Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. As promised, some more HG, some more hang glider shows coming your way. When I did the interview with Jeremy Soper a while back, he sent me some videos that this guy, Tim Swaite, had put out. And Tim Swaite is the owner of Avian Hang Gliders in the UK, British pilot, and flying for a long time all over the place, and got involved with Avian a few years back. And Jeremy said, you got to talk to this guy because he's on to something that could be really big and really move the needle in hang gliding. And most people will agree that the last big move with hang glider design was what they all kind of call the sixth generation of the topless in the late 90s.
And since then, much like I guess paragliding would have been after the shark nose, there's been lots of incremental improvements. But nothing really smashed. And Tim believes he's on to something, and it looks a lot more like a bird. There's actually a video segment in this that I'll try to figure out how to put up. But all the testing they're doing on top of a car running down a runway, it really looks like a hawk and very cool. So if this works, they're doing a lot of testing and prototypes. But if this works, Tim believes that it could really... Move the needle, but also just change the access and the performance and potentially the cost of hang gliding.
And so it could help the sport. The sport has been gradually dying in terms of the numbers for decades now, and this could really potentially move things around. So I had a fantastic conversation with Tim. I really enjoyed this chat. I don't know a ton. I don't know a ton about hang gliding. So for me, there was a lot of learning involved, and we just had a good time talking about hang gliding and being prone and talking about design, which is another thing I don't know a ton about. So this was great for me. I really enjoyed it. Before we get into it, just want to thank you all for switching over to the subscription channel. And again, as always, we don't put anything behind a paywall.
If you can't support the show, no problem. Send me an email. I'll get you all set up. No questions. Maybe someday you can. So if you're having any trouble with that, just shoot me an email. Go through the website. You'll find all the contact information, and we'll get you all set up. Enjoy the show with Tim Swaite, Avian Hang Gliders.
Tim, thanks for coming on the Mayhem, and thanks for your patience with this cold I had last week. Man, it's taken a bunch of people out, but it laid me sideways for a week. So it's nice to be back upright. I'm still a little clogged up up here, so I'll sound a little funny. But yeah. Yeah, thanks for coming on the show. Where are you? Let's start there. It's an easy one.
So I'm in Sheffield, England. Yeah, and thanks for having me on, and thanks to Jeremy for mentioning me and getting me on here.
Yeah, this is really fun. As we were kind of talking before we started recording, I don't know that I'm the best person to ask you design questions on this kind of seventh generation thing you're working on. So let's pause on getting to that, and I'll let you tell. I'll let you tell that story. I watched your video, which we'll put up in the show notes, and that'll be for those who like to dive into design and the technical side of things. I highly recommend you do, because it's pretty fascinating. But before we get to there, yeah, you're in Sheffield. What are you doing in Sheffield? You and I meet each other in a bar, and I ask you, hey, who are you? What do you do? How would you answer that question?
Well, I build hang gliders for one thing. So avian hang gliders. We build them in a workshop in the middle of the Peak District. So Sheffield, we say it's in the north of England. I mean, technically, it's probably about halfway down the country, but in English sort of political geography terms, that counts as the north. So it's about level with Manchester. And in between Sheffield and Manchester, you've got the Peak District, which is sort of not exactly mountains, but they're almost as near as we get. In the UK, they're gentle hills, and there's good hill soaring there, and you can get away on cross country flights.
When did Avian get going?
1989. It was founded by Steve Elkins, and I took it over in 2017.
Oh, so this is, well, I guess that's not that real. 2017 sounds like yesterday to me, but then I had one, and that's almost 10 years ago now.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, scary, isn't it?
And why? Why buy a hang gliding company, given what's happened with hang gliding in the last 20 years?
I mean, that's a good question. It was because I kind of want to do something about what's happened to hang gliding over that time. It's because the innovation and design is what really interests me. And building aircraft, I've always wanted to be an aircraft maker, effectively. I was building radio-controlled model planes. I was building, like, free-flight ones before that, then radio-controlled. Radio-controlled slopes or as gliders, ones with little internal combustion engines.
And, yeah, so got talking with the previous owner of Avian, Steve, and we were co-super, well, I was supervised. I work at the university as well, and I still do two days a week there. And I was supervised. I was in a student project. We'd like to give the students something sort of practical, something from the outside world to work on. So we're often looking out for interesting projects from small companies and stuff. So I was already a hang glider pilot at that point. So I was talking to Steve about this project. We did the project, and then he got on to talking about trying to – that he was looking to finish.
