Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the CloudBase Mayhem. Before I get into this one today, round two with one of my favorite guys out there, Benjamin Kellett. Pure wanderer from New Zealand, just getting after it, making awesome videos, traveling the world, flying and doing tandems and just awesome adventures. He gets the adventure of the year, if you ask me. But before we get to that, I just wanted to say a quick bit about this new format. We released it last, in the last show with Chris Hollub, down in his stories about Patagonia and SAB and everything. And people are pretty jazzed about listening to that. Most people didn't have any trouble accessing that subscriber content, but some people did.
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So it's a couple steps. I know that's a pain, but most of you are figuring it all out, and we'll get you all set up. So again, thank you for your patience and making this go. It does seem to be working a lot better, which is great. So Ben, Kelly. We've had him on the show before. He puts out amazing videos. Most of you, I'm sure, know who he is and the follows and stuff. He just does amazing stuff from the air and on the ground and his bivy adventures around the world in the Karakorum and across the Himalaya in Europe. And he's got quite a cool yearly migration that he does from doing tandems in Switzerland in the summer in Interlaken and then down in Queenstown in their summer in New Zealand. And in between, he just does these amazing adventures all over the place.
And so we talk about high altitude challenges and gear stuff and how he films and the business side of that and the business side of tandems and staying passionate. And what I mostly love about Ben is just his approach. It's really all about the adventure and the aesthetic and not at all about the numbers and the records. And, you know, he sends big flights. Don't get me wrong. But that's not his mission is adding things up on X contest. It's just doing the coolest thing that's available on the day. So a ton of great stuff here. Just fabulous learning and super inspiring. And we've had a lot of recommendations and requests to get Ben back on the show.
So here you go. Benjamin Kellett, take two. Cheers.
Ben, I'm calling this Ben take two. We've had a few people reach out and say, hey. You've got to get Ben back on the show. He's been doing all kinds of cool stuff. And, you know, we're all addicted to your amazing videos. So let's start there. We both think it's been about three years. I didn't actually look that up. I think it has been about three years since the last time we chatted. And I was hoping to see you over here in Monroe and Utah. We'll talk about that at some point here, too. But make this part of your stops. But tell me about your you just said this is kind of your itinerary you've been doing the last three years. And I didn't know you were doing the tandem rat thing there in Interlochen where you are right now. So, yeah, let's catch us up to speed. But also, what is your kind of yearly migration?
You're kind of a bird.
Yeah. Hey, thanks. Heaps for having me back, Gavin. It's it's an honor as always. And yeah, thank you so much. And yeah, for what you're doing. I think it's awesome. Really cool. Yeah. So I've been doing the tandems. I've been flying tandems for like six years now. And I've been coming to you. Europe for the tandem season in the off season of New Zealand for the last three years. And so I do the summers in in Lausanne, Brunon, just south of Interlochen. And yeah, it's great. You know, like I so I migrate each year and I typically what I do is the summer in New Zealand and then in the spring, I'll go to northern India somewhere in the Himalaya and have a month of solo flying.
Then I'll go to Europe and do the summer season in New Zealand. And then I go back to the Himalaya in the autumn and then back to New Zealand again. And that's kind of my schedule. The last few years, I've been squeezing in trips inside the European season because I've had time constraints on how much time I'm allowed to spend inside of the Schengen area. Thanks to Brexit, because I'm British. And yeah, so I did some trips to Pakistan in the middle. I went to Canada and did some up there. And yeah, but that's kind of my schedule. New Zealand, Himalaya, Europe, Himalaya, New Zealand. Yeah, it's nice. Good fun.
From the outside, that just sounds magical. Or is it hard to balance the tandem slash personal flying? We were talking about how good the weather's been in Europe this season and how much FOMO I've had watching X contest. It's just been cruel to me this year. Every time I get on there, you know, Edward's doing another big one. It's just been insane. It's been an incredible season. It was April and then it was May and it just doesn't seem to give it up. It's well, it's given it up every day, actually, but it's it doesn't seem to stop. How do you do you just ignore those days when you're flying tandems and you just can't do it? Or is tandems enough fun that it doesn't bother you?
