Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. Hope you're all having a good winter. Winter has finally arrived here in the Rockies. It's been excellent chasing pow time the last couple weeks, so having fun with that, but thinking about flying. The season is rapidly approaching. Been watching the awesome flying going on in India and the World Cup and down in Columbia at the British and seeing some Americans do really well, which has been a lot of fun to see. And yeah, just thinking about flying. And on that note, this next show is with Emi Carvalho, a Portuguese pilot currently living in Switzerland. We interviewed Emi back for a bonus show in 2020. He's been at it for a long time and it's kind of a weather guru.
So that show was on weather and how he forecasts and all the different models he looks at and what he gleans from those to help all of you with your own weather forecast. And so we got Emi back on the show because he reached out recently and talked about bivvying with his hang glider. And I thought, man, that's the only time I've ever even heard of that. And it's with Jeff Shapiro talked about potentially doing a trip together by wing wheel trip where I would paraglide and he would hang glide and we'd do a big bivvy. And Emi's been doing it. He uses these short pack hang gliders, which are not a new thing. They've been around for a long time, but they're manageable. It's like carrying a tandem on your back. But. Narrower and a little bit longer, but not crazy long. Like you think of hang gliders going on top of a car and he's doing some really wicked adventures.
Emi started out hang gliding over 11 years ago and flies both and instructs in paragliding. And now is, but he says his wing of choice when it's the right conditions is a hang glider. And these short pack hang gliders give him access to deeper country and more places and more adventure. So I really enjoyed. This talk and hearing about how he adjusts for the two different types of choices and flying and wind and what you have to be more mindful of flying one versus the other really good comparison. He was very articulate in saying how all this goes down. So I've been describing how it all works.
Pretty inspiring stuff. So happy winter and enjoy the show with Emi hang gliders out. Cheers.
Emi, great to have you back on the show. You reminded me that we did a weather show with you quite a while back. So we might have to talk about weather again, but you've been doing some pretty fun things. I've never actually heard of vol biv with a hang glider, except from Jeff Shapiro. He, he talked about it years ago and said, Hey, we could do a bilingual, you know, bivy trip. And I thought that is just ludicrous. I can't imagine doing that with a hang glider, but he had kind of some cool systems. I'm split together and I'm excited to hear about yours, but, uh, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, Kevin. Uh, nice to see you again. Uh, yeah, the, the short pack hang gliders, they roughly speaking, uh, wait as much as a tandem paragliding set. Uh, so it's not exactly the most high can fly and vol biv, uh, approach, but it's definitely much more friendly than the standards, uh, long size hang glider. And, uh, that that's possible. Yeah. What did you call?
Short pack hang glider. So the largest difference is that the standard hang glider, when you pack it, instead of being a nice, um, backpack that you can carry anywhere, it's, uh, five meters. So that's what, 15 feet, 15 feet long or so tube, uh, that is quite problematic to transport. We usually carry it on top of our cars. Um, and, uh, a short pack one, it short packs to only two meters. So that's something you can actually carry in your car. Um, and, uh, Is
that cause
the tube then extends or how
does it look in the air compared to a standard hang glider?
It, it looks like a standard hang glider, although not the latest models. So if you compare it, uh, we are typically talking about wings from the nineties, eighties and nineties, um, or maybe two thousands in some cases, but anyway, the models are very similar to a beginner wing. Uh, and so if you compare it with any standard beginner wing, once it's assembled, it's. It's very standard, very normal.
Indeed, the biggest difference is that the standard tubes are dividable in three. And that means that you can really get it to one third of the length, roughly. And that simplifies a lot in the logistics of transporting. Of course, that has the disadvantage of taking a bit longer to prepare it, much more than paragliding for sure. But it's worth it for the special flights that you can do with it.
And was this developed specifically for kind of bivy flying? Or was this just developed so people could transport it easier and people like you are going, hey, I can use this for bivy flying?
So the company that makes this type of wings, there's actually a few. I'm going to talk about the model that I own. The company that did this model has been developing hang gliders since the 70s. And they came up in the 80s with their first high construction. And that's the paragliding fly model. Remember, paragliding was just starting then, right? So you had the option of having maybe 15 kilos or 10 to 15 kilos altogether weight with a paraglider that could fly with a glide ratio of 4 to 1, 3 to 1, 5 to 1. I'm not 100 % sure what were the marks at that time. Or you could have a hang glider that was heavier, for sure, about 25 kilos.
So that's, I don't know, 50 pounds or so. But that has a glide ratio of 10 to 1. And that was a very significant step back then. Of course, then the development of paragliding and the glide ratios that you get nowadays, you easily get better glide ratios with any competition paraglider. So that decreases the interest, perhaps, of this type of wings. And anyway, hang glider went into a very different development stage where it kept focusing on performance. And so you find wings that are much more, yeah, logistically cumbersome because they are these very large tubes that you need to move on top of your car. You cannot take cable cars.
