Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I had a very cool show today with Benny Boehle. He's out in Austria, actually lives in southern Germany, but he is a designer for Skywalk. And those of you who have been following the rise of parakiting and the mustache and now the line, their speed version, you know the swing and you know about parakiting. I did not know too much about it, and it's actually called flaring. It's really a new sport kind of between kite surfing and paragliding. And many people have been asking me to interview Benny. He's kind of the one responsible. It was his thesis that he brought to Skywalk a few years ago, and they have made it into a thing.
This is a very, very big thing up in Denmark, as you'll hear in the show. But apparently when you go out to the dunes out there, it's about 85 % people flaring these days. Uh, super high energy, very interesting wings that work more, you know... if you've done some kite surfing and you understand bar pressure and letting out a bar and pulling in a bar and the power window and these kinda things, you'll be familiar with these. But we take a deep dive on flaring in this episode and find out what they're all about. What the advantages are. What the disadvantages are, how they work, the things to be aware of when you're first getting into it, and he, we wrap up the show at the end, we kind of finished it, and then he talked about that.
It was really important to put out there that What they're seeing, you know, just like in any kind of gravity sports, there, there is risk, of course. And those, these wings are so easy to fly that people get overconfident really quickly. So he just wanted to put out there that, you know, remember, if you get one of these wings, you still need instruction. You still need to take it slow. You need to do it around other people who know what they're doing, you know? And launch, and put in the beginning, you want to fly in places that have some margin and some cushion, you know, rather than cliff launches. You want to do it in the dunes where they're really built for, anyway. So I really enjoyed this, found it very instructive and informative, and I want to get one of these wings.
There, I've seen all the videos. I'm crazy, I'm pretty wild. So, yeah, enjoy this talk before we get to it. Just a quick bit of housekeeping: when I was over at the PWC in Switzerland, I bought a pair of Netsu heated gloves. I've been pretty down on heated gloves. I've tried them over the years, and Black Diamond and, you know, really good brands, and they always seem to fail or don't work or, you know, do that much. And so I've been going with kind of a thin glove and an over mitt, but that's not that great when you're on the bees, you know, trying to use a two-liner with the toggles. It's just super awkward. I always feel like, when if you'd have to go to throw your reserve, it's tricky, so
There was a guy there that's selling these Netsu gloves that are a Polish brand, and they've really done a ton of work with external batteries, you know? So you don't want to just throw them away, just throw them away. You don't want to... You connect a 20 milliamp battery, it's a 20,000 milliamp battery, you run the line up your sleeve and you got one on each glove so it'll last for a long time. And one of the problems with heated gloves is that the batteries go really quickly or the glove doesn't register that it has any more power. There's a lot of faults when it comes to that voltage. It's all about voltage that creates the heat. These guys have completely figured it out. So at the Swiss PWC, they had run out of the thicker gloves so I just got the thinner ones.
They're a liner and that was all I needed. You know, flying around at 3,500 meters, it's pretty cold, still very much spring over there. My hands were toasty. So they're great and I thought they were so great that I'm now a dealer of them over in the U.S. I think I'm the only one. So if you're interested in these, I've got the thicker version and the thinner version. They're being shipped right now. By the time this show goes up, I will have them in stock. I'll bring them to the Red Rocks Wide Open. I'll bring them to the World Cup down in Utah next month. And so you can get them from me there. But check it out. If you've been struggling with cold hands, I believe this is a very good solution. And I'll have them on the website, cloudbasemayhem.com. Enjoy the show.
Benny, great to have you on the Mayhem. It's only taken us many, many, many, many months to put this together. Yeah. But thanks for
joining us. Thanks for making
it happen so last minute. And congratulations on moving into your new place there. It looks nice.
Thank you for having me. And I checked before it was pretty much exactly 12 months, one year since our last conversation.
Sometimes I was surfing through my inbox, which is always a disaster this morning and went, oh my God, I completely forgot about this one. So yeah, well, thanks for making it happen. And thanks for doing this late. I understand it's 10 o'clock your time. Two o'clock my time, a little more reasonable, but tell me a little bit about, we talked very briefly this morning about flair and the mustache and, and skywalk. Just get us up to speed. Tell us about your personal journey a little bit, how you ended up doing what you're doing. And then there's a lot of people listening who want to know more about this, this wing and these concepts.
