182. A Walk (and Fly) down Memory Lane - Tom De Dorlodot

X-Alps Junkie

Each of the years with some of these athletes who have done it a bunch of times and find out what went on and how things went down, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And our guest this week is Tom de Dorlodot. Other than Toma, he's done it more than anyone. He's done it eight times and he's in for this year and his ninth. So we go way back to 2007 and had only been around since 2003. So he just missed the first three and find out about what it was like when they used to use paper maps and had no tech and no GPS and much different communications. And it was in a lot of ways much more of an adventure and not so much a race where the athletes would wait for one another and do it together and carry a lot more gear.

And I didn't really. I didn't really change big time until Chrigel came on the scene in 2009 and really started pushing the lightweight thing. So this is really fun to go back that far and listen to Tom's stories. And along the way, as we go through each of his races, we get into some really good advice that he has and just some of the takeaways and some of the things he's seen and the way he thinks about safety and how things are changing now that he has a couple kids. And yeah, I was fascinated to talk to him just to find out how he stays motivated to do these over and over and over again, because it's quite a big thing. These campaigns, please reach out if you're digging these, let me know.

And there's a whole bunch more people I can sit down with. But, you know, X-Alps is very special to me. And if the general audience doesn't find these as intriguing, we can skip around and do some more normal shows, too. But we've got a bunch of folks lined up for more of these. I mean, it's a lot of fun. If you like them, let us know. Appreciate it. So without further delay, please enjoy this X-Alps talk and this walk and fly down memory lane with Conor Dorlido. Cheers.

Tom, what a pleasure, man, to see you here. You're a lot more clean shaven than I am, but you're in your new place. And is it Fial? Is that how you say it in the Azores? I visited there by boat. Yeah. Years ago. But yeah,

exactly. Yeah. We are we are now in Fial. We just moved into our new house. So that's a pleasure to talk to you, too, man.

Yeah, it's been a while, but I'm excited for your family in a new place. And are you both I know you speak everything, but you speak Portuguese as well. Is that just part of the repertoire?

Man, we are. Yeah, we're learning to speak at the moment. It's still pretty basic, but we speak Spanish so we can kind of understand, you know, what they're saying. But the funny thing is that my son, Jack, is only he's about to be four years old and he goes to school. He's been going to school for two months and he already speaks Portuguese. So he's going to teach us. I think it's crazy when they're so small, they learn so fast. And but yeah, we understand most of it. And we have really good friends there also. I mean, the paragliding community in the Azores has been super welcoming. Also, it's like you have a family everywhere. Every year you go. Yeah. And. Being a pilot. And so, yeah, and there there's a flying site 500, you know, 500 meters from my place.

So I can take off there in the morning, fly on the east faces of the island and then land in the in the backyard. So it's beautiful. Really enjoying it. Yeah.

And will you be there for the most part up until the race? Is that where you'll be doing most of your training? Or I know you're heading off for the Alps, I think, tomorrow. But is that something like that was more of a work trip? But is is this where is this home? Kind of year round?

Yes, this is going to be home year round. I think it's I mean, it's not the perfect place to train because it's still pretty small islands. And, you know, the flying conditions are good. There's always a place to fly, but it's not like you can fly long distances or stuff. But but in terms of physical training, this is perfect because, you know, there are trails everywhere. People do a lot of running and hiking there. So I can train. I can cross the island. You know, there's a trailer everywhere. There's a trail every year called the Blue Trail, the Azores Trail, where you can run distances up to sixty five or 100 K. So we have trails everywhere. So for just to go out and run, it's perfect. And the weather, it's pretty, pretty good all year round, you know, so it's never really cold. But I will for sure organize a few trips to to the Alps.

I'm planning also to sail to the Canary Islands this winter and train more in the Canaries. And then I'll go to the Alps for sure for some ski touring and mountaineering and flying. So this is the place to be, I guess, probably in in May, early May. I'll move there with my van and live in the van for like a month before the race.

I love the food there. As I'm hearing you talk about the Azores, I always think about the sardines. I'm crazy about their sardines. Yeah, I mean, they're delicious. And it's such a culture that's based around the ocean, which I also love. Most of our time was spent on San Miguel and where a lot of the pilots live. And what a community, too. I mean, they have that big bash every August. And it's a fantastic place. I'm jealous.

Yeah. And it kind of it kind of it feels a little bit like Europe 30 years ago. Like it's it. You know, everyone knows each other. It's it's a small community in our in our island. There's like 15000 people. So everyone kind of knows each other. And and so it's it's really cool. Like we made really good friends and there are local farmers. Everything grows on this island. You know, so we have a project of growing some some some fruits and vegetables and stuff. And you go down to the sea. You can you can go spearfishing or fishing, catch a fish, you know, put it on the fire. The meat is great also because they have cows and they are grass fed all year round and stuff. So it's it's yeah. Quality of life being out in nature every day and close to the ocean.

And we thought that it was a good place for for our kids, you know, basically. So that's that's pretty much why we moved there. And I still travel a lot. So I it's a good place for me to come down and just, you know, land and sit back and, you know, just take some time for me to to be with my family and quiet. And yeah, so we really enjoy. I mean, I'll be able to tell you more about it in a few months because I've only been there for for just a few months. But I love it. It's beautiful. Yeah.

Congratulations. That feels good to have a place. Well, hey, we're going to take a walk down memory lane, Tom, with your. X outs. We just did this with Chrigel last week. And I'm going to do this with with more of you who have done a bunch of these races can sit down with Hans the next week and do this. So what I wanted to start with before we get into your your first, which was 2007, no one's done it more except Toma. So you're you're next in line with eight. This will be your ninth. I think I have that right. And yeah. But before we get into that 2007 race and hear your stories. I'm

sure you have a lot of stories

of each of your events, which I know is going to be taxing on your memory with having done eight of them. But I wanted to see, you know, usually this time of year is, you know, when I'm starting, I'm not doing this one, so I'm not doing it this year, but usually this time of year, I'm well into the training pretty hard. And I've been just kind of thinking this year, you know, not doing it, how difficult it would be to motivate to, you know, get that fit again. You know, I think some people. Like regal and those, they just kind of stay fit because they're doing so much hike and fly racing, but you know, you're spending a lot of time with your family and sailing and the search projects and a lot of other things. And so with the, with the race on the horizon and it being your ninth, do you have any trouble with getting ready or getting motivated?

Do you worry about much going into it from the physical side or is it you've done it so many times? You'll just, you know, you'll be ready.

I think it's a, it's a really good question. And that's, that's very interesting because I mean, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. in. And I do think that it's also because I take a little bit of time to just do nothing. But I mean, professional athletes will tell you now it's better to train all the time and stuff. But I'm not sure about that. You know, it's good to also disconnect and do other things or maybe focus more on the flying or go on other adventures and change your mindset a little bit and then come back and start to train again. But in terms of motivation, and it's difficult, I would say, of course, some days you're super motivated because the weather is great and you have a good friend to go train with or so you're having a good time, you're in a good mood, you want to train. But many days also you're not motivated and you just want to stay inside or do something else. And that's where discipline comes in and routine, you know.

And with the years, I kind of understood how to work that out. Like I need to just set a plan and also have people looking at my training, like have a professional trainer and work on my discipline and my routine. It's like, okay, every day, wake up, go for your run, do your meters, you know, go train, go flying and work on the routine. And so I organize my trainings with friends. I say, okay, on Wednesday, I go cycling with this guy. On Thursday, I go running with my wife. On Friday, I do something else. I'm trying to keep, you know, busy and motivated. But having said that, some of the races where I came the strongest physically and really well trained,

were maybe not my best races. So, you know, it's not only about being fit and strong and physically prepared and trained. It's also in your head and the strategy and your team. And it's so many things that you have to work on. So some athletes, I think, maybe focus too much on training when actually there's a lot more going on in those races, as you know. And so we will see. This year, I approach it a bit differently. I think I, you know, you're also a you have, you know, also a daughter and you, you know, like it's for me, I want to spend time with my family. I want to work on other projects. I want to do other things. You know, I'm not a monomaniac. I'm not 100 % on X-Alps.