You know, it depends where I am, actually, where I'm working in Lauterbrunnen, I'm not so bothered by it. And it also depends on what type of client you get. Fortunately. Where we are, the flying's really good and, you know, we're right next to the Jungfrau and the Eiger and the Monk. So if you get the right passenger and it's a great cross country day, then it's actually super enjoyable. You can take them up to 4,000 meters and fly over the glacier. And yeah, that's, it's pretty good fun. I struggle more when I'm working in New Zealand because I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, it just holds too close to my heart. So if you have a, and they're more. There's not as many epic flying days there. So if it's a good cross country day, then I want to go and do my thing and fly in the back country, which obviously you can't, you can't do with the client.
We fly close to the town. Um, but here I seem to struggle less with it, um, because you can have some really magical flights in the tandem and it's pretty cool. Um, but yeah, you know, like also when I'm in Switzerland, I kind of have my head down a little bit more just because it financially makes more sense to me to work a little bit more here. And then when I go to New Zealand. I can just take more days off. Um, also the way that the schedule works for me, I have a lot more flexibility in New Zealand. I can sign out a lot easier at short notice. So if I see a good day coming up, then I can just not go and fly tandem and I can just go and fly solo, which is pretty cool. Like it's kind of unique, actually. Um, there's not many tandem gigs like that, where they just let you take the day off at such short notice, which is, yeah, we're super fortunate.
Um, but yeah, yeah, I don't show too much. Cause when you get the right client at the end of the day and you fly them over the Yonge crowd, it's super fun.
What is your kind of jam these days? You know, you put out these amazing videos, you know, it seems like you're, you know, you're really into the bivvy. What keeps you super stoked to keep up this yearly migration? I mean, it's, it's pretty intense. Uh, you know, you're, you're doing a ton of airtime. What, what, what is it that you really keeps you jazzed?
Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting, you know, because I think we all go through like waves of motivation and like what drives you. And I often ask myself that question, you know, like, what do I want to do and what is the goal and what is the objective? And what I've, what I've found over the years is just not to set myself crazy objectives that, you know, like I want to fly this amount of distance or I want to do this number or, you know, it's more for me about exploring and seeing areas. In a unique way that, you know, and, and bivvy flying and just, and just seeing the world, um, and experiencing places and just getting in the air for this, for, for the experience rather than chasing big numbers. I mean, like moving and migrating around the world like that, it's, it's, it's, it's, it can be quite intense, I guess, because you're constantly on the move, but, you know, not having a wife and kids helps, I guess, because that would be quite challenging trying to move a family around like that.
So, uh, that's, that does. Does make it easier, um, but yeah, you know, like more, more and more now. I fly for the experience and exploration, rather than like trying to chase distance. And don't get me wrong, like, and I'm, and we all are a little bit like this. We, we, I think we always want to feel like we're making some sort of progression, and that progression keeps me engaged. So, if I can fly a bit further than I did the year before, and I can do a bit of a bigger flight, and I feel like I'm still improving, then that also gives me motivation. But I'm not hell-bent on it, you know? Like, I'm not like, I have to fly a 300k this year, and I'm a classic for flying 199ks or 299, you know? Like, I always miss it, you know?
And yeah, so I, I, yeah, I don't really, I don't really care too much about it, but it's, it's nice to progress, yeah.
What's changed for you since last we talked? I know that's kind of a loaded question, a lot, but uh, you know, you're—you're—let's start with some simple stuff. Your gear, you know that you make these awesome films with, you know, you're—we talked about it last time, how good your audio is and stuff. If you—if you upgraded there, you're still doing the same thing? Are you—is the objective still the same? What have you changed with—let's just start there. What have you changed with filming? What have you changed with trying to kind of bring your experiences to the outside world, which you do a very good job of? I
Think mostly what I've done is actually draw it back, um, and not allow the filming to really disrupt the experience too much. So they did become a point where, you know, like I was like hanging like multiple cameras off me and trying to film every moment and stuff, and it just became too much and I was like, "What am I doing, you know? Like, am I doing? I'm doing this for the fun of it and I like making videos to share the experience, but if you're really depleting the experience by making it uncomfortable to fly and having to fly with heavy batteries and hang cameras off, which, which make it awkward, then, then what's the point?" Um, so I think at some point I sort of said to myself, "Just bring it back, just keep it simple where I just use a head cam," and I every now and again I pull out a selfie stick, but if I'm not feeling up to it, then I just don't pull the selfie stick out and I just roll with the head cam.
