194. The Spring Tune up - Nick Greece and Russ Ogden

Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the CloudBase Mayhem. I have a really special one for you this time around with current world champion Russ Ogden and longtime test pilot for Ozone and Nick Greece, multiple U.S. national champion and legend and former editor of USHPA and who is now working for the RRG, our risk retention group, insurance arm of USHPA. And he reached out to me actually a couple months ago and suggested we should do a show on tune-ups in spring as we're entering the flying season and already some big flights going down. We wanted to put this together as just a reminder that the data says spring is our most dangerous time of the year.

So for those of you in the northern hemisphere getting ready to tackle a big season, there are some hazards there that grab. You know, we're not very current typically. We haven't been flying a lot in the winter. The conditions in spring are really boisterous and that's unfortunately when a lot of people pound. So we wanted to just review all the things that make spring different. We get into conditions and forecasting and how to kind of ease back in even though it could be pretty spicy. We talk a lot about the new C-wings and the new two-liners and gear choices that go along. Along with entering spring, sometimes we up our kit in the winter and that's maybe not the best time to do it.

We also talk about age and getting older and you know more breakable, less durable and our reaction times go down a little bit. What we should be thinking about when it comes to age is something that affects all of us, unfortunately, certainly finding it with me. We talk about a lot more about equipment but also just what we should have and what we should be familiar with. InReach, first aid kit, oxygen potentially, sleeping bags, depending on where you're going, just to remove some of the things you're thinking about so you've got more access to observation, which is what makes us go big. We talk about the importance of kiting and ground handling and being savvy and savage on the launch.

We talk about flying in suitable conditions for where you are and how to identify where you are. We talk a lot about reserve deployments and SIV. Russ has some really fantastic input on this stuff. We talk about repacking, we talk a little bit about trimming, but it's just fantastic. There's a lot here. This was a fascinating one to go through. I've never had two people on a show. It was really fun to see both these guys, Russ over in Gordnan in France and Nick at home in Truckee where he's been inundated with stuff. snow all winter, but we had a lot of fun with this, and I was really thankful and grateful to be able to do this with two just amazing people and amazing pilots who articulate our sport so well.

So, enjoy this fantastic show, spring tune-up with Russ Ogden and Nick Greece, and be safe out there, everybody. Have a great season. Cheers, Nick.

Russ Legends, thanks for coming on the show and getting us all tuned up for spring. I've been excited to do this, and Nick, thanks for the suggestion. Sounds like you got your little one down there bouncing around. We got a little few minutes to catch up here, but thanks for coming on, and thanks for, uh, thanks for talking to the audience about all this important stuff. Great.

To be here, Kevin. Thank you for having us, and thanks for doing this as well. So...

We're going to be talking about spring and spring conditions and flying. And Nick, you've got a little preamble; like, can you just tell us about what we're going to be trying to accomplish in the spring and what we're going to be trying to accomplish in the spring today? I

Think, one of the things, you know, where where we're starting to see, and one of the what we're hoping to accomplish today is to look at some patterns, um, patterns that we've seen, um, repeated over and over that have led to results that are less than ideal for our participants, um, both the, uh, record, the RRG, the insurance company, and USHPA has, has detailed, and I'm sure, um, uh, the British Hang Glider Paraglider Association as well has detailed logs of, of accidents and the causes of them. And so, um, you know, going into the, the new season, um, you know, hopefully this will serve, uh, as a kind of a template for things that to, to think about, um, as we get warmed up, um, and, and to try to identify some of, you know, these repeatable, um, offenses that we can, we can steer away from, or even just draw some awareness to, so that if you're steering towards it, at least you're aware that you're going towards this, um, because, uh, as we know, sometimes the right decision is to fly further than to, than to turn back.

So, Nick,

Thanks for that, I appreciate it. And let's start with the weather. Why is spring different than the rest of the year? I

Think, um, in the spring we get, uh, cold weather, hot suns, lapse rates, temperature gradients are good, so we get very strong thermals, um, often quite hard-edged, and the associate thermic turbulence, and that coupled with, you know, rusty conditions, rusty pilots, rusty, uh, out of practice, not flying a great deal, these are the kind of main influences towards incidents occurring and

Can either of you speak to just how to mentally and maybe physically ease back into conditions like that? I mean, typically we may have done a comp or two in the winter, but a lot of times we're skiing and doing other stuff; we're not flying, our mind's not on flying. We're getting back into it. Uh, we'll talk about gear here in a little bit, but how do we mentor get back to the hill and and not flail? I

Well, so there's a couple things that pop to mind right away. Uh, one is just like any other sport, it's about warming up. Uh, when you get ready for ski season, Gavin, I'm sure you start dry land training right before you're hitting the hills. You're trying to get the muscles warmed up so that when you're, you know, ready to engage, um, you know, they're, they're kind of on their way to being stronger. Then when you start to get ready for the ski season, you're ready to get ready for the—we don't just go start sending off cliffs right away, right? You're going to kind of ski a couple groomers, you're going to get the knees feeling, well, you know, uh, you know, loosened up. So, same thing in flying. Um, you know, starting at a training, starting with kiting, so going out starting with kiting. Uh, for me, I've had a long layoff, I haven't flown in months, so um, I'm going to be looking for, uh, kiting coastal, you know, smoother air conditions, uh, reducing my window of, of, of flying conditions, so that I'm going to be flying, um, you know, kind of before the day gets going, you know, and maybe having a little bit and landing before it even really tees off, um, or towards the evening, you know, that I'm not going to be in it to fly for, for six to seven hours and, and, um, and, and going out and trying to, you know, go as far as I can.

But I think really the kiting part, the currency and showing up with the confidence that, you know, regardless what happens, I'm going to get off the hill. Well, um, and that's the first step to any successful flight. Um, the second part that I would like to talk about is the kiting part is that when we come back out of the, out of the, uh, off season, we haven't seen our friends in a long time and it's really exciting, right? You, you have, you, I have compartmentalized friend groups typically where, okay, I've been with my ski friends, now all my flying friends are coming back, I'm so excited to see them, that sometimes we, you know, I think it's a really kind of a warning place where you really need to be careful that to know when the aviation part is kicking back in. So you're so excited, the, the, the camaraderie, the social part, but then when it comes to going back to your pre-flight, going really into a hard aviation mindset and keeping that space and that for, for, for your checklist and for your bubble, Russ.

How do we know, you Nick? You're just talking about, you know, what you're—you're kind of preparing, you're getting back into the mindset. How do we know where we are after a long break? You know that so much of flying is confidence and and how we feel, and like Nick said, currency. How do you assess even on a daily basis? But coming back to it after a long stretch, just where you are in terms, you know, we are—we're also, we're getting older each year. We're getting a little bit more fragile, a little bit less reactive. We're, you know, our reaction times go down, yeah.

I think it's, it's a very complex issue because we're all pretty much, any anyone who's been flying for a few years is very much aware that the, that the tides of spring and how the accident rates do go up in spring because people are rusty and so on. And I think it's, um, and even despite this awareness, there are still accidents; people are still hurting themselves at this time of the year. So it's, it's quite a complex process, I think. And I, the rustiness is one thing, um, but I don't think it is the absolute be-all and end-all of what is causing these incidents. I think over the years as we've seen, I think it's more than just the strength of the conditions that we start flying in, where 20, 30 years ago you couldn't fly a paraglider in these conditions because it was too strong, you'd get blown back, and if you weren't getting blown back, you have to accelerate to and the glider would become deeply unstable.

So it was conditions that you just were not really flying in, whereas now with the modern technology, now wings are faster, they're more stable at speed, the window of being able to fly is much higher. so although the wings are getting somewhat somewhat safer, we're also suffering from flying in much stronger conditions than we normally do. And I think this is the biggest factor really. Confidence, as you say, is a really important aspect, um, but so is hubris, so is overconfidence. We can't be too overconfident on the long layoff coming back without too much practice. We need to be out there ground handling, like Nick says, when we can get as much smooth coastal soaring flying in, any smooth flying we can do on training hills, anything to just get back in touch with your equipment, really, and get used to it.