You know, X-Alps is part of my life and part of my career. But this is, I'm not, I don't wake up in the morning only thinking about X-Alps, you know, even if I love the adventure and I love the whole thing and the race and stuff. So I'm going to be I'm going to push myself as much as I can because I love it. But, but this is not for me the most important thing. I should put it that way, this way. Yeah.

How have the optics going into, you know, say the 2023 race changed because of your family and children compared to in the past? Has it, has it just mellowed your view? Has it, has it changed how you approach it? I mean, I know in the last race, you're always, I think you, you make very decisions and you're, you've always been more, I think, conservative than, than some have with your eye on the long game. You know, if you, if you get hurt, you make a bunch, you know, you don't have the long game. And so, you know, in this last race, there was definitely a lot of really hairy weather and, and you chose to, you know, sit it out sometimes or walk down or, you know, it was, it was just beyond your, your comfort level.

From what I understand, I was way behind you at that point. I was just, you know, getting the messages, but is that, is that because of the family or is that just who you are?

No, I think there's two things. I think the first thing is that my approach to competition has changed. I like to, I like to compete, you know, because it's fun and I like the adventure and I like to be with my friends out there and I am there for the adventure. But if I really think about it, like to just go there to try to beat someone and be the strongest, somehow, I don't know, I, I guess it's, it's an ego thing, which I understand. And, and, you know, people want to be the first and the fastest and the it's cool. I mean, we all approach races with different state of mind and mindset, but I used to be very competitive. I used to compete and I used to always compare myself to other pilots.

And I used to try to be the fastest and the highest and this and this, but then now I realize, okay, well, it's great, but does it really matter at the end of the day? And the answer to me, it's no, it doesn't really matter. I actually, I don't give a shit. And so it, this is, this is the thing. It's, it's, it's interesting because, um, I, I wake up in the morning in the middle of the race and I want to push myself and I want to have big flights and I want to enjoy my day and stuff, but I don't really, you know, I don't really care if I'm in front of someone or behind someone, you know, there's always going to be a winner. There's always going to be a loser. Um, but does it really matter so much? And I think it's, it's, um, we have to think about this because the whole society works like this, you know, it's, it's all about competition.

Who's got the bigger car and the biggest house and the biggest, whatever. Um, does it really matter? You know, what is it, is it more important than, you know, have beautiful experiences or, you know, have a nice conversation with, with one of the other athletes or meet some people on the way or discover new areas or learn things about yourself. Um, and I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's you know, so for me, it changed in a way in the last years, I cannot tell you exactly when, but, but I can feel that now I'm not into, you know, this ego thing anymore of trying to be, you know, the best and the first and, and, and maybe I was never built to be one of those guys, you know? Um, so that's one thing. And the other thing is for sure the risk, um, it's dangerous, man, this race, and we've seen people doing crazy things, you know, and, and I've, I've seen it.

With my eyes, some guys almost killed themselves in front of me, you know, and, and they do, they, they do this and, and it's just to maybe gain one position in the ranking. Um, and, and I'm like, why would you do that? Like, why would you take off in the middle of a thunderstorm when you can just sit here and live another day, you know, and, and you'll have other days to fly and, you know, and it's, so we've seen accidents, we've seen people getting hurt, but we also, we also have seen many very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very tricky and very shitty situation where they just saved themselves, you know, in the very last moment because they were lucky and because they have a lot of experience, obviously, but, but I'm like, does it really, you know, is it really interesting or is it what we want to show to the world also, and to the people who follow the race, you know, that we can just go and fly in any conditions and take risks and just don't give a shit about our lives, you know, and now that I have kids and we, I feel that I'm responsible for them and I want to be there for them when they grow.

And so, I had my share, my fair share of accidents, you know, I broke my back once, I broke my foot, I had accidents during X-Alps, you know, so I have, I've been through this, but now I think about it differently and I just think, okay, risks management is important to me. I, and, you know, last time I think maybe I could have gained a few places in the ranking, maybe get into the top 10 if I had risk more, but then, okay, oh, I'm, I'm number eight instead of being number 11. Great. And what, and I risked my life. So, for me, it's more about telling a good story and sharing it with friends and learning things that I can share later on and, you know, just learn to be a better pilot and learn to be a safer pilot. And, and also try to convey this message to, to the people, to, to the pilots who are following us, because a lot of people are looking up to the Red Bull athletes and to the Red Bull X-Alps athletes.

And we have a responsibility somehow to, to show the way and, and, and show that you can be, you know, you can, you can do big flights, but you can do it safely. You can prepare yourself to do those flights and that sometimes we should all leave our ego aside a little bit, you know, and just say, Hey guys, take it easy. What matters is to have a good time. You know, let's forget about the kilometers a little bit. Let's forget about the speed, you know, let's just enjoy flying, you know? And, and, and that's important, especially now in a world where it's all about social media, you know, the track and records and stuff. I think it's interesting to, you know, maybe step back a little bit and see it differently, but that's my point of view only. And, and, uh, and I'm, and I'm happy to see that some guys like, uh, Aaron Kligle and the guys in front are really pushing, uh, and their competitiveness is, is really inspiring everyone, you know?

Um, I'm not, I don't want to criticize anyone. I'm just saying that I'm, I'm in another place at this stage of my life, I think. Yeah.

Sounds like a pretty good place. Well, let's go to a completely different place because this, uh, you've been at this for

a long time. I've been at this a

while, 2007 first, how old were you? And, and remind everybody of the route. Cause you, you didn't start that year where we start now and, uh, certainly didn't end it where we end now. Uh, so take us back. And, and as I said, before the top of the show, what we'd love to hear is, you know, and this is going to be taxing on your memory, but you know, a really high point, something that you remember that was just a beautiful experience and maybe the opposite of that, which often, when you look back, the bad ones are, are high points too. You know, the mistakes are great things, but maybe something that you remember from that race that, uh, it was, it was tough.

Yeah. I mean, this, this was, um, uh, one of my, uh, yeah, one of the craziest, um, moment of my, my sparklining career career was to take part in the first Red Bull X-Ups. It was in 2007 and I was, I just turned 21 years old. So I was, I was pretty young. Um, and, uh, and I remember when I, when I subscribed, I thought I'm just going to subscribe and, you know, just to, to be there and to, to let them know that I exist. And so maybe in two years they'll take me, you know, but I didn't really expect to be selected to be honest. And so, but, but it was fine to me. Like I was competing in, uh, in the Belgian championship, I was doing a nice flights and I, and I had a good level and stuff, but you know, it was, I had been looking, I'd been watching the DVDs of the 2003 and 2005, uh,

uh, you know, races and those guys were my heroes, you know, and I was super young. Um, so there I received an email one day, um, and saying, Hey, Tom, you're selected for the Red Bull X-Ups. And I, well, okay, that's something. And so I, I had no sponsors at the time I was, I was paying everything myself. I, um, I had a small company. I was doing, uh, I held photographies with, with a paramotor and, uh, on Saturday morning, I would go from door to door knocking at the doors and, and say, Hey, I took a photo of your house. Would you like to buy it? And that's how I was making like my pocket money, if I can say. And, um, and, and so I, I raised a little bit of money with that, but I was on such a low budget. Like, I think, I think I did all raise with 1,500 euros or something like that.

