Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of Cloud Based Mayhem. This one took a lot of time. We have tried and failed several times with audio for some reason, well various reasons, with Manu Neubel, Germany 1, for the whole time he started in 2015 and through 2021, just like I have. So we did four races together, we both started at the same time, and I've been wanting to do more of these rewinds with the ex-Alps, with legends like Manu, and so we did it last week, didn't work, we tried a few times today, didn't work, but we finally got it. So, some really fun stories here from Germany 1, from Manu, and he's just had a little boy, and so he's also taking a break this year from the 2023 race, he and I will be watching from the sidelines.
But yeah, we share some fun memories, some fun highs and lows from the race, and stuff together and stuff apart, and I think you're really going to enjoy it. So, without further delay, please enjoy this really fun talk with my friend, Manuel Neubel, Germany 1. Cheers.
Manu, this is hysterical, man. I'm glad we're both still smiling, we're going to have fun with this, I promise. Man, we have bad luck with our recordings. We tried two years ago, that didn't work. We tried a week ago, that didn't work. We've tried all morning, this isn't working, but now it's going to work. It's going to work.
Yeah, we are now professional recorders, I would say. Thank you for having me, and fingers crossed that this time we have a nice, happy end.
Yeah, and we were just talking about, in the last attempt, talking about bad luck, and how we have to embrace bad luck, especially in the ex-Alps. We've both had some bad luck and some good luck. So, I'm excited to talk to you about your ex-Alps campaigns. You and I have done the same. We started in 2015 together, and we both ended, at least maybe temporarily, or maybe not, let's see. But in 2021, we're both taking a break this time. When we tried a week ago, I got to see your new little one. I take it, let's catch everybody up before we get into the ex-Alps. Just catch everybody up with your life. What's going on, and why aren't you competing this year?
Yeah, I'm an out-professional. I'm an out-professional recorder, and I'm really busy recording interviews. So, I have no time for training ex-Alps.
No, just kidding. No, yeah, my little son Linus is here, and I'm really happy that I made this decision to be able to spend full time with him and my wife Anastasia. And yeah, we have no family around really close by, so it's really, wow. When I made the decision, I already expected something, but now it's even more time, but it's also on the same hand. It's so nice to have the little boy, and I'm not regretting this decision in one second. So, I'm totally happy that I'm not under the pressure to participate in ex-Alps and trade for it. And on the same time, I always would have the feeling leaving my family at home and alone.
And yeah, it can really take some nerves.
Yeah, I wouldn't have a clear mind for training and also maybe not in the competition.
Yeah, yeah. I think you've already learned this, just even though your son is tiny still, but man, they change fast. And that was the big one for me. Fallon was born right immediately after the 2017 ex-Alps. In fact, we had a whole protocol for if Maddie was back home in the States, obviously, but if she went into labor early, my team had to decide, okay, we're going to tell him. We're not going to tell him.
We're not going to tell him.
It's so much. So, well, I applaud that. I take it you're still maybe, you're a maybe for 2025? Are you thinking, you know, we'll see how things go?
Yeah, I definitely have this in mind. And yeah, I just thought also, now it's the time also when he's so young and he cannot walk on his own, then it's even more, or it's different maybe. But when he's a bit older and maybe, yeah, could even join the supporting team, let's see, I don't know, in two years. But yeah, we are open for everything. And I still love ex-Alps. I still love the training. I still love everything, which is in combination with the application of the ex-Alps. So I definitely have it in mind. And it's for sure just a temporary thing. But let's see how the world looks in two years. I'm quite a bit grayer than you are, Manu. But how old are you?
Look on the side. I have a lot of gray hair starting. It's coming. I'm 35. 35.
Okay. So that was, you know, you got, you're younger than, I mean, my first ex-Alps was, I think I was 42. Yeah, 42. So you got plenty of time. No problem.
I think so too, yeah. As long as my body is not telling me other things and I am still motivated and yeah. Cool.
Well, you know, we did this a week ago, so you know all this, but just for the listeners to remind them, basically what we're going to do is kind of go back in time. And relive the highs and lows from your campaigns starting in 2015. That was, I believe the first year they had the prologue. Yes. And we were still up in Fuscial, AMC for the prologue. We had wicked weather. It was very, very hot. I think it was record-breaking heat the first three days of the race. And, you know, all the ex-Alps are kind of dictated, in my mind at least, by, mostly by the prologue. And they're each very different because of the weather. This was still when we started in early July rather than now.
It's more kind of early June. But the 2015 race was dictated by wind. We had, at that time, it was the longest that it had ever been. We still ended in Monaco. We hopped back and forth across the Alps a few times. I think it was almost 1200k. But the wind was really strong. Not the first couple days, it was beautiful. And then there was a little bit of a downpour. There was a lot of accidents. You know, they don't ever really publish the bad stuff. But, you know, Toma came pretty close to dying. Tom was rescued out of a tree. Yeah, he got his face ripped off. He landed in 100 mile an hour winds. Michael Vichy threw his reserve, landed in a lake and almost drowned. Oh,
that was scary. That was
scary. His story, man. I've had him on the podcast. Oh, God, terrifying. Michael Gebhardt just said, enough, too much wind. Yeah. So there was a lot of wind, but a lot of flying. I think Chrigel got there in eight days. I got there in 10. You were just behind me in ninth. And so you and I had a good race at the end. We're going to hear about that here in a little bit. But yeah, it was both of our rookie seasons. And I'd love to hear a couple of highlights and maybe a hard time that went on. I know there were some bees at one point.
Don't spoil it. No, no.
Maybe. I've been thinking about that.
Okay. Yeah. The good thing is if you record the things two or three times, you can afterwards remember things which you missed to tell the people. And just when you were telling about the wind and last time I completely missed this experience. There's this one day where I was seriously and not just like a little bit flying backwards with 33 kilometer per hour. I was I was this was this valley event gap there next to Prius or area more or less. There's a huge lake where it's normally a lot of wind. But at this day, it was crazy. And
the good thing.
And the big lake
down by gap. Yeah. Oh, man, I got slammed there. That's where I know I've ever been to getting dead.
