Hi there everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. You probably can't hear the difference, but I can certainly see the difference. I am coming to you, at least in the opener of this one, from the new house. I've been talking about this quite a bit the last couple of years. It has been absolutely back-breaking, but we are in, and it is beautiful. I've got a roof, a living roof, that I can land on. It's all powered by the sun, and it's a nice spot. So for the next few months and years, I'll be able to be much more reliable in getting these out to you on time. And this is the recording spot I have built. It's fantastic and very well insulated and much easier to do. So, that's exciting. The other bit of exciting news before we get into this one is we just had a very successful Red Rocks Wide Open, one of our U.S.
Nationals events. This is going to be the place where we're hosting a PWC next year. Which is really exciting. We haven't had a PWC here since Sun Valley, which was one of my first comps back in 2012. I had four really amazing tasks. An evening task that started at 520 and 73k and landed at sunset. And a couple hundred mile task, which is pretty unusual in the world of racing paragliders. So that was fun. A couple days up around 17 grand. So for those of you hoping to come over next year. To the Europeans, our European friends, and friends from around the world who are looking at the PWC schedule next year. We hope you'll come join us. It's a pretty amazing place to fly. Amazing terrain.
It was a lot of fun. My guest today is Martin Jovanoski, a very accomplished PWC pilot. He won the World Cup in Turkey that I was with him at a couple years ago in Aksaray, which was actually my best World Cup at 4th there. But he was, uh, he was... CRUSHING that one. And he's a sailplane pilot and tandem pilot instructor from Macedonia. He's been a big part with Goran and making that such an amazing comp site in Kruschevelle. And he's always the most smiley person on launch. He has that kind of first flight stoke every flight he has. He's never had an accident. And he's just thrilled to be in the air.
In fact, I don't know that I've ever spoken with anybody who's so... enamored with flying. Especially after doing it so long as he has. He's been flying since he was a kid. He comes from a family of flying. And he just was enthralled from the beginning and still is. So we talk a lot about racing and strategy and just life and sponsorship. And the beginning to the end of this crazy world we all love. I had a blast doing this. We were both at the French World Cup in Targasan. And we had some weather days. I got to sit down with Martin, which is always a treat to do these live. So enjoy. This is a great talk with a great human and a fantastic pilot. Cheers.
Martin, cool racing with you this week. And we don't get to do these live very much because I'm over on the other side of the pond. But nice to sit with you here in France. We didn't get to race today, the last day unfortunately. But I wanted to start this off by a little different than I normally do. I want to thank you. I've done a number of comps with you now and seen you in many places around the world. And you're always just a light.
You seem to have the most fun of everybody. So whenever I'm around, it's this that I'm looking at right now. It's this smiling, happy. You're always just incredibly jovial. You have a great attitude about all of this. So thanks. You make coming to these comps a lot more fun for me.
Thank you. Thank you, first of all, for inviting me to the podcast. I've been a huge fan of the podcast since the very beginning, actually. And doing it live with you, it's really, as I told you, it will be my honor to be a guest. And it was a nice week. And it's maybe even nicer that we are doing this at the end of the week after all the racing and all the fun. This place is really cool. Have you been here before? I've never been anywhere close to here before. And I love it. I think for me, it's probably now in top three competition areas I've been. It's such a nice playground with so many complications and options and possibilities together with the Spanish side, Berga, where we went.
And here, I think it's a very nice place. I would love to be back.
The flight we did day two, I made a mistake after that. I had a nice start and then made kind of a mistake. And then a few of us. We're off, you guys, in the lead gaggle. And when we were racing through the mountains, I kept forgetting we were racing. I just thought, this is amazing. Oh, I could top land there. And I could bivvy there. And look at that lake. And it was just magnificent. That was one of the coolest flights I've had. It was
beautiful. I will agree with that 100%. I was with the leading gaggle. And everybody was so pumped up. We were racing full bar all the time. And I was like, guys, can we just stop for a minute? Just check it out. Just to look around a little bit.
It was amazing. Yeah, I'm very impressed. I mean, I think in the end, too, we had a really bad forecast coming into it. And I almost didn't come. But I'm glad I did. I mean, we got four tasks. That's not too bad. And I'd love to come back.
Yeah, me too, definitely. And yeah, we were lucky with the forecast. I think we turned out much better than expected. Yeah, yeah. But this is the nature of paragliding. You never know until you are there at sight. Even like one day ago, it looked like yesterday's worse day than today. And we ended up not flying today. And nice task yesterday. Yeah.
You guys had an incredible finish. I was one of the unlucky ones. I barely made it to the start. I was never above the launch in that stability. But I was watching the live tracking. I mean, Hanno and Maxime just barely skated in. And from my eyes, did you barely make it? Yes. It looked like you were feet off the ground. I landed backwind as well.
That was crazy. That looked like
quite an interesting final glide for a lot of people coming in right on the treetops.
Nerve-wracking. I had a similar task ending on the previous task. And I was like, oh, come on, not again. Why?
I had that one on the previous one. I think it was a 21 to goal. I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to make it. But then I
made it.
It was just,
oh, thank you. Sidewind. Yeah. It was on this comp, it was a lot of very interesting options, very surprising options that were happening. And I think it surprised a lot of time the leading aerial. So others could catch up. It was quite fun. Yeah. Pretty interesting flying.
So when did you get into this game? And for those who aren't familiar with you, don't know you, that are listening to the show, Macedonia is your home. But is that where you grew up? How did you, when
Did it all start?
for you?
Yes. This is a long story, but - We love stories.
Start from the beginning. I'm
actually very lucky. I grew up in a flying family, let's say. My father was flying, already started sailplanes in the 75, 6, 7. Wow. Cool. Yeah. Back in the day in Yugoslavia times, it was like 4, 5 years. It was almost free for anyone that wanted to go. So kids could just sign up and go skydiving or sailplanes or whatever. Did you fly with your dad in the sailplane? Yes. Cool. But that's another. So he went to the school for sailplanes, but never got a license. Okay. After that army and whatever, he started flying with hang gliders first. And then as paragliders came into the world, he naturally started that when I was born or something like that.
And only much later, 30 years later, I am now instructor for sailplanes. And I took him on a sailplane flight with me instead of me with him. Really? You're an instructor for sailplanes? I just got the license this year. Oh, wow. Have you been flying sailplanes for a long time? Since 2017. Okay. So the obvious question - But that's a -
Well, okay. Keep telling your story and we come back to sailplanes.
Yeah. Yeah. So basically, I grew up in this port from the very beginning. I'm born in 1990, so exactly at a time when paragliding came up, but there were still a lot of hang gliders in my childhood, and then more and more paragliding. And back in the day, also Macedonia is almost at the end of the world. It was a young country in the 90s. When was the Yugoslavia breakup? 1991 or so. Ninety-one. Yeah. Okay. Ninety-nine. So information and all of that was not easy to get, but we were quite lucky because we had a good generation of hang glider pilots that moved to paragliding.
So it was a very easy transition. These were all pilots, some from air clubs, with some flying pilots. So they knew a lot of stuff about flying and could progress quite fast with paragliding as well. And I watched my father and the friends flying all the time. Was this in Khrushchevo? Yes, this was in Khrushchevo. So that's where you grew up? I'm born in Prilep, 30 minutes away. Oh, my God. But I grew up on the takeoff. Basically, every summer, we would go there in May, set up a campsite. And then when the weather is good, stay there, fly. And when it's bad, just go back to home 30 minutes away and come back.