Well, to retire from Avian. He's gone on to do other things since.
But, yeah, and that's how I ended up with it.
How does Avian compare to, say, Wills or the other, I guess, bigger – I don't know. Is Avian one of the biggest, the biggest? No. I don't – again, I don't pay much attention to –
We're one of the smallest, if not the smallest one, because there has been. I mean, like, hang gliding manufacturers have been close. It's taken down over the last few years. I mean, Airborne closed quite recently. Bautech, another smallish one based in Germany, also closed recently. There's Ellipse in France, which is another relatively small one, although I'm not sure. So I'm not sure where we are compared to those. But compared to, like, Wills or Icaro or Moyes, then we're a lot smaller.
Okay. You said you got into RC or still are. Most people who I know who got into aviation through RC are really good pilots. Don't be humble. Are you a really good pilot?
I was – I'm a good pilot. I'm not sure about really good. But, yeah, I think it definitely helped. And I was always into aviation. So I was in – in the UK, we have a cadet force, which is, like, it's all sponsored by the military. But it doesn't come with any obligations to join the – join the army. It's almost like scouts or youth kind of organization, but with a kind of – it's Air Force, Army or Navy background. And I was in the Air Force version of that. So – and you get a little bit of flying in through that. I did a gliding scholarship through that. So I've been solo – I went solo on a sailplane when I was 16 with the – with that.
And then when I was at university. I was in the kind of university equivalent, which is where it gets a bit more serious and starts to be for people that are looking to join the Air Force. Because I was at that point thinking about – thinking about joining the Air Force as a pilot. So I was doing the first stages of, like, pilot training while I was studying at university. So, yeah, I've done – I've done a bit of flying from before. And then I basically had a gap. Because I decided I didn't want to join the RAF after all. And so between university and starting hang gliding, I hadn't done any kind of flying for about 10 years or so. And just sort of started to get the bug and the itch and felt like I wanted to go get back in the air again.
And – and ended up doing hang gliding at that point.
Was this kind of desire to fly – was that early? You know, do you have memories of that when you were a kid? Was this something – or, you know, when you were flying? RC planes? How did you get into it? What was the catalyst? What was the – why?
Yeah, I mean, I can't – I can't sort of remember the very earliest thing. There's sort of some very funny video, like rickety, you know, the kind of rattly video of, like, when I was a toddler, like, two or three years old. Like, chasing pigeons around a – around a square. And as you sort of look at – look at, like, I was – apparently I was trying to jump at that time. And my dad was, like, trying to teach me to jump. And I was sort of bobbing up and down. And my feet weren't quite leaving the ground. But when you look at the video, it almost looks like I'm trying to copy the pigeons. And, like, I think that was the thing that I was – that was the reason I was chasing them. I couldn't work out why they could take off and I couldn't.
I want to be a pigeon, Dad. Come on. Yeah. Help me. You said you instructed the university. Is your background, you know, aerospace, engineering? What's your – what's your academic background? Yeah,
I did a – did a degree in aerospace engineering. Then I did a PhD in composite materials, so materials like carbon fibers. And then I went to work at – it's a part of the university, I feel, but it kind of runs as a separate entity. It's a research institute, effectively. And it's composite – well, it's manufacturing in general. And I'm in the composites group on it. So we're researching ways to make – I don't know. We're researching ways to make things out of carbon fiber more efficiently.
Huh. You said in your – in your video – well, actually, before we get – before we get to the work you're doing, I'd love to just – so has it always been hang gliding for you? Is it – is that how you started flying prone? Do you go from RC to hang gliding or what's been that kind of journey?
Yeah. Well, I did the radio-controlled – radio-controlled stuff up until – well, until I went to university, really. I didn't manage to sort of carry it on. I just wanted to go on after that. And then, as I say, when I was at university, I was in the university air squadron, we did an adventurous training, they called it, which was basically – it was a – it was a good excuse to get an adventure holiday in the Alps. And we did a five-day course para-gliding at that stage. So that would have been about 2001, 2002. 2002, probably, sometime around that time. And – and as I say, we were – we were – we were – we were doing stuff like that. I'd also done sailplane, um, through through the Air Force as well, and um, I enjoyed the paragliding actually.