Yeah, I guess my friend, Fabi, is now disappointed that I cannot remember the name because he's flying there. And I was. I was actually also flying there afterwards. And he explained me everything how this works, this area. But yeah, at this day, I had no idea. I made a stupid or like I thought in my intuition was not really working there. So I ended up suddenly flying like crazy, like it was one, two kilometer backwards in the valley. But the good thing was, as you were trained at this episode, 2015, with this lot of wind, I could see actually in this situation, I was not even so scared because I could see a huge field behind me. And I could really judge. But by the days before this day, I had a really good feeling on how the wind was at the ground directly. So I could really judge that it was not so crazy at the ground.
So when I was landing, it was maybe five to 10 kilometer backwards. And there was a huge field where we're actually spiraled down in front of the field so that I don't miss it. And yeah, and then I thought I was the hardest guy here in the race. And then until I met you and you told me like 80 meter per second sink effort, like, no way. Hey. He's accelerating. I asked Chrigel, actually, I didn't tell you this story. I asked Chrigel and said like, Hey, Gavin told me like 80 meters sink. Come on. I mean, he's a bit accelerating, right? And he said, no, at this day, I had 25 meters sink. And I was like, what?
Okay. Yeah. This day was crazy. Yeah. People have
heard that story, but that was, I mean, I still, I remember sitting in Monaco, you know, whatever. A couple of days later and we were all telling our horror stories, you know, Aaron and Paul and, and, and everybody just had these nightmare stories of crazy, you know, errands of watching Andra almost get killed his supporter. Cause back then you were allowed to fly together, but this, that day, and it was in Vars and I was just having one. It was beautiful. It was amazing. I was catching up to the guys in front. I thought everything was perfect. And I suddenly I'm in all this wind, exactly where you're talking about. And I was kind of trying to cross in the bar. There's an, there's an island there and I, and I got in there and, and top landed. Cause I couldn't figure out what was going on. And when I relaunched, it was fine. And that's cause I was in the Lee. I didn't realize it.
And, and as soon as I tried to get in through this coal, it just got batted out of the air. And it was literally, there was these ponds for, for the, for snowmaking. And I thought that's my only, that's my only way to survive. I've got to get to the pond and then I'll just full stall it into the pond. At least I'm going in the water. And, and, and, but later on, I looked at my track log, it was 20 meters down. It was just, I had kind of a, I had a, almost a, a breakdown after that. I started crawling. I was totally fine. I landed fine, but I started just thought, man, this is, this is too much now. This is too much. I can
imagine.
Yeah. And, um, about the highs and the lows, and this was just a story which I afterwards thought, Hey, it's important or interesting to tell, but, uh, yeah, the, the highs and the low for sure that, uh, low and high started, uh, before the race, when I broke my patella just, uh, less than four months before the race. And I got this huge metal thing sticking out like one, two centimeters out of my patella. And actually all, all doctors said like, forget it. The exams is over for you for sure. Um, and then I, I just said like, okay, it sounds really clear that I have no chance. It also looked, makes no sense. That, uh, my whole patella tendon was full with one metal piece and, uh, yeah.
And also, yeah, not only one metal piece, even more. And so I thought like, okay, but I just want to make the best out of it. So let's, let's try to, uh, to, uh, take part in the race and maybe after one or two days I drop out, but at least I have some information or experiences for the next episode to be better there for sure. It won't be a bad thing. As long as. I don't damage my knee really strongly for further years. So, um, yeah, I made this decision with my support and, uh, then it ended up reaching Monaco, which was of course, uh, uh, absolutely dream. But before I reached Monaco, there was a nightmare again, which was the second lower.
And it was really, um, a piece out of many, many little things which went wrong. It started that. I made a. Stupid decision, really close. I could even already see that that the sea of Monaco that was really good prepared and knew exactly my line, what to fly. But that that can series clouds in front of the stuns or, and that's why I've fought like I need to reach Gavin in front of me running towards the goal and that to catch that. No, actually, I didn't know that. I thought you were already in goal. And then the Cirrus Cloud made one turn already super weak, and I need to get over a little call to make it to the next valley.
And it was a matter of maybe I was over the call 200 meters, and then I tried over the call to glide over there, and then suddenly I got headwind and sink. And it was a few seconds where I thought, oh, this will be very close, oh, this will be super close. And then I thought, oh, I'm not going to make it, but I still kept on pushing towards the call. And maybe three, four seconds later, I said, oh, I'm not making it. And there's everywhere trees in this horrible landscape there of Monaco. So I turned around and realized, oh, shit, I'm now really low for this plateau to make it even back to the thermal. And I had backwind and still a lot of sink, and within maybe five to ten meters, I sunk into the trees, and really with a lot of impact, actually.
And there the nightmare began. So I hang in the tree, couldn't reach my supporter, or a very long time, suddenly, then I pushed the emergency button on the Garmin, but just to tell them that I'm okay, but that I'm hanging in the tree. Then I could suddenly communicate with them and said, like, please no helicopter. Suddenly a helicopter was coming, and it took me, to make it a little bit shorter, five hours to make it out of, like, maybe one hour out of the tree. And on my own, then to find a trail or something was really hard. There were thorns everywhere, and just little trails made out of maybe wild boars or pigs or whatever, where I just crawled my way to have any chance to reach my supporter.
And after five hours, we made it. And then after we spoke with the meet director, we thought, like, okay, now it's just a walk into the goal. Gavin is anyway out of reach in front of me, and Nick Naden's behind me. He shouldn't reach me anymore. So easy. We just walked a whole night, and it will be easy. And I could even leave my glider in the trees and take another glider just as ballast to make the last meters. But then it was really the nightmare started. Suddenly my live tracking was not working. So a runner came and gave me a new live tracking device, which was still not working. Then in the middle of the night, I made this, or we made the decision that I take a little shortcut, which I ended up not doing. I ended up completely getting lost, could not communicate because my, or I could communicate, but had no internet.
So I just could call with my supporter. And it was more like, where are you? Yeah, I'm here on the street seeing lights. And yeah, the left curve. Ah, yeah, that makes sense. So maybe you have to go right or left.
And then my Garmin backup device didn't work because there was an airspace bug hiding exactly the maps. At this area, I could not recharge my internet because my provider had a bug and a malfunction. And to make it a bit short, it was really no acceleration, just like this. And then when I finally reached Monaco at 5, we thought I will reach it at 1 o 'clock or so. And then suddenly at 5 o 'clock in the morning, after endless height meters, I reached it. And I thought like, now I really made it. And all the bad luck is now gone. I reached the goal. Nothing can happen anymore till the next morning, when at 11 o 'clock, I, oh, no, actually a bit earlier. Yeah, no, 11 o 'clock, I could sleep till 11.
