquered the earth in terms of paragliding. How did you get into all this, well?
Uh, actually, I never had the interest of traveling. Even in school, I was really bad in geography; I didn't know all the countries. So all the magic came, I think, from paragliding—that sense of freedom, which pushed me to to to far places and to meet new amazing friends. I think, I think that was the trigger. And and later on, as you know from your side, this is like a disease; you you keep searching for a more beautiful and new place and new friends, and it's like a never-ending story. It's
like that, it's you can never scratch, isn't it?
No, yeah, it's—it's—it's strange because sometimes we find a perfect, perfect spot that everything is so, so sweet, and the people and everything, the life, and you basically should stay there. If you have intelligence, you should settle. But somehow, we, we leave that comfort and beauty, and we, we look for another place like that. This is kind of crazy that
That is crazy. I'm trying more and more and more this, this at this time in my life, to just stay put more, you know, because I live in such a special place and, um, you know, I, I feel like I could spend my whole life just exploring my own backyard. But you, you got, you started exploring it sounds like quite early. Your father got you into skiing when you were like three, I think. And how did, how did you go from that, uh, and it sounds like studying sports, to finding paragliding? How did you, what was the kind of impetus there?
Um, yeah, that's true. I, I was introduced by my father because the, the city we're living, the capital Sofia, is right next to a big mountain and I could always go in the weekends and do ski. And later on, when the snowboarder appear, I start snowboarding. And then, when I was in the mountain, I started to see one of the first guys in the country here. It was like in the early 90s watching their paragliders, but was looking very different. As you can remember, in the early days, they were colorful, small harness, look very dodgy and stuff, you know? And I was very, very impressed by this picture. I was like, I was like, "Wow, I have to try one day." And then, and then I, I was lucky to, to end up with a friend in the university and he was very different.
We were in the mountain, he was looking very weird and different. I go to talk to him and he tell me, "I'm flying." I said, "I'm also flying with my snowboard, like 20 meters sometimes, more, but it's finishing a lot of time with pain." And he said, "No, paragliding is very easy to fly and you don't have pain." And I was like, "Wow, that's my, that's my contact." And then I make a present to myself. The guy told me that he think that I will never call him back, but I, I couldn't resist. I went to make a present for my birthday on when I was 18, and in that time was no YouTube, no no real source to see how it looks, how it goes, and I took some crazy friends from the neighborhood to be like a group to motivate each other, and then the rest is history.
I just start doing that every day since, since the introducing
And how old are you at the time I...
was 18 and now I'm 33, 30, yeah, am I'm 33
You're exactly 10 years younger than I am. The, yeah, so you, you've been flying about 15 years, yeah.
Exactly like that, yeah, and
Was the... was the initial flying, um, were you... did you get into acro right away? Or, uh, how... what were those first few years? What did they look like? The
First few years were totally just being amazed by, uh, easy flying and, uh, in that time, the community was really like close. There were just small group of people that were going together on the places, so that was a big part of of my addiction into the sport because the the ambient with these nice people all together was a really special part. And we had one, uh, pioneer in the early days, his name is Dimitri Miko Mitsu, his nickname is Mitsu. He's a legend. He's the first guy in Bulgaria who brought distance flying and acrobatic flying. Before that, the people were flying like mosquito in the room, they didn't know what to do, and he was the first guy who started going to pita back to the to the country.
So this guy has a big part of inspiring me, but still, I entered the acro in the 2006, few years later, like almost six years later, after my first flight, I went to Nepal to extend my season because in Bulgaria had a pretty large season, but in the winter it's very hard to fly and no thermals, so I say I cannot wait anymore and watch Moyes, I'm going to Nepal with little money and believe that I'm gonna work and train more there, and it was like a joke because we had a, I had a friend there who was like pushing me like, "Ah, come on, you should do that, you cannot do that, I think you're scared," and I was like, "Dude, I'm more focused on cross country, you know?" But he was keep joking and I
approved my friend, and then I started trying some basic acro like helicopter and I find it really like fun and much more easy payback, you know? Because in cross country is like a story, sometimes we invest so much and we can be like not really 100 satisfied because the condition and timing and so on, and acrobatic is like almost taking a beer, like drinking alcohol, it's, it's for sure it will affect you most probably positive, I
like that so
I was very lucky, or unlucky, because I was in a, you know, sharp peak of my motivation to do cross country, and I was training actually to go to Australia to a world championship. In that time, I was first in the league, so they were supposed to pay me, but they didn't pay me to go in the federation. So I stood in Nepal, I trained more, and and that's how I became acropilot and
How did so? When did the Red Bull thing happen? How did you become a Red Bull pilot, man?
The story is long, like everyone's, but this my one. I felt like really like part of a scenario or a movie. It was a very, very special moment. Uh, I was, I was like, um, a few years before that, I was trying to get into professional. I wanted to leave the tandem lifestyle. I make so much good friends and happy people, and it was a good work, even better money, but I somehow wanted to, to do this work on travel, not just to visit same places and work same, same job. I get some sponsors, uh, quite, uh, quickly after I left my tandem work, and they were actually better sponsors than now. I mean, they were giving me more money because they were just bigger, like Italian big company, but they were only focused on my idea and project to go to Pakistan.
