Thank you for watching.
I'm going to be doing a couple of archives this week, both because I don't really feel like I can do an interview very well and I don't have something lined up for you. So I'm going to let Miles pick this out. And before we get to the show, I've got a couple of things that I think my voice can get through that I've been wanting to talk about. One is cloud flying. Just a couple of little things here that I think our community could know more about and hopefully do better with going forward. I got an email. I got an email from a pilot who's a helicopter pilot down in New Zealand, very well trained, lots of hours in a heli and getting into paragliding and has been surprised by the almost encouragement of, you know, launching into cloud and that kind of thing. He found that pretty wild because of all the training they go through in helicopters to deal with cloud and helicopters.
Obviously, you wouldn't. Well, anyway, it's very easy to get disoriented in a cloud. This is a major thing that comes up at every World Cup I've ever been in is cloud flying. And depending on what part of the world you're in, clouds, you know, down in New Zealand when they're just wispy and, you know, really not strong, not cumulonimbus clouds, maybe that's safer. But you all hear stories from, you know, I get a lot of ex-Alps pilots on the show and you heard Aaron's wild story of launching into cloud and landing in cloud and using his instruments to find a field. And I think that's a really good example of that. And I think that's a really good example of that. And I think that's a really good example of that. Obviously, that is next level type stuff and very, very risky, even for Aaron and not encouraged.
These are just stories for fun. But let's not emulate ex-Alps pilots. Let's just be smart as pilots. So just want to put it out there to the community that cloud flying is incredibly disorienting. I went back recently and watched my track log from the Alaska trip, some of those flights. And it kind
of went off.
It was pretty humorous watching my flight. I went into the cloud there for this is in the movie. It's kind of the opening scene. I flew in a cloud for more than 20 minutes and I looked like a drunken sailor on my track log. I mean, I had my compass, I had my instruments, and I was clearly just all over the place. And my biggest thing was just staying clear of terrain. But when you look at the track log, it's just I look like a drunken sailor in the sky. So it is incredibly disorienting. Cloud suck is really scary. When you're in the white room, you have no idea if your wing is over your head or below your feet. And even if you have a ton of training like this gentleman does down in New Zealand, it can really be tough. And in helicopters, they have instruments to help out with all that.
And we don't. So anyway, just want to put it out to the community. Let's not certainly not encourage cloud flying. And, you know, surfing up the side of a cloud can be awfully fun, especially in places that don't have big mean clouds. Like I said, I'm not a cloud fan. I like Columbia. But just, yeah, just be careful because they can be and they are causing a lot of mid-airs, especially in comps. And I saw several in the Superfinal. And these are some of the best pilots in the world. So they do cause problems. They can be really dangerous. And let's give them some respect. The other is I got an email from my friend, JK, who did the great show on threat and error management. And this is a great show. This is a chapter in the book, longtime Air Force and a commercial airline pilot.
And they have, you know, all these steps. And one of their big things that they go through is checklists. And this is, you know, again, in the book and in the show. I won't go into it in depth here. But he was standing in line just two spots back and watched the incident that ended up in a pretty bad injury in Chelan two seasons ago.
And, you know, the. The common when the people who saw that really felt like that was, you know, there there were things that could be done as there always are. And that that could have stopped that incident from happening. And he compared it to with the airlines. You know, they they know that it's it's when you're close to the ground is when you need to be way more heads up. And you have all these steps that they train to go through if they have an engine failure or some kind of catastrophic failure. When they're close to the ground and one is on takeoff. And these are kind of all caps reminders of what you need to do if. And one of the things that's pretty common is is launching and getting a cravat and or just getting a cravat.
And they can be dealt with really in the same way. But obviously, when you're launching, when you're close to the ground, it's a lot more it can be a lot more extreme. So just want to run through because the the main thing is his big take. Away was what would I have done in that same situation? So he went back through and took almost a month to kind of review it over and over and over again in his head. You know, what would I have done if I had gotten a similar situation? The cravat happened before this pilot left the ground and he was being yelled at by the meat director to abort, abort, abort. So that was the first mistake. He had kind of a soft wing and had a pretty small cravat manageable. And I'm sure the pilot just thought, well, I can. Yeah. Handle this in the air once he got in the air rather than getting a good vector on his flight path, which would have been handled by leaning.
And this is always the first thing you should do with a cravat is lean and get, you know, get a straight vector, fly away from the terrain. So rather than trying to deal with the cravat or even getting your harness right away, just lean away from the problem side and and fly straight. And even really. I
don't know how high
aspect wings can handle this unless it's a really big cravat. And so you can lean away. The danger is leaning away and adding a lot of opposite brake. And that can obviously put you in a stall, depending on how bad the cravat is on the non flying side. So but the first thing you want to do is just, you know, we need terrain clearance. And then I'm going to take you through his kind of he calls it his clue bag, because this is this is all. So this is great. So number one, maintain aircraft control. Fly away from the terrain without adding any additional unnecessary drag. This gets us altitude, which buys us time before fixing the cravat. Number two, the biggest threat from a cravat is added drag, which can A, induce a turn toward the terrain, or B, induce a spiral, and C, reduce stall margins.
Three, a cravat near the ground is super critical. A cravat at altitude is so much more manageable. Four, max weight shift prior to using opposite brake is super important. If you're turning toward the cravat and you don't have all your weight into the open side of the wing, you're screwing up. Drag is the big threat with a cravat. Adding to that with unnecessary brake input exacerbates the situation. This one I'm not sure on. I need to check on this, but it makes sense to me. To increase stall margins, consider 50 % or more bar. We do that with big ears. Why not a cravat? Number six, a cravat can be flat. If you're flagging or cupped, a small cupped cravat can be more dragged than a larger flagged cravat. Seven, if you're handed a cupped cravat, consider pulling a big ear on that side. It could end up being more material folded, but could take you from cupped to flagged.