And then I stood up. And the first thing what you need to do maybe after sleeping is to get a little bit lighter. And I just went there, jumped over some huge rocks. And yeah, did my thing there for two, three seconds. And suddenly something stung me in my butt. And I was just like trying to escape. And so I just made my things next to the beehive. You know? I got stuck. I got three stings in my leg. I just. The bees are like, what are
you doing, man? What are you doing to our home? Yeah.
And I was really like, OK, I'm not going to fly down to the lake. It's to the sea. It's way too, I'm doomed. And it's too scary, all these things. I'm scared now. But in the end, I made it. And then the bad luck stopped finally.
You know, I told you this the last time we talked, last week. But I want to say it again because it was so funny. But that morning, we had this, we got this great beta from somebody in Australia that was just watching us. And we did the same shortcut crap that you did. It was awful. It was, got completely lost. And Ben just got shredded because he got so upset at himself because we couldn't find the trail. And so he was just yanking these thorns out of the ground. And we finally got up to this launch. We had no water. It was hot. I was out of my brain. I had no ability to fly. And I blew it. The cloud showed the way to go. But I was scared to go away from goal and fly deeper into the mountains. So I tried to go straight. And I made it 5K. It was a complete waste of effort. And I landed. And the live tracking showed that I was 3K away.
But the route was 14K. And it was 3,000 feet of gain. And I just broke down. And Bruce caught up with me. And he goes, okay, so here's some food. Get going. And I said, no, I can't. I'm done. And he said, really? You're going to end 14K away from goal. You're done. And he got me going again. And that was good. But I was just so slow. I was barely moving up this hill. And about halfway up, he calls me and he said, you got to run. You got to run, man. Who's in the air? He's going to beat you. You know? And I saw, really? Oh, my God. No way. Because I wasn't going to catch Ferdy. Ferdy was already in. And so I didn't have any reason to race. And so I start kind of jogging up this hill. And I'm just pouring.
I'm pouring sweat. And I'm so exhausted. And my feet are trashed. And then about half an hour later, Bruce called me again. And he said, yeah, no, it's okay. You can go slow. He landed in a tree.
But I never knew all the back story. I didn't know it was such a nightmare. That's crazy.
I'm sure you're falling. Is he good? Oh, that's really. Oh, yes. That was the
first thing I was thinking. Yes, for sure. Oh, is he okay? No, he's not.
Totally.
But yeah. In the end. Hey, it was such a nice race. So many people also. The people might not know the story from Stefan Cooper, who landed in the zoo of the Princess of Monaco. And he. That's right. When he landed, he said like, oh, there's a nice field, which was actually an airspace where he got the penalty. He landed there on the field in Monaco. And then elephant came out of the bus. And he thought like, oh, shit. Did I miss the crossing towards Africa? Or where am I? This is what you're saying.
Oh, my God. I forgot all about that. That's really. Yeah, the security
came in and locked him or like took him away.
They back to the race in a
moment, everybody. Okay, that's crazy. Do you remember that before we leave 2015 a real highlight, you know, something that I mean, obviously getting to Monaco is was a beautiful highlight. But do you remember something else from the race? A specific flight or a specific moment? That was really special. You still think about today?
Hmm.
Yeah, actually, I think the flight towards Monaco was the highlight because I was almost crying when I saw the sea and I thought like I cannot imagine it. I made we made it the first episode with my broken patella against all the odds. Everybody telling you and I have no chance and I was such in reach like and actually we made it. But at this moment, it was really emotional when I saw the sea and I also. I made some messages for my supporting team. Hey, we are going to make it. Yes. I see the sea. I see the sea, which was actually at this day. I did the 100k flight or something really fast. But then maybe half an hour later said like I'm hanging in the tree. No, no, see right now anymore.
It's cool to have the dichotomy between the really high and the really low on the same day. Do you you I didn't ask you this before but the you've mentioned that you really knew how to do that section of the course. What is your what are your thoughts on scouting beforehand? Because I was really surprised before the 2015 race. Remember we did the media thing at Red Bull and I was sitting next to Chrigel and you know, and I'm just in awe is Chrigel and I was we were talking before they started doing the interview and I asked him, you know, hey, do you go? How much do you Scout? How much do you go view the course and he said not at all. I don't look at it at all because if I look at it in June, it's totally different in July and I don't want to have preconceived notions. And that blew me away because I had been scouting a lot. I was very nervous and I was trying to go everywhere.
I could but what's your views on that?
Yeah, my view is similar. I mean if you're Chrigel for sure you have to say like he's like a decade old competition pilot and like he's flying competition for decades before you even started X-Alps. Then he made like all these episodes like I can even compared to be like the four episodes. I made X-Alps. I learned so much about the Alps which helps you a lot and. I would say the same like if you just go there once and you just see it in a different in spring and then you're there in more stable condition for sure. It can lead you to a different to bad decisions may even so if you would want to Scout it, I would recommend to do it one year earlier the same time, but then you don't know the route. So it's really hard and just very short before X-Alps.
It's also your busy with other things. So I'm more relying on. Asking people or looking maybe the for example this time 2015. I studied a lot of the approaches towards Monaco which were quite similar from former episodes like two or three years. I had the track logs and this helped me especially in this area a lot to navigate. Yeah,
because that's that's really the hardest part of the course in my mind and it's like you said there's nowhere to land. There's a lot of wind. There's a lot of sea breeze. There's there's it's the only way to get it. You've got airspace stability and you're exhausted. It's at the end of the race. It's in a lot of way. Well, we'll get to we'll get to 2021 when they change the course and that was for those of us. I think I think for those that hadn't been to Monaco probably that was a disappointment. But for those that have I hated Monaco. I didn't I didn't like ending in the concrete jungle and have been very vocal about that. But that's the
downside for sure. But the upside was really I mean, it's called Red Bull X-Alps Cross Alps. All right. So you have to cross the Alps and yeah, but you're right for sure. Like once you're there in Monaco after landing on the float, it takes a couple of hours and then you just don't want to go out. Yeah, for sure.
For sure. Okay. So 2017 was the first time I believe in the history of the race that no one flew one day. Our first day was was just dumping rain and nobody flew that day. There was a lot of running.
