Hi
there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Got a lot of fun things to talk about before we get into this show with the great expeditioner, Antoine Girard. I don't know if that's even a word, but that's certainly what he does a lot of. We just wrapped up the X-Lost here in Idaho. It was the first hike and fly race that's ever gone down here. We held it over in the Lost Rivers. King Mountain Glider Park was our base, which has become quite a thing the last few years. We've really seen a resurgence in that legendary place, and we brought a bunch of people over. We had the three different divisions, like we do with the X-Rad Rockstown in Utah, Challenge, Adventure, and Pro. I got to race, which was unique, because you don't get to do those in these kind of races.
But it was a scavenger hunt where you go out and grab points. You can get them on the ground or in the air. We put waypoints all over the place, and I have never seen the Big Lost in that zone session like it was. It was super inspiring. It was fun. The conditions were amazing. We've had the most incredible spring of flying over here in this neck of the woods I think I've ever seen in a lot of time here. So usually spring might be good, or May might be good for a couple days, and they're pretty rowdy and pretty sharp. It's strong, but we've had, I think, Matt Bieschner. He set the out-and-back Idaho record during the comp. Anyway, it was a ton of fun, and what was kind of cool about it is we were waiting on Antoine Girard to come through.
He started at the Mexico border and is heading up and basically finishing where Will Gadd and I started, the Rockies Traverse, at the north end of the Canadian Rockies chain. His route is very much the same as Will and I took, but he's going south to north. We went north to south, and all the U.S. pilots. And I'm sure pilots from around the world have been tracking him with a lot of excitement, and he had a huge flight one day in Nevada, just about 300K, and he's got a supporter and a photographer with him, and so they were driving at times where it wasn't flyable, but now that he's gotten in here to Idaho, he got to my town here in Haley the last day of the X-Lost.
It wasn't flyable that day. It was really windy and lots of OD. So I invited him to come over to the house and have dinner and hang out and get a sleep and a shower and all that and meet his photographer, Rodolph, and we banged out a podcast to find out how it's been going, and I took questions from you, the audience. You saw that post on Instagram, so some of you fired away some really good questions about his gear and mindset and how he prepares for these and a lot of other things. So when I knew Antoine... Antoine spent more time with him in the 2015 and 17 and 2019 X-Alps. Those were his last three. He's done it four times. His first was in 2013. We talk quite a bit about the X-Alps in this show, but his English was pretty minimal, and it was kind of hard to communicate with him because my French is also nothing, but his English has gotten a lot better.
He's been hanging out with Vessel a lot over in Pakistan and, of course, this trip. He's very articulate about all these things, and I've been wanting to get Antoine on the show for a long time just because he is getting after it like no one else in the world, especially when it comes to just really deep, long lines, and I really wanted to talk to him about risk. He's not totally a spring chicken anymore. He's 45, so he's closing in on when I am, and so I wanted to talk to him about all that, just how things change as you get older and how he's funding it. I'm sure we'll get to that. We haven't gotten into that, but I was curious about that. We asked him outside of the show, but anyway, very interesting character, willing to take a ton of risk, enjoy
this talk with Antoine, and just before we get into it, I leave Sunday. I'll be gone by the time this goes out, but I'm heading out here in just a couple days to Austria to do my journalist gig and live stuff with the Red Bull X-Alps. So this will drop before the race starts, but I wanted to just let you all know that we've got a new channel. It's a WhatsApp group that you can join in on. You'll be able to find the link for it at Red Bull X-Alps.com, where we'll be putting in a lot of the behind-the-scenes stuff between Tarquin and I and some of the others on the team. It's what we're doing and why and visiting with the teams, and so Tarquin and I will be live a couple times a day. I've got really bomber flying kit this time around and great microphones.
So I think our live coverage, especially from the air, is going to be a lot better than it was last time. We've all got star links, too, because we're really struggling with connection last time and Wi-Fi and cell data and stuff. So I think we've got a lot of things covered, and so I'll be there a couple days before the prologue and just dial all that in. And then hopefully if it's flyable, the weather's not looking real great right now, but if it's flyable, I'll be flying the entire prologue with all the athletes and trying to bring you as much as we possibly can.
So I'm sure you're like me, getting pretty excited for the world's coolest and toughest adventure race. This is the hardest course yet by far. It'll be pretty interesting to see how it all goes down. But enjoy this talk with Antoine, and we're going to try. We'll see how this works out, but I'm going to try to drop this one early to all of our subscribers, to everybody on Patreon and whoever subscribes through the website. And as always, all we ask for is a bucket show. And if you can't... Support the show, just let me know. Zip me an email, and I'll make you a subscriber for life. No questions asked. Maybe someday you can. But way less than a magazine subscription in a year, and hopefully a lot of content to make you all safer, have more fun.
Thanks a lot for listening, and enjoy this talk with Antoine and CEO in the Alps. Cheers.
Antoine, welcome to Idaho. Hello. Hello.
We just wrapped up the X-Lost, this little hike and fly race that I organized today. And I've been watching your live tracking since you started only about 10 days ago down at the border with Mexico. You've covered a lot of ground. And what are you calling this expedition? What is... What's the name for this one?
I don't have a name. It's just I enjoy the trip, so I don't decide.
I mean, I know everybody on this side of the pond, we say that. You know, on this side of the Atlantic, they've been very excited to see you play here in North America. You've been doing... I think you've had four seasons now, right, in Pakistan. And you did the X-Alps four times. You live in France, obviously. But what was the inspiration to come here? And what was the inspiration for this line? It's a big line.
Yes, it's a big line. But it's just I was... There's a lot of places in the world, and it's difficult to find a line. Because if I want to go on a line, it will be a big line. If I don't have 800 or 1,000 kilometers, I don't move. I don't take a plane for that because I would like to do a new big line. And now it's difficult to find a new one. So...
But it's a long line. And I just would like to enjoy the trip and the landscape and everything. And I don't know the... North of America. So I decided to come this year to try this line. It's 3,000 kilometers.
In your background, I didn't know this until we were having dinner, sitting here. But your background is climbing, mountaineering. Before climbing?
Yes, before. At the beginning, I was a climber. I did a couple of years of climbing World Cup. After, I climbed a lot in the mountains. I tried to... To climb for 8,000 meters. And after that, I do some paragliding.
Yeah. You said 2007, you started? Paragliding, yes. Yeah. We started about the same time then. I was asking you if this is dinner, so now I know the answer. But when I first started running across you, I watched, of course, the 2013 X-Alps. I mean, I watched them before that too. But you and I raced together in 2015. 2017, 2019.