We all know that a simple asymmetric big ear is easily manageable with weight shift. You need to assess this and use pilot discretion. It may be a good move, but could also make it worse. Eight, after establishing a good vector away from the terrain, work on removing the cravat. There are multiple options here, depending on the severity of the cravat and altitude. In all cases, aircraft control is paramount while clearing the cravat. Turns into terrain and stalls while clearing are unsatisfactory. At times, it may be necessary to fly with one hand on both toggles, etc. Okay, this is the good stuff. Number nine, clearing a cravat. A, use the brake on that side with short, sharp brake applications. Don't stall. B, pull the stabilo line. Identifying it may be difficult if the lines are slack. Use the open side to mark the color coding.
C, or just have this memorized and have done it enough and done enough SIV that you know which line is your stabilo. C, apply a big ear to the bad side and then clear that with the stabilo line. More slack lines around the cravat make the stabilo more effective in clearing it. A couple of arm lengths could be required. D, if trained and proficient and with enough altitude, spin it out. Spin entry is all that's required. D, pull brake deep on the cravat. D, pull brake deep on the bad side until the brake line begins to go soft. Weight shift away from the spin and brake opposite to stop rotation. E, stall it out, which requires even more altitude than a spin entry. Again, must be SIV trained to be proficient. F, land with it as it is. And in this case, this pilot definitely could have done that.
This cravat was quite small. Depending on how controllable the wing is, this could be a good option, especially if maneuvering simply fails to get enough altitude to try the above. G, throw your reserve. Throughout your flight on a crippled wing and at all times during the clearing process, always be ready to throw your reserve. If aircraft control is compromised, you can't get it back in time to avoid uncontrolled flight into terrain. Throw. So that's quite a few steps, but the basics are the basics. Get away from the hill. Get yourself some margin. Be thinking about your reserve because they work even low. And deal with the cravat. And that comes back to SIV training. My personal favorite is the spin, but that's the more advanced.
And obviously that's when you have a bigger cravat. But done properly, you lose very little altitude. But of course you need altitude and you don't want to be messing around with that when there's the possibility of spinning back into the hill. So understand cravats. They're nothing to be scared of as long as you have the margin. But these things unfortunately can happen close to the ground. And how you react could be, the difference between a bad day at the office and in a terrific flight. So good luck and enjoy this show. Cheers.
My guest today is Manu Bonti, a legend in the sport. And he's been on the show before. This is the second one we've done with him, but I didn't know this. He was the weather router and one of the supporters for Pierre Remy in the X-Pierre. And he sent me a text right after the race. And I was, of course, glued to it. But for the week, amazing race. And Pierre was actually out in front going into the end. And then Chrigel and Maxime got him. They made a couple of really nice moves. And of course, Chrigel, very crazy ending. And Chrigel was able to beat Maxime against all the odds yet again. So I thought it'd be really fun to talk to a supporter. Usually we talk to the athletes, but talk to a supporter and get their take on the philosophy and the risk and how it all comes together.
This was Pierre's first hike and fly race. He's, of course, a very famous comp pilot and really big name in the sport. But this was his first foray into hike and fly. And he got third against some pretty tough competition. So he had a great race. And obviously, they had a great team. And so this is a story from kind of behind the scenes. I think you're going to really enjoy it. Cheers.
Manu, good to see you and have you on the show again. It's wonderful to see your smiling face. It sounds like you guys had quite an adventure in the X-Pierce. So we're going to be talking a lot about the race. But I thought where we should start would be to talk about Pierre a little bit. For those who don't follow comps very much, who are listening to the show, may not be familiar with Pierre Remy, one of the more famous pilots. in the world. But tell us about Pierre and then we'll get into it. I want to talk to you about what it was like supporting. That's something I'm going to do for the first time here in a month over at the Dolomiti. But yeah, tell me about Pierre and then we'll get into your adventure.
Hey, Gavin. Cool to meet you again on Club Base Mayhem. So Pierre is, for people that do not know him, he was a really classic comp champion. He won the... FAI Awards in 2017 and PWC Superfinal in 2018. And starting from that moment, he started to pay attention to those type of competition like X-Alps-Pierce. And he started to train. So that was really 2018. He really started to physically train for this type of comp. And he had... You know, the ambition to participate to the X-Pierce 2020,
which was cancelled due to COVID issues, you know. And here we are. He arrived in 2022 on the X-Pierce. He was physically really ready, but the team was, I would say, kind of improvised. You know, he called me a few weeks before the comp asking me if I wanted to participate. And I said, OK, I'm going to participate. And then for the two other guys, you know, it was pretty much the same. So we went there just to see, you know, a little bit. But yeah, finally, we had a good adventure, good sensation. And it was pretty fun.
Yeah. And I was watching the race. I got up at four o 'clock in the morning all week to watch it. It was going on during our U.S. Nationals. So I was up early anyway. But he made some nice moves, you know, really, you know, the big day, day three, where he was going to the Olympics. And all the leaders got way out in front and had some really nice flying. But the weather at the start was tough. And he was fast on the ground as well. Those first couple of days looked pretty miserable.
Yes. The two first days were pretty miserable. And I believe Maxime did the best job, you know, from the team. Even if at the end of the second day, Chrigel managed to make a move.
Yeah. But the choice of Maxime, they were a little bit better. And the third day was the very first day we could fly. And looking at the weather forecast, at that moment, we believed maybe it would be the only flying day of the comp, you know. But finally, it happened that we had some other flying days. Yeah. But everybody was like, that day, we must be at the right place, you know, at the right moment. And we had a third day, you know, a group of leaders, where we had mainly Maxime and Chrigel. And also, they were together with Noah, maybe, and Simon, for sure.
And so basically, we had those leaders, you know, in the front. And Pierre was a little bit behind. And we made a weather forecast and strategy. And for us, it was clear that, in the high altitude, the air was quite stable until late. And it would be unstable in the lower layer earlier. So this is the reason why we did not follow them, because we arrived a little bit later in Kandanshu. And my plan was to go on the east face, stay relatively low, to benefit, you know, the instability we had. And finally, Pierre. I think it took off two hours before the other guys.
