251. Risk and the Red Bull X-Alps - Tom De Dorlodot

Hi

there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. As promised in the last show, got some guests coming up who were a big part of this year's Red Bull X-Alps, an amazing and fast race that had a lot of twists and turns and a lot of incredible storylines. Crigel finally unseated after eight wins. The first non-Swiss who's ever won, Aaron Durogati, had an incredible race, and on and on and on. Celine Lorenz, who had probably the best adventure. I don't know if she would call it the best, but we've got her coming up on a future show. I'm talking to her in a couple days.

And I'll also be talking to Simone Oberhauener, who was third and just seconds behind. And Lars Myrstetter. So that was pretty exciting. But this show is with Tom de Dorlodot. Tom has been on the show quite a few times. We heard from him a few months back about his horrific accident, snow kiting up in Norway in his rather gnarly year, trying to make a comeback from that. He was planning on racing, but his leg is still pretty fragile. But he took his first flight, well, he took a little flight in the Azores before he went over. But he took a little flight in the Azores before he went over. And we all got to see him take his first real flight just before the prologue in Kitzbühel and did quite a bit of flying during the race, cruising around the course line, working for Red Bull Adventure.

And he and I connected quite a few times during the race and for the show and for various interviews and that kind of thing. And I wanted to just connect with him because the maybe big kind of behind the scenes storyline. I don't know if it would be. But certainly there was a ton of social media chatter and angst about the risk of the race, that it's gotten too risky and pilots are taking too much risk and making decisions because it's a race or because of media or sponsors or pressure that they haven't seen in the past. And it's become more gladiator than adventure race.

And for the most part. For the most part, I totally disagree with that. And I was curious to see where Tom sat on the subject. And so we sat down and had a discussion about other aspects with, you know, Chrigel not winning and what contributed or didn't contribute there. And some other kind of fun stuff before we dive into specifically risk and the Red Bull X-Alps. Will Gadd put up a post, always very articulate and well thought out. During the race after and he posted it with that pretty wild launch that David Cesedelli had on day two during the North Fern. And, you know, again, the way I saw that was different than the way many of you saw it.

So I wanted to kind of take a deep dive on this. Actually, the latest issue of Cross Country Magazine just came out and it's got my column in there that takes this on as well. But I argue pretty vehemently that it hasn't gotten more risky than it's been like this all along. We just have a lot more social media these days that's putting things out there. You know, we didn't used to have all that. So now everything and anything athletes do immediately goes on Instagram and other platforms. And, you know, those who spectate and watch and especially many are, you know, don't have names. They don't have names to go with it and they can hide and they just create a lot of messy stuff on social media these days.

And so it threatens the race. It threatens the sport in a sense. But there's also some good arguments. And so we we try to take it all on. This was a lot of fun. Tom is always so fantastic to talk to and get his thoughts about these kind of things. And it was fun to chat about it. So. Yeah. As you all know, this is my favorite subject, the Red Bull X-House. And I know I probably bring you all too much of it. But while it's still fresh, I thought we'd take a dive on it. And like I said, you know, we've got Simone and Celine coming up. We had very different races and great adventures and two just fantastic, wonderful athletes, people excited

to get their thoughts as well. So enjoy this one. Enjoy the next couple of shows. If you're having a great summer in the North. The Northern Hemisphere and some big flights in. Cheers.

Tom, as always, welcome back to the Mayhem. You know, your show this this winter was the most listened to we've had. And that was a quite an emotional ride for everybody listening. Just hearing about your accident and the gnarly recovery. And it was so cool. So, I mean, before we even get into the topic of today, which is risk and what's happening with the X-Alps and is, you know, just anything need to change and I, I'm really interested in this because I think you and I might, we always agree and see, see things pretty similarly, but I'm, I'm interested to see if we see this the same way. So it'll be, it'll be fun to explore this topic with you, but it was cool to see you fly. You, you did, I think your first flight, uh, since the comeback in Kitzbühel.

Is that right?

Yeah. I just had a, a little short flight here in the Azores just to see if I could still steer a paraglider. And then, yeah, my first. The first proper flight was in, uh, in Kitzbühel. Yeah. It was quite emotional to be flying again, uh, in the Alps. It was wonderful.

Yeah. Bad. It was, it was neat to see you land that day down at the prologue, uh, finish and, uh, just, I think it was emotional for everybody. We've all, you know, been kind of privy to what you've been going through. Of course, you know, you it's you're, you're feeling it and had to go through a pretty gnarly year, but it's good to see you on the mend and you just had a cool XC flight in the Azores today, right before the podcast.

Yeah, man, it was, it was wonderful. You know, these little unexpected flights, um, this morning I woke up, I saw the day I canceled my physiotherapy. I canceled everything. I knew I had to be back for the podcast. I was like, okay, I have a few hours. So I escaped and, uh, I went for a really nice fight. Some flight that I had never been doing before. Like when basically a crossing of the island, uh, from South to North, um, all the way to the lighthouse and then back to the house and landing. Yeah. Just in the garden 30 minutes ago or something. I just had the time to put a short, you know, put my hat and, uh, come and talk to you. And it's, um, you know, like these little flights are just priceless. I love it. Um, it's not a big distance. It's not a super technical, but I'm exploring my island, you know, and, uh, we are two pilots here on the island.

So it's really, everything is new, you know, like every, every day I take the motorbike or the mountain bike and I go explore and I find some new flying places because it's a, it's a volcano, you know? So we have pretty much every direction. Um, and if the wind is too strong, we have to go lower. If the wind is not strong enough, then we have to find some nice places. Uh, and, and just about my house, I have one or two amazing takeoff. I can hike from the house. Uh, it's like a 30, 30 minutes hike. It's my usual training in the morning. And then I can fly, uh, from there on the East face early in the morning, fly terminals or land back to the house. So it's, uh, yeah, it's wonderful. I love it.

And what's the latest on the leg? How are things coming?

So, yeah, the leg is, uh, is, is doing better. Um, you know, just after the exile, I could go to the APC, the athlete performance center. So Red Bull has this, this amazing place where we can get access to doctors, physio, uh, nutritionist and everything. So it was, it was wonderful. I spent a week there of, uh, you know, pushing and trying to get back into it. Um, but, uh, yeah, the X-rays are, are good. They're showing. It's, um, you know, it's getting better. Uh, so that that's really good. The infection is under control. So now it's basically waiting for the bone to heal. And as I'm putting more pressure on it and more weight, it's, it's gonna accelerate it a little bit, but it will take a bit of time. I mean, my feeling is that is really slow, obviously, as you know, we know, like, uh, we're, we're, uh, like a lion in cage in a cage, you know, when you're hurt like that, but I can fly, I can take off.

I can land. Um, I can walk around. It's not, I cannot.

I can go

for a long distance, but I can cycle a little bit. I can swim. So, I mean, I'm back, I'm back, you know, slowly, uh, getting there. And I think it's just a question of time now before I can fully heal, but it will take time. Another two, three, four, eight months. I don't know exactly, but now I can fly. I can do my thing. It can work. Uh, I'm traveling in, in two or three days. I'm going to Georgia, uh, to do a record trip with Horacio. And, uh, so yeah, back to pretty much normal life, which is amazing.

That's awesome. Are you in the family, you guys get stir crazy at all on the island? You always hear about this, especially smaller islands that, you know, it starts to feel pretty isolated.

Yeah. You know, yeah, I guess, uh, I mean, I'm lucky, you know, that I can, I can travel quite a lot, you know, so, um, and people are extremely nice here. You know, we are in the center of the Atlantic, quite far from everything. Uh, we are like more than a thousand kilometer west of Portugal of the mainland, you know, so it's really in the middle of nowhere, you can compare it to Hawaii, except that it's a lot smaller. Like my island only has 15,000 inhabitants, you know, it's very, very small. Everyone knows each other pretty much. Um, but the, the beauty of it is that it's, it's kind of the center of the world for sailors, as you know, you know, the Marina of Orta, uh, Peter cafe and all that. It's quite, quite, uh, known, uh, because every boat that crosses the Atlantic from west to east basically stops here to refuel, to buy food, fresh veggies and fruits and stuff.

So it's very international. We, we see a lot of people, especially at this time of the year, we see around 2000 boats, sailing boats stop here during the season. Yeah. So it's amazing. Like yesterday we were, uh, having a drink at the, the Marina and you see boats arriving, celebrating, happy to be there, you know, and then they go again. So we, we've made many friends when we were sailing around the Atlantic and, uh, now they come and visit us. So we don't, we don't feel like we are so much alone or remote, but, uh, but I like remote. So, uh, you know, if, if it was nobody on the island, I'll be happy to say no problem.

Okay. So X-Alps 25, amazing race, amazing weather. Uh, so many, you know, we could just unpack forever. But, uh, the first thing I got to ask you is, you know, until this, you were planning on competing, weren't able to compete because of the injury, but you had the most under your belt other than Toma, uh, nine. And so. So this would have been your 10th, if I have that right. Is that right?

That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, so you flip, I mean, since 2007, you've raced, what was it like, you know, you were kind of like Tarquin and I were racing around, grabbing stories, doing interviews, uh, hanging out with Jean de Billy from Belgium. Uh, it looked like you were having a blast as I was. It's so fun, isn't it? It just being on kind of the other side, uh, some people call it the dark side, but what was that experience like? I mean, can you, can you summarize that? Did you love it? Did you hate

it? What was it like? I mean, it was a mixed feeling, obviously, you know, because, um, I was dreaming to be, to be there and be part of it, you know, as a, as an athlete, but at the same time, you know, what was wonderful for me was I was basically coming back to my family, you know, it's been a year of, you know, heart, uh, hard times in the hospital and stuff. So one of a sudden you're back with the people you like and you love and, um, surrounded by all the paragliders. And so,

um, I think that was

the first thing that really felt good, you know, to get out of my, uh, dark hole and then, you know, back to the mountains. And, uh, so that was the first thing or like the feeling was great and, uh, seeing the, the organizers and the race director and everyone. So that was good. Um, and then, you know, it was a totally different experience, obviously than participating. Uh, and it was, you know, like an eye opener, really, um, you see things totally different, really, when, when you're not in the race, when you're in the race, you have this tunnel, you know, like, uh, kind of a approach, you're racing, you're full on, you don't really see what's happening around you and stuff. And when you take a bit of altitude, a bit of distance, and one of a sudden things start to make sense. You start to understand the moves, the strategy, you can have an overlook, you know, and you have time to think and look at strategies and who does what and how, and, and it was extremely interesting.