We, we have a common friend with you, Brad Sanders, you know Brad? Sure. So he told me a big story about Pakistan, and I was super inspired to visit this place, and I was keep trying, keep trying, but four years in a row, four years in a row, I was not able to go because of a visa problem here in Bulgaria, because our two countries, Pakistan and Bulgaria, had some internal conflict and was not really definitive and it was not clear, and they was always rejecting my visa application, always without saying why. And I was like really, like frustrated, because we get like hundreds, thousands of emails sometimes, even tens of conference call with people all over the world, like Horatio and other, other colleagues.
We wanted to go together, but in the end I couldn't go, and that happened so many times that my sponsors say, "You know, we really like you, but goodbye." So, so I, I lose my sponsors. I, I had some other personal issues, you know, and then my brother almost died in front of me, crashed with the, with a paraglider in the takeoff in strong wind. So I was really down, and I was facing a winter to became, to stay in the winter, as normally I travel in the winter, because I had some passport issue. It's a very long story, because 2006, when I went to Nepal, I took my brother's passport because I have a twin brother.
Yeah, I wanted to go train in the same time. If the federation pay me to go to Australia, my brother go to next country, because we don't have embassy here, he go to next country, issue my visa. So I take, I come back, I take my passport, visa, and go to Australia, and that never happened. But something else happened when I came back six months later. Someone told to the police, I still don't know who, who is this amazing person, because it's no crime, it's just a motivational thing, and they caught me. And it's not like in the states, in Bulgaria they try to, try to, to cheat you, to tell you that, tell the truth, if it's nothing, you just pay a fine and you go. And I did that, as I didn't do anything criminal by law. If you don't harm anyone, or if you don't kill anyone, this, this crime is just like stupid mistake, and it's not punishable, but they, they punished me, and I was in a process seven years
Seven years, seven years. I, I spent money for my family for 10 competition to Australia, you know, I never went anywhere, just coming back to Bulgaria, and it was my life was pretty nightmarish, seven years. So all that finish when I lose my sponsorship and my brother was almost killed, and this also finished this process, and they've punished me with the probation, six months to stay in the winter to signature every day and talk with a person. So all that happened, all that happened, and uh, I was spending my last note of money, like two and a half euro, and I was with a colleague and a neighbor who is also having interesting story. He, he, he was a millionaire and really exciting sportsman, and he fell it.
So we were together laughing on irony of life and spending this last money with him, and I said to the woman in buying a sandwich, "Keep the" She crossed her face and she said, "Oh, today's your day," and I said, "Oh, we'll see." And 10 minutes later, they called me from Red Bull.
You're kidding! You were down to literally zero? Yeah, I love it. That is fantastic. Okay, so we got—we got to talk about a couple things here. One, uh, your brother. What happened, uh?
He, he was lucky because he could be dead. He, he just had a bad fracture of the right hand wrist and his right foot, all that. Uh, it's healed now. It's not like 100% the same, but it's already flying and just a bad memory and and
Was he on this kind of the same track? Was he kind of at your level, or is he at your level? He's in terms of acro and flying.
Unfortunately, not. He never really followed me from the beginning, which made him so separate. He was very dedicated to another crazy sport, the pool like billiard. He was one of the best in the world, so he, he decided to fly 10 years later, and now he's just catching me. He's dropping me with a tandem, he's flying some tandem, doing some cross country and basic acro, but he's far from, uh, from my enthusiasm and level so far, but
Clearly, it runs in the family that you, um, you mentioned their training. We actually, you know, several weeks ago, when I was supposed to interview you for the first time and have this talk, I put out a post on Facebook, uh, that if anybody had any questions for you—and I've got a long list—but one of them, um, is, how do you approach training? Because the disciplines, uh, I'm always really fascinated to talk to pilots that, uh, you know, pardon the term, but go both ways. You know, I know you're, you're pretty passionate about cross country as well; you just returned from some flying, some big flights in Brazil, which we'll get into here in a little bit. But how do you approach your training? I know recently you've been doing some towing, um, but, uh, you know, how, how did you get started with your training? And how did you get from, you know, taking those first flights and maybe having a tandem business in Bulgaria to becoming, I believe you were the first, first Bulgarian to nail the infinite and, uh, and you know, obviously becoming a Red Bull pilot, which is, there's no mean feat in itself.
Uh, how did that, can you walk me through some of that progression, uh?
I think the progression with me happened really, really, uh, with baby steps and slow, without any intention to go further. I was just trying to learn things on my own because in the that moment was not much knowledge shared outside, like online, and I was, I was trying to, to, to make really simple stuff from, from easy to difficult, little by little, with a very, very small baby steps. And even nowadays, when I propose that concept to friends who want to learn and ask me questions, they seem like untrustful and like, "Come on, it's too old school," and they just go big and learn everything for one month. But that was not possible before; we couldn't analyze our mistakes, we didn't have the small cameras, we didn't have the good equipment.