Well, they made the first glide, then they climbed again, and then they had to wait for conditions to take off again. And at that moment, you know, Pierre was flying for a while. We had probably, I would say, three, four hours. We were three, four hours behind at that moment. And during the flight, at one moment, we passed first. And then they had a good line. And well, in the Peña Montaneza, we had only six kilometers, you know, we were just six kilometers behind. But that was definitely a good move we did. And in my opinion, you know, in this type of competition, they had no other choice because they wouldn't wait, you know, three hours to take off in the lower layers. So basically, they went, they had to go ahead.
And this is sometimes you're trapped like this. And we had the same situation, but reversed. We had to wait. You know, later on, and then they caught with us again, you know, that was on day five. But in some moments, you know, you just need to do something because the athletes, they say, hey, I'm not going to wait. And so, of course, you know, you choose, you know, one option. But you know that later on, you know, in another place would be better. And this is that was perfect for us because we were late and we arrived exactly at the right moment to take off on the east face low. And they just took off and they climbed. They arrived super high, but it was not in place and they had to wait. And so basically, I would say we we passed them.
And then, you know, they got a little bit lucky on that because normally when they arrive, when you arrive from the route they took, there is a place where pass it is rather complicated. And I really believed we would pass in front. But it worked very well for them. And so everybody was. Kind of surprised around Broto how they could pass, you know, the national park. But yeah, that's that's the game. But finally, the move was quite good for us here. For sure. The decision and the way Pierre put it, you know, in into reality was was quite good. But that was kind of tricky, you know, because we know that to pass from the east face, you know, to the Coyote, rather, that would be kind of tricky.
And he was actually there were two together, you know, to cross. And finally, one landed and Pierre managed to escape. So it was not, let's say, crystal clear. It would be good. But he managed to do it. And then he was clearly in the front. So that was that was the first move. That was not too bad. And then, well, then as the guys, they had a good line. He was chasing them till the end and they were putting like a crazy rhythm. And and that was. It's virtually impossible to catch up with them. I know he kept the distance, but he couldn't catch up with them. That was very intense flying. Everybody was so motivated. And yeah,
I have something to say also about what happened in that flight. Is that what what Krueger, Simon and and Maxime did, you know, from Mon Lude to go to the first point of the X, you know, like. Our bus is just amazing. That's route. We hardly I don't think I mean, I know a little bit what happened in the Pyrenees, but maybe I make a mistake, but I don't think anybody ever reach from Mon Lude, our bus using that route. They just went, you know, in the mountains on the lee side of Little Hills. They were barely protected. And then they managed to catch them all, you know, to climb in the thermal.
And then push into the wind to pass in front of the mountain. They did that for time to reach our bus. And for me, what they did was just from another what that probably one part of the X-Pyr. I was so impressed with what Maxime Krueger and Simon achieved, you know, in terms of choice of of of route, which, you know, we know it's impossible. They didn't know it's impossible. So they did it, you know, basically. So but, you know, it opened eyes, you know, and we were we were just like, what? When I saw them, you know, from more to go in direction of that south face, I just said, OK, they are dead.
You know, it's never going to work, you know, and then, you know, it worked for time. So basically, we learn, you know, we learn from those scum for sure. I
was going to ask, you know, because you live in the Pyrenees and in Pierre lives in the Pyrenees, how I've always thought that with the ex-Alps, you know, the pilots who live in Europe, you know, have a have a pretty clear advantage because they just they know it's a complicated place and they know the different systems and the valley winds and everything. And it's really important to have knowledge of a place. But when I look at the Pyrenees, it's it's even in many ways much more complicated. You know, the roads never go in the direction of the route. And so the walking is it looks really hard. But how important is it for the athletes to have knowledge of what the flying is like there and the fern and all that?
What do you what do you think about that? Because it's it is interesting that you said, you know, Simon and and Chrigel, they're doing these things that the locals would go, nah, you don't do that.
Yeah. On one hand, it's good to know the place. On the other hand, when you know it, you're limited. So that's basically when you open when you get in a place with fresh eyes and you come with your experience from other places.
Basically, you know, like the famous day Chrigel took off from that was on day four. He took off from Pic du Midi. In these conditions, we never fly. Nobody flies. You know, in France, like we are we don't fly. Just I mean, Pierre doesn't fly in these conditions regularly. And what did Chrigel? I looked at the track and that's an amazing understanding of what could be way flying. OK, but when you learn paragliding in France, the first thing you learn, you know, in the French Pyrenees, you don't fly when it's south wind. And then little by little, you learn that. But when the south wind is not too strong, then you can still do things.
And maybe the best days that we are with light south wind. But then, you know, when the wind is that strong, everybody stays home and take care of the tomatoes in his garden, you know, and basically he just amazed us, you know, there. But that was just, you know, like a certain type of flying in very specific conditions. It's amazing. It's Chrigel. But what they did? You know. You know, between Mont Lude and Arbas for me is something we could do, but we never do because we don't believe it might work in competition. They go that route with the strong feeling that it's the best thing to do.
And actually it works. So that's as I said, you know, on one hand, you know, you know, some stuff for regular conditions, but when the conditions are not regular, maybe. Yeah. The guys are able to invent something super special, but even in regular condition, because that day was regular conditions, they're able to invent new routes that finally, you know, from the dogma we have, everybody has, you know, more or less dogma. You are not really ready in your mind to break the dogma and invent this type of solution to get from one place to another one. Pretty much they stayed on the line, which shows, you know, strategy. Well, when you, in terms of out of line in the Pyrenees, that was kind of super weird and they stayed on the line, shortest line, you know, from one point to another one.
And finally they, they managed to achieve, you know, the, the task to reach the goal. I mean, the place they wanted to reach and following this line was for me at least, you know, really amazing. But Pierre, he did another route, more classic. And finally got to the place. Um. Not so long. I wouldn't say what they did was crazily efficient because finally at the end, Pierre got to, um, Arbas just a little bit after them and at the Peña Montanese, I had at least, you know, six kilometers, you know, behind. So I wouldn't say what they did was, uh, just, uh, mega efficient. And then they put everybody, you know, back in the wind, but however it worked and that's already is quite amazing.