For sure. I'm 35 years old. I am based in Germany.
And I started in skywalk in the skywalk group 2013, but I started as a team rider for a fly surfer, which is one brand from the skywalk group, um, 2011. So now I'm over 13 years ago and yeah, basically I started kite surfing when I was 10. Um, so pretty long ago, then I started paragliding when I was 16. Yeah. I was always really, um, into theastic about stuff flying around. Um, there'd be model planes, paragliders, gliders, whatever, just if it flies, it's, um, it's for me.
So yeah, I got in touch with the system from the let's, let's call it the parakite system. Actually at my first event as a fly surfer team rider, which was a snow kite event I met, um, Armin Harich, who is one of the founders from the skywalk group basically founded skywalk back then. So yeah, he basically showed me, um, because he knew I was, I was, um, also paragliding and he showed me this new concept where he basically, um, modified an old kite from him and put some risers on them, um, changed the bridle and he was peri, peri motoring it, um, on skis. And then, you know, it was a 15 meter and he was like, it's just speeding up before takeoff and then just hit the brakes and just went straight up.
And I was like, okay, yeah, I want to do something, something with it, you know? Um, and I, I basically straight realized that this is, um, that this could do something to the sport. Um, I didn't know at the time what it would do, but I knew it would have an impact at one day. And yeah, basically, I did my bachelor's internship with, um, fly surfer and skywalk. Um, and I wrote my, my thesis about the riser system, um, from the now, now mustache back then it was, we did not call it mustache back then. Um, and yeah, so basically they offered me a job because they seemed happy about my thesis and, um, what I did during my internship.
And I ended up in the paragliding department as a test pilot. And I learned, um, a lot from Alex, um, Alex Helvalt, um, who's doing some paragliders now. And, um, yeah, I spent with him two years until 2015, um, testing and designing the wings. And yeah, then we had, uh, we had one developer from sky, from fly surfer, um, going from full-time to part-time and my passion, I felt during those two years that my passion is more on the kiting side of things. And, um, I wanted to develop, uh, race kite because back then at the time, um, I really loved to kite race, um, on the hydrofoils, which is by the way, uh, in the Olympic games the first time now.
So, um, I'm also pretty excited about this. Um, but yeah, cool. And yeah, basically I then switched full-time to, um, to fly surfer kiteboarding at one point and started designing all the foil kites. And that's basically also where I'm at now. Um, I'm in charge for the full, um, foil kite range and, um, I'm also head of development now for fly surfer kiteboarding. And if I have some time left, I, uh, design the wings for FLIR. So that's, uh, a bit, uh, the story behind, um, behind, uh, behind me, basically how, how I got where I am now.
How much of your design natural talent or ability comes from your background in kite surfing versus flying versus paragliding? Is that my background is also in kite surfing. It's, you know, it's, it's pretty interesting how many pilots come from sailing kite surfing. It's quite, uh, there's, there's quite a nice crossover, you know, just understanding Lee and power and the power window. And all these things, but, uh, I don't know of too many designers that have come through that path that like you have, maybe there's lots. I just, I'm not aware of it, but
I think the combination, um, from my early start in both sports, basically, like I started cutting when I was 10 paragliding when I was, when I was 16 or 14, but I did my license when I was 16, I developed, I would say, good feeling for both kind of wings. Um, and I think this is the main part, which, um, or where I'm benefiting from now. And at the time when I was learning with Alex, um, I really tried to understand what or which parameters can be used from the kite, for example, in paragliding and vice versa. And basically the, the, the mustache is the perfect combination between, between both systems.
And for me, I would say it was, or the mustache would not be the same as it is now. Um, if I would have only been kite surfing or only would have been paragliding. So I think the combination of those two sports was the key for fully understanding the system, you know, really implementing or adjusting all the single parameters, which you need to design a good wing, um, to fit the target group. I would say, which we did not know really who was the target group for the mustache at the beginning, but in the end we, we really focused on, on soaring, but yeah, something we'll for sure talk about later.
Yeah. Uh, why mustache?