But I heard a story then that you were flying 800 hours a year. Is that right?
Yes. I think after 2009 and 2010, I flew a lot. And yes, 800 hours per year, it's totally possible. That's amazing.
That's a lot of hours. Was there a mission behind that kind of hours? Were you training for something? Because this was before X-Alps. Was this just... You were just that passionate about it? You just wanted to...
Yes, at the beginning. Just... Because in 2007, I began paragliding. And it was just down from the mountain. It's not for paragliding. And in 2009, I understand it's possible to do some big things with a glider. So I need to learn a lot. And at this moment, I decide to be not the best. But I would like to do... To do my best to be strong with my glider. And I learn only alone. And not with a teacher. And it takes a long time to understand.
You were self-taught? Yes. Really? Yes. Oh, wow. And this is in Valais? What? Where you live?
Close to Valais, yes. It's close to the Alps. Okay.
So you're mostly flying around home. Yes. At this
point. Exactly. And
when did you decide to do the 2013 race? And had you done other hike and fly races before then? Only
one. Okay. In 2011, I did a race. The name is Air Tour in France. Yeah. And I won this Air Tour. And after that, it was my first competition. Just before I flew alone in my town. And it's just that. And okay, I win this competition. And we have a lot of strong pilots. So I decided to apply for X-Alps. Mm-hmm. Two years. Two years after, because it was 2013. And I have a selection. And I did my first X-Alp in 2013.
When would you consider, what year would you consider? I mean, I know you still teach. You teach at university in computer science. Has that been, have you maintained that all these years? Or have there been times where it's just been paragliding? I
know. For me, the sport, like climbing, like mountaineering, like paragliding, it's not to have money, just to enjoy the life. So for me, I split the both. But after 2014, I decided to work only half-time in university and half-time for paragliding.
Ah, okay. Those years of the X-Alps, were you also doing the stuff that you've been doing, in the last few years, these big expeditions, big lines? Was it X-Alps one year, and then the big lines in between?
Yes, exactly. Because at this moment, I work with Adidas. It's my main sponsor at this moment. And for them, it was very important. I did all the X-Alps. So I decided to do one year X-Alps, one year a big expedition, and another year X-Alps. And after that, I understand that the expedition is, maybe it's more important. for them than the X-Alps. Because the X-Alps, you have a focus only for one month, but with a big expedition, you have a focus for one year, and you have a lot of view and everything. So they, they tell, okay, you can do only a expedition.
Ah, really? Yes. Are they still, are they still a big sponsor? Is it what? Adidas? Are you still working on that? No, no, no.
Uh, I finished, uh, Adidas in 2019, I think, something like that. Okay. Uh, because they stopped with. A lot of athletes because they, they changed the strategy and to push the Olympic sport and, uh, it's why they stopped with, uh, paragliding.
Huh? Interesting. 2013, 2015 went really well for you. Uh, and then right. And then 2017, you had the crash. Exactly. Yeah. And you hurt
your leg. Yes. I break my, uh, knee. Yeah. And
that's, we were talking earlier. That's still impacts you. That's been an ongoing
problem. It's difficult to, because, uh, because it was during the X-Alps. So I stopped the X-Alp, uh, in 2017 and in 2019, I try again, the X-Alps, uh, and I have to stop after, uh, I don't remember maybe one week or two weeks because I have a lot of pain in my knee and, uh, it's difficult.
Yeah. How was your, I guess, did your approach shift from the first one? Yeah. 2013 had amazing. Amazing weather, but, uh, did it, did it shift? And I guess what I'm saying is after the first one, did you, okay. I want to win or I want to, what was your, how did things in the first one we do? We don't really know where we're going to be. And then, then you, oh, okay. How did your expectations change potentially?
When I arrived in two in 2013, uh, I have no expectation, uh, expectation. Yeah. Uh, just I go, it's an adventure. And I do my best and I finish at the, I think third, uh, uh, yes, third. Um, oh, okay. I don't prepare and just, I arrived and I finished third. Now I will come back and maybe I will try to, uh, to win, uh, to, uh, to fight with, uh, more because I was served and we have 20 minutes with the second one. So we are very close, but more of one day, one day before us. So we are not the same in play, but, um, after that, I decided to have a training for that. Um, and at this moment it was not difficult because more was totally alone.
Uh, he have a full training all the years. Um, for the other pilot, like me, we trained just maybe two or three months before the exams. And, uh, this moment I decide to push a lot and I have a lot of training for the next exams. I train maybe more than one years for that. Uh, but I was not alone. A lot of pilots. I did exactly the same. And, uh, at the same moment, more understand how a lot of pilots have a good progress. So I need to progress. And in 2015, he arrived with a lot of preparation and wow, it's another game. And also in 15, uh, I think I finished four or something like that. Um, but I finished four, but in 2013, it was impossible to finish after the maybe five or six, because after those, they are not.
That's not strong, but in 2015, I finished four, but maybe I can finish 20 because all the 20 first pilot has the same level, uh, so the competition changed a lot and now it's possible to go at the exact, but finish at the last, uh, last, uh, place or the, uh, on the podium. Yes. Yeah,
no, it's gotten a lot faster and a lot more serious and everybody that's doing it is more serious. And I mean, I was in 2015 when it, the week before. Yeah. You could kind of look at the field and go, okay, maybe a third, I don't have to worry about, and now you have to worry about everybody. Yeah, exactly. They're all pretty intense. Um, I put out today, uh, after the race that when I learned you were here and Haley, that, uh, you were going to be staying at the house and I was going to have a chance to talk to you. So I put out, I just invited people to send in questions. So I'm going to ask you a few from, uh, just people who have been following this expedition across the, across the States, up to the Canadian border, uh, who, or what inspires you to find, to find and fly attempt the lines that you do?
Uh, I like to do a big line and, uh, I works a lot with my computer to find a line where it's possible to connect everything. Uh, and if I find a line, but just on the computer. I would like to try if it's possible or not, uh, but before to come, I'm sure, uh, we have some, uh, difficult parts, uh, like maybe impossible. And in fact, uh, it's like that in the South is very, very difficult, uh, until the valley of, uh, uh, Owens Valley, uh, just to connect Owens Valley is difficult. And also the second part from the North of Nevada to, uh, Idaho, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, it's very difficult.