This is basically, um, my opinion.
I don't remember menu if it was day five or six, but I was watching and pretty much that was the day that was supposed to be 70 kilometers an hour wind at the top of the peaks. Really, really, really strong Southwest. And when I, I just got on and watched a few times and, and everyone was on the ground, uh, Maxime and, and Chrigel were quite close to one. Another, they had kind of taken a different route the night before, but they were pretty close to one another hiking up in the Alpine. And then the next time I refreshed, Pierre was in the air and, and got way out in front of those guys. And he just, and I was watching his speeds and they were fast, but they weren't too crazy. You know, I was seeing a lot of, you know, 55 K an hour, 60 K an hour.
So it seemed like it wasn't too rowdy, but was that a scary flight? Was that because the forecast that day? Yeah, it was. It looked pretty unflyable. It looked really, really strong. And I would have thought it would have been pretty scary. The nice thing is he had a little bit of tailwind and so, but he made a move there that, uh, that was, was incredible. And it looked to me like he was in a position that he could win the race. You know, that at the end, it was the very, the end of the day, those guys didn't fly the, at the end of the day. And, and Pierre got, got quite a ways out ahead.
Yeah. That's that day. It was, uh, pretty incredible. The strong wind day was the day before. In fact, that the day where Krigel took off from, uh, from, uh, from Pic du Midi. Well, Pierre also took off and Maxime took off, but, um, Krigel was the first to take off and it was kind of hairy. The, the day after, this is the day we did that special move. And I'm so surprised for me. It's just, you know, um, uh, something I don't understand. How, how did you do that? So, um, uh, Krigel did not see it for me. It's maybe, uh, um, you know, Krigel doesn't make many mistakes, but I think that they did a mistake for sure.
And, um, and, uh, for me, it was very sure it wouldn't be flyable around 3000 meter because the forecast, as you say, was 60, 70 kilometer per hour. And the situation for co forecasting was not really comfortable because we had, you know, we had two, uh, fronts, you know, passing, you know, the first days it was very unstable. All the models, they were saying something different and we were, uh, spending our time to find the good model for, you know, the day X day, you know, have the good model. And I had to use three different models during the race. I didn't use the same model, you know, for the wind and the same model for the instability, because you know, one model was better for instability.
Another one, and it changed, you know, during the race. So that was really a hard work to be on the good model to make the forecast that day. I was pretty sure, um, taking the route, uh, trigger took, he wouldn't fly. And I was pretty sure going to Castellon de Sos, we would fly. And I had absolutely no doubt about it because the day before the wind was stronger and one guy of the X-Pyr, he passed by, which was really late, you know, he passed by Castellon and he flew. And I had also report, you know, from the schools in Castellon that the conditions were quite strong, but flyable. I would, I would say not flyable for students of the school, but flyable for athletes, you know, and this is basically one guy, I think, I don't remember his name, maybe a Spanish guy or, but he took off, you know, in Castellon and he flew a bit, you know, in direction of so guard, you know, to come back to France at the moment, you know, um, the leading, the lead of the comp was going the other way.
You know, I. He was trying to go to, I would say, um, our bus and the guys that were coming, you know, from back, you know, from a peak committee. So basically I was pretty sure it would be flyable, but there is a little, very special phenomenon that happens in Castellon is that when you have Southwest wind in Castellon is Southeast, not for long, you know, as soon as you fly a little bit, then you are again in the Southwest flow. But in the lower layer. Yeah. Yeah. So
it was
super clear in the air grams that below 2000 meter, the wind was not too strong. And we have also, I would say a wind wind central, you know, a wind weather station at 2,400 meter, you know, on top of Castellon. And I had the, you know, the history of that station. I was looking at the history and I know this, um, weather station is a Venturi. So when we have South wind, it always, you know, overrate. You know, the wind and I knew it, it, it, it was flyable for Pierre, you know, the day before. And so that day, even, even more flyable because the wind was, uh, was, uh, forecasted weaker. Uh, but at 3000 meter, it was super strong for sure. And when I saw Chrigel going in direction of Gourblanc, then I said, wow, that's our chance, you know, and at that moment you're, it's always so complicated to take the decision because you have Chrigel going.
You're going one way, you have Maxim following another route, but finally the same strategy. And you say to the guys, okay, we'll do something totally different. And then the guys are like, Hey, are you sure? But yeah, we did it. It worked. And at the end of the day, we had 33 kilometers. We were, um, I would say in the morning, we were probably five hours or six, you know, behind Chrigel. And at the end of the day, we were 33 kilometer in front of him. And, and. Yeah. He walked crazy. I measured what he walked that was like from hell, you know. I think he made more than 4,000 meters, you know, positive and maybe 4,500 meters, you know, going down.
And we walked just 2,000 meters. So, and the number of kilometers, not even mentioning the number of kilometers. And at the end of the day, when Maxime was more or less catching up with him, I watched and he was still climbing at 1,000 meters per hour, you know. After that long walk, I was just like, what a machine, you know. And Pierre was so happy to do all that, you know, flying. And he validated, you know, the stuff. And we were so happy to have 33 kilometers, to be 33 kilometers in the front. But I was pretty sure he was... It wouldn't last much because they were sleeping high. The southwest wind was quite strong.
I really believe they could take off early and fly in our direction kind of far away. But I never imagined they would get to Torre del Lori that high, you know. I really believe maybe they land, you know, at the foot of Torre del Lori. And maybe they have to walk up 1,700 meters, you know, to get to the takeoff. But actually, that was crazy because Chrigel and Maxime, they managed, you know, to soar the mountain. Then there is a big valley to pass. They arrived on the mountain. They managed to climb a little bit. And then if you look with a glide ratio of 12, you know, from that mountain, you arrive at the foot and they arrived almost at the top, you know.