Um, I was sleeping in my car. No, I didn't have a van and that was, uh, it was super small van, like, uh, like a post office event, like a small one. So I had to sleep with the doors open in the back and I was getting wet every time it would, it would rain, you know? And, um, and my supporter, I, I kind of told my supporter, Hey man, um, can you come and help me, you know, just have to bring me food once a day or something, you know, the rest of the day, you can stay in the campsite, you can go to the swimming pool, you do your thing, you know? And so my supporter would say goodbye in the morning and I, he would go and visit villages and towns and go on, on these little cultural trip, you know? And in the evening he would come back and give me food. So I, I remember, I remember being in the line at the supermarket to buy food.

I was, I was standing like I would make, I would be in the line to buy an ice cream in Italy, uh, and wait for 15 minutes so that it would be my turn to get my ice cream, you know, because I had no food. I lost 11 kilograms on that race in 10 days. Yeah. I was, you should see the photos. It's crazy. I remember Michel Ferrer took a photo, of me and I looked like so skinny, uh, one day in Marano Valley, I almost, I, I blacked out because I had, I didn't have food for, for so long. I was hiking in the fields and, and my supporter was not coming. And, and so, um, but you have to think, I mean, we had no GPS at the time. We had no smartphones. Um, we had paper maps. We didn't know about the odds.

Like we, we were really like trying to find our ways, but we would stop in villages and say, Hey, how do we go to the top? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At the end of the afternoon, we came back almost to the point where we started five hours before. And it started raining. It started raining. And we opened an umbrella. And we had one umbrella for the two of us. So we were the two of us, two rebel athletes, like rebel East South athletes, sitting just below the umbrella. And some days, my supporter didn't find me in the evening. I had to knock on doors and sleep at some local's house. Ask, hey, can I sleep in your house? So that was my first experience. But it went really good. Can you imagine that the first day of the Rebel East South in 2007, because we didn't really know.

We were not prepared. My supporter came with a McDonald's menu in the evening and said, hey, Tom, here, I found this McDonald's french fries burger. And, yeah, we were just so inexperienced. I mean, it was a big day. I mean, now I can say it. You know, it's been 20 years almost. But I didn't have, at the time, I don't think I had enough experience to take a race like this. But it was pretty much the same for most of the field. I mean, those guys, like, I remember that year, the Russian guy came with a backpack. It was around 20 kilograms. And I remember him showing his backpack to the race director, Steve Cox. And Steve said, okay, that's it.

It's a good job. But can you show me your flying gear now? And the Russian said, this is my flying gear. You know, like, and it was like, no, but do you have anything, you know, like lighter? And he had a gradient SR7 that was maybe 7 kilograms. And a Woody Valley harness that was 12 or 13 kilograms. He was a 20 kilograms backpack. A lot crazier. And his point was, no, no, but I fly better with this, you know, high performance harness and a lot of weights. So a big glider. And it was, it was, the way he was, you know, like, there were people like that in 2007, you know? So, so it was a different game. It was a different race. We would fly with sleeping bags, with a little gas stove to be able to cook in the mountains when we would land.

You know, sometimes someone will sit on the mountain for one day without even moving, waiting for the next day to be better, to get better weather, you know? So it was a different approach. And then from there, it only went faster and faster and faster. But, but the race was, I was doing really well. I was in the top 10 for the whole race. So for being so young and, you know, so inexperienced, it was good. I didn't need to sleep much, you know, because at the time it was 24-7. So we didn't have to stop by night. And that was, that was crazy. But, but after the race.

You started at the Dockstein, right? And then didn't you go down to? You went down to the Marmolada, you went down to Italy. And then where?

Yeah. Then back up to Switzerland. I mean, I don't exactly remember, but, but we had, yeah, I think at the time it was like four turn points or something. It was so much easier. And some people would go south and some people would go north and you would never see them. You know, like it was, the distances between the athletes were huge. But yeah, we went to, we went to Marmolada. I remember flying with, with Vincent Sprungly going to Marmolada. Vincent was flying a harness. He was flying a harness without back protection, like extremely light. And I remember when he prepared his thing, he also went to Super and he took the smallest rescue parachute ever built. Like it's, it's small, like extra, extra small that if you had to throw it, it would have break his back for sure. He had no back protection. And it was just when they ask, Hey, do you have a rescue parachute?

Yeah, it's here. It was like really super small. And, um, and, and we were whole using like, uh, Helmets, like we had bicycle helmets, you know, like extremely light that if you crash, you, you wouldn't be protected. Um, and, and no one gave a shit about it. We were all flying prototypes and gliders that didn't even exist on the market, you know? So it's, it's, it's good. It changed, you know, and now it's a lot safer and, you know, the organization, everything is a lot more, uh, organized than the, but yeah, we went to Marmolada. And I remember like the water was, was crazy. We, we flew quite far. We flew quite fast. Uh, but still it was taking a lot more days. We, I think that race lasted like 13 days or something.

Um, and, and sadly I had an accident towards the end. Like, uh, I was getting close to, to Montblanc and, uh, my glider collapsed and I crashed. Uh, I was on full speed bar, very close to the ground, but the glider collapsed. I crashed and I broke my, uh, my hand and, uh, I wanted to continue. I said to the organization, yeah, it's okay. You know, I have just put a cast in and I'm, I'm just going to continue. But they say, no, no, no, you cannot fly like this. Um, and it was good. It was a good decision because the next day I woke up and my back was blue. Um, it was good to, to go. So, um, and, and from there, I never stopped. I went 2009, 2013, 15, 17, 19. Yeah. And you had all the races.

We'll get to these. You've had a couple of other injuries with their X-outs related, but okay. So that was great start, Tom. That was fantastic. I remember, I remember that was Nate's. That was Nate's first time. And only X-outs in 2007, his supporter was his, his wife and there, I think, I think Ripley was two years old and, uh, and Nate's dad, that was, they had, they had a camper van that they rented and the daughter hated Nate's dad. They didn't like each other at all. And, uh, and she would, you know, he would call her at some point, you know, sometime during the race and say, Hey, you know, can I, can you bring me a sandwich? And, and his wife would go, Nate. We're at the pool. You know, we we'll see you tonight. And, and then every night to find him, she would have to call Red Bull headquarters and find out where he was.

Cause they, like you said, cause they didn't have GPS and they didn't have the tracking. Yeah. Just totally give the name

of a village and say, and say, I am waiting at the church of this village, you know? And, uh, and of course we had no, we had no extra batteries, you know, the phones were run off, you know? And, and I mean, it was good that. Yeah. teams were around and and it was a lot more uh i mean it's still the case i think teams are still helping each other a lot but at the time it was really like you you should you you needed to count to be able to count on on other teams because if not you would just die on the side of the road you know so the teams were would always stop and say hey do you need water do you need food and stuff and but after a while you wouldn't see anymore anyone you know like people would sit here and there and being lost and it was uh it was a bit messy um but very interesting and uh way more of an adventure than a race it

