Hi
there, everybody. Welcome to kind of a, I guess you'd call it an emergency episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I got a voice memo two days ago from Chrigel, who was out training. I thought that was kind of cool that he left me a voicemail or voice memo when he was training. But on this whole raging safety debate that's going on online, if you're paying attention to the socials, which hopefully you aren't, just in general, I think that's better for our health, our mental health. But there's been a pretty loud calling for resignations across civil. And this all came out of the accident, the fatal accident down at the Worlds in Brazil.
And we were planning on doing a whole show on just that with the various voices from the civil side and from the athlete pilot side. And without going into too many of my opinions here, as I have a lot, it was great because Chrigel just reached out and said, hey, I've got some opinions on it. Well, those opinions would be better than mine. And Chrigel, you know, everybody knows Chrigel and his background and highly respects his opinions. So without giving you too much here, here it is. Here's Chrigel's thoughts on what's going down in the safety debate. And potentially some solutions and some ways forward.
Enjoy.
Chrigel, great to get you back on the show. And I'm glad you left me that voicemail as you were training. I thought that was pretty fun. I could hear that you were hiking up something pretty hard. And you have some thoughts about this kind of safety debate. Why don't we start with what's happening? You've seen it just like I have. But what's what's going on in the social media world? And what is it? What is this debate? And then we'll dive into your thoughts on on safety and where we should go from here.
Yeah. Hi, Gavin. Thanks for having you. Yeah, I made many thoughts about the discussions I saw in social media and and in the paragliding world. And for sure, I was thinking about, but I was not coming to a clear answer because I think it's it's so many topics that we can discuss. And I just. I just have 20 years experience in competition and paragliding, also in developing and thinking in different ways. And yeah, it's nice that you have some questions about.
Yeah, I you know, you're the first thing that I that I thought when you left me the kind of voice memo the other day was that we kind of go in waves with this, you know, that the the Peter heater accidents and really was the what led to the banning of the open car. Class and the development of the CCC class. And so, you know, it kind of goes in these waves of of safety and then back to performance. Talk about that, the history of that. And obviously, we're in the wave right now of safety.
Yeah, that's true. When I started paragliding in ninety eight, there was I think the most dangerous part was over because the competition wings in ninety five and ninety six. Was really danger. And then it could go back to more safety and it goes also to more light and then it becomes more safe. And I was quite lucky to become a pilot in this period where the gliders was quite okay. I remember we had glider where the top speed was more than seventy five eighty in two thousand eight nine and then with the new concept of the shark nose. The glider was. Even more rigid and and fast and then we got the new rules.
I think it was a hard step to accept this, but the rule became friendly and everybody was agreed that that the rule to have a CCC class was important to have it reduced the top speed for sure, but it also reduced the safety of the accidents. And finally. We. We have gliders which are again really rigid and fast and in strong conditions. It's always for me a bit stressful to handle it with fear and good feeling, and that's why I think the discussions are quite quite okay to have some more easy gliders in competition, because in fact we do a game in the air we fly competition, but the gliders are doesn't matter how good performance.
We have I think in the in the other way to have record flights cross country record flights or speed records we need good performance, But in, in competition, when you fly clear task, there the performance is not that important, and that's why it's, it's a good thought to have easier gliders in, in this year's, I see that the new category of C gliders. We have I think in the in the other way to have record flights cross country record flights or speed records we need good performance, But in, in competition, when you fly clear task, there the performance is not that important, and that's why it's a good thought to have easier gliders in, in this year's, I see that the new category of C gliders. They work quite good as long as they fly. But in the end it's a two liner. If we have big collapses for sure you have to handle it. You have to be good as a comp pilot. That means the category C it's not there really true category.
But if you do a lot of hours with these gliders and you go step by step faster you can you can learn to handle it. But in the end there is a is still the parallel. Because we have to answer it's a really dangerous sport for you can be really dangerous.
And this means also yeah we have to be prepared for it.
Finally I'm not have a clear answer and solution, but to have. That's not it's always good.