So my progression was with a lot of flights, a lot of repeating, a lot of understanding, and massive training. Yeah, I don't count, but it's been a while. I flew every day, every day as much as I can to, to, to get this level. And now my training is more about trying to catch up the, the, the young guys, which are, which are more, more settled. They don't travel so much, and they, they are so motivated, and they invent every month, every few months, some new moves and these twisted, twisted moves now. So my training now is more trying to catch up things, but not really, uh, doing my own stuff because I, I fall a little bit behind with the training, uh, with the traveling story, and, and so on is
Your are your kind of goals then? It sounds like we've got a crackling fire in the background. That sounds lovely; I wish I had one going myself. Um, are are your uh, are your goals then with with paragliding now, is it more towards the competition end of things and and you know, it on the acro, on the World Cup, or is it more towards the travel and exploration and filmmaking?
Actually, it never been to a competition. It's, it's, it's a strange thing that even this is a major because the first impression and feeling of this sport was the freedom, and when we feel free, free, we don't want to compare with anyone, even if that mean progress to, to certain extent of the sport. I never was excited to compete, but of course I tried. In cross country, I get some success quite from the beginning, and then I was more like, more like trying to run out of this to, to, to get back again to the, this pure freedom feeling. And that's how I get it with acro.
It was like, uh, like a new, new religion for me. I was really like on my own, but then I need to get up with the, to catch up with the equipment, and that's, that's the thing which put me back in the competition mode and all the sponsorship. So I'm not really interested to, to, to, to do a lot of competition, but it's a important part for my sponsors and also for the people who are competing with me. So I, I assume it's, it's good for me to be cutting edge on a technical side and, of course, safety. But, uh, from inside I'm more like keen to to do travels and to do new adventure projects with friends and and, of course, filming is is a really rewarding part because it's not just a blind memory, it's something you can see back and share with everyone and
Do you see, uh, you said you're 33, being able to cover, you know, paragliding and sponsorship, do you see it being able to cover your lifestyle? Do you have a family, uh,
I don't have kids and wife; I have a girlfriend and I have my two brothers. One of them live in Germany and my mother and my father. Luckily, they're independent and healthy, so I don't need to worry too much and my expenses are very low. Just basically have to feed myself and the biggest support and help, it's funny, but it's coming not from the sponsors because sponsors pay my tickets and maybe my sandwiches around the world, but all the other expenses are coming from the community and the friends. Like, often, often I'm a host for free in a friends paragliding friends and they give me transport and logistic support for free. So basically, I'm super lucky to leave this, uh, this era because probably in the future will be more commercial and we won't have this, uh, pure family, uh, vibe around the world.
Switching gears just a little bit here, you were talking about, you know, trying to catch up with the younger guys who are coming up with new maneuvers and and that kind of thing all the time. Are you working on something that, uh, the the world hasn't seen? Or how do you, how do you become kind of Raul Rodriguez and and and actually create new moves?
Um, if I understand right, I'm—I'm currently trying to catch up all the moves which are actually backwards, like twisted, twisted, and I do, like, let's say, a big part of it, but not everything. And for a first time, I have a really small loaded glider which allowed me to to learn that, because sometimes if you mistaken, the glider is not pressurized, it will collapse and disappear more easy. So first time I have this right glider to to make this step. And the new thing, I think the new thing is the choreography, like the transition, because seems that we have all the movements in all the axes, but the transition from one maneuver to another variating, and it's like a big door for for us to play.
And that's what I'm trying to do in different transitions which are not usual, like, for example, if you do sat to heli, it's something usual, or the opposite as well. But if you do, like, uh, let's say, uh, anti-rhythmic, and it's really on the side, and do it to heli, it's—it's a much more, uh, different transition, and um, something which we can explore. And about Raul, I think he's, uh, the inspiration for all this sport, and, uh, I was with him in Dubai, and he's still in really amazing shape, even that he's not flying as much as the young guys. And I think he's—his success and progression was that he was so passionate about the sport, and he spent enough time to understand what's possible.
Yeah,
Do you have a kind of a scariest maneuver? Is there, is there something you're working on in terms of the things you're working on right now that gives you the kind of heebie-jeebies?
Sure, sure. I mean, when you're rusty and you didn't fly a long time, everything feels scary. And I'm, uh, I'm trying to equalize my sights because I do everything on the right side, but not exactly everything on the left side, and the left side is kind of more scary. But then, when I try, it feels even easier, so it's really funny to, to explore that part how
What would you recommend for somebody? So, I'm somebody who's actually would fall into this category, you know. I, I took an acro course in Oludeniz in Turkey through a friend of Jocky Sanderson a few years back, and it's one of these things where I've just always wanted to explore acro more than I do because I don't live in a very good place for acro. I'm, I'm much more of a cross country pilot, but I understand how valuable acro is. So, I've been doing some towing down in the desert in Salt Lake with a good friend of mine who's, um, he's a master of those things, he's a master of acro who's a recently learned the infinite and really enjoying it. But how, what would you recommend, uh, for people that are that want to explore acro? How should one approach acro? How should one get into it?