And so the first time I think that we went south of the the you know, we went all the way down to Slovenia. And so the first time we made a move, you know, immediately to the south side of the Alps and so really interesting course and really bad weather for the most part. There was lots of good flying but there was a lot of over development and a lot of storms and a lot of gust fronts. And so that was a much wetter X-Alps than 2015. But take us back to 2017.
Yeah, 2017 was really nice.
I had a very good time with my team like it was really flowing and we had nice time. That's also always very important for me. Yeah, it was same team. She knew you'll see and maybe was Sasha there already there. I don't know for sure same team but maybe plus one. I mean, they're all the same. Always people coming and joining joining and maybe for example, I think it this year. But blue was also there for half of the wreath race and we had really nice time really showing.
Yeah to to raise nice but on the same hand to be able to enjoy it making good decisions and yeah to the almost the end where I got this heat exhaustion and yeah, we just decided that because yeah, it was not good for me. I have to continue with heat is exhaustion. They're the brutal heat of Piedmont and yeah, so we just decided it's better for me to withdraw that was but on the other hand it was also afterwards when we saw what how the other pilots did after we withdraw it was really not a nice experience anymore. You could not fly. It was very stable. It was full with musketeer while walking.
Yeah, windy. Yeah. And yeah, so that was that was one of the
few times that you know, I had quite a really bad start. We made a bad call on on using the night pass the first night and I was quite tired and made some silly mistakes early and it was one of the few times where you all out front. It got slowed down by the weather and we had kind of a chance to to make some ground from from behind a little bit which was unusual. Usually the you know, Kregel's out front and he has better weather. The whole way but it was really windy. That was a I believe that first year that Benoit only two people made it Chrigel and Benoit and then Paul was in Monaco but didn't make pay. You made it to the to the beach. But yeah, it was it was quite a slow year especially at the end because everybody was just trucking it on foot but you had quite a neat that was the first time I had seen and maybe since then too you had a really nice gaggle for a lot of the race.
It was you and Ferdy remind me who else that was. Was that Simon's first year too? Yeah, Simon maybe. I cannot remember exactly. But you had a nice it was kind of a cool there was like four or five of you that were doing a lot of flying together. Nick Neyman I think sometimes. Nick, yeah.
And all the time someone else. Sebastian Huber was also sometimes with me but I think I made one really nice decision where which I'm actually proud of. That's maybe my highlight if you're talking about the highs and lows 2017. There it was the turn point. Yeah. We were at Monte Baldo, Lago di Garda and we made this huge push up there the 1800 height meters up and the terminals were just they were already really good work working around us but not at Lago di Garda. And I knew also from scouting before and preparation that the other side San Simone or Limone or how is it not San Simone Limone or so the other side of the Lago di Garda is very often stable.
And also the sun was not shining perfectly in and if you do if there's if this side is not working you're running out of options so you cannot even glide around the mountains in the nice direction you cannot land because it's impossible to land and also impossible to restart. So, I was there up there with Sebastian Hooper was catching up when I was waiting there and there was Stanislav Meyer and someone else. And at Monte Baldo at the takeoff which I know also from aqua flying and other things. Was that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that altitude and there is like a landing place up there on the other side maybe 1k glide but then i spoke with my supporter and we said like hey it's it's a good thing because uh think one or two sun is love and and and sebastian hoover they had already prepared their gear so i thought like hey if i'm the first one and they had other opinions they want to go to limone and i said like oh it will work there and i thought like it's too risky i'm running out of option if it's not working so if i do the the little hike more maybe 250 meter down and on the other side 500 up i can easily glide on the next mountain and i can even reach a terminal there and i have a lot of more options afterwards and it's also not so scary there because i think you were landing there no it was gaspar petio you too no i landed i
landed in the trees i i i just tagged the turn point up from the ground i flew across the the lake in the morning hiked up got the turn point flew back across the lake but by then the wind was howling and i just stuffed myself back in one of those canyons on the other side and there was nowhere to land there was nowhere to go i just landed in the trees and luckily it just came down out of the trees and i could keep going but it was really scary very violent it was blowing 50 miles an hour it was crazy
i wanted to avoid this so to to to yeah then we decided hey if i glide on the next mountain and also the landing places where just glide reach so i was a bit scared if i don't make it to this little gap in the forest i i would have to fly really the completely wrong direction and even further down to find the next landing place and to hike up even more so we said like hey come on we have still the gear packed so let's run down this 250 meters trail running fast down and on the other side up and then we have two advantage because like sebastian hooper had the gear prepared so he could not really if i would make it flying and he said oh this worked good he would maybe follow me and when we walked down he decided I decided to go to Limone. And when we started, we could turn up really nicely on 3,000 meters over Lago di Garda.
This was really the most impressive moment. And then I made a huge crossing and a huge flight.
And the other one was stuck in Limone.
Is Limone just on the east
side of the lake? Is that the little town over the other side? Okay. Yeah,
west over the lake, but it's the southeast side, yes. Sorry, west side of the lake, yeah. Good decision for sure, yeah.
Ah, okay, cool. And then from there, did you take more the southern route? Remember how Paul did it? He did way south in the Littlefoot Hills. No, it was north. Okay, so Bellazona, Locarno, that route? Okay, cool, which was fast. Yeah, cool.
Let's see, that was the highlight, low light? Was the injury, was the having to withdraw?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Tell me more about that. So it was just, you were low electrolytes or just worn out? No,
I could not, the food and drinks were not staying inside and I got fever and all this stuff. So heat is the killer then also for dehydration and all this stuff. And then we said like, okay, it's over now.
Ah, and you were kind of up near Monterosa or?
Just our Ostar Valley. Yeah,
Monterosa Valley,
almost out of the flat. So they would have been just hot, hot walking in front of me. Okay, got, yeah, yeah.
That was terrible at the end. Okay, 2019, as a reminder to those listening, 2019 was crazy hot and stable at the end of the race. The last few days just, I mean, record breaking. We had this massive kind of stability come off of Africa. I know the sky was filled with, dirt and dust. And I remember walking through Chamonix. It was a hundred degrees on the ground and in the morning, it was crazy. And that was the same time that all those people top landed Mont Blanc. So if you could get above the stability, you were loving it like Toma did. The early part of the race was, was nice and sunshine and easy, but the, I never had any wind.
Everywhere we went, you could launch. It was no, there weren't really storms so much. The middle of the race, there wasn't any sun. But it wasn't ever, I remember 2019 is never being dangerous. It was just, you know, we had interesting weather, but it was never, most of the X-Alps have been at times really pretty dicey, especially 2021, but we'll get to that. But 2019 was, was kind of mellow in a lot of ways.
Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, the only danger was maybe that you rip your gear off because you're so angry about the stability. Oh my God. Because I mean, in one hand, it's not that you're not going to be able to do it. In one hand, it was so, so nice weather, as you said, no wind, no, a lot of sun, no thunderstorms, but there were also so weak terminals and so much patience was required. So yeah, like when we saw the forecast, we thought like, hey, in the middle of the race, hey, we will make it to Monaco for sure. Nice, nice, nice. We had a really good race. I felt really good physically. And yeah, it was a good position. I think most of the time after this race. And yeah, so but then like three days before the end, there was this this huge heat wave coming in.
And like this was this day where even Michael Sanders, he didn't make any terminal progress the whole day with full power sunshine in the middle of 3500 meter high mountains. I did struggle a lot. And I was the other rich, which I made progress luckily. But this was crazy, like stability wise. And yeah, this was maybe my low, like this, this moment when I thought like, oh, this will be now really close. If I don't, if the progress is so slow because of the stability. Now, even Monaco can be in danger. So, yeah, this was the this was
the titless titless year, too. I think Chrigel was the only one that top landed titless, which was his. That was the game winner for sure. That game over then that that night. That was. That
was an
amazing flight from Davos up to there. But I think pretty much everybody did about 5000 meters on the titless day. That was that was a monster. Holy cow. I got it. I got up there late in the afternoon. It was hammering snow and really windy and totally unlaunchable. And I got in the in the the the the top of the gondola area. And I thought, oh, what a beautiful place. I'm just going to sleep here and have the most wonderful night. And my supporters were going, you're not going to sleep there. You're getting. You're
getting off
that hill. Get outside and wait for a break. And no, it's hammering snow. It's it's windy. It's scary. I don't want to fly. No, get outside. Go in it. They were right. I got
off the
hill. Man, that
was a big day. Yeah, it was. Yeah, I did also 5500 meters. I can remember this. This day. Height meters. Brutal.
We we started calling you the comeback kid right around then. Or maybe it was. It was. I can't remember which. But you. You had tended to have slower starts and then really started moving well. And that was definitely one of those years. You had a great end of the race. And we'll get to 21 where you had an unbelievable finish. Just incredibly fast. But what do you chalk that up to? You. How do you. How do you kind of pace yourself that you seem to get stronger and stronger as the race goes by?
Yeah, I think I just have not a very big problem to. Make decision even if they harm your ego, you know. So, for example, if I'm in a race and someone running next to me and they're overtaking me, I give a shit because I think, is this the right pace for me? Is this the right speed? Is this the right decision? And if they're overtaking me, I have no problem. And I'm I'm really good and like keeping my own pace, I would say. And so I still think the race is so long and you can see it every time and every episode at the end. Very many mistakes were done by other pilots. And maybe it's not that I'm making. I mean, for sure, it was like two or three episodes.
It was not working good for me at the beginning. And then in the end, I was extraordinary lucky. And at the beginning, I was extraordinarily unlucky, I would say. But also, I just think that I keep my energy to the very end because you still have a lot of opportunities in the last days. To push out all the power you have left. And yeah, 10 days are long or 12 days.
Highlight for 2019. Highlight was the nice flight when we had already big doubts and we knew we need to do two very good days to have any chance to reach Monaco. And the first day, the day before the last day, I did a huge cross country flight from almost Sao Hilaire. To Monaco. I took the turn point Monteviso, which was stunning. Together with Gaspar Petillo, we were flying. It was such a nice thing. I loved this, how we combined our forces and it was so nice, the flying. And then even in the evening, the last term, in the very last term, we made it almost till the sunset and knew that with this huge 150 kilometer flight, we were able to have Monaco and reach the last day.
He is proof positive. That you don't have to have a very solid body to compete in the ex-Alps. It's remarkable. I mean, he's so slow on the ground. He's got such bad, his knees are worse than mine. And every time I've been on the ground with him, it's just, I can't maintain his pace. It's too slow. Now. Okay. See you later. And then he always passes me in the air. He's such a good pilot. Yeah. That must've been beautiful flying with him. That's beautiful. I had never flown through Le Grave from St. Hilaire. I crossed the, and then hiked back up and then had a beautiful flight. Almost to Brienzone and then a gust front put me down, but it was, that is an amazing, I want to go skiing in there. That's a beautiful part of the world.
Yeah. I never had seen this landscape before. And I was never there and it was really nice experience for sure. Yeah.
That was where Aaron Durogati was flying through and he was so tired. He was watching YouTube videos in the air to stay awake.
Okay.
I'm curious which one.
Yeah. Right. I know. Yeah. We want to know that. So before we go to 2021. For those listening who are rookies or maybe thinking about doing the X-Alps after four campaigns, what do you wish you would have known in 2015 that you know now? How, what would you change in terms of training or approach or team or anything? Hmm. Good question.
I think in 2015, I had not such an idea about how the well events and how also the protected areas are working. That's why I also made this huge mistake. I actually flew the full Vantory, which was maybe like on the line, but like on the shortest line, but afterwards, it's obvious for me that the wind has to go through there and I had not such a good understanding. And I was actually even not so comfortable to flying in huge mountains. I can remember when I was there in Matta Valley taking turn point Matta and I was, oh my gosh, all this huge 4,000 people. I had like 500 meters mountains around me. Oh my God, the glaciers and everything. It's really breathtaking.
So when I, when I took the turn point, my mind was a little bit like trying to get out of this area again, but very often in cross country flying, I think it's better to stay in the higher mountains and to stay in the protected areas than to fly to the big valleys where the strong well events are. Hmm.
Yeah. That was, I learned that in 2015 going into Matterhorn. Everybody that went in and went back out like you do got hammered and I, we just stayed high and flew to Burbea and it was, it was on, it was spicy. That was, you know, I think Hansa and the Korean flew in, in, in wave that day. It was so strong, but it was, it works. Yeah, you're right. That's good advice. Okay.
2021 crazy weather, at least for many people, it was scary. Again, a bunch of accidents. It was a lot of fun. A couple of proper fear injuries, you know and again, they don't publish much about this, but the, some, some pretty scary weather, especially the day that Chrigel had his big breakout move. I was going the other way and, and he said he didn't feel much firm, but boy, I was seeing some crazy strong south firm that day. And you know, the clouds just dumping in and it was pretty terrifying from my perspective, but you and I, and Theo thought we were making a really good move. Leaving the Geisberg the first day and man, did we have a bad first day? We were way off the back. But the comeback kid comes through, you had an amazing finish.