I've learned so much, um, you know, what was hard. It was, it was so fast. I mean, I don't know how you guys were, you know, following these guys and flying and shooting lives and stuff, because I had a hard time. I was with a friend of mine who was driving, uh, but I heard really hard time to follow. So you're on the live tracking all day long, watching what's happening. And then at the same time, you're trying to follow and see the guys before they take off. It was the base of it was just wide and, um, yeah, insane. And really when, when you're racing, you're like, you feel like, oh, you have time, you know, just walking a bit and then, but actually you realize how much work the supporters and the teams have to put into it, uh, to be able to follow and deliver, uh, you know, good support to the, to the athletes.

So yeah, a lot of respect for the teams, uh, they they've put an incredible show and, uh, it was nice to see it from, from the outside and also obviously, and we're, we're going to be talking about it. It's like the old risk, um, management and stuff. Then you, when you're not racing, you see also, you see things that you. You usually don't see when you're racing, I guess. Um, and, uh, that's, uh, yeah, that got me thinking a little bit, but, um, no, it was wonderful. I really enjoyed it flying with the guys, seeing the level of the guys, um, watching the lines and stuff. It was, it was super interesting. Yeah.

Did you find, I, you know, in the, I, I did this role for the first time in the last one in 23. So this was the second time in this role. Uh, I really felt my takeaway. After the last one was, wow, if I did this again, that really helped me. I, you know, like you said, you see it from a completely different perspective. Maybe I was thinking about this when I was interviewing John to Billy, your friend, uh, after the race, you know, because he supported you in 23 and I've never supported anybody. And I thought, man, that's what a key thing to do. What a smart thing to do before you're, you take it on as an athlete to support somebody, to see that side of it. Uh, but for me racing around and, and it's like you said, it is, it's very different and you're not in that mindset and because I'm doing a lot of flying and a lot of filming in the air, you know, there, there were a lot of more in 23, cause there were some pretty windy days in 23, you know, day two of this one.

It just, that wasn't, I wasn't going to find that there's no point in, in, in this, you know, for what I'm doing, but every other day I flew and it's, it's, it's very different. You're not in that mindset. You're, you're just, you know, the stuff that we saw this time, I'm pretty sure if you and I were in the race, it wouldn't have been that big a deal, but when you're, when you're just filming or, you know, there's nothing on the line, it's a completely different head. You're not in that X-Alps headspace and you're kind of like, Hey, this, I don't need that. I don't need to, I don't need to take this risk, you know? Um, so that's, that's different, but just to see, I had a moment in this race where the last day for the leaders, uh, above school, you were there. Yeah. I hiked up and I flew with Simone and, uh, Aaron and Chrigel and Lars launched about 10 minutes before they did.

He's about 10, 10 kilometers back, but then they all gaggled up pretty quick. And I flew with those guys, you know, 40, 50 K on their way to Laramus and that was fine. The flying was great, but, and they weren't really racing yet, you know? So it was just everybody working together. It was just lovely flying and it was a lovely day and there was no wind. It was just easy. But watching them online. Launch was really instructional for me. I don't think in any of my campaigns, have I ever been that relaxed like they were, you know, I just remember constantly racing all the time, just always trying to catch up and moving and make them and going. And they were so chill. They were just hanging out, telling stories, laughing. Chrigel was being hysterical. Um, you know, there was no, it was all camaraderie and no racing.

They weren't, they weren't trying to, you know, one up. One of the, it was just, and they were in the lead, you know, they were, it was instructional for me to see how calm you should be. Cause I'm just, that's not my personality, you know? And that was great to just witness all that, just to hang out up there for an hour. Cause I would've been going, I think I should go. I don't know. Maybe I should go. It's starting to come on. I should go, you know, and they were just not, wait till it's obviously on. We were out in the lead. We take our time. I

think they, they agreed on, on not racing until the most. And then in Lambo. They said, okay, now let's race. I was in Lambo's with them. So I landed that day and then I took the car because my supporter was doing that flight to Lambo. So I said, okay, I'm going to drive to Lambo's. And then I took off in Lambo's and I saw the guys coming. Um, and I've seen them on takeoff and they were like, okay, well let's race now, you know, and they, the mood changed. But what I think also is that they kind of knew that anything could happen and it could go anyway, you know, like any direction, um, at that moment, you know, when they are in Lambo's. They know one of them will win, but it's really hard to know who and how, you know, it's like really, you can be pushing, but sometimes you push too fast and then you're in front, but then you're too low.

And then it's at that level, you know, with these flying gear and with the level of those guys, you know, and, um, it could have gone any direction really. And I think they know it, uh, they have nothing to prove anymore. Like when you've been flying for a week altogether and one day I'm in front, one day you're in front and one day someone else is like, you know, there's a little bit of a, a part of, of luck in there, you know, involved. And I'm not saying that to, uh, you know, Aaron did an amazing move and his option paid off and he deserves the win. I'm just saying that they kind of relax because they, they have nothing to prove anymore. You know, they, the top five, six, seven, like these guys, they all deserve the win kind of thing, you know, like, uh, but, uh, but it's true.

It's, it's wonderful to be outside and see it from the outside, because then you realize like, um, the state of mind, you also see how the teams work, you know, and, and what they should be doing or what day they're trying to improve. Or, um, you, you see the whole thing and being in the backstage like that. I think it's, it's really interesting. Um, and for sure, I've learned a lot and I exactly like you, I think that the best way, if you, if you one day want to do the Excel, it's the best way for sure to support a good team, you know, one or two teams actually, you know, like if you go to, um, Eve. Follow the race, you know, I, I was, you know, if you look at tour de France, for example, there are people that go in the camper van and they follow the whole race. You know, I haven't seen that much in the Excels, but I think for paragliding pilots, it'd be so interesting to just rent a camper van and follow the race and fly here and there and trying to meet the athletes and see what they're doing and stuff, because it's such a, an amazing learning, learning tool, you know?

So, yeah, it'd be interesting to, to think about that. There was that

guy that did the whole thing on his bike. I know that till the end, I kept seeing this guy in the red shirt, who is this dude? And he did the whole thing, including the, I just learned on that latest post, the Via Ferrata as well.

Amazing. Huh? Yeah. And I mean, this, this year was fast, so it's like you, you do that on a two weeks Excels, that's something else, but pushing like that every day with all the, the positive meters and stuff. I mean, the flying this year and that's, that's maybe the only thing I'm a little bit sad about, um, with this year is that. I would have really enjoyed this edition, you know, because obviously the second day was rough, but it was flyable every day. They've covered a lot of distance. If you look at the numbers with, uh, guys like Simon who flew like 200 and something kilometers, uh, who hike only 200 and something kilometers, you know, it was ridiculous. The numbers are really, really low. Um, and, uh, if I compare it to some of the years where I walked maybe 700 kilometers or something, you know, so it's like, huh?

Uh, there's a bit of a difference here. So, um, yeah, no, that would have been a really funny and really enjoyable year to fly, uh, and spar spades. But, um, yeah, at the same time, super interesting and, and also kind of, uh, wondering a little bit, you know, because once you've seen it from the outside, you're like, yeah, well, it was intense. It was risky. You see people maybe not making the right decisions and stuff and you're like, Hmm, been there, done that. Maybe.

You know, I

should be more careful next time. So it was, uh, it was, uh, quite interesting, uh, for me to see, yeah, yeah, yeah, really. And, and, and the atmosphere, uh, you know, the teams and stuff. So, but, um, we were always trying to, to be there when something was happening. And, uh, obviously I couldn't hike, I couldn't go into the mountains much, you know, so I was, I was always trying to meet the guys here and there. Um, and it was great to see the, I think the overall, the overall latitude of, of the athletes was really cool. Like everyone was quite positive was, uh, um, but obviously it helps when the weather is good. Put, uh, two or three days of hard rain in there, you know, and then that's another story, I guess. Yeah. The

weather was really extraordinary. I mean, there wasn't that much OD. There wasn't really, you know, we, there, there was the big day when they were going through the big terrain and, and Tim Malongi bowed out. I mean, there, there wasn't that it was weather free day two was pretty gnarly. The end of day one was wicked gnarly. That was, that was amazing. We'll talk about that here in a bit, but for the most part, you know, to be able to do to fly as much as they did, you know, I think what day, uh, seven, uh, you know, when they did quite a bit of walking through St. Moritz, you know, it was, it was really wet that day, but just overall remarkable. I mean, every time I was in the air, it was mellow. It was just obvious and nice and hardly any wind and really quite terrific conditions.

Yeah.

And how was it for you to keep up with these guys? Because like I, I flew a little bit from Lermos, you know, following Aaron and then the group splits and stuff. And obviously I was not really sharp. You know, I could feel that my level is a little bit down now I haven't been flying for a while. Um, but I was thinking, you know, like when you're in the X-Alps, you, you push you, you're more aggressive. Um, you probably like, yeah, attacking quite a bit, you know, and, um, I was wondering like for you to be there. Yeah. A little bit of a shock. To see all these guys, you know, but at the same time film, um, yeah, it should, it must have been a challenge. No,

I, I got out flown every single flight. It was, it was, it, it almost became depressing. Uh, the, I mean, the only time it was really keeping up was the first day, uh, from kids people, the conditions were amazing. But even then, once we got over the spine of the Alps, I w I was pushing a little bit too much, got a little too low. At three. LSs. of us peeled off and and that was the end for them as well, uh, so you know, we got kind of on the wrong side of that od, and I mean, again and again, I kept thinking, what would I have done differently in the race, uh, you know, it's interesting, sometimes I was finding that they were just flying way more conservative than my attitude typically is, which is again, great education for me, you know, just being able to see how the leaders were operating, uh, you know, certainly like that day when they were heading to Laramos, there was no racing going on, but I was still having a hard time, you know, keeping up, and I was semi blaming that on my gear, you know, I didn't have the sub, uh, but that seems pretty minimal, like I said, they weren't racing, and so I think I just don't know if it's not because I, I mean, I am pretty tuned up, I've been flying World Cups and stuff, but I don't, I, I couldn't really pin it down to whether I just wasn't really totally tuned up or it was the distraction of the gear, um, you know, because I am fooling around with that stuff a lot, and so maybe that's just that little bit, little bit, little bit, and it adds up into a lot of bit, yeah.

I guess you know it's, it's probably many different reasons, but one, one thing I think is like, you to perform at your highest level, you really have to kind of reach that flow state thing, you know? And for that, you need to be extremely concentrated and somehow highly

Racing, then there is a goal, there is a, you know, like there is an objective. Like you, you, you, they are for a reason. Um, and obviously, I guess it's not the same. Like, if you've been training for a year and you're really like, okay, you know that every kilometer you fly, you won't have to hike it, you know? Like you, you full on, and you've been sharpening the knife, you know? But then, if you're there to come to make content, you have distractions, you know? You have to film, you have to hold your brakes, you have to do this and that. That, I think, it's extremely difficult. I mean, I was, I was amazed. Like, I was, you know, you would, you would go with the the top 10 all the time and fly long lines and stuff, and being relaxed in the air and flying with one hand and holding the brakes with the other. And well done, I mean, that's, that's not an easy task.