You went again going back to your message that you sent me when you were training you had a. Kidding. A an interesting breakdown of when you're when you are flying competitions you know 10 percent were this 40 percent was this 40 50 percent was this what break that down for me again yeah
This means that that when I fly, um, I get a feeling, uh, depends of the conditions, and I think, uh, with the CCC glider, I feel 40 percent of the time I feel a bit stressed, 50 percent of the time I feel okay, I mean during transitions, during termling or whatever, but 10 percent of the time I'm really stressed, I'm really feel that I'm on the limit of my skills, of my feeling, and of fun, and I don't know how, how you feel on a comp wing, but for sure it's more intense in the Alps, maybe it's 15, 20 percent I'm get really at the limit, while in flatland maybe it's two or five percent, but I think, uh, to, to have more fun and resources for the competition, we have to reduce the stressful percentage of the airtime
You and I have similar thoughts, I think, when it comes to there's a lot of comparisons we can make to motocross, mountain biking, downhill mountain biking, F1, these sports that are really visible, much more visible than paragliding. I don't know a great deal about those sports, but I know that these are very professional athletes at the top end. You know, they're, they're, they're, they take the training very seriously, uh, they take the risk very seriously. They, they're, they're not ignoring certain things; they don't just jump in an F1 car on race day. There's, there's a lot of training that goes into what they're doing, uh, when this debate first got went out because I'm an organizer as well, and I'm, and a meat director, and I put on these competitions, I was quite sensitive to it because I know how much goes into it.
And Martin Shiel and I both share, I know, similar thoughts on competition is that the, the, the trend for the last bunch of years has been to put more and more of the onus on the organizer and not on the pilot. And he, he gave a really good talk at the, at the World Cup in Grindelwald where you and I were that, you know, he feels strongly that this is the wrong direction of things that because a task is set and because the meat is on that a pilot just blanks out on their, their own personal safety and, okay, I'm gonna go race. You know, we all know that in every discipline when you go from recreation to competition, you're going to take more risks.
Your ego is involved, you're racing, you're going to take more risks automatically, but, uh, that, that, that, that is being pushed more onto the meat organizer in this case, civil. Uh, when I first saw that, I, I really personally, I didn't like it. I, I really feel like Martin's onto something here that You know, we as pilots have to always, we're the pilot in command, we have to be the ones responsible. You had some thoughts about training, uh, that you know, in competitions, often these pilots just show up for the comp, five their CCC glider, go home, pack it away till the next comp, yeah.
That's the, that's the truth, and I see different, different, um, topics. There is, uh, what you say about the other topics, there is a hard selection in, in PWC and in World Championship, we have selection, but, but it's quite easy to go there without enough experience and there to have better selections, maybe less athletes in the front can be a different. And then the other problem, we have an athlete, I mean, a human in competition, it's quite stupid, so
What I know from myself that in in a hard competition, I'm not myself anymore. And if I have checklists, or in a team—I mean, in a competition like X-Alps, I have a team that can lead me, that can stop me. But in a flying competition, normally, as once you stay in the air, you are your own boss. And then human in competition are stupid comes into the play into play in the solutions, and this is a really big problem we have, uh, in all sports, but especially in in paragliding competition, if
You could make a difference today in selection. What, what would be the criteria for, say, flying—even just flying a CCC glider—in competition? You know, would it be a certain amount of hours of SIV? Would it be? What would you suggest? Yeah,
For sure, you need more praxis on, on your gear. I mean, it's not only the gliders, it's also the harnesses, um, instruments, for example. There is less visibility of the instruments at the new harnesses, um, there is different rescue systems. I mean, cross rescue, rogalo, cutaway, whatever, you have different systems and you have to train this. I mean, to do two or three times in a year a training, or especially before a competition, you do a training with your gear. It's, uh, it's really recommended and, for example, to fly a full stall to reopen a cravat after collapse, it's, I think, a need to, to do it gives me a better feeling.
I'm honest, I'm not do all, all flights full stall, but, but I do some sessions where I try to refresh my good feelings. To be ready and prepared for a competition, but to be honest, on a CCC glider, it's not that easy like on a C or D glider. And so, the the border to do it, to practice more, it's even harder, and it gives me a, yeah, an extra, uh, I need an extra day to do this. I need a place over the lake, I need organization, but I think to be professional, or to be a good competition pilot, I have to do this, especially before the comps, and then
take off in strong wind conditions, take off in backwind conditions, and then the hours to fly, the hours in the air to be, to be friendly with the speed system with the with the feeling you get, um, to be comfortable, and and then you can go into a competition, and how you do the selection, everybody have to do by own at the moment, but I think maybe, maybe for the future, it needs rules to bring the experience and the training into a competition do
You think that? So, I—I know a trigger point for what is happening right now on social media was the—there was a, a very bad accident at the, at the Worlds down in, in Brazil. Uh, there were a lot more accidents at the last Worlds in France. There was no, no deaths, but a lot of reserves, uh, quite a few injuries, a lot of incidents. Uh, there was the Superfinal and Disentis. Uh, but after hearing from you just a couple days ago before we did this show, I was speaking to Ed Ewing at XC Mag, and I might have this number slightly wrong; it's either 37 or 39.
