Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. I hope you're getting into summer here as we roll across the solstice and the longest days of the year, at least in the northern hemisphere. We've had some awesome big flights this season, especially over in the Alps and starting to kick off over here in the Rockies as well. So, yeah, I hope you're having some fun. We had a great weekend at the X-Lost, a little hike and fly race I run over in Arco, over in the Lost Rivers. It was a blast, really cool seeing people charge and heading up to Chelan here shortly for U.S. Nationals. And then I got some great stuff planned for the fall in terms of racing with the Red Rocks Wide Open and the, well, actually the Niviuk Red Rocks Wide Open now and also the Global Rescue X Red Rocks.
So, yeah, things are good in the flying world and I hope they're good with you. My guest today is Chandler Pappas. He's been a longtime instructor down. In Arizona, and he's now splitting his time between Arizona in the winters and up in Rouge, Oregon, up at Applegate for in the summers and instructing there. He's maybe one of the most passionate instructors I've ever spoken to, but I've been meaning to get him on the show for a very long time now. He kind of grew up under the mentorship of some proper legends and Dave Prentice and Dixon White and Chris Santacroce. And.
A bunch of others. So he's he was lucky to walk into flying with a group of very knowledgeable folks and has taken all that stoke and passion to his own students. So this one, I guess you could say, would be geared at newer pilots. They're just getting into the game. There's just a ton of great advice here from Chandler about how to find a good instructor and how to, you know, how we can multiply those cheap mistakes and learn a ton. And. Flow state. We get into a whole bunch of topics that are to me endlessly fascinating, but I would think this one would be valuable regardless of where you are in your journey and learning. It was a lot of fun to talk to you and some just great takeaways.
Some great advice here. I think you'll dig it. Enjoy.
Hey, buddy. It's good to see you on my screen. I wish we were doing this in person, but thanks for saying yes. And I've been meaning to do. I'd say this every time. I know. I know it's a broken record. I've been meaning to do this with you for an awfully long time, but I got an email from one of your students a while back and I put that in a little folder and said, Hey, you got to talk to Chandler. He's got some great stories. He's been teaching down in Arizona forever. And yeah, I'm excited to talk to you, man. Welcome.
Yeah. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. And yeah, a little humbled with your list of resumes. I am glad you called, but I do think there's room for. A paraglider pilot and instructor who just cares and loves about paragliding and I'm glad to be here. Yeah. Super excited. So thanks again.
I got this question that I sometimes like to open with and people have heard it before, but so you're, you're imagine you're standing in a bar and somebody walks up next to you and says, Hey man, can I buy you a drink? What do you do? How do you, how do you answer that question? What, what do you do? Who are you?
Yeah, it's a good one. And it's actually happened. Right. I like to say I climb up mountains with a motorless backpackable aircraft and I, and, and I run off and I fly up on mother nature alone and land softly is the goal is the goal. And I've found that I love teaching people to do that. And that's become my passion. And the other work I do. I only do enough to support that and give me time to make sure I keep doing that.
Cool. Usually we have jobs that support our addiction, but you, you've got the job that's the addiction and the other stuff supports your addiction.
Sounds great. Yeah. Yeah. It works out.
And when did you, when did you get into it? What was the catalyst? What, you know, what made you get into the air in the first place?
Yeah. So my learning story actually, uh, I think some people have found that. Uh, it was, it was very interesting. Uh, in the very beginning, I remember being about nine or 10 years old and, uh, at one of my dad's, uh, our catering business, my dad had, and, uh, I saw a hang glider. We were at an outdoor catering event and there was these hang gliders coming into land. And I said to my dad, I said, I'm, I'm going to do that. And he said, you probably are because he, uh, he was always trying to steer me towards golf and tennis, low impact, lots of money, cute girls, golf, tennis. And so I took up BMX, uh, BMX and skateboarding and, you know, had to be, had, had to be defined kind of thing. Um, but that was the very first thing I remember and I lost the dream for quite a while.
And then when I was around 32, I, uh, this was around 2000 year, 2000, I, uh, I started to do sailplanes. Um, I didn't know about, I didn't know about paragliding or anything. And I started taking some sailplane lessons and I was up there in the plane with the guy, he's walking me through. He's like, what are you, he's walking me through a lot of stuff. And there was a powered paraglider, uh, that we saw in the air. And I said to the instructor, I said, what's that? And he said, oh, that's a, that's a paraglider. And I said, a what he said, a paraglider. And I said, he's got a motor. And I said, he said, yeah, it's a, it's a powered paraglider, but they have non-motorized too. And I, you know, he's trying to teach me to go through and I, I interrupted again and I said, so the non-powered, they can't go up or anything, right?
They just, what do they run on? off? How do they get there? And he said, no, they run off mountains and they can thermal just like I'm trying to teach you to do here and talk to you about. And, you know, he kind of kept steering me back towards the lesson. Come on back. Yeah, but it stuck. And so, uh, that was about my third or fourth lesson. And, uh, when I got home, I researched it, I was living in Phoenix, Arizona and, uh, you know, there was the craters with Dixon white at the time. And, uh, I didn't take another sailplane lesson. Um, I ended up, uh, heading up to Flagstaff to check out the whole paragliding thing. Um, I didn't really, yeah, I didn't like the idea of a motor. Uh, uh, that's why I like sailplanes. Um, and I hadn't stumbled across it. So I drove up to Flagstaff and, uh, at the time, actually, even before that, uh, my girlfriend at the time said, Oh, well, my best friend's boyfriend does it and you should talk to him.
So I did. And that was, uh, David Prentice, AKA Cuervo. No way. Wow. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yep. And so I started training with Cuervo and, uh, got my first wing, a Nova Farron. And, uh, he was quickly off to the worlds. I think he was flying on the USA world team at the time and he took off for Australia. And I had just begun my, had done a bunch of kiting and the whole pre-flight and watched a bunch of people fly. And, um, yeah, we had taken one trip to the Caribbean. And just a lot of work in the park, kiting and in different parks. Yep. And so he took off to Australia and I was like, I don't want to wait, you know, I want to, I want to keep training.
And so a couple of people had said, Hey, you know, if you're going to go up there to craters, you know, don't tell Dixon, you know, you trained with Cuervo, they, they butt heads and all this kind of stuff. And, and I was like, Oh man, you know, whatever. And so I went up to the craters and I, I jumped in with Dixon and, uh, he saw me kiting. And I said, you know, have you, have you done some training before and stuff? And I said, Oh, I just, you know, buddy showing me some stuff. And he kept saying, you know, are you sure? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And on one of the times we were getting out of the truck on top of Miriam crater, uh, some mutual friends of Cuervo and me that I had met said, Oh, Hey, how's it going, buddy? Are you here with Cuervo? You know, and Dixon heard that, you know, and I was like, Oh man. And so he, he, you know, he came over and said, Oh, you haven't done any training with anyone.