And especially in these places that we sometimes, we don't know, we've never been there. Some of these guys, they're there every weekend, you know? So, but, uh, but I, this is what my analyze was, because I tried also to follow a little bit and I, I really couldn't keep up. It was really like, you need to get into that mental state of, you know, being fully there. Um, and for me, for example, having to think about how I need a smooth landing because of my leg, or, you know, the car is following, what's next, this and that. And then, yeah, you're just not there. And, um, so, but it was impressive to see how, how, um, incredibly, like they, Simon, for example, everyone says in the group, you know, they

feel that Simon was extremely effective at thermaling, uh, going up, you know, like it would, it would always catch up. Obviously, there is, it can be a little bit of the flying gear and this and that, but I think he has a special feeling. Um, Iron is obviously extremely strong when we're talking about top speed, accelerating really close to the ground, you know, it's his favorite thing. Um, and so it was interesting that you have a group with different flying style, but they kind of get along well because one is really good at this and one is really good at that, and then you have, and then they kind of keep up with each other. It's, it's really interesting because they do have different flying style when you look at them flying, you see it. Um, and so it's, it's very interesting. I

think the the confidence, like you said, there's there's two things that I think are huge players in this game is confidence and flow state, and those are both things that in my job I don't have either. You know, all of my long flights, I'm getting calls every 10 minutes from the production team, "We need this, we need this." I'm sending files in the air, uh, you know, I'm I'm just as far from flow state as you can get. Yeah, and then exactly, you know, and then the other, like you said, is confidence. It's just, you know, every time I had to do a top landing or something, I am not tuned up. I haven't been doing this every day for a year. I, you know, the day before the race, I was up testing filming gear at Kidsbule and watching Chrigel just tweak, just top land, top landing, and I was like, "Oh my god, top land, top land, top land, top land, and swoop land and big wing overs and top." I mean, he was just

Still, one day before the race, just nailing it over and over and over and smiling and having fun and, and you know, just training to the bitter end. And I haven't done that many top landings in a year, you know? And so it was, I think, so much of it is just that little bit of—not a little bit, a lot of—just that, yeah, like you said, like the confidence. I thought about it too, a lot, in the, you know, like you don't see Simone and Tommy and a lot of these guys, they're not World Cup pilots. You don't see him on the—I mean, they'll, they'll do some racing and stuff, but I really used to think, you know, Chrigel's real, he's got all the stuff right, all the magic, but he also spent a lot, you know, last year he just kind of almost came out of World Cup retirement and flew his advanced harness and wasn't flying a sub in Switzerland and got third.

You know, I mean, that's in his hometown, you know, that—that can't hurt. But, um, you know, it's, it's just, it's interesting that, that, that the game can be played a lot of different ways. Like you said, those top four guys, they fly really differently. Uh, you know, Aaron has won the Superfinal twice, he's really good at racing, super fearless, and we have to say that's what gave him the win that last day. You know, that was a bold line, especially for someone who's not very comfortable with airspace. And, you know, for sure he had the same data points, for sure he knew that if he went south, that's the most reliable way to do it. But, uh, you know, he went for the win. That was interesting. You know, I chatted with him quick, briefly, at, uh, at the Ascona turn point, and he kind of did this funny top landing just behind the turn point there, and I was walking with him and I said, "Hey, you know, it's Dave, whatever it was, five or six, uh, you know, you're right in there, what's your headspace?" And he looked at me like I was an idiot.

"What's my headspace? My headspace is to win, you know?" And I just, that was awesome. It was cool to see. I mean, he, this, this has always been kind of his Achilles' heel and he went for it.

Yeah, yeah, and it, but also he gave some place to, you know, emotional decisions. I, I was quite, uh, surprised that in Maran, he decided to go to his flying local site, you know, because he was in the lee side, it didn't make any sense it? It was really working on the other side and stuff. And when I asked him, I was like, why? You know, like, it didn't make sense. And he's like, well, you know, it's emotional. It's my hometown. I need it. go there which was uh hometown

disadvantage oh

Man, yeah, totally. Like, it was, it was, it was a bad decision that day, you know? It didn't work. Um, and I was in front seeing the guys launching in strong wind and seeing them in the in in the lee side. And so he's, he's, uh, that, um, yeah, there's this emotional Italian vibe that I like with him also. Like, uh, he follows his heart and and feeling, um, but yeah, he was there, he was there to win. Uh, he's been training a lot and it's the only thing that he was missing, kind of thing, you know? So for him to win the excel sits, this has

always been his kind of his Achilles, yeah. So that was, that was cool to see. And and again, you were

Gonna get, yeah, yeah, no, go for it. No, no, go ahead, go ahead. No, and you were talking about confidence, and I think where Figel maybe at some stage lost that confidence, it's, you know, he's been trying to do different things. You know, many times during the race, he tried new moves, bold moves, he took some risks, uh, and he didn't work once, didn't work twice, you know? And then one of a sudden, you start gliding with these guys with the submarines, and and you can tell maybe there's a little bit of a difference there, and I think that was just enough for him to maybe start doubting, you know, like he, he could see that it was not as easy as it used to be, um, and uh, and then when that comes, you know, that comes down, and then to this, it's like, okay, well, can I still do it?

Uh, and I know that someone in his team left, you know, the support team left in the middle of the race and stuff, so you know, it's, um, yeah, uh, talk about confidence, you know, maybe it was, uh, shattered down there, who knows? Um, but, um, it will come back really strong, and obviously it was one of the strongest, uh, and and he had an amazing attitude during the whole race, and at the end also beautiful attitude, so, um, but yeah, I think, um, now we'll see what happens in two years, but he's gonna be, he's gonna be there for sure. I'm pretty sure we'll be pushing

Yeah, I was just gonna say before, that was a perfect transition, because before we get into the risk, we do, we do have to comment on, on Creole, because I think people are going to be really fascinated with, with what we think is that I haven't seen anything about this, but the, you know, in camp and just talking about it, the, the big question certainly for me, I think, for, for others as well, as it seemed like, I mean, I was there the day that he had, he actually had to have a person leave his team, uh, I don't know how public he wants to make that, but you know, there was some friction there, uh, and one of the team members was asked to leave, that was the day before the last day that came up, and he had to handle that, you know, it was his executive decision, and so that can't be very easy, but I think two things really aligned against Chrigel this time is one, the weather was really good, um, and we know that Maxime and Aaron and maybe a couple others have his technical ability or better, you know, they're, they're, you know, Maxime for sure, best pilot in the world right now, uh, from a lot of standpoints, you know, when it comes to gliding and lines and climbing, uh, you know, and obviously we didn't get to see that in this race with him bowing out day two, but, uh, you know, we, Chrigel, we've seen his magic moves and he tried them, uh, several times, you know, he calls it sporting risk, he certainly tried this time, but I feel like he didn't have the bad weather that he, yeah, when he reigned supreme, you know, when it's just gnarly, uh, you know, a couple more day twos, you know, he definitely could have had his breakout, uh, and I, so I, I think, you know, they were all, we've always seen him shine once he gets out in front, and he just was never able to, and he was never able to make those magic moves, and then the other big question, which I'd love to get your thoughts on, is the gear, um, you know, I think eight days 1300k, which is really a couple thousand, you know, when you add it all up, um, it must have made a big difference, you know, I mean, you see it in the World Cup and it's just like I said, it's a little bit, but a little bit, I mean, he always talks about if you can get an extra 2k every flight in the X-Alps, you're gonna crush that rate, you're gonna, you're going to win, I mean, it's those little gains, there's just that little bit extra glide, a little

And he's the master of that, and I think, you know, I got to see it in the air this time because I wasn't on a sub, and you know, it's—it's not a huge difference, but it's—there is a difference. Yeah, there's a difference, so

Yeah, no, totally. I agree with you, and uh, I think I couldn't agree more. Like, first thing first, is Klegel is extremely good in really rough technical conditions that that we know. I've been flying with him, I've been training with him in Neeson in that area with been, you know, flying around and stuff. And I don't know if he wanted to prove a point or anything, but he would fly always in the lee side. He will push the speed bar full on, you know, next to the walls and stuff. He's good at this, um, and and he has a really strong, uh, you know, mental spirit, very, very strong. So, mentally speaking, he can go through anything. And and this is one of the thing that you see with these cross country pilot that have quite a background in acro, uh, like guys like Horacio, Hernan Pitoco, Chrigel, Pál Takáts, you know, team laundry.

These guys, you know, they they go anywhere, they fly in the lee sides, they get smashed, and they still have a smile on their face, and they're happy to be there, you know. And they can manage anything, like a twist is just another maneuver for them, you know, if they twist it. So it's like, it's like really when I, when I fly with Horacio, I, I've seen things in Pakistan in the high mountains, you know, one day I was With, with a camera, and I had my two hands on the camera, and then one of a sudden comes out of the cloud in front of me, and we were going to crash, like I didn't have time to do anything, and I see a big smile on his face, and he goes, "Dynamics told in front of me with a comb glider," you know, at 7,000 meters. So it's like, and totally normal, you know? Yeah, that's fun, just no big deal, this. It's just, it's another league, like, of, of technical piloting, like, you, you would go to the PWC or to the World Cup, and you see people there, they're struggling to take off, or they, you know, the level is not exactly there, you know?

Like, uh, but they're, they can fly, they can thermal, they can fly with a group and stuff, they can do amazing things. But, but Kiegel is one of these guys, as you said, like, you can land anywhere, can take off anywhere. It's like Patrick, you know, they have these skills, um, and that's, that's make them very efficient in really heavy, shitty weather. So when, when you have a week like this, uh, where the weather is quite okay, you know, you for everyone

disadvantage is not there anymore, uh, but you give him two days, a phone, and he smashes it, you know, for sure. Um, so that's one thing. And then for the gear, you know, I had this conversation with Advance, because Advance has always been on on top of the game, you know, they've always been pushing. Uh, Kiegel has won so many titles with Advance and stuff, so they've always been there. But this year, it was actually Kiegel's decision not to go for the submarine, you know, he, he thought that, um, it was more disadvantage that than advantages. So that the way he puts it, he says, you know, like, if I have to land and walk with it, um, and and so I think, you know, because he was one of the first to come with that idea of the submarines, you know, like years ago he had a really nice orange submarine and he tried this thing and he was, so he was kind of behind this, this idea actually long time ago, uh, and he didn't like it for whatever reason.