Uh, and statistics in our sport are, you know, it's, it's, it's not like, uh, jumbo jets and the ffaa. It's, we're, we're really battling, trying to get proper data on, on accidents, but both from competitions, but, and also recreationally. But he thought that in Switzerland this year, so either 25 or 24, I'm not sure what calendar year, but, uh, there was 39 deaths, uh, in this, in the sport, and I believe all of them were recreational. There was, maybe, there was one or two, I can't remember, but were in competition, but I feel like that gets lost in this discussion, you know that because
In competitions, they're more public, I guess you will. There's, there's more people watching, there's more people there, uh, and it's a big deal, and it should be a big deal. The loss of life or a big accident is, is not something we should just gloss over, but it's a wicked dangerous sport, just period. And, and I think we lose that side
That's getting lost in this discussion right now. That, not that, that because there are so many deaths in Switzerland, and it was about the same number in France. I understand, and that's not unusual. That's not an unusual number; it's about what it is. It's just, it's not a safe sport, and so I feel like people kind of put that under the rug sometimes. Yeah,
I think it starts still, uh, quite early in the in the flight school. In the flight school, you get the feeling paragliding, it's the safest sport in the world, and it's not true because after two seconds you are quite high and it can be dangerous. And I think if you start, um, I don't know, mountaineering, you learn to wear a helmet because it's really dangerous to get rock full, for example, and and therefore maybe you learn to fly with a wrong set mindset, and and then it, it goes on with the competitions. Then maybe there is a good competition, then you get a good feeling, and it goes on and on until something, uh, happened, and when I watch back the last, um...
Years, we always had years with more and some years with less, or not—no accidents. And I don't know why, but over the past, it was always more and less, more or less. And always, when we had a lot of accidents, athletes and organizers start to think about safety, and everybody's crying about safety. And in the years we not have so much accidents, everybody is crying about efficiency in the gliders, in the equipment, and nobody looks for safety. And and then it, it goes up and down like this. And it was even when I start paragliding, some good pilots explain me this phenomenon.
And I can't, yeah, uh, look back the 20 years and it was always a bit up and down like this. And now, this year was a really bad year with a lot of accidents, bad accidents, and it's clear that people ask for more safety. And I think it's good to think about, and I think to get new rules with leads the stupid athletes, uh, myself include, um, in competitions, what
Would be some of the things you would focus on. What, what are you seeing that are contributing to this worst change recently?
Yeah, that's that's always, uh, good questions. And there is no clear solution. If we have the feeling the organizer have to bring more safety, the organizers will organize less competitions; they will organize competitions in area where it's quite safe, means. And finally, we have rules, too many rules, which says if it's a bit cloudy we don't fly. It means we have only competition in very boring conditions. And then, um, you have to go with this or you lose it and you leave it. And maybe it's, it's, it's a good way because, uh, we, yeah, we need more safety, but then the other side, I think we can have
more um, talking, talk about this safety topics and finally to bring more training and and more rules for the equipment, what makes the the sport more safe, but it needs time. We as athletes, we have to rest to to us to respect these rules and to train with these rules to have the confidence and the fun back in competition. That's
more important at the end, yeah. Um, I absolutely feel they're doing a—I mean, I, as a, as a meat organizer, but also as a pilot who loves to compete, you know, there was a lot of talk this year in the Red Bull X-Alps that it's too dangerous. You know, it's, it's, it's too windy. It's too much fern. It's the, the, you know, Ferdy should shut down the day. You know, they should, they should have, they should have a certain parameter and then you, you, you close the day. And I just violently am opposed to this because it, again, comparing to these other sports that are really dangerous, there doesn't seem to be this, oh my God, we need to shut everything down. Somebody died. I'm not, I'm not trying to be callous about death, but if
we start operating like that, then like you said, we only fly in the perfect conditions. Boring. We only fly the perfect tasks. Boring. Boring. You, Patrick, there are people who on day two can perfectly handle those kinds of conditions in a, you know, I'm, I'm using finger quotes here in a safe way. You've trained for it. That's, you know, you, you, you, you're operating. I talked to Simone after not about the podcast and he felt like that day was perfectly within his realm. He, he, you know, it wasn't perfect. It wasn't great. But it was, he had trained for that. And so, you know, that doesn't just that. That, what that says is maybe not all 32 in the race should be flying that day, but it should be up to them.