From my experience, the weather is not often very bad. Yes. God, that place is reliable. We are lucky. In general, Macedonia has around 300 sunny days a year. But especially anything between May and September, it's really amazing. So I made my first tandem flight when I was like... Six, something like that. From a small hill, then some bigger flights. And then around nine, I really started to crave a lot to let me go alone, to fly alone. And this is almost 2000, imagine. There were not many kids flying like it is now at the age of 9, 10, 11, 15.
Yeah. But I was still very light. So it was... You were flying by yourself. Not yet. So at nine, I really started pushing and we had some fights at home, of course. And it was a good excuse because I was still too light. And it was like, come on, watch the charts. There is no such a small glider at all. So you have to wait, you have to wait. It was a good, humbling experience for me. He took me one day for ground handling. But with his big wing. And I couldn't do anything. And I was like, oh, so disappointed. But I was like, okay, now I need to gain weight. I need to get stronger.
And I was like, consciously eating more to gain weight. And at 11, I was like, okay, I look at the chart. Now I'm in. Now we have to go do it. And I was pushing, pushing more. And finally started to do some flights at 11. Wow. Yeah. Was your dad nervous? I don't have memories of that in those years. But as I grow up and I look at other young people flying or later, especially my brother started flying at 9, 10 as well. He's five years younger than me. And me watching him, I was like, I realize what my father has done for me because that's a big step to take your kid flying.
Yeah. It's not easy. Definitely not. I've got my
daughter six. And I just took her on a couple of tandems. We were down in Costa Rica for a bit. And even that was just very tense for me. It's
your kid.
Now, as I'm thinking, I'm not sure if I will be so brave to send my kid or a very close relative for a very young age like that. It's really amazing. I
didn't really discover flying until I was mid-30s. I mean, I had seen it a little bit up in Seattle. There's a really famous site there called Tiger. And a buddy of mine lived right at the LZ. And he always, for 10 years, you should compare it. And I'd go and look. And that looks really boring. It just didn't seem that exciting. I had no idea about XC. Yeah. I never hiked a flight. It wasn't even really a thing back then. But they looked like they just went and landed. And that was it. So I wasn't very interested in it. But when I did get into it, I always felt thankful that I did when I was older. Because I think if I was 20, with the kind of risk I was taking when I was 20, I've often been curious about that. If you grew up in it, how did you stay safe when you're young? Because when you're young, you're just stupid.
Yes,
definitely. But I was, again, lucky on that side as well. My father was a super safety-orientated pilot.
Okay. He
never had any accident at all in 45 years of flying. Wow. And no broken bone or anything. And from a very young age, I was put into that kind of safety mode, let's say. Okay. And I'm actually quite proud of that because it led me to much more smooth development, let's say. Okay. Especially not as fast as people developing these days. But back in the days, also the gliders that we were flying, they were not easy to just go for it. And a lot of accidents could happen and were happening around.
And with this kind of safety mentality, I think it was a very good approach that kept me safe even through my teenage years or whatever. And I can proudly say I never opened a rescue. you or being anywhere close to something like that, even flying acro or anything like that. So I'm, all these years, you've never thrown in the reserve? Wow, no, not even being close to it. I mean, you know, it's part, it's part being cautious, part being lucky as well. I've been, uh, testing, I've been working as a test pilot for companies, you know, we go on competitions pushing a lot, like you wouldn't push if you're not on a comp, or I don't know, learning acro and stuff like that.
Definitely, there is some luck there as well, but for sure, being a little bit more careful can lead to a definitely much safer flying, and I, I am really big into this propaganda of safety and safe progress, because I really think that at the end, it puts you in a better mental state than progressing super fast with some accidents, because still, from time to time, this will affect your your judgment or or thinking
You know, how do you impart that kind of progression and mentality and association with risk to your students? How do you, when the people that come to you that just start learning, how do you take your brain and put it in theirs? It's
Very, very difficult, but a lot of talking, a lot of talking. I think I work more on the mentality side of my students than anything else, because you know, the techniques, uh, they will come naturally, naturally, some of them, or they're easy to fix. Just you look at somebody making mistakes, you tell them to correct this and this and that, and in two days they will do it better. But this mentality needs a lot of time to digest by, by, by someone's brain, and it needs time to become your pattern of behavior. It's not, uh, only okay, I heard, yeah, I need to be safe, and that's it.
Because I find a lot of pilots actually, uh, want to be safe, but they don't know how because they are not aware of the risks. So they, they are like, "No, no, no, I don't want any risk," but then they go and do something totally risky because they don't know, right? We don't
Know what we don't know in the beginning, I've often struggled with that. I'm not an instructor, but I've thought about that. You know, when you're—when you get your intermediate license and you're kind of—you get to go fly the coop a little bit, you leave the nest, but you don't know what you don't know. It's a hard thing to impart, I would think. How did—how do you teach them what they don't know in the beginning? Do you—do you share with them the scary stuff, the scary stories, the real risks? Uh, you know, is there a way to do that without scaring them away from the sport? I believe in
People need to be aware of what they are getting into, because flying and thinking that nothing can happen, it's definitely not the safe way, no matter how much scary that
Yes, I'm flying. Yes, I'm beginner. Yes, I'm trying to be safe, but things can happen unexpectedly. So I try to present it in a way that here is a good example. I know people that are flying without any major accidents, without being set back and not progressing as well, so people that are progressing, that are getting better and better, but no accident. But here is the other example: people that, uh, done only one stupid thing and they got hurt. So you need to be aware, ready, and when you're ready, you will also think more of the risks, because flying just thinking that nothing can happen, it can definitely be much more dangerous than knowing, okay, this can be dangerous, that can be dangerous, and and thinking about the possibilities.
But you know also that the sport has progressed so much in terms of safety of the wings, and it's so much easier now than ever to get into that. It's also quite difficult to explain the dangers as well, because people are flying and flying and flying and nothing is happening because the wings are so good. So why would something happen? What
Do you think about this? I mean, there are people here. This is a quite high level comp. There's a lot of AAS here and, uh, the wrench team and that kind of, but there were a lot of pilots here at this comp who have been flying three years, you know, they have very little experience and they're flying at the top of, you know, it doesn't get any higher than the World Cup. What do you think about that? Is it is remarkable that, I mean, when I learned in 2004, you didn't go to a end for years, you know, that anybody did it was just that was something you didn't do and the World Cup was kind of out of reach. I mean, those people were just, oh wow, those are world Cup pilots, but you had that was just off the radar, at least for me, where I learned and where I got going.
It was, you know, it was expected that it would take years and years to become a World Cup pilot and now people are doing it really quick.
No, I agree completely. I also learned in 2001; I started, the majority of my learning was in the 2000s, and it was like that. It's not that pilots are doing something totally superhuman, it's definitely the progress of the equipment that allows talented people to progress very quickly without major accidents, and I think it's a very good thing. Uh, I, I have a lot of good examples around from people, uh, being, uh, progressing in the sport very quickly in a very safe way as long as they have the talent and the right mentality.