It was, it was good, and um, there were kind of a couple of things that sort of sowed the germ in my head that I remember. When we were in the landing field, um, it was at, uh, Planjou, which is sort of Chamonix region in the Alps, and yeah, we were in the landing fields there and just sort of chatting with some, some locals, and they were sort of recounting, "Oh yeah, we had a couple of hang gliders come in here the other, the other week," and I didn't sort of appreciate the time, but now haven't been back there since. There's a sort of, there's a big hang glider landing field which is quite a long way out from the hill, and certainly paragliders of 2002, um, might have struggled to have made it without any lift, um, and then there's this little field at the bottom which is the normal paraglider landing field, so it would be unusual to have a, have a going back there later.
I can see it would be an unusual thing to get a hang glider to land in that, and yeah, they were sort of recounting it, "Oh yeah, these two hang gliders kind of came in, they were like jet fighters zooming around and, and whooshing in," and I kind of, that kind of just soda, soda seeds in the back of my head at the, at that point, and I was sort of thinking, well, I quite like paragliding, but it doesn't feel much like sort of being on a jet fighter. And that sounds like that, that, that one sounds more fun to me. I hadn't, hadn't sort of seen them physically, I don't think, before. I like, yeah, and Jeremy's interview last time, he said he had never actually seen a hang glider in real life until he clipped himself into one, and I think that's probably also true. Me, I knew what they were, I'd seen video. The other thing, that the other thing that sort of got me interested in hang gliding long before I started, it was watching a Red Bull video of the when they were doing the air racing, like the low-level zooming down ski runs and things sort of six inches off the deck with smoke canisters and zooming down, and I just thought, that looks really cool.
And um, so then when I wanted to get back into, oh, I wanted to get into some sort of flying again, and paragliding had been good, um, sailplanes had been good as well, so it's kind of like thinking about that. But then I hadn't done hang gliding. It looked, it looks like fun, so I just thought, well, if I, I'll go abroad where the weather's more reliable. Like, I like, I did the paragliding course in Chamonix, so I just looked up places to learn hang gliding in the Alps, booked myself on a course in Santal Air, and um, and went out there and, yeah, enjoyed it and carried on doing it. I
Mean, that's interesting. So you did PG first? It's often the other way around, but yeah, just grab you right away, just being prone and flying like a fighter, yeah.
It did really, as I say. I, I, I think if hang gliding didn't exist, I'm not sure whether
I think definitely, but whether it would be sailplanes or whether it would be PG, I'm not—I'm not sure because I do like that sort of, that feeling of being able to go places and like pull speed and have like a proper like pitch control and being able to kind of zoom around. And I like the—I like the prone position as well, so yeah, I like—I like—I like the performance of the sailplanes, the gliders, and I've—I've had to go in one of the games like more recently since taking up hang gliding, and the performance is outstanding. Like, it's just amazing being able to like see something in the distance and just, just go over to it, and I've not lost very much on the way. And but it feels a bit sort of isolated.
You're—you're kind of—you're—you're In a machine, you're not sort of like with a hang glider. The wing, the wing starts to become like, it feels like part of you. It feels, it's the nearest thing you can get to it. It be you that flying, not a machine that's flying, that's got you attached to it, yeah.
I mean, it seems like, you know, wingsuiting is probably the ultimate, where you're, you're kind of the bird, and then hang gliding, and then sailplane, and then, then paragliding. It seems like that's the... a buddy of mine that I do a lot of fly with had a really funny experience with a sailplane when, in, in the Utah desert, where, you know, he's up at 17,000 feet, and he's, you know, he's on his O2, and it's rowdy, and it's kind of overdeveloping, and he's getting grapple, and, and a sailplane goes by him, and he thought he's probably just in there, you know, just listening to Rock Monanoff and cruising along, probably a little chilly, but, you know, yeah, you're kind of isolated from the elements a bit, yeah.
yeah yeah and
Did you, did you go down the, uh, race to goal? Did you, did you get into racing? Did you get into competitions? Uh, what's the last kind of 25 years of HG looked like for you?
