Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I've got a great show for you today with King of Mastalerts down in New Zealand. You all know her from a couple of X-Alps campaigns. She's a guide and instructor and been all over the world. Her website is girlgonewild, and that kind of fits how she approaches life. I had a lot of fun with this. She was highly recommended by a number of people. Of course, I interviewed King after her first Red Bull X-Alps, and she was eliminated in that one. We talked about some of the mistakes she made in that interview, and that was kind of a roundup with a whole bunch of the athletes that year. This was a chance to kind of sit down and do a longer one with what she's been up to.
I wanted to talk to her about her hike and fly race in Wanaka. That sounds really cool. She's got a race similar to the one I organized, the Global Rescue X-Red Rocks, but a different format. It sounds like a blast. I'd love to get down there and do it someday. But we cover a whole range of things in this interview. We talk a little bit about this year's X-Alps. I got to spend some time with her at one of the launches, I think day three above Kimsey, and interact with her team a little bit. But we talk a lot about how she got into this. And her travels and getting into guiding and her rather scary brush-up. And she was kind of in the heat of the moment of, I'd call it, intermediate syndrome.
I think that's what she called it as well. But just being awfully aggressive early on and getting lucky and having to kind of reset how she approached the sport and risk. I think some of that's going to be really valuable for many of you. So, yeah. Enjoy this talk with Kinga. A little bit of housekeeping right before we head into it. As this comes out, this will be one or two days after registration has opened for the Red Rocks Wide Open, U.S. Nationals comp that I run down in Utah with Logan Walters. And we've got a great team on that. And that'll be the kind of warm-up event for the World Cup, which we haven't had a World Cup here in the States since 2012 in my hometown of Sun Valley.
So, that's exciting. That's middle of September. You'll find out information on the World Cup at the PWCA website and for the Red Rocks Wide Open on civilcomps.org's site. Just do a search for either of those. And it's also on Air Tribune. But the registration will be through Civil. Hope to see you all there. It's going to be awesome. Oh, and we've also got the application period is closing pretty soon in a couple weeks for the Global Rescue X Red Rocks. Some big names coming. One from Europe this year. And it's going to be an awesome event, as it always is. So, check out all those. And we'll see you in September in Utah. Hope you're all getting some great spring flying. And enjoy the show. Cheers.
Kinga, welcome to the Mayhem. We're having some technical difficulties here, so I can't see you. But I trust you're still there down in New Zealand. Sounds like you're doing some guiding. And we will – I want to spend most of the time talking about this very – this very cool hike and fly race you've been organizing the last few years. It was one of your participants who reached out and said, "You've got to get Kinga back on the show." And I said, "Yeah, I've been meaning to do that forever." So, that was a good reminder that I needed to get you on here. But I thought where we could start was the last time I saw you, actually, physically was at the launch above Kimsea in the last X-Alps. But we'll talk about that. But welcome to the show, and thanks for joining me. Hi, Gavin. Amazing to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Your podcast has been a never-ending source of inspiration for so many pilots worldwide. So, it's really good to be here again. That's good to have you back on. The last time was right after the 2017 race, I think. They all kind of gelled together. Do I have that right?
2019. Yeah, it was my very first Red Bull X-Alps in 2019 for me, yes. Nineteen. Okay, yeah, 19 and then 23. Okay, yeah, of course, I was thinking 2017 with all the bad weather.
But, well, much has happened since then. You were a pretty new pilot back in 2019, as I recall, and you're kind of just getting into it.
And the adventure game was big in your soul, and so you stepped up to the
X-Alps. And I know that ended in some ways on a disappointing note, you know, getting eliminated, but you had a good run. Yes, so when I applied for my first Red Bull X-Alps in 2019, I was a pretty fresh pilot. I was flying for four years, and I felt so new and so overwhelmed and so inexperienced. And I was so inexperienced, comparing to all the legends out there, you included, who've been doing it for a long time.
And, you know, even meeting all these amazing pilots and athletes out there at the start line of Red Bull X-Alps was such a big thing for me. Meeting all these legends and being able to race with them and mostly learn from them. So for me,
it was most important. It
was mostly a learning experience and an adventure. I obviously didn't try to win anything. And most of my racing, I've done also some other races, not only the biggest and baddest Red Bull X-Alps, but the X-Pyr and Eiger Tour and Born to Fly. There's plenty of really fun races out there. And all of them I've done mostly with a focus on adventure and learning experience, because what we can learn from pushing ourselves day after day with this very laser focus towards, you know, moving towards our destinations, and while having all the great pilots and athletes around us doing similar things and seeing what choices they make, how they fly, how they use the day and conditions.
Having all the safety network that's provided by your team, by the organization of the race. Yeah, that's an incredible opportunity.
It's an incredible
opportunity to learn and this learning curve on my first 2019, in particular, this first big race, 2019 Red Bull X-Alps, was immense. So as you said, I was pretty disappointed to be basically at the very, very last elimination round on the 10th or 11th day, I got eliminated with this just absolutely silly mistake with navigation. Basically, we turned in the wrong, we took the wrong turn, basically. And, and after, after this incredible chase and growing and grow, growing race, not to get eliminated, I was so heartbroken, but also to do such a simple navigation, navigating kind of mistake after the, after 10 days of Red Bull X-Alps, who hasn't been there racing, hasn't been so overwhelmed and exhausted and with the whole team on sleep deprivation, and kind of not knowing also for the first time what I was really signing up for.
It's very easy now to laugh at it, but back then, back then it just showed how, how exhausted we all were, how overwhelmed I was. And at the end, as a result, I was pretty heartbroken and it took me actually weeks, if not months to get over this, this race. I was just so exhausted. I didn't even want to fly anymore after the, after the first Red Bull X-Alps. It felt like it was just too much. And also now I understand and we all to some extent. Have it, it's like Olympic blues that after such a big event that has been in your center of your focus, attention, training for so long, you've been preparing for it and thinking about it and focusing on for so long in the time leading to the event after, after done, it's like, well, now what, so you really need to learn to, to, to, to, to keep rolling and find other goals and also learn to learn to relax.