Uh, Darko, my teammate, is one of them. He started flying only in 2017 and, wow, he's
doing great
top pilot in the world, yeah, but this is
something that people need to be aware of, and as long as you are still pushing it in the same way, I think it's a very good thing because it brings the sport to the masses. Finally, we can—that's why we have more competitions, more competition pilots, less accidents, and I, I really like it, this way of development actually of the wings. To be honest, in the in the past, it was really difficult to progress, and even when you progress, there were years with much more worse wings, and then the wings get kind of normal, then again another step in performance, but at the cost of of safety and
then you have to be very careful about the
Flight, it was really unstable. Now there is a nice stable progress to all all the classes and definitely the latest generation of comb wings. It's totally amazing what we can do with these wings. Every flight I do, I'm like, "Oh, this is the... this is the best times of aviation." Yeah, it's amazing.
It's pretty special. What's your approach to SIV, and what's your personal approach, and also to for your for your students? I do a
Lot of SIVs, I do normally two to three SIVs a year, spring and autumn, and I think it's probably the best way to get to know your wings at the moment. And there is, you know, SIVs has been done for many years, but it's done at such a wide range of pilots, instructors, people, and it the wings have been progressing quite a lot throughout the years, but not always the courses. I'm I'm really into this, uh, way that you know, you need to the SIV to train it's very difficult to simulate the exact behavior of the glider in real turbulence, it will never happen.
Yeah, but what you need the SIV for is to train the behavior of your wings.
and to train the behavior of your
wing in certain scenarios, which not always means that you go full bar collapse half of the time, especially on the enb wings. It's almost for nothing; it's a good experience for the pilot. Okay, I got a full collapse on full bar and nothing happened. It's good for their mind, but it's not that gonna help them to react on it when it really happens, sure. So I try to promote more of a training way of SIV and then, okay, now you did these eight flights, you did these eight maneuvers, and now you know how it feels. I'm more pushing into, you know, you can see it in other sports as well. Football players are not playing football to get better at football when they have a match, right?
You need, and I have very similar approach to paragliding in general, including SIV. You need certain exercises to get good in order to perform a
Good performance, and you need to have a good performance, and you need to
perform when this skill is needed, and I think it's SIV is definitely crucial thing for anyone not to do once, but to do it often every year, for sure, depending of the place and your skill. Once you get better, it's something, uh, that you can part of SIVs, you can train also on your own, it doesn't need then you can, you need to depend of instructor for a long time, but I will definitely in those first years of paragliding, three four guided SIVs under instruction on a yearly level, maybe the first year even two at the at the beginning of your proper flying, and then just to maintain those skills and to know what's happening with your, with your ring when
You're doing your own personal SIV? Are you doing it on your comp wing?
Yes, yeah, depends. Uh, I do when I want to do it on my comp wing to get ready for my comp wing. Yes, yeah, for sure. Every comp wing, every generation is slightly different, reacts slightly different on the full stall or this or that. How much does it jump after exit, after side move, or so on? So it's, it's a good exercise and getting to know your your wing now
and you mostly just kind of fly like tail slide, or fly back to restart. You're just doing a bunch of stalls with
the comp wings. Uh, as soon as you get a new model, yes, that's that's the easiest, uh, way to to check it out. Also spins as well; spins are nice. Yeah, and letting letting the glider to shoot after a big dive or from a wing over also gives you a very good representation of how the wing can jump in heavy turbulences and so on. Also to try to stop it with the bees, not only with brakes, to see how much room you to play you have there. It's a it's a good get to know move with
Your life back to your timeline. You, you started flying really seriously in the early 2000s. When did you know, when did you start flying comps? When did you become an instructor? Take us through some of that, so...
it wasn't to be, uh, really to be born in a flying family, but our country throughout the 90s had, uh, big changes within, uh, probably you know, back in the time of socialism, all the, all the factories, all the manufacturing, everything was national. And throughout the 90s, there was a bigger privatization, let's say, of the, of Everything Campaigntu international disseptic that the state owned, including big factories where my family worked, my father and so on. And as this got sold out, it was a little bit weird way of selling it out, and many of these factories never got to work again, so by the end of the 90s, like 2000 or something like that
Almost when I started flying, we in our city especially had 48% of unemployment, so my father lost a job, difficulties with my mother's work, and so on. And this led to the next few years, I was flying really old wings. So when I started, I was flying Paratech P2, P3, like wings, which were not only old back then, they were 10, 12 years old. Now, 10 years old wing is still quite a nice wing, but these wings were from the beginning of paragliding, yeah, like eight cells and 11 cells. The first glider was a twist or something like that, it was maybe 11 cells, and you know, crucible takeoff, yeah.
So for my first two years of flying, two, two and a half years of flying, I, I, I flew almost everywhere else, but not from crucial takeoff, from the main east takeoff, because the galley in front my wings and with my weight, I couldn't pass the galley, the the cheese, yeah, so I, I, I was flying around, uh, without, uh, properly flying at the main side. Then I, uh, we got, uh, really, the my first proper flying wing was a skydiving vines, which would be the final one. Yeah, yeah, rough plane. I took off when was our engine, it would be like a two, three, or end now.
Yeah, let's say from some friends in Macedonia, very thankful for them. They, they got it to me, they sold it to me, but it was like almost for free, yeah. And it was a first wing that I could properly fly and thermala around, and it was maybe five, six years old, but for me it was a brand new, it was a machine, and I did my first, you know, five hours flight, first 80 case on this wing. This is around
2004 and 14, and in 2005 we were in Serbia. There was a World Cup; it was the biggest comp that this area of the Balkans have seen until then, and it was very close. It was in Nish, so it's very close from Macedonia, three hours' drive and you're there. And we went there with my father and I was
I was a wind dummy, yeah, and I had awesome time flying with all the people that I've been dreaming before, that even before I started flying, I was so obsessed. For example, at the age of six, seven, eight, I knew all, not world champions from the past, but I knew all the podiums on the Worlds and the Europeans of the years before, like in my mind, 96, this guy was third. 96,
This guy was third.
95, this guy was second. No, I was, I was totally obsessed from from super young age and, uh, being on this event, it was a like a breakthrough experience for me.
mainly because Avasport, which was a harness manufacturer, uh, back then, uh, quite a big one, they were a Bulgarian company. They already knew my father from the early 90s, from flying around, uh, the Balkans, some competitions in Macedonia, Bulgaria, and so on. And these guys, when they saw me flying, it was really not usual that you have 15-year-old kids flying around and doing the task and so on, and they decided to help me and support me. Back then, they were having a World Cup team, and they got me full equipment, new harness, rescue.
Helmet, big deal. They got me, uh, the previous wing from one of the pilots in the team, so I got a new glider, everything. And I was, I was in paradise. I was finally legit. Look, this can happen for me because, you know, you grew up in Macedonia, you see all these guys on VHS tapes, uh, flying and dream like, I don't know, Jimmy Patcher, 98 Worlds, or World Cup, or something like that. I to this day, I remember every scene of this VHS tape because there were like three tapes that would go 24 hours in my house, you know?
And all you do is just sit there, you want to be one of these guys, you know? Wow. And, uh, with that, with that support for equipment, it was a huge help for me. I could start flying good, proper equipment. I could, I could fly more often abroad in Bulgaria with them working a little bit on the harnesses, helping them and developing, and then this lasted for a couple of years and Got me to the my first competition glider, and they supported me to go on the first World Cup, so I was qualified to go on World Cup when I was 17, 18 also to.