It's difficult for air travel. But when they are flying, they have much better performances. They fly with glide ratios of 15 to 25, depends if we are talking about rigid wings or flexi wings. So, yeah. Originally, to come back to your question, sorry for the long answer. Originally, they were hike and fly machines. That was the goal.
Wow. I mean, I can't remember who said it was one of the hang gliders I had on the show and I need to get more. So that's why I'm excited to talk to you. I mean, I know you spent a lot of time paragliding as well and instructing. But, you know, I think I asked the question. So what's the main thing that's great about hang gliding? And you said, well, birds fly like birds fly, right? With your head forward. And I thought, yeah, exactly. We don't sit. You know, birds don't sit and fly. So it does make sense. It's a sexier way to move around the sky. How did you get into all this? What's your background? You're from Portugal, but you're living in Switzerland.
Is that right?
Correct. So I fully agree with that answer, by the way. It's really the body position. That is the biggest advantage of hang gliding. I'll say the wing is so close to your body as well. And the way that you control it is somewhat similar to how you will drive a motorcycle. For example, it really gives you a feeling of belonging to the wing or the wing belonging to your body. That's not so separate. It's not so separate. Exactly. Of course, with paragliding, you develop similar sensitivity to it and you have the sensibility of understanding very well the wing. But it's still. It's an extension of your fingers. Let's say a paraglider. It's an extension of your fingers, but it's not a bird flying or Superman or Neo or whatever flying creature we could imagine.
It's a different thing. It's you are seated. Right. And with the hang glider being in this lay down position, I think it's the biggest difference. Then, of course, you have the speed and the glide ratios. We could talk about that. But the biggest one is the position. So I learned how to hang glide first. Okay. I learned how to hang glide first back in Portugal 11 years ago. And the reason for it was I finished university. I was working and studying before and then I had a few savings and I figured out that I should get a hobby. Flying was a good idea because I vividly recall a trip with my parents to one of the mountains in Portugal. They are not very high, but we still have a few mountains. And I recall seeing a group of hang gliders flying.
And that stayed in my mind. I must have been, I don't know, seven or eight years old. And like I'm sure almost everyone that you talk with that flies, I also had those dreams of flying when I was a kid. So, yeah, when I had a bit of money and a bit of time, I decided to start hang gliding. That's how it all started. In Portugal, we often learn how to fly in the dunes. It's very similar in Germany. In the US, in California, for example, I think it's one of the hotspots for hang gliding as well. Where you learn in the dunes, you are typically flying with a significant amount of wind, very often too much wind for paragliders. Maybe not so much now with parakites and mini wings. But at the time when I started, those were either non-existing or less popular, the mini wings at that time.
So the hang glider allowed us to fly more often than the paragliders. And yeah, again, the body position. The body position was a big difference. But if you start thinking about traveling, then things change.
What was the – because you do both, what's easier to learn looking back? I mean obviously it's not so – that's maybe not the greatest thing to think about or analogy because you already knew how to hang glide. So you could bring those skills to paragliding. But if you were just starting fresh, what would be – if you could do it all over again, what would be the one to learn first?
I'm very glad I started hang gliding because paragliding is easier to start. And so I guess it will be similar to skiing and snowboarding, right? If you are quite – if you develop yourself in one, it's less likely that you will want to be a beginner again in the same places but with this other sport. And it will happen the same. If I had started paragliding, I think I would never even try hang gliding. Or if I was to try it, I would give it up quickly. Because it's a longer process to learn. I think in paragliding, realistically, you can get to that beginner license level, whatever that means in each country, the IPPI 3 or so. You get that into roughly 10 days. A bit more, a bit less, depends of course.
But top level, that's what we are talking about. And hang gliding, realistically, you need at least twice as much, probably a little bit more. And it's more physically demanding. Because in the beginning, you are – particularly in the dunes that I was mentioning, you are carrying the wing up and down the dune. The down is easy because you are just gliding or running down. But carrying it back up again is much easier with the paraglider.
Yeah, sure, sure. What about the risk aspect at the learning end of things? You know, with the – you know, whenever I watch somebody learning how to hang glide, I'm always kind of going, oh, gosh. You know, like the landings with the flares. And it seems trickier. But I don't know. Is it?
I think it's trickier. I will agree with that statement. Because the wing has less passive safety. In the paraglider, if you don't do much, look, the thing is not flying that fast. And it's so far from the ground. You might be on the ground or close to the ground. But the wing itself is far from the ground, right above your head. So you don't have to worry too much about that. You don't have to worry about the wing hitting the ground. You just have to focus on yourself and running and not touching the ground very fast. And if you have a little bit of wind, then it's so slow that even if you are not very athletic, that doesn't really matter. That's why you have elderly people learning how to paraglide. And they are perfectly capable of doing so. For hang gliding, I think it depends if you are learning the dune style or soaring style, ground takeoff style.