I think it's very nice and important for everyone to do, and everyone is capable of doing it. There is no secrets, and there is no superpower to do that; you just need to start from the very basic. Like, first of all, whatever glider you fly, even if it's comb glider, you should store it hundreds of hundreds of time to be really comfortable with the full stall, to be able to fall with a full stall.
With, you know, any condition—turbulent, windy, or terrain—rough terrain below, you should be comfortable with the full stall and then negative maneuvers. You should start doing negative spin and, of course, afterwards is the most important to do wing overs, really nice wing overs. And then the rest, you're gonna learn it for one or two weeks; the rest is just, you know, different difference of this fundamental. If you do a really nice solid training—a full stall, negative spin, and wing overs—then the rest is super easy. How
Does how do you stay motivated with acro? One of the things that I've always been curious about, uh, when I was, I've gone to St. Hilaire a few times for the festival for a coupe car, and when you first see Acro as a spectator, it is just incredible. But after about 10, 15 minutes, it's like, "Okay, yeah, I've seen all that," you know? They—they even if it's a really beautifully choreographed set of, you know, from heli to spin to, uh, you know, loop to infinite, uh, you know, but after a while as a spectator, you're kind of like, "Okay, that's, you know, I've seen all that stuff." How—how does that change when you're the pilot? How do you stay motivated to, um, I guess, take short flights? That's what always baffles me because, you know, the beauty about cross country is sometimes you're in the air for eight, nine, ten hours.
Um, talk about that a little bit. Yeah.
That's really correct. It's totally true that, uh, first of all, like everything, if we're watching everything, maybe just some sports are exception, like football, but whatever you watch, like a fan or spectator, it became very quickly boring. And on the other hand, for the people who are doing it as well, and the difference in the thrill, it's gonna come if you do it slightly differently, like more closer to the ground, uh, try new moves, you know, basically just go beyond your your tolerance and your comfort zone. That's gonna bring you the new, the new like spices inside, but you cannot go too far in the air that way because you're gonna kill yourself.
And probably that's one of the reason why I'm not training all the time, and that's why I'm running behind the young boys now, because I don't want to do it too much all the time because then you have to do new things, you have to take new risk in order to get the same feeling. Sometimes it's more, more like, um, smart and more, more like joyful just to, to take a week break, do something else, and then go back to flying, and you're gonna have the same pleasure. And of course, the new places is gonna change a lot, the feeling when you have new landscape and new, new background, new friends to share with, that, that also helps do
You have a... do you have a favorite place to fly?
There are so many; my favorite is the one I never been I
Love it! Fantastic, fantastic. And, and have you ever, have you ever had any accidents, uh?
No, I, I actually, I'm so lucky because I was taking care with the slow progression. I never really hurt myself from paragliding and don't have even a big scratch. My biggest scarves are from dogs. Once I was attacked by two dogs, so but cross country, it's, it's really much more giving about that, you know, because we can exactly spend more hours in the sky and and see more of, of the, of the terrain. And my dream and hope for the future is to, to find good places, like one of the top places, which are in my mind is in your country in Owens Valley, and some of the other places are, I think, I think is in Turkey. There are a few places which can provide such a strong condition that you can do actually the, the two best discipline together, like cross country and acro.
We can do it like acro cross, and my dream, and I'm working on that project, is to make a online subscription for people around the world. No, no judges, nothing, everything is online and, and totally transparent, and we can try to fly some distance with acro glider and do maneuvers on the way. That will deliver you the best, the best feeling, because sometimes in cross country I feel so nice, the altitude is great, everything is perfect, but then I want to push something a little bit more. Just when you feel on the peak of this moment, you want to go a little bit wild, and then you don't want to hurt the glider and you cannot do this. And that same with that acro, when it's so nice that you can stay up and down for hours, then you want to move. You don't want to stay in the same bush there, you want to move.
And, and that's something we can actually do. I've done it. 2007, I close a 103 kilometer task in Turkey without instruments and hundreds of maneuvers on the way with the 17 square meter ah
That's a riot, I love it. Um, speaking of cross country, uh, you were just down in Brazil. Sounded like you and Andre, a very good mutual friend of ours, he was, uh, Aaron Garigati supporter in the ex-alps. Um, you, you had, uh, it sounds like a scary flight or a scary landing or something in Brazil, but you guys were, you guys were pushing for some pretty good distance down there.
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I know Andre, and he tell me so many good stories about you. Actually, that's how I get to know you a little bit more. And, uh, yeah, we, we went with him, uh, with the dream to make something big, like maybe four or five hundred or even more. I was really like, um, confused. I thought I had the wrong impression. I thought Quixadá and North Brazil basically is like paradise and super easy. You can take the door from the fridge and fly all day without any problems. So, I, I, me and him, we didn't get too serious with the preparation about equipment. We get some old dodgy equipment, which was really not safe. People were giving us applauses.