It should never be up to 30. Where do we start and stop with these parameters? And, you know, this whole thing that, oh, well, yeah, but they're setting an example for everybody else. That's ridiculous. I don't watch you fly and go, yeah, okay. That's what I can do. That Gavin McClurg can do that. No, I can't. I'm not Chrigel. I can't do that. So that's just, that would be stupid.
So, yeah. I think that again, from a meat organizer, meat organizing standpoint, uh, we, we can't, we, we can't for sure know that the weather is going to be what's on the forecast. And so the task committee is inevitably going to get it wrong. Sometimes, hopefully not. They're good and they're professional and they've made a lot of tasks. I mean, I've been on the task committee down in Mexico for 10 years running. Sometimes we goof it up. Sometimes we don't necessarily. We don't necessarily nail it. And we have one, one leg of a task that's too into too much wind and that can be dangerous. But is that the task committee's fault? Is it, you know, or is it the pilot's responsibility to fly it in a safe way or not fly it?
That this is beyond my ability. I'm going to go land. I, I've said a lot there, but thoughts.
I see that too many rules are too complicated in, in this, uh, way, but I think there is a, uh, one way in communication that means if they do a briefing and speak about, uh, safety and pilots, um, that they have to make all the decisions by your, by them own, and then they give penalties for some, um, parts of day, what, what, what was not really not dangerous, then it starts to be really tricky to, to understand and to respect, um, the, the things. So if you speak before. For a competition, what it's okay and with where is to stop, I think there, then you can be prepared, but, uh, as long you, you like to do the hardest adventure race and, um, yeah, it's difficult to, to stop, uh, the tasks.
It's the, it's a bit, the similar part in, uh, in cross country competition. When you speak about level one, two, three, um, as long as you can speak in the radio, it's level one. Um. Uh, some of, uh, the good pilots can speak about level two, but when it's level three, the pilots are not able to, to communicate anymore. For example, um, I see that, that there can be, uh, uh, uh, a better, um, like, I think the pilot is not the right to be in a committee, but maybe some marshals, a marshal committee, that means in the air or in the competition. But they are not taking part in the competition, they can take clear decisions, then they can almost, um, communicate because they can then kind of, uh, we realize danger part and then they can react on it.
And sometimes in the, um, yeah, it was, uh, easy to see something, but because I was a pilot in the competition, I was not responsible to react or I know. And with the committee, what has a good effect can be, uh, a next solution.
Hmm. You know, they changed the, the fly master trackers. Yeah. You used to just have to call the levels on the radio. Now you can do it basically anonymously. I mean, the scorekeeper would know, but that, you know, cause you're right. There's, there's been this, it's a cultural thing. People don't want to call level three a, you've got to land. If you, if you call level three, but also it's, there's funny stuff there. There's shame or I don't want to be the one to do it. And, uh, so now you can just press a button. This is harder on the subs cause you can't get to your instruments, but you, you, you, if you can get to this little device that they give you before going out on the comp, it's kind of nice. You can just hit level one, level two or level three, and it provides all the information, your altitude and position, everything else.
So that there are things like that, that I really. Think are really good moves forward. You know, that that's, if somebody has thought about that, okay, this is a problem we have in our culture. It's very hard to change a culture, but you can give somebody a different instrument and okay, well then there's no shame. I can just press the button.
Uh, more on the pilot side of things. Um, you, you, you mentioned too, that, you know, to really critique an organizer, you should organize a comp. Oh, let's see what it's, see what it's like.
Yeah. I also organized some competitions and you want to do it as good as possible. You have the challenge to make it a interesting task, um, but also a safe one and yeah, you know how it works. You, you try to do it as good as possible and you spend a lot of invest time, passion, and, and then if the weather it's good and everybody it's safe back. It's a really good feeling.