Or if you are learning to fly with a towing mechanism. Because in a towing mechanism, it can be as easy to take off. Even easier actually. Because you might have a mechanism with wheels that really balances the wing in the beginning. And then eventually you are off the ground. And there's double safety in the winch mechanism that both the pilot and the instructor can disconnect it. So you are quite safe in that aspect. But eventually you need to come forward. Before landing of course. And if you don't do the flaring appropriately. And you don't have wind. If you have wind, things get easy. But if you don't have wind or if you have very light wind. The typical behavior is that you will hit with the bars or the wheels that you usually have in a school.
On the ground and the nose. So the front of the wing goes down. And you hit it as well with your face. That's why you often see the hang glider pilots. They use full face masks. All of them. There's a reason for that. Otherwise we lose our teeth in the learning process. But then when you are. After you pass those initial steps. Where again you should be very supported by a school. To guarantee that you develop slowly and with safety. Once you pass those.
It's different. So you have different sources of risk. When paragliding or hang glider. Or hang gliding. Some of them are still the same. But while in paragliding maybe the largest issues are associated with collapses on the wing. And stalls. Stalling a wing in paragliding is a massive thing for a beginner. Of course you can develop that later on. But for a beginner that's a massive issue. That's not so in hang gliding. First you don't really get collapses. Because you don't have an inflatable wing. It's a mechanism. A mechanism with aluminium or with carbon fibre. And then you also don't really have a big issue in stalling. Unless you are very close to the ground.
Because when the wing stalls. The wings are built so that they are nose heavy. Meaning that after it stalls the nose goes down. And you regain the flight. So you could stall the wing in a standard flight. In your second or third long flight. Long altitude. High altitude flight. Without any issue. And of course that's not happening with paragliding. That would be crazy to do that. But there's an additional risk that is the landing. You need much flatter landing zones first of all. And longer as well. So while with paragliding you can land almost anywhere realistically. It's not so with the hang gliding. You need a bit more space to land.
Yeah this was the thing that always when Jeff talked about. You know vol biv with a hang glider. That was the first thing I thought. Man is very often when I'm flying vol biv. I mean it depends on where. In the Alps there's so many places to land. It's not really an issue. I mean there are of course places that are also very deep. That you wouldn't. Would it be trickier to land. I remember a lot of very tight landings in the ex-Alps for sure. But a lot of the places we are. You know there just is a lot of trees. You know thinking about doing it. For example on the trip that I did with Will Gadd. Across the Canadian Rockies. That would have been really scary on a hang glider. Just because there were so many places we had to put it down. That were tiny. You know that just didn't have a field.
Or any kind of run out. You know you really had to almost bring it in like parachutal. To come into a really tight spot. So that always made me nervous. So is I'm assuming terrain choice. And you know where you're doing these trips. Is a big part of the decision making.
It's quite relevant. Almost always when you are flying paragliding as well. You should check the landing. Or at least be familiar with how it looks. With any obstacles and so on. And that becomes more relevant for hang gliding. Particularly because of the flatness of the ground. Because when you are flying. I don't know 1000 feet above the ground. Everything seems more or less flat. Unless it's a clear slope. But when you are coming very close. It might not be so. And while on a paraglider. That's not a gigantic problem. It just means that you land in a slight slope. Or something like that. Because again the wing is very far from the ground. But on a hang glider is an issue. The wing is so much closer to the ground. That if you have an uneven terrain. You will probably hit one side of the wing on the ground.
Before you manage a perfect landing. And that will of course make the wing turn. And have a little crash. There's a few things that we can do. To get more prepared. So one of them is the choice of the wing. Of course a performant wing. A high level competition wing. Will glide like crazy. And it will have a very strong ground effect as well. That you start flying maybe 2 or 3 feet from the ground. And keep gliding for 50 meters. So you need a space. But if you have a less advanced wing. With worse glide. With worse flying characteristics. Then you will not have such a long space requirement.
You can land in shorter places. So that's one. A second one that you might see. Particularly with the high aspect ratio. The competition wings. Is that sometimes before landing. You see the pilots dropping or opening a small parachute. A drag chute. That as the name indicates. The operation there is to increase the drag. And therefore decrease the glide angle. So that you don't need so much space to land. You could use that one with any wing. But it becomes more relevant for performant wings. That need to land in tight spaces. And the third thing is.
I'm not good at that. But advanced hang glider pilot. Will be good at that. That is we can also land on slopes. Going up the slope. So while the paraglider will typically choose. On a slope to land. Across the slope. So side slope. Not going up. Not going down. Maybe going up in the ex-alps. But except that one. Is usually on the side. The hang glider will always choose to come. Going up slope. The reason for that. Is because it's important. That it doesn't hit the ground. With one side of the wing. Again. And so. If you have a slope. Usually you could make a good landing as well. As long as you have an unobstructed slope. But of course that's then again. More of an advanced technique.