Um, yeah, mustache. Um, it's actually pretty funny story because, um, we, so basically we, we launched a brand in February, 2022 and two years before, I said, okay, I will, I will freeze the design now more or less. And, um, we'll do some, you know, some long longevity tests and some, you know, just give, give the, give a few wings out to people, um, get some feedback. Um, yeah, see how the wing is changing, how the trim is changing. Um, and for this like, um, field test, I would say I wanted to have something, something funny on the wing, um, to, you know, just not give them blank white wings or whatever, because there was no, no flare brand, um, at this time.
So we were still, there was no brand. There was no name. There was no nothing. Um, we just knew we want to bring it somehow, um, to the market. So, yeah, at one point I was like, um, saying to a colleague who, he was, um, or who came in my office and I was just thinking about stuff, how to, how to put on the wing. And yeah, we, we thought about a funny mustache or whatever, you know, we just have something that the people talk about it because it's so different. And also when you see them flying, it is different. And so we wanted to kind of do something funny. Um, and then at the end or at the end, pretty soon, um, people were like talking about the mustache already.
So we were not giving, um, the wing the name, but. Yeah.
The wing was already known from the prototypes as the mustache. So yeah, it was basically said, um, the, the name for, for the first paracord, everything came from a joke, actually.
All, all the best companies are starting from a joke. That's perfect. So your audience has no idea what we're talking about. Let's imagine that for a moment. Uh, many of them do, of course, but let's just imagine they don't. Why is flair different? What, what's different? What's the same, what's the concept? Why are so many people talking about it and why do they look so damn fun?
Um, yeah. So let's talk about the paracord system or, and yeah, in this way, the flair system.
So basically I think everyone knows the basic concept of a paraglider. So we have basically our brake lines attached to the, to the trailing edge. Um, and then the accelerator, basically, if I activate the accelerator, I pull down the leading edge and change, um, the angle of attack of the wing. Um, so basically what we're doing with the flair system is exactly the same, but the opposite way. So on the paraglider, we cannot change the length of the sea level or the B level. Okay. Depending on two or three liners. Um, but we can pull down the A level and accordingly, the B level, um, in between.
And with the flair system, the A level is exactly the same length all the time. But when we give hands up, then we extend the B into C level and the brake. So we basically go lower in angle of attack and fly faster. When we give our hands up, we put hands up. And the same goes if we put hands down, we increase the angle of attack. So, um, yeah. So basically we brought the D power from kiting, so where you can get rid of the power and release basically a trailing edge to get less angle of attack to get rid of the power. We brought this into paragliding. Um, and the
main advantages from this system are basically that you can use your accelerator from paragliding. You can use it already on the ground because when you have a little, let's say a highway launch and a paraglider, you, you're launching the wing and you have instantly full power of the wing. And when you're flying, then you can basically activate your accelerator and accelerate forward. But with the flair system, you are, you can just release the brakes. The, uh, the, the wing will just inflate slowly. And will not pull you because you are not pulling. So the trailing edge is open. We have low angle of attacks, so we can handle way, way more wind on the ground because we can use our accelerator already standing on the ground and not only while flying.
Um, which gives you way more possibilities of top landing, positioning yourself, you know, if we are ridge soaring, for example. Um, so yeah, it's just, it's just, uh, super, super fun system. Um, you have to get used to it for sure. It's not, you know, just for a paraglider, it's not only to hook you in and you're, you'll be totally fine. So you would need to get used to it. But from our experience, kiters, like really experienced kiters who had no experience in paragliding and they have the right spot on a nice dune, you know, no rocks, but just a nice dune, not too high, good wind. Um, they, they are not having, uh, or they're not having a too, too hard time getting used to the paragliding system because they know that the, the sense of deep power already.
Um, so yeah,
that's basically the, um, the main concept from the, from the flare system and to make the flare system really work, you need to do some tweaks to the, to the canopy itself, because it's, it's not, it's not really working of, you know, just buying a flare system and putting it on, on any other wing. Um, it's not working that easy actually. Um, and to find the best combination of wing and, and riser system, let's say, um, took me quite some time.
So take me through again, the kind of deep power power that it it's, it's, it mirrors have a cow kite surf works. In other words, when you you're pulling in the bar, you're increasing, the, the, you're increasing the pole, you're increasing the power.
Yes, exactly. When
you let it go, you're decreasing the power.
Exactly. So, um, how a flare system looks, we have, um, uh, the, the break handle and from the break handle, there are two lines going away. So the first line is the break line, just going through a trailing edge of the wing, just like a standard paragraph. And then there's a second line, which is going through a pulley on the sea level.