After, but also learn to, uh, come back and find other goals and adventures to it. So this first Red Bull X-Alps was definitely life-changing in this sense. You, and I, as I recall, you were planning on doing the 21 race, but you had an injury. Is that right? Yeah. So 21 was a particular difficult, difficult year because we were still, uh, in the lockdown, New Zealand was quite a, for quite a long time. Uh, you know, it's, it's an Island far away from everything and, uh, and it was
quite a long time. It was
quite a long, not lockdown in the
sense that we couldn't do things, we could do things within New Zealand, but moving in and out from New Zealand was very complicated. It was basically no
planes coming back was complicated with like expensive and long lasting quarantine and et cetera. But also, uh, but also then training for it on top of it, training for it, I, I got a stress fracture of a little tiny bone in my foot. I was experimenting with, uh, different shoes and it didn't go very well. And, um, so, and it was misdiagnosed for a long time because it was very weird type of fracture. And, uh, and I got to the point at some, I got to the, to the point where some, some doctor asked me that maybe it's in my head. And of course I knew that it's something, you know, you know, your body, you know, that something is wrong there. So it was finally diagnosed and, uh, and, and, and, and because it was misdiagnosed for so long, uh, it wouldn't heal itself.
I needed surgery. And then with all the surgery. And then with all the COVID issues around traveling, uh, it just really felt like the universe wasn't cooperating, uh, yeah, but the same time, uh, but the same time, uh, it meant, it meant that I did 2019 that I missed 2021 and I did 2023. So basically I choose the years with better weather. Yeah. No kidding. Because 2019 was amazing. 2023 was really amazing. Yeah, exactly. Uh, it was, uh, it was insane. The pace in the race becomes more and more becomes, you think, oh, it can't get any faster. And then you see those guys moving faster and, and going for it even more. It's just getting what, what you think it's really redefining
again, again, what's possible for
the great athletes, great pilots
with the, this, this extensive support of the good team, how fast they can move through, through the Alps with the good weather. It's pretty mind blowing.
Yeah. Let me ask you something that maybe. I, I don't, I don't know, you know, there's so many emotions and so many things that go into the race. And like I said, I mostly want to talk about this hike and fly race that you're organizing down in New Zealand, not the X-Alps, but the, uh, the last time I did see you, it was, it was quite an interesting time to be an observer. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't in the race this time I was covering it as a
journalist and, uh, I had flown down kind of with the league group from their launch, uh, before the Kimsey turn point. And flew down with them down to the turn point and then kind of got set up at the launch that most of you went to, uh, above the, just South of the Kimsey, or I guess just West of the turn point. But it was kind of the beginning of the chain on the way to Lermous. And when I got up there, it was, uh, windy, uh, but it, it had been quite a bit stronger, uh, for, for most of the last, I'd been up there for a couple hours when you came through. And you were either in just not a great mindset or, uh, you know, it had a difficult day. I mean, obviously I, I, I wasn't privy to any of that.
I didn't see, but when you showed up, um, it, it seemed like a pretty emotional point for you and Chris and, you know, that had having watched the other participants, the other athletes go through, it was kind of a one out of 10. I mean, it was windy, but it was pretty, it was very manageable. And, uh, I, again, I, I'd love to just know where you were and if that played a role in, uh, how you felt about the race later on, because it was, you, you seemed quite overwhelmed. Do I have that right? Is it, was that fair? I remember when we met, um, uh, it's interesting that this is the impression when we gave, because I didn't really feel overwhelmed. Uh, yeah, I remember, I remember this time we took, I took quite a bit of time to kind of.
Take off, but not so much because I was overwhelmed or because I was afraid of the wind, but because I wanted to kind of make sure that what I'm doing makes sense. And there was a moment when quite a few pilots took off and landed
basically back where they started. Uh, there was a, there was a couple of pilots who actually got away and started flying and just kind of flying. It was also a couple of pilots who hiked higher and flew off. Yeah. And there was also a moment that Ellie, uh, flew off a little bit higher. And I felt like, well, uh, like, you know, just kind of this decision-making process a little bit, okay, let's, let's not rush it. Because if I go back to where I started, I can always do this, you know, that's easy to, to go back to chems. And, and, uh, to be honest, um, this 2023 race for me, wasn't too emotional at all. If anything, I was maybe it's funny to say it about Red Bull, but it was maybe too chilled when it comes to this particular race is the same way.
And it was very interesting to observe myself. Uh, in it because, uh, in, uh, 2000, you know, I had, I had two races and four years in between them. And because I started as a really fresh pilot, when I came to 2023, uh, Red Bull X-ups, I was a completely different animal, completely different pilot. And I've been through so many more places and adventures and, uh, and, and, and mountains, uh, you know, since 2019 that, uh, in some ways the racing and Red Bull X-ups itself. Um, didn't turn the same, um, the same drink in me didn't overwhelm me in the same way. Didn't, didn't feel like it's a, it's just felt, and I know it's, it's unpopular thing to say about Red Bull X-ups, but just felt like a race, you know, it just felt like, oh, let's see, let's see and play without much, much kind of pushing myself in the weird way.
I, I, and you can see it in the results that also, because, uh, at the end, I, I, uh, placed similar to, to my 2019. Race and, uh, but the whole dynamic of it, first of all, it was a very different pilot, but the dynamic was so completely different and, um, and, and, um, because of it, you know, Red Bull X-ups is, uh, in general, any big race, but Red Bull X-ups, the biggest we have, uh, requires this constant laser focus and real strong belief that it's worth it. This is worth to take a little bit of risk that it's worth to push farther than you would normally, that it's worth to, to, you know, hammer. It's on the, on the ground day after day, hour after hour and, uh, and, um, and, uh, and it's, it requires this constant high energy of like making fast decisions and going for it.
And of course, meticulous preparation and all this other aspects that happened before the race. And, and, uh, honestly, I realized in 2023 that racing per se somehow served the purpose for me within this time leading actually to 2023. And doing, you know, X, uh, experience 2022 and all this other smaller races, uh, which can be smaller, but can be as fast and as, as, uh, demanding as, um, as the bigger races, just in the shorter, shorter term. And, uh, and I really felt, uh, the aftermath of the, of the race, uh, in 2023 for me was really like, well, I actually happened to push myself and do more exciting things.