So tell us about, tell us about 2021.
Yeah. I mean, 20, 2021, it started, have you ever had this, this nightmares, like from competition flying or even X-Alps, like having the nightmare that you missed the start or forgot your GPS, like real nightmare in sleep. Did you ever had this?
Totally. Especially going into 2015, I had these just awful, oh my God, I missed the start. You know, that kind of stuff.
Exactly. I had this actually when, after I participated, I had not any more nightmares so often, at least maybe rarely, but before that I had this very many times. And this was actually the start, like in a nightmare, like everyone is flying away and really like we made this one thermal, we saw the Geisberg, we saw up there and then we found this first little thermal. Which I thought like, oh, perfect. That there will come a lot of more thermals. And normally I noticed from my competition experience, it's always better to like, it's really, really rarely to be one of the first. It's really rarely the best to be one of the first. It's more often good to have this little, how do you say like, um, uh, objects in front of you. A little mapping in
front of you. Yeah, exactly. Just people showing you the way.
Flying and showing you the thermals. And then I, I didn't went with many people, uh, to, to go with this. I've only flown over 200 or 300 meters over that guys back peak. And I've fought like that that we've come up with a lot of opportunity and suddenly after this one terminal and everyone that we've been that half of that group went, I sunk down with three and a half meters and that just top land that that guys back. And I've fought like that because it's better than that to even sink down further than that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that
that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that
that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that
wave of a launch. It was terrifying. I thought, oh, why didn't I top land with Manu and Theo? It was just, nothing was working right that day. That was terrible. I think it wasn't
Theo, it was Michael Lacher. Ah, yes, right. I still think, Theo was actually, I think he told me afterwards, he was like 100 meters above the ground when he left. Like, when he reached the next terminal, really, really low. And yeah, so we end up landing there and everyone made it up back in the next terminal, but we not. And then it took 10 minutes there at the takeoff, then we could fly to another terminal, miss another terminal, because it was still not high enough to go, and have to back to land up back there to take off again. And I mean, everyone is almost gone. And then finally, I mean, we left, but the conditions were getting worse and worse. We had no mapping pilots anymore. And so I mean, in the end, it was not a huge, huge downside. I mean, it was maybe to the leading guys, maybe 20k
disadvantage, but I mean, all the decisions, I would say, I would still say it was not a bad decision, but it was just really unlucky that it worked out like this, or it didn't work out.
Yeah, and it just got grayer and grayer. I mean, nothing was really working our way that day. We landed almost together and then hiked up to that little coal and got all ready to go, and then this isn't going to work, packed our stuff up again. It was just, yeah, it wasn't very flowy, using a word you like to use. Not flowy at all. Yeah, that was a tough one. Okay, how about was that the low point of the race? Was it just the first day?
The low point came afterwards. Actually, I was struggling before the race already with some problems of sleep, which I actually solved just two or three weeks ago. I think to tell the people it's interesting, I think it was just a matter of electro-smog, like being sensitive to the cables inside the wall, which I figured out finally. And yeah, so yeah, to and I just had like for years actually the problem of not being completely recovered after sleeping, feeling really like not good, even if I, I mean, I slept the whole night, but I still feel like weak and not good. And it was especially 2021 in front of the race really hard, and this took also away my nerves and I, during the first day and the second day, I was puking a lot of the time when I walked up, actually almost every morning,
and I was completely done with my nerves. I couldn't handle the easiest decisions actually, and so I was, after day two, after the glide down, I was crying really badly, crying and completely down and destroyed. And luckily my supporter and especially my wife came and they were hugging me and just sitting there for half an hour. I knew that it was super nice terminal time, actually I should have rushed up, but I just said I cannot, I cannot, I'm so weak and I'm so, I'm not at the right place here, this is not the right place for me, I said all the time because I'm not in the, I cannot handle it. And then they said like, hey, come on, let's do little steps, try little things and try to eat a little thing and try to just try another one day, stay in the race one more day, stay in the race one more day, and so I kept hanging from one day to another and then it improved day by day.
And I felt day by day better and my nerves came back and then in the end of course I made this incredible comeback which I never dreamt to be able to catch that far in front again after being so far back. How did that go?
What was the, how did you unlock that key there? What happened? Because I remember some of it from the live tracking, but well, I remember I was watching some of your, you know, at night when I would walk and stuff, I'd watch some of your videos, I remember there was one landing, there was a lot of wind, and you were kind of landing backwards, but I don't know if that was in the Aosta Valley, but you made this flight from there to Kronplatz, you had a huge flight at one point through there that was just amazing.
Yeah, I think I did a lot of little good decisions since before Fiesch. There was one day
when I reached Fiesch, I already made a good distance to all the other pilots who I started with this day, then the next day at Le Dente Auge, I made a little distance, but the big two days was for sure after Mont Blanc. I made this decision to run through Aosta, and actually I had really a lot of power then suddenly there. I was really running I don't know, maybe 25, 30 k's or so to be able to reach a takeoff, which was way better in my opinion, but it was a huge push, and also the takeoff was like my highest ascent ever, I think it was 2200 height meters, or to just reach a takeoff only from the valley to the takeoff. But we said hey, this will have a huge advantage because we don't need to make crossings there on the south side of the Matterhorn, was this actually, the Monte Rosa Massif.
We made it to the takeoff in time, and I felt good, and I made a nice strong flight around the Monte Rosa Massif, battled through this crazy Föhn conditions there in Mackanagua, Locarno, and catch up with a lot of people in front of me. And then I landed at this day in this crazy backwind event, which was not making a huge disadvantage to the other ones who made it maybe 10, 15 k's further. And then the next day was the most important day where I took off next to turnpoint Sant 'Anini, or was this called Monte Plontini? How was this called the turnpoint there? Yeah, I forget. I
think it was the one
up past... Yeah, I forgot it. Not Pitskorvash, whatever. The high one there. So I took off, and it was also not really easy. No, it was the whole day not really easy. And I took the decision to fly straight on the straight line. There were different options, where also the pilots in front of me, they took other options. And yeah, it worked out. There was really a lot of dark clouds around me, not really threatening dark clouds. It was more like this water cloud, where there was also rain showers. But I knew that there were not really dangerous rain showers. So it was a lot of instability in the air, but I could maintain to stay in the air and yeah, and fly a lot of distance to
what's actually this day even in Prunek to
Kronplatz. And yeah, all the other pilots, they made little mistakes and yeah, even I went from maybe 13th position to a 5th position there. No, 6th position. Did you top
land Kronplatz that night?