Mm-hmm.
So there is a pulley system on the sea level, which basically splitting your input from the break by one third. So one third of your break input is translated to the sea level. And then from the sea level, there is another line going through the B level, which is already, or again, splitting or dividing your input by two again from the sea. So one third of your break input is translated to the sea. And one sixth of your break input is going to the B level. So basically when we depower for 60 cm, 30 cm, we, uh, we, we, we gain 30 cm of sea length and, um, 15,
um, no, so 20 cm sea length and 10cm, um, on the B and the opposite way around. Um, so what we're doing, We're changing the angle of attack of the wing the whole time, so it's like, so for all the the pilots who fly in two liners, um, it's the same as you would fully accelerate and pull it down your A and fly your wing with the B level. So that's basically the the exact same thing. So we're, you're then changing only angle of attack and not really the camber of the profile because you're not pulling the brake, but at one point with the flare system, when we keep pulling and pulling, pulling at one point, the brake is also activating and then we, we change angle of attack plus camber if
We are basically approaching the the the slow speed position. We can decide if we want to translate our speed into height or our height into speed at our fingertips, basically. So, if you think about in paragliding, if you go if you go into a steep turn, you don't really have the the possibility to then stay down, keep your speed, and decide when you want to go up; you will go up anyway. And that's the cool thing, which gives you just so much more more possibilities playing with the ridge, um, especially during soaring, um, but also, well, speed flying. But for speed flying, we have now another product, product line.
Yeah, it's just a soup. super fun system um and yeah for for all the kiters like you said it's like exactly like you have your your kite bar in your hand and that's how you also steer and
Is does this translate into a wing that you said? It sounds incredibly playful to me. That's how kites are, you know, on the water and the snow, you know, soaring. Do you, do you end up with something that translates to a lot more energy, or is it more carvey? Are we, are we more, you know, is it kind of skateboarding, or is it would be the analogy here, you know, is um, I'm trying people who have only flown, or maybe even only kite surfed, what does it feel like? How is it different than me going out on a mini wing and and standard mini wing and soaring?
So, I would say it's very dynamic. Um, so the, yeah, the dynamic you can pick up during a turn when you put hands up is just crazy. So, when you go on a turn with hands up, you take up so much speed, and then whether you can just, you know, just keep your hands up and take the speed and go far and flare, or you pull the brakes and you get this full energy—or not, not 100 from it, for sure, but most of it back again—and you gain the height again, which makes it a very dynamic wing, especially the small sizes, because the small sizes are for sure also more agile.
So, um, maybe about the sizing, which is also a good point right now, is that in paragliding, usually you have your takeoff weight, whatever it is, 100 kilos, including your, your equipment, and you're flying whatever, an L wing. Um, but you are flying the L wing, but with parry kiting or flaring, it's more like kiting where you change your wing size with the wind strength. So, if it's more wind, you just go down to a smaller wing and vice versa. So, that's about the sizing, so You can fly your 15 meter
with 100 kilos, which would be way, way, way more dynamic than your 22 or 26 meter, and that's also an important point to understand if you get into flaring. Also, if you already flown mini wings, you will get so much more speed with the same size, or if you compare it to the same size paraglider, that it's better to start with a bigger size. So let's, let's say you flew already a 15 mini wing and you're comfortable with it, it's better to get the 18, start with the 18, because you will have the same speed as your 15, but you will have way more dynamic turns because of this energy retention you have available, so
I hope you get a bit of an idea how the wing flies. Is there any
From a traditional standpoint, are there any downsides? Is there, are there any warning, you know, by by dynamic that means to me there's a lot more fun, but is it a lot more speed and energy and risk too? Or how, what would what would be the non-marketing
tackle that if
We're talking about steep turns, or let's say, let's let's keep it for, um, let's compare it to the to a deep spiral, um...