When I go by myself in the, somewhere in the Himalayas or in the New Zealand Alps, uh, doing things that I found kind of in the way more committing, more exciting than, uh, than, than what I, what I've done during, uh, Red Bull X-Alps. So, of course, this approach, when you approach the Red Bull X-Alps with this kind of mindset, you're not gonna perform super well. And, uh, and also, and also in this particular race, you could see it. I could see it multiple times, even when I was racing that, for example, we're coming to, to Lermos from, from Kemze and, uh, and I was flying from wherever, some random mountain and, uh, there was, you know, Zugspitze on the way and I had this beautiful cloud base.
And of course I didn't need it. I didn't need all this altitude, but how often can you fly above Zugspitze and wave to people? So I did this one term or more, you know, wave to people and Zugspitze cruised around and then had to spiral down all the way from like 3000 meters to Lermos. So
I had
to land in Lermos and run back up, and this is something that you shouldn't be doing if your main priority is, you know, performing as well as possible in the ranking, but I had so much fun doing things like this flying from Lermos then, you know, there was this famous, infamous little convergence that we basically hiked, uh, on the 80 meters up and took off, you know, you take off and if you don't get a very first, very first climb, uh, then you can as well get out of the harness and land immediately. It was very low takeoff and very fast store. And there was a local pilot who just took off from, from it, just, just in front of me and immediately bombed out. So it wasn't very, very encouraging. Uh, but, uh, but I took off and the cloud base and went basically all the way to Switzerland, uh, from, from, from there through the, some stunning, stunning terrain and, and, uh, and tagging turnpoints in the air.
And, and then, uh, I could have made a race race wise. I could have make, um, made a kind of more civilized decision, but then I decided to land above the snow line, walk to the pass and slip on the path, you know, wrapped in my wing, which also was more like, uh, oh, let's live an adventure there. I was like, I was really, I was really craving adventure and it wasn't great for my ranking neither because then my supporter Chris had to, had to get to me and, uh, and I didn't eat and I slept wrapped in my wing over, over Srebretta glacier rather in the high terrain. And there was a lot of. A lot of, um, issues with communication because the phones didn't work, you know, my batteries went flat, my inner, it was still working. So, so the organizers knew where I was, but at the end I got the yellow card for it.
Um, like, you know, like this was like reckless behavior. I was like, what are you about? It's the best for me. It's a highlight of the race. Even if it's screwed up my ranking even more for me, they're like, there was that bench. And then I realized that my head is really in the more in this kind of, um, um, curiosity. And adventure of, of, of going different places and, uh, and not quite in racing and you just shouldn't approach Red Bull, except, uh, if you want to perform well, that's not the way to go. So, um, so yeah, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say that those overwhelmed this time. I was just really in this funny way of taking, taking my time and kind of exploring different options. And, uh, and it also taught me that probably at least for now, the racing racing stories may be not good.
what I'm going for, like what my flying needs or what really turns me on. There's so much to flying, of course, hike and fly racing is one of the massive beautiful things you can do, but there's also so many other things that flying is, it can be. And you know, there's so many wild mountains to fly out there and so many beautiful places, so many adventures to have that are not necessary. So the racing for me always have been about learning and adding to my confidence and to this toolbox, because you can learn so much and then you can understand the mountains and your surrounding better as a result, fly better and go for bigger adventures.
But it was never truly the goal itself that I want to, you know, become the world champion of hike and fly or something something like this. That was never goal itself. The goal was always to learn as much so I can go for bolder and more beautiful adventures. So yeah, I think it's all part of the journey. Red Bull X-Alps itself has been changing dramatically within years and you've been doing it for a long time. So for sure you saw these changes even more, but even within these four years, you know, it doesn't go through the whole Alps anymore. It's more like a loop through the half of the Alps. There's more turn points where the athletes have to land.
So it's becoming more like a set of turns. So yeah, I think it's all part of the
journey. So it's becoming more like a set of shorter tasks, less this like big open lines, which are still there. Like in Italy this year, it was like more open, but the big part of it is really about like set of tasks, which make it kind of faster racing, but also racing that you can more like plan more precisely and so move faster, but also there's a little bit less wild adventure in it. And meanwhile, which again, just like everything is changing. And as we said at the beginning, the fact that it's happening faster and faster, this itself is mind blowing and super impressive. But at the same time, my flying and my soul goes a little bit more toward...
I even lately interestingly started, you know, like the sport is so focused on flying kilometers and the sport is so focused on, of course, on rankings, which we compete, but even if people don't compete, when we go cross country, cross country value is in kilometers. And at the beginning, especially, and also for many pilots forever, it's super important to fly kilometers. And this is where they find challenge and joy. But for me, I found at some point that it's so much more fun and so much more interesting to fly things that I found simply like interesting. "Oh, let's try if it works." Because if I have some really good day and very obvious line to fly, and I know that I can pull it off, then it's kind of planning and execution.
And then you just kind of want to do it as fast as possible, fly as efficiently as possible to maximize your distance. But if I do something that I'm like, "Oh, let's try to go into this valley or to this mountain. I haven't been there yet. Let's try to fly like this a lot in the sun up." That when you go a little bit deeper, it means potentially like a days of walking or night out. And "Oh, let's try to do this with this condition." And then it brings so much more joy and fun toward me, but it's pretty difficult to translate one-on-one kilometers. So yeah, I guess it's all part of the journey and we all find our way of flying and finding. I like to talk to my, when I coach, I like to tell my pilots that we fly the way we live.
And it translates in so many ways. Of course, if we are overconfident, it will come and bite our butt very quickly. But also if we are super shy, we won't go anywhere. If we are in some ways dishonest about ourselves, we can cheat it. We can hide it in the real life, you know, blame others or pretend that it's not us or create some narrative that builds over it. But in the air, it all comes out pretty easy. So yeah, that's it. Thank you so much for watching. See you in the next video. Bye-bye. So in the same way as we change within years, I believe that I want to think that we grow and develop and change in this way as humans. It also will affect our flying, but I also like to think that this journey of flying can also be very confidence building and can grow us as humans.
