Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloud-Based Mayhem. This episode is with Seaburn Warren. He represented the Netherlands in this year's Red Bull X-Alps as a rookie, and his entire team were all rookies. None of them had any experience coming into this. But we think of Seaburn as a Yankees. He learned how to fly over here in the States and got all his roots here. And then last year in my race that I run, the hike and fly race that I run, the Global Rescue X-Red Rocks, he did really well last year. He got second right behind Jared Scheid, who also competed in this year's Red Bull X-Alps for the first time. And over the course of the race, Seaburn kind of came the darling of the whole thing. Had just an amazing attitude, really had a tough prologue, came in hours and hours after everybody else in dead last, and got real slow there at the end, and got a standing ovation at the banquet and dinner that night by everybody else, which kind of boosted his spirit.
But we talk about how hard that was going into the main race, just really questioning everything, who you are and the skills you have. And that's a rough way to start. And then he started tough. He really did not get into his groove and didn't get into flow and was kind of off the back. And then he started tough. In danger of getting eliminated, and we talk about all that, just the wear and tear on the team and his mind. And he's very open about being quite ADD and how that may or may not have impacted things. And then made some nice moves at the end and, against all odds, made it in to Zelimsey. On the last day, he flew an outrageous line in unbelievable overdevelopment.
And walked through Kitzbühel in a just crazy storm. It was one of those hundred-year downpours where there's 10 inches of water on the road. And a lot of that was filmed. And he just was always smiling and gung-ho and happy. And he talks about his relationship with his gal and really how she played such an integral role during the race to kind of snap him out of it. And get him in a better frame of mind. And we talk about navigating risk. Navigating the ex-Alps hangover and all kinds of things. And then, of course, just days after the end of the race where he got in healthy and in one piece. Smashed up his foot real bad, top landing at Tre Cime, just having fun.
And so he's on the road to a very long recovery when you smash that heel bone. And so we talk about that and what that looks like. But his dedication was pretty impressive. He won. He worked with Ben Abruzzo, who trained me in all four of my ex-Alps. He moved over to the Alps last year to just be able to focus on this race and get time in the Alps. And, yeah, I really enjoyed speaking to Sebrin. I didn't know him intimately before this race, but I've got to know him over the years a little bit. And it's been awesome to see him progress and just chase down his dreams. And we had a lot of fun with this. He's pretty good at articulating what the race is all about and what it's like coming in as a rookie.
Brought back a lot of memories for me. We'll get to the show here in a bit, but I just want to say quickly that few people are having trouble accessing the bonus content we've been putting out a bit lately. There's kind of a glitch in the matrix on our side of the system when it comes to that. If you buy any swag or donate to the show. Either. One time or through Patreon or one of the other ways, it's supposed to kind of automatically set you up with a subscription and the subscription end of things. I worked through a company called Member Press on that. Had a glitch. And so I'm having to manually fix all of those. And it's too hard to do it through the system. There's a lot there. So if you're having any trouble, let me know.
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Sebrin, awesome to have you on the show. I've been really excited to do this. We were going to do it earlier, but then you flopped on your face, looks like. I saw your Instagram post. And that was unfortunate. It sounds like you've got a pretty gnarly recovery going. So let's start there. What happened? And what's this recovery look like?
Yeah, I also wanted to start by just saying it's so crazy to be on this show. Obviously, when I first started flying, it was like the way I was learning how to do it was listening to this. And for better or for worse. But thanks for having me.
That's not
all good advice.
Yeah, yeah. And there's not going to be a ton of good advice on this one either. So everyone, if you're just learning, just turn off your iPhones now. Right, right. But
you'll get some great stories.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, yeah, I was a hero. I'd just gotten the most attention I've ever had in my whole life. You know, I think Red Bull Adventure had just posted this reel of me and it had gotten like 300,000 views. And I was like, man, I'm like fucking Sky God. And. My team hadn't all headed separate ways yet. So we were we were driving back towards Grenoble and decided to stop in Sexton and go have lunch at the hut where the Via Ferrata was. And David Chan lands up there. No problem. He lands like by the lakes, which is like a nice green field. And he's already hiked up and like is about to order and sees me coming in.
And I'm like, OK, he's like standing right next to the hut. I should land right next to him. It's like. Like, you know, why why why land at those lakes down there with like the nice green grass when I've been like doing the excalibur for the last two weeks, I can land anywhere and I don't even consider the possibility that could go wrong. And I during the race, I was super good about like always giving myself a ton of margin and like, OK, top landings are always serious, especially in the day. Like that was just like very present in my mind during the race. And I think my ego is totally blocking any sense of self-preservation in that moment. And I just went in for this landing right next to David and the thermal broke off right in front. So all of a sudden I had like no airspeed and no flare authority and there was a rock in the middle of the trail that I was going to land on.
And like a beginner pilot, I focused right on that rock and landed right on that rock with my with my left heel and it like immediately felt like an explosion in my foot. But still, I tried like I rolled, landed OK and tried to convince myself that it was just a sprain. But I knew for sure it felt different than a sprain. I've sprained my ankle plenty of times throughout my life, even before flying. So, yeah, we had to get a helicopter off the mountain because my first time in a helicopter and hopefully my last for rescue situations. And then, yeah, the doctors in Bolzano told me that it was broken and that, you know, they didn't really give me any sort of info on what the recovery was like.
So I was still kind of under the impression. Like this would be like three to six weeks, like just to let the bone heal. And then so we just we decided we were going to take a couple of days to drive back to Grenoble. But I was in so much pain. Turns out breaking your heel is like one of the most painful things to break in your whole body. I just said, like, I don't want to deal with this anymore with the uncertainty. Like, let's just drive all the way to Grenoble tonight. So we got to Grenoble at like 3 a.m., woke up at nine after like one night back at my house and went to the hospital. And the surgeon, after looking at the x-rays, was like, yeah, this is. You know, your heel is in an uncountable number of pieces and you've got a long recovery ahead of you. So I immediately called my brother-in-law, who is a surgeon in Alabama, and he gave me the awesome news that most athletes don't come back from this injury and that I should kiss my XL streams goodbye.
So that was not like a great a great phone call for now. I've decided to just ignore him. And. I know for a fact that people have come back from this injury. I've talked to a few people like a lot of people reached out on Instagram after I posted the video. And a lot of them are like, yeah, you know, it was 15 years ago. I can't remember which heel it was. And other people are three years out and they're like, yeah, it still hurts if I do a long day. But, you know, it can do it. I can still do it. So my hope is that if I really focus on the recovery and pay attention and train in ways that are conducive. To that recovery that, you know, maybe I'm not the best on the ground in two years, but maybe in four years I am again or get there, you know, I
like how you're thinking. That's good. I mean, it's good to have goals to get through these things. I mean, we just saw, you know, Aaron Durogati win a Swiss win and he was, you know, told he wasn't going to walk, let alone compete. You know, I was there and in 2015.
2015 when he blew his knee apart. Yeah, no, it was coming down 2017 in the prologue that he destroyed his knee and had to bow out that year. And then, you know, look what he's done. And he came back the next race.
So, yeah. No, I think that surgeons are used to dealing with normal people and we're not normal.