I was qualified for the 2007, 2000. I was qualified for 2007 Australia Worlds at 17. Wow, yes, but I couldn't afford it, yeah. And then two other members of the Macedonian team went there, but then I qualified for next year. My first World Cup was in 2008 in Poggio, uh, in Italy, yeah. And, uh, my competition glider didn't arrive, was late just for two weeks for that event, and I was still flying the end from the year before, but I had such a blast. My first World Cup, super young. I know, back then they were, I maybe there was nobody flying a World Cup at 17 or 18.
I'm not really sure, so it was a big, uh, big break, breakthrough in 2007 and eight with the first competition glider, boom five.
Europeans, I... it was in Serbia that year, so I could go there as well. Again, close and cheap and everything. And from there on, it started. I started working in 2007 as, as a guide, and then slowly starting to instruct at 18. Uh, but before that already, we did some guidings in Macedonia together with Primosh Susha and, um, it was, it was, uh, really the beginning of me finding the place in paragliding and I was like, "Okay, this might work, this might work." But it was still, you know, for a country, post-communist country in early 2000 or mid-2000s, to say you want to work paragliding, it's like, "That, that, that is definitely, that's not an option, man.
Why are you dreaming? Like, what? There is no chance." You know, um, in meantime, um, actually my first comps were when I was super young, at 13 or something like that, immediately after I started flying, but in accuracy landing, uh, yes, in Eastern Europe in those years, it was actually quite popular. and it was probably a good move by my father as well, because where else to put 13, 14 year old kid to compete if not in front of you watching landing instead of going right? It's flying the distance, it's kind of a controlled, more of a
controlled environment
For sure, for sure. And, uh, I started doing this accuracy comp, and it actually got my bug a lot, probably because I won. I like to compete, whatever it is. I'm quite competitive, and this was quite interesting for me. And I, in those years, I throughout those, those years, I started competing a lot in, in accuracy because it was relatively cheap. It was a lot of fun. It was very good learning experience at all also. And, uh, like at 16, uh, in 2007, like early in the, in the winter, I was at the world, uh, first time at the world, and I won third place.
I think that's the, still probably the youngest medal on paragliding. Whoa, yes, really? Yes. And, wow, you must have been on the moon. Yeah, that was, that was crazy because from 2007, that was the first comp that I got to a podium, first big comp that I got to a podium. And then competing on this, uh, world Cup Tour or European Tour, uh, it was back then, I um, in 2007, 8, 9, uh, and 10 or something like that, I competed like on 38 comps and I was on podium on 34 of them.
Whoa, I, I got to first place in FA ranking and it was really, really going well on the, on the accuracy thing because I was really, uh, liking the, the environment, liking the game so much focus in just one split second and it's you and your technique and I, and I really like the game and I, I went to a lot of accuracy comps because as I said, most of them, they were around Eastern Europe, so easy to access, you don't need a latest equipment as well, super cheap entry fee and a win was at 300 euros. So I was going there to finance my cross country flying, ah
That's awesome. Is that, uh, I don't know, anything about accuracy? Is that, do you chalk up some of your ability to all that accuracy stuff? Is it, I mean, is it, would you suggest people get into it if they're first getting into flying? Is it an important thing? Is a good skill?
It's definitely a good skill, but it's a skill as any other skill in controlling your ring. Well, it's definitely a good skill; it's definitely a good skill for sure. Starting your career, it will give you a big... you don't have to go to compete because it's still a competition environment with a lot of focus, and now it's also very difficult to compete as well. But to get good at accuracy landing, I think it's a crucial point in order to progress later safely, but as well as, um, with ease of mind, I, I know tens of situations where we've been gliding on a comp on a very, very low with not many options to land, and pilots will turn and land in a nice big field, and I would continue knowing if I don't catch the thermal, I can land anywhere, and I catch the thermal and I go and they pump out, so it's definitely a skill to have
But it's like any other skill; if you put a little bit your mind into it, you will progress faster, which is definitely a good thing to do, especially for pilots leaving a close to a good site, or um, pilot that can fly only on certain days when they are out of work and the day is not that good for flying—I don't know, 30, 40, 50 ks—but you can still do three flights, three nice accuracy landings, or three nice takeoffs with different technique that you will check, and then the next time you might need it, you will be better is
Accuracy just scored on where you land. Yes, the closest to that little dot. Yes, so it's, uh, so it's not technique, it's not your launch, it's not line, it's just
Where you land, you need to land and not fall, which is also very important. Okay, uh, and it's measured by the first touch on your foot, okay? And it's quite fun because, like, the comps now are even back then, but the level is when you're fighting for World Cup or European Cup wins. It's like six, eight flights, and the total score from all the landings combined, it's like nine centimeters in total. What? Yes, geez, yes, really? Wow, you're very accurate. Very accurate. And it's a—it's a big, uh, mind game.
Let's say a lot of tension, a lot of close results. You know that for this much, you can be second or eight. He just showed me about
three inches there. That's
Amazing, yes. Wow, and I, I believe that it also helped me develop as a competitor as well, to know when to push, to know when you cannot get better now than if you're trying for this two more centimeters, you might lose more. And so strategy, strategy a lot, strategy focus to not be, um, I don't know, so you know tangent, ah, it's a comp and stuff like that, you know, going on many comps in a easier environment like that. Also being young probably put you too easy to not have this uhikle tension or now going to the world, so now this is very important event.
I think it helped, it helped a lot, but the interesting part happens around 2009-2008-99, avasport stopped supporting the the cross country team won the World Cup, okay, and I Got no more wing from them. They still supported me with harnesses and anything and harness and rescue whatever they were producing, but no, no more wings. And I had, um, I something, I had a like the boom that they got me, I sold it. Then I flew some Mac Para Magus. I was having a blast in 2009, uh, 19 second comp wing, everything is going well.
I'm progressing, getting better and better. I don't know, first on our Nationals or National League second in 2018, first in 2000, uh, 2008, 2009, everything is getting better. We had a World Cup in Crucevo where we, we had, um, some top pilots from Slovenia and it was a pre-World Cup, so they were Italian pilots, I don't know, mixed batch of field, but it was Jacen with a Mac Para prototype, then it was um Matej Zeglar, Tillen's brother, yeah, with uh Niviuk prototype, and then everybody else more or less with normal wings.
And us three, during five tasks, I will win two tasks, then Jacen win two, and uh Matej won one of them, and we were three of us, we were top three, 600 points above the fourth pilot. Whoa, yes! And for me, that was like, okay, it's happening now, I'm getting better now. This is probably, uh, that, that was probably the biggest success. Until then, I won some local comps before that in cross country. Did you win?
that one in 2009, I was
second or third, okay? But we were just, yeah, yeah, the points were like almost very small differences, right? And, uh, I was like, now that was a pre-World Cup, that was a pre-World Cup, okay? And, okay, now it's getting better, perfect. But the next, that was the end of the season, and, uh, the next year is coming. I have these, uh, two victories that I got on the accuracy, uh, European Cup, where I got these 600 euros for that. I can sell this wing for, I don't know, a thousand, and then you have more or less not enough money for even a wing. I'm like, what I'm gonna do? No, even if I manage, okay?
I'm young, I mean, maybe I can manage to get some discount from somebody, but then you still need some support to visit competitions and World Cups or stuff like that, you know? And at some point, I wrote access to a Bulgarian dealer, but never got reply back that autumn, and I was like, okay, probably this thing is not really because they were, they had a very safe wing back then, and it, which I, as I told you, I was more on the safe side, and it was quite attractive for me. Also, they had one of the cheapest dealer prices as well, so I was like, okay, maybe if they give me discount, this can, this can work out.