So well, that's all. When did you get into coaching? I got the very first little group I did. It was just before just before COVID started. A very lucky time to start anything. It was the beginning of 2020 and it was in New Zealand. And it was a really interesting experience and I realized that there's so much that pilots... And also the
inspiration for it was the fact that when
I learned to fly and I was already, you know, signed off and theoretically an independent pilot, I still had no clue what I was really doing. And you covered a lot in a podcast talking to pilots that, you know, that we just don't know what we don't know and we make all these random mistakes. They're often really risking our life because we just don't know. Because there's flying. Flying is quite a complex complex story. And first, we don't know what we don't know. Then we also think that we know, but we don't know. And then we go through our intermediate syndrome that we know it all. And in particular, I went through my intermediate syndrome in a very explosive and potentially dangerous way.
I kept making mistake after mistake and just couldn't understand that it's potentially dangerous. I was just, well, let's go. Let's go again. Let's go further, you know. And finally I got, I pushed it so hard, I got so scared that it basically like traumatized me, let's say, for next years to come. Like I would say that next three or four hundred hours I was flying, constantly questioning my decisions and thinking, am I doing anything stupid? And I'm like, is it okay what I'm doing there? I'm doing something completely random and I'm going to die. So it's like flying with this kind of trying to question my decision every time, especially coming from being, when I started flying, I was pretty fearless.
And getting from this to that was pretty harsh. Was that due to a singular incident or was it just a cacophony of incidents? You said you're making a whole bunch of decisions that were pretty questionable and it kind of added up or was it, did you go in hard or something? So, so just, just a kind of quick story, quick story. I, when I started flying, I discovered that flying is my thing. I was completely hooked. So I left everything, moved to Italy, to Bassano del Grappa in autumn and was flying there for whole autumn and winter. And it's a
very particular place to fly. You can fly thermals in autumn and winter, but it's all very weak. There's not much wind. The wind is anything. It always comes from flatlands. Then they have this obvious, this ridge. Yeah. The wind is always coming more or less from the south. There's no valley winds. It's not really mountain flying.
It's all pretty mellow. And you fly low, scratching close to the trees in winter, in autumn and winter, because, yeah, because it's all, it's, it's, it's weak. It's mellow. Yeah. So you get, so you get pretty, pretty used to these conditions and quite, and I, and after, after winter there, I got pretty confident and pretty fit. Efficient in this, in this type of flying. So when the first spring came, I was in this horrible place to be when I thought that, oh, I'm already flying similar flights that local seasoned pilots fly on a given day in this winter, autumn conditions in the place that I knew very well because I was flying there every day. So I'm actually quite a good pilot. Like if you need a, if you need a typical intermediate syndrome on steroids, that's, that was me exactly on my first spring.
Way overconfident and way under prepared. Absolutely. I knew it all. I was already super current in this very particular little bubble of conditions and this particular place. And then the spring came and, and my spring of obviously there's not only spring in Bassano was very different than autumn and winter, but also just to mix it up. I went to Switzerland. I went to Swiss ops in April and one of the, and then I, and I started making this like mistake after mistake. I was just, I was just, just to make, to make a long story short, the first, the first thing I did actually was to go over the lake. And I knew at the Villeneuve, it's a place where people train across. I was like, oh, I stole my glider for the first time. No clue what I was doing. So I just stole it. It obviously dropped behind me.
I panicked. I released it shot in the worst moment possible because it was exactly behind me, so it went into twist, etc. And I flew out and then I'm talking to locals about it. As I was, I tried this thing and they look at me like I'm completely crazy, but there's no boat. You had no, no jacket. What if you went to water would die? What are you thinking? I was like, oh, okay, right. That's not maybe, maybe that wasn't as safe as I thought it was. Maybe actually water wasn't, wasn't such a, such a safe, safe option. And then basically the next day I went to Verbier and, uh, and, and, and I did 2,600 meters. I thought I'm so high because in Bassano you always fly so long. But here you have multi thermos, 4,000 meters. Crossed the valley, put myself in the like little behind little spur in the, in the lee side of the valley wind and, uh, got a collapse, uh, overreacted, spun the other side and crashed on a tree.
Had no clue about it, about valley winds again. It's like, didn't know that low, what low means, what, what, what, how high I should be, what, what I was doing. And so, yes, getting off this tree was a cold story because it was 20 meter pine and there was a lot of snow. I was at 20, 200 meters. So it's still in April, a lot of snow. So the whole operation was pretty, pretty complicated, but make, making long story short, I got off this tree with the help of a friend, very capable friend, way more capable than I was. I spent the next day detangling my wing and, uh, like reattaching the risers that became a bundle of like the whole lines became a bundle of shame, of course. So after this whole day of drying my wing and the touch and reattaching things, I took a train back home and I, and I, uh, I, I, I came back in the evening, uh, to, to Bassano.
I'm back then home was in Bassano. I had this little apartment there, uh, rented from a friend. And I kid you not, I thought at this point for the first time, I thought, okay, I, Bassano, maybe a little bit like not quite enough. I need to new places. I need to learn new places and learn how to fly. But also Swiss Ops in April that might be a little bit too much for me right now. Yeah. So I need something, I need to find a way to, to progress through my flying. And, uh, so tomorrow I'm not flying. It was a very important moment in my flying journey because I was talking to me, talking to myself, um, tomorrow I'm not flying. The weather looks rubbish in the afternoon. The weather forecast looks like it's gonna, gonna rain. Uh, there's no reason.
So just spend some chilled, you know, day and, and process things and, and decide what I want to do, how I want to progress with my flying. Because that was the first moment when I felt like, okay, if I keep doing it this way, that's, that's not a great, great, that I'm in an important place, uh, to, to kind of decide what I'm doing with my flying in the future, this spring and summer. And it all sounded great. I woke up in the morning and I had this little apartment where one window was going to the takeoff, another window was over, kind of over the landing. So I saw the whole morning pilots, you know, Bassano del Grappa, very popular place. So I saw the whole day people, uh, coming to land. And finally, later in the morning, I was like, no, I can't, just a little flight, just a little flight.