Also, it's possible, but you need a perfect day. Um, and I can't wait one or two or three weeks just for that. Uh, I stay here maybe one, two or three months and I can't wait one month. Uh, it's a good condition. I
think also it's a matter of the whole line. I was thinking about that today, you know, really in Canada, what will new and I learned doing that with him is really August 15th.
But, uh,
the reason has been a pretty long time. We haven't been able to make it, uh,
in the last two weeks or three weeks, but we have If we have a plan for the future, it would be, uh, we would, uh,
it would take about two weeks or so, uh, two weeks. So
basically it
would take
about two weeks and a half to one month. And then, uh, after that it's, it's kind of done.
time because in August you can fly here or September also, um, but I changed, uh,
because I have to start in Maine, uh, Canada, and maybe it's also too cold and I have to start in June, but I would like to be free in August and September this year, so it wasn't possible when
you, when you started looking at this line, uh, how much time goes into, uh, you showed me your route on your phone. It's, you've got it very detailed, but how much time do you spend on.
It's depending on the expedition. Uh, for example, for this one, uh, it's easy because it's not a country where a lot of pilots, uh, fly in this country. So I have a lot of, I can, okay. Uh, I have a lot of hike on this way. So I think it's the best way. Uh, but for example, for in Nevada, I don't have a lot of hike, uh, a check and I will have like nothing. Yeah. In the north of Nevada, we have nothing. Uh, so I have to do to study a lot with, um, weather forecast, but as the last 10 years, uh, we, we can check with some, uh, weather forecast, uh, for the, for the past and check when it's possible and how it's possible. And also, uh, normally I travel alone. And if I travel alone, for example, in Nevada, we don't have a lot of water.
So I have to find all the points where it's possible to find water. Like the river, like, uh, sometimes a small city, sometimes a big lake or something like that. Because when you are alone, you can carry only eight or 10 liter of, uh, water and it's only three day, it's not a lot. And sometime you land somewhere and you have to walk three day to find the weather. But this year I'm not alone. I have, uh, I am with a friend, so it's easy. I have a car and if you have a problem, you can come back, come and, uh, so there's
not real, you don't have rules. Or restrictions of this one. It's to have fun. It's not, you're not going to drive or you're not going to, there's no, no,
I don't have a rules, but I
like to
do everything myself. So for example, uh, I learned some time in Nevada, far away of two mountain. So I have to walk 10 or 15 kilometer and I walk alone and I have my friend close to me. And no, no, I take my bike because okay. I can
walk. I can
do, do that. And normally I have to fly and it's possible to connect. But for example, the path from the north of Nevada to Idaho, for me, it's not possible to fly and walk. It's a 150 kilometers like that. Maybe 200 kilometer is far away. Um, no, I don't work this part because it's like not possible to connect. So your
leg is an issue. You were saying too. I mean, you can't just walk.
I can walk. It's just for the exact, for example, is two is 10 or a 15 hour per day. Yeah. If I work for that, uh, when it's out and everything is, I work on a six or eight hour per day. So, uh, with my needs, you can
do it. If it, yes, I can
work a lot, but just for the example is to an intense,
okay. Uh, a guy named Evan Garcia, who has been flying some amazing lines up in the Northwest. He, he wants to, he asked me to ask you, uh, you seem. To keep finding yourself at the right place at the right time. You know, you had that 300 K flight in Nevada. Uh, is this serendipity in other words, is it luck or is it, uh, planned?
Uh, normally it's only when I'm lucky, but this time not because I understand the South, uh, of this, this trip is difficult to fly. So I decide to stop and go directly to events to have this, uh, this flight. Because, uh, we see on the forecast, uh, Saturday and Sunday will be good. So I have to be, uh, in the valley.
Yeah. I mean, the weather, uh, just as a local, I've been here for a long time. The weather this week is we've all been commenting. We've never had weather like this in may just day after day. Good. It's been really good, really good for flying spring spring years can be pretty rough. Um, your first two, I think you've done Pakistan four times. Right. Uh, more, I think six or something like that, maybe more. Okay. Uh, there's a lot of them. Uh, your first two were just kind of, I mean, if I have that right, just unbelievable what you were able to pull off and the glaciers and the mountaineering and then everything else. I know the last couple of years you, you and Besso have had some pretty awful weather.
Um, the, the things you've been able to pull off there. Has it been. More weather or has it been more you willing to fly in pretty unreasonable wild conditions? We've seen your videos, your Instagram posts, you know, you're, you're very willing to fly in very non-recreational conditions. Uh, would you say your success over there has been more weather dependent or more? You just know,
it's not only the weather you need the weather, like everywhere in the world, but, uh, it's. Not only that, it's just, uh, you have to go in a wild place and you have to understand if you fly at this place, maybe we'll land and, uh, work maybe 10 day sometime. So if you don't accept this, you don't go and a lot of people go and then, I don't know, it's to commitment because I, maybe I will work for a lot of day and they stop. Uh, if you are okay, I go, I know maybe I will work 10 day. It's a maximum, but normally it's three or four days. Uh, you can go everywhere. Uh, you accept this one, you can go and, uh, when you go, you are totally free.
Yeah. Okay. We try and maybe you, you climb at 100 meter off the ground and you are lucky, but it's worse. And if you are, you are in the stress or something like that, you stop and you come back. So I think it's more, uh, you have to go and test. Yeah. And, uh, it's sure. Yeah. Because, uh, in 2021, I'm going in Pakistan with, uh, six people, six other people, because a lot of people tell me, oh, you, you flow at 8,000 meter because you are lucky because, uh, uh, you are strong or something like that. And then no, no, no, it's just, I'm going because I understand how it works and, uh, how it's possible to do that also. And I'm going with six friends and five friends because we were six and, uh, two.
So, uh, it's not, uh, only me or only the weather is just because we go, we try and we know how to do that because if we don't know, it's difficult. And, uh, I share my information. I share my, uh, knowledge. It's worse.
From an outside perspective, you know, your films, uh, your posts, that kind of thing. I think most pilots would say he's willing to take a lot of risks. You know, fly in a lot of wind and obviously X-Alps requires you to take a lot of risk. How do you see your own assessment of risk? How do you, and maybe how has it changed in the last 10 years from, you know, your first X-Alps in 2013 to now, what's that 12 years later? You're 45. Yeah.