And so I think that he thought, well, you know, if I change it, maybe not ready, uh, not ready on time, I cannot train with it. And that's where being conservative in a way kind of was a disadvantage to him, like he should have, you know, like it's, it's like we say, you don't change a team that wins, you know, yeah, right? But it's by changing, you know, the approach that maybe you can beat the guy, you know. So I think there, I've seen it, you know, I, I watch every day, um, these glides and stuff and

I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm not ready for this. I'm not ready for this," and

Again, as you just said, like it's, it was a week of good flyable weather, so the difference, it's, it's minimal, but it's there. One day we were in Andermatt and they were flying out, uh, towards the Foca Pass and and Damien and Chrigel took off at the same time, and when Damien landed, plus he was helped a little bit by, by some early terminal, I guess, but he was really higher up and he really gained some distance, um, and so I think that the gear made a difference, um, and I think everyone notices it, like it's not the glider, it's the submarine, um, and again it's like pretty much the same as we just said, like for example, two years ago when we were in these rough, rough conditions in phone in the Dolomites, the Omega, the advanced glider, does really well in these conditions, like it's a glider designed by Chrigel and the team for Chrigel and the team, uh, for these conditions is really good at.

So when you go into really rough weather with this glider, and I've been there, I've flagged the Omega two years ago, um, I was, I could compare to the other gliders that were doing a lot more, you know, movements, a lot more sneaky kind of thing, the guys were on their brakes where I could be on my phone, you know, the, the Omega was a massive success, actually. They've never sold so many Omega, uh, advanced told me that not long ago because, because of that, it's a very compact glider, very strong again is a glider that does really well in these rough conditions with good performance goes well around against the wind, but if you have an amazing floating flying days, then maybe it's not the best tool again. So, um, yeah, but but I could, I could, I could see a difference.

What's interesting is that you see someone like, um, like Aaron coming with Nova, which is not top of the game, and you know, but they developed something, they came up with something nice that flies well, and, uh, yeah, Aaron surely did really well with it, so quite interesting. And the harnesses, that the harness that Aaron was using was also quite cool. It's a little brand in France, I think. Um, they've done amazing job, um, but yeah, so what's for sure is that, uh, Advents will be working on a submarine for 2027 because, um, because you need that extra kick, you know, that little extra, uh, performance. Now the level is so tight, everyone is so close to each other that you, you need everything. It'd

Be interesting to talk to him, wouldn't it? Because I mean, I didn't have it after the race. I just, I literally actually didn't know what to say to him. I mean, like you said, he just, he, he did, he does everything in such style. And he was, you know, it was, it was, he had a great attitude, like you said, certainly outwardly. I'm sure internally he was, he was a little pissed off. But, uh, I would imagine that the overconfidence bug got him a little bit with this decision because, like I said, a year ago he just shows up at a World Cup, flies the impress, you subs, gets third. You know, he's always won this race by so much that I'm sure in his mind, I want to fly what I'm comfortable with and I will have an opportunity to make a move.

I always do, this will work out. And it'll be interesting because I saw Thomas Therlo, we were having pizza, uh, the night they were walking through St. Moritz, that really rainy night before the last day, and I remember him saying—this was years ago, but this is when they were still working together—that, you know, a true sign of a champion is to lose and come back. You know, so I'm sure that he will work very hard. You know, it was interesting; we just had the Eiger and Lars won that too, and Chrigel is fourth. You know, so, uh, you know, we haven't seen Chrigel not win in a really, really long time, and here he is, you know, fourth twice in the matter of in the span of a couple weeks. So, it'll be really interesting to see how the champion comes back, yeah.

He will come back like it's, uh, I mean, you, you don't forget this, this type of supremacy. You know, he's been there for so many years. I've, I've known him since, uh, his first race, you know, in 2009, was it? Or 2000? Yeah, 2009. And, um, he wants to go for the 10th Red Bull XL in 2027. So, um, he's going to come really well prepared, for sure. Um, I think that, um, what's interesting here is that, you know, it's a little bit like Formula One. If you want to beat the winners, you know, you have to come with a different approach. You have to try things, you know, and in a way, maybe he got too confident, or, you know, he thought, well, just not, let's not be, uh, you know, let's not take risk, you know, it's, it's gonna work.

Or, and, um, at the end of the day, that little difference made a difference. And I, and I know the feeling because I, you know, I've participated in the Excels many times, and twice I was flying a sea glider, um, with, uh, Gradient at the time. You know, Gradient had a D glider that was good, but then the sea glider came out. It was flying better.

I was, you know, it was impossible. Like, let's be honest, it was really hard to follow these guys. You would take off in the morning and I just on the morning glide, they'll go just above the hill and you'll get stuck, you know, um, and so it gets really frustrating when you realize it, but when you see it, um, and then it, it goes into your head, you know, um, and that's hard, that's really hard. And I remember two years ago when I was flying, um, down to one of the turnparks with Damien Lacazze, we left cloud base together and we were full speed bar next to each other for like 15 minutes and we landed at the end, we had exactly the same altitude, same everything. And then I thought, well, it cannot be that bad, you know, like I, my glider flies as much as is, you know, then, then you get that boost of confidence and you have no excuse anymore.

You're like, all right, now it's not the gear, we, we can do this, um, and, uh, and that, that's wonderful. But the other way around, when you fly behind someone and then see that the glide is better, the speed is better, you cannot follow, you cannot keep up, you're trying to thermal up and you, this, this breaks you down and this is, this is, it feels unfair, uh, it eats your head, like it, it just doesn't work. And, and then from there it's downhill, so the brains will be working hard

On that final day, you know, those guys all took off together in Laramoose. You know, not with Aaron. Aaron flew his own thing and he was out in front the whole way. But you know what, the story there, were many times in that flight where Chrigel was ahead and he came in behind them all. So, uh, you know, and that can be chalked up to a lot of different things. You know, I wasn't in this harness that day, but, but yeah, interesting. Well, okay, let's transition to what this was supposed to be about. Uh, and interestingly, I just had a little text yesterday with Hanza. You know, Hanza did it five times and, uh, his son's getting into it and his son had a crazy flight recently over Mount Whitney in California and got to 16.4. and I made a comment, Hey, maybe the, you know, maybe he's, we're going to see him in the X house one of these days.

And he said, ah, I think it's, we'll see. It'll be his, his decision. He's too young now, but you know, I think it's gotten too crazy. I think it's gotten too risky. And I sat back for a second on that and thought, I don't agree. And so, and here's why neither. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good. I, I think that, you know, day one, perfect example. This is a perfect example that I think is going to illustrate this whole thing. And those of you who are listening, you saw the hailstorm, you saw the lightning. If you were watching the race, crazy weather, uh, that was fault that followed really perfect weather. It couldn't have been a better first day. And most of them got to Sexton when it was still quite nice. Uh, and then as they were walking up to the Sexton turn point and the Via Ferrata, it got really gnarly.

And, uh, some of them were able to get up there seven or eight, were able to get to the top before Juergen, the safety director closed it down. And then we all sat in the hut for a couple hours, at least an hour and a half, and just a wild hailstorm, big, huge hail and tons of wind and tons of rain. And then it stopped pretty temporarily. You know, it stopped for not that much time, the whole mountains covered in hail and Aaron and, uh, Tangi, Lars, Chrigel, a couple others raced out. Chrigel led the way and just no hesitation whatsoever through their wings down on the ground, made it look really bad. I've never seen a Chrigel launch that was this bad.

It was, it was ugly. Um, but they got off. Uh, I think Lars ripped a bunch, ripped out his Stabilo trying to do it and then kind of fell over the cliff and got out of there. And then Simone and a couple others, looked and walked, they just walked down and it wasn't so much the, what was happening at the moment, but it was where they were flying into, you know, and this was all captured because there's all of us media people up there and we all caught it. And then they all ended up getting penalized. They got a three hour penalty, which didn't end up affecting things very much at all. But, uh, I don't have a problem with that call. You know, that there is a rule that they can penalize for risky behavior. And certainly, they were, this was not recreational flying, which XL rarely is.

But, uh, anyway, the, my point is when I was standing there watching them do this, I was asking myself, what would you do? What would you do right now? If you were in this race and it 100%, it wasn't, I don't know. It was, I would launch, you know, and you and I have done what they did dozens of times in our careers of this race. Um, you just, you don't hesitate and it's what you have to do. And my thought is because we're so heavily social media and we've got so many cameras out there and so many teams have their own media people now, uh, as you've had in the past and Paul Gushabower and, but most teams do they've got a media and everything is out there, you know, so it's just a very different media race than it was in 2015 and 2009.

Um, I think these risks have been taken all along. Um, but everybody's just seeing them more.

Totally agree with it. Like, um, with what you just said, um, I can recall moments in 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013, where people tell me stories or things I've seen by myself, you know, and I, I wasn't filming, we didn't have smartphone by then, you know, but, um, uh, that were even worse than that. Um, I remember training in 2011, flying in the room, you know, and I was like, to see if the glider would do well, you know, in heavy rain, we would, we would train flying in the rain, you know, and, and we would fly in the rain all the time. So it's, um, it's a difficult one because obviously now it goes out there, you know, and people share it and people talk about it and a lot of people comment it. And, and we are in this culture of everyone has a say, you know, everyone wants to say what it thinks about, you know, and so it all comes out like that, you know, and, and everyone has, uh, something to say about it.

Um, I agree with you. I think it was always like that. Um, but I still, and I, I would even say more than that. I think it was worse because imagine in 2007, Vincent Springley to just to give an example, he had a paragliding harness without back protection, zero back protection. It was like a string harness. Um, no cocoon, just a line. He's rescue parachute. I was with him when we made it, we built it ourselves. Um, um, at super, you know, with, uh, at the time, um, with, with the guys there, it was, it was not certified. It was the tiniest little rescue parachute. He made himself like the whole thing because we didn't have to have any certified helmets. We were flying with bike biking helmets, uh, like the lightest one you could find, you know, back protection was not mandatory.

Um, no rest, no, no rest 24 seven. We would, we would fly, you know, here and there. Like I remember, falling asleep, flying and hitting my face, you know, during the flight and then land. And people would say, what happened? What happened to your face? It was all red because I was just slapped myself to try to stay awake. Um, I remember falling asleep, hiking during the night and smashing my head on the, on the tarmac, you know? So it was more an adventure than what it was now, but I think it was necessary to come to the safest, like to make it safer somehow with certified gliders with, uh, um, uh, back protection, you know, these back protections and they saved a few people in the last few editions.