We were eating; I was eating some big frontos from seven in the morning, and uh, was really hard to keep the glider in that place. And the worst thing was that the glider were not gliding; they were so that we were gliding worse than a DHV one-two, worse than a school glider. So that was a bit of a challenge. And and the other challenge is that the place is so rough, you're actually able to fly from sunrise but till the middle of the day or till the afternoon, you're crawling over the terrain and there is almost no landing and everywhere is lee side, so it's like a nightmare. It's like a mental challenge, yeah.
This is, this I didn't know, you know, it's I, I thought the same thing, you know, when they, when they go down to Texas to try for these world records, you just think of it as a, you know, get up in the morning and, and, you know, kind of survive for the first couple hours and then just basically get blown, and whoever can get blown the farthest, it wins, you know, but it's a, but then when you hear about it, you hear about fences and a lot of people with guns and nowhere to land and cactus and snakes, and it actually sounds in some ways pretty terrifying in a lot of places where you can't land, and I didn't know that about, uh, Quixadá and Brazil, so it's kind of, it sounds similar very
Very similar and exciting, and you need time, need time to get used to it. And for sure, Quixadá and this place will change you. You gotta rather leave early and give
it a go and change your tolerance, and you're gonna start flying like a bird, trusting hundred percent even more your vision for the conditions, because you need to rely on that; otherwise, there's no landings, and it's really tough. It was like a military experience; we stayed there 50 days, waking up every day 4:35 o'clock and going to bed almost midnight, so it's really, really tough experience, but the reward is just difficult to describe. The feeling when you finish with the set after so many hours of flying in kilometers, you feel like really like part of the nature, wow.
That's some serious dedication, day after day. Uh, that's—that's a hard thing to do, especially when you—you're going one way, so that means you're driving all night to get back, and then you're up and at it again the next day.
Exactly, sometimes we had short flights like 100 kilometers. You, you often and bomb out around 100, a little bit more before midday, which is funny because normally you take off in Europe that time. And then one day, 120 kilometers straight distance, we drove more than a thousand on dirt road, so that's difficult and also expensive. But, uh, you know, in the end, is really worth it. And I think I will go back with a better equipment, and there is also a new place that they discover. You see, they issue it in the Cross Country Magazine. The new spot is called Tasima. Yeah, it's even more tempting to to try because it's a easier beginning, and you can fly with stronger winds, and then you connect with the Kishada route.
And yeah, the only difference that there, you're close to the ocean and you need to be patient, and Kishada, you, you fly every day.
Um, tell me about your scary moment down there, but it sounded like from the blog that you... it was, uh, is it in the trees? Or how it sounded like you had a kind of a crash, yeah?
I wanted to to avoid that, not to scare people, but you remember it and I will never forget. For sure, that was the first time in my life that I fell like a pier from the tree with the cross country wing. Normally, I never pull rescue or crash with cross country wing, but that time it happens because we were very, very low with a strong wind, like almost 40 kilometers strong wind, turbulent, unformed thermals, broken and tight. And I was with a small group which were unfortunately not following my direction of turning as I was first in the thermal. Then I start to running in my separate course and one of the guys were following me, the guy with Enzo and turning, keep turning in the opposite direction and even shout me in the one of the closest passing to each other and I said, "Okay dude, no problem," and I just make a quarter of a spin like a gentle comma, you know, with a with a break just
And then I looked up and my glider had a double cravat, one from the left and one from the right, boat more than 30 percent, and the glider was parachuting and I was like, less than, uh, 80 meters, no, no, really good to pull the reserve, and I was like, shit, like I couldn't believe that's happening, and I started instinctively pumping the brakes, releasing and pumping and releasing and pumping was with cravat, so I couldn't go for the speed bar. I was just trying to restart the glider, not with a full stall because no, no altitude, and the glider recovered in the very, very last moment, uh, shoots and turned me with the wind, and I was like 90 degrees, like wing over with the wind, and then swinging into the dry forest.
Luckily, everything else was going to kill me, but this dry forest, like six, seven meter high trees and some cactuses, which I didn't hit. Luckily, these trees stopped me, and I was so lucky, just a small injury, like pain in the neck, pain in the shoulder, in the, in the knee, in the ankle, and I couldn't believe that happened. The pilot came to help. I was really upset with him because I felt like it happened because of him, but it was many factors. It was more than two, three factors. What kills people normally? You know, you're flying a dodgy glider, you're doing some bullshit, very low people taking your way, so on and so on, and and then I, I was resting for a week, and then I decided to try again.
This glider, I didn't want to be scared from something, and I tried the glider and make some flights, and then in one of those flights, in front the takeoff, it happened the same, but this time I didn't do any spin, any any deep break, just the glider from a turbulence make collapse one side, the other side like big years. I was hands up, and then the glider went to the deep stall, then I was really like more in a rush because behind me were boulders and stronger wind, so I immediately full stall, it recover, it land, and throw the glider. I was gonna
Say, I hope you burned that thing.
No, I left it to the guys to make a shadow like a tent, yeah.