seemed like back then i mean it seemed like a lot more and you

know yeah and at the time i was i was really short on money you know and so i remember um when i talked to it was my first sponsor basically i got a glider for free uh from from they say hey we want to support you and and so i was like okay great but i was just inferior inferior between two sizes and so i thought well you know for the xls because it's it's um i'm light my harness is going to be light and stuff i'm going to take uh you know i should take a smaller glider but for the rest of the year it's better if i have the bigger size so i just thought okay i'm just going to take the bigger size and and i'm just going to take ballast with me and so here i was yes because you know i couldn't afford to have two gliders so so here i was i had a i had those those bags to you know like the shower um the the showers that you use you you fill the bag like a black bag with water and it's a shower like a camp shower basically i had one of those in my harness um in my back when i was flying and and as i was losing so much weight during the race you know i had to put more and more water and and still i felt really light you and so on the first day on the taking off on dagstein i was on top of the dagstein and the wind was blowing super strong and i'm like shit i'm here i need some ballast i'm starting to fill my my harness with with uh a little bit of water and then snow inside the bag and and then a few stones i put a few stones in my harness which is really something you should never do and then i took off and i started flying backwards because my glider was a bit too big you know and so i was like oh my god i'm gonna have to do this again i'm gonna have to do this again i'm gonna have to do this again i'm gonna have to do this again i'm gonna have to do this again i was looking down at dagstein and i was thinking okay i'm i'm gonna be the stupid pilot who flies backward above above dagstein because the wind is too strong and maybe gonna break my legs or something so i pushed i pushed the speed bar as much as i could and slowly slowly slowly i started to cover distance but it really took it took ages to get out you know i was super high it took ages to escape from this place and yeah it was very scary and and it was funny at the same time and when i when i arrived in uh

at the end of the race my glider was really way too big for me and for my weight so i should have for sure i should go for the smaller size

isn't tom isn't that the one that uh isn't that the race that vincent sprungley that was that amazing footage of him being launched with a rope it was that was that 2007 remember on the day it was really windy and somebody held held him with a rope and he you know until he got away from him and

yeah yeah yeah it's yeah i think i think it is yeah he took off from the top yeah we went down a little bit and

he was like oh my god i'm gonna be the stupid pilot who flies backward

took off a little bit lower and i think yeah that's that's what happened yeah that was sketchy man if you if you look at the footage of those years first of all like the gliders were prototypes they were they were sketchy gliders you know like and um and and those guys they're just uh you know on the edge all the time and pushing pushing actually i was there with when vincent hit the cable i think it was that year he was flying and he didn't see a cable he hit the cable um but yeah vincent was also a really good friend i spent a lot of time with him and i was like oh i spent a lot of time with him um and and you know at the time the life tracking system was not so so good you know it was not nothing like what we have today and i remember one day we we went to sleep like somewhere near a village and it was a quite a big wall just next to us and then my mom calls me and says hey why do you sleep in the middle of the cemetery and actually the life tracking was showing us right in the middle of the cemetery you know but like a big one why would you sleep there you know it was it was but vincent was a really nice uh traveling companion and a really good pilot but he was taking a lot of risk it was he was really cool i can't

imagine flying that thing without any back protection or or reserve or nothing yeah

okay he didn't have an he didn't have even have a cocoon like he didn't have a cocoon he had just a line a paragliding line and he was flying like that super light like no cocoon nothing and uh and he was flying fast he flew like flights of 180ks you know which at the time was something really yeah amazing

yeah so 2009 uh you go back for more that was kriegel's first year i don't remember much from 2009 because i was flying then but the first one i really watched very closely was 2011 so tell us about 2009

yeah 2009 was also extremely interesting because at the time still there were no limits um you know you could run all night long and um and so i had been training my uh sleep uh you know i was i i could i could really go for 22 hours a day almost like i was sleeping three hours a day or something i had only one supporter it was at the time where we we would only have one supporter in our teams you know everyone is no one had teams like what we have today we have six seven guys two or three cars you know we we would have one car and one supporter and so my supporter was a really good friend and um and but he was more tired than i was because i would never sleep you know and um and i had this technique it was really funny we had a we we had a bit more of like a bit more logistic with us and i had one of those two seconds uh tents you know like from decathlon the tent that you throw in and it opens and and so we had one of those tents in uh in the car and when i would need to sleep i would just open it next to the road and just crash and i remember i was following uh andy future was the italian he was a strong guy and i was following him and i was i would fake you know in the evening late at night i would just throw the tent next to my car and there the italian would come and drive nearby and see the tent and and they would say to the handy hey andy tommy's went to sleep you can stop you know because he was maybe one or two kilometers in front of me so handy would stop you know and i would just kind of sneak around the tent and start to sleep and i would just go to the tent and i would just start walking again so but we would always wait for him to to set the tent you know and we would do that three or four times because of course someone will call him and say hey go again tommy's tommy's on his feet tommy's hiking again you know keep going so he would he would go again and we would do that like all night long throwing the tent and just laughing at the italians and uh until the moment where he would just you know crash and stop and say okay this is it and um but but my my strongest memory in 2009 and it's this is one of the strongest memory i have from from all the examples that i've took part it was with um julian wirtz um we were near um zermatt and actually i flew out of zermatt the day before so i was i was already in the valleys uh valley you know in the big valley and i was going towards mont blanc and i was in the 10th position and then julian was maybe i think he was like 30 kilometers in my back you know behind me and the weather was horrible so i was like okay this is it i have the 10th position no big deal you know this is good um i'm happy to be in the top 10 that's it but then i don't know how he did it but in the morning the sky was gray you know like it was almost raining and he took off and flew 30ks i don't know like don't ask me how he did it but he did it he flew in those really crappy conditions and landed two kilometers behind me

and there we were all super motivated to to be you know i would i wanted to keep the 10th position and he wanted to get into the top 10 so he started running after me and we are in the valleys and it's flat and it's 100 kilometer of flats basically like or maybe not 100 but i think it's like 50 so we start going for 50k and we and we run and we run we run and all day long and at the end of the day maybe around five o 'clock in the afternoon i call him because he's a good friend and i'm like hey do you have any questions or anything like that and he's like yeah i'm gonna how are you doing man yeah good and you yeah yeah good we tried both kind of faking it you know like we were we were all struck and uh both of us were super tired and i say i i try something and i say hey what do you think if we you know what about we stop for an hour you know at the same time we get some rest we we maybe we eat something you know we change shoes and suck you know and socks and whatever you know we take an hour and then we go again and he says yeah let me think about it i call you back and i'm like yeah i'm gonna go back and i'm like yeah i'm gonna go back so i'm like okay i think he's gonna accept you know it's a good deal we both stopped

and and we and we and we take a bit of rest you know and then he calls me back and say hey tom yeah i'm gonna get you man i'm feeling strong you know i'm not gonna stop you're you're gonna you're gonna fall down you're gonna die you know it was really like it was playing with me but it was so fun and then i started to say no man no no you're not gonna get me i'm gonna run faster but like we were both laughing at each other but we were going and so we started running again and i was so exhausted that night that i fell asleep walking i i crashed on the road like i fell to my face you know boom i almost broke my nose and but i kept on going i kept on going all night long um and then we arrived above martini on the call on the i think it's called the fox la pass or something or one of those and and i'm i'm on top there and it's eight in the morning and i'm like shit now i'm gonna fly the but he's gonna be here at 9 30 when the first thermals come and maybe he gets a lift and then he flies above me but but i cannot wait for him here you know it was just the wrong wrong timing for me so i fly down i pack my things and i start to run like crazy and then i see him an hour later flying and getting close to me and and catching up with me you know and i'm like no you know in the very last moment the race would would start would stop at 10 or something because it was 24