So now just, just to come back to this now, obviously it's everywhere. Everyone films it. Um, what doesn't help is that some people decide, no, some people are smart enough to decide not to fly. And some people are maybe a little bit more reckless and they go and fly in these conditions. And then that creates the debate. If everyone had, been flying down, then I guess maybe they would not have been any, um, penalty, you know, but then it creates a moment where you say, well, it's not fair for, for the people who are safe. Uh, it's dangerous. It's not a good example. And because it was the first day of the race and the whole thing was kind of messy with the via Ferrata in the tunnel storm and stuff.

I think they had to make a call. Now, when I look at the penalty time, let's be honest, as you just said, it, it didn't make a difference, like three hours, it's the time that they took to walk down, basically almost, you know? So that's a bit unfair if you, if you want, like, I would have said maybe minimum six hours or something, um, and to, and to really hit and to give an example. Um, so that's a difficult one and it comes down to the big debates behind it, which is, should we allow people to fly in these conditions? Should we allow them to make their own decisions? Um, and there, again, I think we, we'll agree, but it's very personal and, you know, it's also depends a little bit on the culture. When you hear someone from Switzerland or Germany, they'll say, yeah, we need some rules and we forbid everything.

When you hear someone from South America or the States or, or Belgium, like, uh, no, let's give freedom to the people, you know, and they can make their own choice. And I know it's not always a popular opinion, but I would always say we are adults. You know, we know what we signed for. We come, to the exhausts knowing what it's going to be about and you don't have, no one's forcing you to fly. You know, you can always say, Hey guys, I don't mind, you know, I'm not going to fly. The problem really hits you when you have the mentality of a winner and we're, when you're so competitive that you know, that your competitiveness will push you to do things that you don't really want to do. And that that's where the edge is. It's like where, where Maxime Pinot probably is not really comfortable with this.

Because he's, he's always been there to win. And one of a sudden you say, Hey man, you, you, you don't have to fly, but not flying would mean not winning for him. And so what's the point of it? And so that's, that's the dilemma, uh, of, of these athletes and they're on the top level. They're more than capable to win, but one of a sudden they say, well, life is more important. Um, and they're not sure, or they're not sure they can make that call and, uh, and then get into very dangerous situations. So. Yeah. I don't know, like people criticize the race and the organization and stuff, but it's an adventure race. Um, and every day, every time you go flying, every time you go on a, on a takeoff, you have to make that call. Do I fly today or, you know, or maybe I go home because there's a big thunderstorm coming and you make that call freely.

Um, here, okay. It's a competition and everyone is, you know, motivated and everyone wants to win, but, um, that doesn't mean you have to go and kill yourself, you know? So. I also,

I, I, I really, really don't want to move in the direction. You know, the world cup has been moving in this direction now for a long time. Martin shield would argue vehemently that, that there's more and more and more pressure being put on the organizers, on the meat director, on the task committee and less and less pressure on the pilots. In other words, uh, if there's a task, a pilot's going to fly it because they're dumb and they want the points. Um, and, and, and it must be safe because the meat director is allowing it to happen, you know, rather than the other way around, it's always your decision to step off the mountain every single time, no matter what, this is you and you alone. And it has to be that way. And we can't control for the lowest common denominator.

I mean, one thing that I think would make the rebel X-Alps safer is to have, is to not have athletes from other countries who don't, you know, who are getting in because they're from another country. And they're not, I mean, if you had only the best of the best 32 athletes, then it'd be mostly Swiss, mostly German, mostly French. Um, and you wouldn't have, there's a huge discrepancy in talent and ability and training and hours. And if you suddenly say, okay, we're not going to fly in X conditions, you're eliminating all that training that Chrigel and Damien and Maxime, and these, people are capable of flying in safely, you know? And so it just becomes a completely different race.

And I, I just always am very, very, uh, I find it abhorrent to put the weight of this issue on the organization. And to me, they're providing an incredible opportunity for a rare few people to really test their skills for themselves. I mean, that's what I love about this. Race and, and people will say, yeah, but there's the pressure and there's the media and there's the social media and there's the, you know, competition does that flat out world cup. There's no, there's nothing but glory. There's no money. And, you know, and we saw Timo, you know, it just, you're going to have an accident in this race. You know, people will say, well, what about when someone dies, it's going to change it all that could happen.

Of course, we've always known that could happen, but is that the organization's responsibility? I would vehemently argue. And that's not because I'm working for the organization. Now I would have argued this when I was an athlete that I'm just thankful that they put this on. Um, and it is, I believe most people are there to test what they're made of. Um, and some people are there to win of course. And, and, but the race environment is going to make you do dumb things. We've all done it. We all will continue to do it. That's just ego. Yeah. And not many of us are really that good at completely clamping down on our ego, especially in the heat of the moment. Uh, but we can't use the no death as a defense, but I do believe that we have the history to go, Hey, you know, um,

there's something about this that people are performing. And like you, we have, we've talked about not just today, but many times and together privately that this head, space you get in is really special and it's a kind of a protective bubble and it's not going to always, I'm not saying that this isn't going to happen. It, it almost feels inevitable. I'm not trying to, uh,

no, no, for sure. Like, let's be honest. And we we've lost friends and we, we know how it is. And it's, uh, but that, I mean, this, this freedom, you know, and this free flying

spirit. Um, and if you even think about, and it's arc, who was the one who started the race, you know, and, uh, yeah. The way he lived his life and the vision he had for this life, you know, was somehow extreme. And I am a little bit tired of saying that, you know, we, we tend to overprotect everything. Now we tend to overrule everything. You can do this, you can do that. You can do it. And I've traveled all around the world, you know, and I'm like, sometimes I feel like, okay, we're getting trapped here. We cannot take decisions for ourselves anymore. Like people will tell you what to do, what not to do, where to walk, where to eat, where to how to fly. And flying is one of these last places, you know, like we like sailing, for example, where no one is there to tell you, Hey, you have to tack now.

Oh, you have to go left or right. You know, like when you are in a car it's a red light, you stop, the police is there no more than 40 miles per hour, the, this and that. And you feel like we are living life where everything's been decided for us. Yeah. It's like, in a way, and we have not so many, you know, choices at the end. And, and flying offers that you can take off and say, "I'm going right," or "I'm going left," "I'm going a long distance," or "I'm not, um, I'm doing my own thing." I'm, I'm choosing my own options, you know? And this feeling, it's priceless, um, and it comes with responsibility. It's like base jumping, you know? I'm not a huge fan of base jumping, but I've done a few jumps, and the feeling you get when you jump, it's like you're taking responsibility, you know, that if you don't open your, your parachute, you're gonna smash your head down, like you're gonna crash and you're gonna die, you know?

But you're confident enough in, you know, in your skills and stuff, in your training, and you take that responsibility, and it feels amazing. I, I don't know how to explain it. You know, it feels special. Uh, it feels like you're living with intensity. Um, it maybe people will call me an adrenaline junkie or things like that. I don't think it's about that. It's more about, you know, really taking that decision of saying, "Hey, I'm taking responsibility. I'm going to be as safe as possible. I've trained for this. I've prepared, and now I'm capable of doing this, um, safely." In a way, that's also one of the, the, the angle of the debate that it's hard for people to grasp and to understand. But you just said it. It's like, I was on takeoff that day where there was a sketchy takeoff of, uh, Tanguy, of, uh, you know, the Brazilian guy and the Italian guy.

You know, like, I was there, so I saw it firsthand. And I saw Patrick taking off in the exact same conditions, and it was perfect. It was clean. I've seen that video; it's incredible easy, you know? And and I know him and some of the guys, they were safe, they were safe. Why is that? Because they have the skills. Like, I don't have the skills to jump, uh, you know, with skis, uh, you know, like a cliff, 30-meter cliff or something, but some people do, some people do. They've been trained for it, and they've been trained for it, and they've been trained all their life. And some people will say, "This is crazy, this is dangerous," but the community and the people who really know about it will say, "No, it's, it's manageable." And so, what, what do we do now? And it's like, and and this is, this is for me really frustrating when you know people that don't, they don't understand.

They see it and they're like, "This is dangerous." It's like, like today here, I was flying, uh, with the only other pilot here on the island. This is such a nice guy, but he's been On the local site, and he's scared of clouds, he's scared of wind, he's scared of lee side. And when I went out, you know, and I went into the lee a little bit, and then for me, totally fine, super extremely safe. I sent some photos flying, and then he calls me crazy. It's fun, you know? It's just that, listen, it's like, you're crazy. What? You hold your phone when you're flying? It's a comb glider, you're in the lee side, man. I've been doing this for 20 years, you know? And and that's what I said during the race also, is that you're extreme, it's all normal, you know? And it's and and we have to understand that guys like Chrigel, you know, when when people are going to work, he's going to fly, he's going to the mountains, he's training, he's flying, he knows how to deal with this.

And obviously, sometimes we go over the limit and we take some risk, and that's where we need to have a debate. Uh, it's like, okay, how can we make it safer so that people arrive at the race in their best mental state? And that's also why we decided to put more resting time, you know? The pilots, we were pushing for that because obviously, when when you're extremely tired, then your decision making is not as good. And then it's another type of problem because then you're just, you're not there to to to fly at your best level. So we got that. Now we can sleep a little bit more. Um, we we have bigger teams. We used to have only one supporter, that was basic. Like, I I remember days in 2007 where I would see my supporter just in the evening once, you know? I would I would queue at the shops to buy some food.

So it's, it's better now. It is getting better. The gear flying, so much better, so much safer, so much all the gears being checked.

and all the equipment's being checked, and there's a lot of things just in my time, just since 2015, that have changed for the better. And like you said, certified harnesses, certified helmets, certified wings, uh, you know, these are all great things. I, I, yeah, I, you know, like I said, you could, you could make there, you, there could be a kind of a qualifying, more of a flying event. Yeah, I mean, I think you could, you could smash the ability together a little bit more, um, that's for sure. You know, that would make it less interesting in a sense. You know, all the countries is, is great, um, you know, but it does, people are really pushing, you know, there's hike and fly races all around the world now, you know, and, and most people these days that get to the level of the Red Bull X-Alps have done several of these, you know, so they're, they're not coming in completely blind

And and they, that's this is the thing, let's just hit this head on. Uh, Will Gadd put up a great post, um, you know, during the race, taking this on as he always does, you know, very articulately, and was just questioning this. And in the comments down below, there was a comment that, "Yeah, but it's, it's setting the example. It's, you know, so and so sitting on launch and sees what Chrigel can do and thinks, 'Yeah, I can do that.'" Come on, that's just, it's just horseshit. I hate this argument. I, I just can't stand this one. You can't look at someone like Chrigel and go, "Yeah, I got that move." I mean, if anybody does, they're really short on this earth, you know? I don't ever look at Chrigel and go, "Yeah, I've got that move." You know, yeah, no.