And if something happened, you, you never know if you do a mistake or there was a unlucky place. And I think in one way, it's good to have the rules to keep on it or to, to, to go with the clear structure. But then the other side, you also have to accept that you do a competition outside with the weather. They can change. And maybe. Maybe to speak more about this with the athletes, it will be, um, also important that, that mean that the athletes are more in void in the problems. And I think as soon every athlete has to do his own task, they understand better what's the problem for organizer.
And it's always for me. I mean, when I start the competition, I was 16 and that was really happy to go. There. On a place where everything was organized. There was a shuttle, there was a place. Uh, there was a Marshall. They say, okay, window is open. Everybody. It's fine. And then, you know, that, or you get the feeling that, that you are on a place where nothing can happen.
And maybe if we, if we turn in the other way that the organizers say, okay, welcome to a horrible race. Um, the weather it's horrible. Turbulent. We go up. Because we try, I mean, this way can be, um, right, uh, more, uh, honest athletes understand better what they do, and yeah, in the end, we have to, to be clear and and honest, to to have a race in the air where everything can happen, and if you start a competition with this focus, it means you have to train more, you have to think more about problems, and to be prepared for the problems, and in the end, you
know, if you start as an athlete, you know better if you want to do this or not, if you take this risk or not. And if you want to do it, you also get the confidence and the fun. I'm sure, hmm, yeah.
I think it's, it's often I have found since I started organizing and and me directing, it's a, it's a hard balance to find. You know, my objective is always to get everybody in the air, you know, as as much as I can. If the task committee and weather crew feel like we've got a window, then I want to give it to them. Like, like, uh, Martin did that, I think, was the second task in Switzerland. You know, it was, it was raining all morning and we had this little tiny pop and we, we went and had a really fun little mini task. You know, so I always feel like that's the, that's the goal. And if what I, what I really worry about when I see this kind of attack on the organizations is there's not that many people willing to do it.
Um, there is really no money in it, uh, you know, it's all, it's a passion project for everybody. And I think if you, if you, if you press too hard on this, on safe, then you just never have tasks. You know, it's, it's, it's only, you know, so they're only going to happen on the perfect days. And, uh, the, a lot of the fun gets pulled out of it. Then for me, you know, the, the, those, those days are fun. the perfect days are great but it's the days that are kind of on the edge or tricky or technical or stable you know these are these are ones that these are the ones we remember yeah
There is, for example, in F1 in the rain, you have to put wheels on with profile rain wheels, and maybe on some days when you can see that the conditions are tricky, or you go into a area like the mountains, the organizer have to say, "Okay, today we fly with B-wings." And if you go out in flatland and the day is really good, no wind, you can say, "Okay, CCC wings are okay." But that means you need more than one gear, and but in the end, it's the—it's the organizer, they give the rules and they say what you have to do, um, and yeah, and as I say, I don't know the perfect solution, but but in the end we have to be more
We have to realize better what we do as a pilot.
Chrigel, we've covered a lot of ground. Lastly, I want to finish on: you had some thoughts about the gear side of things too? You know, you've been a designer developer for Advance for a long time; your brother is as well. I had a great conversation with him, by the way, and and Neeson was—you, you guys raced through it, spent a lot of time with your brother, we had a blast. But what, uh, anything to say on the gear side of things? Because we, well, we talked a little bit about, you know, the open class and then the CCC, which seemed to be a very good move, uh, but anything else? You mentioned harnesses.
Yeah, in the in the end, we have to to develop new stuff. Uh, manufacturer will do, yeah, there do business and they develop new new gear, and I was really surprised in the last uh years how how they can do progress in performance and safety in in handling in weight. Uh, but in in the other side, they push really in a in an efficiency direct in a direction where the gear is efficient, what means also that we have to to accept some some compromises. I mean, the new harnesses, they have quite a small back protection, for example.
I'm, I can see in in hike and fly, the harnesses with back protection with air. Sometimes athletes in a hurry, they don't blow it really, uh, ready before the start. They say they do it in the air, but you never know. Uh, in the end, they, they can cheat quite easy, uh, their own safety. And if there is a, a rule which makes the gear more safe, and the rule it for everybody, that means every athlete, it's more safe and, and there is no one with disadvantage. But if everybody needs the high performance product, everybody has a disadvantage in safety and no one have an advantage in performance.