Yes, I'm 45. Uh, it's just, I think I take a lot of risk during the X-Alps. All the X-Alps is crazy. And, uh, after each X-Alps, I'll tell, oh, it's my last time because, uh, it's too commitment. And normally you arrived and you see another pilot and, ah, it's not for me, but another one arrived and take off. Okay. I have no choice. I have to go. And you take a lot of risk when you are in expedition. It's your own choice. Okay. I have some risk. I don't have, okay. I take this risk or I don't take, it's different for me. It's less a commitment. I don't know. I don't take, I think I don't take a lot of big risk, some risk, of course, like every day, like here, for example, uh, when I flew in the South or Nevada, I take some small risk, but it was not like, uh,
Oh, I enjoy everything. And sometimes I stay a two hour and I check my glider all the time. Okay. It's, it's, it's open. It's open. Oh, it's closed. Oh, it's like that. Uh, not of case, but, uh, it's not a big risk. Hmm.
You were saying, I think this will be surprising for some, you were saying earlier that, uh, traveling through this line you're doing in a lot of ways is, is quite a bit easier than other lines you've done, say maybe in, uh, in the Andes or maybe Pakistan. I don't know. How would you compare it? How would you compare the remoteness or the, uh,
the nastiness of the flying or the, the difficulty compared to other places? Uh, it's very
difficult to explain because, uh, sometimes it's very difficult, like, like in Nevada, because you have a lake of mountain or something like that, but you have some road everywhere. Yeah. So it's not commitment for with, uh, the flights, uh, and sometime, uh, like in, uh, Peru or, uh, in, uh, South America, you have no road, you have nothing, but it's easy to fly. But if you don't fly, you stay at the place because you bought your glider. Or I don't know, you are alone and you are very far away of everything. So it's difficult to compare because you don't have the same risk.
Tell me about your kit. What are you carrying? In my, what, what, what do you, what do you carry? What, what's your kind of standard us on this expedition? What do you have in your bag?
Uh, in fact, I have two bags. No, I have one bag, but, uh, with two things inside, because at this moment I am with my friend, so I have a different bag and I know he will leave maybe in two or three weeks and I will go alone in Canada and the north of America. Maybe I don't know where I will be in three weeks. Uh, so I have a lot of optional things with me in this moment, and after I will, uh, I will have just a minimum.
Okay. So now, uh. Now you're more just you're flying kit because you have a friend and you're with him and you don't have, you're not sleeping bag. I
have, no, I have everything. Okay. Uh, I have all the time because when I cross, for example, when I cross the Nevada, uh, sometime it's not possible to find the road, something like that. So I sleep in the mountain. Okay. So in all case, I can stay every time, three day in the mountain just for safety. Okay. So I have everything, but normally I go with 10 day of food, for example. And, uh, yes. Okay. Because it take a lot in the USA, it's easy to, to find food, but, uh, in a lot of places, it's very difficult. Uh, so you have no choice to have minimum 10 day. And normally I have, uh, two, two day of, uh, uh, just in case. So I have 12, 12 day, uh, in USA is same, but not at this moment, but when I will be alone, I will have a 10 day with me.
Uh, because if you have to stop to find the city to do some shopping and come. Come back, you lose one or two day. So I don't want to do that. So I prefer to fly 10 or 12 day. Uh, so you're having to find
water, snow, snow melt rivers. You're having to, cause you can't carry that kind of water. What do you, how much do you carry one day of water, two days for
the water? And now I carry only three or four liter liter, but, uh, in Nevada, I carry all the time, seven liter. And, uh, because I have, uh, close to me. So I know I have maximum to work one or two. Day, but when I cross, uh, the South America, uh, in Chile, Chile, Chile, uh, I have between 10 and 12 liter with me all the time because we have no, we have no sink. We have to survive, uh, with, uh, the water.
Yeah. Wow. It's a lot. Are you flying way overweight on your glider? Because
as you check down on
the stuff, you get back down into the way
when you have 12 liter and 10 day of food after five days, you lose a lot of weight.
What, what, uh, what's in your food bag?
Only, I, uh, I have two things only because, uh, I, I don't have a lot of volume and for the weight or so, um, also for the energy, because if you take, for example, pasta, for example, pasta, uh, you need a lot of gas to, uh, for the water. And, uh, now I use, uh, like couscous couscous. Only couscous. With, uh, soup inside dry food, uh, dry, uh, soup, and I just, I can put, uh, hot water and also with cold water, it works also. So normally with one, uh, gas, uh, I works for a 15 day. Okay. So it's not a lot. And in the morning, uh, I eat only a musli and I eat only that.
So that just carbs, you don't eat much protein or fat or
no, I need more because, uh, every 10, 12 days. Uh, I find some, I find somewhere to have some shopping. And at this moment, I ate some, uh, protein, some, uh, fat and everything. And also I don't stay more than two or three months. Okay. If I do that for more than three months, it can be done. Yeah. But with three months, the body have enough energy to have compensation. So it works. So
just musli and couscous or some kind of grain and grain. Sometime.
Yes. But now since, uh, Wow. Two years, I use also sometimes some, um, dry meat, just a bit, uh, every day, uh, just, uh, like salami or something, uh, more like a beef, uh, what is the name? Uh, beef jerky, beef jerky, for example, because it's light and I put a bit in the couscous and, uh, just a bit, but it's, it's enough. It
sounds really boring.
Sure. But for sure. Uh, in expedition, I use a 40 and red, uh, uh, 400 grams of food per day for everything. So for 10 day, I have four kilos.
Oh my
God.
It's not enough. So it's boring, but when you have something to eat, you, uh, you want to eat. Yeah. Because it's like, this sounds like
a Shackleton mission, man. Yes. But
I have at each expedition, maybe not this one because I can eat a lot, but, uh, in my old expedition, I lose between eight and 10 kilos every time. Really?
Yes. Did you lose a lot of weight for the X-Alps?
No, for the X-Alps, I lose something like four or six kilos because during the X-Alps, you can eat a lot. Sure. It's easy.
Yeah, sure. Okay. I'm going to go back to these questions that I got from some of the people that are following you, following you along. I, I kind of asked you this, but what kind of time went into this route? How much time did you spend planning this one?
Uh, for one expedition, some time I spent. One years to prepare one years at full time, uh, like, like a job. Yeah. Uh, but for this one, it's a easy one and I works only maybe one or two months, uh, because it's easy to have information. Just, I call some, uh, somebody, uh, some email or, uh, I have a lot of information, so it's, uh, easy. And, uh, also I don't need a big logistic, um, because it's easy. Couldn't I? Yeah. Like in Europe, like, uh, like that. So roads everywhere, not a big, uh, preparation.
Yeah. Interesting. Uh, all these places you've been doing all these at six times in Pakistan. It's amazing. And, uh, in the Andes and you would do the thing in Peru and Chile and, uh, here now, do you have a favorite?