But they never replied, and I was like, okay, you sit, you do some work, and when you get some more money, you will compete in cross country again. Yeah, in meantime, accuracy continued because, um, um, there was a team from Serbia sponsored by Nike Serbia, they got me and covered my all expenses, so I could still compete in, in, and there was prize money still there, there was prize money, and all the expenses were covered by the team, so for me it was like, okay, I'll continue with that. And in spring 2010, I go to, um, Slovenia. There is a winter cup, but in the same time, Slovenian nationals and some world cup in accuracy, and it's, it's happening in the same time, and I'm there with my e and a flying the comp before
Usually, we fly in the morning. Everybody are preparing to go up the takeoff, you know, the cross country pilots. Yeah, I do some small acro, and then there is some wind. We are soaring around takeoff before they fly, and so on. And many Slovenian pilots know me because of the guidings before, and I've been to, you know, it's these Balkan countries, it's a similar language, and it's a young kid flying. It's not, not many really, really, really sight. Yeah, yeah, not many kids flying around. So many Slovenian pilots know me, and these guys from Maxis saw me flying as well and doing well on that comp in accuracy, but saw me flying some aerobatics and stuff like that, and they ask around, "Who is that guy?" and like, "How, that's Martin from Massanoia?" Ah, they wrote us at some point, really.
Yes, they remembered it. They remembered it, and I was driving back from from Slovenia, when I got SMS, still no internet. Yeah, yeah, roaming and stuff like that. It was, uh, wild years. Yeah, they got SMS from the Bulgarian dealer. When you get home, call me, because these guys from Maxis replied back. Nice, and this is how the story started. They, uh, first they sponsored me a wing and I started competing for the team. Later, uh, very quickly, I started also testing for them a little bit because in meantime, in in the accuracy comps, I would use every single opportunity to try as many wings as possible.
Yeah, and doing some, um, SIV maneuvers with them, like a testing maneuver with them, looking how they are built and why and so on. I was 15, 16, like from the very beginning. I, I started when I was kid, I was doing model planes and I was always interested in this development and why is this done like that and so on. So when, when Axis started sponsoring me with a wing and competing for them, I tried to help them in the development. This was a difficult years. It was 2010 and also just came up with the Air 10, yeah. And everybody else were just, we, we were, we were like flying in seas compared to, but and so it was also still open class, uh, years where people were building up prototypes all the time and developing.
And slowly I started, uh, working for them as well, testing. And this is when things came a bit more okay. Now you're working abroad a bit more, and I started to more internationally. And now it, it's happening again, a second life, let's say, coming back. Yeah, okay. Now it's okay, it's okay, it's okay, it's gonna happen, it's gonna still, still this unsure, but it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. And then, uh, working for them, uh, until are you instructing at this in this period in, in meantime? Yes, uh, since 2007, 8, I started instructing, okay. And, uh, flying some times and stuff like that, but you know, uh, with local market, let's say Macedonia is a small country and still flying was not as popular as as now.
It was those years when it really, uh, became more normal, let's say, to fly from 2007, 8 onwards. And, uh, I was working in our school, um, with the paragliding instruction and, um, tandems, and in meantime I was working for them, like I would go over the winter to Axis to to work on some wings and prototypes, and then we would test in Slovenia and so on in this when it's not a season period, and then back in the season I would fly at home and do some competitions. And in the same time, these are years since 2008 and 9, we organized, uh,
We started organizing competitions, uh, with Goran first. It was, uh, first couple of years was my father, and then slowly I was more and more into it. And the the summer season was packed with competing and organizing and teaching, yeah. And then in the winter, I would go to Czech Republic where we, I would stay a month or two or something like that, sleeping in the factory and then just on new wings and stuff and trying out things. These were years when Franta left the company to go to Up, yeah, to design for them. And the the owner of the company, basically, uh, Radek was starting, uh, was designing, but he was this wasn't his primary job before that, you know.
So we were learning a lot of things together and
progressing quite a lot, because I was at the moment the only test pilot, plus with the some designs from before and the new try and error things, yeah, learning was quite quick, were
You are, you, uh, are you, do you understand design and all that too? Are you pretty good with that kind of thing, or was it more feel and feedback from test? I mean, are you, are you a computer guy? Can you get in and, I mean, more back then, it was, it was a pretty heavily computer-based then, or was it more still drawing?
It out, so we were—we were already designing in GliderPlan, you know? Back then, I'm not a computer guy, but GliderPlan, it's so easy. It was—it's not easy, but you don't have need to be a programmer to, okay, to use it. Yeah, uh, but in general, my job was more for feeling and flying and flying and
I've been so focused on watching other gliders, of trying other gliders, and thinking about I could give suggestion and ideas. Okay, let's do this kind of cross section here, or different diagonals and stuff like that, or this kind of lines layout. But then, to implement it in the computer, it was, uh, Radek doing it.
yeah okay
but there was, I was really
motivated and, uh, focused on on this kind of development. I, I really, I really loved it. So the R10 comes out when
Are you guys going to bat?
with them, so R10 comes out in the spring and
Actually, Axis said we had a response very quickly, which was something worked on even before I, I joined them. Uh, already they had a carbon prototype with a big carbon patterns, like the baby HVP from the Superfinal before, like huge one-meter carbons inside, like Gibbous's arc almost, kind of, but with carbon, yeah. And a two-liner wing, but it was the same wing, let's say, uh, that was from the year before with just two lines now. And very quickly, we realized that it's not the two lines that make the performance only; it's a big part of that is the wing itself and the profile, you know, yeah.
But already on the Europeans in 2010, I was flying one of those. Uh, oh wow, two-liners, yes. So most of the companies were quite quick to jump in into having a wing in the two-liner category. The problem was that those were not really competitive, you know, yeah, right. So
You had the—you had the comp where your, you know, your podium, your 600 points ahead. It sounds like it did, it really start clicking for you quite quickly, the comp side of things, or was that beginner's luck? No, actually...
I won some comps, even the year before, okay? And I was doing well on our national league again. I would say I'm lucky, even coming from Macedonia without too much information. You know, you are 10 hours from the Alps; you're not in the middle of the paragliding world. You're 12 hours from the house. But, um, in the 2000s, we had a very good group of competition pilots from Macedonia that were visiting a lot of comps, a lot of World Cups. Uh, Goran probably visiting almost all the World Cups in the 2000s. Goran, Igor, Vladimir...
They were not only going abroad, but they were quite good, and they could learn new things and transfer it back. And me, being, uh, still a kid, I was really welcomed by all of them to receive a lot of knowledge, and this was, uh, going actually relatively easy for me to progress to, to as you say it, like, I mean, it wasn't a moment where it clicked in it. I felt that more in accuracy where I would just go on comps or do some small training—not much of a training, but some training at home or go to comps and nothing, nothing, nothing.
And all of a sudden, from that one comp on the worlds, from Then on it was just, "You're in the game all the time, you are one of those." Yeah, but for cross country, it wasn't like that. It was more of a slow, gradual progress, just better and better and better. Okay, and how
many hours
A year, do you fly?