I just keep it simple. And, uh, you know, I played a lot around with all sorts of different things and I just played a lot around with all sorts of different types of, you know, like the 360 cameras and things like that, and yeah, they can pull out some really cool images, um, but you have to find—I felt like I needed to find a compromise between simplicity and something that produces a really nice image. And I, you know, I can do super complicated and shoot in, in log and with ND filters or in 360 cameras and all this stuff, and it makes really beautiful images, but it takes a hell of a lot of effort to, to produce something out of it. So it has to be simple. Um, for the videography side, with the recording with the audio, I think I've more or less been running the same thing for, for years now, and since that hasn't actually changed since we spoke last, it's really basic.
I just have a GoPro with a—it has a microphone adapter and I run a hardwired mic, just like a lapel mic that just goes down the helmet and sits next to the, to the chin, um, with a, with a dead cat on it, um, so it's just wired into the, to the GoPro, so it's all attached to the video already. I'm not running like a separate audio and video track, um, and sometimes it works 95 percent of the time. Sometimes, you know, it doesn't work and it's not plugged in correctly or the microphone breaks or, you know, the, the adapter breaks, you know, but most of the time it works pretty well, yeah.
I'll have to tap back into you well in advance to the next X-Alps because I, I continue to, yeah, I don't do it as much as you do. And, and typically when I'm just normal flying, I'm not doing any. And so, you know, I have some pretty complicated amount of kit because of the organizational side, so I'm filming with my phone on this awkward arm and the whole thing. But it's, uh, I'm hoping I can change that more to, you know, a DJI or a GoPro with the, but man, the mics and the amount of lines and lanyards and, Jesus, it just, it adds up. And it's, you know, it's already, you're already kind of racing and huffing and puffing and it's, yeah, it's a lot. I have to constantly remind myself, you know, hey man, you're just filming, don't kill yourself because of this.
no it
Looks, looks tough, hey? And then you've also got a battle of the connectivity, and you know, live streaming from out there, and it's flying with a
Starlink in my lap, yeah. And that didn't really—I gave that, I tried that in the prologue, it didn't, didn't work. It got too hot, actually. I thought I was going to blow up. It's amazing, yeah, man, I'm surrounded by plastic. This is a really bad idea, yeah. But yes, I don't think we'll do that anymore. It was great having the Starlink just on the run, because that was always one of our, you know, you think, oh, it's the Alps, it's a great service, but just getting data out, you know, just getting stuff out was brutal. And you know, you don't get it out in the first few hours, it's worthless, you know? Then it's, it's old news. And then, yeah, it is. I was watching Ben Hodgson during the X period, really feeling for them. They were having to pack their gear and ice, and my god, that looked brutal.
Wow, wow! Oh, there was like a heat was like 40 degrees. Like, I spoke to some of the guys that came back every day; it was great.