Yeah, so um, so I learned it was 2013, so yeah, it was about 10 years. I didn't do any real flying for then 2013. I did the, did the hang gliding course in the Alps, um, I started entering comps, I think about 2016. I think I did first, um, Brits then, and um, yeah, I got, I, I enjoy comps, um, it's, it's another kind of challenge. It, I didn't think it was, it wasn't sort of, I didn't get into hang gliding thinking I was gonna like with that as my plan. It was just that, um, it was kind of suggested to me as it's a good way, especially because with hang gliding retrieves there's always a big issue, so with going XC, um, it's, it's, I mean, people like, people like Jeremy just go and don't, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know worry about the retrieve when they land or how they're going to get back, um, but it's a bit of a, sort of hurdle to, to, um, not having an organized retrieve, but if you're, but with comps it's kind of, it's, it's more, more organized, more managed, especially because for the, they're very welcoming a few newcomers.
So as a newcomer coming into doing comps, you, you won't have a problem getting a retrieve, like you'll, you'll be sorted, um, so that was, that was the main thing which got started on those, and then I found that I, yeah, I quite enjoyed them.
And so you pick up the the company from Steve in 2017, and you said right there at the top that one of the things that you're excited about was not just, you know, building aircraft, uh, but that if you do it, I guess, in a way that's this—like you said, this kind of seventh generation. And talk about that, you know, the—in your video, you said the last kind of real big move with hang gliders was, I guess, the sixth generation of topless in the late 90s, and since then it's been kind of incremental. The equivalent to that with paragliding would be, you know, the invention of the of the shark nose in 2009, and I would say, you know, since then it's been pretty incremental.
So there's—I mean, there's some comparisons between the two, uh, but yeah, what—what does that look like? Is that—talk about this seventh generation and and how it could
help the sport overall, yeah.
So, in the early days of hang gliding, there was very rapid development, very rapid iteration. I mean, it's easy to sort of like, you can see why, because it's, it's easier to get those gains to start with. So, like, your first generation, what once were the sort of classic Regalo thing, you can even make them with like bamboo poles and polythene sheets, kind of thing. It was just the two, the, the, you've got your two tubes which make your leading edge, you've got one across that's the, that's the cross tube, and then, yeah, it was almost like, well, every every year or two they were coming up with something very, a big change, which sort of you could count as being a different generation. So, yeah, we kind of in hang gliding, it's kind of formalized to like fifth generation was, I think, around the end of the 80s, beginning of the 90s, and that was when they had
double surface, and that's kind of the... it's sort of in a sense, it's almost worse than you... you said there, because really the fifth generation, which the big was, that was the kind of last really big change. And king-posted gliders, you could still argue, like, you... you could kind of almost still argue we're still on a fifth generation, then, whether you count the topless. Um, so in the late 90s, the first ones, um, started not having king posts, um, because they... they had a lot of... they had a sturdy enough structure inside the wing that they didn't need the king post for structural reasons, and they had sprogs—we call them sprogs—inside the wing to support the sail. Um, so they didn't need the king post for the luff lines either, so they did away with that.
And, um, yeah, some people count that as sixth generation, some people don't even count that as different to the fifth generation. Um, and then, yeah, since then, the kind of paradigm has been for, um, improvements, but they're not going to be the same as the first generation. So mostly, been... or a lot of it has been on the sort of side of... on the topless is on particular... it's been... it's been on performance. So it's been largely using, um, stiffer materials, so using more carbon in the frame, so replacing the aluminium tubes with carbon tubes to... to make them more rigid. Um, using the sail cloths, now, on the high-performance gliders, they're not woven cloths, they're laminates made up of a plastic film and non-woven fiber, sort of stacked together and bonded together.
Um, and those fabrics are very low stretch, so they're... they're... they've got a lot of, um, tensile, um, resistance. Um, but that means that you start sacrificing your handling, and so you're getting better performance, but, um, and that... that's really kind of the... where the limit comes is, like, how much are you prepared to... to sacrifice? And I'd say the... like, that's... that tends to be the difference between the two. So I think that's the difference is between gliders now, that some are a bit easier to fly, some are a bit... a bit higher performance. And unless you do, and I think realistically we've got as much out of the current platforms as it's really possible to get. Um, I don't think there's...