And then, once we're flying, I think we have to be really self-disciplined, really safe, really, um, really astute to the conditions that are going on. I mean, especially like down where you are, you guys are some valley, these massive big areas which are strong at the on the weekdays, you know, when you get a good lapse rate day, good strong day in the spring, you're, you're, you're gonna have some funky air, that's for sure. So I think, um, the, the layoff is, is one thing, but it's, it's a, it's this continuous training that we, we, we, we embark on when we start flying, and it never stops. We have to continuously be on that curve all the time.

Russ, this is a good segue. You mentioned gear a couple times. I've been getting a lot of questions on the new C-wings, the new two-liners, and maybe we don't take a full deep dive into it, but Ozone, Niviac, Gin, others are have come up with these new very exciting wings, and I've been getting a lot of questions about the new two-liners, and I've been had people contact me say, you know, say they're flying a mid or high B, and they're they're not really what I would, you know, they're not getting the hours that I would say are are a lot of currency, and they see these wings as safer because they have more bar performance and they're more collapse resistant. Is that the way we should be thinking of them? And because I think about gear a lot in the spring, because usually in the winter we're getting hungry to fly, we start thinking

Maybe it's the time to up our kit, and as we've talked about many times on the show, upping our kit is a risk, you know, as a risk factor, right? It's, you're, you're then flying in pretty wild conditions potentially, and you're flying it on new gear. So I'd love to just hear from you, how should we be thinking about these new wings and just in gear in general when it comes to spring? But I haven't really known, you know, they're, they're new, they're, you know, are they, are they something we still need to be very respectful of because it's a two-liner, this

Is a a big big subject that we could talk about endlessly there. Um, there was lots of questions in that. Um, first of all, um, two points, a couple few points I'd like to make on it. Um, the two-liner part is from what I've seen over the years now, um, developing wings, two-liners, three-liners, whatever. Um, to me, the the big, the biggest factor in passive safety is not so much how many attachment points they are, but more to do with aspect ratio, the profile used, and the arc used, and and several other factors. Okay, so there's a bit of a stigma over two-liners because that they're more dangerous than the three-liner for the same given design.

From my experience, uh, I don't see that, I'm not seeing that at all. In fact, with a modern well-designed two-liner, it's it's as well-behaved as a similar three-liner. The attachment points don't really make a big difference in those, in those parts. Um, what two-liners do require is a little bit is a different style of flying, so you need to adapt the way you fly. You fly on the B risers a lot more for many pilots, that's quite intuitive. Um, and for those pilots, it makes flying a wing mildly safer flying in stronger conditions. Um, for some pilots who don't really know how to fly a wing, they don't know how to fly a wing really quite have those skills, then it's not the right choice of wing to fly.

Um, and we shouldn't use a certification grade really to assess safety. Certification does not assess—is not an assessment of safety, it's an assessment of conformity into the way a wing should and should not behave in calm air with no pilot input. At the at the end of the day, every paraglider is unsafe, and it's just how far you want to go, how unsafe you want to be. Um, the biggest factor in safety is not the wing, it's the pilot. It's their, uh, it's their ability to fly the wing, it's the ability to not freeze when they're in danger, it's the ability to write the make to make them the correct input at the right time. Um, all of these factors can be learned by experience.

Some of these factors, but an experience is is is very important. But as we've seen, you know, we all know pilots that have been flying for 20 years and they should never, they shouldn't even really fly, and yet I've seen 16-year-olds that are doing infinite tumbles and have absolute skill and authority over a paraglider. So you need to make an assessment, um, a personal assessment of yourself to see where you are on that curve. I would suggest that you don't, no matter how experienced you are, you don't really change where you are on that curve, you just make yourself slightly better at doing it. But if you're, you know, There's not many people who can do 50 infinite tumbles and be able to have be copious mentors throughout and know exactly where they are spatially aware throughout doing that, and it's much the same flying high performance paragliders, I think so.

I think you need to not really worry about DNC or D or whatever; I don't really care about that. We don't really care a great deal about grades and reading reports ports and adding up how many A's and B's they got to verify whether one wing's safer or another. That's just a load of absolute nonsense, and it's it's time we stop doing that because it's just ineffective way of finding out whether a wing is good for you or not. You need to have a deep dive into yourself and say, "Right, well, how good am I? How spatially aware am I? How is my skills keeping any wing light, uh, open? And how good am I dealing with stuff when it isn't open or it's not flying?" All of this is part of training, but it's also bound to you as a pilot as well.

So, Russ, I—I totally agree with you about, um, this, you know, the the certification process and the conformity process. Uh, how would you recommend people go about selecting the appropriate glider for their skill?

um, well, I think the the most important factor in this is, uh, progression, uh, through aspect ratio, taking advice from experienced pilots, uh, taking advice from your instructors, taking from advice from people who know you're flying, who can be frank and honest with you and see your abilities and go from there. There is no need, there is no need to presume that in your flying career you have to go from a to a, b to a, c to a, d. I know people who've been flying for 30 years longer than I have, longer than any of us have. They're totally happy, and they're totally down with flying enb rated wings because modern enb rated wings, um, like you fly when you're training, Nick, you know the score.

They can handle on a sixpence, they can turn inside any competition wing. They, they've got an amazing amount of solidity and forgiveness in the break range, and they're a whole heap of fun to fly, and you don't really need a great deal more performance than what a modern day ENB, high performance ENB, can offer if you're really into cross country, if you really want to, to then take that next step, go further. If you have the ability, then you can consider going up in aspect ratio, going and as as we see, you know, as you go up through the different certification grades, you will get to that the higher the grade, the higher the aspect ratio is, a general rule.

But that aspect ratio requires management. The ENC, the EN grade is a grade of how the wing behaves, which boxes it ticks, which boxes it conforms to. In dead calm air, you throw that into Hong Kong Phooey, choppy sun valley air, and it doesn't give a shit about the certification grade. If you take any wing and you give it a 90 percent collapse with a with a super high kink angle, and it's recovering into rotary air. It ain't going to behave like it did above a lake in London in calm air. Okay, you can end up easily gift-wrapped in an ena wing as you can with an enc or d wing.

Okay, so if you, it depends on you as a pilot. You have to know your own limits; you have to know your own, uh, ability to fly actively. You have to know your own ability, how you feel when you get the fear, whether you freeze or whether you, uh, actually switch on and become better and sharper. And you have to know your own ability to fly actively, and you have to know your own ability to be a lot more, um, holistic, much more holistic approach as to how you choose your wing. And the last thing you need to do is actually look at a list of grades given by a guy who's flown it twice or once, you know, in calm air, performed two collapses mostly. Nowadays, manufacturers, we're blunt, we're honest, we say it how it is.

It's no interest for any manufacturer, someone flying a wing that's beyond them, it does nobody any good. So read and and really read carefully what the manufacturers are saying and follow what they say. I think that's the most important aspect, and um, yeah, don't worry too much about enc grades, uh, en grades, or the absolute numbers on each maneuver, so

Can you explain, though, a little bit about... so, you know, this is something that I was always looking at, and I don't know if I was right, but I was looking at flat surface area and and um weight ranges, and I was seeing how it was designed and how it passed, and I don't... I don't think that was correct. You mentioned um, you know, looking at aspect ratio. Can you explain how someone would, uh, you know, investigate aspect ratio and how it would relate to their flying, um...

As a general rule, aspect ratio, the the longer and thinner the wing is, the more span a wing has, the less core the wing has, um, is the more span a wing has, the less core the wing has, the less core the wing has, the less core and it's in the very turbulent air that you need more kind of uh inputs to keep the wing open and to stop the wing from stalling. As the aspect ratio goes up, the generally the stall point comes a little bit earlier and it's easier to stall part of the wing, so you may be inputting to stop the surge and still manage to stall one part of it. Also, if you do get a collapse, it's more likely to end up with a collapse of the wing and it's more likely to end up with a collapse of the wing on the outside. If you end up in a spin situation or a stall situation, the glider will tend to snake around a bit more, you know.

For two wings, everything else being equal, a lower aspect ratio wing is easier to manage in extreme situations than a high aspect ratio. We put them both in calm air, they're both the same, but put them in the the funky stuff and that's where the big difference comes. So choose an aspect ratio that you're comfortable with is what I would say. I think most people, that's why Ian, that's why the CCC wings right now, they're like up at seven and you need to be pretty switched on and competent to fly those comfortably and have fun. End is a nicer, is a is a better area for those that aren't quite comfortable on CCC wings and that's uh normally high sixes in aspect ratio and then ENCs are somewhere between six, six and a half and a kind of pretty more versatile for the majority of experienced pilots.