I have to go. I was so addicted to flying that even after all this, all this conversation with myself, the bad weather, weather forecast, I was just so hungry and so greedy for airtime at this point that I just, I have to go. So I hiked up. It took me another hour altogether, you know, sort my stuff out. So I took off. So already I thought, okay, that's not a good place to fly. I need to push. That's not a good process. I'm not a good mindset. Then, uh, I'm late. The weather forecast wasn't great. I still, I still put myself, put myself, um, there. I'm flying. And the, the sky was covered with this kind of stratus cloud and, um, and, uh, that is okay. In winter, we fly like this pretty often. That's not a big deal. And, um, but it's winter. Spring is a little bit different.
And, uh, and I was maybe 10 kilometers away from the, from the takeoff. And I felt a little, uh, drop of, of, of, of, of, of, you know, rain. And even then, after all this, what happened, I could have just flown, I could have flown out and landed on the flatlands and just, there are plenty of fields there and just hitch back home. Like I'd done multiple times. I was landed on, I've landed in every field there around, around Bassano del Gapa, because this is where I started termaling and started, you know, going for my tiny cross country flights. And, but given then I was like, no, I don't feel like hitching. I'll just go back. I just fly back just this 10K. And, uh, and I never made it back because when it came, the storm that was the massive, like, cell that was overbuilding over the stratus that we didn't see when it finally, finally, finally, you know, developed, uh, then I put myself basically in the, I was still in the air in the, in the midst of a spring storm.
And I was trying to spiral dive. Then that was my spiral diving was pretty rubbish back then. So it was putting me toward the trees. And I just two days ago, I peeled myself off the tree, off the tree in the Swiss Alps. So I'm like, I'm not going to the trees. So I like big ears and speed bar, beep, beep, beep, beep, going up and again and again and took forever. And finally, finally, when I put myself on the ground, I was, I was pulling ears on this web glider. Oh my God, that was just such a mess. I had no clue what I was doing. Seriously. Finally, it went into the parachute hole that I didn't recognize. And just, I hit the ground pretty hard. The glider was so wet that, uh, basically this dust, like I thought it would pull me because it was so windy, but instead it made this like this wet sound and just fell down.
And I was, and at this point it was just, you know, I had to take off my glasses. I didn't see anything. Everything was wet. It was blowing and I'm laying on the ground. I hit pretty hard and I'm laying on the ground in this rain and thinking, I think I didn't break anything, but I will lay here for a moment. And think about my life choices and this really changed everything. That was such a close call and very, very slowly. It was 5k from home. Yeah. So very slowly packed everything. The glider was twice the size because it had so much water in it. Very brave glider. It was still four liner, you know, we're flying gliders that will, would go through everything unless you really tried super hard to pull big ears on a very wet glider. By the way, if anyone's listening to it, if you ever get into rain or some, get your wing wet, don't pull big ears.
Don't be hard on brakes as much speed as possible. Speed bar. Yeah. Stay on speed all the way to the ground. Obviously not to, not to the bigger angle of attack, uh, the, the, the worst it becomes. So, um, so, uh, that changed. So, so still in the helmet, I walked last 5k home and that's really kind of shook me as it should. So answering this question, question, uh, yes, there was a lot of, a lot of, uh, events leading to it, but at the same time, there was this one final, it was so, I was so lucky that it was, I made so many mistakes on this day from the very beginning of the mindset and not flying all the way to, to, to, to
recognizing the weather pattern,
trusting the weather forecast, being vigilant to the way to handling my glider, not understanding how the, actually like the fact that I didn't even know, you know, like I'm a physicist by, by, um, by education. And the fact that I didn't even connect that pulling big ears and being hard on brakes, it's not a great idea on the, on the, um, on the wet glider all together. It was just so mind blowing to me. And it took me a long, long time to trust myself again. And actually this time build the confidence start from zero and build the confidence that is justified with experience and actually knowing what you're doing, because you, you mentioned it. You were firmly in the grip of, uh, of intermediate syndrome. So every time it had to hold on you.
Yeah. So my intermediate syndrome was, was really, really full on and it took me a long time to rebuild from it. And, uh, it was a long and bumpy journey because we like to think about progression as a, some linear line that, that the more we fly, the more we, the better we fly and the easier everything becomes. And usually it's anything but linear, it's bumpy and, and, and, and crazy, uh, crazy land going up and down. And, um, and while traveling this line, I realized how much
it's involved both, uh, mentally and on the level of, of understanding the weather and topography and, and,
and handling your wing in different conditions and understanding the physics of flying and, and emotions and mindset and dealing with fear. So I've been through all this, uh, because I put myself in a really, really heavy way, uh, at the very bottom of, of this, of this line of fear and confidence after being overconfident at the beginning of my flying. And, um, and once I, once I finally punched through, and again, it was a long journey, it's a never ending journey, really. It just changes. Um, uh, but, but once I, once I came to the other side and gained, uh, some skills and confidence that was this time actually justified and, uh, support and backed up by experience and, and things that I, that I had done, uh, I thought, wow, that would be, that would be so cool to have someone during this journey who would guide me through, uh, it would be, it would have been so much easier.