Flying, it looked like great flying, but yeah, it looked really hot. Yeah, you wouldn't want to be on the ground, too. Uh, okay, throw a dart at the board, pick an adventure. You've been doing beer, I think, a Caracorum, you mentioned Canada, and some, uh, character building. Let's talk adventure for a while. Yeah,
Sure, so um, you know, just been trying to go to destinations, uh, for bivouac flying, where I can sort of go on a bit of an adventure, you know? I'm used to flying the back country in New Zealand, so I'm not, you know, adverse to gambling a few days walking, uh, for, for a bit of excitement, um, to fly somewhere spectacular. So, yeah, I did a couple of trips to the Caracorum in Pakistan, um, which was, you know, it's, it's an insane place. I mean, I'm sure we've all seen some of the videos from the people that have gone there. It's a really special part of the world and incredible people, and the, the flying is really unique because of the, the scale of the place and the size of the mountains. Um, you're flying at high altitude, and we can see, you know, and a few of us have been saying it for years that this big 400k triangle is going to go down at some point, and Antoine's done it, and
You know, but you, when you go, when you go and fly there, you'll, you'll understand that that will be the, the world record. And if you want to go and beat it, you have to go, you have to go to Pakistan. I mean, maybe there's a few other countries it could be possible, you know, like Tajikistan, maybe it's close. But, you know, if you're flying at six, seven thousand meters all day, it's, you feel like you've got a tailwind in every direction. Like it's, it, it's really crazy. I mean, it's a very different, it's a different kettle of fish to, to flying, you know, in the southern French Alps. Um, you know, there's not a road in every valley and, uh, you have to have a different mindset. The air is different, it's definitely a full-on place to fly. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's pretty impressive. And yeah, so that was incredible.
So I did some, did some bivouac flying there and what kind of, what
kind of stamina, you know, comparing, you know, we all know Antoine is just hard as a rock and that guy's is just nothing bothers him. It's an incredible how much he's willing to take on with a smile, but uh, what kind of stamina to that table is an eleven and a half hour flight? Uh, you know, you're like, you said it's, it's, it's very thin air, you know, so your speeds are much higher. Uh, even I'm imagining he was, what did he fly on? I'm imagining he was on more hike and fly kit than comp kit, right? Yeah, yeah. So, uh, so like, Aaron, did you know flying? I think Aaron was on his Omega when he was, when he was there flying that one, but what does that take in in terms of just the mental toughness because, like, you said that
There's big areas where landing out would be astonishingly bad, correct? Yeah,
Exactly, so I mean, you can't just turn up and then the next day just go knock out an 11 hour flight in the Karakoram. It just doesn't work like that; you have to spend time acclimatizing, which is what, um, Antoine and Veso have done. Is they've gone and they've spent two weeks, you know, flying up, landing at sort of four thousand meters, sleeping, going down, going back up again, you know, and and really acclimatizing because the, it's, I think, I mean, you know this because you fly in really big, big, big air, uh, in Idaho, but the, the oxygen systems are just not, they're just not reliable enough to do 11, I don't think. Like, you'd need multiple tanks, um, and then if you do land somewhere stupid, then you've got these oxygen tanks you've got to carry out, uh, so for bivouac flying, it doesn't make any sense, um.
But they have, you have to acclimatize because, and then all day you're, you're battling that because, yeah, you want to be high because the air is thin and you fly faster. But at the end of the day, you feel terrible when you're at 7,000 meters, even if you've made some acclimatization, it's still really uncomfortable. Um, and then you put all the dust on there and you're just cooking. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's, um, it's, it's not a great feeling. And then, you know, you've got the normal endurance of any long cross-cross country flight, plus you have this huge temperature difference because you're taking off at like 3,000 meters and you're flying up to seven, so you know that could be a 30-degree temperature change. And I think that these guys were saying it was like minus 15 that day, so I mean, you, you know, and you're taking, when you're taking off, it's really hot as well.
So you've gotten this huge variance, and it sounds like they had to go around some pretty serious rain showers, which can be particularly scary there in the Karakoram because you're, because you're close to the tropopause, the, the, the rate in which these, uh, thunderstorm clouds develop is a lot faster because it just whacks into that inversion and then just spreads out. And, um, when you get these rain showers there, it really rips through the valleys. It's like not a, not a really fun place to be. So, yeah, it's just everything on the extreme, plus having to deal with the altitude. Um, and I, I was flying there mostly, but we was there in the July both times. And, yeah, it's, it's, it's turbulent. It's definitely more turbulent than I'd say than than the Alps, you know?