And when they arrived at the place Pierre was, finally they couldn't climb. They had to.
They had to
land and walk. So it was impossible for Pierre to take off early. If he would have taken off early, he would have bombed out and then you lose everything, you know. So basically, I was kind of happy that he landed at the bottom of that mountain the day before. So he had to walk up the mountain because if he landed at the top, he would have said, OK, I go, I go. I couldn't have get him here. So that was good to have him, you know, walk a while. Not to arrive too early. The top. And when he arrived there, he looked at the condition. He said to me, yeah, you know, it's not too good for the moment. And we knew the guys already took off. They were arriving. I said, OK, let's wait and let's fly with them. Anyways, if we if we go alone, we just take the risk to bomb out.
And anyways, they will catch up with us, you know, later. And it was also the problem of the CTR, the airspace of La Céau d 'Urgell, you know, which makes you. Need to go in the back. So if you don't have a minimum of instability and you cannot go. My forecast was the instability was would be good around 10, 30, 11. And in fact, they managed to escape at 10. But it was like 30 minutes before. But they managed, you know, to climb just a little bit, playing the game, the tree together. They managed to do it. One one pilot alone, in my opinion, even at 10 would have. Been super complicated to reach, you know, the mountain range in the back and keep on going.
Pass by, you know, on door. And finally, they nailed the turn point super early. It was I don't remember, 1230 or something like this. And that was really amazing. You know how they managed to fly so fast between Torre del Ori and the Cerdagne.
Manu, what was the what were the different roles on your team? It sounds like you were in charge of the weather, but you said there's three supporters. Is that right? And how how did you because it sounds like the team came together kind of late and was improvised. You know, I know how much goes in. You know, there's a lot to do when you're supporting an athlete. How did you divvy it up? Who was doing what? And and what would you maybe change if you had the opportunity to do it again?
And what I would well, the team was four people in total. We, Pierre and three people, two guys, they were on the field with him. OK, the two guys on the field, they were quite strong, you know, in running and and walking in the mountains on the flat. Also, one was most specialist of flat and the other one is really comfortable, you know, in the mountains, climbing mountains, you know, is quite strong. And so basically they would switch. You know, all the time. But Pierre barely got alone, you know, to walk. They were, you know, all the time, you know, supporting him on the field.
And that was good for the mentor of Pierre to have one guy, you know, running with him almost all the time. And my job initially was to provide a weather forecast in the morning and another one at night. But finally, I was in front of my computer from 5 a.m. to 5 p.m. to midnight because the situation was so complicated, so unstable that it was really important sometimes to update information during the day. And finally, it happened that I was giving also that was also in the deal at the beginning. I had to give my opinion on the strategy. So at the beginning, I was just, you know, giving an overlook.
And at the end, I was a little bit more. I mean, present, you know, on the strategy.
But what we would change, I think, in terms of team, we would just change nothing because that was an excellent team. Pierre was super ready physically. The two guys on the field, they did an incredible job. That's Nicolas and Mathieu. And finally, I didn't do too bad. And the strategy and the weather forecasting. So we did quite a good job together. Maybe we could just, you know, like there was some communication problem, you know, localization problem we should work on. And also, I just realized I'm talking with some friends of mine like Antoine Girard that they have developed a full set of tools.
You know, to figure out what is the best way to take if it's flyable, just glide down. Or if it's not flyable, you need to walk all the way, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so this would have eased clearly my working load. And I really believe, you know, like we were absolutely not ready, you know, on this type of matter. And we have a huge progression. Yeah. So, you know, I think that's the only way to get to the bottom of this. So, you know, I think that's the only way to get to the bottom of this. But, you know, basically at the end, you just realize that everything finally comes sometimes just on luck, good luck, bad luck, you know.
Maybe, I don't think when we went to Castejon, we had luck. I don't believe this. But probably when on day three, we decided to choose the east face. And the fact that Pierre managed to climb again, you know, on the Coyerada, this was probably luck, you know. When Chrigel and Pierre together, they crossed the Cerdagne and they make a low save, 80 meters for Pierre. So this is sometimes, you know, luck and, you know, talent, of course, you know. But sometimes you're grounded and decision, you're a little bit too much on the right, on the left, and you're grounded. And so basically, this is it.
The fact that, you know, at the end, you know, this epic conclusion we had, you know, with, you know, the three guys, you know, and what happened on the Canigou and everything. So sometimes, you know, you put a lot of things, you know, together and it relies more on being at the right place at the right moment. And sometimes it's just a question of luck, you know. Sometimes you're late and you arrive somewhere and poof, it works. And so. You know, that's. But in terms of improvement, we have a large room of improvement on the tools. I believe the team itself was naturally ready and it works super well, you know, in the field. And they had a super good time together. They enjoyed and me behind my computer.
I had also, you know, a kind of fun. So we enjoyed, you know, the adventure. There is also the point you mentioned before. Yeah. You asked me how important is it? You know, you know, the mountain range. In fact, Pierre doesn't know very well the whole mountain range. When he flies, he always flies from our valley. Of course, you know, a few weeks before the expir, he flew 200 kilometers, you know, I say a triangle, you know, 200 kilometers in the north face of the Pyrenees, which was never done before. But he didn't do it with the. He did it with the X1, you know, and with his heavy harness, with his comb gear, you know.
So basically, the place he knows very well is something like from our place, 50 kilometers to the west. And let's say 100 kilometers to 80 kilometers to the 50 to the west. And I would say something like 100 to the east. But he hardly. He flies in Spain. Maybe had a comp, you know, sometimes in Castellon. But that's that was not really a place he knows. But something he maybe a room of improvement. I don't know. I should discuss this with him. He's flying more maybe with the specific gear he use. I don't know. Maybe this could help also. But he had very little flying time, airtime with this specific gear he use, you know, for this comp.
He flew the he flew the climber. I understand. And then what what harness did he fly?
It was a specific harness from Cortel, a pro harness for this type of comp.
Yeah, that's what I used in the last race as well. That clean your pro. And then will do you think he'll does he have his eyes on the X-Alps? Will that be something he'll do in the future?