Huh? And, uh, Dixon was a great guy. And so he kind of ran me through the rope, you know, the ropes a little bit harder and used me to, to give high wind kiting demonstrations and, you know, just gave me a very professional hard time about it, you know? And, and I said, I said, yeah, I heard there was friction. I didn't want to, you know, cause any friction. And he said, that's all right. We're going to, we're going to keep working with you. Let's do this. And that's back when Marty and Rob and a lot of people were instructing for Dixon at the craters. And so it started, it started with Cuervo and, uh, I, I ended up working with Dixon. And then the crazy thing that happened is he was giving me a hard time about that whole thing. And I said, Hey, I'm, you know, I completed everything for P2 and he'd say, we'll come back and keep helping me.
I'll give it to you next weekend or whatever. Just giving me a hard time. And I would say, Hey, I need to fly South mountain in Phoenix. And okay, I'll give it to you. And he had a heart attack and passed away.
Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. You're taking me way back there. I mean, of course. Yeah. Wow.
Yeah. He has a heart attack. And by that time I'd gotten to know him, I was in his backyard and he was, as you know, an interesting person. He was in the circus for years and, you know, had tight, tight ropes in his backyard and all that stuff. And everybody said, well, you should just ask Marty or Rob or one of the guys at the funeral reception, because I was going and, and I just felt weird about it. I don't know a time and place. I was like, I don't, I should have, it was a very casual, you know, reception. And, and I said, I didn't want to do it. So then I said, you know, I need to get my P2. So I call up cloud nine and I said, the one thing to instructors that you don't say, I said, it was Steve Mayer, you know, answers the phone. And I said, Hey, listen, I already have the P2 skills.
You know, I really just need somebody to, to sign me off, you know? And yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Then now I know why we don't do that. And he says, look, you got to come up here and do the program. Like everybody, I don't know you, you know, you need to get your butt up here and do the deal. So I said, okay. So now I'm, you know, go, I drive up to Salt Lake city and I go there and I'm, I'm kiting like, you know, really well. And he says, Oh, you know what? I'm going to use you as a high wind kiting demonstrator for my students. You're doing great. You know? And I'm like, here we go again. And, and so I met, I met Steve and his instructors and it was amazing. Right. So I got my P2 finally up there with him. Got to know point of the mountain really well.
And you know, the benefit of that a little bit more money, cause everybody was cool and they all worked with me, uh, was that I received instruction from probably five incredible qualified instructors. I was just going to say, this is
extraordinary that the people you've got to go in the, the, the touchstones here you had, I mean, Prentice and Dixon and mayor, I mean, God, dude,
nice start, right. And I was a little grumpy about it at the time because it was a little more money and travel and, uh, funds weren't great at the time, but it was amazing. And I got to meet, uh, Chris Santacroce when I was up at point of the mountain and, uh, I was real interested in towing. And so I jumped in, uh, I was really active at the time. And, and so it worked out great because of how things happened. I, I had, you know, a total of, five or six of just world-class instructors. And I'm still a big believer today in qualified schools, getting along with each other, working together, swapping students, talking syllabus, and just saying, Hey, you got your P2 with me, but it's worth its weight in gold and time and money to just, you know, continuing ed, continuing ed, as we all talk about a lot.
And, uh, you have on your show. Uh, with Califf is one of the, the podcasts. I remember there's this, you know, P2 type of I'm out of the nest and we have some work to do. Yeah.
You got your rating. See you later.
Yeah. And it's the Western U S too, right? It's not just, uh, in other countries where it's a bit more P2 friendly. We have this, uh, in a lot of sites that the weather goes from P2 to P4 type of thing. And yeah, instantly. Yeah. Chasing the P2 weather, is a topic that's, you know, well needs to be continued to talk about and trying to fill that gap. And so I loved it. It was great. And I ended up, uh, I had family in Driggs, Idaho. So I ended up immediately meeting the Wyoming crew and, and Maddie Combs. And as soon as I saw towing, I just became in love with it. I just don't know what it was exactly, but I just thought it was the most interesting, incredible thing.
that they were doing when I first saw it, I said, this is, this is amazing. Like this is unbelievable. And it scared me. It definitely made me, you know, look around and go, Whoa, there's, there has to be a lot that could go wrong here. Uh, but I fell in love with towing and I still love it today. And, uh, yeah, so that's how it started for me. And I, uh, I'm thankful that it went how it did because I I'm a big believer in continuing ed and working with different instructors because, uh, we're not perfect. We have gaps and, uh, you can get some gaps filled somewhere else. And it's very site specific, right? Like you're going to learn based off the sites you're learning at, which are entirely different, especially in the U S.
So to just learn at one site, there's right. I, I trained in, lived in Hawaii for a while. And I mean, high wind, we're going to get you there efficiently and good. There's trade winds blowing on the windward side of the Island. There's grass parks. I mean, we're having contests standing on coconuts with students in, in 12 hours, you know, six to 12 hours of training. We're getting you there, but thermals, you know, are a whole nother story and finding them over there is different. And so you train at the craters in Northern Arizona, it's high altitude desert in a sense, and you're training on volcanic erosion.
So it's very site specific and I can't stress enough to people like, Hey, go here and pay an instructor for a couple of days training. Don't, you know, there's this, uh, yearning to get the P2 done. Like, I just want to get that P2 and then I'm good. And then I, I work a lot to say, Hey, that's, you know, mother nature doesn't care what your rating card says, you know, it's a thing and you have a lot to learn and you want to get to other sites with other instructors and pay them a couple of day fees and let them know you're coming ahead of time and get them to know your log book and train at different sites. Uh, super crucial. So, but I trailed off there, but yeah, that's how I got into it. And I'm thankful for all the instructors and everything along the way. It turned out to be the best thing that could have happened.
I'm always kind of, I mean, similar to you, I just got, the wing I got to get taken under was, you know, in retrospect, it was, it was, it was awesome. Farrell and Santa out at the point. And, you know, my, my, when I, I had been, I had a buddy that was, that lived up at the base of tiger mountain up in Washington. They would, you know, I watched them fly for 15 years and I, it just looked, I didn't get it. I didn't understand. I just thought they just boated around and landed. You know, I didn't understand XC. I didn't just like you, I'd seen it. I didn't really get it. I thought, I thought it just looked slow and boring. You know, I was a ski racer. And addicted to speed and risk. And I didn't realize it was risky even, but then I started hearing stories about, you know, the old so-and-so died or so-and-so got hurt. And I, whoa, whoa.
And I, you know, it was never the equipment. It was bad decisions. And I thought, well, I'm a king of bad decisions. Maybe this isn't my sport. So anyway, I avoided it for a long time. And, but finally, when I decided, oh, this might be pretty interesting. I basically, I went for a tandem. I thought that was really boring. And then I went for another tandem with a buddy and he did a bunch of acro and I, whoa, okay. And then he gave me the toggles and, oh, whoa, I can, okay, now I get it. And, and my buddy took me out down to the point. And so just by, I mean, really kind of in retrospect, it was because I had a buddy and he'd been taught by Santa. And so I go get to have great instruction, but for those people who are listening, you know, how do you, you don't know what you don't know. How do you find the right school? How do you find the right instructor?
And, you know, obviously we can be specific because we're talking and we don't know what you don't know. But, you know, I, I, I, I, we know Santa and the point and we know all these places you're talking about, but, you know, a lot of people listening are over in Europe. How do you find the, how do you find the right guy or girl to teach you? How do you find the right spot? What do you, what do you look for?