It's, it's mountain flying, yeah. Um, but it's, I think it's the other factors that really just compound to make it a challenging place to fly, where you have this problem with the altitude and, um, the overdevelopment speed and, and things like that. And then also the walk out, you know, like if you land in the wrong place, not only do you have to be willing to walk for several days, but you have to be quite a competent mountain person, able to operate at altitude and having all the things that you need to be able to, the equipment to do that. And then on top of that, you know, you don't have rager rager's not knocking around in Pakistan, you know, like the helicopter rescue, uh, there is fairly limited. They, um, you can get, they can get military helicopters to rescue you, would take like a minimum, I think, of 24 hours to get anything anywhere, and they need a proper landing place, you know, like they don't have like winching capabilities, like if you went in on the side of a cliff or something, then you're relying
on a helicopter and bring you down, so they need a a clear landing area and they want you to like move all the rocks away and stuff, so rescue is definitely an issue there too. So yeah, it's not, it's not the Swiss Alps, but um, it is beautiful, uh, and a really wonderful part of the world.
What was it? Quite intimidating, going for your first time, and imagine it's, you know, it's one of these things where, what, what are, what are we, uh, signing up for here? Yeah,
Absolutely, yeah. It's you, you. I just approached it and I just really increased my margin and, uh, you know, like there's times where you, when you're flying your home site, and you're happy to sort of push a little harder because you know what it's like. And I think when I was flying in Pakistan, I just sort of took it a bit easier. I had some really cool flights and I reminded myself, like, I'm not here to prove anything. I'm a, I'm an aerial tourist. I want to do some sightseeing. I want to go fly next to glaciers and, you know, and if it's not the day, it's not the day, like I'm, and, and that's kind of like the attitude
I'm not, like, I'm not trying to do like world firsts and break records, and you know, like, I like to fly as far as I can sometimes, but like, I'm not, not at any cost, you know? So if I think it's a bad day, and this is what I did in Pakistan, I just sort of increased that margin even more and just went, "Oh well, I'm not sure, I don't understand what's going on," and if I don't understand what's going on, then I'm happy to just go and land and save it for tomorrow.
Is one of the factors, I mean, one of
The light for me was a couple years ago at the World Cup, when I was meat directing, and you have to factor this whole thing that you've got people at 17,000 feet and you know potential gust fronts coming through. You know, if you push that too far, it's going to take some time for people to get to the ground. You know, they've got to get down 10,000 feet, you know, uh, yeah, on a comp glider, which takes some time. You've got to factor that time in. Is that a big thing there? I mean, to me, it's, uh, this is always
A big thing, I mean, it's a big thing. I mean, it's a big thing. I mean, it's a big thing. It's always
One of the things flying here when you're, when you're flying really high, especially if you're flying without O2, you're compromised. You know, you're trying to build in that margin, you're not thinking very clearly, you're cold, there's all these things. But, but that's one of them is that, you know, okay, that thing's going pretty vertical, I need a lot more time than I'm typically. You know, in the Alps, you just go land, often just top land at a cafe, you know that? It's, you can, you can get out of the sky typically pretty quickly. You know, it's a, it's a remarkably good day to be even a thousand feet over the top of the, of the peaks, you know that? Whereas here, you're, you're often way tall is that? I mean, I imagine that's one of the factors there. Also, you can't just go land, well, that's a glacier, you're not gonna land on a glacier.
No, absolutely. Um, it's just, it's like you said, you know, like if you're at 7,000 meters and you want to go and land down in the valley, you know, you've got to descend, you know, 5,000 meters. You're not going to just spiral down 5,000 meters, like you just can't. It just takes too long. So you have to really anticipate it, and uh, you have like a green—I'd call it like a green belt of altitude where, like, where they do most of the grazing around 4,000 meters. So in certain places, you know, you could land at 4,000, but yeah, it's not landable everywhere. It's lots of jagged, snow-covered peaks and, you know, cliffs and other spots. But yeah, I... it and that, that's kind of like you just have to give yourself a bit bigger margin. And, you know, what?
Like, there was a couple of times where, um, I thought it was going to explode and I went and landed, and then it didn't, and I was like, "Oh, I could have kept flying," but I'd be happy to make that mistake in that direction 10 times and not make it once in the wrong direction, you know? Like, uh, yeah.
You know, that's an uncomfortable day, yeah.