Exactly. That does that doesn't sound good. That's a good lesson in using, uh, good gear. A person like yourself understands intimately spins and stalls and all these kind of things. I mean, if you can't, if you're losing a glider, then that thing's a piece of it.
was strange to analyze why it's happening. The material is quite crispy and new, but probably because it's 2011 and he's been in the trees from the previous owner and so on. Something was not nice with the glider, and then I borrowed from Kevin, from a Swiss pilot, very old, totally beat-up Mantra 6. Even in the last flight when we did the record with him, I get some collapse and the glider was in the air and the lines broke, and I was like, "Oh, maybe gonna land," but then the glider recovered and I flew with the broken lines, and I was feeling like flying a plane, even flying a very old beat-up DHV23, but without any serious problem. This glider showed me what is flying, yeah.
That's a nice wing as well, I have to admit. I'm maybe a guy, but that is a beautiful wing.
Going back to acro just a little bit, to me, you know, when I do, uh, when I do acro, I find it pretty tiring. You know, even just a quick, uh, you know, a 3,000-foot toe or something, and and you know, there's so much mental focus. Uh, you know, typically three or four runs in a day is is about all my mind can handle, I find. Then, after that, I get kind of sloppy and slow. Uh, are there are there, uh, is that the same for when you're a professional acro pilot? Do you still find it quite tiring? And if so, how do you, how do you train for that? Yeah,
For sure, when I'm a little bit rusty, I didn't fly a long time. I felt, I felt the same, like very tiring after three, four flights. For sure, if you do it nice, the excitement will help you to continue, and even if you do bad, this is also kind of motivation, and it's something you need to go through with totally like a blind push, you know? You need to keep pushing, you know? It's sometimes it's not pleasant, but then the pleasure will come. Like they say, the appetite is coming with eating. If we just keep this, uh, this, uh, indicator stop us, then we will never really change, which is still fine. But if we want to learn more and to enjoy more, we need to, to push more and find a better place, like no turbulence, good safety level, that always helps.
Good altitude, you can stop unaccompanied to analyze, watch the videos, that, that can help you to, to see that you didn't been in danger, nothing really bad happened. Sometimes we are like excited or stressed a little bit, then we watch the video and like, come on, like nothing really bad happened. To analyze, you need to be patient, you need to push. For sure, physical condition, it's good to, to have as you are fit. If we're more fit, it's even better. We need to do some exercise, like physical exercise, that always helping do
You do, you train physically for your sport, yes?
It's, I find out that it's helping me a lot, but not every day, really. From time to time, and basic stuff like pull up and push-ups do
What do you, um, do you recognize, uh, like, oh, okay, I need to back off here? Do you have, like, uh, you know, times where you really recognize, like, hey, I'm pushing too hard of
Course, it's happened. Sometimes I throw rescue like this if you are just pushing because you want to catch up because some schedule, you want to be in shape for this or that, but you don't have the time. That could be a bad, bad combination when you're not—when you're hungry, if you're starving, if it's—if you're overheated, if it's hot. You really should know when is this moment and stop. That's very, very important if
You had times in your career, or in the past 15 years, where you've, uh, either have you gotten, you know, so scared you've had to back away? You mentioned, you know, that was a really scary time in Brazil, uh, and it sounds like you got back into it kind of a week later, and that was more, uh, gear-oriented. But have you ever had a time where you're really pretty scared of the sport and had to go away, uh?
I had many scary moments, which not supposed to push me back, but uh, we are normally scared from the unknown, if you don't know, if we don't know what what really happens. But if we can analyze even a fatality of a friend or something, if we can analyze, this should make us more confident than and safe than than the opposite. We just need to analyze what happened, and as it happens in my past, I fall into a glider really close to the ground a few times. One of them, I was over the water, luckily, and I, I almost died, but nothing happened because the water saved me. And in the next day, I went to try the same because I knew was not my mistake, was a bad glider, and so on.
And uh, it's very important to trust yourself, to rely on your experience, and to be sure that you analyze correct do
You have a coach, no?
I wish I, I had even in almost any other sport as I had had a coach, and that's make me a weird feeling about because I feel like now days when everything is promoted like schools, even I'm teaching people, I feel like there's something wrong because I, that was not the way I learned it, but I'm pretty sure if you have a coach at least you can learn it faster. I'm afraid that sometimes the coaching and the teaching can push people before they have the simple understanding, and I believe it's found for, uh, for this sport because it's not difficult, it's not physical, it's like pulling left and right. There is no such easy sport out there like this one, and it's more mental, but we need to to have the simple understanding, and then we don't really need much coaching, but for sure it's nice.
I recommend if people can use a coach which is professional, it will, it will save them time, yeah.
I think you know, as as you get, you know, as you progress and start ticking off, you know, higher and higher boxes, um, I think we forget about how important that—not really forget, but that, that how important that progression is. Uh, I think that, you know, I, I've said for a long time that I'm not going to be a coach, but I'm going to—I can't imagine, you know, even doing any 5k cross country without having a really solid SIV background. Um, you know, talk to me about safety and and how, you know, what, what advice would you give your 50-hour self, you know, when you look back at your career, um, and mistakes that we all make, um, you know, what could you have approached differently?