Yeah. Another, another great discussion and topic, right? So not all instructors work with all students and not all students work for all instructors. And the tricky part, I think the tricky part in the U S is as we're going
through this, we're going to have to, we're going to have
the sport. There's a lot of travel involved. There's a lot of commitment and there's a lot of that going on, right? Because even to get to a school, any school, a lot of people in the U S have some serious travel involved. And then there's more travel if you're going to look at another one. So, you know, I think really committing to it and getting on the phone and researching and talking to people. We're constantly, you know, with our intro course, we just say, Hey, look, they come through the website or whoever. And we say, we, we want to get you up on the Hill. We want to get you out to the field, watching us training, kiting. We want to bring you out to the toe field. We want to get you involved. I want to talk about the other schools I'm involved with in case you have family that lives there and it works better for you.
I want to educate, right? We want to really, really get them what we call just fully informed. Um, and as far as picking a school, it's, it's hard for people here. They, they, they only have so many choices. And if that school's not a fit, let's say, you know, they're locked in, right? They're, they're in there and people, people don't have the resources or the funding. So we could probably do a lot of work and, and some help there on getting that more organized in a, a, the U S thing. And USHPA does some work there. They have listed websites for all the schools in the area. Um, but it's tricky. And so I would say interview and commit really commit to like, This is going to take some time and some money, but I want to make sure I check them out. And I talked to some of their students and I get a really good feeling about things and that I'm not pressured, uh, to, to jump in with a deposit or something like that.
And the tandem thing you brought up is a, an interesting thing because we get it all the time that I want to do a tandem to find out if I want to do the sport. And I, that's what they say. And I generally say, look, if we do a tandem, you're going to land. And, and want to do the sport more than before you did it. You're kind of an exception to the case there. You were a bit more extreme and it felt a little boring, but most people do that tandem and they're like, Oh my God, it was more, more peaceful than I thought it was smooth. That was great. And I say, but the real kicker, what you want to do is get fully informed. I want you to know the actual cost. There's not just wing harness reserve. There's hook knife, radio concertina. There's all these things.
There's memberships and all the costs is upfront, right? They have to kind of throw this at it right up front. So that's great later, but we get a lot of deer in the headlights with that. And so we want them to know, and then the time commitment, right? Like, Hey, we're weather-based what's your schedule look like with work. And we want to really just have them have a very realistic approach of like, here's how long it's going to take with my schedule, my availability. Here's what I'm looking at for costs. And then also here's what I'm going to get. My first season or two, um, my instructor will, and a lot of the instructors that have worked me over the year, they're like, you're a horrible salesman. You're talking people out of this sport. You know, you need to talk about the good stuff. So I've integrated more of the, you know, but when you get there, you're going to be thermaling to cloud base.
Like you're going to be doing one of the greatest inventions of mankind. I mean, right. Aside, aside from people that like diseases and all that, I'm not rating this against there, but aside from that, it's unbelievable what we do. It's absolutely just one of the greatest things you'll ever experience. So we want to get you there, but we have a really good success rate of people that sign up finishing because of that intro course. And a big part, a big part of that is slowing them down and making sure we're a fit for them and making sure they know there's other resources out there. And to just, make sure you're getting a good feeling about this because it is a commitment and it is paragliding. And what we do is, is it's intense and it's dangerous.
And we want to make sure people know, Hey, this is about not just minimizing risk, but accepting it. And I know what I'm getting into because they're especially training in Phoenix. They're, they're going to hit that point where they're like, Oh, this has been a lot of money. This has been a lot of time. I'm getting these short flights. It's a lot of dust. And it's a lot for this small reward, right? They're not seeing it. It's hard to catch the bug in the beginning, right? Are you, are you towing
for training down there? Are you lobbing
off Hills? We're doing both, uh, but primarily, but primarily towing. We, uh, yep. We do primarily towing and we do a lot of it and we have a great success out there and we absolutely love it. And that equals more time. That equals a little more money that equals a surface tow rating, which is a whole thing in itself. So there's even a bit more there. So they're hit with all this at first. And I think that's super crucial, but back to the question of picking an instructor, uh, you know, I, I kind of tell a story about when I learned to surf real quick in Hawaii, I went to an instructor. He was a guy that was born there on the Island. And he, he, he said, Hey, we're going to, you know, come down here and we're going to do this.
And he said, Hey, we're going to do this. And he said, lay on the board, practice hopping up on it. And, Oh, you've skateboarded before, you know, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Let's get you out there. And he, he got me in some small waves and I learned, and it was, it was a good, good lesson, but I wanted to learn with this other instructor. I had seen taking her time. It's kind of sitting on the beach. I just had a feeling. And, and so I, I went to her and I said, Hey, I'd like to train with you. And she said, you know, I really just train women and blah, blah, blah. But, but I was persistent enough. And I said, Hey, I'd really like to get a lesson with you. And she said, okay, be here at 6 AM tomorrow on this beach. So I was there and she came over and she said, I want you to just watch the ocean sitting here and just watch it for 20 to 30 minutes.
And I'll be back. And I said, okay, I love it. So I w I watched the waves. I watched the wind. I watched where the surfers were paddling out and she came back and she sat next to me and she said, okay, what did you see? And I said, well, I saw that the waves are bigger here, here and here. And they come in from the left, the right or the middle. And the wind is doing this. And these guys seem to have an easier time paddling out here. And we sat there for an hour and she basically taught me etiquette. She said, yep. You see, you see how they're paddling out there and that's getting in the way of them. And do you see how he turned his board sideways when that surfer was coming? You never do that. And then she taught me about the wind lines. My eyes actually saw things I wasn't seeing.
She taught me about the timing of the waves. She taught me a lot of stuff. And then she said, okay, that's, that's today's lesson. And I suggest you do a lot of sitting and watching until I see you again. It is. And it, I took it very much to heart and I try to apply that. And, and what I realized she was doing is, uh, it's more about this, creating the atmosphere for people to learn in than it is teaching. Right. And I, I was reading a book that of Einstein's letters, oddly enough. And that's what he said. He said, we create an atmosphere for people to learn in more than we teach. And I, I just took that to heart and it's, it was really good for me. And I, I tell that story to people because if you're getting that feeling from me, you know, we're a fit and we can work together, but, but I'm going to slow down here and we're going to take things a certain way.
And if you want, to just, you know, do a quicker course or something, I can recommend schools and that's great. And you can work with them and then come back and work with me or whatever. But I want to make sure, you know, that there's more to this than just getting your P2 and getting out there on your own. Uh, so have a good talk with the instructor and make sure things are a fit because I'm not a fit for everybody and that's okay. You know, some people would have been better with the first instructor and they, they could go on to be world-class, surfers. That's fine. There's nothing wrong or right with the different methods. Uh, the one thing I learned from learning, learning from all the different instructors paragliding with me is they all had very different styles, but they were all going to the same goal.