I think Pakistan for me is, uh, is the best because you have a very big mountain and it's not easy to fly, but not difficult because for me. Well, it's very difficult to fly. It's a shitty in the middle of the shitty, not on the coast or something like that. But in the, in the mountain is very difficult. Uh, what makes it difficult?
Why? What, what makes it difficult? The flying, uh,
yes, because you have a lot of breeze. Mm-hmm. Uh, you have to cross some valley and sometime you have 70 kilometer of wind every day. Mm-hmm. Uh, so some at the beginning, you don't know that. So you arrived. Um, you are totally destroyed. With your glider and you tell, oh, I would like to stop because it's too dangerous. After you understand you have to land just before the valley, wait in the morning, you have to cross very early in the morning and, uh, walk up and go at the next one. A lot of local knowledge. Uh, you have a lot of things like that. You don't have water, it's commitment and, uh, and everything. Uh, it's why I tell it's very, very difficult, but, uh, Pakistan, it's, it's commitment, but not because you have a risk. It's commitment. It's commitment because you, maybe you have to walk a lot is different.
Uh, you don't lose the life. It's just, uh, you lose time or energy to come back.
Um, yes, I, uh, I like the, the big mountain. It's totally different of, uh, Nepal or, uh, India or everything, because in Nepal is beautiful because you have a lot of mountain and only one big is 8,000 meter. Another one, but in Pakistan is incredible. You have, you have arrived at one place. You have maybe 20 or, uh, more 7,000 peak at the same place. You fly only with 7,000 meter everywhere. It's unbelievable.
Amazing. Yeah. And the films have been just incredible. Um, here's a good one. Any mental models or exercises, you know, in your, in your mind that you do during these long expeditions to help combat various things that might come. Like, uh, uh, loneliness, fatigue, uh, the diet, um, just missing your girlfriend. You mentioned you had a girlfriend at home, uh, the stress of it or the risk, you know, maybe a series of days that are a lot of wind and fear. Uh, is there anything that you have found really works for you during these trips that, uh, help maybe you either make good decisions.
Or just to help you stay kind of centered, uh,
for me, the, uh, mental preparation is very, very important. It's a big part. Um, normally I works between three and six months before the expedition, and I use a lot this preparation because I, if now I have a normal life and I decide to go to do this expedition, uh, for me, it will be totally impossible because you are far away of your family or. You are not ready. And, uh, it can be turbulent and if it's turbulent, I'm afraid I would like to stop and everything. But if I have a prep mental preparation, uh, during six months, uh, imagine every, uh, night by night, just before to sleep, uh, imagine one seconds of, uh, this expedition, uh, how will be the Nevada for example.
Okay. It will be very windy. It will be with big thermal. Okay. If I have big thermal, I have to do that. Okay.
If I have big thermal, I have to do that.
And I have a preparation. It will be strong for example. And when it's arrived, it's more easy because you are already prepared. And also I use a lot this part because, uh, for USA is most easy. But for example, uh, if I prepare the, uh, one expedition in Pakistan, uh, imagine, okay, uh, I'm in Pakistan. Uh, now I have a thunderstorm, but I'm not in the fly on the ground and I break my tent. How I can repair my tent. And I tell, okay, if I break my tent, I can't repair, I can survive or not. If I can't survive. Okay. I understand. Uh, I have to take with me something to repair my tent because if I break my tent, I will be dead. Uh, so I decide for, for everything I decide what is mandatory or not mandatory to have with me to, for survive.
So this preparation helped me to decide what I take in my bag.
So it sounds like you. You're, you're, you're doing a lot of visualization a lot future. So you're imagining everything and you're, you're, you're running through all the possible cases where it can go exactly.
And when it's arrived, because sometimes it's arrived, you know, how you have to react, right? Because we imagine a lot. Okay. If I, if I take the example of the tent, okay. Uh, remember I take some, uh, special teacher for that. And okay. I will find my bag. And, uh, it's easy. You don't tell you are not in the stress. Uh, it's why for me, it's very, very important.
Well, Gad has this saying that, you know, many people, we both got a glass of water here. That's about half full. So I can use this, but many people will look at a glass of water and see a glass that's half full. He sees a glass that any, he thinks what's going to break the fucking glass. And he's looking for what's going to go wrong. What can possibly happen here? That's not going to play out. Like we think it is. Don't be in, in other words, don't be an optimist. You look at, look at the situation and what's going to kill me because mountains are trying to kill us. You know, they're, they're not friendly places. They're trying to kill us. So I always, I always liked that one that if you, you're always looking for what's going to go wrong, then you've got a better chance of surviving. Sure. It sounds like that's what you do. Yes, it's similar.
Oh, interesting. Back to my question about from an outside perspective, I think the general flying world who follows what you're doing, they see someone who's crazy. This is, this is just crazy. How do you assess your own? How do you, you, do you think you're more crazy or do you think what you're doing is, is pretty, you're safe?
No, I think it's not safe and it's not really, it's a, for me, it's an average, uh, because I works a lot of, of, on all my projects. It's not, a lot of people thinks, okay, I go in Pakistan and okay, I flew at 8,000 because I'm lucky, something like that. But in fact. I prepare, uh, one years before and a lot, it's not like a joke. Uh, a lot of people who are close to me, they show me, they see me a lot with my computer and, and write a lot of things and works for one year. Sometime I don't work one year on one project. It's, uh, I worked one year during five years or six years. And when it's ready, I go, I don't, uh, I don't tell, okay, next year I will go, I will go only when it's ready.
And I'm totally prepared. And, uh. It's finished. So, no, I think, um, I did some expeditions since now it's 30 years, uh, 30 years, um, I'm still alive. Um, I did a lot of commitment expedition. Um, yes, a lot of time. I, I had some luck, like a lot of people, but, uh, I, I think I'm still alive because I works a lot of my projects. It's not only the work. Uh,
you've had a rough couple of years with that. You've lost, uh, the, your buddy in Pakistan last year, and then down in south America. Um, it sounds like both of them were not really. You weren't with that, the person at this time. So maybe you don't know exactly what happened, but did that, uh, impact you?
Was that, uh, a lot yeah. Uh, for me, the very difficult, because when I go an expedition with a friend, uh, for me,
uh, I'm always on a vacation.
me, in my head, it's like I'm responsible because I have a lot of experience and my friends have less experience because I did a lot of expeditions in a long, long time. So if I have an accident in my expedition, I think I'm responsible. So it's impacted me a lot. And it's why here, for example, in the USA, I come alone to fly because at this moment, I lost my friend three years ago. Now, I'm not ready to go alone with just one friend.