How would you compare that to. You know the whole. Flying uphill. Downwind. Call it fly on the wall. Type landing. You know that Chrigel. And really Patrick. I always credit them. To that move. That happened. They started. Putting out on videos. About 10 years ago. And the rest of the world. Went whoa. Oh my gosh. And now. That the level. They're doing at. Is really extraordinary. I worked at this. Very very hard. For the. Both the 2019. And 2021 races. And never. I mean. I still. There's a good chance. I'm going to blow that. When I do. I mean. It's very. It's a very fine. Movement. With. You know. The variables. Are many. But I understand. With the hang glider.
It's. Like you said. It's. Is it easier. Or is it. Does it. We're still require. The same amount of skill. Or. Because. I mean. It's really easy. To mess up. With a paraglider. With your timing. And.
It's easier. On the hang gliding. On the hang glider. That being said. I can do it. With the paraglider. But I cannot do it. With the hang glider. Because I'm a better. Paraglider pilot. With many more. Many more flights. Than. I have. Hang gliding. So. I assume. Chrigel. Was probably. Inspired. Also. By how. Hang gliding. How. Hang gliders. Land. Because. That's. A standard. Landing. Procedure. For. A few. Decades. Now. And. Indeed. The. What makes it. Easier.
To. To. Knees. And. You. Easily. Speed. Up. In. That. Final. Approach. And. All. Of. That. Energy. That. You. Gain. You. Can. Then. Also. More. Easily. Transform. It. And. Also. Faster. Transform. It. Into. The. Right. Angle. So. That. You. Are. Going. Up. With. The. Terrain. And. Then. Eventually. Flaring. And. Stopping. So. It's. Easier. To. Do. It. With. A. Glider. If. You. Have. A. Paraglider. And. A. Hang. Glider. Pilot. That. Are. Doing. The. Same. Type. Of. cross country. Flights.
Let's.
Say. Of. Land. Down. Side. Slope. Rather. Than. Up. Slope.
So. Is. Is. The. Of. The. Coup. De. Ta. For. Doing. Bivvy. Is. It. Still. At. The. Of. The. Day. To. Top. Land. And. You. Know. Camp. Where. You've. Landed. And. Take. Off. From. The. Same. Place. Is. That. Is. That. What. You're. Trying. To. Do.
With. The. Hand. Or. Is. That. The. Trickiness. Of. Top. Landing. With. The. Hand. Glide. Or. Just. Make. That. You. Know. It. To. Be. An. Extraordinary. Good. Spot.
Yes. That's. A. Big. Difference. Between. Paragliding. And. Hand. Gliding. As. Well. Our. Vol. Be. Means. Typically. Landing. Down. Of. Course. We. Aim. To. Land. Up. Up. In. The.
In. Top. Of. The. Mountain. Where. You. Have. A. Wing. So. Much. Closer. To. The. Ground. And. The. Paraglider. Is. That. It's. Very. Easy. To. Have. It. An. Even. And. Again. Mess. Up. The. Landing. While. It's. Much. Easier. To. Land. On. The. Valley. Particularly. Because. In. The. Valley. At. The. End. Of. The. Day. Or.
In. The. Middle. Of.
The.
. With. These. Or. One. Or.
Some. Is. An. Part. Of. An. In.