Um, you know, Cuervo and, and, and Dixon were very different personalities and very different, uh, teaching styles, completely different, but they both cared about paragliding. Passionately. They cared about you as a student and they were trying to get you to feel that glider and understand what's going on and get you to a place where when you left them, they felt good about like, okay, he's, he understands his decision-making related to the weather and, and, you know, everything that we, we teach. So there's different styles and, and, you know, if you can afford to, uh, go to different schools and talk to the instructors and talk to their students. your time with that decision.
Um, and then, and if you only have one school close by and you go to them, uh, this is a discussion we have a bit and you're not feeling it and it's not working and you can't afford to go anywhere else. Or even if you could talk to the instructors, like, let them know what's not working for you because we get students who come over and they're like, Oh, I didn't like this school. And you know, they did this or that. And the first thing I say is like, okay, well, did you talk to them about it? You know, did you let them know that something they were doing didn't really work for your type of, you know, receiving training because, you know, they're, they're probably doing the best they can and we don't work for everybody. And, and if it, you know, they don't give them that chance.
Right. And, and I've had that, I've had that too, with students where something wasn't working. And later I heard this and approached them and they're like, yeah, I don't really work like that. And I'm like, okay, well that, that's understandable. And just, I wish they would have just talked to me and just said, Hey, you know, I, I, I'm more of a corporate cubicle learner and I needed more, uh, kind of training in this type of sense. That's what works for me. And we get full spectrum, right? We get people from our
community, right? We've all got, we're all on the spectrum of some kind.
Yeah. Yeah. So we get all types and it's important to do like an individual mastery approach, but, yeah, take your time, try to find a good school and, and talk to your instructors about what's, well, you know, what might not be working for you and give them a chance to tweak their syllabus and learn from you. Uh, it's super important to just be open with them and, and don't worry about ruffling feathers. This is paragliding and, you know, they can take it and talk to them.
Yeah. You, you mentioned something that I hadn't really thought about, uh, too much. You know, I explored this a bit with Dylan, you know,
and I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
in, in certain countries, you can't be a school and sell gear, uh, you know, that, that, that's kind of working against one another. And obviously here, most schools wouldn't survive if they didn't sell gear, you know, so it's, it, that's all, I don't need, we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. Cause that's, you know, there's lots of opinions there, but you know, you can see it, you are kind of working against it on the one hand, you want to sell the gear, but maybe this is a pilot that's not appropriate to ever even get into the sport, you know, and if you really care about their safety and their long-term health, maybe they should take up checkers. But you, you, you did mention something that, you know, in your initial course, your initial, you, you want to let them know about the costs and here's, you know, it's not just wing harness, it's all this other stuff. And, you know, it's a big upfront commitment and it's a big upfront commitment in time.
What I've heard, you also mentioned, you know, Hey, you need to know that this is risky. This is aviation. Uh, I, I think a lot of students miss that either, either the, either the instructor is, again, you're kind of working on the one hand, you want to sell a course on the other hand, you're not selling a course very well. If you go, Hey man, you could die doing this, you know, whoa, really? But a lot of people that I've spoken to over the years, when they, you know, they reflect back on that kind of getting their P2 time, we'll say, I had no idea. I had no idea that this was really, I don't know how you don't know that you're aviating, but you know, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. It's, you know, there's lots of people do you go to the point, you see all these people doing it. There's lots of kids running around.
Oh, this must be pretty safe, you know, and done well, it is pretty safe, but it's aviation, you know, and a lot of people pound, how do you handle that sticky side of it? Like you said, you know, your, your buddies were saying, man, you're not very good at marketing this stuff. You're too honest, but it is something we need to, you need to know this, you know, you're, you're going to, you're going to pay a lot of money. You're going to spend a lot of time and you're going to, you're taking, you're taking on something that is not really similar to the tandem experience you had. You know, as, as you get better, you're going to want to, we, we, we're, we're aiming for turbulence. That's, that's what we want.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's another one question where I think we're all trying to work on the best wording, right? Like it's, it's, it's paragliding safe. Right. And, and questions like that about how do you handle that? This is dangerous. What we do thing with keeping people motivated for the sport. It's a, it's a wonderful discussion. And I, I think about it and I talk to people about it and, you know, the, what I've come up with and I'm always open to, to tweaking and learning. And I constantly ask other instructors stuff. Cause I, I just want to get better at it, but I say, look, when they, when they come with some kind of question about that, like how risky is it? And the other one is hang gliding more dangerous. Right. And, and I say, well, it's the pilot, but I say, look, my experience has taught me because I was worried about the risks coming into it.
I actually took a quick jaunt towards base jumping and realized very quick, like, I don't think you can minimize the risk to a level for my comfortability. Like I, I just didn't see it working on that level. I wanted it, but I didn't want it bad enough for the amount of risk that I saw not mitigated or impossible to mitigate. Right. Nobody's climbing. I don't think many base jumpers climb down a thousand foot tower. If the wind switches, right. Like there's a lot of stuff I was like, whoa. And so paragliding just sang to me on that note. But I basically tell people, I say, look, there's, there's three primary things that my experience and the experience around me in the world of paragliding has taught me.
And one is obviously judgment, right? We're trying to teach you to have this judgment that is going on. And I say, well, I don't know, I don't know how you're going to win the day. Right. And we're going to try to have you leave this nest, understanding that your judgment is key and give you the tools to look at the weather and the site for that day. And you're operating limitations and practice good judgment. So practicing good judgment is the big one. The second one is you need to get good instruction, right? Self-teaching doesn't work well in this sport, even for some of the most savvy people. Uh, and actually, athletes, because it's very counterintuitive, I think is one of the big ones there. And so you, you know, you need good quality instruction and you need to remember it and you need to continue the education, right?
So you have judgment, you have instruction and continuing ed, and then you have equipment. You need to have good equipment, current equipment, and you need to keep up on it, right? You have to do the stuff that you know, your gliders and trim, you know, it inside out, you, it's part of you. You have to be that pilot. You got to be into your equipment and that little thing that's bugging you, flapping on your harness or flight deck, lose it, build a simulator, get into it. Right. And I've found that along with community and being in the middle of the flock, uh, when we have those things in order and we're current with them, we can usually survive the curve ball.
That are going to come. Mother nature's going to throw a curve ball. You're not going to have fueled up enough one day. You're going to make some mistakes up there. Things happen. We are throwing ourselves into the heart of mother nature and you can usually navigate those curve balls. Well, if those three things are in order, and then I tell them the stark truth is that that's the general picture that I see with incident reports is that one of those three things are in order. And then I tell them the stark truth is that that's the general picture that I see with incident reports is that one of those three things are in order. And then I tell them the stark truth is that that's the general picture that I see with incident reports is that one of those three things are in order. And 95, 98 % of incident reports, we can go, why was the pilot flying that wing? Why was the pilot flying in these conditions? Or what happened to the judgment call in this situation?
Okay. What I always
worry about, Chandler, is how do you, how do you, how do you make, how do you learn that judgment without screwing up? We always talk about cheap mistakes, you know, how much we need cheap mistakes and And, you know, over the years, I just, there's a lot of them. I've had a lot of cheap mistakes where, man, that's taught me a really good lesson, but you know, you're better lucky than good. Right. As one of the sayings I hear all the time in our sport, it's just, it's, I would imagine I've never been an instructor, you know, I've done this podcast forever, but, uh, you know, I hear a lot of good things about this, but I always think back to my own education and hearing it from somebody, even somebody that's got so much experience like you do, and has done it for so long is not the same as going out and screwing it up.