You fly a paraglider, you're automatically not normal. It's not normal as you are. Uh, okay. Well then that begs the next question. This is, uh, I, I'd like to call it the Red Bull X-Alps hangover that we all go through after, after it's over. We talked to you and I talked about this a little bit right after the race and Zelle, I think then it was probably too fresh. You had just finished, but this is a multiplier imagine of that, you know, getting hurt right afterwards. I'm sure, you know, this is just your classic complacency accident, right? I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's ego over everything else and we all do that and, uh, and luckily it wasn't worse. I saw, I saw it, I, you know, you did a great PLF and everything.
It's just, like you said, in some, some parts, bad luck and some parts just beginner mistake. Uh, but how does that combine with the hangover? How are you, how have, how is the post race come down treating you? I
don't know how to like, even like separate. Like, you know, it's, it feels like really just like I went from being in like my peak shape with like, you know, you've worked with Ben far more than I have, you know, how much he's focused on getting your feet into shape for this race. So I felt like I'd built these like perfect feet. I didn't have a single foot issue, the whole race, not a blister, not any plantar fasciitis, which I've struggled with a ton in the past. No plant, no, no Achilles bursitis, which I've struggled with a bunch in the past. I'd like done all the. Training to get rid of all of those foot issues and built these two perfect feet. And then I just totally broke one of them. And I feel like that was, that's been a much bigger, like depression for me in the last month than, than not having the race as a goal anymore. I feel like it's like, I went from having this crazy goal of the XL to now having this like crazy goal of coming back from this, which I think has protected me from a bit of the post-race depression.
Um, but I've definitely had the, I cope with my ADHD and anxiety by going and running up a mountain. And now I can't do that.
So. Poor girlfriend.
Oh, and my poor girlfriend, she has been incredible. And yeah, she's, she also like has questioned how, like experiencing this, we've been talking about kids. She's like, I don't know how I'm going to work and have kids. Like if it's this hard to work and have a boyfriend with a broken foot. Yeah.
We always say, you know, uh, make sure you have a pet before. You have a kid and just to give you a little bit of the taste of, you know, you're, you're, uh, it's not, it's not always easy.
Yeah. When we first started dating, I broke my, my hand in a, in a very hilarious paragliding motorcycle accident. Um, and this is much worse because when I broke my hand, I could still walk around and do things. Like I could go to the kitchen and get a cup of water. When you have a broken foot, you can't carry things and move at the same time. Like if I need a glass. If
I need a glass
of water, I'm like, Hey, can you get me a glass of water? Like, and so like, we, like, if we're watching a movie together, she has to do everything. It's really terrible. Yeah.
I imagine that's not very easy on your own ego. It's like also
going from the ex-alps where for two weeks, everyone's doing everything for you to being injured. And everyone still is doing like, my team has come and visited a couple of times and they're still just like acting like my supporters. Like, it's just like, I'm like so ready to be a supporter. Now, and I can't. Oh
man. Yeah. No kidding. That'd be, that's, that's part of the come down. That's part of what is, was always so hard for me. And I know you experienced, uh, fully is just this incredible going to war, uh, kind of sensation or, you know, experience for, for two weeks with your team and the, the bonds and the laughter and the, you know, I know you guys had a special experience on that. You know, not just your own flying and all that kind of thing, but just the, this wild ride that you go through with these people is, is unrepeatable and unimaginable before you've done it. And then, and then it's just, boom, in your case, you get to the raft, you know, historically in the race, most people don't, it's just over wherever you are.
Uh, and then everybody leaves and no one's cooking your pancakes anymore. It kind of sucks.
Yeah, no, I, yeah, totally. It does suck to be over. Um, but I really, I wish, I wish they weren't cooking me pancakes anymore. I wish I was the one cooking the pancakes and now I'm finally getting like mobile enough that I can like hop around and, uh, now I can make dinner for my girlfriend again, which feels really good and really excited to make dinner for my teammates once they come and visit again. So, right.
Let's, uh, let's rewind the clock here a little bit because not everybody is, is totally familiar with your story. I'm not even sure I am, but I, I know a bit of it that, you know, it, to start with, you know, we all see you as a yank, you know, you learn to fly over here and, uh, you know, so I think there's a lot of confusion with, you know, the flag you were racing for, but also just the, you know, you haven't been at this very long. It was, you know, I think for many people from the outside go, wow, uh, he's, he's going to go compete in the Red Bull X-Alps. And so there's, there's a whole story in itself there. Yeah. Yeah. You decided that this was going to be your game, uh, and you made some major commitments to make it. So, you know, you moved over there. I was just actually talking to a mutual friend of ours, uh, Logan, who I do the races with over here and who competed in 23.
And, and from an X-Alps stance point, I kind of see Logan as a mentee of mine in a sense, you know, I helped him quite a bit and just in preparation and stuff for, for that race. And I was just talking to him. And I was just talking to him a few hours ago that, you know, Hey, are you going to do it again? And, and he, his first thing he said was, you know, I just don't know. I don't see how it's possible to really compete. In other words, you know, top 10, uh, without, I don't, even if I moved over there, I don't see how it would be possible because the, the top 10 are there. They live there. They work there. They, they, they know that place so much more intimately than we. Can, you know, the rest of the world who doesn't live in the Alps and, and it isn't a profession, uh, you know, you've got a profession, you're, you're a worker bee, you, you have a job that's not paragliding, uh, but you definitely made some big moves.
Let's, let's just talk about that. Well, what, what was it that made you decide, Hey, I'm going to change my life for this race?
I think I was incredibly naive. First of all, uh, like always for the best. Right. It's, it's always better to be a bit naive, I think for most, most things in life. Um, but yeah, I, I dunno, I, I, uh, I've experienced success in my regular career. So I was kind of like a little Prince there. I, I, you know, graduated college and gotten with a design degree and gone straight to Apple. So I was like, wow, it doesn't like, it doesn't take that much to get to the top. And, uh, you know, it definitely, I worked hard for those four years in college and like, it was super cool popping out there. And so. So, you know, and then I, and then I was, you know, it was, it was easy after Apple to kind of just make enough money contracting and design that I started having more and more free time.
So putting more and more of that into something else, originally it was climbing and then I discovered paragliding. Um, so I was putting more and more time into paragliding and less and less time into making money. And then eventually just, uh, decided if I really wanted to take doing something like the XL seriously, I had to treat it the same way I did design when I was 18 and, and put myself in it fully. Um, so. So you're saying you've been training for the X-Pyr. Yeah, I've been, uh, I've been training for the X-Pyr for the last two years ago, training for the X-Pyr. I was a horrible slacker at work. And just after the X fear actually got let go, they didn't say it was because of. Of my performance, but I honestly felt that it was, um, but I was, I was basically doing two full-time jobs for the year before the X-Pyr training for the X-Pyr.
And, uh, when they let me go out and like, okay, well I want to do the Excel. So I just won't take another job and I'll just. Yeah. treat this like a job. And, uh, I think that was pretty much essential to do as well as I hoped to do with the X-Alps. Uh, it didn't necessarily go that way, but I definitely feel like there's a lot of, there's a few learnings that I have that I could apply to the next one. Um, yeah, I think I discovered that I loved paragliding enough to pursue it that completely. Um, and I found that love, I think at a young age, I knew that I wanted to fly, uh, just like it. I think like a lot of us, it just is like this, like it is the pinnacle of experience.