then repeat on the next day or even sleep on the bottom and go up on the next day because also an important difference between paragliding and hang gliding is the logistics of packing and unpacking the wing take much longer on the hang glider and therefore you probably don't want to do multiple flights in the same day most of the time you are probably looking into doing one flight maybe two flights in the same day if you are doing volbif it may be different if you are doing tandems or if you are doing uh coastal soaring flights that's maybe a different story and you try to do a few more but uh if you are uh thermaling and doing some cross country flights you are really going for one one per day do
you think volbif with your with this hang glider setup is it is it realistic to go very deep what i mean by deep is you know in the alps you don't necessarily need to carry a lot of food because especially if you're doing a lot of hang gliding you don't necessarily need to carry a lot of food if you're landing down in the valley bottom you can just go to the bakery and get more stuff and and have a nice night and then go back up the next day like you said and if you're only really shooting for one flight rather than a morning sledder and then the big flight of the day and then an evening sled or something if you're only going for one then you're not so worried about time i imagine you can take time to have a breakfast and take the cable car up or hike you know and especially if you hike slowly you know you can save a lot of energy but the given the weight it is heavier like you said it's more like carrying a tandem kit uh is it is the approach quite different in terms of how deep you can go yeah
um well first a big difference is how much you rest after the hike so if you are thinking about taking a cable car or any other way of transport up the mountain except hiking then you might very well do it just before the flight because then you can probably assess the weather conditions better you can choose the ideal spot to go and so you go up uh you taking the the transport and then everything is rather easy if you are doing a hike you probably don't want to do that because it's going to be more tiring and so you probably will prefer to either hike up in the evening i mean after your flight for the next day so that you sleep on top of the mountain already or if you are doing just a one or two days that is what i do more often uh you might just hike up uh starting at the evening uh so for example one of the flights that i that i like to do the most here in switzerland with um
with the hang gliding with the hang glider hiking is uh on a specific hot air balloon festival that happens every january in the french side of the country and there's no cable car up there were cable cars but they have been closed for close to 10 years now and so the only way up is hiking and um last year for example i went up with the goal to fly relatively soon afterwards but then i had to be there for close to three to four hours to really just rest because i was quite tired after hiking up with with the whole gear for for four hours um this year for example i started in the evening i started was about 4 a.m went up got to see the sunrise that's going to be the first thing that i'm going to do and then i'm going to go to the hot air balloon festival which is quite magical as well with all the mountains full of snow and then waiting there very relaxed until the until the hot air balloon starting to take off so that i could then play with them i think that's the biggest difference that you need to really account properly with the time for resting after the hike because otherwise you you you are destroyed
then in terms of how deep you go uh if you are if you are looking for thermals and trying to push it you can see that the the conditions are more associated with the landing areas so depends on the valleys where you are if you if you have been flying in those places and you know that you have familiar spots where you are going to land or you studied the terrain before then i don't see a big difference between that one and paragliding but again assuming that you do have the nice flat places to land or that you have the right technique to land going up the slope not my case
if you say you're looking at the weather and i know you're you're very good at weather so you're sitting in lucerne and switzerland and let's say monday this monday looks really good and you can get a couple days off of work what kid are you going to grab you know if you if you got okay i've got a two or three day window here for a really nice local triangle bivy and maybe you can get into the ballas or something and whatever you pick it but something that looks pretty good where you can cover some of the stuff but but i don't think the weather is going to be a problem some ground for for two or three days are you going to grab your paraglider kit or your your hang glider kit depends
on the on the weather conditions if the weather are perfect for specific spots i will only choose the hang glider kit um because there there are some spots where the um the probability or the likelihood of flying with a hang glider are much more reduced than with a paraglider because of um yeah the conditions to take off or the conditions to to go up uh regarding transport regarding cable cars so for example if i if i have north wind i will always take the hang glider because i i go up uh the glacier here that is at 10 000 feet just taking the cable car easy to do with a paraglider but rare to do with a hang glider but i'm lucky enough with this short pack that i can do it um and then taking off from that direction i know that i can go either towards the east or towards the west i know that both directions have relevant uh interesting spots to land um and thus i i prefer the hang glider um if i have a strange not a strange but a more varied um weather situation where i might not have um the wind conditions to allow me to take off from point a go to point b and take off from point b easily with a hang glider um then i choose the paraglider because the paraglider is easier to take off with more varied wind conditions right you you see in the X-Alps also and maybe in in a random slope you see people taking off with backwind uh taking off with sidewind standard wind of course headwind is even easier um you don't see anyone taking off with backwind on the hang glider because the speed for takeoff it's uh it's it's higher and again the wing is closer to the ground and therefore you really need to have a little bit of help from the air already from wind to make sure that the wing is more stable otherwise while you run the movement of running creates some oscillation on the wings that if the terrain is not the best might again mean that you touch the terrain with the tip of your wing and then it's not uh then then you crash on the takeoff so um yeah if the wind is changing more i will go for the paraglider paraglider is for sure more versatile um if you have to choose between paragliding and hang gliding and you only want to do one uh i would say go for paragliding because it's much more versatile you can fly in more conditions in more places etc um you do not have the same body position feeling as a hang glider um and if you would like to have that one i think that these short pack gliders are a good direction because the increase in logistics it's visible but the it's not the end of the world again like i mentioned before it's like transporting a tandem paragliding wing kit um it's feasible you can put it under your bed if you live in a city that's easy you can transport it on a bus and a train on anywhere really um and uh and again you can access those places and have the possibility of flying in spots where only hang gliders will fly either because of the wind or because of the steepness of the terrain whatever it might be
that
was the next thing i was going to ask so i my supporter in the last couple xops revis who's also been on the show but a good friend of mine he got into hang gliding a few years ago to learn something new and to fly prone and the things that people that people get into hang gliding but also because he really likes flying big distances in nevada and nevada is one of our states that has it's the most mountainous state second to alaska uh the you know the glider pilots love flying there because the wave uh but it's also it tends to be pretty windy you know so for the days that we can fly paragliders out there they're they're when they're good they're amazing it's one of the best in the world but they're few and far between because there's there's just often too much wind and so you wanted to learn how to fly hang gliders because you can fly in more wind is that still the case with these short pack pack gliders yes
uh for sure if you have stronger wind you always prefer to be on the hang glider than the paraglider and the short pack hang gliders again when they are opened they are standard tan gliders again not competition um class the the short pack look more like a not beginner but maybe intermediate uh wing level um but that still gives you the advantage of the of the speed range that you have with with the glider so if i have for example uh 30 kilometers per hour so that's what 20 knots west
in a couple of spots easily here and similarly for different wind directions. But probably I'm thinking about going more deeply into a valley where I'm more protected and where the valley wind local phenomenons are actually the ones governing the weather situation if I want to go with the paraglider. But with the hang glider, I have less that problem. It's, I think... So more range, it just gives you more range. It gives you more range. And the range also starts at higher speed. That's relevant as well. Again, very light winds, paraglider is easier. Stronger winds, eventually paraglider stops being an option, right? And hang gliding is still an option at those higher winds. Of course, eventually there's a limit as well. That being said, I wonder if you ask me again in five years if I'll still agree with that because developments in the technology of paragliding.