I
That's something what I would recommend now to my friends and students, which is really vital I think, and can save you because not every time the lucky will be on your side. And there are three type of people from my observation in the sport, like two type of them they had panic, one of them blockade, the other just overreact. And even if you're from the third part, which is not having time to be scared, just watching and analyzing, sometimes you need time. And if you have to use your brain to analyze and get solution, maybe you will not have the time. So as more you're prepared technically mean you will have a bit better chance to survive, like massive ground handling and a lot of simulation like SIV, or even doing on your own when you're high, collapsing the wing on the ground while ground handling in the air, doing all this stuff with your glider will give you reflexes and muscle memory.
And then you don't need to think, you will be reacting instinctively, and that will be really, really a best friend for you. If you can work, if people can work on that, I think that will be really, really good for, for everyone. I
think that's beautifully said. You know, it's—it seems to me like that's the real tie and connection between acro and cross country. You know, the—the two disciplines are really not so separate, are they? I mean, I think to again and again we see the pilots that do really well if flying cross country are also really good at flying cross country, and I think that's the real tie and connection between good acro pilots and I think vice versa, do—would you—would you agree with that?
Absolutely, I always say to a friend, especially those who are more cross country orientated, when they ask like, "How to do this and that?" For example, to work in a broken thermal, to uh, to uh, to to make one broken thermal to the cloud and to work in this condition, this is more difficult than doing acro. That technically like, you need more feeling, more understanding, and also you work with metrology and terrains. You basically have more knowledge than an acro pilot. The accru is just like gymnastics; it's super easy, it's more easy, but they both fit. In the beginning, basic acro stuff will give you a really relaxed feeling in turbulent condition, but then if you develop this feeling with cross country later, you can learn acro very quickly.
Like, that helps me so much because I had the massive cross country experience and some basic acro experience. When I decide to learn was just easy, even on my own without coach, what
excites you more now, acro or cross country? I
think they're both exciting if we do it in a in a new new dimension, like if we go to fly in a new place, for sure it's super exciting. If I have to try some new maneuver, is going to be super excited. We decide which is the most exciting, but for me, cross country is the real passion.
When, when I look at your, I was exploring your website last night, flytheearth.com, which I would encourage our, our listeners to check out. It's phenomenal, and your, your films and videos are just amazing, very, very inspiring. Um, you, you've been all over the place, uh, South America, North America, all over Africa. What are your plans this year?
Um, I have a really nice plan to go to Venezuela to jump from the waterfall because I started there, yeah, in Jufos. I started base jumping a few years ago, and now it's like kind of my hobby, something which puts me away from all the stress and, you know, material stuff and so on. So that's the first thing I want to do, jump from the waterfall, and then later, hopefully, to go to California to finish my education with the wingsuit because I want to be capable for the summer to jump from the mountain with the wingsuit. And, uh, for the summer, the plan is Pakistan again, plus the World Cup Acro Tour, and that's more or less about, yeah, hopefully in the next winter.
So I mean, October, November next year, hopefully I will visit France, in Australia, and New Zealand because I never been there. I
I find it hysterical that you, you undertake base jumping to get away from the stress. I love it, that's fantastic. Um, you and I have quite similar personalities. Um, you'll, you'll have to, if you want to jump from the waterfall, you'll have to jump from the, if you haven't, you'll have to go back and listen to, I think it was number three or four. Uh, I did a great, uh, podcast with, uh, uh, Jeff Shapiro. Uh, you, you may know him, he's a very famous hang glider and wingsuit base jumper who's unfortunately lost a lot of friends in the sport, so I hope you're taking that on with a lot of care. Yes,
Yes, yes, yes, I do. It wipes.
out a lot of a lot of good folks
Yeah, it's amazing, person. I, I'm, I met him in Switzerland, and I know for his losses, it's, it's, uh, it's strange because this sport by basic is super safe. It's more, it's taken less, less, uh, victims than paragliding, than, than cars, than anything. But because it's so different, that we are so focused on the, on the fatalities. But, uh, once I watched the statistic list, and I found that just one case was registered like a gear malfunction; everything else was human error. And that's something we can do every day driving our car. But, uh, yeah, that's why I want to keep the base jumping really like, for, for a hobby, just like taking a chocolate from time to time.
Because if you start pushing it into a far levels, for sure you're gonna mistake, and that's what kills you.
Yeah, the mistakes are very unforgiving in that sport with your own approach then, to when you have the pressure of sponsorship and filming and that kind of thing with paragliding and with acro, how do you, uh, how do you define that line? How do you make sure you don't go over it? I
define that line that for a moment in the last years, I felt like what was inspiring me and what was my dream is start to turn more like into a job. And then I, I define that I need to do it less frequent, you know? I need to put less effort in order to remember what I was doing it, because if we push too much, we feel like someone is, is pushing us to do that, but actually we choose to do it. We can, we can quit. There is no contract which you cannot quit, so we need to do to do it, I think, less frequent and then spend more time with the friends to remember again what was our dream.