And hopefully the screw up's not that bad and it's not a broken back. It's just a big scare, something scary. And you have a collapse and you've done the training or you've done the ground handling and, oh, okay. These are conditions that are too cross, too strong, too big, too, whatever, whatever it is, you know, we've got to push to get better, but how do you push? Without knowledge.
Yeah. So, and again, that, that comes back to, well, first, what I was going to at the end of my three things is that even with all that, we still have exceptional pilots in good gear that have the training that are in their element that unfortunately these things happen. Right. And that, that makes us look and go, okay. So even though. We can do everything, right. The numbers might be small on the larger scale of how many flights we're having and how many pilots are out there, but these things can happen. And so that's, it's great to get asked that it's great to talk about it. We need to talk about it more. Um, and judgment is that thing.
I mean, when I'm what we get a lot in training students, and that is my passion is take a, to take a person and turn them into a paraglider is my dream come true that I get to do. This. I just love cultivating people into paragliders. That's the kicker, right? I can be looking at this person going judgment, judgment, judgment, but they don't understand hiking up a two hour hike setting up. Right. Well, there's some sites we hike down to, so now it's a two hour hike up to the car and their buddies are up in the air on radio, get up here and that wind switches just that little bit too much while they're totally laid out and you want to go, right?
There's these instances that are very hard to explain to a newer pilot. Like, Hey, this sounds easy here, right? Like we can talk to you about judgment all day long, but until you really get into this and get out there, there's, there's, it's very hard thing to describe because you're going to get challenged. Your judgment is going to be challenged all day long. And I can't remember what instructor it was. It might've been, um, uh, Will Gadd, I think he said, it's like a knife fight. Like you got to get out there every day. And, and I loved it. Cause I was like, that's what it's like. You have to be vigilant with that disciplined judgment. Like you just do, but you have to get after it. Right. And so I do a lot of talk about, uh, connecting some dots.
I'm trying to get better at, at being grateful and how that can help us make good decisions up there. And just really kind of connecting those dots is what. What's been working for me for the last six, seven years. And I'm trying to integrate us, uh, uh, you know, into the syllabus and talk and train a lot about that, but it's hard, right? Because you need to discern between this is it. This is the edge of my envelope. I'm taking the next appropriate step up. This isn't a bad judgment call. Like I've trained for this. I've ready to be here. It's stronger than I've ever launched. This is a small launch. There's cactus over there. It's unforgiving to my left and right. But this is where I'm at and this is what I'm doing. And you know that, okay, I'm stepping out of my britches here and, and I need to be the driver for the day.
It's a tricky thing to individually. Everybody has their own place, right? Everybody's at a different spot. And the big thing here is they get their P twos and we want and need more mentorship, right? We want them in the middle of the flock. So there's people that know you and can go, man, you maybe should have been here an hour ago. Billy, like, you know, yeah, so the, the, the flock being in the middle of the flock is, uh, is huge and community is huge for that. But I think a big part of that, that I try to do is we have like four log books. We say, look, you need four log books. You need a log book for that. You do online, which they're great. They, what these online log books now are just unbelievable.
What, what they do and breaking it into phases and Google earth. They're incredible, great learning tools. And then we want you to have another log book about what you did, right? What you want to work on, right? Oh, I'm doing really good at keeping my eyes up, looking at my spot crosswind, not getting me tuned that in, feel good about it. You know, checking the wing, good turning with more authority, you know, write down what you did good, what you feel great about today and write down what you want to work on because, uh, we talk a lot about flow state, right? Well, one of the first things about that. You need a syllabus, you got to know where you're at on it, and you need to know what you're working on.
Um, so that did self-assessment kind of thing.
Yeah. So that we like that log book and we ask them, where are you at with that? What are you working on? Because, you know, I signed their P2, they go out and get 50 flights. They go to two different countries. Who knows, right? People are out there getting after it. They're getting mentoring. Mentoring can bleed into instruction a lot, good or bad. And there's all this stuff going on. And then I see them at the hill. I don't know where they're at. And if they've been keeping that log book, the answer is much more concise and they're much more aware of where they're at. And they tend to come back to you as a coach and instructor and say, man, every time I do this, I keep doing this. You know, I keep overshooting the LZ when this happens, or I keep doing this and we have something to work with because they've been, they've been logbooking it.
They've been thinking about it and they're, they're a little more focused and that helps a lot. So. So I'd say the log book and being more detail orientated with that log book too, is critical. And as we're always saying, just kiting and ground handling is, is just, I want them to have a log book of it. And the way, one of the ways I've seen to has helped a couple of students recently is I say, if you have 40 hours flying, I want to know your hours of kiting and what percentage of your flying that is. And the
way, one of the ways I've seen to has helped a couple of students recently is I say, if you have 40 hours flying, I want to know your hours of kiting and what percentage of your flying that is. So,
oh, I've only kited 4 % of my hours flying. Well, well, let's get that up, right? Let's, let's do more kiting or anything to get that ground handling in there more and make them hungry for it. Like what parks work good for kiting on your way home from work? That's what I ask them. Have you found those? You know, have you found the, the kite, the parks that work good by your parents' house that you go visit or whatever? Like, I want you into kiting and they'll come back and they'll be like, oh, I found this park. It only takes a West wind, but after five, the West wind is great. And that's what we want. We want like good man, because it's hard in a lot of locations in Phoenix, we get zero wind or too much wind. That's generally, and the gusts, the gusts are just something we deal with.
And so they have to be really hungry for it. We, we struggle with that, right? We, we are not in Hawaii. And so they get a ton of simulator time. They get no wind forwards till they're done. I don't want to give them bruises on their arms. So, right. So we're doing all this stuff, but we struggle to find those good kiting winds and we have to fight traffic and we got to meet out here. And so, so kiting is a good one, but you know, essentially I just, you know, you don't know what you don't know, like you said. Right. It's a lot about being in the middle of the flock. It's a lot about really knowing where you're at and feeling good about what you're doing good at, because I think that creates a much more aware pilot walking up to launch going, Hey, you know, this, uh, they're much more apt to post on the forums.
I've noticed, Hey, everybody's meeting at 11. Anybody want to show up at 10? I I'd like to get there a little early in case it picks up and get off the hill earlier. Right. So, but it's. It's a tricky one. That's a great question. And it's tricky. And I think the more we just get them into knowing exactly where they're at with their skills and their log books and what they're working on, what they're doing good at, they're more prone to walk up to a launch and be like, man, I'm still having a real hard time letting this new hot B overshoot me and, you know, doing this, this isn't my day up here, like it's gusty and it's strong and I haven't put into time kiting and it's not my day, or they're going to walk up there and go. You know what? This is perfect. Like, this is on the edge of my envelope and this is my get better time.