Uh, it seems like getting to do magic in real life to be able to fly, whether it's an airplane or some other aircraft. I didn't know what paragliding was until I was probably 19 or 20, probably actually 21. Um, and when I finally I'm 32, so not the youngest for, uh, taking my first. I hadn't even started
paragliding at 32. You got plenty.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, you're, you're definitely an inspiration in that sense. I realized that like, and you see a lot of guys like competing at a high level in this sport, quite, quite old, even in hike and fly. And that was also a consideration that like, I'm still within the age bracket that I could be competitive in hike and fly. Um, just like looking at it all, like, obviously I didn't start flying when I was 14, like some of the guys or 10, like some of the guys winning this race. But, but if you looked at the guys below the top 10, it was like, Oh, a lot of them have actually only been flying for, for five or six years when they first started doing this race. Um, and I, I wasn't the most rookie of the people there. I think, uh, Gabby has been flying for like four years now and he was in the top three for the first four days of the race. So, um, yeah, I, I think, uh, I learned from the, the Eastern Sierra hike and fly race that Logan put on as one of his first, uh, USA hike and fly competitions.
Back in 2022, I think that you can do really well in hike and fly just by forecasting well and trusting a strategy. And in that race, you know, I think there were, there was Logan and Jesse Williams and Jeffrey Longcore all and, uh, Kevin Carter, all much more experienced, both on the ground and in the air than me. And I stuck to a plan and came in first in that race. And I realized like, Oh, okay. There's, there's a lot you can do in hike and fly that pulls from, from your mental experience, not just from your physical experience. So if I can build up the physical experience and the flying skill, then I could be competitive in this sport. And I don't know if it means I can be in the top 10 at the X-Alps. That's definitely a goal. I think I would actually love to podium one day.
Um, it seems crazy, but I think, uh, if I stay in the Alps and keep training here, I can gain a lot of the skills that those top guys learned from having been here their whole lives. As long as I can do that without getting horribly injured.
So you weren't discouraged in any way from this race. This was just a little bit of the, uh, I was going to say something inappropriate there. What would be appropriate to say? Yeah. This is just sky crack. This was, this was candy that you want to keep chasing.
I was more than it was more, I mean, it was, it was more nutritional than candy, I think. And,
uh, I, yeah, I think if anything, it's, it's done a lot to motivate me even more. Um, it's, it's made me question a lot of things as well. Uh, I think something that, that happened while pursuing this fully was I started to think about how I'm going to make money from paragliding. If I, if I decide not to go back to my design job, um, and this is, this was actually, I'll, if I make a documentary for this, it'll be a big part of the conversation of like how this like idea that you're good enough to make money from this, that you could get sponsorship, like how that impacts your thinking. And I'm very curious to see, to learn how other, uh, athletes, athletes have dealt with this in the past. Cause I, I guarantee that as a rookie athlete, I'm not the first person to, to let it go to my head. And, and it ultimately put me in a pretty crappy place in terms of the sport.
Um, but we'll, we can go to that more. I think that the question you're talking
about making sure that once you, you know, if you pursue, pursue the media sponsorship side of things, that then that changes in a sense, like if you become a tandem pilot, it does, it does this in a sense, it becomes your job. It, it changes how it changes your perception of what you love. Is that what you're talking about?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and sponsorship even more so than tandems because like your performance matters to someone other than you, uh, which is really weird. Yeah. Um, I
mean, why not? I know that that's the general path, right? It was really interesting for me to sit down with Patrick von Cannell right after the race that you were there. Uh, we were having breakfast that one morning and, you know, he was mentioning that he does tandems and interlocking. And I said, you're a Red Bull athlete and you're still doing tandems. Why? And he said, well, yeah, you know, my wife and I rehab, you know, we redid this house and, you know, it's not enough. I don't think there's that many pilots in the world, less than five as a guess, but that are actually making a living from sponsorship. You know, most of the, you know, Simone and Tommy and Patrick and, you know, Chrigel might be. The only one, I don't know, uh, who's, but he gives a lot of talks.
I mean, I don't think it's just the, the logos that you see on his bag. I mean, given how well you do in design, why not do design and then just be totally free? Yeah.
I don't know. So that was a really important realization from this race is that, okay. Like if, if some sort of athletic sponsorships fall on my lap, great. Uh, but I cannot mentally handle the pressure around, you know, the of at all relying on those as like a, a desirable future. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm rebuilding my design resume and, and looking for, for contracts again. It's an
interesting thing. I mean, I think that there's just so many, I went through the exact same thing. You know what I mean? I grew up ski racing. I grew up in this world of sponsorship and it's always been, I love playing that game, but the game that we are playing is not F1. It's not soccer. It's not football. It's just, there's no jackpot hard. You know, you can get a wing, you can get some shoes, you know, you can get stuff, but the amount of work that you go through to do that versus being a designer at Apple and just buying the stuff. I don't know. You know what I mean? It's a, no, you're totally right. Interesting.
And, uh, this is, this is solidified that realization even, even deeper. And, and it's no matter how good the athlete is, if you talk to them about this and you say that you can make 150 an hour doing design work, they're like, don't stop doing it.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you're, that's just, there's, you're in a really rare echelon to get up in those kinds of numbers, uh, and not in paragliding.
It's a pretty, pretty hard go. Anyway, I'm not an expert. It's just, it's, I think about this a lot. Cause I have a lot of people ask, Hey, how did you do it? And one, you know, I always think, yeah, just keep your job, man. That's the easiest way to do it. But, uh, okay. Next thing I really want to ask, I mean, that's just something that it's, interesting to think about, but the next thing I want to ask you about is, you know, you, you were a real media darling in this race. Uh, you know, the wider world just fell in love with you because, you know, you were honest, you were deliberate in your honesty. You, uh, shared just what was going on in, in your head, uh, which is not all, you know, apples and raspberry pie when you're having this race. And, uh, and you know, and you came in well-trained, physically, you know, Ben, who I've worked with in all my campaigns, you know, so you knew you had that in the bag, you knew you were going to be fit.
Uh, everything was lining up, you know, you had maybe in the, in your mind, Hey, I can, I can compete with these, with these folks and I can do pretty well. And then you had the prologue and, uh, you know, walked in as everyone had sat down for dinner.
And, uh, you and I talked about this in the interview we did after the race, but take it from there. I mean, what was, what was happening in your mind? Uh, when you go out to race with everybody day one and the prologue, it's just a fun thing. It's just a media event, but everybody takes it more seriously than they plan on doing it because adrenaline and ego. Uh, and I mean, you, you had a day that day. Yeah.
And I also wasn't really thinking about it when I started the day, but if you do really, really terribly in the prologue, it does impact the rest of your race significantly, like starting five and a half hours after the race. The leaders on the second day, it's like, it's not insignificant. Uh, so yeah, starting off that day, I was actually like, I knew I wasn't in the best head space. I was like, I hadn't really enjoyed flying. Like, like I had a year prior in the X peer in the last like three or four months. I like, I was doing it every day and like making it like feel as natural as walking, but I think making it the only, only thing in my life and feeling like a little bit of financial insecurity around it, like really screwed with my head.