What, what I think is like, more, this is a ridiculous argument, and I, when I keep hearing it over and over and over... again, that we're setting a bad example. This is, I don't think I can drive an F1 car because I want you

know, no, no, for sure. What I think the example one is ridiculous, and I agree with you. What I think is a little bit of, you know, what I'm concerned of is is the image of paragliding, not the example, the image of the sport, you know, which I, there I kind of understand. And and this is sad, you know, in a way, because this is what people want. They want to have collapses, they want to have extreme conditions, and sometimes like the people watching carnage.

That's true, and audiences want carnage or

You know, like basic, like let me give you one example because it's just quite funny, you know? During, during X-Alps, the the Rebel Adventure Team, which I work with them and stuff, and they said, "Hey Tom, let's make something about, you know, like a little TikTok video or Instagram about how to pee in the air, you know? Because why? Because that's what people want to see, you know?" So I'm like, "Okay, well, just let's do it, you know? Let's do it classy, because I'm kind of a classy guy, you know? I'm not just, just gonna take it out like in front of the camera or anything. But, but it's like, okay, let's, let's do something classy. Let's see where it goes." Well, a few weeks later, we have more than three million views on, on TikTok and almost two million views on Instagram, and it's like, "Why is that?" It's because that's what people want.

Um, and in a way, it saddens me a little bit because, you know, we go flying big lines in Pakistan and stuff that we don't get half of that coverage, you know? Like, but But, but that's what people want, and that's what people share, you know? And these videos of, of this guy taking off in shitting conditions, one of a sudden, it becomes the highlight of the X-Alps because that's what people share, you know? That's, that's where we have to be a little bit more careful. Um, but the organization is, in a way, like they used to have—we used to have a blog online, you know, so we could post directly to the website, and then someone will check if, if the content was good, and then we'll validate it. That's the way it's going to be, and that's the way it's going to be. We used to do so, they had a lot more control on the image, but now everyone posts, everyone has social media, you know?

Everyone is followed, and so it's very easy to, that it comes out, you know, it leaks out. It, it will, someone will be there to film it. Um, and that's where I think pilots, maybe indeed, we have a responsibility to give a good image of the sport, you know? And that's where the organization can do that by focusing more on the smart guys and, and give a voice to those who are safer, but that doesn't sell people.

to walk down

make a decision, but that doesn't sell so much when, when you are the toughest adventure race out there, and, and you want to be the toughest adventure, is you want carnage? I'm not saying the organization wants it, but still, they know it's what makes views, and, and, and so, and so, yeah.

and I mean, the audience of this just, yeah, take it easy, take a breath, sit back and understand how humanity works. I mean, this is, it's not like the organization's begging these athletes to go out and get gnarly, you know? That's not happening. It's just, but of course, this is what sells, and that, and that. But that's not to me an argument that, oh, well, look at how bad they are, you know? Again, they're just providing a platform. You and I both know we've been on both sides of this fence now. Um, you know how it, how it works, and that's, that's what sells. That's what you like, that's okay. And let me, totally honest with you, like, that's what F1 sells. Yeah, yeah, carnage

It's like, sometimes I'm like, I'm, I'm, it makes me sad because I read, uh, comments and obviously people will say, "Yeah, but it's not objective, you know? He's a rebel athlete and stuff like that." But I read things like, "Oh, rebel makes them take risk," or "rebel does this," or "rebel does." I'm like, "What a joke, you know?" Like, I'm, I'm 40 years old, I'm taking my own decisions, you know? Um, if I want to try to fly in these winds, you know, no one is pushing you, no one is asking you to do anything like that, you know? They're just trying to provide you

with the opportunity to do something

ever race and

We've got photographers following us around all over the place, you know? I mean, Will Gadd told me that was one of the first things he said when we were hiking up to our very first launch was, "Hey, I can tell you're an optimist and I don't like optimists, and these cameras are going to make you do stupid things, so stop doing it right now." Just wind it back. We got it. We don't have a film. If you don't make it, we got to make it. We got to be safe. Just forget about all that. But it's hard to forget about all that, you don't. Again, we're just humans, but I, I hate that we're trying to take away this from the athlete in a sense. You know that? And this parameter stuff is really ridiculous. The only time I thought, "Okay, that's pretty smart," I don't know if you remember this, but at the 2019 race, we were down at the Mozart Platts getting ready to start and it was blowing 50 kilometers an hour up on the Geisberg, and Christoph Weber, you know, the new, the old Ferdy, the race director came over to you and I, but mostly Chrigel, and he said, "Hey, what are we going to do?" And Chrigel, Chrigel said, I mean, because Chrigel could launch in 50k an hour, no problem, but he said, "If it's, if it's over 30, close the launch." And that to me makes sense because everybody's together and you've got 2,000 people watching and you've got the Red Bull helicopter and all that kind of thing.

That's just basic safety. Fine, if we get up there and it's honking, you decide wait or to goes below 30 or walk. You kind of a cool race situation, but from that point on there's so much spread that, yeah, I want to see Patrick von Cannell use those skills. I saw some of those launches that never went public, there's no beads that everybody saw that went crazy. I saw others that were really wild and you're going, "Yeah, okay, wild," but they handled it, you know? They and

Also, like, if you really think about it, like, technically speaking, how would you do, let's say that, uh, on the third day, you know, it's really strong, you can't do it, it's really strong wind on the third day, and you say, "We closed flying today," but maybe someone is 100 kilometer in the back and want to save himself from getting cut off the race, you know? And and it's not windy there, or there's a thunderstorm in Martini, and what do we do? We close it, uh, because there's thunderstorm, but there's one guy just went through and he's flying, just it's impossible. And then and then you get to situations like what happened on the via ferrata, where some of the guys went through and some of the guys got

That, that to me looked bad, uh, and and it wasn't fair. And so what happens? And it's, it's so frustrating for the athletes, you know, you're like, "Oh, why can he go and why can't I go?" And and I get stuck here. And then what? So it becomes, you know, you, you need to also think about, okay, what is actually doable and possible technically speaking? And and I think technically speaking, it's almost impossible to come with rules like that. You could, you could say, okay, well, as you said, first day, all right, maybe today we don't. Or you could say, um, if there's a thunderstorm, you know, we'll like... They should have probably stopped it before the people went on the via ferrata. That was a mistake and close it for everybody. Yeah, close it for everybody.

Uh, but these, but...

like you said, these things are really hard decision to make on the spot in, and I, I just hate the idea of somehow trying to control this aspect of the race. I think you lose way, way, way more than you gain, and I'm, yeah, people will argue, yeah, but you might save somebody's life. Um, valid, I guess, but I, I just, we, we lose to me, you're losing the heart and soul of what makes this race so special. You know, it's, it's a race, it's a competition, I mean

As you know, like, good, if you really want to save somebody's life, then you stop flying. You know, because at the end of the day, in every day's conditions, you can take

it, and you can take

risk, like you're flying from A to B, there's 100 kilometer to cover. There will be a valley with strong wind, there will be a lee side, there will be a big cloud, they will... it's we're dealing with this all the way, you know, like every day, cables, this and that, no landing zone. Um, so, so then what, you know, it's like paragliding can be a dangerous sport. It is, you know, if you don't, if

You don't stop flying, you know, but but it's risky and you can hurt yourself. And in every flight, like I've I've I've lost a friend who's flying on his local side like every other day, you know, because that can always happen. If if you make a little mistake, you can. So, what are we trying to do here? Do we do we want to, you know, give responsibility to pilots and say, "Okay guys, we believe in you. Um, be safe, try to make the best decisions for for yourself." Obviously, it's a race, but no pressure. And people have to have that maturity and be wise enough so that they can manage depending on their level. But if if you know, if you start putting rules, people—I mean, I would lose interest into it. Like, if they say, "Hey, tomorrow you're not flying because it's a bit too windy up there," and I see the options and I'm like, "Well, I could have done this and that." And then it doesn't really make sense anymore.

And and we are there to show what's possible and trying to push the boundaries of the sport and to push our own boundaries. Um and but I totally agree with you. I think selection is one of the big thing. We could also do more mental coaching, you know, like before the race, like try to get some workshop with the athletes and say, "Hey guys, let's think about this together. Let's let's try to, you know, maybe think about some situations, uh, some decision making, you know, things like that." I think that'd be interesting, like run some simulations, kind of thing. Yeah, we could we could have more people around, you know, like

Responsible for that, like you could have people say, "Hey, he took off in the in heavy rain," or "He took off in a thunderstorm." I was there, I saw it, and then have a proper way of putting a penalty somehow. Yeah, maybe small ones, you know, but having to, having to say, "No one flies today," or things like that. That's a bit rough, and you know, it's if you look at the Vendée Globe, I—I love this example, you know, it's um, they go around the world for like 90 days, um, and they go in gnarly conditions, you know, like they can, and you decide, "I go north, or I go south, I go uh west, or I go east," depending on where the weather is and stuff. And I had this little conversation with with Max, and Max says, "No, it's it's not a it's not a real argument," because in a way they are safe in their boat.

And I said, "Well, tell that to Kevin Escotier when his boat broke in two pieces." You know, it's like it's not so safe. You're so far away, but you're you're making your own decisions, and um, you you decide what what you want to do. And I think, uh, at the end of the day, that's um, that's your own responsibility, um, and and this beautiful platform, you go around the world, and then there's the one the one guys who want to win, and they have these beautiful amazing boats and stuff, brand new, and they go for the win, and the others go for the adventure. And that's where we could maybe put these guys in the spotlights a little bit more, um, the people who go for the adventure, you know, and try to speak more about the adventure highlight.

the adventure side, I mean, I—I think I like where you're going with this because I—there is, I think, there is a valid argument. What I kept hearing was, "It's for gladiators, now it's not for adventurers," now. And that, I think, the organization can—and by that, I mean people like me that are filming this and and telling the story, uh, you know, my hope when I got brought on the team for the last one in '23 was, you know, we always cover the leaders really well, let's cover everybody else totally. I was always, everybody else, you know, there's—there's—there's a fascinating race going on from 5 to 30, you know, um, and let's tell those stories. Celine, perfect example of that. This year, when she landed down in the—I mean, what an epic day!

And, you know, when she said, "Ah, that was so fucked," but I mean, that's what this race is all about to me. That was so cool and a beautiful

personality and and you know, again, you go back to the von der globe and you see, uh, violet orange, who's super young and she did the race and she's followed by millions of people now because everyone loves her, you know, and and that's when you call it the most extreme adventure race on, you know, the adventure side still needs to be there. And one thing that I, I, I wanted to know what you think about it, but it's like I also think that having so many turn points change the essence of the race too and somehow are putting people more at risk too for two reasons. The first one is that you put a turn point in Saint Moritz, uh, you know, where we know every day is 45 kilometer per hour wind, you know, and people will have to land there and sign the signboard.