So my coaching, basically the idea of it basically came from this aspect. Meanwhile, I got quite a bit into Volbivac flying and venturing, uh, into the mountains in this, you know, in a multi-day way. Uh, and also understood that of course it can be going for you know weeks and making the big trip but can be also your night out and and and and traveling through the mountains just you know going out there for a flight and just deciding that we are not coming back for dinner and and there's so many ways to to explore the mountains and so much to so much to do there so so coaching basically came from from this from this concept that we that that that now after after processing it all within years and hundreds it's not thousands now thousands of hours of flying that's something that I'm pretty sure other pilots might you know might be useful for other pilots and yeah and I started from there with a little group that were designed for kind of vol biv clinics so we would start with with with with flying as much as possible flying cross country understanding the mountains environment doing top landings super important and and and and takeoffs in different different places that are not necessarily you know astroturf and the windsock but the new places and and and making pilots understand what's what's involved what it means that they have a good place to take off somewhere in the wilderness what's a good place to land or top land safely etc all the skills that's usually when we just fly cross country or when pilots come out of school and fly in you know in the usual spots they don't necessarily necessarily think about it and also there's not so much well-structured knowledge out there because for a long time when I started flying Volbivac was basically this concept that it's only for some you know the best of the best the boldest adventurers in the world and to kind of bring it bring it to this level that it can be a fun thing to do and different ways for pilots who are relatively fresh you know you have 50 hour pilot and a good mentorship you can take them for a cool adventure in the mountains and basically you can see it again and again I take sometimes I work with I've been working with 30 hour pilots I've been working for with 2 000 hour pilots and of course the way I do and how I design this adventures this changes with the level and capacity of the pilot and the weather and and the terrain of course depending where we are but the um but the fact that you know that that even relatively fresh pilots can go out there and and and have a taste of of this mountain adventure and then get some tools and build on it to uh to to to start growing towards bigger adventures and create their own uh their own way of of flying and enjoying the mountains that's incredibly satisfying and a lot of fun to me to do so yeah I'm curious to know I've always been very hesitant to make a business out of something I'm really passionate about you're obviously incredibly passionate about flying but you've also created this is how I'm assuming you're you're paying the bills is you're guiding and and taking people on these adventures it sounds like it adds to it for you but is it do you ever see do you ever feel like there's uh you know you're kind of it's it's working against your love and your own passion for the sport or does it add to it that's a very very good question Gavin and yes we see it again and again that when you make your uh your passion into work
it just kills the passion and it's easy easy to do I've seen it also among friends and pilots who started flying tandems commercially and doing other stuff in this case still at this point and again we are all we all change as human beings as pilots so so at this point I really feel like it adds because um it's about you know you get with your flying to the point you at the beginning and or for some pilots forever you just pursue this personal goals and flying it's a very very solitary and
very egoistic sport if you wish it's really about your goals and your your performance and your dreams and very often you can see that it happens at the cost of other parts of your life or relationships or it's not a team sport really it's really about there's a lot of ego in the sport there's a lot of me my flying you know I'm the pilot and it's also justified because at the end it's all our responsibility our safety our decisions you are this little aircraft somewhere in the mountains you know we are flying a piece of cloth through the mountains and of course it should be all our you know with all our fame and glory for a little and bigger successes but also our risk and and and uh and our responsibility to make it right um so sharing it and sharing it sharing it with pilots uh who you know who come to learn and seeing how it can affect their not only flying sometimes I have pilots who keep coming back you know to um places with me or even the same places or even same trip because and and to see them again and again and see how they connect to different things that we work through and it can be of course about flying because part of part of what we do what I try to do with pilot and again depends on the pilot pilots come with different goals and expectations and skill level but what we what I usually try to do with pilots is not only about the time that we spend together that we go from some cool Adventure of course I want them to fly as much as possible and I always ask very what would be this perfect trip is it more about flying your first 100k or is it more about spending this night in a beautiful place and flying off into the sunrise is it more about you know beauty or challenge or kilometers or some or some other aspect of flying and then we try to make it happen but it's also about giving them tools and and knowledge and particular mindset and sharing the passion and and focus into particular things whatever you know I I see that made the most beneficial for them and then seeing them and then I get sometimes you know messages or sometimes I see them again after months or like next year they come back and and I see and they they tell me that it was sometimes I I really they say that it was life-changing that it's shifted perception of flying of of of relationships of that there's some really crazy stories that happen on the way that um that again can be it can be only about flying and flying you know and and going for some mission I want to come for three days I want to go Volviva it's like okay that's what we're gonna do but sometimes it really becomes this um this uh this incredibly incredibly complex and satisfying Journey to observe that they go through and just being able to guide them through it I also do a little bit of remote coaching with a couple of pilots so I actually haven't met them but I give them different tasks and we discuss different technical and and and mental uh and and emotional aspects of flying uh via you know via Zoom uh every week but also with different tasks and different things to focus on to train or to listen to um of course your podcasts are also usually on the list of of uh homework and and uh and uh and to see how it all comes together and how after this you know uh after after after this ups and downs of of the of my own paragliding uh Journey uh from and rebuilding my confidence and actually building the whole set of skills how I can help and guide others through it that's so that's so adds to my flying and yes sometimes it means that I have a 30-hour pilot on a record breaking day and I would like to go deep and and big and meanwhile we are just kind of taking it slow and easy but um but the same time I fly so much uh and I've been flying also for a few years that at some point you you realize that uh that uh that's really like a small small price to pay for all that you get uh get in return so definitely at this point it adds it doesn't bear me out it can be exhausting because it's a big responsibility to take someone especially in the kind of Wilder mountains when we go to I do it in the European out I do it in the in the New Zealand Southern Alps and I do it in the building in the Himalayas so so depending also where we are and and how how deep we go of course sometimes and how complex the weather system is and especially when I just meet a pilot this first day is always a little bit of a you know getting to know each other because I I I only know what we can truly do after I see a pilot flying so it can be pretty stressful it's I feel I feel a big responsibility for for making right decisions um but at the end incredibly satisfying so for now we've been working incredibly well so yeah I think I'm always I may be this exception for this rule that you know if you make work your passion that you will kill your passion for me just adding to it at this point I'm always fascinated by people's stories are often similar to yours and especially in that intermediate syndrome we all go through all these stages you know the the ignorant stage the the intermediate syndrome stage those stage we've talked about it a lot on the show but it's you know your your mistakes and your awakening are pretty you I've heard that from in obviously different ways not everybody lands in a tree and is okay and not everybody you know does a full stall over the water and doesn't realize how daft they're being you know but we've all done stupid stuff and we've all hopefully you know many people don't but you know hopefully we