And I, I, I saw it happening like a couple of months before the race and like tried to back off. I tried to like, just, I thought I was just flying too much. So I, I flew, I was flying. I started flying a little bit less before the race, just focused on like doing the really challenging days and making sure that I was learning how to fly in crazy wind. And that actually made it worse. Cause I was then like feeling like scared every time I wanted to go fly. Cause I was like, well, every time I fly, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm flying in like 30 K wind and it kind of sucks. And, um, so yeah, I wasn't in the best mental space with this, with just like knowing my, my joy for the sport. Um, but I knew that I had, like, I can remember feeling that way. So I was trying to find that. And then I woke up the morning of the prologue with a cold. So it was just another thing that was just like, it wasn't a bad cold, but it was just like, well, shit, like I'm, I'm not feeling super stoked.
I'm not feeling super physically fit. And now I have to go do this prologue. And I like, I managed to get back into a good headspace for the first sprint and like got up there maybe like a couple of minutes after Lars and some of the other super strong guys and, uh, took off into the first thermal. I took like a few good turns with Patrick and we were kind of on top of the, the gaggle. And I started flying a little more aggressively thinking I could keep on out climbing them. And then I took one turn and got like maybe 10 meters below the gaggle and that was like enough for my fragile, my fragile mental state to just completely collapse. And all of a sudden it was impossible to get back up and join them. I was like, oh, there's so much better. I'm just like not good enough to be here. I don't know what's going on. Like, I just have no idea how to fly. And like 10 minutes later, I was on the ground and I landed right next to freaking
Nicola Heinegger. Who's like, I know he's an incredible pilot. He also bombed out. I should have seen that and like, oh, it's just a challenging day. Like if you take one wrong turn, you end up on the ground. It's, it's one of those days. It's just luck. And instead I was still just making it all about me being a bad pilot. Um, and it's just like, I'm not like that. Like that is not who I am, but I just like in the last three months, like let this something creep in. Um, and I, I spent the whole day just in that mindset. So I, I took off next to Nicola. He climbed out. I flew down to the Valley and hiked a thousand meters to the next turn point and ended up doing that like three times that day. Uh, and, uh, yeah, finished five and a half hours after, but even like, even on my last glide, even on my glide towards the last turn point, like when the day was still working, there were still people behind me.
Like I w and I still felt like, even though there were people behind me, I was in my head. I was in last place. I was like, I am the worst pilot in this group. Like I'm going to be in last place, even though there were people behind me and like Andre flew past me, top landed just in front of me, hiked up to the turn point and flew down. To goal. And I like, instead of landing next to him, kept on gliding right past him, flew down the side of the mountain and hiked up from the bottom, totally off course line. It was like, it just didn't make any sense. Like I I'm smarter than that. I'm a better pilot than that. I'm more like nothing. It was such a mental battle that whole day. And I felt like such total shit. And then I walked into the freaking ceremony and everyone's so freaking stoked.
Like, if I hadn't done that, I would have started the race off much, much worse. That, that really, the, the amount of the community just kind of came in to, to believe in me and support me in that moment was it, it was really moving.
Interesting. I mean, you said that, you know, for three months you're in this kind of weird space, but that wasn't you, that had to have been a mental, I mean, I, I get it that everybody, you know, cheered you on and maybe brought you out of it, but what were, what was Friday, Saturday like for you before? You know, so the prologues Thursday, I would imagine that would have been tough.
Yeah. I woke up Friday, still feeling pretty shitty. It was like, it's still, I was like trying to ride that momentum from like all the support from the community, but it's still like, it couldn't, it couldn't all come from outside. There was something deeper happening inside of me that, that I couldn't shake. And I spent Friday, just the whole day in bed, trying to make sure that that cold didn't get worse and woke up on Saturday and was still not feeling good. I was feeling great. And my team was like, dude, you need to just go fly and remind yourself that you know, how like with no pressure. So I like took the lift up and had like a nice three hour flight and felt like I was getting out of it. Like I really enjoyed that flight. I landed super stoked and was like, cool guys, we're ready for tomorrow. Like we're going to like, we're going to put the prologue behind us and tomorrow is going to be awesome.
And, uh, we started the first hike on the very first day of the race. I still had that cold and it was definitely having an impact on me, but I still, something like I had not shaken it. I, I, I did that hike and fly felt like I was pushing in zone five and my heart rate was below one 45, which for me is normally like a mid zone too. So something was off and it wasn't just that I was sick. And I think it was definitely more so that I was still in this weird head space. Um, and I got the top realized I was still in a bad place, just like was flying kind of on instinct, just like on autopilot and was able to kind of keep up with everyone until, a critical move came. And, uh, I missed a thermal, got stuck behind a ridge. I think you were actually pretty close to me.
We both kind of missed this thermal and had to fly super far off course line and go around, uh, just after crossing the main spine. Um, and then I found this epic climb just again, still pretty much flying on autopilot. Um, asking my team, like what other people were doing, like really just not, not flying on my own, like constantly being like, Hey, Hey guys, where's the next thermal? Like, would you guys like trying to, trying to be flight flown by remote control, even though I was fresh and like, should it be able to make good decisions still? Um, yeah, I was asking to be flown remote control and just be a race horse. And, uh, I followed Christian Shug's line from this climb and he'd done it from 200 meters below me, probably 30 minutes earlier, maybe, maybe just 10 minutes earlier.
And I came into the next, the next rage, like 50 meters below Ridge height, and he'd crossed it with like 100 meters, meters to spare. And then everything just fell apart. Like I ended up having to go back to that thermal. It didn't work. I landed in the Valley and then ran 30 kilometers in 2000 years and finished the day 40 kilometers behind the next person. So yeah, it was just, my ego was so fragile. Like one thing would go wrong and I would be just like completely doomsday.
Hmm. And you've got a special share the story about your girlfriend and a Skona. I mean, we're jumping way ahead and if we're jumping too far ahead, you know, slow me down. I think that one, that one's actually,
that's, that's on day 10. So we could jump to that, but there's plenty that, that happens in between.
Okay. That's too, that's too far, but that's, I mean, did you really not get your mojo back until then?
No, no. I think I was, I was super fragile and I was just getting worse all the way up until day three. And then I finally, like, I think pulling the night pass and running all night, like somehow took me out of it. I ran past, I ran from second to last place, just like 10 kilometers ahead of Hugo all the way to like sixth to last. And was, I finished at 8 AM, like, I think like 13 kilometers ahead of Hugo. Um, and that
guy, we should give him some, a clap right now. I mean, I, I did put this out on social, but Holy cow, he, people don't know this story as well as they should, but man, he threw down. He did. That was impressive. Yeah. I mean, it's impressive that he made you guys, I mean, it's impressive that, that Andre, Andre just went to sleep thinking there's no chance. And he almost got snagged.
Yeah, no, I think, I think Andre was like, just like five or six kilometers of him at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Impressive. Super impressive. Yeah. But
so you were saying, so that helped just going so
much. It helped so much. And then I had a nice win the day before. And I think it was like, I let go of something on the third day. Like I was like, there's no way I'm racing 12 days. There's no way I'm finishing this race. Like the idea of sponsorship and stuff like that. Like, I'm not good enough. Like, it doesn't matter. I'm just going to fly. And my team, I'm going to fly. I'm going to fly. I'm going to fly. I'm going to fly. I'm going to kind of said it. They were like, look, if we're out in 24 hours, let's keep going. Like, let's just, let's, we're having a good time. Like you should be having a good time too. Like, let's just enjoy a 12 day adventure. And, uh, and I, I had like a big breakdown on a mountain and called Katie and she like, just listened to me cry for 30 minutes, but that wasn't the moment where I, I really came out of it. But I think, uh, I left a lot on that mountain.