So that's, that's for me doesn't really make sense, that's a dangerous, um, approach to it, uh, that's one thing. But the other thing is that also we used to race without pressure because no one really knew what options was the best until the end. What I mean here is that if you have three or four turn points, then you like, okay, some of the guys went north and some of the guys went south and we will only know in four or five days who was right. When there is so many turn points, everyone is racing on the rail, you know, and you always know where you stand, like he's in front, he's in the back, he's faster, I'm slower, and you kind of get stressed with it a little bit more, you know, when before the guys would go north and then some would go south and then six days later

You know, the next turn point was the best one, and everyone was kind of looking at it. And, and who is going to make it first out? But the pressure was not so hard, you know, the pressure of getting to the next turn point in front of the other, the pressure to land, uh, in in shitty places and stuff. And I think I'm personally, but I know you're there too, like I would love to see a race with zero turn points. Like, let's go from Salzburg to Mont Blanc, Mont Blanc to the first XL. 2003 was only one turn point in Verbier, Salzburg to Verbier, yeah, Verbier. And then, then it was Mont Blanc and to Monaco. It's beautiful because then it gives you creativity. It gives, like, people can make their own decisions. Um, you can go, you know, and and it was really interesting.

Now it's, uh, it's a race on a track, and it takes away also the adventure side of it a little bit. That's, that's very personal, I understand that. We need turn points, it also some partners for the race to give support to the organization and stuff, but I think it has some side effects too. Yeah, yeah.

Now, no, now we're into something that's personally, I think, uh, really interesting and something I'm really passionate about. And one of the reasons, frankly, I lost some interest in the race because, you know, when we think back, when I think back to my first one—still my best day in all my campaigns—was Bell and Zone into the Matterhorn, because I flew a line that no one else flew, and I went from eight

That day, um, and you don't see moves done like that very often anymore because you can't, you know, I always think of Nick Neynens when you say this, least less turn. There was one year, I don't remember, it was 2015 or 2017, he just went in like outer space, where is he going? He went so far north and made it work, you know, with his big block of cheese and his mom and, uh, you know, I and we've lost that creativity. Um, it was beautiful, it was beautiful. When you have the longer distances, I mean, the classic would be in 21 when Maxime and Chrigel landed within kilometers of one another down by Visp, and Maxime went south and Chrigel went north, and Chrigel had an epic and just crushed the race and won, like he always did, uh, by a huge distance, you know?

So you've got Maxime, best pilot in the world, and with all the same tools and faster on the ground and better in the air, and you know, it's and from a technical standpoint, for sure, and Chrigel just crushed him, uh, you know, and that was, but that leg to his paloo or whatever it was that year was huge, was long, and it allowed, yeah, right, uh, and it allowed moves like that. So I, I think from an adventure standpoint and just race interest, spectator standpoint, and certainly athlete standpoint, removing turn points gets a lot more interesting, yeah, and like you said, and safer. I mean, we had

Um, well, certainly Patrick, but von, uh, sorry, uh, Harvey Collard, but there were, I think, a couple others because of the demanding top landings, you know, where's was the ankle injuries this year, man? Well, maybe that, maybe it was only Patrick, because Jean and Gabe's, Gabe's was taken off, Jean was just, you know, uh, decision in the air at St. Moritz. But yeah, I mean, you know, the more we put people on the ground, the higher the risk it is, for sure. Yeah, it's like

It's the only, the last centimeter that hurts, as we say. You know, it's when you get really close to the... to the ground. So, and, and yeah, I really think like, and plus people are rushing, you know? They know, okay, I have the glide, so I'm on full speed bar because I'm getting there, you know? And, and so it's more dangerous. And I remember the good old times in 2007 where we would enter a valley and then I would say, "I think it's this way," you know? And, and a competitor would say, "No, I think it's this way," you know? And we're like, "All right, let's take"

a look at it, and then we're like, "Oh my god, it's like a"

minute to try to understand because, you know, and it's just, it was an adventure, you know. We, we, we didn't have smartphones. We didn't have, uh, you couldn't send your position, you know? Like, my supporter needed to find internet into a tourism office or something like that to get connected, to find a wi-fi, and then to go on the website and see where I was, and I would call him and say, "Hey, I'm gonna meet you at the church there," you know? Or leave some, you know, some of my gear.

It was something, you know, and and it also allowed people like like me and others to to race, obviously, but maybe the pace was not so aggressive, um, yeah, because everyone needed some slack, you know? Like we we would agree on something, you know, like together, it was like, okay, we're racing, we're pushing, but hey, um, we still need to sleep, because we we had to take that decision too. It's like it was 24/7, so we would decide when to sleep and when not to sleep, and then we would kind of agree on things like that. Like we would call each other and say, hey, when you go to sleep tonight, well, let's let's all, you know, get a proper night, because tomorrow it's a heavy day, you know? So we would we would trade like this a little bit, you know, between athletes and stuff.

We we would wait for each other, like I would I remember so many, like the first years, I I worked a lot with Michael Gabbert, who's a great friend, Vincent Sprungley, Julian Weir. If I was four or five kilometers in front, I'll just sit on a bench and wait for him to come, because we would be stronger together, you know? This, you don't see that happening anymore, like no, people are like full on. So the intensity also came with the social media pressure kind of thing, you know, where people are filming, people are communicating leaderboard. You want to give your best, you know, your life tracking is at the time like 2007, the life tracking will fail for half a day, you know? So what, it was frustrating because you'll get messages, yeah, people will send you messages like, why are you resting?

And you'll be walking all day, you know? And people will say, why, why are you sitting, you know? Like, move, move, move on, keep going, keep pushing. And so, but but it was a little bit less pressure if I can put it that way, you know? And and so it's true that the pressure puts you in places, you know, like, uh, in sometimes complicated places. That's where I think we should think of how we can prepare the athletes better. I think a selection process is is a good idea, um, in in sailing community, for example, um, in the sailing races, for example, for the for the Vendée Globe, this is, uh, again, uh, for these racer around the world, they you can only participate if you've done a certain amount of kilometers or nautical miles in certain competitions.

So you could totally say, hey, you want to make you want to be part of the exiles, well, in the last two or three years, you need to participate to as many race and maybe finish as many and cover this type of distance. So you you you make sure that people gather the right experience and and went through that, you know? And then you know, okay, because it's hard, like it's very subjective. People call each other, I've had some calls from from the race director and stuff, hey, what, who do you think could, what do you think about this guy and this guy? And it's like it's difficult, uh, you don't know, like sometimes, uh, people say they've flown 200 kilometers, but you know who knows really? So it's, uh, I think it's it's interesting to to try to think more about the the that process, uh, for sure, more of a

qualifier. Yeah, yeah, I... I think that would really help. Yeah, I mean, I... the turn point thing is, you know, we're... I think we're spot on there. It's hard to imagine much change there because we know that that's how a big way that things are being funded. Um, no, but hey, you know...

What, like, I've, as you know, you know some, some things, uh, went great during this edition, and I think it was one of the most beautiful edition to follow, but also something didn't go to plan, like, uh, and, and it's technical problems, you know, the life tracking was maybe not delivering us as it used to. So, here I know from, and you probably know too, from the organizers and also from, from the sponsors, um, and Rebel in particular, everyone's working hard to fix this, you know, like, it's not like they, they want to keep it this way; everyone is striving for the, you know, for perfection. So, everyone's trying to make it better for 2027, um, which means that we have an opportunity now to really think about how, you know, how do we want this race?

Where do we, where do we want it to go? You know, what if, if you were to steer that boat, you know, where, where do we take it from here? What, what are the learnings, and what can we, you know, what can, like, objective, positive, constructive feedback can we get? And what, I sometimes, what frustrates me sometimes is that it's not always, uh, like it looks, you know, like people tend to be very critical, especially on social media, especially When their identity is not totally revealed, you know, and you hear all kind of crap, but if you're not there, if you're not in the organization, or if you're not in in the race, or if you're not one of the pilots, you know, it's really hard to have a a proper opinion,

really. Um, and and I think people should criticize less and try to be more constructive and and think, okay, well now we have a chance to make it better, so how do we want it to look? And it's it's going to be a conversation with the pilots. Um, we will listen to the community, the sponsors, the organizer, the pilots. We have to give a voice to everyone, and we have to get around the table and fix this. And we need an amazing life tracking system. We need a very clear, uh, vision for 2027. Um, we need to work on some of the technical aspects because it's always been very technical. Like, imagine the first race, you know, we would—the organizer, the organizers, they will make one film, that was the main objective.

So they'll have time, a professional team, helicopters around, and stuff. But now it's all about social media, and social media need to be fast. You need deliver every day. It needs to be live. It's technical. I mean, you know it, it's extremely technical. Either you have massive budgets, really big, big budgets, and then you can make it happen, or—and it's still paragliding, it's not soccer, it's not American food, like, you know. So we we're still trying to do a lot with limited means at the end of the day, you know. Um, and it was great all together, I mean, but you know, if you want to do it properly, you need a producer, you need a big team, you need cameraman, or like I would see Tarquin filming himself, you know, trying to do the settings

about what he has to say, you know? And then jump in his car and drive for six hours to get to the next turn point, you know? And be ready and stuff. It's—it's amazing what you guys been doing, but it's madness. We know it's madness. And and so, and people see it and they're like, "Oh, uh, he turned his camera on and he forgot about it," or things like that. And then, but they don't realize how much work goes into this. It's very easy to be critical, but it's not so easy to—to deliver. Like, like you guys, now, if we want to make it better, and we will, it's—it's—it's more about, um, you know, having the right people in the right tools and see, "Okay, we could have done that better. All right, let's get another cameraman," or "Let's do this," or "Let's do that." But at the end of the day, it's all going to be about money.

Uh, for a platform like this to really work, you need—you need cash, you need money. Um, and it—and it's not Formula One, you know? And you—and you cannot—you cannot expect, uh, you know, the outcome Um, you know, try to drive to survive, you know, like the the Netflix, uh, with with a paragliding event. It's, we would love it to be like this, but it's, it's still okay. It's called the Rebel Exiles, and Rebel is global, but it's still a paragliding event. Um, and and most of these paragliding events, if you look at it, it's people working for free, you know, not in the Exiles, but I mean most of the races, people are doing it for the fun of it. Like, if you go to the pier, um, it's, it's some passionate guys that do it, you know, and just want to help and stuff.

And um, and it's amazing, it's wonderful, uh, but it's not perfect either, you know. It's, it's, it's difficult. So yeah, I really think 2027 could be a, a massive, uh, really like a massive success, but we, we need to, yeah, to find a little bit more clarity right now. I think, yeah.