so we had one hour left and he landed just maybe 500 meters behind me but my bag was packed and i was full on you know it was my last breath until my last breath so i kept on running and running and running and then he called me and he said hey tom you got it and he was i remember he was crying you know he was crying and he said tom you have this congradulation this is you have the death position and there i don't know what happened but my brain just shut off and i was like oh my god and i fell um on the side of the road and i couldn't stand up anymore i couldn't walk my supporter had to come and carry me to go all the way to chamonix because i i just had covered and we had covered 120 kilometers in one push non-stop with the backpack so we were smashed i think it's still the record now of the longest distance ever made in 24 hours in the exhaust because it was just non-stop i mean no it's not possible anymore but and and and this is one of my strongest memories because you realize that your limits are way way you know way behind what you think it is you know way behind yeah that's super interesting about exhaust but i i couldn't walk for three days i think after that and running so fast and you know with backpack and everything but it was still one of my uh yeah one of my strongest memory and and i went into the top 10 that year also so it was good i

think one of the greatest buzzes of the race for me has been and this has been in all of them is uh you you have you have these moments where you cannot believe what your body is doing you you cannot believe that it can keep going and it and and most of the time you feel good doing it you're okay you know you're just charging and charging and charging and you think god there's how is this possible it's a real it's a real buzz i mean there are times where it just hurts but uh boy that's an addictive thing when you when it's just you know you're just you know you're just you know you're keep going it

is and and what's interesting is if you like only talking about sleep for example if you if you sleep three hours a night for the next four days and even if you do nothing and you stay at home sitting in your couch you know you're gonna be exhausted but for whatever reason you're in the exhaust and you just go and wake up in the morning and you're fresh and you go for it and you just want to go for more and it's i think there's the adrenaline the kick the love of adventure the opportunities is kind of carrying you also you know like and pushing but um but it's extremely interesting and and i think it's um it's also because you've put so many hours um preparing and it's a long process and so your mind is prepared for this and you're you know you you know what you're here for and but uh but but this is interesting this is really the x-ups difficult moments it's it's something that i always use during my you know when i go through difficult times even during the day you know whatever happens i always think about those moments like okay remember the time that you hiked 120k with with jimmy in your back or remember the day you you covered you did 6 000 meter positive or you know those kind of days that we think we were not able to do those things but we we are and we all are that's that's the interesting part is that we can all do this everyone can do it training and preparing and and you know putting the energy into that and so yeah the limits are way beyond what we think and and that's very interesting and that's what the x-ups show showed us and and and also if you look at the history of x-ups because we're going down memory lane now it's it's interesting to see that the whole sport also has evolved we if you tell me in 2007 that you can cover the whole distance in eight days you know a few four years later i would say ah man impossible and now we're covering more distance a lot more because in 2007 it was 800 kilometers um now we are

1200 kilometers or something which is crazy um and we're doing it faster so uh it's uh yeah it's quite incredible the

level of professionalism i mean even from my first which was 2015 which we're not even two yet with you and and now it's remarkable how much faster everything you know like you're talking about the the logistics and the apps i mean we've got we've got apps to handle everything that you didn't have in 2007 you know for everything that for the whole thing and so for our supporters to know where we are and to communicate and i mean we've got everything at our fingertips and but all the teams are using it and it's uh it's remarkable how fast it has gotten that's me you know i i always say yeah you know in 2015 you could make big mistakes and still totally be in the game you know you could make moves and it just seems like that window evaporates a little bit more with every race you know mistakes just cost yeah and it's pretty hard to get it back yeah

i can give you an example in 2009 i was supposed to fly i was getting into a valley and i was supposed to fly left and i went right so i was flying in the wrong direction really like for at least three or four kilometers and then i i got a message on my phone you know saying hey tom um why why are you flying this direction and i was sure i was you know i was going the right way but it was just not and and you're so tired and at the time we didn't have those apps and we were just on paper maps paper maps i was as i was just saying oh it was the first gaming gps's uh with you know very basic maps and um so we were trying to figure it out uh but it was really the beginning now you have everything on your iphone and um and it's incredible and as you say the communication system i mean even things like whatsapp to send your position on the moment or to communicate with your team or you know all the different apps that we use it's it's a game changer for sure yeah it's a lot more um a lot more easier even like uh yeah if you if you need to find uh

food or whatever for the team i mean you know um but but what's been interesting in in those years is that also no one knew about xx you know you would we were going through towns and no one would ever come and see you you don't know what new like what is he doing with his backpack you know and now um everywhere you go there are some local you know some locals that want to hike with you or show you the way or fly with you or bring you some food and stuff we get a lot more help from the locals than we used to get before we didn't get any help no one knew about itself no i mean there's a high chance if you go into a village somewhere in austria and say hey i'm doing the x-ops pretty sure that someone will they'll have your picture on their phone

as you walk up and yeah that's just yeah

yeah yeah exactly yeah okay

2011 you were uh is toma that one pretty much he was he was second i think only two people got in Chrigel and then toma and the weather was awful that was that was a tough year wasn't it

yeah the weather was was really horrible a lot of rain um and uh i i was starting to get good at hiking all day long you know i i had a i was we were starting to also understand how to train physically better so every all the athletes were getting stronger and and getting closer to to what cocoania was was doing which my toma was was doing at the time um we would hike all day in the rain so that was that was really hard yeah i remember that that year and um what i remember also it was um it was interesting because um at the end of the race i think that you're my brother was my supporter um and he didn't know anything about paragliding like he had never heard of paragliding we he was about to get married and we thought well this is this is a cool experience this is something we should do once in

broaders and and so let's do it together and uh but but i remember like we even to open my gladden on the ground you know on top of the mountain he couldn't do it like he would he would do it upside down and you know because he didn't know anything about flying so that was that was interesting um but yeah we had a really really good race um the the end of the race was really hard for me i remember because we were flying with uh with clement and we were quite in good position i think we were five and six or something like that uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh like that or seven um and we arrived in Val Thoreau um and the clouds were covering the top of the mountain uh the ridge and so we couldn't cross to the other side and fly down on the other valley where where everyone was like all the other pilots Ferdi and all those guys they were just down there so we landed on top and I decided to land on top and start to hike and um guys like I think it was Onza was was way behind us in the morning but he decided to go through a national park uh and we as because Clement is French and and I know many French pilots and stuff we said we have to go around the national park at the time it was not forbidden by the race but it was still you know a little bit on the edge and it was forbidden by the authorities and I don't know Onza took the risk and flew above us and and got into the top 10 um and then Clement took off and flew into the collectively clouds um and then i was there and i was like i just don't want to fly into the clouds and so i was sitting there and couldn't fly and then the wind got too strong to fly down and then it was the end of the race so there i was 11th instead of 10th onza just flew over me a minute before the end like it was really two minutes before the end of the race so he got into the top 10 like the very last moment and and for me at the time i was still on low budget so i was really trying to be into the top 10 because it would help to get a little bit of money to pay for the race and uh so it was it was those years you know and and then i had to walk down 2000 meters

and it was the race was done it was finished but i had no other way to go down so i walked three hours more when everyone was celebrating and stuff it was really hard but um but an amazing experience and on the first night i i went into it was i landed near the dachstein and um and on the first night i was like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die my brother couldn't find me he couldn't find me and he was i think 11 11 p.m or something and he couldn't find me he couldn't find me all the the access were closed and stuff so i just went to a house and i knocked at the door and some drunk guys opened and they were like three or four guys like hunters i think and they were totally wasted and they started to sing and you know so i'm like okay this is not gonna work thank you they gave me a little bit of food but then i found a place to crash and i i slept basically

and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and uh and I'm sure I was with Michael and we were a big group of people like between number six to 12 or something. We were all together on the takeoff in the morning and we were on the good timing. The takeoff was beautiful stuff. And then I looked at Michael and we were looking at the Tres Chimes, you know, those three big pillars, you know, those mountains.