Um, and I, I left, I left a lot of expectation. Um, and it wasn't like a complete cure, but it was the beginning of the up, I think for me. Um,
so, so yeah, I, I, I finished that day running the whole night and feeling not even hopeful, just like at peace with my situation. And then, yeah, we finished the more we finished at 8 AM still on the race. And like that, that was like, that alone was a cherry on top. And everything from there was just a cherry on top. Like every additional, every additional, every additional day, we were still in the race. It was just like a cherry on top of what, of what was going to be a total nightmare. And, and, uh, I think, uh, once, once everything was just extra, it felt so much easier to, to be myself and to push hard.
Have you thought about this for 27 now we're really jumping ahead, but I think expectation can be, it was my downfall, honestly. I mean, 2015 going in like you did having, I had no, I had no clue where I stood. I really didn't know if I was going to, I had never done a hike and fly race. They didn't have a race every weekend all over the world. Well, it's just also a different time. You know, it wasn't there, there were, there was the Verco fly and the Iger was just, I think that was the first year of the Iger, you know, but they didn't have, I've never, I can't do the X period cause I don't have the knees for that first day, you know? So there's something that I just couldn't do, but yeah, anyway, it was my first race.
I had no idea if I was just going to be eliminated right off the bat. I just, had no idea where I stood. And thankfully I had the opposite prologue experience from, you had a great prologue and got third, but that just gave me this huge boost, but I still really didn't know the whole race. I mean, I went from first day flying 180 K being a fourth at the end of the day to being, you know, 18th, two days later, just blowing it over and over and over again. Um, but my point is, you know, at the end of that race, you know, I made Monaco, it all went great. I was an eighth and I thought, Oh, my God, man, if I really train hard and I really, uh, I'm going to, I could podium in this thing. And then having that, you know, having a goal like that I've learned is really stupid, but, um, but also just psychologically, but psychologically I could never get out of that.
You know, it was, it was actually better for, for me personally, my performance to be ignorant in a sense, and to have no expectation to, to give that up, um, and just have fun, you know? Like I watched Simone, I I'm sure he has goals, but he sure seems like he's having a lot of fun and he's never done worse than sixth. You know, he's, he's done pretty well at this race. I don't know. I know you're very, you're analytical. You think about stuff, you're a smart guy. How do you, how have you, have you thought about that for the next one? Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. I think expectation is such a double-edged sword because in your training, it can be actually super motivating to like, be like, I want to be the best I can be. And like, I think if you have, if you have a lot of expectations, you're going to be the best you can be. And if you have zero expectation, you can kind of just get a little too relaxed and not like I have ADD when I have some sort of deadline or goal, like it motivates me. It's the only way I can really push. Um, I don't know if you relate to that at all, but like having some expectation is great, but then once the race comes, I have to completely let go of it. And I think that's such a challenge, um, that I, I would like to work with somebody, I think in preparation for 2027 on that.
Hmm. Yeah. I, I got, some benefit working with some, I worked with Thomas Terrell, you know, Kregel's coach for, and, and supporter for, for quite a while. And it was, it was really interesting. I learned a lot about, yeah, goals, strengths, what to focus on, what not to focus on. That was, that was, you know, it was, it was very helpful, but I could never get out of my own way. I mean, even getting the help, the going into the last couple that I did, whereas I could never get out of my own way. Just again, having that expectation and having maybe the wrong, wrong goal. I don't know. You learned in this one that you do well when you're free, right? And you, when you're free to do your thing and you're just flying as you know, how to fly,
not how you should fly or what other people have done. I don't know. Uh, isn't that helpful?
Yeah. Yeah. And it would be, I would, I would be super like stoked if I could just come into 2027 with that mentality and just be like, yeah, I'm just going to fly my own race. And like, like I'm going to tell myself that it was going to be my mantra. And I think having it be your, your main goal and actually following it are two different things. So totally. It's so, that's the problem. I can say all this
stuff, but I could never live it, you
know? Yeah. But I think that was like, for the born to fly just a month before I had zero expectation, you know, I, I'd done pretty mediocre in it the previous two times I'd done it. Like first time I got 34th, second time I got 36 and I was like, okay, well, you know, how am I going to compete with the French guys that live here? And, uh, yeah, then this year I kind of went into it just like, this will be a nice way to train with the team. Like, I'm not, I'm going to be super focused on just making sure that the team gets to ask the questions that they want, figure out what works for them. And we won't worry about position in the, in the born to fly. And I came in ninth place and it was like, what the fuck? Okay, great. And, and that's, that's the right mentality is like, we're just going to do this to learn. And, you know, we're going to push as hard as we can, but we're not going to worry about where we are and that works super well.
So yeah. How, how to put yourself in that headspace that for me is the, is the only headspace where I can really go into flow is yeah. I need to figure out how to do that all the time.
Yeah. Yeah. Good luck with that. I, you know, that's, it's a tough one. Um, did day two help with the North fern and being ratty? Was that, did that help or hurt? Uh, you know, you're, you're mental space. We kind of missed it struggling with
like the, I took off at 10 30 AM that day, which is, I guess, kind of when the North phone was just starting and have like a beautiful ridge storing flight into Sexton. And then by the time I'd gotten up to take off again, after the, the via Ferrata, the North phone had kind of gone away. It'd been kind of smushed by the thunderstorms, I guess. Um, and I took off and under a thunderstorm and had like this like 10 K flight that, it was honestly not sketchy at all. I fumbled maybe 10 minutes in the rain, but it wasn't like a downpour. Um, so when I, when I saw the videos that evening of people taking off and like from Moreno 2000 in like, you know, 35 kilometer hour winds, I was pretty surprised. I, it didn't, it didn't hit me. So I never really had those conditions on day two.
Well, what's a memorable high and low from race. You know, when you're sitting around now with your girlfriend, what are the memories that really are embedded? Yeah,
there are so many, I can pick one just kind of, kind of random. Um, I,
I think one of the, the coolest flights in the race was actually probably only 15 or 20 kilometers. Um, it was just after we'd done like the 200 K day back from, uh, dues Alps all the way through the Allosta Valley. And the forecast for that day was terrible. I think the middle pack didn't, didn't fly at all that day. Um, so it was a big opportunity for us to gain some ground. Um, but we didn't think it was, it looked like thunderstorms everywhere. And when it wasn't thunderstorming, it was going to be like, you know, 50 kilometer an hour winds at the top of lift and, and gust fronts on the ground. Uh, so we were planning to do a 6,000 meter hiking day with 50 kilometers of distance on the ground and hoping for maybe one nice glide, uh, if the weather allowed.
And I remember hiking up with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, Jay Collins. Is that his name? Jay Collins. Yeah. Uh, up to the first hike and the, the wind hadn't really come in yet. So I was like, Hmm, okay, well we'll take off. And I take off and I've got my team like watching the wind meters on the ground to make sure that it's not getting sketchy. And that's huge by the way, to, to have a team giving you like two minute updates on the wind on the ground, it makes flying in fucked up Alps conditions like way, way, way safer. Um, but I took off. I found this crazy Lee side thermal up to 3000 meters. And I was like, wait a minute. I can like fly through the next pass that I was originally planning on hiking. Oh, so I'm like, I've already saved myself three hours today.