We have a meeting Monday to make kind of a debrief of the adventure and discuss a little bit of this topic and see, you know, what else? I know he loves the Pyrenees. Discussing at the end of the race with the other guys. Many of them, they said the X-Alps is less demanding, you know, like what we did in this X-Pyr, you know. And so I don't know. We'll see. I think everything is open. But that was that was tough. You know, the two first days, they were super tough. And it impacted. It a lot. You know, the rest of the race, starting with two days where you barely fly.
I mean, the second day, I mean, they just made maybe one glide. And that's that's kind of tough. And it's very specific training you must do on the flat and on the you know, on the road, which I'm not sure Pierre actually did, you know. And so basically that was kind of tough. But many guys. They said, OK, you know, X-Alps, you have you have to start, you know, one hour earlier. You have to end, you know, one hour later. But finally, you always manage to fly somehow. And and it's less hard, you know, like this one. I don't know. But we'll discuss that for sure. Monday.
Did
you have, you know, on our first show, you and I talked a lot about all the guiding you do and teaching. And you've been. At this game an awfully long time. Did you find it personally stressful to see what these guys are are flying in and what they're, you know, in the weather conditions they're flying in? And did you find it? I don't know. Is it is it nerve wracking to see it because it's a totally different kind of, you know, like you said, they're flying days that normally you go play pool. You're not. You wouldn't be in the air and they're doing it over and over and over again. I mean, it's it's it's quite intense. That
was extremely stressful for several reasons. The first reason is that you give advices and you don't pay yourself the mistakes. And you have in front of you a guy that has been training for three or four years and he's ready for that. And if you make a mistake, he's not too good. So this was one first. But the second reason is stressful is that you need to make a mix between decision you would take for the best flying and decision you take to keep a strategic position in in the race. When you have, I would say, Maxime, you are playing the game, you know, with Krigel and Maxime.
You don't want to make a move where you will see them, you know, fly away. And from. The third place, maybe you end up ten or whatever. So you can, as we did, you know, start at the rank, you know, six or seven and end up first. But you can also start at the place of second and end up ten, you know. So basically, this is a big stress about that. And then the third point that was really stressful for me, but it's very personal, is that a month before I was helping a friend to fly. And I was telling him that I was going to fly an incredible BV flight adventure in Peru. And unfortunately, he had an accident and he died.
And so I was kind of nervous, too. I have I am very, very confident in Pierre skills, abilities. It's incredible pilot. But I know that in a race, you know, people can take risks that are, you know, different that what they would do, you know, normally. So I was very, very confident in that. And then, of course, I was very, very confident in the team, because I was very confident in the team, because the pressure, because the team, because they want, you know, to shift something. And all of my briefings, they were ending the quiz. OK, keep it safe. So that was like my primary concern, you know, have fun and keep safe. And of course, you know, the flying day at Pic du Midi was a little bit borderline, in my opinion, you know, for everybody, you know, that flew.
But that's my vision. My vision of with my level of pilot. And of course, I'm not in that place. It's difficult, you know, to judge this. But that was actually giving me, of course, you know, a certain level of pressure also. So three, three reason why I was kind of nervous and on this on this race. And and I want to say a big hello to Henry that had, you know, this accident in the. In Peru. And yeah, that's like that. He didn't make any mistake. Just got unlucky. And so that's also the bad side of paragliding.
Yeah, of course. And of course, we're, you know, we're we're talking about Antoine's partner in Peru. And and then, you know, another very famous X-Alps pilot, Nick Nannens, very recently had a terrible accident and he was supposed to be in the X-Pyr. And it is something a part of this sport that just keeps raining down on us, doesn't it? It's not something you can really escape. But Manu, I'd love to talk to you. We're going to talk about the dramatic end while we still have a hopefully decent connection here. But I also wanted to ask you about philosophy of kind of Pierre and what it was like, you know, in seven days you experience as an athlete.
A lot of upsets. And downs and the physical hardship and everything else. And, you know, we have I've spent quite a bit of time with Chrigel and with Maxime, and they're very different. Their approach is Kriegel's is famously very Swiss. He doesn't get too distraught. He stays pretty positive. He always really looks like he's having a lot of fun. You know, Kriegel's just always looks like he's having a good time. Whereas Maxime can be and he would be the first to admit this, that he's he can be pretty emotional. And, you know, he gets gets pretty upset. And and, you know, just a little bit more maybe goes to the extremes more. And I'd love to just hear what's what's Pierre like? What what is the kind of the philosophy of the team?
Is it very much? Is it really serious? Is it really fun? And what do you think in the end works and what worked for your team? Because you did incredibly well.
On Pierre. We spent. You know, Pierre works that way, you know, at the beginning of a project. He just, you know, try to set up where he wants to arrive, you know, and he will just do what he can do to arrive there. But it's don't don't forget that it was a first first try. You know, it was the very first try. We never trained before. We never went, you know, one weekend, you know, together, you know, to train or do something. The first day they really did something together was the first day of the comp. So basically, we were kind of relaxed and as you were talking about philosophy, and this is exactly what I was asking regularly to Pierre, you know, like what is your philosophy because basically in every decision you take you can either say, okay, I am a gambler and I like to try something.
And maybe become first or I am I want to secure my position. So basically in terms of strategy, it's really like what what is your mood? What do you have in mind? And and during the race the mood of Pierre could have changed, you know, a couple of time, you know in this matter. And so I was always asking him before to propose him some options, you know, in what what was his his mood, you know, like do you want to try something or do you want to? Secure your position. Therefore, as it was the first comp like this, I don't think Pierre had a goal to arrive, you know, in the I would say the five ten first guys, you know, so basically when you realize he was able to play, you know, in this in this group, you know of the ten first guys he was he was kind of happy and then when we made, you know, like a couple of interesting move and finally,
we were. Really, you know in the lead then came the questions, you know about, you know, what do you want to do with that? You know, do we want to secure your position and or do you want to try something? And this is exactly finally what what happened at the end, you know at one moment when we arrived close to can he go? I had the strong feeling that we had to let Chrigel go alone and walk six seven kilometers. 800 meters, you know up to take off and the south side of the mountain and this was at called the month and called the Monday little bit before, you know, Kenny go and actually by chance, you know, it happens that Pierre landed at this call and I was like at that moment.