Traditional paraglider, if you really go into a deep spiral, you will get a lot of G-forces, but compared your your sink rate is not crazy high. So let's say you have like, you go in a spiral with like a descent rate of like 15 meters per second, you already have proper G-force where you know an untrained person really needs to focus, you know that you're not blacking out, basically, which is not really
A good thing, because you're not going to be able to do a lot of turns, but but you will gain a lot of jump Participantazione the case.
with the mustache because the mustache, you, you're, your, your um sync rate is way higher compared to your gforce and your turning speed, so you would basically because you will do the deep spiral with hands up, so in your full speed position, so you will go more down instead of really going in the rotation, um, and that's why you can gain, or you can have way higher descent rates with way less g-forces, and that's what you basically, so when you're used to your g-forces on the paraglider and you're trying to do the same spiral, or to get the same g-forces with a mustache, you're descending with like 35 to 40 meters per second basically, which then results in like crazy loss in height in a very short period of time, which can be dangerous because if you don't know how the wing takes up the speed, you know the ground gets close really fast, so that's one point, that's a dynamic side of things, but then also in, in slow flight, I would say there is a disadvantage to the classic paraglider because when
We pull the brakes, we're constantly pulling also B and C down, so we are constantly, constantly all the time also increasing the angle of attack on the leading edge itself, because in a paraglider the leading edge does not get any, any pull on the B when we pull the brakes, basically. So the, the angle of attack on the leading edge basically stays the same, which is not true because we're flying slower. So the, the angle of attack will change anyway, but with the flare system we have both effects, so we are increasing the angle of attack on the, on the leading edge because we're pulling down the B all the time, or the further we go down, the more we pull the B and we go slower, so the angle of attack is again increased.
So basically, what it means that the airflow is separating a bit quicker from the leading edge top sail than with a normal paraglider, so your overall stall speed will be a bit higher because the, the point of separation or the, or the, let's say that this, yeah, the stall speed is higher because the airflow separates a bit easier from the leading edge because we increase the angle of attack on the leading edge a lot, which does not mean that it's dangerous because you really feel it. Um, so it gets really hard on the bottom, um, or, or in your slow speed position, um, so you can really feel you're close to the, you're close to the stall point, and you better be careful, basically, um, which
Is also the case with the paraglider, but the stall speed is for sure a bit higher if you compare the same size paraglider to the same size moustache, yeah.
It sounds pretty critical then, to the, you know, when you first grab one of these wings, you've got to understand the differences and, and probably work in slowly to understand the differences, understand, you know, the, the potential for, you know, height loss really fast, and then, then the, the necessity to keep your, your airspeed up.
yes, yeah. So basically, what we—what we did, and also still do, is um, we do, let's say, a safety call. So you can order the—you can order mustache directly on our homepage, but if you're not coming from a partner from us, um, you will basically get a call from us and we will just, you know, chat with you, talk to you what your experience is, if you maybe, or if we think you should maybe get a different wing, like size-wise, so if you have experience in paragliding since whatever, one year, and you order a 13 mustache, we would maybe, um, you know, put our weight to it and send you a, but no, it's, it's basically that we, we want to make sure that people really understand the system and have watched our videos, um, and in the best case, even, um, take a small course, um, take a small introduction with our pro partners, um, and they will basically show you all the points you, you need to get safely into the sport of flaring.
If you get a wing, or if you try a wing, um, you can use it while ground handling first. Do whatever, 10, 15, 20 minutes of ground handling. Feel the stall point, know how it behaves with the stall point. And we also have some some markings on the riser where we have basically the best glide position, the I mean full speed positions, anyway, pull the arms up. Um, but for the beginning, the the best glide position marking is a really good reference. um where the where you're basically in the middle of your um range of motion take take your time ground handling for sure um because ground handling anyway, you get such a good feeling for, for a wing, you could anticipate how it would react in the air, so
Benny, the the the because this is an audio podcast, the listener didn't get the benefit of watching what you're doing with your hands when you're describing, you know, when you're pulling down, it's it's deflecting the the brakes, but it's also deflecting the C's and B's, uh, and but you were saying, I just want to make sure we don't confuse, you were saying that's increasing the angle of attack. I, in my mind, that's decreasing the angle of attack. You know, when we when we're accelerating a wing hitting our A's, we're increasing the angle of attack. Is is this just semantics, or am I misunderstanding something? So
Basically, well, in paragliding, when we—when we pull down our A's, we're—we're changing the angle of incidence. So, the—the angle between, let's say, if you draw a line between leading edge and trailing edge to your—through your wing, watching it from the side. And then we are, as a pilot, we're basically like a pendulum, um, below our wing. So we always want to—to go underneath the center of—of lift from the wing. So, if—if the wing moves forward, we are behind the center of—of lift, and we go—we—we're—we're, um, pending underneath the wing again.