can count on these cheap mistakes that to advance our confidence and risk tolerance and all the things that go into participating in the sport outside of a body bag you know you you have we don't learn anything from success we learn from failures and so it but the the penalty points for failure in the sport are so high that I'm not seeing anything new here that people haven't heard on the show I mean I just find it fascinating to it would be you must be in a fascinating position to be guiding people who potentially haven't had a cheap mistake yet and you're trying to keep them from having mistakes but it's hard to learn from success it's hard to learn without going in the tree it's hard to learn without landing in a full stall with a soaked glider you know the I I had that happen in the last race going to wa grind the first day I was on you know I'm a pretty I I've I've done 4x Alps I've been at this a really long time I was on a brand new glider and I was flying underneath the cell crossing the pins gal and you know everybody the lead gaggle was was heading into wa grind and I needed to be on the ground to go live and I was going under a cell that was you know it looked like it could be a little nasty and but in my experience it was not that bad it was you know it was pretty light rain and I had just watched the video that Chrigel had put up just right before the x-ops where he was purposefully flying in rain to go through various ways to get out of it you know so I mean that's that's kind of next level education but he was you know he was showing he was showing you know the use of speed bar and how the glider spins earlier when it's wet and you know going Parachutal how to get out of Parachutal when it's soaked and so I had just seen that when I was pretty low on the terrain and just turning and uh you know wasn't even but it was it was I it was the first day I'd flown that wing it was that it was the climber three uh and I'd only flown the climber two and was loving it it was fantastic and the glider went Parachutal on me and it was you know it was I was low enough that I thought I might have to throw my Reserve here that'd be pretty embarrassing you know as a journalist the very first day and end up in the trees and uh but I hammered speed bar got out of it started turning again because I was I needed the thermal to get out of where I was and went Parachutal again you know spun Parachutal had to do it several times and it ended up everything everything was fine but I later learned I was really surprised with how easily the wing went Parachutal and I later learned I mean this is 20 years into flying I later learned that when wings are brand new they're much more susceptible to to going Parachutal with a little bit of wet because the friction surface is different than after you've had a glider for even 10 hours and so I mean this was something that I'd never heard didn't know and could have been a way different outcome uh you know that may not have been a cheap mistake because I was pretty low and the and the trees were not that thick you know so I I may have spun it in and gone in you know between trees and really gotten hurt you know and so it's it's one of these just there's an infant infinite number of these possibilities in what we do where you hope for a cheap mistake maybe not that's really interesting yeah that's really interesting what you're saying because you know we like to say oh never fly in the rain but in part but it may happen in the mountains and to be honest it happened to me multiple times and actually when I was um coming for a first um not for the first Red Bull Excel so I was flying a different wing but when I was preparing for the second one and Hannes from Hannes Pappas from Fi was making Scala the first Scala I was like can you please make it fly in the rain and he was like well that's pretty difficult to test how do you want me to test it but this being this being said it's actually been flying through rain pretty well and again you don't want to push it too hard but at the same time so part of it for sure depends on the construction that's really interesting you're saying that the gliders that are new I I never I never
heard it but also I never noticed it because I flew two different gliders brand new for the in the rain 2019 and then in 2022 they were all new for experience experience the first four days were absolutely rubbish we're basically wet all the time we're hiking and we're wet all the time two weeks leading to expire we're amazing four seven cloud based mind-blowing and then started raining and of course it was raining for first four days of the year and I was basically wet all the time and I was pretty surprised that the two-liner can actually lightweight two-liner can fly so well because it also depends we like to we mostly fly this two liners lightweight gliders they also behave a little bit differently but I like to think that this B or C gliders that most of pilots fly it can take a little bit more water and can keep our pilots safe even if uh you know even yeah I think from what I was told it's the viscosity of the fabric when it's brand new it's it's almost you know totally weather waterproof and so the the water will will stand up on the fabric yeah and and basically just destroy the the flow of the air yeah yeah exactly detach it from the from the wing surface and so yeah it was you know I would not have even considered that I was in a dangerous position it was not raining that hard it was you know I'd flown through much much heavier rain and never had even a sampling of the problem now I've flown through heavier rain and been oh I better you know be thinking about this and been on speed bar and you know doing all the things that you want to be doing but this this really caught me off guard and
it's not I don't bring that up for that specific equation what you know what I'm more curious in is is how you have taken you know those those series of incidents that were kind of uh smack in the face like hey I gotta wake up if I'm
gonna survive this
yeah how you it's just it's an interesting thing to I don't even know if you don't even need to answer it but it's it's an interesting thing to then be guiding and you know try to navigate people through not making mistakes but it's hard it's it's hard to it's hard to learn without making mistakes it's impossible really so basically what I truly believe in and this is how I guide I give my pilots as much knowledge as they need for this particular day or or or trip or situation and try to build it with them this is why it really helps if I have at least a few days or if I have a clinic that goes for 12 days we really add structure to it so I give them as much understanding at the beginning about for example how to how to land safely in different ways how what to look for depending where what terrain we are at for example if we are in the southern apps we'll discuss really in depth the slope landings because this particular terrain has the pretty deep valleys with strong winds but but
slopes of the mountains are tree free cassocks forever you can basically land anywhere on the slope but you need to understand how to land on the slope if you've never done it we'll train for it and and practice in this way and then when we actually go out there I want them to be as well equipped as possible for this eventuality so they are not surprised so I try to build a structure for this particular task so they can you know they can they can be as because when it actually comes to it when it comes for example to landing out or when they put themselves in some some situation that involves I know top landing for example uh then if it's the first time they are doing it in a high stress environment it's not great yes I want to them to be able to learn and get used to the concept and big part of it happens actually on the ground while talking about it and sometimes pilots tell me that oh this flight today literally yesterday my pilot told me oh this flight was nice but actually everything that we talked about on the ground it's just life-changing for me everything that we discussed on the ground uh there's life changes completely no one ever no one ever told me about it you know and there are sometimes there are really basic things how to how to manage your gear on the takeoff how to hold your wing in the strong wind how to how to how to you know approach different uh how to understand the wind gusts and things that that uh may be obvious after many many years of flying but the 60 hour pilot very often they just have no no space and no opportunity to learn it so it's more about giving them as many as many tools and understanding what's uh what's awaiting and then a little bit of giving them space to do it and can you avoid any potential mistake from your pilot of course I have them on the radio Etc I mean you can't yeah technically they can always do something you know everyone can do something random but um uh but but excluding this really kind of moments that you don't think clearly or get like you know get some some get overwhelmed with something then uh that I that that I really believe that the more we understand the environment and want the more we can visualize what can potentially happen let's let's totally switch gears and uh leave that for another time but tell me about this race because it sounds awesome you've been I think you're this is the fourth year is that right yes it's a fourth year this year our fourth edition uh Wanaka hike and fly uh we call fun event hike fly socialize it's a uh it's a hike and fly event that that I organized here in New Zealand in Wanaka and the southern Alps in Otago um so the concept is that uh we have list of term points uh there's a map of term points and the easy term points or the pair points that are close to our start and finish line and I wish one point then two points three four points for far and and and and trickier technical