Fantastic, Nick. We, when you had the the idea for putting this show together, we put out the the questions: what should we? What are some of the things we should be hitting on when I talk to you both? And one of them that came up that I thought was really interesting is talking about age. You know, we're all, we're all aging, we're all getting older. Our Our reaction times, you know, slow down, you know, for me, I'm struggling with vision and so I've always had perfect vision my whole life and it's been the last couple of years has really gone down, which really affects my ability. Observe things in the air. Do you want to talk to us about that a little bit? Because I think that's also important. That's important year-round, but it's, it's especially important in the spring. I

wouldn't know I don't age. I wouldn't, I wouldn't. I think I have the same

problem, I have no idea what that's up

Yeah, yeah, I have no idea. I feel great. I feel as good as I did when I was 25. Um, no, I think, I think this is pretty much all I work on these days. I believe that the first step to this problem is acknowledging you have a problem and knowing that there, there are ways to, to try to, you know, counteract it. So, physical conditioning, uh, stay your hydration, uh, being deeply honest with your mental state, knowing, you know, when, when you are, you know, going to bring it and trying to utilize some of the wisdom that comes with making it this far in the parallel life, you know, in your paragliding career, you know, rather than, uh, relying more on, on sheer, uh, kinesthetic body talent. But I think, you know, staying hydrated while, while flying as well, um, and staying well fed, feeding the mind, because we're going to need more sugar, more electrolytes, you know, being aware that once an hour you're going to need to refill that.

And then being, um, compassionate and gentle with yourself when you're not at the, at the peak of your game and acknowledging it and stepping back and taking, you know, and, and being and knowing that this is just, it's okay, and you're, this is just going to make you more hungry for the, for the next day when you are fit again. So I think that, that's what I've been personally doing.

Nick, I'd like to also talk about because I think of and Russ, you know, you were over here for the for the World Cup in 2012, so you have personal experience with this, and we had an experience in that event that highlights this. But how also do you think about gear this time of year? And you know, the when we get back into it, I think it's often we're we're so excited, we just think about the core kit, but especially flying in in the Wild, Wild West, I think this is a good opportunity to rethink what's in the bag and and what's in there. We need to know how to use it. You know, I'm thinking first aid. What what are you thinking about this time of year in terms of what you're carrying? Well,

I've, I've toned back, so I'll start on a B this time of year. Um, you know, I used to just go right to my comp wing and say, well, I only have one wing, this is the wing I'm flying, uh, and and hike it up all kinds of mountains, because in Jackson, we couldn't even, you know, that only way you could go flying is to hike up, um, with your, you know, your comp harness, and and then have at it, and just kind of, you know, deal with it, and and I think I was quick enough, um, with my eye-hand coordination to be able to pull that off. So now I'm, I'm on a, you know, a Rush, uh, Swift Six, and a lightweight harness, and trying to just lean into the, you know, that starting off kiting, really having it be about fun, you know, not, not if, if I get up there, and I don't like the way it's blowing, I walk down. You know, the kit is light, it's, it's giving yourself all those advantages, so that there's no excuses for the inconvenience part, you know, where you're like, well, my kit's heavy, I don't want.

Well, I have a light kit for this purpose, specifically, so that I can make the correct decision, um, for the spring, you know, uh, as far as you know, obviously, we, we all use in-reach, you know, but, but here, you know, in the Rockies, it's, it's really difficult. The springs are rugged, it is by far the strongest, you know, most gnarly time of year, hard to discern if it's the weather conditions, or, or the, the mixture of your rustiness and the weather conditions, but with the snow and the ground being revealed at those two different levels, and the lapse rates with the instability, especially out here in Nevada, being, um, you know, the, the most instability will be all year, will be in the spring. We don't, it gets very stable all summer, you know, we, it's kind of the best time for me to, to be having fun, and not be scared.

And so, a lot of this kind of tunes into when safety is a performance progression, right? So, identifying that it's actually, if I can, I can increase my safety quotient, right here, and it will help me get to a higher performance more quickly. So, safety equals performance, right? And so, starting to identify those moments, and, and there's a few, there's a bunch of them where you can say, well, I'm, I'm not doing this because You know, I think it's safe. I'm actually doing because it will, it will get me to the place I want to be more quickly, but

How do you, how do you quantify safety there, Nick? How do you quantify safety in that aspect? Well,

In terms of like, well, I'm gonna choose a safer glider, right? I'm gonna choose a B glider versus my D glider, right? And and that's because, yes, the D glider will perform better on a glide; however, my B glider, because I'm rusty and I'm new, I will be working on turns and I'll be more comfortable, and therefore I'll be easing into my progression of to where I can access the performance of a D glider. So that would be kind of an example of where I mean, you know, choosing the safety—I put in quotes because after we just discussed, there's a lot that goes into this, you know, understanding—but you know, that would be an example I

Also, think for me, you know, in the spring because conditions can be quite overwhelming, I think the more things we can make that that are just padding in terms of our brain, it really helps, you know? So having the in-reach kind of dialed, and having your contacts dialed, and having the Telegram group groups put together so people know where you are and what to do in case of emergency, and who to contact in case of emergency, and having a sleeping bag, and having water, and having enough food—all these things where if we're going XC that that you're not in the air going, "Oh shit, just don't have that going, right?" or "My battery's not working," or you know, all those kind of things can add undue stress. And you know, that's kind of what I'm trying to do here, and I see that as a way to kind of stop our stress, the stress that take away from our observation skills, which usually makes us land anyway.

But it's also, you know, here in the in the west, you sometimes don't really want to be landing at 1 p.m. You know, you've got to be in the right mindset to get to that nice air at the end of the day, and to get there, I think the less things we have to think about and be stressed about, you know, is my oxygen working? Is it full? As you know, have I done that right? All these little things, we can kind of, like you said, compartmentalize and put in places that are not in the air, and I think that's kind of important because that's where we're going to be in the future. So, I think we're going to have to take a lot more time to do that, and we're going to have to put in places where we're able to be in the air, and we're able to do that, and we're able to do that, and we're going to have to put in places where we're able away can really help us, so we're not overwhelmed. You know, we're it, we're it's, it's not the seventh day of a World Cup where we're totally dialed and we've been flying, we've got all the hours, and we feel super comfortable on these hot wings, you

Guys, you guys are crazy. I mean, I mean the idea of having to fly cross country with a sleeping bag and that's—that doesn't really happen in Europe. It definitely doesn't; it definitely doesn't happen in England, yeah.

It doesn't happen in my world either, Russell. I live by the road. It doesn't, I

Don't know that's, yeah, that's that's part. No, no, if you're British, all you worry about is whether you've got a Mars bar or not. I

Know, Gavin, I think that's a really—I think that's a really astute point, and that's something I've noticed as I've gotten older. It takes me a week to prepare for a travel trip, a—you know, a flying trip now. It used to take six hours, you know, and I could be drunk, you know, and now it's—it's—it's, uh, it's a very long, methodical process. And I've noticed it's that comfort level, and so I think that—that's a really, really wise point about having your gear dialed, have not being on launch, figuring out anything, and leaving the ram open for contemplation, if it needs to be breath work, whatever, looking around at the clouds, but not being stressed. And I think that—that—that is, by far, that is one of the things I've noticed, and it's something that I do in competition, actually, right?

So if I'm competing, I have everything when I get up there. It comes out of my head and I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm not out of the bag." The same way it goes on—it goes on my body, the same way everything is done in the exact same way. And the purpose I do that is to create open ram, because it goes—it's like a clockwork. And then I—you know, I can—I can walk around and eat pizza and high five and listen to Russ's stories and, you know, all those things, and then boom, be racket back, right back in it. So I—I think that's a really, uh, a really astute point you bring up.

Russ, you're flying in a place where it's really year-round. I'd just be curious, do you have, do you have a lot of experience with, you have long breaks or is, you know, if you, if you had times in your career where you, you in a sense struggled with kind of getting back on the horse or is it, you know, you, you fly enough that, that it, that's kind of a real no

We we're flying pretty much every day down here in Bordeaux and um, but uh, with our with our when we're testing with our testing work after the Christmas break, after a few weeks off, you really do feel it. You really do notice that, well, I don't

know, I don't know.