I now, it's difficult to say depending. It's not many times I, I also say these to many of my students, it's not only how many hours you fly, what kind of, what kind of hours there are. I do a lot of tandems over the winters, yeah, uh, and if you take them in account, there are many hours, but I think good quality hours with cross country flying, it's around 200, 250, okay, with tandems and everything, I fly, it's more, but depending on some years more, some years less. When I was younger, I was really flying a lot. Now with the, with the guiding business we have in Macedonia, for sure, this is a still a lot of flying, but then it's not always with your comp wing, or you know, yeah, yeah, so it depends.
I, I have around three and a half thousand hours, maybe a
bit, probably more. How many do you know how many World Cups you braced in? You kept track?
No, but there are not that many, actually. I have been competing in those 2010 to 2013
2010, 12, 13, something like that. Even not the whole 13, when I was with Axis, maybe two World Cups per year. Yeah, uh, before that, maybe again, also two World Cups per year. And then there was a, um, as as the business at home was growing and the company, the Axis company, was
Yeah, making some changes to have some full-time pilot to have, uh, there not like me going and leaving. I stopped working for them and in 2014, uh, 13, the winter, I started going to South Africa to do tandems over winter and then seasons back home in Cape Town. In Cape Town, yes, okay. So I was doing that until covet for every winter. I really, I love South Africa. It's, uh, it was my second home base, let's say. It's a beautiful place to to fly to, to spend the winter. I don't like the cold at all.
I'm not into skiing or stuff like that. I
As you know, I've had a lot of people on this show over the years. I don't know that I've ever met somebody so obsessed as you are with flying. I mean, is there a break coming in?
Or is there a break coming in?
All of this is it, you know? 2016, 2017. Do you ever, do you ever burn out? Do you ever, you do?
it a
year round
For sure, um, burnout is a real thing, but I, I really love it. And whenever I couldn't, uh, do it, uh, full-time dedicated on comps and cross country flying because of, I don't know, finances or equipment or whatever, I was always finding different ways to fly. And many times, uh, especially Goran, it's a good friend now, and would tell me, "Come on, you're not focused enough, you need to do just that." But I love this as well, and this as well. So I started flying hang gliders in meantime as well, uh, doing a lot of paramotors in the autumn when there is in Pelagonia, it becomes so beautiful. Uh, cold air gets down there, is no turbulence, nothing.
So you can fly the whole day around with the, with the paramotor, there is no thermals, but
You can fly the whole day.
But at least with the engine, you have plenty of fun. Good for photography as well, yeah. Uh, then the sailplanes came in 2017, and yeah, I try some micro lights and stuff like that.
Yeah, man, you are, you are an aviator. That's amazing. Uh, okay. So, a couple, you were doing a couple a year, 2010, 2013, and then
Three, four years with Axis, 10, 11, 12, 13. Okay, almost, almost four years with Axis. Um, difficult years, um, for the business, for, for, for competing for the, for competition career, very difficult years. Uh, Ozone is dominating, nobody else is competitive at all in general. And, um, also even, and most of the companies start to lose momentum as well. Yeah, between them, it's also Axis. They, as much as they're focusing on the comb wings, they still need to make some, uh, normal wings. And there was a lot going on then.
I mean, there was a
Peter heated thing there was the open class gets banned, and yes, CCC starts and a lot of a
lot of sheets, a lot of shifts, which were not easy for many passionate companies that were putting a lot of effort in, in competition flying as well, and without big success, you know? Yeah, so in meantime, I slowly start to work only part-time for them, just when they really need it, and I'm flying in winter in, in South Africa, and then over the summer we're doing still organizing the competitions and participating in some and doing the guiding and courses. And in 2014, uh, I was lucky enough that, um, I mentioned this many times, I'm, I am lucky, in 2014, Jin borrows me because we are organizing a World Cup in Crucial, yeah?
And I need something competitive, and, uh, they had the Boom 9, which was maybe Not at the level of Enzo 2, back then it was a lot of work, but it was a lot of work and it was a lot of work and it was a lot of work. The closest possible wing, definitely, and through Petra, she, she from Czech Republic, she was very helpful for me to organize the wing to borrow just for that comp. But the, the week before that comp, we had our nationals and, and Hungarian, um, open, something like that. It was mixed event, so I get the, the glider first time on that event. It was a bad weather, we had like two tasks, but I got on podium.
Slowly, confidence coming back because throughout those years I had some good results. I know, second on World Cup task, third eight, but not really big overall results. And you know, flying with a lesser competitive wing, you always need to do something different than the gaggle, uh, to stay in the game. And then when it works out, it's like, "Wow, fantastic!" But when it doesn't, you're last and things are hard for the overall. It's hard. I am 23, 4, two years before that I could compete and beat many of these guys that are now, I have no chance, you know?
And confidence gets lower and everything. And in 2014, uh, Petra managed to get this wing for me just to fly it on the comp. It's a World Cup at home, come on. So I, I get this wing and on the Hungarian Macedonian Open, I was on podium. And then on the comp, I was, uh, 15th in the World Cup. In the World Cup, I won my first World Cup task, uh, I was, I think, first or second non, non-Menzo glider. And in general, it was really good feeling. I was flying and good for Gin, yeah, as well, for sure.
And, um, it was, you know, the feeling was coming back. Okay, I, I can do this. Obviously, it's not forgotten, it wasn't, uh, uh, you know? And because of that good, uh, good result, I could qualify for the Superfinal, which was in Turkey, which is super close as well. So easy to go before the, before the Superfinal, there was a World Cup in Chameli, where we're gonna go next year actually, for a World Cup. Yeah, so it was, we did a very nice month of trip with my girlfriend, uh, sleeping in the car throughout Turkey, one week on the pre-World Cup where I won, I think, three out of four tasks, then to the Superfinal, I was
22nd or something like that. I bombed out one of the tasks, which was like very, um, I don't want to say unlucky bomb out, but it was really bomb out without pushing it, you know? When you push and you bomb out, you know, you were trying to be good. This was like, okay, now just let's all fly to go, and suddenly we are on the ground with Nicola Donini and a few other top guys, uh, and that was a still again good result, and it was again
A very nice year to come back and to prove, okay, this is good. We can, we can, we can happen, but in meantime, uh, the guiding was getting, um, good at home, and it was important years to to make the business, yeah, to make, uh, make this from ground up, basically, because the comps were the guiding.
You're doing in air XC guiding in crucibo, yes?
it's, it's troops, it's tours, uh, and I think, uh, so it's two types of, um, trip you can do. You just focus too poorly on flying and cross country and learning, or just having a nice relaxed time in Macedonia with a lot of flying, we travel around. In both cases, we are based in Crucibo, but we are traveling to any flyable site in Macedonia. It's a small country, so we can even sometimes go to, to Greece or Albania from close sites two hours away, but in general, we have quite, quite good weather normally. Often we fly at Ohrit as well, and it was important years to develop this, and also with the competitions we started quite seriously in 2016.
We organized Europeans as well, as I helped out in the hang gliding worlds.
uh europeans as well sorry in 2016. So the next couple of years were more, more focused on that, where I in mid-time also one whole generation of competition pilots in Macedonia stop competing, more or less. Yes, we had this generation of the 2000s that we, we spoke about. Yeah, they were kind of, yeah, you know, slowly older, the life takes over, family, kids, and they—it's not like they were not competing at all, but they really slowed down a lot at some point.