term points and and of course the concept is that you gather as many term points as you as you can or as you are bold enough to go for
because some mean that if you go you know it's New Zealand so some mean that if you go to the and land you will never not only make it to the goal which is 10 point penalty if you don't make it back before the cut of time but also it means it can mean a really long walk out uh you know and quite an adventure itself and um so uh so it is uh because because because it's a little bit different environment than let's say you know European Alps when the exact happens uh so it's not one route but it also means that we can have a environment and usually we have very well seasoned pilots and bold and self-sufficient who happily go in volvivac mode out there and go for this four point term points and we have pilots who are you know 20 50 hour pilots who just want to go for the first night out I want to go for the uh for the first kind of cross country with the safety net and we do extensive safety and extensive um weather briefing and we have daily weather briefings like a lot of support for pilots who are either new to the area or new as pilots so my whole concept behind it was to uh of course to challenge the public because to win the whole event you have to go pretty deep and you have to fly really well and usual the podium is taken by uh you know by pilots who went for some really really cool things and sometimes I was like wow they really they really went for it with the weather forecast that was maybe not so great but this and so it kind of shows you again what I love about races in general that they show you what is possible within a day when you're not thinking so much about oh I want to go back for dinner I don't want to walk out but you're like okay I'm going there for this term point it shows you that what's possible but also your set your set waypoints are they fixed you know that people can look at them weeks in advance are they fixed no matter what what the forecast is so when you you have a start and an end and regardless of the forecast people can go for whatever they want yes so we have a start and the end and the start is mandatory so like naturally everybody go to the same Mountain even different places higher lower right left because this is the closest takeoff to to the start line uh finish is also uh also they're always the same in Wanaka in the center of Wanaka but and turn points we change them so I change them every every year a little bit to make it more interesting especially for for local pilots who keep coming back so it's
not always the same and uh but they are published a few weeks in advance so pilots have time to get used to them and and kind of have different concepts for different weather conditions but then we brief on the
weather and to be honest a usual like for example this year on briefing I told them what I would do this is as an idea mostly for less experienced pilots you know if you are really bold you may think about going this way and then the wind is changing so may want to be on this side of the of the range or or something like this so we try to kind of support it as much as possible especially for lower uh lower airtime pilots but of course the higher airtime pilots have their own concept so they don't need so much support from um from our side and you've got two days to finish it so that's three days two nights out three days and to make it because you know that my heart is as you already as we already said my heart is more in the bivouac and Adventure part of racing that actual racing so there are bonuses for we have two night term points which is like a social part because if you if you get there you get five point bonus if you spend the night there which normally attracts pilots especially lower airtime pilots because if you go somewhere deep and you know spend the night out somewhere away then it may be still worth for you not to come from this five points but for especially lower airtime pilots and in general for everybody may be worse to go for this five points so you have 10 pilots in the camping spot you know sharing the adventures of the day coming from different places some might have just did a little sleddy and hike
up and then another sleddy
and hike up and then term a little bit and get to the term point some might have flown you know 150 kilometer on the day and get to this term point so there's a lot of a lot of sharing and the social part of it and there are also bonuses for spending a night out away somewhere just in the tent so it's one point for bivvy in your in your tent somewhere and two points if you are bivvy with another athlete so we are trying to kind of you know make people socialize a little bit and and find racing race buddies and again it's really fun for pilots who are lower airtime pilots that this one extra point will be of course worth it and again if you are going for some really big term points and big big big flights you may be focusing on something else so this is like you know the way of making it as much fun and as accommodating so still you have to fly and hike like a beast to actually win the thing but we also want to have as much fun for our pilot at the different levels and the weather there's no between the different levels there's no it's it's everybody's together in this race there's no divisions there's no pro and no we don't do divisions it's a small race we have 30 40 pilots participating and but we have a lot of cool spot prizes so it's not only podium but also we have the best adventure of the year which is always cool very cool prizes which is usually a pilot who went somewhere this year it was a pilot who who who flew really bold and really deep and then bumped out and spent the next whole day trying to walk out and never made it to go but went through some absolutely mind-blowing terrain and and was so oh my God this is what what is where is the trails like well welcome to New Zealand it's a Czech pilot very very very brave very brave went really bold and really deep we have
a mud hiker award that also usually goes for a pilot to a pilot who who you know hiked the most so
probably maybe didn't fly so well during the event uh but was had the grit and stamina so mud hiker award yeah sponsored by the local outdoor store and stuff like this so we try to make it as fun and plenty of spot prizes sponsored by local local you know local companies and businesses so we try to like so there's no categories per se uh but but a lot of celebration of going out there and and and going for adventure and and creating memories uh so we really really try to give both point bonuses for this nights out and and spending nights together with other pilots and and socializing in this in this beautiful environment and sharing the the knowledge and and um and emotions but also but also celebrate this celebrate this personal you know newcomer of the year best flight hiker of the year Etc so so trying to celebrate flying in different ways yeah so it's been it's been really fun so I would I would strongly encourage to come we would like to see what for example you would be able to do with the predates in the sudden odds and the weather has been progressing better and better and better every year so we are really really we always climate change is helping New Zealand I guess well I'd love to it sounds it sounds amazing it's a very cool concept it's neat to see all these pop up all all over the world and uh well I'll put all the information for not only your guiding and your company but the hike and fly stuff in the show notes but Kinga thank you very much thank you it's great to catch up it's great to see you again and good luck with your race and your adventuring thank you thank you cheers if you find the cloud base mayhem valuable you can support it in a lot of different ways you can give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or however you get your podcast that goes a long ways and helps spread the word you can blog about it on your own website or share it on social media you can talk about it on the way out to launch with your pilot friends I know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way and of course you
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