This is my get uncomfortable, gratefully time. Like, that's what I talk about. If you're still stoked up there, you know, you got some nervousness, you got some butterflies, new site, you know, pretty handsome pilots watching you, whatever. We all deal with this stuff going on. But in general, you're like, I got this, like, I'm supposed to be here because you went through your checklist and you're like, yep, this is my next level. But I've worked. I've worked up to this and there's no red flag in my log book going, Hey man, this is a prime example of what you haven't been doing well and you need about seven miles an hour or less. They're more apt to notice it and just be aware that, Hey, I'm, I'm taking too big a jump here, you know? I
like this, this thought about, you know, having more gratitude. It made me think when you said that it made me think to a Armish with the Skywalk when I had him on the show. He's kind of a flatlands expert and he's actually one of the chapters in my book and, and, uh, you know, on, on a decent day, he'll send these huge flights and then it's up in the German flatlands. There's lots of airspace. It's pretty complicated in the whole thing. And he mentioned that, yeah, I'm, I'm always the first one off the hill. And I said, well, if you're always the first one off the hill, that must lead to, you know, also a lot of bombing out. And he said, oh yeah, I do it all the time. I always, I bomb out all the time because I've, you know, I've been, I want the most part of the day. And so I'm taking off when it's super weak. And sometimes I'm too early, you know, 10 minutes too early at half an hour, whatever it is. I said, man, that must really bum you out.
And he goes, why would that bum me out? And I, well, I don't know. You've missed a really good day of flying. No, I haven't missed anything. I flew, I landed, I'm safe. I got a lot to celebrate, you know, and it, it really changed my mindset. It just, yeah, man, celebrate the little stuff. And, and, you know, I, I run these hike and fly races and I'm always trying to just, hey, we need to celebrate walking down. You know? I hate walking down more than anybody. I've got, I've had nine knee surgeries. I've got no cuts in either one of my knees. You know, the four X-Alps, it was just, I do not walk down, but I, because it hurts. It's painful to walk down, but we've got to celebrate those times because I mean, what have you missed? Nothing.
A lifetime of flying. You can go flying tomorrow. You know, whereas if you choose that one day, I'm not too sure about this to fly. That might be it, you know? So I think this, you know, having this gratitude mindset. Is, is great. I like that because you're, that needs to be celebrated, I guess is what I'm saying.
It really does. And I'm, I gave a little talk at this recent rat route event at it and I felt it was a little, a little rough and whatnot, but I got such great feedback about it. And I have a thing where I say safety second and it kind of catches people's attention, right? Because they're like, you know, we do so much talking about safety. We do. Right. And we do so much talking about it and there's obviously a heartfelt work that the instructors and community are doing to, to, we just want this to be less incidents and more soft landings. Right. And so we're talking about it. We do all this work. And after a while I did feel the need. Okay. I need to do my part and go a little deeper into this.
Like what, what causes me? And I'm pretty experienced based. I don't want to teach much. That. I haven't done an experience as a, what do I do? Right. And so what I know about paragliding is that I had snowboarded and, and I had skied and I had wakeboarded, you know, religiously like committed my life to doing these sports because I loved him so much. And just what I got from them brought such gratitude and appreciation for the earth and this life and everything about it. I loved him. But when I paraglide. And I think. I think that that was just the other thing that came out of me. When I was like, I remember being thermaled. I looked back, I thought like I'm going to get back into what I was doing. With a golden Eagle, this time, this one time, I had goosebumps from the bottom of my toes to the tip of my head.
I had goosebumps from the bottom of my toes to the tip of my head. And I remember flying back towards where I took off. This was up at the craters. And I was like, I have to do something. And I was like, I have to do something to give back. Like, do I even deserve this? That was the next level of how paragliding just brought about this internal, what is happening here? Like, are we even really doing this? And what did I do to deserve this, right? Like, I must have done something super right in the last life, or I must have suffered for all of it. And this is the reward. It brought about that kind of feeling. And so I just realized, and so I do today. I went back and I do volunteer stuff and I keep a lot of it separate from paragliding and I try to do a lot in paragliding, but that's how grateful I felt to be like, I mean, it was just that it's on that level paragliding.
It's unbelievable. It's a dream within a dream. So I realized that I would ask myself, why do I paraglide, right? Like, why do you paraglide? We asked that to students, what brought you into paragliding? And I do. It because I want to live, live life to the fullest, right? Like I, I have that yearning. Like we all do is, Hey, I want to appreciate this life. I want to be out there. I want to be adventurous. And that keyword is live, right? We don't want to get hurt. We don't want to do this stuff. We want this to be a great experience, right? And then that line starts getting crossed in that drive to live life to the fullest, right? We start going to these extremes and it's very hard to minimize risk. And we all make.
Mistakes and mother nature's doing its thing. And so I realized that the more grateful I am the night before, right? Good flights happen the night before people talk about, and the more grateful I am and the more appreciative I am, I relate, I connected the D the dots to, uh, me wanting to hug this gentleman that was like, no, I, I wasn't bummed. I bombed out. I launched early. I landed soft. And that's what life's about. I, I, I was making better decisions and I was very selfish, uh, paragliding at first. I would do, uh, Cuervo's, you know, unsanctioned toe comps. And I had my buddies that really burned me up when they flew further than me. And I would pick up my rucksack and throw it on the ground and kick dust.
Damn
ego, that damn ego. Yeah.
And ego can be, yeah, it can be good and it can be bad. Right. But I went through that stage and I, I look back on it, like, this is ridiculous. I'm. I'm living a dream that, uh, a massive percentage of the world will never get to dream, right? I was born into the opportunity to work, to be able to achieve this. And this is ridiculous right now. I'm not going to take away the moment of kicking dirt from anybody or we're allowed to be competitive. We're allowed to have that moment. You know, it's like, I talk about speed bar and things I say, look, you need to be careful. You need to do this. I don't want to take away that glass off flight or that time. When you're ready to go full bar, right? I'm not telling you not to be the best acro or competition pilot in the world.
This does not go against that. But if you read books from professional athletes, a lot of them talk about the gratitude, uh, Althea Gibson was, uh, a black woman who crossed the lines in tennis and golf. She broke the barriers and she was a professional in both those sports at a time when crossing those lines was extremely challenging. Yeah. There's a quote that said, no matter where you got, somebody helped you get there, right? Like, like things like that. And these books I read these professionals. So I dove into that world and there's a lot of it. There's a lot of them that say the gratitude is what makes me appreciate the journey. The gratitude is what keeps me striving. My humbleness and appreciation for all that I have is the only reason I win, right?
Like there's all these things that I found diving into that world. So I've been working on putting something together. And I've just been looking at my own life and trying to be more appreciative and grateful and get back to that feeling with that golden Eagle and the things I do to make sure I deserve this dream that we get to live. And it turns out I'm making better decisions up there, right? I'm not going to push it. I'm not going to push it by the power line. I'm not going to just run that Ridge that little bit more. I'm just up there. And then half the time, it turns out I do what I teach. I teach all day long in Columbia in these places. Look, don't scratch the hill, take your altitude and go out. And then you'll have the altitude to get the thermal. If you play around in here, you're flying a thermal site, like a Ridge soaring site, and you're going to end up out there too low anyway, if you don't get whacked all day long.