No, unfortunately not. I was there, I flew the whole day from start of to the end. And in the very evening, I knew that because I took my night pass, because the next day it was over at 11. So I knew if I'm able to glide down from Kronplatz this evening, I have a huge advantage, because then I can glide down and I can walk the whole night towards the goal. And then the next day at 11 o 'clock, of course, I expected not that so much will be flown by this time, till this time. And so I was landing two mountains before Kronplatz and then I pushed, I gave, I had to give a lot of power
to make it up this mountain, maybe a couple of hundred meters, glide towards Kronplatz and then make a full power push up to Kronplatz to be just in time I think I took off at 8.40 and then I knew already, I calculated while I was running, how much time I would need in trim speed to glide maximum time towards the right direction. And yeah, it just worked out perfectly. I was just maybe one minute before that line I was on the ground and I knew that the others who are just a bit behind me, they cannot glide down. So this evening, of course, everyone took their night pass, but I knew it will not help them so much because they can of course run up the Kronplatz but in the night you can just run down again and then run to this whole valley, which is like, takes a couple of hours so they have to wait up there on the Kronplatz till they can glide the next morning.
And I could walk the whole night, so this is what I did. But then in the end, I actually had to also do one really difficult decision because I was actually under Krente, this Antholz valley, and I was not sure with my whole team what to do because there was this huge no take off area in front of me, so I knew, okay, I could either run the whole night and it will be 60 km and I think 3000 m height or 2000 m height or something to the next take off, which was also directed to the south and not to the east and or I could take off, I could stay there actually waste my completely night pass and take off the next morning at Krente, which I know that it's a perfect cross country mountain and
this 40 km air line, direct line, which I run the whole night in 60 km running, of course can be flown by one and a half hours if you take off in the nice take off in a good east phase, so it was really hard, this decision, but then I thought, of course, I don't want to waste my night pass and even if I'm stuck there on the other take off in the south side, waiting for the sun to go around to the south and the other might fly over me, in worst case situation could have happened, then I still tried everything, that was my reason and then yeah, it was really nice experience actually with my wife Anastasia, she's also trail running and we walked or run the whole night and together, actually I was sleeping, no joke, like sleeping, walking and having her on my hand, like I closed my eyes and it felt really like sleeping while I was walking in this night
and yeah, it was a good experience for us and so we made it in the right time to this take off and then while I was waiting there, because it was obvious that I cannot take off as early as the others, suddenly Tobi Großrobaczer glided down from this Grumblotz mountain and found the entrance at 8 o 'clock in the morning or even I think before 8, it was so early, he found termites and climbed up to Krente where Paul Guschlbauer was waiting and I could not believe my eyes and I thought like oh no, now these two guys, they were battling each other, will battle each other and pushing really hard to catch me, so I need to get away from this take off now really fast I thought but luckily Tobi went landing somehow, he left Paul quite a bit
after that, short after that and yeah, I got airborne found some really nice termites and I was really happy and I thought like okay that's it, that's it, I think I will hold this fifth position but then it was just half an hour until the deadline it was really short before but then I stuck in a strong north fjord which grounded me and I was clear that I cannot make any progress towards the north where I need to go, so in the air so I landed and packed my stuff and I ran like everything I could because Paul was really really close, the wind was really strong and approaching me from another direction and I just ran this street up there with my team coming and helping me maybe I think 6-7 km
till this half an hour was over and Paul was coming really really close and it was really spectacular finish in the end so I just managed to get not overtaken again
That was a nail biting finish, I was watching you on live tracking and I had Paul in 3D the only time I have ever been able to watch that, usually we don't have time but my race was done and we were in the camper and ready to go and come back for the party and I was looking at it just going oh my god he's got him, he doesn't have him he's got him, he's got him, it was so close It
was a matter of one turn but then of course he also came in this area where the strong north fjord was and then everything, I think he told me also he was so happy that he could land when the race was over because these conditions were so crazy there because that's also what makes X-herps in my opinion so demanding is you have to go in one direction where you have to go and not which direction you choose so you just have to go towards the stupid north fjord and you cannot stay in the protected areas and yeah you're just pushing every meter how far you can get and that's the difference to other competitions where you set your task where you want to be
Manu I'm curious now with the little one on board has anything changed in the way you approach is it any different now, if you did the 2025 race would it be any different, would you take any different level of risk than what you did back in 2015 and if so can you chalk that up to the kid or to age excuse me
I can definitely say that I was always a person and a pilot who I really enjoy and enjoyed my life and I always knew and I was not taking crazy risks so it was even speed flying or other things I was always doing the things which I can really control and if I have a strange gut feeling I was often just hesitating and doing the chicken out decision and not even sometimes I could not really understand but I could not really explain why I was doing this, I was really at the beginning of my flying career I had a hard time because I had friends who were just like a little bit more
equipped with bigger balls and they were just like, they were just doing the things and they worked out for them and I could not even explain why it should be dangerous for example trying to stall it took me like 6-7 years till I finally I was always doing stalls like 1-2 stalls a year, 1-2 stall sessions a year but then it worked always out perfectly fine it was a totally nice experience but always when I tried it again in front of doing it I was so scared that I didn't do it and I could not even explain why I should be scared but I just was scared and then I ended up not doing it because I was doing hard to force myself into a situation which I don't like but then this on the other hand, this attitude or this feeling maybe protected me from situations of being too
too dangerous so I don't know but for sure I can see my thoughts already sometimes even on normal tandem flights also which I did in the past when Linus was already there when I thought about him which I of course didn't do it before he was there so I imagine that I will be a bit more passive than before for sure
I've always kind of liked Tom D 'Orlodeau's approach he seems to really just take it as the adventure and he's very pragmatic about risk, you know he's just totally unwilling to it's a weird one isn't it though because I find that the headspace, and I've talked about this a lot on the show but the headspace that you get in during that race is not something I could ever emulate in training it just doesn't come you know the you start taking risks that normally you would be really uncomfortable with but you're not uncomfortable with it in the race at all I've never felt like I've done I've gotten into situations like the one we were talking about in Vars in 2015 where it was really extreme but it wasn't that I was pushing it really hard