We have these parakites now that can fly with faster speeds standard flights than most paragliders did before. Of course, there's also the speed wings, but that's a different type of flying. You are typically just going down, right? Unless it's really windy and then you might be soaring as well. So it seems that the gap there, it's getting shorter between paragliding and hang gliding at higher wind conditions, wind speed conditions.
Often in hang gliding, in the hang gliding community, there's a discussion, there's a discussion about what's happening to the sport and to the practitioners of hang gliding because the reality is that while in the 60s, 70s, 80s was very popular, it has been a steady decrease since then. And of course, that's associated with the introduction of paragliding because hang gliding used to be the cheapest, most affordable, most easy to learn and logistically best method to learn how to fly and to fly. Wherever you wanted until paragliding appeared and then it's paragliding without a doubt, right? And it will never become hang gliding again because paragliding is, again, just a bag,
run and fly, do deck wing is what, one kilo or something like that. The ex-Alps kids are typically two to three to four kilos. So you cannot, you will never be able to compete in the hang gliding world with that. And eventually hang gliding went into, a direction of performance. I think that there is space for this adventure type of hang gliding. And we have been talking about vol biv, but I will expand it and call it more adventure type of flying because you can just take the wing to places where you wouldn't otherwise take a hang glider because of the logistics of carrying it. Just in the last 12 months, I've flown in the desert island, I've flown from the glacier, I've landed on a,
frozen lake, I've flown with the hot air balloons and I'm a beginner to intermediate hang glider pilot. It's not that those were incredibly difficult flights per se, is that the logistics are incredibly difficult for a standard hang gliding kit. But for the short pack, suddenly it gets much easier. So I think there's some place there for the short pack gliders to occupy a place for someone that has been paragliding that wants to try, something new, but doesn't want to go all the way to the competition hang gliders because again, the logistics are a bit of a, not necessarily a killer, but a big obstacle at least.
For the listeners, Emi, who are paragliders like myself and have spent their lives or most of their time under a rag rather than a rigid, what would they be looking, who are inspired by hearing your story here today, what would be a reasonable amount of time they could look at to have to dedicate to learn how to fly a short pack well enough to start doing these types of trips?
I think a short pack glider is controlled exactly the same way that the standard one is. So basically you need to go through the standard process of getting your license, but then instead of choosing to buy the most common long hang gliders, you'll buy a short pack one. And there's, I believe at the moment, three companies that sell this type of wings. All of them are still active. All of them are still selling new wings. And you see a lot of them in the second hand market as well. In hang gliding, the second hand market, it's very relevant because again, there's less pilots and therefore there is more wings. There are more wings for less pilots that are searching them. Therefore it's probably cheaper. And the wings tend to be more durable as well than paraglider wings.
One of the ones that I fly, for example, is from 89. And it's still, it went for a quick check recently. They made one or two replacements of some cables and that's it. Other than that, it's in good conditions. So it's the standard process to learn how to hang glide. And to learn how to hang glide, I think the biggest difference is that, you want to learn locally. I think paragliding probably about 70 to 80 % of people learn locally and 20 to 30 % of people learn on a paragliding trip. At least those are the statistics that I remember reading. I used to work for a school focused on paragliding trips. And I think for hang gliding, you want to learn locally.
And the reason for that is because it's going to be less reliable that you'll be able to fly five days out of seven. So there's going to be out of those five days, one is going to be bad wind. The other one is going to be too much from the side. The other one is not going to be windy enough. So you will have two days that are perfect for learning in your local area. And therefore in the process of going to the classes, whenever you have the availability, you can expect to get your license. Depends again of how much education you put into that, but top level from six to 12 months, if you are dedicating weekends, for example, or every odd weekend to it. And then once you get your license, you can already be doing this type of flights because they are not technically more difficult than the others.