You're not quite there with it, and it normally takes, um, it just normally takes a few collapses, or a few stalls, or spins, or whatever, just to get back into there, back into the, back into that mindset, back into that place, um, but definitely I don't have the long layoffs, but I do feel when I've, um, when was it recently? We went, yeah, I was after the Superfinal. We went to the Superfinal, we flew loads in Mexico, we then came back and went straight into a two-week holiday, and then when we started again in January, we hit the ground running. First day trying to get the photons ready for certification, and it's like, boom shakalaka, you're straight back into it, and I felt it, then. I definitely felt it then from the testing side of things, but I think, um, for me personally, um, I've flown enough over the years to not really get that rusty feeling after a few weeks layoff, but certainly for testing and

That's, that's a fascinating. So, if Russ is saying that just after two weeks, right? I think there's, there was a study done with, uh, with the Dodgers a while back, and it was an alcohol study. So they got the pitcher and a catcher, they, they were inebriated, they could still see the, the, the difference in their reflexes 30 days after them being drunk, right? So, as you, as you get older, and so that's nothing, look into the physiological effects of if you have, you had a, uh, tied one on at Christmas, that could be a 20 day. If you're the older, you get the longer that's going to be. So, I think it's, that's a fascinating, uh, that you could feel it after two weeks, Russ, after you know. And so imagine us who are six months and don't have a muscle memory of being test pilots, right?

I mean, but that's not one of our, that's not in our move. So, I think that, you know, that you know what we used to do. And I talked to Nate today, Gavin, Nate Scales, who we all have flown with or been mentored by or laughed at, uh, jokes from in the past, and he was, uh, he's getting back into flying this year, and he's going to be flying this year, and he's going to be flying this year. And this is something I used to do too every year is, I go kite, and then he's going to Boise to do a 20 mile flight, then he's going to the south side of the point of the mountain, right, in Utah to, to, to ridge soar, and then he'll do his first thermal flight. So, this is somebody who has 25 years experience. So, I guess for our listeners, you know, if you have less than 25 years experience, know that, that's what somebody who has 25 years experience is doing is, is, uh, you know, that's going to take him a week, yeah, or two, you know, basically to achieve

That's another thing in the Rockies, which we don't have like in Gordon. They could just, you know, day after day, whereas sometimes we have to drive six hours to get, you know, just to be able to get off the hill. But I, I think knowing, sometimes it's nice to know that, even, you know, the somebody told me once, well, you know, if you're looking at a paraglider pilot in the sky and they're flying totally straight, that doesn't mean the conditions are good for you. That person could be a world champion; their hands are moving like crazy, you just can't see it, right? And it's sometimes, it's good to know that. Look, even some of the best people who are flying in the sky, they're flying, you know, but Russ, I would argue, is the best in the world at what he does and most competent and, um, and you know, does it the most consistently, and even after two weeks, he can feel it. So I think giving ourselves that latitude and that, that, and understanding, so that it allows us to schedule that in for our oncoming season and build that into your schedule.

Don't, don't shortchange it, and if you do shortchange it, I think knowing that you did shortchange it and acknowledging that you are still rusty and then picking the conditions appropriately for that

Russ, I was going to say that the reason I asked that too was I was hoping you'd say something about stalls and just, you know, working as a test pilot, that I have found in my own flying that doing some SIV spring tune-up has been really beneficial for me to, somewhat, you know, to shake the cobwebs, but also just stall a dozen times, you know, in a place that you're comfortable doing it on a wing, you're comfortable doing it just to kind of shake the cobwebs out. I found that, you know, some of that kind of mild SIV training and, in one case, it literally saved my life. Doing a bunch of SIV training in the spring and I had an incident about a week later, and I'm convinced it was really critical for that. So I was, I was hoping you'd say that. But I do, you do, you think for the general audience, is doing a little SIV in the spring good idea?

I

Think, um, doing SIV all year, um, at any stage in your flying career and using it as a continuum. Uh, continuum is, is critical to be a safe pilot. I absolutely think you can, you can fly safe, you can fly, you can fly for 20 years, your whole life, without ever doing an SIV. The next time you go flying, you may really desperately need it. I think to fly paragliders with any modicum of safety and respect for the sport, your family, your loved ones, you should, uh, you should be focusing on SIV training. Um, you should do that as much as you can, once a year, once every other year, once every six months, whatever feels good, right, to you? Yeah, I mean, we all know, we all know and understand the, the limitations of the machines we fly.

The danger is that they're too easy to fly, and yet the difficulty is that they're extremely difficult to master. Uh, something I'm still working on, something I certainly haven't done. I train and practice every day to do it, and I'm always learning. I learned new stuff today, so it's, um, no, I, I totally, totally endorse training. Getting one early in the spring is good, getting any time of the year, it's good. You know, it's a continuous process that we need to train and practice with. And going back to what Nick said, I think what Nick said was brilliant and, um, totally down with all of that. Uh, and how you know someone as, as accomplished and competent and talented as Nate is willing to go through that process to get back on the horse to fly, you know, in the, in the strong stuff where he, where he lives.

Uh, I think it's a really important thing to do, and I think it's a really important thing to do. I think we can all learn from that. And, and I think a really important factor, especially this time of year, no matter where you live in the world, you know, because everyone's coming out of the, the wardrobes at this time of the year to get out onto the hill and fly. You're desperate to fly, you've made that time, you've earned the brownie points at home, you, you, you're using them all up to go out onto the hill. Sometimes, and the hardest thing to do when you see people flying is to not take off. And, uh, there's a lot of peer pressure to fly when other people are in the air and when the winds are gusting, when it's strong, when it's on your limits. That's when you know the wise pilots may not necessarily take off, especially if they've had that long layoff.

Nick, you've got some data that I'd love to go over. That, when the, uh, the Utah club put together, let's, let's talk about some of that because it's, it's nice to have, you know, we, we can talk about spring conditions, but it's nice to have some actual facts and data behind, uh, you know, what, what are the common things that come up? Trends, pitfalls, you share with rest? And I said, "Yeah, so and"

Chris Santacroce, first and foremost, has been running this accident review committee, and if any of you get a chance, uh, he does a USPA webinar. It's a very limited, it's only like 150 people can enter, unfortunately, but it's brilliant, and he goes through and and does an analysis of accident reports. So this comes from that, from Chris Santacroce's, uh, accident

Car, and so for this is for the point, but so it's, but it's the top three incident trends were riser twist number one. So, how does it happen? Is that, is that in the air or on the ground? Both, right? So, I mean, launching, premature launch, not hooked in correctly, turning

the wrong way, which is something I see sometimes if I'm guiding right, um, and so how can that be? We've all done

It, we've all done it.

Yeah, I did. Yes, um, how can it be avoided pre-flight, right? Doing a solid pre-flight check your turn direction before you're launching three times, and then becoming comfortable turning in both directions, which I think is more common, commonly taught these days than it used to be. Uh, what do you do when it happens? Fly straight, get away from the hill, and then fix it once you're away from the hill. Can

I just make a couple of points on that. I think it's really, um, it's really, uh, key because, uh, that twice the the riser twist business of taking off, being lifted off your feet facing the wing, this happens in strong winds. It's a regular occurrence. Um, if it hasn't happened to you as a pilot, it will happen to you as a pilot. So, I think, uh, that's where going back to the kiting is really important. Ground handling as much as you can, using the rear risers in strong conditions in a safe place, getting your feet off the ground, lifting your feet facing the wrong way on the wing, so that you get used to not just naturally burying it, using your hands for balance. You know, we balance through our backside, we use our body for balance. We don't use our hands for that.

At no stage when we paraglide do we use our hands to balance, and that's one of the hardest things for pilots to to learn and to overcome. I mean, and Just getting used to being able to fly the back, the glider twisted facing backwards is quite a good skill. The easy way to do that is is when you're super high in the air and you're and you're competent. I'm not talking to beginner pilots, I'm going to experience pilots here, and preferably not in pod harnesses, but you can just untwist and face backwards and fly with your hands up, flying backwards when the air is smooth, when it's calm to do so. Then you can steer and control the glider that way. That's one way you can do that, but obviously there's a strong caveat of having safe conditions to do that in, and so it became a crazy year what I've

Never heard that one. It kind of

Crazy a while ago when everyone started doing the acro tricks, twisted and backwards, and Matthias rotten, remember? We started flying back, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, um, yeah, we, we were doing that at work quite a lot, flying backwards, and, uh, I thought, one day I'm gonna do a sap backwards, and I started, went into a steep turn, and it's like, no, I'm not, I'm stopping there. It's not very nice.