I just ended up in a really gnarly it was a perfectly it was a wonderful recreational flying day I was just in the wrong place that could have totally happened just flying but there's but at the same time when I'm training for the X-Alps and purposefully going out on days that are really marginal because I know I have to train for the race and I'm really scared and in the race I can honestly say I don't remember ever feeling really scared I've always felt like when it gets to that point you're in this headspace of yeah this is awesome bring it it's a funny thing isn't it I've talked to many others who have done the race and they all kind of say the same thing that they don't you know Chrigel has kids and he feels like he's really got it he's trained for it he feels like he's not taking too much risk I
mean he's proving it for so many years without major injuries so that's the proof that he's doing it right I would say and yeah I would totally agree in this situation where I really got scared I was not pushing and taking this decision really conscious that I said like I will fly now in thunderstorm all the time when I was taking bigger risk it ended up being completely controlled but then suddenly it was also this 2017 I had actually then I had to think about you because I was also 14 meters there after this flight where I saw actually I do some things also in flying on my phone communicating in WhatsApp and I also looked up at home I saw that there's a huge cold front coming on the north side and also this cloud which I saw made me a little bit like really far away but also over me there were these scattered covered clouds and I spoke with my supporting team hey how is this cold front it looks really strange and they said like oh no no it's really far away and only on the north side and then a couple of minutes later I suddenly got washed I mean it was a local thing maybe there was in the valley it was just next to the valley on one ridge and in the valley was maybe 40 km per hour wind so not super crazy or 35 to 40 I was just barely flying or standing actually
but on the side on this ridge I suddenly got sinked like sink down with 14 meters I never experienced something like that before and I had to think ah that is what was the experience what Gavin told me 80 meters that's how it feels and then in the middle of the valley I had 3-4 meters climb which also felt not nice because I thought like hopefully there will be not coming more wind and I anyway didn't do any progress forward so I was just standing there climbing a bit and standing in the wind so I thought then I actually ended up spiraling down and walking and yeah so this was all things which happened suddenly and you didn't expect them to come
yeah yeah it was interesting catching up with Cody at the Swiss turn point the first one I forget the name of that beautiful place coming out of the Wharf Pass last year in 2021 Fiche? No not Fiche before
was it Santis?
Santis yeah he was sitting there at the launch and I walked up and he just had this look he had that terrible experience leaving Lermus that a lot of people did you know big thunderstorms and hail and he just had this look of he was kind of done mentally he was done he just that was too much you know I've never reached that in the X-Ops it's always been you know I've always felt like it was reasonable risk but when you look back you think oh I don't know
yeah the 2015 for example there was one day before that was what I was mentioning that I could judge quite the wind good because two day before it was also I was there was also very stable day and I was scratching like I said it's kind of a toilet flush I felt like I was flying really low in the valleys from valley wind um a soaring hill to another and I just could not manage to get higher but I just like was yeah caught in this valley wind and I was doing progress but it was all the time in strong winds and it wasn't really not landable areas and one time I can remember where I was really gliding towards this um
soaring ridge which is was good in the valley wind I was so low reaching it and knew if I don't climb there's no landing and the wind is so strong that I mean it was I was really reaching it by maybe 30 meters or so like I was 30 meters over the valley floor and I knew I knew it will work because it was so strong wind but I knew if I get a lot of sink before I reach it and I don't reach the mountain or the ridge then I have to land in strong winds standing and there were obstacles all around me so this situations for sure were way more nerve-wracking and scary than the next day where I saw hey okay behind me is a huge field I'm flying 30 kilometers per hour backwards but I mean I'm not getting blown I was quite low already at this point so I just thought okay I just have to take care that I'm getting blown over this field I see down in the grass that the wind down there is for sure not so crazy that I get hurt when I land even if I'm flying that backwards so I thought okay spiral down in front of the field and then you just go on the brakes and fly backwards into the field so
it felt quite controlled actually even if it sounds crazy
yeah so many good stories Manu thanks for sharing for the fifth or sixth time now I think this one worked buddy and but I appreciate it it's great to great to see your smiling face it's great to relive all these special moments and excited for you and your new family and excited to maybe see you in 25 thanks buddy that was fun yeah
thank you as well and it was always a pleasure so we can do it also several more times with you it's always nice
it's always good actually when we didn't do the recording was not working I thought it was like you can never tell it again like so authentic or so how you feel when you do it tell it the first time but it's never getting old it
never gets old it's a fun race thanks bud
yeah thank you too and we wish all the other pilots luck hey I am really yeah curious how it feels the first time to just watch it and live tracking and have a lot of friends who I'm cheering and yeah oh
I know is it going to be torture or is it going to be fun I don't know I'm not sure about that but yeah me neither I've thought a lot about it it's going to be exciting it always is thanks man if you find the cloud based mayhem valuable you can support it in a lot of different ways you can give us a rating on itunes or stitcher or however you get your podcast that goes a long ways and helps spread the word you can blog about it on your own website or share it on social media you can talk about it on the way out to launch with your pilot friends I know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way and of course you can support us financially this show does take a lot of time a lot of editing a lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind the scenes cost so if you can support us financially all we've ever asked for is a buck a show and you can do that through a one time donation through paypal or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out we put a new show out every two weeks so
for example if you did a buck a show and every two weeks it would be about $25 a year so way cheaper than a magazine subscription and it makes all of this possible I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors we get asked about that pretty frequently but for a whole bunch of different reasons which I've said many times on the show I don't want to do that I don't like having that stuff at the front of the show and I also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people and these are just our opinions but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars I think that's a pretty toxic business model so I hope you dig that um you can support us if you go to cloudbasedmayhem.com you can find the places to support you can do it through patreon.com forward slash cloudbasedmayhem if you want a recurring subscription you can also do that directly through the website we've tried to make it really easy and that will give you access to all the bonus material little video casts that we do and extra little uh nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show but we feel like you should hear
we don't put any of that behind a paywall if you can't afford to support us then just let me know and I'll set you up with an account of course that'll be lifetime and hopefully you'll be in a position someday to be able to support us but you'll find all that on the website uh all of you who have supported us or even joined our newsletter or bought cloudbasedmayhem merchandise t-shirts or hats or anything you should be all set up you should have an account you should be able to access all that bonus material now thank you so much for listening I really appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next show thank you
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