I was really focused on I should tell him to land here and go pass this mountain. On foot on take off on the other side. I was not sure it was very takeoff able. I was not sure, you know, he would get, you know, super good conditions. However, my soundings were telling me they had, you know, like 500 meter more ceiling and more, you know, instability on the other side of that mountain than going on the north side of the can he go and at that time you're second you have Chrigel just a little bit in front. You have, you have Maxim in the back and it's so hard, you know, to take a decision that would be totally different. And so that was once again the question, you know, what do you want to do?
And at that time, I think you must be super strong to take this type of decision. Believe a lot in in your in yourself, you know to try that and that's that's the whole difficulty of this type of race, you know, and you're convinced of something. It's not the same situation. For instance, when Pierre is in Val-Lauron in front, you have Chrigel and Maxim the guys in the back. They are fairly far away and you take another option. You know that if it works you beat everybody, but if you lose you don't lose that much and in this situation you are in second, you know that, you know, maybe you're lucky and you finish first and would you take a specific option?
You know when you have Chrigel in front of you and the, the terrain is not the terrain of Chrigel. It's not like if he's flying in his garden, but you're not flying in your garden either meaning, so then we hardly go fly there. I mean I flew there, you know long time ago, but and this is all the memories I have. Pierre doesn't have a tough knowledge a strong knowledge of this area and specifically, you know arriving on the Canigou and like this usually when you go flying in Sardin you fly your own form. You don't go, you know that direction too much. So basically, this was an, a non terrain, the excellent cross country pilot of Fonromeu, they regularly go to Serre and to the sea. It's not not so often either, but we didn't have the knowledge and so at that moment we decided, you know to to follow to follow Chrigel and then Maxime arrived.
He got a little bit better thermal. He arrived a little bit higher, you know on that ridge of the Canigou and he managed to climb, you know, on this ridge, which ends up in a circus that is totally close with the summit at 2700 meters. And that was like so oddly he could pass and then we saw him climb and pass and we are just like what?
And at that moment Chrigel, he had such an incredible decision to land in the such a nasty place. Climb like a goat, you know, super fast and Pierre did the same, but he landed a little bit lower. It was a little bit more complicated to escape from the place. He was and the and yeah, that was the move of Chrigel was like he's ready to anything, you know, he has the mirrors on he knows was what's going on in his back, you know, and as soon as Maxime picked up altitude,
then Trigali knew what he had to do, you know, and what he had to do was pretty wild and pier did the same and but he did it and and and that's it. And then at that moment probably I would say Maxime got lucky and then a little bit later he got lucky and Chrigel got lucky. But finally, you know, what you need is to be a little bit in the front at the moment. You cross the finish line. And that's what Chrigel managed to do. I would say as usual, but this time maybe had a little bit more entertainment than other times because Maxime was really hot and Pierre was hot too, you know, so yeah,
that last day was was just it was a roller coaster, right? You know, Pierre started the day off ahead and then Maxime and Chrigel flew together and they caught him up like you said, and and and then it just looked like Maxime had it, you know, it was it was the race was over Maxime one and then and and suddenly Chrigel flies over his head and flies within three kilometers of the final turn point and wins the race. And the first thing I said to my friend Ben who supported me in all my races was he's so it's incredible. He did it again. It's so lucky and he said it's not luck. It's Chrigel. He does this every time. And and you know, I is I understood it.
He and Maxime were basically flying together and and he like you said, he stuffed it into this really tough place and climbed up higher into better air and then and then jumped him in the air. And but how do you know to do that? How did he how did he have that in his mind to I mean, were the were the signs obvious or was this just Chrigel being an eagle? No,
he didn't really had better air. What happened is that when they arrived on that reach of the Canigou, we all knew that would be cool, you know to get on the little South Face and climb there and pass, you know, like Maxime did Chrigel and Pierre. They were in the front, but they never managed. They worked a while, you know on this Ridge to try to get on the South Face and they knew they need they want to do this, you know, as the other option was to fly. Fly around the North Face of Canigou and we know it's possible, but it's long and it's oddly because you you get low, you know all the time. It's a little bit complicated tricky, but that was you know, the the option if you cannot climb there, so they arrived there says try to climb it doesn't work.
So they say okay, we start to go on the North Face at this moment. Maxime arrives just a little bit higher because he had the chance to have a thermal that climbed a little bit higher before, right on this Ridge and he climbs directly boom. And so at that moment, it was quite obvious that if you go on the top of the mountain and you take off and that South Face you will climb also. Okay, so this is for Chrigel that was crystal clear. So this is what he did. He land, you know in this nasty place, climb the mountain 400m, take off in another nasty place and get you know to 2700m, 650m, like did the exactly like did Maxime and pretty much takes the same route like Maxime.
He follows Maxime then they had to cross a big Valley. This is the Valley of Amelie Lebin, which the flying side of Ceres and Maxime he got to Ceres probably I would say 20 minutes before Chrigel or maybe half an hour. I don't I cannot be you know, exact on this and when Maxime arrived on Ceres, he will climb he climbed on the mountain, reach 1.5 and he has the goal at 30 km with a light south wind, you know against his flying into the wind to get to the goal. And so he's a 1.5 and he knows it's not enough. Definitely. So he wait, he walked the place. He gets to 1.5, 1.4, 1.5, 1.4, 1.3, 1.350 and at this moment, he says, okay, if I wait more, I will end up at 1000m, you know on the mountain and he goes,
Chrigel arrive later on in the very same place. Okay, he gets a little bit more altitude when when Maxime went, you know, and finally finds nothing. Well, it's find a little bubble, you know, and it just pass, you know, the highway and he's on the ground and Chrigel strategically. He knows that he's behind. So strategically, there is no hurry. Pierre is far in the back. He has Maxime in front of him. If he goes for glide, maybe for sure, he gets to Maxime, you know, a little bit behind him and then he has to race like crazy. Maybe beat him, you know, on the running but Maxime is quite good in running too, you know, so basically it's not sure I will get him.