And we were like, wow, that would be a dream to take off there, you know, but you, you have to hike maybe an hour more, but that would be something then to take off on the foot of those mountains. And so we start looking at it and it was like, let's, let's go, man. Let's just go. So we kind of discreetly, you know, we didn't say anything to the others. We kind of disappeared. And we, we started to hike fast and we arrived at the foot of those pillars. And it was funny because we were both sponsored by Volkswagen, by gradient and by peak performance at the time. So we were like dressed exactly the same. Like we had the same logos on our gliders. We had the same gliders. We had the same clothes. It's funny. And we even looked the same little bit. So we were there and we're like, okay, let's go now. And we took off and we got so lucky because the, the rest of the group was in the shadow and they couldn't get out.

And we took off and we went like skyrocket into like two cloud base directly. We flew above the Treme. The view was amazing. And then we, we flew away and we left them maybe at 80 kilometer behind. At the end of the day, we were number five, maybe number five and six. So we were really good position just because, you know, for the beauty of the, of it, you know, just because we wanted to, to see this. I really love that because we decided to do it. Not for, we could have just stayed with the other thing. Hey, we're a big group. We'll play all together and stuff, but we didn't, it was not even a better takeoff or at least it didn't look like, but it was just, we wanted to do that. And the experience was amazing. Like soaring on those big pillars and then fly out.

And we landed in Bolzano, I think this, this evening. And then we, we get out and next day we were way in front of the others. So that, that was a good move. Wow. That's a good move. Yeah.

Do you, when you're kind of reminiscing and thinking back on these, does it, does it make you think of a head space or a place you, you have found mentally that really works in this race? I mean, it seems like more, um, you know, I know one of my. My failings in the race has often been that I'm trying too hard. You know, I, I, I forget to be a hike and fly pilot and I, and I think too much about course line, but I just, you know, I get in this mode where I, I, I almost, I almost forget that I know what I'm doing. You know, that you just, you know, when you're not, in other words, I'm not in the zone. I'm not in flow. I'm, I'm fighting it. And instead of just, just letting it go and letting it work out.

Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is really, this is very interesting because that's what I've learned from fairly, you know, 30 Vance. Kelvin is a, is one of my best friend and he's, is that this kind of pilot who he takes his own decisions, you know, and he does his own thing and he works on intuition and instinct and some way it's kind of magical, but you know, it takes decisions and it works and he does things differently and it works. And you always look at him like, oh, I'm not going to do this. How did you pull that out? You know? And it's just doesn't follow the crowd, you know? And, and so I, I used to be a follower. Like I used to kind of look at the French guys that I knew better. I would, in my first race for, for sure in 2007 and 2009, I would just look at nationalities. I would say, Hey, we're in Italy.

Let's look at what Andy Frutcher is doing. You know, we are in France. Let's look at what the French guys, or we are in Germany or in Austria. I would always do like that because they knew someone who knew someone, the paragliding schools were around, you know, helping. So even some of the guys I remember Andy Frutcher once even stopped his, his life tracking in the morning so that we couldn't see his secret takeoff, you know, do things like that. We, I mean, he knows, he knows, I know, and we know he knows. And so, but, but, but it was, it was this kind of things, you know? So, but, but then I've learned from Ferdi that we, it's always better to take your own decision. And if you make a mistake, that's your own mistake. You know, and that's your problem and you cannot find any excuses.

And I feel better like this too now. And so now I, I just, I try to do my own thing, you know, and take my own lines and, and decide for myself. And even though, even with that mindset, I can see that sometimes I get influenced and most of the time it's by my team and your team, you know, they are on the ground and they want you to be fast and they think they have a better idea, which is sometimes it's true, but, but sometimes it's just true. You just, you should just do your thing, you know? And, and by doing your thing, you, you learn, maybe you make a few mistakes, but then you improve and then you can come back stronger and then you can always reflect on it. And so now this is the way I see it. I just work on, I try to get in the zone. As you say, I tried to get in the flow state. And I, and I tried to listen.

And one of my strategy now is I always say, if you want to be fast, you have to go slow is we have to think a little bit more, you know? Sometimes you want to rush into a new move. Next. You know, you're like, okay, let's, let's not lose time. Let's go, let's go, let's go. But if you take five minutes of your time to just sit, you know, and really think about what is the best option and, you know, measure a little bit, what the pros and cons, and then it makes a difference. And at the end of the day, those five little minutes that you've lost, just thinking a little bit better about the next move. It makes all difference for sure. You know, so I used to go too fast. Yeah.

It's interesting to hear you say it's often. It's been an influence by your, by your team. I, you know, we just had Aaron Duragadi out here for the X Red Rocks and after the, he just dominated, he was incredibly strong. And after the race, he and I got to spend quite a bit of time just chatting and he, he, he's had a big year and he did the huge flights in Pakistan as you did. We haven't even talked about that, but he, you know, he had a big, big year in Pakistan and he's had some really nice results. And. He was saying that, you know, for him, the X-Alps has really never gone that well. Now for most people, it would be very well. He's, you know, he was sixth and seventh and I mean, he, but, but he hasn't won and, you know, he's very competitive and he was saying that he feels like that.

One of the reasons is that he's always had people on the, on his team who have been pilots and he, this year, he's going to have a team with no pilots. He, he want, you know, he'll have a team with no pilots. He'll have a mountain guide. He'll have strong people and he'll have the supporters that he needs. But he, he wants to make, he just wants to be uninfluenced by others. And not that they're not, that it's even a bad influence. He just feels like he performs better if, if the decision-making is all his. And it's interesting to hear, you know, it's interesting for me to even contemplate an X-Alps without a pilot on my team, but it, it does make sense. I, I, I like that philosophy. And that, you know, it does

make sense. And we all know what we're doing and not only. Yeah. Yeah. And then there, there are, you know, pilots and pilots. I have, you know, some pilots in my team for next year, but, but they know, they know what they know. And they, you know, the problem is, you know, we we've been through this, you know, we, we know exactly what it is and what it feels like. And, and sometimes people would say, yeah, you should go because they're so excited, but it's dangerous or it's windy or it's not as good, or, or maybe you should just go. Just wait five minutes because it's going to get better. And I, I really try to, you know, really, um, rely on my intuition. Um, intuition, it's, it's not some sort of magic, you know, it's based on your experience. It's all the experience that you gather through the years.

And then when you get into a certain situation, you have that feeling that gut feeling that says, Hey, this is a good situation. You've been through this before, you know, or the other way around, you have a bad intuition because you've been through this. And it's last time it didn't end well. So it's experience is based on experience. And maybe I would think that you, you are the most experienced in your team because you're there and you're the athletes and you've been through those races before. And so I think to rely on someone who maybe has been flying for three or four years is super motivated. He's got lots of ideas and stuff, but maybe he doesn't have the key to, for the next move and you shouldn't pay too much attention to him. And I've done it many times in 2007. I remember. I remember this guy who told me, Hey, I'm the local champion.

I've been flying in this area for many years. I'm going to show you a takeoff. I flew at 120 kilometer triangle from here. You're going to love it. Blah, blah, blah. He took me to this place. I hiked for one hour following this guy thinking he knows everything. He's probably the guy to follow. And then I arrived on the worst takeoff I had ever seen. The wind was from the side. Uh, it was impossible to take off the surrounded by threes. And then I looked at this guy and I thought, well, I. I don't know him. I've never heard of him. I don't know who he is. Maybe it's just a friend of another athlete and he's telling me stories, you know, who knows? I mean, I, I would think that that's not the case, but, but you know, who knows, you know, and, and here you are, you've been training for it for two years and you're there.