Exactly, you know. And look, I don't want to put people off going there; it's a beautiful place to go. The people
Um, you just have to go in there with your eyes open, and understand that it's not the Alps, and you know, the rescue is more challenging, and maybe you just change it. What time of year you go, you know, maybe go more in the end of the season, when things start calming down, and it's, it's more manageable. But it is the flying; there is amazing. The people are great, um, and, uh, yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people should, should go and visit at some point, and maybe now Antoine's done, this is gonna encourage a few people to go out. Maybe, maybe for the wrong reason, in my opinion, but at least I don't know, maybe they should
Leave that alone, yeah, exactly. Uh, I mean, that's Antoine. He's, he's, uh, he's, he's special. How are you dealing with oxygen there? You just rock up at a welding shop, or can you get O2, yeah?
Exactly. There's a welders, uh, so you there's a couple, I think there's a couple of oxygen systems knocking around in, in Hunza that you can sometimes get your hand on, but otherwise we just, I just sort of brought my own. And then, um, do you bring a trans filler?
Yeah, but the world, the guys at the welding shop are actually pretty good. They seem to actually have all of the the the attachments to get it filled up, but it also does depend on like what bottle, you know, like how much they've got, you know, because I mean, you probably know this, but they will line them up in series and you can only get as full as the bottle that they have is full. So sometimes you can only get it half full, and you know, then it's only good for like, you know, five hours. So what we were doing was because it's, uh, you probably have the same systems, it's like
you're a well-planned'? Anyway, so there's, there's no point in receiving any oxygen then. So what I was doing was just removing the cannula, uh, and pulling it further down, and then just flying. And then, once I got to sort of five and a half thousand meters, or I started feeling a bit funky or whatever, then I just shoved the cannula in and take a couple of gulps, and you know, but if I dropped down to the lower altitude again, then I would just pull it out. But, um, to be honest with you, the best thing I think for there is is if you, because you can't, no one's going there for like a week or two if you're going to go, because the travel times are just so extreme. Then you're better off just actually spending the time acclimatizing and just sleeping altitude.
I think it's safer, you know, if you're doing a cross country flight there, and you know you're planning on landing back in the valley at the end of the day, then for sure taking some oxygen is going to make you, uh, have better decisions. It's going to keep you warmer, and it's definitely worth it. But the majority of the flying I was doing when I was there was with bivy flying, and then the oxygen is kind of just a bit of a burden, to be honest, I
always find the cannula thing, you know, if it, if I pull it out, then I can't keep it back in when I want, you know, it's already stretched it too much where you're just my advice for oxygen is don't go the first time and expect it all to work, you know, it's, it's one of these things like anything like a p-tube, you know, it takes practice, it just always a bit of it, it's just, it's an added layer like the, the, the 10,000 thing, my workaround for that is I keep the controller in a really easily accessible place, I just turn it off and on, I see, otherwise if it's, if it's on and you're not using it, then it reminds you, it's constantly telling you to breathe because you haven't breathed in a while, so you're getting that beep all the time and, but then yeah, but then you know in a place like Pakistan, you don't want to be taking your gloves off and it's too cold and yeah, there's, yeah, it's just always, it's always something, yeah
I think it may be my system's different, but it mine's like a the the regulators on the bottle, and then I put the bottle in the back of the harness, yeah, so I can't actually adjust it. I think like there's the better systems where you actually have like a control box that you can sit, probably close to your cockpit. There's this, but I've got a cheaper Chinese version, okay.
Yeah, yeah, I have the control box one, and it's just a little switch you can just, you know, just turn it off or turn it back on. But, uh, you know what I'm noticing now is, you know, a lot of, a lot of folks are flying with two tanks. You know, they've got a two-tank system, but man, that's, you know, for hiking, that gets pretty unwieldy. It's not much fun, yeah.
Exactly, yeah. No, it's, uh, it can be a bit much, but yeah, it's a—it's a beautiful part of the world. And, and I'm a little sad that I didn't go back this year, but you know, you can't be everywhere, yeah.
That's true. Uh, tell me about character building in Canada. When, when were you—I forgot that. I saw some of the stuff from that, but I can't remember when you were there and what, what were you doing? What was the mission?
okay
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