Like I go on glide. And then my, my, my team's like, Hey, we're getting like 40 kilometer an hour wind in the Valley. Uh, might be time for you to find like a place in the Lee and land. Uh, so like, get out of here, dude, go fast. It's like, I go down wind and like, just as I'm about to fly through the pass, I start to accelerate and I'm going towards this pass at like 60 kilometers an hour with no bar. And I blast through it. And on the other side of it is the, uh, Atria, uh, Atria, Atria airspace. I forgot what it's called. It's like this, like the 600 meter AGL airspace. So I go through this towards
the lakes.
Yeah. I go through this pass and I'm like immediately getting an airspace warning that like, I need to stay below 600 meters AGL. So I'm like, well, I guess like, I'll just fly. Into the Lee here. And hopefully that's like a nice, safe place. Um, and it was not, it was not a nice, safe place, but I managed to fly through it and it's just getting totally rocked. Like there's moments where the wing was just falling, you know, three meters over my head, but staying completely open, just all the lines are slack. And then I'd come back under it and keep flying. And, uh, and I managed to do that and, and then like turn and burn to the next range and land, like with like a 600 meter hike up to the next pass. And then, uh, landed like with this beautiful fly on the wall landing, like totally perfect, no wind.
I'm like, okay, cool. Well, I guess we'll do that again. So I hike up to the next one and I, I do the same thing. And I did that. It was just like this, I felt totally in the zone at this point. So like, it all was just working. Like I knew the conditions were bad, but I knew exactly what to expect. And I felt like I knew how bad they were and that it was totally within my ability. So I just, I did that for two more flights and then had this beautiful evening, glide into, uh, I forgot the name of the city just before us going to La Carno, uh, like at the other end of the Valley. Um, Domodossola, Domodossola. Yeah. Yeah. So I landed in Domodossola at the end of that day, we made like 90 kilometers on course line on a day. We expected to make 50 and on a day where I think Andre the day before had flown 300 for the 200 we did, which was just mind blowing.
That guy is, he, he was on fire, uh, the second half of the race.
But yeah, I think he, he, he, we started that day like 60 kilometers behind him and finished it like 15 kilometers behind him, which was pretty awesome. That's awesome. Yeah.
I mean, one of your highlights has got to be the flight from Laramoose, you know, your last four days. I
mean, of course that's like the no brainer. Incredible
to watch by the way. I mean, it was just what, because that weather was, you know, it was getting nuclear by 11, uh, at least in Zelle and, you know, I'm just watching the radar going, he doesn't have any window to come this way. There's, I mean, it just had to been unbelievable what you were looking at.
That day was a gift from God. I can't describe it any other way. You know, like we just got it. We were just given this window of sunlight that appeared above us at 10 AM, just as the day was turning on and just stayed above us. It was just this perfect little window of perfect instability. If you were too far in front of it, it was totally stable. And if you were too far behind it, you were in the rain and it was moving just as fast as we were flying. We thought we would fly if we were lucky two hours that day. And then we were planning on like, just even though we didn't have it and it was totally against the rules, we were just going to hike through the night and just go to goal. And if they didn't count it as a finish, then we didn't get, we, you know, at least we, we got to, to fly the whole route. Um, so we weren't really thinking about winning or finishing the race at that point.
It was just like, we're just going to go. And yeah, I, I ended up flying instead of for two hours, I flew for like five and a half. It
was just unbelievable. And then there's this clip of Kitzbühel, literally there's 10 inches of water running down the road in, in Kitzbühel. I mean, Kitzbühel had flash flooding warnings and all this stuff. I mean, it was popping up on every everywhere. And then there's you just running through it with this huge smile on your face. I mean, that was, that was when the whole community went, this guy is awesome. He's having so much fun. He's, he's just running down a river. Dude,
that was a hundred year storm, apparently in Kitzbühel. It was crazy.
Yeah. I was on, on cloud nine, you know, that didn't, what a way to end. Yeah. We got so lucky with that. Yeah.
Super cool. Very, I, that was, that had to have been a highlight that whole day,
absolutely the highlight, but, and like the, the, the thermal that we got just after crossing, crossing the Seyfried plateau, like it, it didn't seem like it should work. It was, it still looked totally stable over Innsbruck. And it was like this climb out of the shade over a forest. And it's like, at that moment I knew somebody like God was on my side and I was going to finish this race. I was like, this is amazing. I don't know what's happening. Yeah. Like shut a single tear and was like, all right, we got this guys. Let's go. I
don't remember. I don't remember the timing of this, but I was actually live broadcasting. I think it was the night before. So you and Andra were still on your way to Laramouse, I believe. And timing might be off here, but I, Tarquin said, you know, what do you think about, you know, the last, you know, can, can, uh, Seyfried or, or Andra make it in? And I said, just flat out, there is no chance. Neither one of these guys has a chance in hell of making it in because of the forecast, the forecast. The next day was, it looked horrible. I thought the same thing you did. I thought maybe he's going to get two hours and we, we just, it was a basic calculation. It was just no way there's, there's no, there's no chance of this. You'd already done your, you'd already burned your night pass.
I could make it to goal, but yeah, flying our average speed to this race, just based on how I was flying with like around like 21 kilometers an hour. So the idea that we could fly even 60 in those two hours was extremely unlikely. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Well, tell the story about, about your girlfriend. Was that Murano? Was that just the glide? That was really special.
That was, so like I said, it was the day, day, morning of day four was like the beginning of the up, but I was still a little fragile. Like I'd make one wrong move. I was flying super slow, just really conservative. Cause I wasn't really feeling the flow. Um, and I'd go into it periodically. Like I said, on day nine, I was getting to it like on each of those flights. And then, yeah, on the, the morning, the morning of the 10th day, we hiked up, I had this like slow, but effective flight towards the car. No, but we got there a little later than we wanted. And I landed and kind of, I put a few holes in my wing. So we spent a bunch of time dealing with that. And, and this was a day where like, we really felt like if we wanted to finish the race, which again, was not no pressure anymore, but we should probably try to do like 150 K if we want to finish the race. Like, so it was, I think already two o 'clock or three o 'clock when I got to the top of the car now, which was, we were already like two or three hours behind what we wanted.
And I, so I'm like, not feeling amazing. I'm not horribly bummed out, but I'm like, okay, we're going to have this like quick glide to Bell and Zona. And then we'll see where we're at. We'll, we'll get it in the air as fast as possible and make the most of this day. And on the way to Bell and Zona, I'm getting like a six to one glide, which is not even enough to clear like this, like air airspace pinch point. And if you land before that, you have like a, an eight kilometer one
that the one that everybody hit. I mean, a lot of people hit that pitch pinch point that, that was, you know, that was a harsh airspace for a bunch of folks.