It's really technically, they are exactly the same. It's just the access to the takeoffs that with a standard hang glider, it's quite difficult. With a short pack, suddenly it becomes much easier. You can basically go and take any cable car that paragliders take or bus or boats or trains or whatever. I even use an electric bicycle with a toolet that is this little car that is connected to the bicycle where my daughter goes in. And so I put the toolet and I put the stand up paddle on top of it and the glider fits perfectly in. So it's really easy to go anywhere. So the short message is that, the logistics become much more easy.
It's the logistics that are the change here, not really the skill necessary to fly. Those wings fly the same as the others. We'll be somewhat like talking in paragliding, talking about a standard double surface wing and a single surface wing. We fly them more or less in the same places with the same conditions. One of them is probably easier to carry up the mountain.
We'll have to put up a picture on the website when we post this. We'll have to put up a picture on the website when we post this. just with your gear i'm having trouble imagining is it what is it a still a backpack and then you've got the rods over your shoulder or sorry the tubes over your shoulder how does it what does it look like probably
you want to imagine um uh one of those bags to transport your ski gear yeah not necessarily just for two skis but probably the family size uh yeah so for you for your wife and for the kids um and then you have it on your back it's the exact same size same dimensions i actually i actually also have uh one of those um um ski ski backpacks to put the hang glider on it's a little bit tight but it works and it has advantage that it has the wheels while my standard uh carrier doesn't so depending on where i go i might put it in one or the other um and then yes you carry that on your backpack on top of that or you carry that as your backpack and then on top of it you have your harness uh that you somehow attach either on top or on the side uh i'll send you a few pictures from hikes so that you so that you can imagine it but um yeah imagine a standard hike and fly paraglider kit and now triple or quadruple the size uh vertically up and down uh that that's what i'm carrying but
a lot of people don't know about that it's a lot narrower like a ski bag i mean like like you said a family size ski bag so it's not the big fat thing that we carry with paragliders just longer correct uh that doesn't sound too bad i mean if you were going to on a two-week trip somewhere uh with with your family you got kids uh you're you're gonna go somewhere you're gonna go to south africa to fly for two weeks and hang out with the family would you bring two kids would you bring your paraglider kit and your hang gliding kit or is that too much
i usually take six three but maybe i have a very comprehensive family that allows me to do these things i usually take a smaller paraglider if it's windy a standard paraglider or a little bit larger if it's light wind and the hang glider yes um as long as i'm not uh going on uh you said south africa so probably to go there i will have to fly so i was actually answer if i can drive there uh if we are going for uh for a tour in the in the van um if i'm flying then i probably uh either choose one or take both if i'm going alone uh if i'm going with the family realistically i i just take the paraglider because uh i know that i will not have so much time anyway to to fly and the the time that it takes to assemble the kit and to disassemble it so instead of being five minutes with a paraglider 20 minutes if you are doing it really slowly it becomes roughly one hour with a hang glider for both packing and for uh unpacking and so yeah that's time that i'm not flying if i'm if i'm doing that and my family is waiting um it that will be the the only limitation or the disadvantage associated again with paragliding is or with even standard hang gliding kit is how much longer it takes to to unpack it again compared with paragliding that's very relevant compared with hang gliding it's maybe 10-15 minutes more than the standard time anyway so it's not uh it's not a gigantic difference i
mean particularly
if you are flying once a day
yeah it doesn't doesn't sound like this is something that could happen given the length of time for for setup and tear down you know hike and fly race for example but when you're telling these stories i'm imagining something like the verco fly but in a hang glider i mean is it is it again you're not going to be racing for the podium but could you do it would it work
so the verco very often focuses on multi flights per day and usually the idea is really typically maybe four or five flights in the same day right so there you will have to limit it you will have to do it in a different process maybe you if you are doing three flights in the same day it's not it's not pleasant anymore then it's really just pushing it and it's pushing your physical limits i mean and it's not so it's you are not going to find joy at least i will not find joy in in doing that while with the paraglider i would um i think you if you were to i was discussing it uh recently with uh uh one of the two hang gliding instructors that are active in portugal there's only two left and i was discussing the idea of how to um how to adapt the X-Alps for such uh um tiny hang gliders and uh we were thinking that it will have to be a different process where we will probably uh accept some support to go up not everywhere yeah but in some places like you have night passes right now for hiking at night right or running at night yeah you will have a mountain pass or something like that where you could take uh some sort of transport to go up um and then you'll have to have shorter distances particularly in the beginning and certainly the level if if a race like that was to to to start
the original level of the hike and fly hang gliders will be so much smaller so much more so much low compared with the hike and fly paragliders that um maybe what you do in one day in the ferco fly maybe you will do four days uh with the with the hang gliding uh version of the competition yeah
that would be cool i mean i'm imagining just how neat it would be to do a little hut to hut trip in the future i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know not even as a race but just as a just personally that'd be you know there's they're everywhere in the alps and that would be a kind of a fun way like you said if you had the fly on the wall landing down and and a lot of the huts are in places where there are fields relatively close you know maybe you could put together a little route that would work like that but uh yeah super super inspiring you've mentioned several times and we all know this that hang gliding is is uh continually suffering in terms of numbers for many many years now uh do you see this as potentially bringing some interest back as a potential to bring people back to the sport i