So, to have a stable system, we want to be really, um, straight downwards from the center of—of, um, lift. So, but what we are doing now, if we pull down the A, we are basically changing the line
between leading edge and trailing edge of our wing, so we are bringing down the leading edge and the angle between the airflow and this line going through our wing is getting lower, or is getting getting smaller. So basically, that's our angle of attack. So our glide path, our glide path, the angle of attack is the glide path, or the angle between the glide path and the angle of attack, this line going through the leading edge and trailing edge of our wing. So if we decrease this angle, then we need to go faster because we still need to create the lift of whatever, you know, weight which needs to be supported.
So we're accelerating. So now the wing creates the lift of, let's say, 100 kilos with a way higher speed, and the same goes if we increase the angle of attack, we still only need 100 kilos of lift, but We can go way slower, so it's basically
Basically, the the polar of the wing is, um, is dependent from the speed we go, and we want to change the speed if we hit the accelerator, um, um, and that's why with the flare system or the moustache, it's basically we're doing the same thing, but we're doing, you know, the trailing edge. So we're not pulling down the leading edge like on the paraglider to change this angle, but we're releasing the trailing edge up, so we're still changing the angle in the same direction as we would pull down the a on the paraglider. So accelerating is hands up, and going slower is hands down.
And if you tried the first time, it really feels intuitive, um, within the first 10 minutes of ground handling, um, you will feel—I mean, you will not feel everything from the wing, but you, you get a pretty, pretty good idea of how the wing would feel flying it. What's
It like, it's great to understand it that way. What's it like to, you know, jump back and forth? You know, you're flying the mustache for a few days and then you go jump on your XC glider. Is it, is it your radio radio rattle your cage a little bit, or is it become pretty natural? I'm actually
the wrong person to ask, because I did not touch my XC glider since I think now four years, I think, wow, really? Yeah, because um, I'm actually, I'm actually only only fairing anymore. Um, if I want to go XC, um, I basically just started um flying gliders, um, and so flying gliders is just so much more efficient than going with the paraglider on cross country flights, um, and yeah, I mean, when I really flew a lot, uh, in in the beginning when I started with Skywalk, um, I for sure flew all the flew all the the two-liner prototypes we had, and we went on cross country flights, um, but it never really
catched me. It never gave me this, yeah, I would say this adrenaline kick, but what gave me this kick is flying on the five meter dune with a 15 meter mustache, um, and just being, being able to fly so precise with whatever, you know, like half a meter or even centimeters off the dune with 60ks, um...
And always being able to just pull the brakes and just take off and have this safety margin of of this extra speed, which you kind of have also in paragliding, but it's a different—it's a different dimension, um, of this energy retention you get with the mustache. Yeah, fascinating. Wow. So, yeah, um, to to to to to go back to your question, um, I've I did I did a lot of research on paragliding and I touch a paraglider, um, a few weeks ago when we were on a test trip in, um, in Denmark. I I flew, uh, the the Enzo, um, from a friend and, um, yeah, first of all, launching in because it was pretty windy.
I mean, I know it's fine, um, I could still fly without accelerator, but it was still windy, um, and if you if you're used to the to the flare system where you can basically, you know, you can pull up a 22 meter in 20 knots of wind, you know, if you have space and nothing is tangled, then there is, there is no issue at all. But if you, if you just, you know, pull up a 22 meter Enzo in, in 20 knots of wind, you better know what you're doing, um, and this, yeah, I mean, for me, for me, there is not really a way back, um, I would say, for the flying, I do for cross country flying, 100, 100, um, the, the current two-liner designs out there are, let's say, overall, the better system for cross country, um, because there is one more point I did not mention before, which can be also a bit irritating at the beginning when you start flaring if you're a little bit underpowered, so
You have to basically scratch the flyer, and then you have to scratch the flyer, and then you have to scratch the flyer for, for lift, and scratch to stay up. Then it gets pretty exhausting with the mustache because you're basically holding one-sixth of the load from the B level and one-third of the load from the C level in your hands all the time, so
They're really suited to flying in ridge lift and wind. I mean, I would assume it's nicer when it's laminar wind, but that you want some wind with these things, if that, unless you're just descending to, you know, on a speed route or something, so
That's also why we have two different products, okay? Um, so we have the mustache for soaring and the line for speed flying. Um, so the mustache is made to basically stay up, so your arm position where you fly for your best glide ratio, I would say, is totally different than on the line. So the line is basically made to go really steep and really steep.