Yeah, but these are good things that you can learn when, if you get bored kiting, just having the wing above your head, then find the stronger day, a little slope somewhere, get yourself lifted off, and just be comfortable with it. Because when you get pinged off a hill somewhere, or somewhere like that where they have the the the mountain, and the urology has that tendency to do so, you have to be prepared for it.

It's so funny when you, you say, you talk about ground handling getting plucked and that kind of thing, Russ. That's, you know, as you were talking, I started sweating a little bit more. It's funny. I mean, I've done the X-Ops four times, I've done so much of this kind of training, but right now I'm not tuned in, right? I haven't been doing the ground handling and, you know, the thought of flying in really strong wind right now still makes me nervous and it just, it lends so much to the, the, you know, it's not riding a bike. I find that ground handling is something you just, we've got to just keep taking on all the time and I'm not trying to just drive it into people's minds because it's cliche, but it's true that I find that it's not something we can do enough. I

And I would, I would postulate, Gavin, that this wasn't the Gavin I knew 10 years ago. You know that you weren't the one. You know, this is something that I would say that you've learned this through the 4x Alps, through you know, being on the front lines and that, and that you—it's, it's, it's, it's awesome to see on the other side where you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's just funny."

Yeah, I told, I mean, how much, how much of those launches were luck, you know? And just not, not having those skills, and I just, just holy shit, I got lucky there, you know? Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, I think the, I think the, you know, when I watch a true Jedi on the ground, you know, that, that lends so much to not having an accident because you're the person showing up at launch when the conditions are not perfect, knowing you're, you're not going to blow a single attempt, you know? You're going to walk up and you're going to do it. So that's one, let that's one huge less thing we got to think about, isn't it? It's just

I'm going to nail this, yeah? But that's hubris. That's hubris because, because no matter how good you get, you still fuck it up, yeah? It's too easy. We've all, we've all, we've all been there. I

said one tip, just, uh, strategically, if I get plucked off the the ground, I, I, I try to smile and say, "Well, yeah, great. I, I wanted to go flying today. Here I go, you know." And that, that, you know, and and then that puts me into pilot mode. So, knowing, instead of being worried and reacting necessarily to to a negative input, to be like, "Great, I'm flying. This is what I came to do," um, and trying to, you know, and trying to then deal with the like, "You are flying." So instantly, "No, I'm, I'm flying. I'm not, I'm not falling. I'm not crashing. I'm not, I'm flying. This is what I came to do." So that's one trick that you might be able to trick yourself with, yeah.

And I think, Russ, you—you mentioned suitable conditions for where you are at the right time, and there's certainly—there's the peer pressure aspect of that too, isn't there? I mean, you've got, you know, is it going to be rotary? Is there going to be—is it coming over the back? Can you do the forward instead of reverse? But then there's also, it's an early season, like you said, Nick. You're—you're psyched, you're with your—you're with your buds, you haven't seen them all winter, and everyone—you want—everybody wants to go flying, and it may not be your day. Both of you comment on a little bit, just on those that side of things, because that's a big part of the game. I

think it's, and I think, um, you know, wing certification, experience, all of these things aside, the the decision to take off is is the most important decision you'll make all day. And, um, if you are, if you are not feeling on it, you've had a, you know, a six week, six month layoff, whatever, and it's pinging springtime, mid-April conditions, it's probably not a wise thing to do to take off in

sled rides first thing in the morning, late evening, soaring, building up your time. Be like, "Nate, you know, don't, don't be a fool and just go straight at it." On the good days, and that's really hard to do. It's really hard to do when you've got your friends out there who maybe are a bit more in tune, been flying more, went away for the winter, did a, did a few weeks flying in Mexico, Columbia, whatever, and then they're back and they're flying in the stronger stuff and enjoying it. If you're doing this, if you're not enjoying it, it's a risk-reward thing, and if the risks are much higher than the reward, then, then stop and live to fly another day. I think that's the most critical decision, and that's what's going to keep you. If you're disciplined with yourself, you know where you're at as a pilot, you know where you are at with your own currency, then, um, you know, have confidence in your own decisions and don't look at others too much and follow the issue and

That would be another example, Russ, where safety equals performance. When I'm talking about getting to, if we're, if our goal is to get to be able to fly in larger and larger conditions, the quickest way to get there is to not have the fear flights. It would be to do this, what date's doing, a progression, a steady progression up, and then you will, you will, you will achieve the performance quicker. And so that, that's what I mean by safety can equal performance. Um, a lot of times people want to jump the shark and say, well, performance means performance, I'm going to send it, and that's what performance means. And it's like, well, no, it's a, it's a, it's a progress, I guess, too. I would like people to know when they're out there that, that they are not alone in their, in their fear and their experience, and that it is okay, you know, like that. If they're feeling it, I guarantee that if I were there, or if Gavin were there, we would be feeling it, you know?

No, even with all, I've taken six months off, I'm right back to where they, you know, and so that they're not alone and to, to know that this is normal and that the, the what is safety equal, you know, how, how will you know? Sometimes a lot will, safety equal performance here? Well, if the answer is yes, you know, it's kind of like a Venn diagram, you know, a photo or a diagram. If the answer is yes, well, then I'll choose that path. Um, you know, if the answer is no, then I choose. But the, the point is just trying to be aware of it, so that you know it's affecting you. That to me is one of the most important bits. To just be kind of a passenger in this game is where people get hurt. To be an active participant and to be in, you know, in charge of these decisions, even if you're making bad ones, in my opinion, if you're in charge of them, okay, great, you're, you are at least, we're not a passenger.

And I think that you're, you know, you could be prepared to bring it them. The other thing that I would like people to understand is that when you're up there and you're feeling it, I'm, I, I, if I were there in the same experience, I would be feeling it too, yeah.

Good, that's—that's really, that's important and key. Thanks, Nick. You, I—I we pulled you off your data sheet. There, there was more to that. Let's get back to that. What, what, what are some more things that came out of Chris's study three?

So he has for the, it's for so at the point they fly, uh, mini wings a lot, and so, and I know they have a lot, they have a barrel roll is number two. Um, I would say ground spiral, we could probably add in there. I don't think that, I think people have finally moved away from the ground spiral, and the majority of people, anyway, we still have a few, but I see very few here. But anyway, how does it happen? Ground impact due to insufficient clearance. How can it be avoided? Victims usually say, "I can't believe I tried to throw a 360 there." After they are out of the hospital, make a deal with yourself. This is a good one, I think. Um, I will not 360 if I am below this altitude. 360s are big, life-changing choices. So the, the, the point has a lot of, they have a lot of barrel roll accidents.

So I, I think just keeping ground clearance, I think we could probably also shift it to that, that there's, there's, you know, early in the spring, keeping higher margins for error, not turning, you know, no need to be turning down, you know, that close to the hill. Again, back to Russ's, I risk versus reward is always high on my list. What am I, you know, what, what am I doing? Why am I turning? Why am I turning this close to the hill this early on? You know, this isn't, this isn't part of my ramping up training to performance protocol. Anything

else on there that came out of Chris's study that we need to talk about top

Landings number three: how does it happen? Ground impact due to a forced landing. How can it be avoided? Do not attempt at sites not normally top landed. Do not attempt at sites unfamiliar to you. Practice multiple approaches. Know that there's always a side of the launch rule to the wind. Generally avoid flapping, yeah.

I would say, too. I, I see, I see a lot of pretty bad flapping, and you know, there's, there's a clip of me doing it really badly in the 2015 race. This is something that, uh, you know, SIV instructors have, you know, helped me to understand, you know, you need to do this with a lot of altitude over, you know, a safe place. And do, I learned it from Carlos. I saw him, remember Nick? You and I bombed out one of the something down at Mexico, and he came in because those guys got a land in a big corrugated—you know, it's not corrugated, you know, the horrible fences in Caracas down in Venezuela that are all barbed wire and everything. And he came in from about 50 feet on the ice peak six, just doing these deep, powerful wham, and then let it fly, and wham, and then let it fly.