And we all tend to do it. We all tend to do it. It's just going to creep in on a lot of us, right? We're not all these guru pilots that we watch and just kind of naturally have some things or work for them in a way. We don't know how they get there. It happens. And we, we lose that. And we, uh, the one I use a lot is comfortability at your home site. We all get really comfortable at our home flying site because we fly it a lot and we're super comfortable and, oh, it's early spring. It's pretty mellow. And we do stuff we wouldn't do right. The talk about competitions, it's like, Hey, if you don't have the mindset to fly your own game and you're going to start doing crazy stuff just to make that way point, you know, or to make goal, this might not be the world for you.
You got to, you know, fly your game. You got to get after it. You got to be good, but you got to get good before you get fast. And you need to follow the kind of, you know, the syllabus here, because if you're the type that just, oh, they're going, I'm going, and it's not your time to go, uh, people get in trouble. Right? So the gratitude thing to me is I started connecting those dots. And then recently I had one of my worst landings that I've had. The third worst landing I've had, I didn't get hurt, but what I ended up having to deal with was the third worst landing I've ever had. And I was incredibly stoked flying that day. We had a Northern Arizona crew or XCN together. It's so nice to team fly finally. And it was just great.
And I slipped into that like, oh, pilot hit, lift, go given up my, you know, uh, LZ. And I went. And I had in my head counted on the air being lower. Like it was upper kind of mellow day. I'm sure I'm good. And I wasn't, and I wasn't, and it bit me. And so I did some writing about, man, I was, I lost that stoke pretty quick up there. And I made an, I made an impulsive decision that I don't normally make, you know, I generally like if the LZ is there, I'm not giving it up unless that's definitive lift that I definitively have on glide. Right. And so I've been thinking a lot about how quickly we lose it and how to keep it. And the stoke just works, right?
Like, you know, I mean, I'm glad to have worked with and been friends with, you know, Marty Divieti and pilots like that, because they just have this certain stoke level and they're on that plane and the helpfulness rules and wins the day. And that taught me that it usually, it always generally works out. Yeah. To fly better. You fly better, right? You don't need to do this whole thing where it's just all this, like every little thing to get the lift. It's like, relax, you're paragliding. And I can't pronounce her last name, but Kinga, uh, I loved her. Yeah. I loved her masterclass, uh, cross country masterclass series because she talked about the top landings. And when she sees something go wrong, people are trying to force that top landing.
And what was her answer? She's always smiling. Number one. She's, she's always got that stoke going. And she said, fly away, have a candy, remember your paragliding, right? Like, and that's the truth. It's like to keep coming back to that place of like, Hey, I'm paragliding. And like you said, the big one I promote and do a lot for people as an example is like, you do not want to miss the education of the first thermals of the day. You do not want to be the late launcher.
You don't want to be like, Yeah, I have a cheapest, I can do it. And you know, I've had some of this experience where I've had to forget the first thermals of the day.
And I was like, the second time I see one that I've ever experienced, I'm like, Oh, man, this is not what I was looking for. And what I've
already seen is no future with me. It's like, yeah, I have
to do it and do it. And so I wondered why the first thermals of the day were heavier than the first thermals of the day. in the big stuff everyone's going up the the better pilots are doing it more efficiently and they have a better understanding of it but turned you're going up but it's the light drifty weird shifty ones that kind of make or break the good and great pilots and what i've found worked for me since the very beginning is having fun in them just if i'm getting frustrated if i'm like oh and somebody's blasting up in one over there and i'm in an area where i just have to work this this minimum sync thing and figure out what it's doing i love that stuff i love it and i and if i'm not that's my red flag like if i'm getting frustrated and i'm like ah whoa whoa whoa whoa i'm paragliding here i'm in a harness and i'm in the air this is what i dreamed to do in the last three days right like i've been wanting to get here and now i'm getting frustrated right and so i keep a little uh i do different things on my flight deck but in one of those uh
uh toe competitions i was in i looked over at a friend of mine dave and he had a picture of his uh wife and child on his flight deck and that was a game changer for me and i looked at him and i went that's a good idea and he goes yeah keeps me in check that's great i loved it i loved it i absolutely loved it so i switched some things i put on my flight deck i have a little velcro smiley face and picture you know of the girlfriend or the dog or family whatever's going on and i'm like on in my life i kind of swap them out but it works and it doesn't mean i'm trying to get you to be happy fluffy don't fly far guy this works to have you excel and become as good as you want in this sport the greatest athletes in the world do the same thing right they want to hold on to that spirit of this is what i've dreamed of doing this is me living life at the fullest and i'm out here falling out of flow state i'm out here getting frustrated yeah
i've i have found too that it really it this sounds too easy but it actually is easy you it's just just throw the switch you know jeff shapiro always talks about you know the irrational fear that we have between our ears and you you've just got to go this is what i came for we want the turbulence that's what makes us go up i'm in i want this you know the mark the dv80 stoke you know it's just that's all sometimes that's all i need especially in the spring i'm a little bit rusty i'm more whoa you know i i i don't not feeling very current i don't have the i don't have the you know i haven't done a comp since january and via or whatever and uh you know i gotta i gotta whoa whoa instead of whoa this is scary well wait a minute no this is why i'm here i want this and then boom and you're in and flow state comes back and then it's all okay and and that's not to say we don't need to listen to your real inputs and scary stuff and fear is great but you mentioned the podcast i just did with brett and the the nba coach and you know fear keeps us alive this is a good thing but it really is sometimes just as easy as turning on a light switch you just reach over change change your attitude boom you're in you're good yeah
i love it this discussion i i feel like we need to keep getting it out there in the world and it is an instructor's role it gets a little challenging at times to not be the the downer that they're taking you as i'm i'm not propelling you forward right there's this discernment between there's this discernment between ground suck fear and intuition right like that's what let's talk about it yeah right it's like and they'll say uh you know well i'm extra conservative and and i do this and that and i you know and i say well number one you're paragliding so let's let's lose this you're conservative thing right like you know let's let's throw that out the window and and and let's look at yeah let's look at the fact that you're here you're doing this and let's make sure you're not missing good days because you're you're talking to yourself on the ground uh out of fears that you came today for right like we want you to get in there we want you to get up there and i think a lot of the basics of that are the more simple i can make
how you feeling today one to ten like professional athletes use that and you know they'll be like i'm i'm like a nine i feel great i say well why not a ten and they go well i don't know that naturally they just don't want to say ten and i'm like you're showing up to paraglide you've done the work you got your gear dialed in man we're going up to the hill the weather looks good like okay a ten and i go awesome you know let's get up there and let's do this and then yeah the fears come and it's like well is that intuition telling you i'm going wrong or is it you know the fear trying to talk you out of a good day of flying like because we need to think about that and that's what flow state's all about right that the user illusion right flying rags for glory was a book i still held on to i love that book and he talks about that and it's it's true it's like we think we're doing all this stuff when we just need to get out of the way and so as from an instructor's point of view there's there's a dance