and then you have to
and have the possibility to basically glide away from the from the slope, um, or do do a glide out or whatever, or have a really flat, um, takeoff, so where you need the glide ratio, and then you, you drop into a line, whatever, um, but the line is not made to to fly or to to fly for a long time in your best glide ratio, because this the sweet spot where you need to fly with your brakes is really low, so you basically, um, you're on the edge of not pulling down the brakes, but more pushing down the brakes, like before, before landing, um, when you, when you just before stalling the wing, you're basically pushing down the brakes, um, and that's really exhausting over time, so if you're soaring with the line, you need a lot of wind and a really good
lift, and you have a lot of updraft that you don't need to fly that low all the time. Um, so you want to fly the moustache and the especially parry kites, um, I would say more powered. So whether it is a bigger size in the same wind speed, or um, a smaller size in more wind, um, but you want to have this extra of lift, basically. Um, you want to, you want to leave, or you want to use the wind speed, the, the, the potential to go full speed, um, with arms up, because otherwise you're, you can't use it. You know, if you can't get up, you, you can't use your, your, your height and translate it to speed.
I
hadn't realized I, I love that the company is Flare, and that's actually the name of the... I mean, it is this. It sounds like this is now a unique sport called flaring. I hadn't realized it is
It is, it really is. And, um, especially I would say in, in the Netherlands, um, so I was on the test trip, I think three weeks ago, in the Netherlands, um, and I did not see a standard parry kiter flying there, really. But I have seen, I have seen like 25 parry kites. Yeah, wow. So for soaring, like in, in Denmark, in Denmark there's still, and you know, a lot of German pilots go to Denmark, um, because it's just so easy flying. Um, there are so many soaring spots, always laminar wind, you have space for ground handling, a lot of, you know, a lot of, um, travel groups, paragliding travel groups, um, ground handling courses go up to Denmark, um, and there is not 100
parry kites yet, but in the Netherlands there is already, I would say, yeah, 75% really with a parry kite system. Wow, um, so there is, um, there's little cloud. Now they, they released the wing and they also released already, um, a riser to basically upgrade your, um, your, uh, other little cloud wings you already have, um, to a certain extent, um, for sure not with the same range, um, as you get with other, um, other wings, but you get the—basically, it's, it's nice to get into, into flaring into parry kiting because you don't get the full range, or not as extreme range, I would say, but it gives you the idea how this, how the whole system works.
It's a little bit of a step over from paragliding to flaring, um, and then there are just more, more radical designs, I would say, with, you know, old race kites modified with risers and it's like Netherlands is, uh, um, yeah, I would say that the Netherland or the Dutch flying community, um, they are, they are unique. I would say they're
fully adapted
They're convinced, yeah, so
Wow, no, but but we are very, very, um, optimistic for the future of soaring. Doesn't matter if it's really only inland soaring or coastal soaring, but parry kite system is, is, is really, really, um, or outperforms, um, the paragliding for sure, and
You mentioned that, you know, right now an Enzo standard two-liner is still, you know, totally the way to go if you're flying distance. Could that change with this system? Is there a way that there's a tweak in the mustache down the line in the future that would? Yeah, it's, it's quite interesting because there was an article in the last Cross Country Magazine, uh, with Honor and Amard, the French champion, who's saying that basically, you know, the shark nose two-line concept, uh, you know, the current Enzo really can't be improved. It, they've kind of hit, they've kind of hit the wall there. You know, there's little things, uh, little adjustments, but you know, the Enzo three has been out now for what, seven, eight years, um, and and so could the parry kite system be the next, you know, the way forward potentially?