And there's a right way to, to flap, and that's the right way to do it, but these are the things we want to learn, you know, in the correct environment. But yeah, that top landing is certainly one of the—I'd like to, I'd like to confess, folks, go ahead, you

Guys, I don't top land anymore. I'm too scared to. I am not current enough. I fly cross country, um, and I haven't—I've tried top landing once last year and kind of blew it, and I'm real, I'm like, I, I am not current enough to top it. I think be top landing is an art and a skill that

and have muscle that needs to be utilized constantly, and my kiting, nor my kiting, nor my acro are good enough to top land at this point in my career. I could not top land in Chelan. You top land this year? I, I couldn't do that safely. That would be, that would be almost, I'd be like, well, I got like a 70/30 that I might not go to the hospital on this, you know? And so, look, I won the Chelan comp last year, so I guess that's the other thing to, to know, you know, to be, you know, like, be honest with yourself, yeah? You know, look at, look inside, right? But, but, and no, like, if you're coming in and you're like, "Dude, I don't, I don't stay away from top," I don't. Top landing is one of the more dangerous things you could do. Typically, it's thermic, right? And that's the thing with the hike and fly gating and popularity.

I, I see, I am concerned that people are, they don't quite understand because they see Chrigel land fly on the wall, or they see Duragati land and, and, you know, and they're nailing it. And it's because they are that guy can do an infinite tumble for a hundred revolutions, that, you know, the other one, um, is a complete, you know, acro savage, you know? So, I think that a lot, they don't quite realize the real nuance, you know? Carlos, one of the reasons he was a fantastic aerobatic pilot, but also he flew tandems in Vancouver and they had to land every day in a slot that's, uh, it's like a half of a baseball diamond, right? So, you know, with a fence at the end, so like that, you know? So, so, I think that that top landing is one of the most underrated that of a complete pilot, like that, being able to talk is a real—I mean, it's a real art of a fully complete pilot, not somebody who can take off and land, not somebody who can thermal and pick cross-country lines, not somebody who I could stall away.

I can helicopter, but I can't top land. So knowing that, and and and then working up to it, right? So then that would be that progression again. I I I acknowledge I have a problem. I am humbled in your the face of the the oh so difficult top landing.

and I'm going to go somewhere where it's sea level, okay? Back to my roots as well, sea level, and I can see, you know, and so, and then building up from there. So I think some of, sometimes what's going on is the full complexity of these maneuvers aren't necessarily evident, hey?

Nick, nick, nick, but Nick, but surely if you're struggling with this top landing thing, if you've got this top landing gremlin, don't go to Tory Pines. You're gonna be in the water.

Yeah, I mean, I just hope

I land on the beach.

Yeah, yeah, I think, uh, what you're saying is very true for small thermic takeoffs and top landing areas in mountains. High altitude thermic conditions, you know, for, for many people in the world that fly at lower level—I'm thinking of British pilots off the top of my head, and people from Belgium and places like this, where, where top landing is a normal thing. It's what's, what it's, what's learned in, in school. So just to make that distinction, I think Nick's talking about, you know, high level, high, high altitude thermic, light wind, where, yeah, the chances of when you get it wrong are very civic, thank

you yeah and

Your, your point, Nick, too, to, to, who is it that you're looking at in the sky? And Will Gadd taught me that, you know, you could be at a launch in Fish on a really feisty day and you see somebody doing this wicked tail slide and helicopter and then a little touch and go, and and that pilot might be Chrigel, you know, the, the stuff that we are seeing these guys do with the fly on the wall landings, you know, so downwind, uphill, it is absurdly hard to nail that. And I know that because I practiced it here in deep snow, and if it hadn't been deep snow, I would be in the hospital over and over and over and over again, and I still screw it up, and I screwed it up a lot in the last race. And so, I mean, these are things that we saw, this in the last VercoFly, they had to cancel the race, and Nick Neynens, very competent pilot, who, you know, unfortunately had a terrible accident last year, not in this race, but in the VercoFly, they had to cancel the race because there were so many accidents, top landing, and so that, you know, this is something that, like you said, I think it's really the premier end of the, of the sport.

In the wrong conditions, it's really requires a lot of skill, and you, you've got to always have a, have an escape, but so

It goes, and I, and I think, and I think it goes back to that, just that we can repeat again: do not attempt at sites not normally top landed. Do not attempt at sites unfamiliar to you. Practice multiple approaches, right? That's, that's one thing I do. I approach, and then I always wave off. Know that there's always a side of the launch favorable to the wind, and generally avoid flapping. So anyway, this is a great review by Chris, and and the use of accident review committee. So, top, top four common pitfalls: one, deflations. Maybe we can ask Russ, how do you, how

Well, I mean, we're all a big low-down deflation away from hospital, you know? I mean, we—that's always our biggest danger, and no matter how good or experienced you are, no matter how much you fly, that's always the risk, which is why altitude is always your friend. Uh, every deflation is unique, and uh, it depends on the—the proportion of the wing that's deflated, the kink angle, the air that the glider is trying to recover in, and then the wing that's deflated, the kink angle, the air that the—the moment where you were at the time, where you were in roll or pitch. Uh, so every, uh, collapse is unique. Hopefully, you have a very flat, small collapse and the glider doesn't change direction and you don't need to do anything.

The worst one is a big, large, heavy kink-angled collapse on the inside when you're close to the rock face. Uh, all of these collapses require different and unique, uh, inputs to get away from safely. And some you can't get away from safely, so altitude above the ground, conditions that you're flying in, gliders that you're capable of flying and maintaining and keeping open in turbulent air, your active flying skills and, uh, training the best, so that you're in the best position to be able to deal with that situation when, when, when it, when it occurs. Another thing I'm a strong advocate is looking at the wing, so you know exactly what the collapse

is and how the wing collapse is

As soon as it comes in, there's no guesswork, there's no, you know, you, you, your eyes work faster than your feel, and you'll be able to mostly input most of it you can, and that's another good thing with two liners for competent pilots, you can pretty much stop if you can. Occasionally, you'll get a checky Jackie Chan collapse, which just takes the wing out of the air like, and there's, you get no warning, so they're the hardest ones to deal with, but most of the, most of the time, you get a loss of pressure. You get a reduction of tension in the A-lines. You get a slight warning where an instantaneous input can just minimize it. And if you're on the Bs already, even if you're pushing full speed and 70 % of the wing starts to come, by the time you input, you've just got a small wing tip collapse.

So you can stop a massive amount with good active control on the risers or the brakes, depending on where you are, what speed you're flying at. I think they're the key elements. But we can't avoid that, and it's what makes paragliding dangerous. And it's why we try and make wings that are solid, more collapse-resistant.

Russ, you said something to me that changed my flying forever, and it was never buy a red wing. Oh, sorry. No, I'm just kidding. It was, you said... You said, I said, it was the R10.2, and I said, Russ, what do I do when it collapses? And you said, don't let it collapse. And I know that seems very simple, but for some reason, my whole mindset changed at that moment, where I went from reactive to proactive. And I never flew the same again. And it was just, you know, and I don't know if you know that you did, like that's one of your teaching points or what have you. But I think to me, it was very salient because I was, I had come from the comp window. I was flying wings before certification, right? And I was pretty, you know, flying them in Jackson and Sun Valley. And so I think I was terrified, you know, to some extent, deep down.

And I was always, what do I do when it collapses? What do I do? And then don't let it collapse. And to me, that changed the way I manage the wing forever. And so the goal was then never let it collapse. Not what do I do if it collapses? So thank you for that. And hopefully that makes sense. I don't know if it does to other people, but I mean, we can pass. No,

it definitely does. Nick, keep going on your list. I couldn't agree more. That was something, I don't know where I picked that up too, but it was, it just was a total mindset. You just, you know, now I don't know what people are talking about when they talk about frontals. No, that doesn't happen. You know, you shouldn't have a frontal. You're on two liner. Don't have a frontal, doesn't happen.

It helps. They can and they do happen though. And which is why the training is really important that you're prepared for when it is. But yeah, I think, you know, I often talk to comp pilots who complain, I think I'm over inputting the wing. I'm over inputting the wing. And it's like, well, you know what? It's better to be an over inputter and keep the thing open than to not input enough and take the wing in your face every now and then. So I think, I think and that's where, you know, going back to what you're talking about, the ENC two liners, I think that's where for the right pilot having just A and B lines is really beneficial to your control of the wing throughout the speed range. You can achieve it with three liner wings.