Uh, it was me and one more guy competing in an international comp that happening just right home, you know, right? So it's, it, it was, it was a small slow down. We, we didn't had a league since 2012 or 11, something like that. So things started to become stale in the country for comp flying in general, and in 2017, it was a new young generation of pilots was around that were really motivated to compete again and to learn and so on. And I kind of, uh, yeah, I think that was interesting. I think I felt like, okay, these guys are super willing to fly and
in order to get good. Even for me, you cannot be the best pilot in the world if you are competing against yourself, yeah? So you need, you need good people around you. Exactly, you need better people around you. Yes, that then you are to, in order to, to improve faster, easier, right? And to get better. And I kind of led this new national league. I created a new system. We started competing with no costs, nothing. Everybody, we make like five, five leagues per year without entropy, without anything. In Thursday evening, we say, this will be the takeoff because this is the best weather.
Where we go, we go there, we just say the task, this is the task or whatever, and we fly. No retrieves, no organized, no lunch packages, nothing. Just pure flying, pure racing, nothing else matters. And it was a really big success in 2017. I left my comp ring at home. I was competing with DNC that because that was the highest glider we had in Macedonia League, wow, yes. In 2017 and '18, there was nobody flying higher than ENC because all the people were at that level that just learn young people getting into it. Wow, yes, and it was a very good learning experience for me as well, trying to help these young pilots.
I was also learning more and more. Sure, this
Is always the case because then, then, then I would imagine what you say, you have to do. We all know what to do, but doing it is different, not
Only that you need to think of things, especially competition mentality and so on. I was doing lectures for every league for the first two years; like Saturday, we would review the task, or we—I would do some different, um, talks because back then I was invited to a few events like Serial Cup in Provenia and so want to do to do some lectures as well. So I will transfer this as well to them. And also, when you have different group of people all towards the same goal, somebody will do something else better than you or think of something else. So it was kind of gradual progress, and from this national league that in 2017 and 18 had maximum ENCs, we came to the moment where Macedonia is third place in the world in 2023.
Wow, it's amazing. This probably it's my biggest, uh, personal reward for all these years. And let's say, what was your first win in a World Cup? First World Cup win was only now in 2000, 2021 in Turkey. The one I was at? Yes, it was my best as well. Yeah, you dominated that one. That was amazing. So that was a, you know, uh, when the league started and everything, we, we, everything started moving better. We got a very nice group of people to, to fly with and to compete with and to have fun. Very good vibes. And to in 2019, we started going on CCC's.
In these CCC's, depends who. Some were flying Leopards, Xenos, Boom 11s. Depends, uh, who was at what level. And it was Darko in that group, uh, Georgi, that is, uh, that was now with us on the national team. My brother, uh, developing in the same time. Um, Alexander was an old pilot that was, that stopped flying for a little bit because of family and twins at home and everything. And then he was coming back into and, uh, in 2019 we had Worlds at home. Me and Goran are organizing.
They were the national team. Everything is perfect. First cat one, I think they were the team was maybe 30th or something like that out of 45 or 50. teams or something like that, but first, cat one I have for for them and maybe for half of them, it was like the third event, third or fifth company in general. So, uh, and it would—we had big plans for 2020, as probably many people around the world, but with COVID and everything, everything was like a big setback, slow down, stop.
Yeah, we could fly a lot, uh, some very nice free flying in the country, some big triangles after so many years being busy in the summer with my brother, we did the 200 case triangle.
first 200k triangle in the country just because there was, it was covered nothing, yeah? But this also slowed down the competition progress, and for 2020, it was, uh, the first year after this whole new push for competition flying, uh, when, when we had the opportunity, and it was very good timing with Gene. Um, we, we, they, they were sponsors for us in 2009 for the world championship, and when the competition season started in 2021, they were flying some of these Boom 12s on the Superfinal in decenties, and I was like, "Ah, we are going to this World Cup now.
Can, can I try this?" Because there were like only five wings produced back then, can I have one of them? And it was a instant match, you know, after many years, especially
the 10 years before flying, not really competitively, the wings suddenly you're switched on and you think things are working without too much effort at all, you know. Also, it suited me very well, um, being very easy to fly, very feeling comfortable under it. It helped a lot in the strong Turkish conditions, for sure, and it was an instant match.
I'm curious, when you—you kind of had this juniors program league that you were developing and teaching, you said you did some seminars and some talks for those who are listening at either end of the spectrum. Really, I'm thinking more of people that are just getting into competitions. Uh, I mean, I just learned something from Julian the other day that I had never even heard, and I've been flying comps for 10 years. Uh, what are—what are some of the key ingredients to building a repertoire of success? You know, you see, to me, the French are just operating on a whole another level because they've got the coaching, and they come to the juniors program and they're—they've got a coach on site. You know, Julian now goes to all these World Cups and works with them.
Charles Cazzo, who's flown World Cups for 30 years, has now taken over the juniors team. You know, this is something that is just completely foreign to the US. We don't have anything like that. Everybody that's flying comps has to do it pretty much entirely on their own. We have mentoring comps, which are amazing. You know, Nick Greece and Russ Ogden came out this year, and they would talk about things. But what are some of your jewels, if they were, in terms of, uh, teaching those the younger pilots in Macedonia who you brought? Darco is a good example. What would—what are the things that are kind of key to making the stepping stone? It
I must make it clear, I was really helping them a lot on the beginning, but as these progressed...
2021, 2022, 2020 as they are progressing, they we are all helping each other. I think this has been the the key in ingredient without, you know, there is a couple of ways possible in my mind. For sure, you need somebody to lead in order somebody that is not on that level to progress, but it's very important as well as when you have many people which are on the same level or on a very good level then to work together. I think this has been one of the key points and one of the biggest factors for our success
You know, paragliding is a... it's a sport with a lot of emotions, a lot of feelings, a lot of adrenaline, a lot of egos, as usual for any aviators. And it's not easy to work in a team, yeah, especially when you are at the similar level and fighting for the same thing—national champion and league champion or whatever. And I think our... the biggest success in our group, in the way we did it, was that, uh, when these pilots progressed and got all on good level, they still stayed together. We still stayed together and working and helping
all the time instead of everyone just pleading for their own, now it's time to beat you or whatever. And especially because we have such a low numbers in our national league, we have up to 25 competitors that are coming to every league. We have a bit more, but 25 that are coming to every league, and we have 15 competition gliders, and as I told you, we have we had zero maybe six years ago. So, uh, when you have such a, you when you don't have a big pool of people that you can just pick point, take them, and and go, it's like a natural selection.
Then you have to work more as a team. You are less, you are more vulnerable, but if your progress as a team and if you help each other, I think everybody can elevate on the same level. And this is why I say, because I got this question many times from countries, like small countries like Hungary, to bigger countries. We were discussing similar stuff, like you mentioned with Garcia, now when they were in Macedonia. So, um, for us, or for small group of people, small pool of people, I think teamwork, it's a very effective tool to progress together.
And once everybody is good, you can learn from each other. So I was teaching or helping them in the first two years, but there are many ways that they teach me now as well, even after so many years of flying, for sure, because different minds think differently. And you can always go to different countries and you can always pick good things from everybody. From simple things like storing your glider in order to be more comfortable later for when you go and open on takeoff. Like anything.
But for big nations, France has an unbeatable system. It's a perfect system supported by the government with professionals developing other professionals. And this is very difficult to do in
commercial world where somebody, for you to dedicate the time for somebody, it's very expensive. And it needs a lot of time to be dedicated to somebody in order for them to develop themselves. And I think we were lucky in this point, first of all, to have talented people, super talented people, but also to be such a nice person that they can all work together without any big troubles at all.