And you follow the first guy who comes with a good idea. This is ridiculous. This, this was my mistake for sure. You know? And it happened to me many times, those guys that say, Hey, I know the way to the takeoff and then they get lost on the way. Like. Do you really know where you're going? Yeah. Yeah. I've been here before. And then you take twice as much time as the other one who was following you. So it's something that I think you should trust yourself first and then trust your team, but take your own decisions always. And I think for Aaron, this is for sure. This is a, this is true. And I think also I've talked to her on a lot about this because we were quite close friends and, and it's also like the pressure because he's won everything, you know, he's, he's, he's one of the top pilots out there. And probably top pilot. Five pilots in the world for sure. And, uh, and Aaron is, is, you know, it's got a lot of pressure.

He wants to do well in this race, you know? And, uh, and, and when he takes things easy, like, like he goes to two other races without too much pressure and doing a thing and stuff, he's the fastest. Um, and, and he takes the right decisions. Um, and I think he's going to do well this year. I'm quite confident. Like Aaron is one of the favorites. He's in a really good position. I

haven't seen him. I

haven't seen him

this physically strong. He's always strong, but he's, yeah, he's, uh, I think he's in the right headspace going into this one. It'd be, it'd be fun to watch him, which reminds me of 2013. So that was, you know, you guys had banner weather in 2013. Chrigel finished in six days, even had a tailwind, which is unheard of in the X-Alps, uh, for the first, you know, all the way to Mont Blanc. There was kind of a light easterly. I don't know if you remember that, but, uh, I wasn't in the race. At this point, I was completely. Completely addicted to it. And I remember watching you guys the first day, you know, from the Geisberg up to the Dockstein and flying down the pins gal. And I mean, I think Chrigel almost made it to Lairmoose that day, or maybe he did. Uh, but it was, and it was, it was him and Aaron going, you know, they were, they were battling out front cause they're both, you know, big time comp pilots and they were, they were going real fast.

But, uh, yeah. Tell us about 2013 and your experience. Cause I'm. The weather was incredible.

Yeah. 2013 was, was incredible. It was an amazing year. Um, for me, it was a complicated year because I went into the race with a C glider. Uh, it actually happened to me two times, no, three times in the race. So that that's interesting. I mean, I was flying with gradient as you know, and he was my sponsor and I was doing lots of other adventures with them. It was, it was a beautiful brand. They had good gliders and stuff, but they didn't like the timing was always wrong. Like it didn't work out. Like they would have a new D glider, but then we use it for one X outs and then maybe the second, another X outs. And then I arrived in 2013 and we didn't have a glider ready. Um, and so the new C glider was almost performing as well.

It was the Aspen at the time, but still you couldn't keep up with the other guys. Impossible. You know, it was the first, uh, I think it was the year where the M five came up or something. So ozone had. I had a really good glider. And, um, so for me, it was very frustrating because you're there, you are with some of the best pilots in the world, flying a C glider with you're really limited, uh, with wind and, and performances and stuff. I remember that on a day we took off with Kegel, actually, I think it was in the second day we took off from Dachstein together. And when I landed, I was three kilometer behind him and I had to go around the hill to, to go. So I was not on takeoff with him that day and I couldn't keep up. So it was, it was hard. But at the same time, I had a really good time in it. And one of my best memory of these rates, because we were flying, we were still flying a hundred K every day, really covering distance.

Um, and, and that's the first time after 2007, 2009. In 2011, that's the first time that I passed Montblanc and I started to get really close to Monaco. Um, and, uh, and on the very last day, it was incredible because I was into, I think, I don't remember exactly where I think it was 12 or 11 or it doesn't matter, but, but. But we were fighting with the police guy. Um, I don't remember his name anymore. Um, yeah, and yeah, it's such a nice guy. And so it was the last two hours of the race and he was going to be flying. So we, we came to the takeoff and took off and, um, he was, he arrived flying. He took, he went on another takeoff and basically, uh, joined me flying and I knew he had a better glider than mine.

I had no, like if he just stay. Yeah. With me, he would win because at the end it just has to speed to push the speed bar. It just had to speed to push the speed bar and he would just leave me behind. So, so I knew that he knew it also. So my only technique was I needed to find a way to, you know, get lost and try to leave him behind. So in one of those, it was, I remember it was a beautiful mountain near gap, not far from, from gap. And, um, it was very, like, it was a very sharp edge. And I was flying, turning into a terminal there. And then I would kind of play hide and seek with him, you know, like, uh, I would go behind the, the, go behind the thing and then come back. And every time I would come back, I could see he was watching me, you know, and he was turning into his own terminal, but only 200 meters away.

Like he was, he was in control for sure. He was in control and I was turning and hiding and then appearing again, hiding, appearing again. And then one of a sudden I saw, okay, now he thinks that I'm going to stay. Here and try to, you know, climbing this, in this smooth terminal. Then I push the speed bar full on and I get super close to the wall and I start racing. And when he realized that was already like maybe one kilometer in front. So I'm there in front and there's like maybe 15 minutes left or something. So I'm like, okay, I need to, I need to climb now. And so I get another terminal and he follows me and he's catching up. Of course, I mean, he's glider is flying way better than mine. He's catching up, catching up. And then I see the time there's five minutes left. Uh, I'm. One meter, one thousand meter high. That's okay. Now it's speed bar towards the goal, like towards Monaco.

So I push full speed bar. I put my arms inside my harness and I'm like, okay, now we will see what happens. And then he comes and gets closer and closer and closer. And to be honest with you, I think we were just side by side at the end of the race. Like we were together. I could even, I think even, even, even flew be in front of me, but because the life tracking had two minutes. Uh, delay, you know? I was showed 10 meters in front of him at the end of the race. And so I got the position. Yeah. Yeah. We were like just next to each other at the very last second of the race. Like we were together. And so we did a ground spiral together. We did a spiral together, like glider against glider. We landed and I jumped into his arms and we started like laughing, you know, what a finish.

It was amazing. We were, we were like super happy and it didn't really matter. Like who was first or second. It was. It was just, we had played this beautiful game for the last, like two hours and a half. Like we had really pushed ourselves in and flying at the end is so much better than being running on the road, you know? And I remember Dimitri, no, it was, uh, Emily, the Russian guy, he was running on the road. We flew over him like 10 minutes before the end also. So we all passed him. Um, but yeah, it was, it was amazing. And, and then we celebrated and, and I think, I think at the end I was maybe 12 and he was 13 or 13 and 14. I don't know. It doesn't matter. But, but, um, that was a really cool finish. We, we, we party. Super cool. That's amazing. I've never been, that

just made me think I've never been in the air at the end of the race. Yeah. But I mean, I've been on the ground or my first one, I was in Monaco, which was awesome. But the, but the other ones I've always been on the ground, that'd be cool to be in the air at the end of the race and racing. That'd be awesome. Not even in the

last race, in the last race, I was in the air also during the race. Yeah.

I had just landed. Yeah. I enjoyed that. Yeah. That was, that was, that was neat. It was a neat end for us last time, but no, I had just landed. Oh, wow. That'd be really cool. Okay. So 2015, That was cool because we

knew, but we, we were both. Yeah. 2015. Yeah. That's also an interesting year. That was your first time, right?

Yeah. That was my first, you've already done four at this point. Uh, and you're still much younger than I am, but

You did really well on your races there. I remember you did amazingly well.

2015 was good. Yeah. That was, you know, I, I I'd like to have that headspace back. Cause I know I'm a better pilot, you know, over all these years, but you know, like we were talking about earlier, I think it, it helped a lot going in being completely ignorant, you know, having no idea. I, I, I literally had no idea if I was just going to be eliminated or if I could do it. I've never, I had never been an endurance athlete, but, uh, you know, so I was, I was going in with a lot of trepidation, which allowed me to be, I think, just do stuff and have fun, you know, it's a, which, which worked a lot better, but it was, there was a lot of wind your, your buddy, we saw a lot of dropouts that year, Michael Gebhardt and, uh, Toma got really hurt. You got hurt. There was a, it was a pretty, pretty radical race.