It's not another world. It's just slightly better when you've just got A and B lines and you can really control the angle of attack fully when you're accelerating. You can you can have you can hold the speed bar fully extended at full speed and you can just pull the risers B risers back to trim speed instantaneously. You know, and so you've got full angle of attack control. And coupled with the good fastest, fastest knee in the West, those two inputs, you can you can normally deal with pretty much every collapse or or you can at least minimize the size of the collapse or the severity of the turn.

Back to our top four common pitfalls to stalls and spins. Russ, you want to talk us through how to deal with stalls and spins?

Well, you shouldn't really stall or spin modern day wings, really. That's probably rustiness, poor training, using your hands to balance rather than balancing through your body. But I would say inadvertent stalling, inadvertent spinning is lack of experience, lack of training, lack of practice. These things need to be addressed. I would. There has to be an experienced pilots doing this. It's very uncommon for experienced pilots to spin. And more modern day wings. It used to be the case when we had really high camber profiles, high openings in the nose, all of these things which which promote quite fast stalls, fast spins, early stalls, early spins.

Most modern wings there, we've got to ignore a lot of warning signs before you get to that place. They still do happen, but it is rare.

You know, Nick, I wonder I wonder, you know, it might be helpful for the audience to understand that this report came from the point. The point is a windy site. It'd be like a coastal soaring site in the mountains. And I think where people mess up there is speed over ground. You know, when you're coastal soaring and when you're flying at the point, you're barely moving because there's so much wind. And then suddenly you go fly a mountain site and you're not flying in that kind of breeze and you forget that you need speed to have input in your wing. And I think that that can often lead people to just getting too deep in the breaks, right? Would you agree with that?

I think so.

And, you know, gosh, what am I seeing? Yeah, just people, you know, newer pilots thermaling, sometimes trying to slow down for traffic, right? Getting worried that they're encroaching if they're flying with gliders with different speeds. So in Valle, I've seen, you know, newer pilots, you know, forgetting that, again, it's the balance, it's the hands, the separation and kind of maybe a fear slowing down because they're out of the traffic pattern. So I think just being aware of your airspeed, right, is kind of the deal there. So I think another place that we see stalls sometimes is people confusing, you know, basically when they get a massive frontal and they try to open it up with brake and it goes right to stall.

So can you explain, you know, should it be renamed frontal stall or is it still a front? You know, how big does a frontal have to be? Until it's a stall, I guess, is my question.

Well, it doesn't need any renaming. The Germans call it a front stall. That's what they've always termed it. Most frontals... Well, we need to rename it then. Most frontals, if you... Most frontals, when they come, they open from the center and towards the tip and refly without stall. It's quite rare that you get a frontal that stalls immediately without input. It can happen. It can happen. We've seen that in prototypes. And in certain wings, there are certain situations in which that can happen. But the over-inputting frontal into stall is a rarity. I've done it myself, actually. But if that happens and

you... We see it quite a bit. I would say I see it relatively frequently. Do you? Where? In Valle. On

what wings is this?

Bs and Cs. Cs more. C wings more. Yeah. I mean, you will often... And I'll be like, oh, they stalled the frontal, you know, when I see people just whips, you know, whip, you know, cascading out of the sky. Usually leads to a cascade, right? Because they realize, they go, oh, shit. Yeah, but I would

imagine... Yeah, but I'm... Yeah. I'd like to see those incidents. I mean, because what can happen with a lot of wings, and again, this is something that certification will never show you, or the grade on the paper will never show you, is that a paraglider can take a frontal, open, and then... And end up in parachutal stall, and then re-fly, and that's totally fine for certification. That's got nothing to do with certification, okay? What contends to happen is people can end up in that situation, and they're in parachutal, and they've applied a little brake as a natural input, and that's what develops it into a tail-slidey situation, which then they put their hands up and the glider shoots, and it's recovering in that shitty air that it just took the frontal from.

And that's what causes the... Rather than the wing just going directly back into stall, it will probably go into that vague area of stall and back-fly, which is provoked by another small input from the pilot.

I guess I've seen it almost so frequently, I'm on a bit of a crusade to educate people that if you get a frontal, to treat it, to slap it, but then let it fly. You know? Yeah. And be really prepared to be... You know, for less input. Less is more sometimes. To treat it rough at first, but then... Because, anyway, it's just something I've noticed over the last few years, where I'm like, well, there's another one where they didn't just let it fly. So...

I think this is one of those things where, you know, I was flying on quite a rowdy day a few years back, and I think pilots... And I got into a parachutal situation and didn't recognize it. I recognized that I... Needed to let the wing fly, but in my mind, my hands were all the way up. And I think, you know, when we do a lot of SIV training, we recognize parachutal much better. And because our hand... When we get tight and anxious and scared, our hands start coming down. Right, I was hands up. So you hear, Nick, all these incidents you've seen, I'll bet you anything that pilot will say if you ask him, my hands were up. I don't know why it wasn't flying. And you weren't. Your hands are down in your ass. And I think this is one of the...

One of the things that SIV really teaches us is that cognizance of what really is hands up versus, my hands were up, man. And you look at the video, and they're scratching their ass. Yeah,

but not always. I mean, you can also... If a glider frontals and opens and enters that parachutal stage, you can have your hands near your shoulders or even above your shoulders, and it can still hold it in a parachutal storm. So I think, again, this goes back to training, doesn't it? It goes back to SIV. It goes back to our awareness. It goes back to our comfort zones, you know. If I'm... I mean, taking a collapse in real life is never a pleasant experience. But if I'm high above the terrain, it's not something that really bothers me because I'm so practiced and trained in it. And I think that's just born from training and practice. And I think that's why I'm a great advocate of SIV.

And continuous training so that when you're in these situations, you're in the right mindset. You're in the right headspace to be able to make the right input to avoid these cascading events. Because it's these cascading events that... I've always said that, you know, the worst thing the air can do to me is collapse the wing. And as long as you can deal with collapses, everything else shouldn't really be an issue. But it's the cascading event that occurs after the collapse that occurs normally because of a... Wrong input or no input or whatever. The wrong action at the time to get the glider flying. So, again, it comes back to defensive flying. It's like we're saying, you know, you don't let the glider collapse. You don't let the glider go into auto-rotation.

Auto-rotation is a term I really dislike. I don't know if it's become a kind of norm. But I really fight back against auto-rotation because there is no auto. You are the pilot. You are always in control. Okay. So, never let the wing rotate. Okay. And don't fob it off as it went into auto-rotation. No. You, the pilot, allowed the wing to go into rotation. Okay. Don't resolve responsibility for that.

So, convenience is a big one. And this is one we've always talked about. Being willing to be inconvenienced being a key to safety. So, one of the top four pitfalls, not wanting to face inconvenience. It kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Yeah. I mean, you... You taught me a lot about this. You know, when we started flying the Intermountain Wide Open out here, you know, you might as well land where it's really safe to land. You don't need to just push the gamut at the end of the day and, you know, keep things reasonable. Yeah. I think

for me, too, there's a style for flying cross country that how I finish is important. That I don't just fly into the middle of nowhere and uncertainty and kind of just... And danger, essentially. That I'm going to choose to finish the flight in a reasonable, logical place. As that is part of the fashion of flying a successful... Landing is important to successfully completing a cross country flight. So, if I can land by a beer and a burger, even better. It

turns out. Overrated.

No, I mean, we... I've seen this and I learned this from accident reports when I was editing the Yushma magazine. It was the number one reason was people... I didn't want to land far from my car. I, you know, I didn't want to walk this far. There was mud over there. There were... It's a constant excuse of reasons. But, you know, what I teach and some of what I'm guiding is to, you know, for people to, you know, lean into the suffering. And yell adventure and enjoy that. Because you'll remember that time when you had to crawl over that fence and through the mud. And much more so than the flight you had for the next decade. And so, you know, trying to turn it around and saying that is the best place to land. That is the safest place. And especially after long flights. When you're tired. You're dehydrated. You know, maybe it's day five of a course or a competition.