So when you guys are at these comps, are you all staying together? Are you analyzing track logs at the end of the day? Are you having little team meetings after the task is released? Are you working together like that?
Especially earlier, we did that more as more things were unknown.
Yeah, well,
let's say now it's easy. Just the right back that we're going to do some talk. This was a mistake. That was a mistake. More or less, it's already a
debrief, let's say. But we stay together. We travel together. We fly on the same radio frequency, even on individual comps, not like in the Worlds, when we go to World Cups and stuff like that. And I think this definitely helps, for sure.
The
21 World Cup in Turkey, for me as well, that was my best World Cup ever. I got fourth there. Everything seemed to just align that week. I've had many days in other World Cups, and I haven't done a ton of World Cups, but Super Finals 2012, I did two that year. And every year, there's been maybe one. Most of the ex-Alps years, I do hardly any. So it's been a mix. But that one was just, I constantly felt like I was in the right position and in a nice controlling position, and it wasn't desperate. Just, oh, I got to catch up. And you were insane. For you, you won. You were in, I remember you were top five almost every day. You were just dominating. Top three. Top three, that's right.
You were. What was, and then we have other comps where we've both been in this case, too, where it's nothing seems to be working very well. What's the difference? You know, what's happening at that one versus another one? Is it?
First, I think it depends on the case. For sure, it's a mentality thing, but it can be mentality from disturbed being building a house at home. What you mentioned to me before. Or just, I don't know, flying a lesser equipment and you're desperate, making desperate moves, trying to win with actually your best chances to be it's eight, for example. And instead of just flying and fighting for eight, you're fighting for first and you end up 42nd. So this, I think. Realistic expectations. I think this is for consistent flying. I think this is one of the most important.
Aspects. It's very important to have realistic goals if you want to get the maximum of each event. This means also many times you will do all the right moves. But the first task will go in an unpredicted way where the whole leading gag will bomb out. So what can you do? You need to readjust your expectations because now you're flying with one task less and then you change the style. And I think. This is a key point and very difficult to do, especially going into a different event with different expectations. Many times this switch of mindset can come a little bit too late.
OK, I'm fighting for the U.S. Nationals. I'm quite good this year. I did good. And you go there and I don't know, the conditions are not really your style or you make a mistake in that. You have a third task and you still want to win where you could be realistically second or whatever. Right. I think it's all mentality. When things are going all together and you're doing well, but you don't know why. This is a problem. Let's say this is not a problem. It's you are doing well, but this is not sustainable. So you always need to know why was that happening? Well, or why is it was not happening well?
And many times there are very rational reasons. If you if we try to look at ourselves from outside, not from our inner self. OK, maybe you are not that good in week anyway. So how do you expect that things will go differently? Or you are not that good in super strong conditions. You're not that comfortable. You have changes. Harness and you're not you're still setting up the harness on the third day of the comp and you're frustrated. Why, why, why didn't deal went well? You know, where did I made the mistake? But these there are very often very logical reasons
that we think that they are not affecting us, but they do. For sure. It's our sport is a mind game, right? It's a 3D chess. I've mentioned many times before. And it really I think it's really important to be in a good state of mind in order to look things objectively to be consistent.
You spent a lot of time with Goran and he raced for a long time. What if one of the some of the things and he's I feel like he's kind of a mentor to you. I mean, I remember in Turkey he was as excited as you were when you won that. It was kind of like, ah, he's my son. He won that. What are some of the things he's imparted on you that, you know, having that outside perspective now that he's not racing, but he sees everything, I imagine he's got some pretty valuable input. So
he will be listening to this. So I have to mention he haven't been racing for a couple of years, but this year on our nationals, he was third. Wow. Big, big success, big success, actually, for him after so many years not not competing. Wow. But we I've been working with Goran organizing comps for now more than a decade, more than 10 years. And I've learned a lot about management style and these organization or organizational stuff regarding the flying.
He's still all from this generation from the 2000s when it was a hero or zero now. Yes. And yes, when now you beat everybody or that's it, you know? Yeah. But at the those first years, some of these kind of advices were also helpful for me. Not much later, but the beginning, like things like I will probably it it's something I remembered many times. And he's like, Martin, come on. You are in. I'm enjoying this comp too much. These are not your idols. These are your enemies. You need to beat them. Come on.
When I was when I was, I don't know, 22, 23. For me, it was still, you know, every day it's living the dream, you know, meeting all these people that I only have read in magazines. And he's like, these are your enemies. You need to beat them, not to adore them. You can adore them after the comp.
Smart. But this is. A good it was a good it was a good advice as well, because after all, you are here for racing it. I understood it more in this way. You're here for racing. You need to be focused on that. Yes, everything else. It's it's quite fun to watch them fly or what wing they have and everything. But the main focus, it's always what you can do best. Yes, there. And. And also to to believe more in yourself, because going on a big com, watching all these pilots doing amazing results and then
you need to think that you are on that level in order to be on that level. If you think, oh, for sure, they are better than me, it's it's difficult to make that jump in the final, final, final stage of the race. know, uh, frontier for for top results again, that against the top pilot, this is it's very good to learn when you're in the beginning, but when you go into the game to fight for the victories, you also need to think that you are on that level, no matter how glorious, uh, they can seem. Or, you know, I'm I'm a fan of the sport, so I I really like the the whole environment and superstars and and everything, and I admire a lot of people, but definitely that was a very good lesson to know that you are here to beat them and you can, so
Just put your mind into it.
As you look forward to the next five, ten years of doing this, what are your personal goals? What do you—what do you see yourself spend time focusing on? I
I would love to keep, uh, competing on World Cups as much as I can. First of all, because it's the best game you can play in my mind, uh, in my opinion, I love it. I enjoy doing it; you learn so much all the time, no matter at what level you are. And I really like, uh, getting better at flying because it opens up so many different possibilities that makes the game again just better, no matter if it's, if it's a conflying or even when you go back and you fly on your own.
Being better pilot widens the, the possibilities so much that it's so nice that I love getting better in order to enjoy more. There is, I don't think, uh, I Don't think, uh, mentioning things like, uh, goals to become world champion or something like that are different than anybody's else. Probably majority of the pilots competing are competing for that, I believe. I would think so. So this is definitely a life, lifetime achievement that I would like to have, but I think that the first goal of getting better will, will just definitely lead me closer to that ultimate goal.
And let's see, I'm open to to learning and progressing, because I think that it's really important, and I feel like the game is also changing constantly. It's not the same flying that we did even two years ago, or even in five years. Yeah, there are small differences, but uh, to be at the top, you need to be adapting to a plane that you are good at, and then you understand that you can fly on your own, and thinking about it, so I think that's my main focus, yeah.
Martin, great stuff. It's what a pleasure to be able to do this again live with you here in, in France. And nice work, great finish yesterday. That was very exciting, and uh, wish you all the best, bud. Thank you very much. I
I will. I will. Thank you very much. I, as I told you before, I'm honored to be your guest. I watched, I listened, so many of your episodes and and your podcasts and the book and everything. It's a, it's a true pleasure to be here with you, speaking as part of this big community, and I hope we're gonna have—we're gonna end up with a better sport because of podcasts like this in general, when we can all learn from each other. Thanks, man.
appreciate it if
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