That's
A really, really good question. Um, and I don't have the answer yet, um, but for my, for my vision of where the whole parry kiting sport, um, could go, or in which disciplines it could go, I don't really see too much in cross country, um, because you're, you're flying, you, or the goal is to fly as long as you can, basically. In cross country, to go as far as you can, um, if we break it down to the basics, so you can't, you know, you can't make a record cross country flight in three hours, um, you will have to exceed basically 10 hours of flying, um, but
Then it's just very physical because you are, you want to stay up, you, you want to glide far, but you don't want to go down in a way, you know, you want to go forward. Um, and with the mustache and the parry kites, and in general, it's more like at one point we want the lift to really break down that we go down and not forward. We want to stay on the ground and then translate this energy, um, to height again. So it's a bit of a different, a different requirement, um, you're asking of the wing because, as I said, an Enzo is made, or a two-liner cross country wing is made to go forward, to have the best possible glide range or glide ratio also in full speed bar, um, and
That's not what we want, soaring on a dune, for example, because we want to keep dragging our feet in the sand. And if a gust hits you and we get more lift, we want to find a way to get rid of this lift, exactly. And that's what you don't need for a cross country flying, um, and that's why I don't see a too big of a potential in cross country with the system as it is now.
gotcha not
saying in five years we, whatever, um, have an idea and it's, yeah, or someone else has an idea, um, yeah, there are many, many smart, um, designers out there, so sure, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, we... we can never really predict that kind of stuff, can't we? Uh, final question, because I know we're up against a time stop here for both of us, but the... is this wing you mentioned that, you know, if you come from a kite surfing background, it's very intuitive, it feels very familiar, you can learn it really fast... is there... are there groups? Are there... is this a... is this a wing that isn't appropriate for a certain kind of pilot? You know, for example, a 10-hour pilot who's just barely getting their novice rating, is... is this isn't an advanced wing? Is an advanced concept? It doesn't really sound like it, but um, you know, are there any warnings we need to put out there in terms of, uh, you know, for the pilot community who's inspired as I am from your stories?
Um, I would not, I would not put a general warning out there, but I would rather give advice, um, for new pilots or kiters who want to get into flaring or peri-kiting, um, take
your time, and not, you know, not just get a second-hand wing somewhere and just go flying. Um, take your time, take, take an a course or introduction from a partner, really take or go to a spot where all the, let's say, all the the the risk factors can be eliminated. I would say, I mean, you, you never can get rid of all the risk factors, there will always be some, some risk. Um, but it's, it's a different story if you are at the, at a cliff launch with 20 knots, or if you're standing on a sandy beach with 20 knots and can ground handle the wing up a sandy dune.
You know, sure, instead of being on the clip launch and, or a cliff launch and need to launch up there. Um, so the spot is very, very crucial for Let's say the skill level you need to fly a parakite safely, if you have, let's say, a cliff with, you know, some some some lips, um, to that, like some some some ribs, and the wind is not coming straight on, but a little bit from the side, so you get basically turbulences behind those those ribs going out of the ridge. Um, that's something which can be very, yeah, you you don't really see it too with the parakite, you can stay down really easy, so you can you can fly very um, very low to the ground, and then you can go into those um turbulences, and then um, you could get a collapse for sure, but um, yeah, so in the beginning, for sure, take some lessons, get an introduction, watch all the the videos.
There are there are safety videos um, on our home page or on YouTube. Um, you will get a idea of the whole system, how it works. Maybe it's nothing for you, maybe it is, um, but yeah, overall it's, uh, it's a small revolution, at least for soaring. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm really optimistic for the future, so
Benny, would there be anything, you know, here at the end that you'd want to put out? Is just a message of advice for people, you know, getting into flaring, you
know, I just want to put out the, or make clear that that the most dangerous part about parakiting is that the pilots get really confident and overconfident really quick, and that's where the accidents happen, or can happen. Um, so what I want to say is basically that you get more range, or you can handle more wind while soaring, but you should use this extra range for safety, you know, if the wind increases and not push yourself, or place yourself already on the upper limit. That's the message I want to, I want to put out there.
Benny, uh, we're glad there are people like you in this world. You've, uh, you've done something really cool with your team there, and, uh, uh, it's great to learn about this, about flaring. Like I said, I didn't even know that was a sport, so, uh, that's terrific. And this is some of the videos I've watched are just awesome; it really looks fun. So I look forward to getting my hands on one of these myself, but thanks for sharing all this information. I really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time and, uh, staying up late, and, and, uh, good luck, man. Yeah.
Nice, uh, having me and, um, thank you so much. And yeah, see you somewhere, uh, at Lake Kimsey. Perfect.
perfect if
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