The last three expeditions, it was only with a team and not with only one friend because with a team, it's different because everybody has to check everybody.
For me, in my head, it's like I'm less responsible. But for the moment, it's not possible to go with only one friend.
Do you have a preference going alone or going as a team or going with one friend?
I prefer to go only with one friend because you share a lot of things. It's very interesting. With a team, it's also fun. And alone, it's a different expedition because
when I go alone, it's only when I'm not sure at 100%. It's not possible. It's possible or it's safe. If I know maybe you have 20 % of chance of maybe it's not possible to come back because it's dangerous, I will go alone for sure. When I'm sure at 100%, I go with a friend. Because if you go with a friend and you are not sure at 100%, when you are where it's difficult, you think about your friend and you are not totally in your head. And you can't react exactly how you have to do the things. So I prefer to be alone for safety also.
The 800 hours a year for all those years and all the training for the ex-Alps. And you've been at this a while now and at it really at a high level and a hard level. How have you maintained the passion for it? How have you maintained the drive?
For me, it's only for the expedition. Because I tell if I progress, I can do another expedition, more difficult, more big, more beautiful. I don't know. In Pakistan, I'm going a lot of time because at the beginning, just I discovered Pakistan. And I saw the possibility.
It's like a line. I have to progress to arrive at this level and to do everything. At this moment, I think I will go. Maybe for the last time next summer in Pakistan to finish all my projects. I will come back for sure, but not for big project just to enjoy the Pakistan because I'm at the end of my possibility of progression. Okay. So in Pakistan, after we have the other project everywhere in the world, but in Pakistan, I'm at the last step. So I will see.
Do you have any reason? You have a lot of projects. You have a lot of these planned out, but what's something that, I mean, right now, I'm sure you're excited about what you're doing, but what's something that's in the future that you've been planning for a while?
It's difficult to say because I did a lot of things everywhere in the world. Now, I would like more, maybe share all my experience with some people. I like to share. It's why in 2021, I'm going with five friends to fly at 8,000. And just to, because I like to share. And when I see my friend to climb at 8,000, I'm so happy because I arrived to share my experience. So yes, it's good. And I like to do that. And I would like to share maybe with my girlfriend. And she's a pilot.
Yes. Yeah. It's a good pilot. Yes. That's awesome. Did you meet through flying? Yes. Oh, cool.
Yes. I don't know, but I don't want to go more in performance. It's like this project. It's not a performance. It's just to enjoy the life, the trip and everything. And I think the future, it will be more like that. To enjoy the place. And maybe I will repeat some other expedition of other pilots and not to be the first to do something. It's not a goal.
But sometimes you want to do something. Nobody did that before. You have to be the first. But I like to enjoy it. Yeah.
This is an impossible question. But I'm going to ask it anyway. When you think back to the last since 2007, is there a flight that just defines why you do this? We've all had a flight that's just, wow, that was really special. I know there's dozens and dozens. But when I ask that question, is there one that pops in your mind?
No, I don't have one. It's just memorization. Sometimes when I did my first solo expedition in Pakistan, I arrived in the mountain. And I flew a bit like two or three days. And I was blocked at one point because I had bad weather for, I don't remember, four days, something like that. And I was in my tent until, why am I here? I'm alone. I'm afraid. I'm in Pakistan. I don't know if it's possible to fly in Pakistan because at this moment, not a lot of private pilots flow there. And, wow, what did I do? And after this moment, I tell maybe I will stop, but it's too early. I have to test one or two days more. And after the first flight, it's only maybe 70 kilometers. It's a short flight, but I enjoy everything.
The flight, the landscape and everything. I know why I'm here, but it's not the best flight. I understand I love to fly and discover a new place. And I continue every time after that. It's just like a click. Okay, it's like that. I love it and I know why. It's not a flight. Only one.
Do you, one of the things that I have found so compelling about expeditions is the simplicity in a sense that there's nothing else happening. When you're really fully engaged in. A mission in completing something or just doing something that intense, it's really simple. You're just trying to survive. There's no, I don't know. There's no outward, uh, distractions. There's no girlfriend. There's no, there's not this other stuff, at least for me, it hasn't, it doesn't really make an impact. It's not a big deal,
but I love that to go alone somewhere. I mean, you think you have two. Two or three things to two things is like where I can find the water food and where is the next terminal or the next landing place and you forgot everything in the life you all your problem or everything can I tell all the time the same things and my girlfriend when I go far away. Okay, I will go maybe for two months, but for me in my head, it's like today it's very short because I'm focused and I come back maybe for you with two months. But for me, it's. Only two days. So when you come back, we are not at the same level for me. It's like, oh, I'm going yesterday. I come back, but for my girlfriend, I have to go slowly and speak and do everything is different.
Do
you find it really hard to come back?
Yes, uh, when I, uh, because when you are an expedition another time, like not like here, but when you are far away in South America, something like that, or Pakistan all the day, you see only. How I can eat, drink, uh, survive only. But when you come back in my own, if I want some water, I opened the water. I would like to cook just I I use maybe two minutes and after that I finished my day. But in expedition is took maybe four or five hours because sometimes you have to walk 1000 meters down and climb again just to catch a two liter of water. Um, something like that. And when I come back and all the time, wow, what is your life?
I don't like my life, but after one or two weeks, yes, I'm like everybody, but the first two weeks all the time, very, very difficult. Yeah,
I, I don't like coming back really hard. Uh, okay. Another impossible one, but see if something pops into your head, scariest flight you've ever had, maybe something that still sticks with
you. Uh, I have some different one, uh, the first one maybe was in Pakistan, my first time in Pakistan, uh, because I was, I was sick by, uh, thunderstorm, uh, with the snowing a lot and, uh, I fight maybe 30 minutes in the cloud, uh, and it was my first experience with a thunderstorm and I don't know how to react and like everybody, when you are like that, you are sick. Uh, you. Want to do 360, turn a lot, but it's not the solution. And you stay, you fight like that, uh, half hour and after half hour, oh, okay. It's finished. I stay like that. I will be dead.
What I can do. And I remember, uh, just a sentence is if you climb somewhere, just go outside. At this moment, I accept to be in the cloud and I climb, I don't know how long was it, but maybe two or 300 meters in the cloud. Uh, I don't know how long was it, but maybe two or 300 meters in the cloud. Uh, I don't know how long was it, but maybe two or 300 meters in the cloud. And I go in front and after it's possible to down. But, uh, when you fight half hour, it's totally crazy. You are sure you will be dead and crying and okay, it's finished, finished. This was my first experience of a bad, bad first experience. Yeah.