So I've had a lot of people, a lot of friends that have gone through, you know, quite scary times or maybe an accident, uh, and then suddenly they realize that, uh, they still want to do it, but it's not fun, um, and it's not safe. If it's not fun, I believe that firmly, but how do, um, how, how can people make it fun again? I
Think everything has expiration date, even such a beautiful passion which we discover, and if we squeeze it so far, of course we'll receive less. And more fun we can do it like seeing it from different perspective, make the travels maybe not with professional friends, but with beginners to teach them, or start new sport like I start with the base jumping. That's put me in this pure mode of just being happy with the small things. I think this is a common human state that we start to feel like confused from what was giving us direction. It's, it's a common sense for the human mind. I couldn't
Agree more. That's, that's fantastic. I think that, you know, um, there's a lot to be said for hunger, isn't there? I mean, I think that, uh, you know, if you mix in other things that you're also passionate about, you can come back to it with a lot more, I guess, appreciation. Exactly.
Exactly, yeah, because everything is beautiful. Even playing ping pong or tennis with your friend could be joyful and exciting, as base jumping is is depend how often we're doing it and what's the state when we're doing it
Fantastic, um, well, maybe we'll leave it right there. That was, it was really fantastic. I have, uh, some questions that came through a very good friend of mine who lives in, in Innsbruck, uh, Max. He, he, he has these questions that he wanted me to put through to you, uh, that comes from James Lipton, the Proust questionnaire. These are kind of like rapid-fire questions, so, but by no means do you have to answer them quickly or in one word, but just a bunch of quick ones. Uh, so, uh, what is your favorite word? Favorite...
word, yeah, uh, word like, uh, saying something, yeah, it's definitely sky, sky.
Okay, what is your least favorite word, uh?
maybe cave and
What turns you on? What...
turns me on beauty and
What turns you off, uh?
um
This is probably stress, stress.
Yeah, that's good. What sound or noise do you love? What...
sound or noise. Uh, I, I really like the sound of of your glider when you're gliding, when making this quiet. Like, it's really put me in a piece. There's
That film, uh, "The Sounds of Paragliding," that is just terrific. I don't know if you've seen that one, uh, yes.
It's from Young French Boy from Tell, yeah, yeah.
It's beautiful, really well done. Uh, what sound or noise do you hate, uh?
I, I really don't like, uh, like, uh, iron and iron, or, or when your fork is scratching the plate. This basic stuff, it's really, ah,
the fingernails on the chalkboard kind of thing. Yeah, that's... that's awful. What is your favorite curse word?
curse word, probably "damn it," or I don't think on on English, I have really a direct one, but probably "damn it" on English, hahaha
And what profession other than your own would you like to attempt? I
I really like to attempt, uh, something with the art of creating picture motion picture. I feel like I want to be one day part of a team which is working because it's kind of art, like having a painting or picture, like moving picture, like a film. That's really interesting and
What profession would you not like to do?
I would not like to do to to stay on a desk in the office, for sure, hahaha.
We all, we all don't want to do that. Um, and if heaven exists, this is great. I love this one. If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you, when you arrive at the pearly gates, if
Heaven exists. I would like to hear that all your friends are there and waiting to meet. Ah, fantastic, fantastic.
I love it. Um, Veso, let's let's wrap it.
up, and let's wrap it up, and let's wrap it
Up there, that was just terrific. I think our listeners are going to love that. Um, where can people find you, uh, and and where can people reach out to you at your? You obviously have kind of an innate, or maybe a practiced, ability to teach. I think you can offer a lot to our community. Um, where can people find you, either online or through Facebook, or that kind of thing?
Yeah, nowadays I think we're all pretty connected, and the website has all the contacts, and the Facebook is there as well, Skype, mobile, you know, you have my application as well, and I'm looking forward to to spend more time with with newcomers in the sport to teach them to share this beautiful sport, for sure it's something I'm looking forward, great.
Fantastic for, for those of you who are listening, the the website is flytheearth.com. It is terrific, I promise you'll get lost in that for, for hours watching some of the films and videos and pictures and vessels travel. So please enjoy vessel. Thank you very, very much. Uh, that was, that was terrific and, uh, happy new year. This is, uh, day three of 2016. Happy
New Year, by the way. That was really pleasure, and uh, I hope we meet personal and fly together. It will be a really dream that
would be a dream, fantastic. Thanks, vessel, talk to you soon. Well,
I hope you enjoyed that. I certainly did. What a cool personality, that was a lot of fun to talk to him over the Christmas holidays. Happy New Year to everybody. You, as always, all we ask for is a buck a show if you got something out of this or one of the previous ones, uh, or if you're just finding this podcast, I really implore you to go back and check out some of the earlier ones. Uh, some great advice there, really fantastic talk with Jeff Shapiro and Bill Belcourt and Matt Beechinor and hysterical one with Nate Scales. So, uh, go back, take a look, enjoy, enjoy it. Uh, grab it on a car ride or something on your next, uh, outing or expedition, and we'll see you on the next one. Cheers.