there's much more to be squeezed from the way we're doing it at the moment, so you need to think... you need something which is... you need... you need to do things a little bit differently. Um,
In a big part of the, as I understand it, a big part of the kind of fallout of people participating—that's not the right term, there, but uh, you know, just people going to either other forms of aviation or just quitting is wasn't it the cost as well, you know, these these incremental gains and performance, but also expensive materials like you're talking about the laminates and and also the the performance performance slash ease of flying got pretty lopsided. Is that right, the right way to say that it's, you know, you to to compete to do well, you had to have the latest greatest fifteen thousand dollar aircraft, um
I'm not sure that's such a thing in hang gliding; maybe that's if that's something you're getting in paragliding, maybe. But I'd say that cost, because I mean, so cost for getting into the sport for hang gliding, it's almost never been lower because there's quite a glut of second hang gliders around because because the the hang gliders are more expensive than paragliders, but they last longer. So like, you can get decent, airworthy, safe-to-fly hang gliders for not too much money if you're like, it's still, it's still quite a cheap the equipment. The lessons are expensive, but the to get, if you're getting, if you want to get into the sport, you've got to get into the sport, and you've got to get into the sport.
The equipment, it's got to be one of the cheapest forms of aviation to get into, I think. Now, yeah, admittedly, the the the new gliders are expensive. Um, yeah, I was
talking more kind of at the top end, you know, as you get into the sport as cheap and you, but as you get better, then you want to start competing and then, oh well, I need the performance, and this starts to get pretty expensive.
or no, um, um, yeah, I mean there is, there is an element that, yeah, high the the top a topless hang glider now is around ten thousand pounds, um, so high high spec comp glider and yeah, I'd say although also because the because the development hasn't been going so far forwards over over the years, there's sort of that benefit you get from a new glider is
not so much, and it will last more years when you're, when you're in in competition, I mean I'm not saying it's nothing, I think it, it, it matters, but the problem is it's almost a bit of a vicious circle as well, because the main thing driving costs I don't from trying to make the thing is his volume that we're, because we're so small, we can't get any kind of economies of scale on anything. We, we can't get advantages like almost everything, I, everything we make, I can see ways that could be made more efficiently, um, but it's, it, it wouldn't be cost effective to do that. It would cost more to, it would cost more, you'd spend more trying to save the money than you would ever save. So you, you're kind of trapped in this, in this situation of you can't make them cheaper because you're, you're not, you're already not making any money as it is, and so you can't just reduce prices, and you can't make them more efficiently because you're not making enough of them to make them more efficiently either.
Hmm, what would you say are the kind of the main issues facing the sport, um?
I think the main issue actually is, it is that the entry, it's the, it's again getting the beginners in. I'd say that's far more like, I think, like the pipeline coming through from, um, like from people that started to get into comps. I'd like to say we're fairly, especially in the UK, I think we've got quite a friendly, welcoming comp scene for getting them, getting any, anyone new, um, to there. But, but the problem is getting them in in the first place. It's, it's getting students, um, getting, getting, getting people taught. There's not very many hang gliding schools left anymore now, and it's more so
It's kind of a visibility issue; I mean, if people don't see it, then they don't know
Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, and and it's also, even when people do see it and do want to do it, then they've got to find someone that will teach them, and they've got to find someone that will teach them. And there's just, very, as I say, there's very few schools in the UK now. I, I, I learned by going abroad, which works very well for me. My kind of mentality with that was, um, I go, I do snowboard. I like, I'll go on a snowboard holiday in the winter, and um, so in the summer, let's do, let's do, let's like an activity holiday. Um, so I just, I sort of did the hang gliding book to course, thinking, well, I might enjoy this, I might not, but I've got a week, a week somewhere in the mountains, beautiful location, get to do an activity every day.
That sounds fun, like, even if, even if I don't take it up when I get home, that's, that's no problem. Um, so that, that was a good way of learning for me, but that's not going to work for everybody. And yeah, as you say, a lot of it does come back to, um, back to lack of, lack of instructors.
So okay, let's... let's return back to, I don't know, if we're calling it the sixth generation, seventh generation, 6.5? I'd go with seven.
I'd go with seven, okay? So...
I watched your video, but we can't, uh, we can't show that right now. What's, what are you working on? And what, how will this change the paradigm? So...