Really picking the best place to land. And I think for me, it's, you know, why I don't just fly in the middle of nowhere. Because when I'm tired, I want to go over and fly the field a number of times. I want to have enough altitude that I'm approaching the place so that I can look for power lines. And I can look for water. And I can look for all the things that, you know, and find a nice place to land. And I think that's really, to me, the crux of it. But, you know, remember, that just is where the adventure begins. Or starts is often when you land. Especially if you're far out in other countries.

Is there anything else on that list, Nick? Traffic

pattern is number four.

Great. Yeah, I was going to say. Fly

predictably. No late braking maneuvers. Be aware of who's around. Communicate, I would add. Use hand signals and gestures if you're having trouble. You know, trying to really, you know, link up and yell at a point. And then also, you know, be a nice driver. You know, don't be the aggressive. Don't be that guy or girl that is, you know, the New York driver.

Top six ways to fly safe. Practice reserve deployment. Number one. What's your rule of thumb for reserves, Russ?

Don't throw them. Don't need to throw them. Okay.

Yeah. Good qualifier. Yeah, I mean, don't throw them. There's

something else coming here.

Yeah. Avoid situations where you need to use parachutes. I don't really have any golden rules. Rules of thumb for parachutes other than, you know, if in doubt, get it out is always a good thing. That's why training is really important because when you train, you understand the wing. You recognize points where you can recover or, more importantly, you recognize places where, okay, this is irrecoverable now. I can't do anything here. And once you reach that situation, that's when you just need to get your... Your parachute out. I like flying with two parachutes. The reason I like flying with two parachutes is because my most likely position to be when I need to throw a reserve will be fully cravat with about 15 twists and I'm in a sat position.

These are kind of irrecoverable positions, places to be, pretty much. And in such instances, it's very common for the parachute to enter into the wing and not deploy. So the idea of having a second chance, a second go at that is appealing to me. Whether it is actually better or not, I don't know, but it is appealing to me. So flying with two reserves, knowing your limits, understanding glider controls so you can recognize situations that, A, you can recover from, or, B, you cannot recover.

While we're talking about reserves, Russ, do you have a suggestion for when we should be repacking? When we should... Take that on. Is that a springtime event for you or should it be for everybody? Trimming and repacking?

Yes, I think repacking at least once a year is a very wise thing to do. We've seen with studies that they can create static energy which can keep them in their pack. But I think... I'm no expert in this, but I don't often see really clean deployments that result in the parachute. Not opening. Normally, as soon as a small amount of air catches in one of the skirts, it bangs open relatively quickly with modern designs nowadays. If you have an under seat reserve, it's a good idea to not habitually sit down on your harness on it all the time and crush it. But I think the biggest influence in the opening times is whether it goes into your wing or not.

So deploying it in such a way to reduce that. Chance is your best option, but most manufacturers will recommend a six-month to an annual repack annually, I'd say, is the best.

And how many reserve deployments have you guys seen in your career and how many people have been injured from them?

I've seen a lot of reserve deployments because I used to teach SIV. So I've seen quite a few there. And when you spend a lot of time in all of the nays, you see reserve deployments almost every day from Brandon. Yeah. I've also seen a lot in the testing, in the certification process, and in the testing world, we get it occasionally. And also from ACRO, looking at a lot of ACRO, that's where you're most likely to see reserve deployments. But I don't think I've seen many injuries of people landing under parachutes. So it's always a good idea to get it out nice and early. There's no point. There's no point in fighting a lost, you know, when the ship is sinking, just jump off.

I

think I've seen over 100 easily and just in competition. I saw, I want to say I saw 10 or 12 at one British Open in Peterhita once in a week. I mean, they were just getting them out. Anyway, I've never seen anyone injured. I try to impress that on people that they work really, really well, shockingly well, in my opinion. And again, get it out early. If you're going down and you don't know what to do, get your reserve out. Yeah.

Russ, can you refresh everybody? You're in that, you know, massive cravat, twisted up scenario. You're in a pretty violent auto rotation. How should you throw it?

I don't know. I don't have a great deal of direct experience here. So I'm working on anecdotal stories from ACRO friends. And people have been in these situations. I think the most important thing is a to locate your handle very quickly. If you look on the if you look on the Internet, Dr. Wilkes has done a really good. Matt Wilkes has done a really good study on it and how we naturally hand position goes down to our hip. So, first of all, you need to know exactly what times where your reserve handle is. If you're swapping and changing. Harnesses, then make sure you you really know exactly where your handle is.

Praxis going for your handle blindly and because what's it really important. And this is something I've learned recently is in very high G situations. Once your hand goes down to the reserve, if you miss it and your hand goes down lower, it's not coming back again. You can't lift your hand back up again unless you can reduce the G. Okay, so it's important that you get your hand. Handle first time every time and then it's you just have to do the best you can to throw it into clean space, but I'm not the most qualified to really.

I

was I was told that in that situation, you know, best to recover the auto rotation first, obviously, but it can't, you know, the that you throw it down, you throw it basically at your feet as hard as you can try to get it. That's the cleanest air, right? If we if we throw it behind us. Like we're taught that's where it can it can it's more likely to go into the wing if we were as opposed to throwing it down, but then also, you know, we have to think about the the space that we're in when we're in our auto rotation. You can think of it like a sat right and I think I think the down is is the thing but it's which is counterintuitive. I think that's where people screw it up is, you know, wait a minute. I'm throwing this down, but I believe that's the someone can correct me, but I believe well, that's I

think. That is counterintuitive, but I think that's pretty good. But it makes total sense. So thank you for that nugget, Gavin. Thank you.

Practice ground handling, which we've we've discussed. Trim your glider and look after your equipment. So, you know, after a season or, you know, it says 30 hours here. That seems short to me, depending on your glider. But I think still inspecting your glider, you know, treating it like an aircraft. And going through all that. What do you think about trimming gliders there, Russ, for zero?

I think trimming gliders is yes, it's important, but it's not the difference between having an accident or not. If you're glad it's slightly out of trim, you can't blame that on an accident. You know, there was something else that caused the accident that's not going to cause you an accident. It just means you lose a little bit of top speed, a little bit of trim speed, or maybe the handling is not quite as good as it or sharp as it could be. But, you know, it's it's a bit like smashing someone up the rear end in your car and blaming the fact that, well, you know, you'd worn your brake pads halfway down. You know, that was nothing to do with the incident. So, yeah, no, trimming the wing is important, but there's very few wings. I know modern wings that will be out of trim in terms of safety or causing an accident.

Avoid water landings. Hug a tree. Oh. Almost all tree landings are happy endings. Ditch and ditch well. Pretty good advice. Who doesn't like a happy tree landing? Yeah.

Happy ending.

Yeah, I think, you know, Rob Sporrer talked about this when I had him on the show that one of the one of the things he sees lead to a lot of accidents is people coming into the LZ and, you know, blowing their final and forcing it to the grass rather than hugging a tree. You know, so so just doing. Doing a last minute low turn or high G turn to try to because your peers are there and you don't want to look like an ass and you just forget that trees are really pretty nice in general.

Forecast your weather is the last one.

Guys, we've covered a lot of topics there. I think that was fantastic. Is there anything we missed? Anything summary or anything you guys want to want to end on?

Yeah, I think I think it's just important. Like we've sort of said earlier, it's really interesting listening to Nick's to the report there. I'm surprised that ground spiraling even makes it into a report like that, because it's not something that is generally done unless it's done by very competent pilots. But I think the major causes of accidents are certainly rustiness, poor training, lack of experience and flying conditions that are just too strong for us. And I think. If there's one takeaway from this whole discussion is that, you know, every day it's flyable doesn't mean it's flyable for you and especially this time of the year. And let's all be a little bit more like Nate and build up to it.

Gradually get the timing under our belts, get the training, identify where you're rusty, identify your weaknesses. You have to do that as a pilot. If you don't identify your own weaknesses as a pilot. You will not have a long and successful career. And as soon as you identify weaknesses, then that's that's the first hard step. And you can always make measures to improve it. But never be scared of not taking off.

I'm going to I'm going to reach out to Dylan Benedetti right now.

Yes, there you go. That's a nice thing to do in the spring. I appreciate you both, as does our community. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and sharing between the two of you. How many years? My goodness. A lot of experience here. So thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And I know our audience. Thank

you, Gavin. This is an amazing resource. And I hear constantly from people in the community how grateful they are for it. So keep up the good work.

Thank you, Gavin. Thanks for asking.

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