Yeah. So, I, for some reason, wasn't even concerned about it when I started that flight. And then all of a sudden, and I had like two big holes in the front leading edge of my wing. So I should have, should have been aware that like, Hey, you need to like take any lift you can find. But yeah, I get, I get to the point where I'm below the pinch point and I'm like, fuck, like I'm going to lose another hour of this, like relatively good day. And that's probably, you know, 20 to 30 kilometers that I'm losing, which really it's going to be damaging. And so I'm turning on this ridge lift, not going down and just kind of cursing every time, like I do a turn and it ends up being more sink than lift. And I'm calling the team like, Hey guys, like, you know, what's the best hiking option. If I land below here, like where should I land? And I, so, and, and every now and then Katie's on the WhatsApp so she can jump on these calls and she, she decides at this point that she's going to listen in and she didn't, she didn't, doesn't say anything.
She doesn't want me to like worry about how she's feeling about me flying, whatever conditions I'm flying in.
But she, she decides that it would be prudent to jump in here and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and she hears me and she's like, Hey, C-Run, I don't, I don't mean to jump in or anything, but maybe you could try to have a little bit of fun. And like, I just immediately started, I burst out into, into laughing, just deep belly laughs. It felt, it was exactly what I needed to hear in that moment. Cause yeah, I wasn't having fun and I totally could be, cause like, it was awesome. Like the views were awesome. Everything was awesome. There was no pressure. And I just immediately switched into fun mode. And like two seconds later started turning, turning in this two meter per second thermal and got over the pinch point and flew into Bellinzona. And from that point I was like, Oh yeah. When I'm like enjoying it, I fly so much better. Like, it's like when, when you don't think you're going to find a thermal, you fly straight through like five thermals all the way to the ground.
And when you, when you aren't worried about finding a thermal, you're like, you can't get down, you know? So yeah, from the rest of the race, that's how I was flying. And I think that was crucial for the last day because like, like, like you said, it was such a, there was no reason anyone would think that that day was flyable. And I was flying it just totally in the zone with no expectations and all that. Yeah. Of course I'll find a thermal and just hate over there.
What a cool game changer. I've often tried to find mantras or little things like that, that you can latch onto when you need them. Is that something you can kind of stow away? I've stowed that one away.
I'm going to pull it out anytime I'm flying. Like shit is like, can you try to have a little hip
pocket flask there? You know? Yeah.
Yep. Can you try to have a little bit of fun?
That's great. I love it. Uh, and that, and it sounds like that really, that kind of changed. That was in a sense, a light switch went off there, right? That's the way you described it after the race that it just, Oh, Oh yeah. It's supposed to be fun. Yep.
Yeah. And then like, I still totally fucked up the rest of that day, like strategy wise, but it felt good. I was like, this was an awesome day. I think we flew 80 K that day, not the 150 we were hoping for and less than we had the day before on a worse forecast. So it was like, but it felt like a victory that day felt like a victory in every other way.
Tell me about your and Katie's relationship to, to what you do risk-wise. This is a fascinating subject. You know, uh, she knows what you do is dangerous. What, how, how do you guys treat that? How do you talk about it? How does, she, how does she deal with it? Especially you guys talked about right in the beginning, you're talking about having kids.
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's still, it's always a conversation. It's really complicated. And I think a lot of, a lot of us deal with this in this sport, especially even if your partner flies and Katie does fly. Um, yeah, I mean, she knows, I love it. She thinks it's awesome. She thinks flying is awesome. She obviously doesn't love it as much as I do, but she sees how it makes me feel. And like that, that keeps her, uh, I guess accepting enough of it, but it's, uh, it's something that we, we work through always. And I think as I start to talk more and more about having kids, like I have to really reassure her that my tolerance for risk and my margins are going to get bigger and bigger.
Um, I think, uh, I'm really glad that I've, I started doing hike and fly paragliding before having kids because I've learned a shit ton about what's safe and what's dangerous. And in the next couple of years, I would love to continue to learn so that when I have a kid, I can set more realistic margins. And I think the way I talk about that with Katie is very important.
Yeah. You're not uncommon in this sport when it comes to the ADD side of things. I don't have any statistics. I don't know if you do, if that's, you know, if pilots are more, you know, what's the sample size, what's the, what's the statistic in terms of, you know, or, you know, for example, I know depression is a major factor in our sport. Um, but again, I don't know if that's, is it, is it more of a factor with pilots than it is with the normal population? And I, so I don't know ADD either, but we do, we both know a lot of people in the sport who have ADD, as you mentioned, you do. Well,
I think it's dangerous and it helps. Uh, I think people with ADD, not all of them. ADD is a very like blanket spectrum. It's a, it's a, and it's, it's not just a spec. It's like a three dimensional, four dimensional spectrum. Like you can like Katie has ADD, but she's totally different than I am. And she has like all the different symptoms from me. Um, but I think for, for some of us, the only time we can really go into, is when we're really highly stimulated. So like for, for my partner, like when she's highly stimulated, she often shuts down or gets overwhelmed. And when I'm highly stimulated, I generally go into like a hyper flow focus state and that's like great. And I think that's super helpful for flying intense conditions.
Um, and in like competition environments, but you can also learn to seek that out, which the conditions where you need to be fully focused, when you have become a super good pilot are often also the more dangerous conditions. Um, I think XC competition is like great because you can find other reasons to stay highly stimulated and fully focused, but, uh, hike and fly, it's often less, less densely packed. And, and like the, the places you find that high stimulation are often more based on conditions and less based on like, what's the gaggle of a hundred pilots around me doing.
Yeah. Interesting. Does it help training? Does it help? Does it help competence? I don't have ADD, so I don't know. These are, these are, I don't know. I think for me growing up with
ADD, I've always felt like I was not as motivated as other people. Uh, that's always been a concern of mine that I, I always feel like because I'm distracted, easily distracted, like I could be using my time more efficiently. And, and if I could just focus better, then I would be a million times more productive. So I always feel like I'm falling short in productivity and even like going and doing an interval interval run. Like I find myself like, oh, I do like the first like three intervals. And then I like end up walking for 20 minutes by accident. I'm like, oh shit, I should do the other three intervals. I'm like, I get distracted doing anything. And I never feel like I'm as like focused or motivated as somebody who's, who's like on it all the time or doesn't struggle with attention.
Um, but obviously it, it doesn't actually pan out that way. I think like I can look at my achievements and see that like, oh, like I clearly have done good things. Like I must be somewhat motivated, but I always feel like my, my internal feeling is that I'm not motivated.
How do you anticipate something like the, you know, pursuing the X-Alps and hike and fly and racing changing if you have kids?
Yeah. I mean, I don't want to stop doing it. It like brings me so much joy. Um, I think that there's plenty of examples of awesome pilots that, that keep doing it and seem to be relatively safe. Obviously it's not like you'd be safer, not flying, um, any sort of flying. Uh, but I think like for me, yeah, building up the margins, being super honest with myself about the risks I'm taking and communicating with Katie about that. That's the best I can do, but I have to keep doing it. I have to keep doing it. I have to keep doing it. Like I can't just put, I can fly racing behind me just because I have kids. Um, but I will make sacrifices. I think there'll, there are definitely going to have to be sacrifices.
I don't know what those are yet.
I don't know. Have you, have you had to do that at all?
You know, it's, it's really interesting and I don't know exactly how to chalk up how I feel about it, but you know, Fallon was with me for the second one. So she was, Maddie was really pregnant for the 2017. You know, in fact, we had this whole protocol that if she went into labor, would my team tell me, you know, we had this whole thing we'd had, we had the discussion and she was, you know, she was on time and everything was fine. So it was about a month after the race. Uh, and then they came over for the 2019 race. You know, she was on my shoulders as I ran out of things. I'd seen Hansa do that with his, with his oldest, oldest kid back in one of his races. And so I thought that'd be really fun. Uh, so anyway, for 2019, 2021, she was two and she was four. And it didn't, I can pretty honestly say it didn't impact me.