It's no fun being in a big cloud.
Others. I have a lot.
Uh, another one.
Sometime. I remember one time. In Pakistan, I have a very strong wind, like, uh, I don't know, I was maybe 20 or 30 kilometer in, uh, back, uh, going back. Yes.
Um, you don't know how it's possible to land when it's like that. Yeah. So, uh, it's a long time because you see your shadow.
Gus front or just wind. Was it like a Gus front? You know, a thunderstorm that had dropped. No, no,
no, no. It's just a wind. It's just wind. So you can't, uh. Escape or wait, uh, you can do nothing. It's just, uh, no choice, but because I had two experience like that, not only in Pakistan, but a different place, but, uh, at each time on the ground, it's less, uh, stronger and, uh, it works. Uh, it was not maybe 10 or you fall a bit, but, uh, it's not very, very dangerous for me.
You mentioned the X ops. It has the.
What have you done that has exposed you to the most risk? I mean, what, what of all the trips, the X ops, the Pakistan, the mountaineering, all the things that you've done, when has there been a moment, uh, that you've been really close to, I'm probably not going to make it out of this one.
Uh, difficult to tell because I was afraid many time. Um, in X ops is too much because. When I. I do one expedition, normally it's one time or two times you are afraid, um, but during the exact, maybe every day, one time in, uh, one, one time per day. So it's because it's all the time. The same is if you cross the road one time, you have no risk. You cross the road, the same road, 1,000 times. You can have an accident and, uh, for me, for the Excel, you can take one risk every day is too much. Yeah. Uh, and you don't choose your risk because. In expedition, you have the choice in X helps if you want to win or to be, uh, in the first, you have to take a risk and, uh, I don't like this, uh, that's
interesting. I mean, I, I don't have the, nearly the expedition experience you do, but I, I felt the same with the Alaska expedition, the, the, you know, the mountains are so big and we knew so little, we had no knowledge and the weather was useless because the mountains created their own. This, the forecasts were completely useless, but because you're doing it on your own terms, I never felt the biggest risk would be a bear or something. It wasn't, it wasn't the flying. It wasn't, uh,
for me, same is not, uh, when I flew, uh, uh, for example, two years ago, I was in Pakistan. Uh, I climbed, uh, I climbed, I flew, I start from the city, uh, I flew on Jan and I learned, I learned that maybe 6,000. Five. Four hundred and just, I would like to climb fast on the summit I down, but I have some problem and I lose time and I have to sleep in, uh, in the mountain and in the mountain, I was not totally prepared for that. I was prepared for, uh, uh, top to bottom in one day, but not to stay two or three nights in the mountain. And, uh, I have a demo, uh, with, uh, what is, uh, uh,
I can breathe. Yeah. Uh, I begin that with that. And in the morning, uh, it was not possible to take off because it was windy. I have to down by foot. Uh, we have a lot of crevice and, uh, I fall in a crevice and, uh, I spend one hour. You're by yourself. Yes. I was alone. And, uh, is this
when you had the bad ankle? You hurt your ankle? No, no, no. It's not a different one.
It's a different one. Okay. Uh, and I have to fight for the life, uh, all the day. Um, I was like, I managed to, to escape. Uh, but when I arrived on the ground, I tell this my last time in the mountain because I was sure I'm dead. I think at this expansion, I was very, very lucky, uh, because I fall in the crevice, I fight one hour and at one moment I fight and I don't arrive. So I stop, I wait, uh, to be dead. But in fact, it's long. You wait, you wait. Okay. And when you wait, you recover your, a bit of energy and you fight again. And again, and you stop and it's finished. Did you know you had a demon? Did you know
you had that before?
Yes. I have a lot. It's my first, uh, with, uh, breasts. I have some, uh, two edema of, uh, edema. You had the cerebral. Yes. But, uh, yes, it's not comfortable because you have blood in your mouth. Um, no, it's not comfortable. Uh, to say the least. It's most uncomfortable.
It's more comfortable on
the ground and not in the flights at each time. But, uh, this one was, it was too much for me, this expedition. So
that, but the, the hazards have been worse on the ground is what you're saying than they've been in the air. Not really interesting.
And, uh, another one, it was in Ethiopia. Uh, I stayed 24 hour with some local people with guns and everything. They want to kill me because they think as I was in the war and, uh, at this expedition, I was in tandem. With my girlfriend and we land nowhere and, uh, people don't have a connection or something like that. And, uh, immediately they shoot us on the glider. And, uh, and, uh, we spend four hour with, uh, arm in the sky like that. And we wait and, uh, they wait for the army, but they don't have rod. They have nothing. So the army, uh, need, uh, 24 hour to come and, uh, we were, uh, in a prison for 24 hour and they don't know if they have to kill us and everything because we're right from the sky with a park light, but they see we are parachutes, uh, we have a lot of electronic, uh,
spies or something.
Yes. Um, is that sure? We're a spy. So we have a lot of stress, but same is not in the sky, right? I followed
that one in Richie. And that, that didn't look like a lot of fun. One looked hard, not a lot of good flying, but, um, have you ever had an experience flying that has, are you familiar with the term fear injury? What? It's fear injury. It's like, it's like a brain injury for, from fear. You get so scared that they've, there's quite a bit of science now about this. So when you hurt, when you crashed in the 2017, you hurt your leg and you're, you have to be in a hospital bed for whatever you couldn't walk for a month. You were saying, and then, you know, there's the recovery and then it's the physical, but from your brain, you had anything like that where
for me, not, but, uh, like for my friend now, when I go to fly with a friend or with my girlfriend or with somebody, uh, I have a lot of stress. Really? Yes. Uh, it's difficult, uh, for me to fly with, uh, only one friend.
Hmm. Interesting. I
think it's. Maybe for a long time because already three years and I don't know where, where, because I was sure I plenty, I have, um, I need to come here this year because I think it's three years after the accident. So now I recovery, everything. Okay. I can, but in fact, it's not possible. Six months ago, I tell, no, I will go alone for sure. So it's not for me. It's for, uh, the people with me.
Antoine, are you, have you found your approach? Or maybe willingness to accept rest risk? Is it changed in the last 10 years? Do you find age, maybe changing things or life? I don't know. Relationships.