I agree, and I mean, I think you know, if you're listening to the podcast and you're a fan of the race and you know, you're spectator, you know, take these words to heart. You know, the, the, the, the feedback is wonderful. The, the, the really nasty social media criticism, you know, there are people that take that stuff pretty, you know, they're sensitive to that. And, uh, you know, I, I can say, because I run events, you get to a point where you just go, you know, what, this isn't worth it. And, uh, yeah, you know, it's an amazing race. You know, Ulrich's got thick skin. Uh, you know, I, I really appreciate what he and his team, which is huge, are able to, to do. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I think all the bitching is, could we could use less bitching?

Yeah, that's wonderful. The bitching needs

to be, it's, it's democracy, you know, it needs to be an open conversation where the pilots are defending themselves and, obviously, they're not going to like everything about the organization. The organization is doing its thing, you know, and has his own objectives, uh, the sponsors, you know, they have a vision, you know, and everyone has a little bit of a slightly different way of seeing things, which is totally understood, like, and yeah, promises are being made, you know, you need to deliver, there's the pressure, um, and it's the same, like, and then there's the cultural aspect, there's so many things that comes into play, um, and again, most of the time it's not, things are not what they seem to be, you know, like, it's we all see things through our

You know, and we tend to interpret and say, "Hey, oh, he meant that. Oh, that's what he wanted to say," or he probably did this on purpose, uh, and when you start, you know, if you only scratch the surface, then okay, that's what you see. But if you really dig down, like, I've heard so many things about Maxime situation, or Tim Alonghi, and stuff, and I know them well, and I know what happened, and I, I heard it from them, you know, and, and I know that most of the things you read out there, it's just not true. It's not what happened, and so at the end of the day, I'm like, "All right, guys, let's, let's, you know, take a step back, relax a little bit," because some of you guys, they're like, some of these guys, they are behind the computer, and they, they love to have a something to say about things, but you know, they just, they just don't really know.

They, they weren't there, and even if you were there, it's not even easy to, so let's just, it's complicated, stay humble, you know.

I think that everyone wants to work in the same direction, which is trying to make the best even possible where everyone feels respected, uh, where the athletes feels that they, they are listened to, like the people are understand and and that the the race is there also for them, um, and it's, it's where it's complicated because when there is money involved and sponsors and stuff, then people tend to think, "Oh, they're making millions," but this is not the reality, uh, as we know. So yeah,

Yeah, Tom, your treasure is all the time always, uh, fantastic to catch up with you. It was great, kind of working together. We were kind of working together on this one. I, I hope that, uh, well, I know you're gonna be racing the next time, but I'd sure love to do more of that with you, either at the xelps or in other. I hope you're gonna be racing too. Oh, man.

man, but I mean like my family

gets their way there, I will you

know what, like I, I really thought about it, like I, I think I want to be racing in two years, but let's, let's, let's see. Let's say this way, like if my foot is not perfect, or if I cannot really go for 100 kilometer and stuff, I would love to pray to play a real role in this, you know, because I really enjoyed it, and I think you guys had a wonderful team with Darkwing and stuff. So, um, yeah, I, for some reason, I, I want to be part of this adventure, you know? Yeah, whatever it is, maybe one day. That's how I feel, you know, I just

I just, I like, you said it's just, it's kind of my family and yeah, just I'm so grateful. I mean, you saw every time you saw me, you know? It's exhausting, it's really hard work, and it's so fun. I mean, I just love, I love all of it. It was just such a good time, so I, I don't know how what iteration I'll be a next time, an athlete or, or doing what I do, but I sure like it, you know? Whatever iteration it is, it'll be, yeah.

I'm, I'm thinking like, maybe next time I do it, if I can do it as an athlete, it will be cool to close the loop. I think the next time I would like to be a supporter, you know, and and and maybe for, for a rookie or for someone like John the bla or whoever thinks that I could help, you know, because I think that would be a very cool experience to manage a team and and try to help, um, and then maybe into the organization kind of thing, maybe help Ferdi or, you know, be there, uh, for the pilots. And I, I think that's a little bit what has been missing, you know, so

I think that's a little bit

Since, uh, Anisak died, you know, I—I remember him coming before the start and gathering everyone together, and he had his, you know, really nice words for—for the pilots, and people felt like they were listened to. Um, I remember him one day landing on his helicopter, with his helicopter on the road just in front of me. I was running, came out there, he came out barefoot out of his, uh, helicopter, uh, you know, in the t-shirt. It's like, "Tom, this is amazing, really cool. How do you feel? How are you?" And he—he walked for like half a kilometer with me. He was barefoot, and then jumped back into his helicopter, took off, and went. It was—it was incredible, man. He was magic. It was—we had—he was that connection to the athletes in a way, and I feel that now.

We kind of need that, um, again, um, but—but yeah.

Well, you would be a perfect person for that. I mean, you, you and I—this is a different subject, but it's, you know, like the withdrawal thing. Um, we saw it multiple times this race, and it breaks my heart, you know, when, when people just quit and withdraw. If you hurt, different story, you know? If the medical team comes around and pulls you out, that's a different story. But, you know, I know there's a credo to this race that, uh, you know, when you, if you're, if you, if you're gonna quit, fine, but sit down, just stay there, go grab a beer at the pub. You know, don't withdraw from the race because it's going to eliminate if something's

going to happen to you. You're going to have to do something about it. You're

Somebody's behind you; they're going to get eliminated, and they very well might want to keep racing. Most of them do, yeah. Um, and so, and we saw that multiple times in this one, and that breaks my heart. And I think that's where, you know, we didn't have you. You were always the one that stood up, you know, in that pre-race week and said, "Hey everybody, all you rookies, you know, you may not know this, but this is how this works, and this is important, and everybody here has been training really hard for a long time, and things sometimes don't, don't go your way, and you find yourself in last." And, uh, you know, but I'm—when Laurie did that to me and Fish, you know, because I was on the chopping block in 21, you know, it was such a—it was just, I looked into her eyes, you know, she had a pretty severe fear injury, she was done.

But she called me about an hour before that and said, "Hey, don't worry about it. I'm, I'm not, you know, I'm gonna withdraw, but you're gonna get past me, and we'll do it after you go, you know, you're in the clear." Yeah. Ah, it was a special moment, yeah, for both of us. You know, it's, it's just, you're right, and we span, we saw it over and over again this time. Uh, people just land and they're not in the right frame of mind; they probably have lost the plot a little bit. I'm out, you know, they call the race director and they're out, and they don't think about the other people in the race, not

only that I think it's, I think they, they have their reasons, you know, and it's hard to really judge or anything, but I send a message to, to the guys, you know, um, when Max, uh, we throw and I, I put a message out there on the group saying, "Hey guys, um, you know, it would have been nice to," and then Max called me and said, "Man, I'm sorry, I, I didn't think about it." Like he was, of course, he just, he didn't even think about it, and was like, "No, you don't have to be sorry, that's okay, that's done now." You know, um, yeah, but yeah, I, I think sometimes I find it's cool when, when we can, as, as a group, you know, we can agree on some things like the gentleman agreements, you know, um, we have that fair play and that respect between you

know the

athletes, you know that somehow I think the older generation needs to show it to the younger generation. That's how we do things here, yeah? That's how we respect each other, that, that's how we listen to each other. It, okay, it's a race, but it's not like you can throw anything at anyone, like you just have to be respectful. And it's like to the france the other day, you know, uh, Jonas, um, falls down, and then the rest of the group waits. You know, they wait a little bit because he, they know it can happen to them too, you know? And so they're like, "Oh, he'll return the favor at some stage," but it's so much nicer than just say, "Hey, fuck it, I'm, I'm just gone," and I don't listen to it. It's just sportsmanship.

It's just kindness, and we need to respect

But you need to cultivate this, you know, when when we had only one supporter, um, I remember somehow it was a deal where, you know, a team will always propose food to you, like a team will pass stop and say, "Hey, you need anything? You need water? You need food?" "Oh yeah, I love a little chocolate or something." And boom, they will throw something at you. It will be a French team, a Spanish team, an American team, and we would help each other all the time, you know? Um, now that we have massive teams, you know, we don't do that anymore. But, uh, yeah. Oh, look, he's here.

Yeah, that's quite a special side. Ah, look at that! Hello, hello, little one.

My little one is here.

and

I should get back to my little one. Well, Tom, thank you very much. Uh, like I said, you're—you're a treasure, man. I appreciate it. It was fun working with you. No, thank you so much. Good stuff there. And yeah, it's good stuff. Thank

you so much for for your time and um, yeah, again, we'll we'll talk, we'll uh, we'll stay in touch and we'll see each other, I hope, before 2027. Let's go on an adventure or something.

Yes, please. Yes, excellent, wonderful.

All right, you take care and all the best to you, huh? Cheers, man. You too, bud. Ciao, ciao, bye. If

You find the Cloudbase Mayhem valuable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. You can give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher, or however you get your podcast; that goes a long ways and helps spread the word. You can blog about it on your own website or share it on social media. You can talk about it on the way out to launch with your pilot friends; I know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way. And of course, you can support us financially. This show does take a lot of time, a lot of editing, a lot of storage and music, and all kinds of behind-the-scenes cost. So, if you can support us financially, all we've ever asked for is a buck a show, and you can do that through a one-time donation, and we'll see you next time, bye-bye. PayPal, or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out. We put a new show out every two weeks, so for example, if you did a buck a show and every two weeks, it'd be about 25 a year, so way cheaper than a magazine subscription, and it makes all of this possible.

I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors. We get asked about that pretty frequently, but I, for a whole bunch of different reasons, which I've said many times on the show, I don't want to do that. I don't like having that stuff at the front of the show, and I also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people, and these are just our opinions, but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars. I think that's a pretty toxic Business model, so I hope you dig that. Um, you can support us if you go to cloudbasemayhem.com. You can find the places to support. You can do it through patreon.com forward slash Cloudbase Mayhem, if you want a recurring subscription, you can also do that directly through the website. We've tried to make it really easy, and that will give you access to all the bonus material, a little video cast that we do, and extra little, uh, nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show, but we feel like you should hear.

We don't put any of that behind a paywall. If you can't afford to support us, then just let me know, and I'll set you up with an account. Of course, that'll be lifetime, and hopefully, and you're being in a position someday to be able to support us, but you'll find all that on the website. Uh, all of you who have supported us, or even joined our newsletter, or bought Cloudbase Mayhem merch, and dice, t-shirts, or hats, or anything, you should be all set up. You should have an account, and you should be able to access all that bonus material now. Thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate your support, and we'll see you on the next show. Thank you.