And this is because they're all finding the same thing. This is a stupid way, uh, yeah.
I mean, this is—this was a big problem with hang gliding as well. Looking at the right, it was—it was, I'm not a hang glider, but I understand this was the same thing. And they kept making these incremental changes in performance, which were a lot more expensive. You kind of had to have that piece of equipment to compete; otherwise, you couldn't compete. And it just—it whittles it down, whittles it down until very, very few people can afford it and use the equipment. That's right, yeah, and
Finally, I think to have a gear which it's easy and makes fun, and if it's similar to the others, I think then we have a bigger community. I mean, to be honest, at the moment there are two manufacturers; they, they lead the competition in, in cross country competitions. And when I was fresh in competition, there was 20 manufacturer with her teams and developing stuff, and it gives a lot of motivation in the groups. And now there is, this is gone. There is also almost no, no developing in generally. And yeah, this I can see as a big different compared to before in hike and fly.
Yeah, it's, it's more, they are six, seven manufacturer, they do
specifics equipment, but they also go into a way which makes the gliders more complicated, more heavy, to get a bit more performance, and for sure it's a—it's the normal way, but without rules we go soon with high performance D gliders, which are a bit more heavy, and the harnesses are more heavy, more complicated, I think also more unsafe, and it means I, as an athlete, I have to train even more. I not say I go with the easy equipment because I will do, uh, competition, but I—I know I have to train more, even more harder, to to get a good feeling.
So, if I could summarize, you know, in general, athletes aren't training enough, especially at the at the higher levels. If you're going to fly a CCC wing or a comp glider, or even a D, uh, or now two-liners that are C's, you know, you need to have—you need to be spending some time over the water doing some SIV, um, you know, making sure your current, making sure you know your gear. Uh, there's some things we could do on the gear side of things, potentially marshals, uh, as a safety committee, so they're just—they don't have anything invested in the competition, but they're up flying with everybody, so you've got more skilled eyes in the air that can be helping the meat meat director on the ground. Uh, go easy on the organizers, uh, but if there's something that can be done in the rules that help safety, you know, we should definitely take a look at them.
I'm missing anything? Yeah.
Maybe two things, uh, one point: it's for people they listen to understand the two-line glider problem. There is, um, more stability, more safety in flight as long they fly, but as soon they collapse, it means it needs more turbulences, it needs more disbalance, and then it collapse even more aggressive. And if you have a good reaction, you can handle it quite well, but it need, it needs experience, and it's not really similar to the SVI trainings over the lake to get big collapses in full speed in the air, and then if you miss the reaction, if you are too slow in the reaction on the break, you get big
problems normally, because the two-liner can get bigger cravats with the higher pressure. They, they get more dynamic and, and so normally the collapses are a bit more difficult to handle than on a three-line glider. And as higher the aspect ratio, as more power and, and stronger feeling you get it means to fly in a strong thermal, I not speak about two, three meter, I speak about eight to ten meter, then you get it's a too extreme feeling, what means it's not fun anymore. And to handle a 10-meter terminal, it needs a lot of praxis. Sometimes I feel like... beginner, but I think I can handle it quite well. But I do my 150 hours on a two-liner in a year, 300 hours on the normal year I did in the last 20 years.
So, um, it's a... it's a bit of experience and the other side. Um, the second point, I think it's, uh, it's also important to, to watch forward to not stop clearly the development. It needs new products, so we, we have to to focus on new products, but to find solutions together. That means what I really hope for the future that there is a more, a bigger conversation between top pilots, competition pilots, athletes, and manufacturer. I know there is conversations, but sometimes not enough, and I also like to have a better conversation
between compilates and organizers to get a better feeling from each other, what we can improve, what What are the the problems, and together we can become more strong? At the moment, I was in some pilot committees; I was also in development, but sometimes I get the feeling the other part of the of the conversation, it's um, quite sure what they do, and they not really get the the message we send. And that's why, um, I, I hope that we can get better in the future. Good.
Stuff, Chrigel, appreciate it. Thank you for sharing all this; it's, uh, timely. This debate is raging pretty hard right now on social media, which is, in some ways, kind of disheartening to see, but hopefully it will lead to good things. But thanks for sharing your thoughts; I appreciate it. Yeah.
Thanks to talk with you, Gavin. All the best as an athlete and an organizer, and see you soon. See you soon, though, if
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