Uh, yes, a bit, uh, at the beginning, uh, my first three years of paragliding, I take a lot of risk because I don't have a lot of, uh, information, things like that. And I take some risk. Um. And after that, I understand that I'm lucky at this moment. And now I, I see, I don't take a lot of risk. A lot of people thinks you take a lot of risk, but when I have, um, when I check all, uh, the years, uh, when I beginning, I was a beginner, I take a lot of risk. Uh, if I compare, uh, now, uh, it's just, I have a lot of experience of a lot of things and I know what I do.
Uh, and me, I have like a buffer before, uh, between the, the level or stress and the accident. And when I go in the buffer, I have a lot of, uh, stress and I have a reflection, how it's possible to stop that. For example, when, if I fly, if I have a collapse, it's not like nothing for me. Okay. I have a collapse. Why? I have no, um, bad control. I am go in the lee side or why I have one, uh, collapse. If I don't understand why I have a collapse, I will worse and church. What is it? Why I have that, uh, to find a solution. Uh, it's not like, okay, I have a collapse or I think about, uh, oh, it's a bird or something like that.
No. Uh, for me, my buffer is big and I would like to understand everything to go, uh, at the next level or next step. It's not, uh, for example, I never use a buffer. If
I use my
rescue, I will use, uh, one day for, of course, but for me to use a rescue, it's not like nothing is very, wow, if I don't have a rescue, I'm dead. And maybe the rescue doesn't work. So if I use the rescue, I'm very lucky to stay alive. Yeah. Uh, it's my philosophy, but if I have to use, I will use one hundred percent. Sure, sure, sure.
I, I think that it's important that you're, what you're saying about, uh, if I'm reading that right, is you're not going into a place. So low. So deep. So nasty that your only way out is with the reserve that that's for me, it's impossible. That's that's you've gone way too far. You're not going to do that. You're this is, this is just in case of emergency, but you're not using that as a last resort.
For me, I have a philosophy still, uh, if I, I don't have two or three solution, I don't go. Okay. Uh, uh, the minimum is two when, when I tell I take a risk, if it's when I have only two solution to escape. Uh, for me, for example, to do some cross country and use the rescue, if you have only one rescue, it's not a solution, but it can be dead if you have to rescue. Okay. Maybe it's less dangerous because it's the first one doesn't work. You have a second one, you have two possibility to escape the same one, same, uh, escape, but, uh, you have two possibility if you have only one, I don't do that for everything or
everything. So you have it. How do you, when you get scared, do you have a way to relax? What do you do when you get scared?
Hmm. No, when I'm scared, I just, I'm focused on why, how to escape and everything. Uh, I think, um, I'm all the time stress all the time. Uh, it's not possible to be comfortable. And I think if you don't have stress, you are dead because. Yeah. You can have an accident very fast and everything. Um, but my level of stress can be very, very high. So I, I'm not, um, how to tell after the stress, like in, uh, what is the word after the stress? It's, um, panic. Yeah. Because if you are in panic, you can be dead also because you have a bad react and everything.
And I'm lucky because I have, uh, I can have a lot of stress before to be. Yeah. In, uh, in panic and, uh, me, when I'm in stress, uh, my brand go very fast and works well. And I'm very lucky with that because, uh, I have not all the time, but a lot of time, a good reaction. Hmm.
There are people who, when the stress increases, and this is unusual, but, uh, something that I don't know that it can be trained necessarily, but, uh,
your heart rate goes down. You know, you get so into finding the escape, finding a solution. Do you know, have you ever, have you ever used a heart rate monitor? When I get really scared, I actually get really calm. Yes. I kind of go the other way. And it's, again, I don't think it's something that you train. It's just, that's my natural response, which is great because I can think. Yes. I don't panic. Yes. It's very important. Yeah. Sure. Do you know what that, if, do you, is that what happens to you?
I don't know because it's difficult to know what's happened exactly. Uh, just,
I know I have good reacts because after the accident or the, the problem, uh, what I can do better. Yeah. And I tell, no, I did the good decision and the good reacts, but I don't know. I don't know why I do that. It's just natural. It's why I tell I'm lucky because my body or my brain have a good react. It's not me who works on this. It's just, uh, I don't know why.
Is the accident you had in the exops, the only accident you've had hurt your leg. You had other accidents.
Uh, no, no, no, uh, I don't have a lot of accident. I have a lot of collapse. If you fix that. Don't tell. And now I don't want to go, uh, I don't have the bad landing or something like that during my expedition, a lot, but not, uh, I'm afraid a lot of time with the wind, but it's all the right,
right. Antoine, I wish you the best of luck on this trip. Uh, let you get to sleep here. Cause I know you guys are getting started early. Uh, you've got a lot of people watching you and paying attention and it's a real treat to have you here with us. Yeah. Uh, the house and, uh, good luck, man. Thank you. It's a great line. It's a, it's a very, it's a cool line and I'm sure you'll pull it off. Thank you. Have fun. If
you find the cloud-based may have valuable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. You can give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or however you get your podcast that goes a long ways and help spread the word. You can blog about it on your own website or share it on social media. You can talk about it on the way out to launch with your pilot friends. I know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way. And of course you can support. This show does take a lot of time, a lot of editing, a lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind the scenes costs. So if you can support us financially, all we've ever asked for is a buck a show. And you can do that through a one-time donation through PayPal, or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out. We put a new show out every two weeks. So for example, if you did a buck a show and every two weeks, it'd be about $25 a year.
So way cheaper than a magazine subscription. And it makes all of this. Possible. I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors. We get asked about that pretty frequently, but I, for a whole bunch of different reasons, which I've said many times on the show, I don't want to do that. I don't like having that stuff at the front of the show. And I also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people, and these are just our opinions, but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars. I think that's a pretty toxic business model. So I hope you dig that. Um, you can support us. If you go to cloudbasedmayhem.com. You can find the places to support. You can do it through patreon.com forward slash cloud based mayhem. If you want a recurring subscription, you can also do that directly through the website. We've tried to make it really easy and that will give you access to all the bonus material, little video casts that we do and extra little, uh, nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show.
But we feel like you should hear, we don't put any of that behind a paywall. If you can't afford to support us, then just let me know. And I'll set you up with an account, of course. That'll be lifetime and hopefully in a, you're being in a position someday to be able to support us, but you'll find all that on the website, uh, all of you who have supported us or even joined our newsletter or bought cloud based mayhem, merchandise, t-shirts or hats or anything. You should be all set up. You should have an account and you should be able to access all that bonus material. Now, thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next show. Thank you.