So he wait, he wait, he wait and then at one moment he goes, he has a little bit more altitude than Maxime. Maybe he has like 200m more and I my opinion, there is a north wind. He's going to be, I think the little call where you have the highway that is entering, you know, the south face and when Maxime he went little bit lower, then he got pretty much caught in this North airflow and and and and Chrigel. Basically, he flew above that tube. This is my understanding and I discuss this with some some guys that are, you know, specialist of the area and they quite believe this is what happened is that, you know, Chrigel for some luck understanding.
I don't know of the situation look because finally he got it managed, you know, to to to leave the mountain higher than than Maxime. What could have done Maxime? I could have waited there, you know, he could have waited there, you know, and say, okay, I wait, I wait that the risk is that finally, you know, he doesn't find the thermal anymore. You know, it was not super active, you know that moment and then he's also landed there. So he's his decision and my opinion was not bad. It's difficult to take another decision when you are half an hour in front of the followers and you don't make it again to your ceiling and you spend already a while, you know, trying to make it and you're just like, okay, he's not going to come again.
I go, you know, before it's too late. So this is the decision in took obviously was wrong because when Kruger arrived, he managed to climb higher and and finally passed above the highway and then he found another one. And that was the game was over at that moment. Maxime was on the ground. Kruger was stumbling right above his head.
The live tracking was pretty much fucked at that time. And so it was not so clear. I was looking at the live tracking and I reported to Pierre. Hey, Maxime and the Kruger are landed, you know, on the other side of the highway and then I looked a little bit more carefully and and Kruger was 600 meter above the head of a maximum. And I said, I reported to Pierre. Okay. No, no, no, it's not like that, you know, and unfortunately,
Pierre did the same move. Finally, he climbed to the mountain. He took off on the south face. He managed to climb to 2650, you know, like the two other guys, but a little bit later when he got to Cera, he couldn't at all climb. So probably, you know, like Kruger arrive at the perfect moment where the conditions they were just perfect. So he could climb a little bit higher than Maxime did and Pierre never managed to climb at all, you know, so it was just a window and and and that's it, you know, I mean he got there. So, and he managed to climb higher and then when he passed in the flat, he got another thermal and then he landed, you know, close to the finish line. But yeah, for Pierre, there was we had big projects.
I have I had seen, you know, this movement of air turning around,
you know, like the little cities they have in the flat. And so I say to Pierre, okay, we will go along the mountain along the Alps. You know, following the mountain before to go to the finish line. So we had we still had some plan, you know, not to finish first, but maybe to finish second, but it was not possible for Pierre to climb again. The conditions they were dead at the time he arrived, but that was just I would say maybe 40 minutes after Kruger something like this and it was for him just impossible to climb. So that's well, as I always say to the guys, you know, they fly that fly in my my cross country class. When a guy got lucky know all the time, maybe it's not like, you know, at the end.
So maybe in our mind, you know, he's like, but maybe for him, it's not like, you know, I mean, he that's what what your your supporters say. Is it's true, you know, at the end, Kruger won, you know, so basically we can analyze the stuff and say, okay, and they went to the same place. My team got, got little bit lower. Pierre couldn't climb and Kruger arrive at the moment between them and he was able to climb higher and then it happened super good for him. But you know, that's that's I don't know. Yeah, I have a doubt, you know about the luck and stuff like this. Maxim would have been even a little bit more late doing the same move. Pierre and Kruger would have been further, you know, in the North Face and then they would have been.
Probably no way they catch with him, you know, so it's sometime the point of being, you know, timing at the right place at the right moment when Maxim arrived on the can ego, he arrived exactly at the right moment at the right altitude to climb and the two other guys. They were not exactly at the good altitude and not certainly at the right moment. So well moment, maybe not but attitude and then for me, I still have this question in my mind. If we had landed at called the mountain and if we had walked, you know, one hour to take off, you know, on the other side, what would have happened, you know, and so that's always, you know, a question we want. We will never have, you know, the answer because it will be impossible to actually to repeat the situation.
Yeah, those those questions live with you forever. There's always the what ifs of all the races I've done in the X ops. There's always a 2015. If I'd only done that in 2017, I'd only done that. And yeah, it's just part of the part of the fun and part of the adventure. Well menu. Thanks for sharing your story. You guys rocked it. It was very impressive and and you're even out in the lead there for a while. I thought you guys had it but nice work and big hug to Pierre and looking forward to racing with them here soon and congratulations, but thanks for sharing this this cool adventure. You guys had with us. Thank
you, Gavin for having me. Me and the show and that was a pleasure to show this and yeah, we are quite happy to have put, you know, some fun in the in the race and the fact that finally the last day Simon arrived later and you know, flu, you know, midday, you know, why Pierre was working put us enough pressure to be super happy to be served because the same thing could well, I'm not sure you know, because the South wind was stronger, but we never know, you know, man, Simon could have, you know, passed above the head of Pierre while he was working on the flat. So we were definitely all the team super happy to be served, you know, on the podium because that was kind of hot, you know behind.
Yeah, that was that in Simon can never be counted out either. He also had a great race. But yeah, for rookies going into such a hard event. You guys really crushed it. Very impressive. Thank you so much. Thanks buddy. If you find the cloud-based may have valuable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. You can give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher. However, you get your podcast that goes a long ways and help spread the word. You can blog about it on your own website or share it on social media. You can talk about it on the way out to launch with your pilot friends. I know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way. And of course you can support us financially. This show does take a lot of time, a lot of editing, a lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind-the-scenes cost. So if you can support us financially, all we've ever asked for is a buck a show and you can do that through a one-time donation through PayPal, or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out.
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