of like we need to push out of the nest and the student that we think we need to push out of the neck we're we're reigning back and so it's hard to really tell where they're at no matter how close we think we are with them and we're we're playing this dance of like get out there and get into it but just know that's your time and when it's your time and you've done the work go like go and when you hit that turbulence just ask yourself like is there something going on like is is it really that big i mean is it just what's going on and and most of the time if they keep it that simple and they go this is what i came for i know to feel the glider that just spooked me right off the bat turn like go you know let's do this right you came for that yeah but there is a dance there with instructors and i i have some different techniques i apply and essentially i i'm a big believer in even me up there in the air i i deal with that and i'm a big believer in even me up there in the air that right like i struggle with that and we yeah we all do and i'm an overthinker is my thing like i just i'm an overthinker and so i need it more than most and and so i i really try to keep things simple and the one that i use a lot is i say well there's no use for fear up here now once i'm in the air it's like you're up here man yeah yeah so if it's into it if it's intuition telling me i'm out of my game let's figure that out and you know put this down softly but there's no business for fear here get back in the game chandler like you know we're up here we're doing this what is it what's going on well i don't know what this is it's not a sheer it's not this and it's pretty wicked and a lot of times it's because i don't understand the air right like i i'm like what is this like this bad patch of it and that one tends to get me like wanting to call the day i'm like whoa man i don't know what's going on if this gets worse it's only 11 30 12 whatever and so that's when i have to settle back into a lot and be like you got this this is fine it's turbulence let's figure it out let's do this do that and i can get back into it but we all deal with that and that's a a funny role for an instructor with with newer students to kind of dance that line and say hey look i want you there this is what we came for let's do it and abraham lincoln said you know uh a firm decision uh you know being happy is a firm decision or something to that point like just just you know make up your mind to be happy yeah and and let's and let's do this and james bradley had a a quick note on a i think it was the USHPA newsletter but he lives in brooklyn i don't know if he still lives there and he wouldn't fly for long periods of time and you know he didn't go into it real big on the USHPA thing i'm sure but he is very very uh experienced at not flying for periods of time and then going to these competitions
and he's very well seasoned on that mindset of like and that was his note to the the USHPA community was hey don't tell yourself on the way up the hill that i haven't flown in a while right let's not let's not repeat that mantra confidence is important yeah yeah so let's let's not focus on that and let's say okay my gear's ready you know i cleaned up my gear i'm good for this the weather is this i'm heading up to the hill at a good time i've done this before this is what i've lived for i got this let's see what the weather is doing and if it's in within my kiting range let's go have some fun right but uh yeah it is a it is a funny line we dance with that uh get you out there and go for it but trying to make sure they're in the place
oh man i i can't imagine i i'm very impressed with you guys doing what you do it's it's awesome and just sharing that stoke and the passion and trying to keep people safe and yeah that is a that's a that is a tough dance hey we're up against our time a little bit but i do i have two two questions for you completely unrelated uh the first is cuervo i i didn't know that uh i didn't know that nickname i want to get the background on prentice's nickname and then the other is i haven't i used to ask this question all the time early on in the podcast and now it just pops up every once in a while but you seem like a great candidate for this one because i love the question but you've also you've been doing this a long time and you've been doing this you've been at it a long time you know you started with your dixon and prentice and these guys have been around a long time as well so i like this 50 hour question so if you could rewind to your 50 hour self and you're now who you are now and you could go back to that chandler and go hey man i got some advice for you what would it be so two totally unrelated questions but yeah and then uh we'll end there uh
cuervo's name i have no idea um probably because probably i don't know probably because he does a call that sounds exactly like a crow he does this call like her uh yeah from the air that you know when you're flying with him and at other times he does it i know he does that maybe that's where it came from maybe that's it yeah
yeah i mean he does he does kind of talk to animals he's i mean he's an animal well
and there's a thing called a crow's wind where a lot of birds aren't messing with it but the crows will go out and just do their things so he's you know he's pretty uh pretty seasoned he gets in a lot of uh crows types winds and gets out there like a lot of you guys do um but yeah i don't know but my 50 hour the 50 hour question is a great one i think i remember hearing that uh back in some older podcasts i i would be more grateful to tell you there's definitely one thing i would appreciate uh the journey and not be so hungry because it it uh it caused some scary experiences uh it caused some real close calls where i can say it was nothing obviously whatever skills i had might have helped but i i got lucky um i haven't had any big incidents but i've definitely gotten lucky and some of it was in that earlier hungrier uh time and even even a little further past that i've thrown uh reserves over water at sieves is one thing but i did throw once out in the wild and that was just cockiness it was cockiness on speed bar it was being upset at the local club with some politics i was uh officer and president for many years and and i took that up there with me and and you can't fly it you can't fly it right right like like you can't oh i mean my girlfriend got in an argument i'm going flying it's it's not a good recipe uh to to make things better so i did a lot of trying to fly it right with what was going on and it didn't work out well and i got lucky
so i would definitely say being more grateful and more appreciative and just uh really slowing down and knowing that you got to get good before you get fast and to really appreciate the journey and to add more to the community and the stoke uh is really connecting that dot for how it'll make me fly better uh because i i didn't see that it was just the skills and the techniques and i uh dustin martin was you know they were really good and they were really good and they were really good and they were really good and they were really good and they were really good and they were really good it was all hang gliders when i started there were two paragliders and i was kind of the wind dummy for hang gliders and so i got beat up out there a lot i was trying to do things that were out of my britches and i had scary things happen and then it would take that to step me back uh it would take these really close calls mistakes
you know yeah
and so i i and i didn't need to go through that i i could have been up there earlier and i could have just uh you know had a different mindset of like i don't need to go about it like this and i need to get in a better place before flying that mind game aspect uh wasn't really there for me and i would just fly when my mindset was wherever and not connect the dots to that's why that scary incident happened it's like hey things weren't going good in my personal life i was really upset and i just got to get out of here and go fly and uh i wouldn't do that like i would not do that i i would slow down and that is good advice yeah yeah it really worked for uh certain sports right like certain types of
skiing if you're if you're just really competent in something yeah i can go skiing and have my mind on whatever because i grew up skiing that's all i've done but paragliding yeah i kind of want to be all in yeah
it's it's that aviation like you said that aviation based adventure sport right like there's that next level of it that uh you have to be ready for those curveballs and so going out there with that state of mind uh i did too frequently and i i got lucky and i don't ever want to risk that again kind of thing so those are definitely a couple things i'd do different that
perfect advice a great place to end i love it and uh that was that was very visual i like that and uh dude i appreciate you your community appreciates you and i've been meaning to do this a long time no time like the present i guess but i appreciate you man and and uh thanks for sharing all that with us and with this audience and yeah man many safe flights i hope i see you out in in oregon here soon it's it's that's this rat this new concept that they're doing out there is fantastic i'm glad to see that things are happening out there again after a few years of being pretty quiet so that's that's good news yeah
it's amazing what they're doing i'm glad to be here in the summers and in arizona in the winters and thank you gavin you're uh obviously everything you're doing for the community and all you've done and your resumes just full stoke and full send and just awesome on so many levels and uh you know bringing me on the show hopefully helps uh not having a resume like like all you guys uh hopefully work for some people out there and i enjoyed the conversation and uh yeah keep doing what you do too i appreciate you as well thanks a ton thanks brother appreciate me yeah cheers all right see you if
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