think so that being said i'm talking about what i like to do the most right i i explored paragliding hang gliding hang gliding with standard kit and with the smaller packs and eventually i found that this is the one that i like the most out of all so yeah um i'm certainly biased in giving this answer of course because i'm talking about the thing that i like to do the most uh that being said uh i'm not the only one with this idea uh recently on the pilot um magazine of the USHPA um there was an article as well about um from a hang gliding instructor based in california about the possibilities of
or at least giving a little bit more of fresh uh new people starting the sport uh with this in mind and that's created a certain debate in the community where most people that are practicing hang gliding right now they disagreed most people that were replying to the article were saying no we don't think that this is actually going to be something that will have people interested that being said hang glider went into the direction of performance in in their development and therefore the pilots that remained are naturally pilots that are also biased into the direction of performance so here we are discussing if there is new public not the standard hang gliding pilot that exists already but new public that will start hang gliding and so i still think that yes the answer is yes that that exists um i'm not sure if that will be paragliding pilots that want to try something new because then again it's like a very good skier and now you are starting to do snowboarding or vice versa might be more focused on people that are not yet flying that they did a tandem uh hang gliding tandem and the paragliding tandem and they figure out hang gliding is the one that i like the most um and then what are my options and usually if you give them the other options the standard hang gliders they say yeah maybe not because the logistics are too complicated i think if you add these into the menu they will say
no but if you give them the other options they will say no but if you give them the other options they will say
actually i could take this one i could learn i could have it stored in my apartment i can carry it inside of my car i don't need to adapt anything no large changes in my lifestyle and i can just go and fly whenever i want in different places than i would usually um and i think there's a market for that because i can fly was also not a thing in paragliding until 20 years ago let's say right in the beginning of the 2000s okay the ex alps were starting but it was not really a massive widespread uh group of pilots that were flying and now uh at least uh in in the school where i was teaching until recently uh we i don't have any more time because i family um but in the school we were getting maybe one out of three pilots wanted to go and do hike and fly not not competing but they wanted to go up the mountain and fly down um so it's massively changed the possibilities of the sport and of course you have acrobatics and you have mini wings and you have um different different types of uh ways to enjoy paragliding in hang gliding you don't really you just have one way of enjoying hang gliding at the moment or mostly that is these performance wings uh flying in competitions or outside of competitions and having these adventure possibilities that a short pack hang glider can bring i believe that it will open the sport for more participants to to start
uh
emmy one final question this has all been super fascinating and um yet again every time i talk to somebody who hang glides i'm always very inspired and i need to just take the leap like you said it's if you ski it's hard to take the leap to the to snowboard if that's what your jam is and paragliding has just been my jam there's like you said there's so many different ways to enjoy it but flying prone just sounds awful sexy uh if you could rewind the clock back to you've heard this question many times on the show but it sounds like 11 years ago and you could tell that emmy what you know now what would you tell that emmy would you change anything would you would you do anything differently
definitely i will get one of these short pack gliders released early and i might not have started paragliding because of that because then i still miss out on once more reasons and i start thinking about going paragliding as something that i could travel with and be able to fly in different countries easily
that being said paragliding having the possibility of doing both really plays in my favor for these adventures because i very often go and fly with a paraglider first to to fully understand the place before doing the commitment of hiking with hang glider to fly there so i guess that going in the the direction of also paragliding I would eventually have done that as well but I would definitely have done much more hang gliding flights as I made the choice of buying if I knew that they existed if I made a choice of buying a short pack hang glider sooner they are not more expensive they are not flying flown differently they are just a different way of packing the same type of wings and the advantages that that brings outweighed the disadvantages the losing a little bit on the glide ratio and the the extra time of setting up or packing the material
fantastic man good stuff he said really inspiring and I look forward to maybe getting over in your part of the world and sharing this experience with you it sounds it sounds like a hoot and you're in a very good part of the world. world to do it I need to spend more time over there whenever I possibly can so uh thanks Emi thanks for sharing this all with us this was not something that was on my radar I didn't know that this even existed so very cool you're
welcome thank you for having me and uh yeah anytime that you come by if you are in the alps uh you might let me know I have an extra hang glider we could go to the to the to the training slope you can run down the the slope with the glider in one day you manage to take your feet off the ground for sure I'd
love to that'd be great Emi appreciate it man uh enjoy the rest of your winter thank you very much hopefully see you in the spring thank
you see you soon Gavin if
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