The one of the, there's a, there's a few things which kind of have to be done together, and some of this is because it can be done now. So, um, one of the things which kind of allows this is better computer simulation. So that's been something which paragliders have been using for a long time. I, I'm not sure exactly, but like easily a decade they've been, yeah, they've, they've been, they've been optimizing their wings, and it shows. Like, I think your paragliders are now getting, you're, you, you're getting pretty close to the theoretical limits of what you can get out of a, out of the design constraints you've got. But just from a conceptual level, if you, if you sort of think like a paraglider is a compromise, like it's, it's, it, it's inflated by internal air pressure and it's got all of, it's got all the lines which are parasitic drag, and it's amazing how well they fly, like, give it, given, given the sort of basics of it.
And then you, you look at a hang glider and you think, well, it's kind of a bit like a paraglider, but you've got this extra advantage that you've got rigid elements in it. Well, and if you think of like birds, then they're a rigid frame with a membrane stretched over it, like skin and bone. Um, we're, we're like, we should be able to do a lot better than the paragliders. And when you do the simulations and you kind of look at what they, like, weirdly, we're still leaving performance on the table. Like, there's still quite a bit to be got out of it. So there's a few sort of key things, um, key problems almost, and those are what we're addressing. So one of those is lift distribution. So you want the wing, you want every bit of the wing to be working as hard as it's able to work.
So if you drew, drew a graph of the, of the amount of lift that is generating as a function across the wing span, um, there is a perfect distribution for that, and it's an ellipse. Um, and any deviation from that, you're effectively, what that means is that you've got some bits of the wing, like, effectively fighting each other. Um, some bits are working harder, some bits working less hard. Now, I mean, I heard a story from someone who used to fly comps back in the 90s, and he said that his, then, comp glider, if you flew it really fast, like those and these zooming, his sidewise would actually go slack. Um, so that's like a sign that the wing is fighting itself so hard that the outboard section is actually generating downforce rather than lift.
And, um, yeah, and that means that your inboard section is having to generate even more lift to overcome that, of course. So the whole thing is just dragging, obviously. We're not, we're not that bad, um, now, but we're still, we're still not even close to, to this sort of perfect lift distribution. And, I, I assume that paragliders are pretty much, a pretty much achieving that, um, from like looking at the shape of them and looking at their performance figures, I think they must be, they must be doing that. So if we could get that lift distribution Then that would be, that would open up an awful lot to us, and then the question is on not compromising handling while doing that. And so the way that traditionally we've tried to effectively, that's why we've gone, that's why development has gone towards these stiffer materials, more carbon stiffer, say sales and so forth.
It's because the way of trying to achieve that lift distribution, it's been about flattening the wing and about forcing it on flat. Um, it's a kind of trying to brute, brute force the problem almost, and you can only take that so far. And so our, our objective more is a wing that kind of is a bit more natural. It's kind of, it's, it's being a bit defined by the air. That's why there's a teaser video as well of what generational look like. Yeah, you see, it looks quite bird-like, that gullwing kind of shape. That's, that's part of it. It means you can get that, you can get the, you can get the wing to sit at the angle that you, each section along the wing to sit at the angle you want, um, without needing to brute force it so much.
Um, there's another bit which is to do with the symmetric versus asymmetric stiffness. So to, to be able to, um, well, to be able to be a wing at all, it's got to be symmetrically stiff. It's got to sort of like hold itself down against, against like the bumps. Well, the toothpicks are going to carry sort of the, you know, thefter documenting the force históricîne, but that's about that should be quant deployment too. So that's yours if you're not extreme Diafro at your weight, but of course that, but that's a symmetric load. Your weight is in the middle pushing down, the lift is on both sides going up. So that's when it's loaded symmetrically, you need it to be stiff. You also need it to be stiff if it's loaded negatively as well, because that's, that's what happens if you hit extreme turbulence and potentially if you get into a tumble with it, if it didn't hold its shape and didn't recover, then, so you need it to be stiff
weight shift to turn it. You're loading up one side more than the other, and you need the wing to be able to respond to that, so it's able to move asymmetrically. So, trying to have a have the wing as a whole, view the view the entire thing as more like a one giant mechanism, and the the overall behavior you want from that mechanism is this symmetric stiffness, asymmetric um asymmetric movement. I
Noticed in the video, you're, you're, you're flying with all these kind of sensors on the, on the pilot's body. Is that, is that how you're kind of measuring all of this? Yeah.
To be honest, that bit of it is kind of like slightly if
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