And it, and it wasn't just the ex Alps. There was all this other flying I was doing and competing and traveling and stuff. And I think like you, uh, it was very critical that when I met Maddie, this is my life. This is what we, this is what I did. It wasn't that I came to paragliding and we had this relationship. So she very much has been very supportive and understood what she was getting involved with. And that I think has been really helpful, but. Now it has changed that she, you know, she just turned eight yesterday. And. But I can't say actually Sebring if, if it's just because I'm also 53 now, is this just age playing at that card or is it that she's, you know, I don't know why it didn't impact me when she was two differently than she's eight, but she's a really cool kid now when they're two, they're just two.
So now I'm having a lot of fun with her and I'm skiing with her. I mean, for some reason, the relationship's different for, I think for a dad than it is for a mom. Anyway, I don't know for sure, but for some reason it's impacting me more now. I, I think it's not, I mean, I still go out and fly and I love it. And, uh, you know, watching you guys all compete in the X ops this time, I just kept thinking, God, I'd love to do this again. I mean, I still just love, I love taking the risk. I love seeing what I'm capable of even now, but I do think about more, way more about margin. And I have these thoughts in my head that I'd rather just throw away sometimes about splatting and what would happen at, you know, I, it, it is something I'm thinking about more, I guess, is my very long answer to that question.
Yeah. And I, but I don't know. I just, I, I don't know if it's her family relationship age. I'm not, maybe it's all those things. I don't know. Yeah.
No, you, you, you, you brought up that like Fallon, Fallon came in. We did this relation knowing what she was signing up for when Katie and I met like, yeah, I was rock climbing, but mostly sport. I wasn't doing any crazy mountaineering really. And I just started paragliding and I don't think she knew what she was signing up for at all. And she's been a total champ, like riding along for this and like adapting. And she's definitely not a high risk person. And I think I definitely push her to the limit sometimes even just flying with her. Uh, and then, yeah, her, her watching me, supporting me in these races is, is, is really a big burden, uh, for her. And, and I
think like ultimately I'm up for it. Like I, I want to reassure her and I want to, I want to take what she has to offer in terms of my risk-taking to heart. Um, you know, I think that this relationship has the potential to, maybe it already has like saved me, saved my life multiple times. And, uh, I, I see, I see her, her mentality as an asset to me. Um, and I, I hope that I can continue to, to share some of my risk-taking decision-making with her so that we can collaborate and, and find a good middle ground that makes her feel at least a little bit in control of, of whether or not I do something stupid. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's difficult.
It's difficult to navigate for sure. Um, and it's a challenge that, that I think is really, it helps Katie and I grow as a couple. Um, and it will continue to, uh, and we'll see what, what it, what it does to my progression after we have kids. Um, I can't say, I don't know. I don't know what will happen.
Very eloquently said. Uh, I wish I had your maturity and your thought process when I was your age. I wish I did now actually. Uh, Sebrin, anything, uh, before we shut her down here that we didn't hit on that you want to talk about?
Yeah. Yeah. So a big part of this race for me that was actually quite different from the X-Spear even is that I, I pretty much my whole team had never done a hike and fly race before. Uh, had done one with me the year before the Dolomiti super fly. Um, but he's not like a pro cross country pilot. Um, I, my remote guy has been flying for five years, but also not by no means a pro weather guy or pro cross country guy. We were all, we were all rookies. Everybody was a rookie. Um, in the X-Spear, I had Philadelphia, Nell Wolf supporting me and, uh, my friend, Victor Burchett, who used to also be a U S pilot. And now he's in France with me in Grenoble. Um, but both of them have been flying for ages, Victor for tens of years and Philadelphia for, I think, 10 years.
Um, and they were able to really remote control me during the X-Spear. Like I was flying places I'd never flown. And they were just like, Hey, the next thermal is, is, you know, 10 meters to your left, like just push a little further down this range and you'll, you'll ping off. To three and a half thousand meters. I'm like, Oh yeah, here's the convergence line. You know, just, just fly a little bit more South and you're going to, you're going to be in it in the next five minutes. Um, this team was, was not at all like they were awesome. And they were able to help me look at like existing lines. They were helping to get, they were really, really able to give me information of what was going on, but they could not tell me how to fly. Um, and I think me being fragile at the start of the race, I really wanted that. And I was like constantly,
being disappointed and just getting, becoming more and more of an asshole, like expecting them to be able to do things, which like going into the race, I knew I wasn't asking them. Right. I like, I knew these guys were, were as rookie as me or more so. And, and that was like, that was part of what I was excited about is that we were all going to learn how to do this together. Um, and, and I think what was so cool is like, once I, I got out of that shitty mindset on day four, I realized exactly what I needed to be giving them and what, they needed to be giving me. And on the morning of, of, of day four, where we were hiking through the night, um, I gave them all super clear instructions and like everything started to come together. I was like, David, I need you looking at Andra and Hugo and telling me exactly how much distance they've made every two minutes.
Like how far behind me they are. Uh, Tom, I need you, you know, giving me step-by-step directions on how to like most efficiently make it down the Marino Valley without running into any dead ends. And Zach and Kyle, I need you to, to alternating feeding me, uh, gels every 20 minutes and water every 15. And then Rostam, I need you driving alongside us, making sure that each of them have everything they need. And like, that was like the kind of leadership that they wanted from me. And when I was actually able to step into it and give it to them, like all the team dynamics sorted themselves out and everything became like the, by the end of the race, I felt like we were working like a well-oiled machine compared to the start of the race where none of us had any idea what we were doing. And like that, like, that was just amazing. And the amount that we were able to bond through that growth was,
was so cool.
That's a really cool kind of synergy that you build. Then when, you know, when people, when you go from, Oh God, I got to say this to just everybody doing it without anybody saying anything, you know, just there, that's a neat thing to observe and be a part of, isn't it?
Yeah. It's so cool. Yeah. The way everyone kind of figures out their role and yeah, you no longer have to ask. That was really cool.
Sebring, you're awesome, man. I I've been really looking forward to this. I really appreciate, I think everybody who watched your campaign really appreciates you and your honesty. And, uh, it was, it was bitching watching your adventure, man. It was, it was a lot of fun. And one of the reasons I love this race is just every single person in that and their teams are having just such a special adventure. It's, it's remarkable for all of them. And, but it was, it was great to taste yours a little bit, but, uh, thanks for coming. Everyone that
does this race is so freaking cool, dude. I I've just been, it's, it's been such an honor to get to know all the people that do this race so much better. And, uh, I'm in touch with so many of them now, like just the amount of support that's come out about the broken foot. Like I've been cheering them all on and their 300 K triangles in the past week. And it's just been, these are, these are going to be lifelong friends. And it's, it was such an honor to get to compete in this race and, and share that with them.
Awesome, man. Well, good luck, uh, speedy healing. Although I full healing is what we're, we're wishing for here. Uh, but, uh, get healthy and take your time and, uh, see you when we see you, bud.
Yeah. Thanks so much, Gavin. It's a pleasure. If
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