Yeah. Yeah. But, um, yeah, it was, it was a radical race and it was mentally quite difficult. And I remember you just talked about, um, about Michael Gabato. I was there with him that day and we, we took off together and conditions were super bad. And again, we were both playing sea gliders. So we were quite limited in wind, you know, like when you have to push the speed bar on a sea glider, they just get stuck, you know? And so it was hard. And, and on one of those flights, it was very turbulent and we were flying together with Michael and one of a sudden, well, for, I don't know why, you know, he just turned around and went to land. But, uh, he went back like maybe 10 kilometers to land in town, in a town down there in the valley.

And I knew, I knew at that moment, I kind of felt that, uh, he was, uh, he was stopping the race. You know, he actually told me in the morning, yeah, I don't know why, but I don't embrace the conditions anymore. I don't feel like, uh, this is a safe for me anymore. And, um, and so I was like, yeah, well, we should just listen to, to what you feel and just stop or maybe take a day off and think about it. And, and so it is, he stopped the race. And I kept on going and, um, and I was, I was catching up with the group. Um, I made a few good moves and one morning I was with, uh, Ferdie van Schelven, um, in Bellinzona, in the area of Bellinzona. And we were number seven, I think so together. And, and we do really well when we fly as a team. So we were like excited.

We're like, okay, this is now, this is the moment for us to, to try to perform as a team, because we've been on many adventures together and know each other really well. And we were super motivated to try to keep going together during the race. And, um, we arrived on the takeoff and it was super sketchy takeoff, very steep. Uh, it was no wind, a little bit of breeze coming up, almost nothing. And what we do with 30, when we get into those places, we, we do a rock, paper, scissors, you know, to see who's going to take off first. And so we did rock, paper, scissors, and he said, okay, I'm going to go first. Um, because he knew I could help him, you know, I could, I could hold his glider and stuff. So he went down into the face a little bit and I was holding his glider and he took off perfectly. He had a bit of breeze. He took off really nice and went away.

And, um, and so I prepared and I got everything ready and because I had seen his takeoff, I thought, well, this, this is going to be easy. It looks good. Um, but I inflate my glider and for whatever reason it kind of stayed, you know, it didn't really carry me. I couldn't feel the pressure, but I felt like, okay, well, this is super steep. I'm just going to go. I'm just going to give two steps and it is, it will start to fly. But it didn't, I gave two steps and the glider kind of stayed in behind and kind of stole like entered into a deep stall. And so I hit the rock, uh, maybe four meter below and I tumbled above the rock. And then the glider got tangled into the stones or whatever. I don't know what exactly what happened, but I felt for 30 meters and my glider got tangled into rocks.

Half of my lines on the right side. Broke and the other half hopefully, uh, old. And I went back to the wall, like with my foot in front at full speed and boom, hit the wall super hard and broke my foot. And then I was sitting on a super small edge, maybe 30 centimeter edge sitting there with, with one, you know, like I've seated and looking down and I had 200 or 250 meters of steep places like, uh, yeah, I, I should that, that, I think that was just the worst. I mean, I only broke my foot, which was nothing, but in regards of what happened, I should have died. And they, my helmet was broken into, I hit the rock with my, with my helmet and the helmet was smashed.

And um, and the crazy thing, and that it's, it's quite, uh, quite crazy. And when I tell the story, people don't believe it, but I pushed the button on my in reach, you know, and I was one of those guys who really insisted at the time that everyone should have an in reach. I pushed on the SOS button on the in reach. And so the, you know, they, they called my family because they get the message and they called my mom and they called my team. They said, Hey, Tom pushed on his button. What do you think we should do? You know, we are the crisis team. And for whatever reason, my supporter this time, you know, said to them, oh, he's probably okay. He was flying with his friend, Ferdy, Ferdy still flying. Tom should be okay. So I pushed a second time.

And then my mom received the message again, and she felt that something was wrong. So she called Tarquin Cooper because she had a number, his number, and she called the organization and she said, guys, my son pushed twice on the button. He's a professional athlete. You know, he knows what he's doing. I don't, I don't think it's just push on the button by mistake. You should send someone. And so three hours later, the helicopter came with something that could have taken five minutes, you know, like, uh, they knew when they were just next door. And so, uh, I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. And they just thought that they wanted to think that everything was fine. So they just didn't check, which was crazy. So, so that was a big mistake. And in, in, in that, that was my mistake. I should have briefed my team and say, guys, if I push the button, just, just send someone, you know, just don't even think about it.

And you know, my supporter had maybe three hours of sleep night before, and he was exhausted and probably just didn't think properly. And also because what happened. And that was hard. It's, it's failed. He actually flew away and never, never saw me coming out of that, that takeoff. And he kind of felt like, okay, maybe he didn't take off or he kind of, you know, I don't know what happened exactly in his head, but he didn't know. But, but, but at the same time we were so close, like, and so in the evening I went to see him and I said, Hey, that's okay. Because he was crying. He was like, I feel so sorry. You could have died. And I, I wasn't even there to check. And I didn't even fly back. You know, 500 miles. And we had like 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15,

15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, Ferdi landed in fifth position. And I think together we could have done also a really nice flight. So, but yeah, I was super scared. And that's where you see the, that was a scary moment. And that's where you see the experience of those guys with the helicopters and the Alps. You know, they just came, they dropped someone on the line, you know, he sat next to me and then we took the glider or what was left of the glider. And then they put me a harness and then they took me out and flew me to the hospital in Belinzona. And there I was for a few days to recover.

So that was a difficult year, but yeah, that's how you learn. Belinzona is not a kind

place to you.

No, and that's a funny part of the story. It's that a year before I broke my back in Belinzona. And actually that's the same helicopter that came to get me. And they brought me into the same hospital. And so they brought me into the same hospital. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at the time... At the time I was sponsored by Salomon. So I was dressed with Salomon stuff, you know. I was with my Rebel helmets and with my hiking poles and my paraglider. And I came a year later exactly, you know, dressed pretty much the same in the same hospital, again, for a paragliding accident. But on the first accident, I broke my back and I stayed for like a week there, you know. So everyone knew me and they called me the Iron Man because I had a paragliding crash, but I was still kind of okay.

And so when I came there, like, Hey, the Iron Man is back. And I was like, Oh, come on, guys. No jokes, please. And so I knew everyone. I knew all the nurses by their names and stuff. It's a small hospital, you know. So, yeah, it was... The accident happened five kilometers away from the accident I had a year before. So it was... I had three difficult years because I had... I broke my back during the Adriatic Circle with Paul Guschlbauer where we went all around the Adriatic Sea. We covered 3,000 kilometers. We were just walking and flying. And I broke my back there and then it took a while to recover. And then we came back in spring to finish the Adriatic Circle. It was really good training for X-House. And then came to X-House and then I broke my foot.

So went again into the whole, you know, surgery and, you know, like the whole thing. And then I recovered. I started to go on expeditions again. And then I had a climbing accident and I lost a part of my finger with a big, massive stone. It fell on me. So it was like three years in a row where I had accidents, you know. I don't know if you've seen that before, but yeah. I didn't know that. A missing finger. Yeah, yeah.

I didn't know that. I was

climbing with... I was climbing with, you know him, with Sean Villanueva. You know, he's just one of the Pio Ledo. He's a Patagonia athlete. And Nicolas Fabrez, Nico. And we were climbing together, opening a new line. And I'm not a good climber. Like, I just was following them. And... Just enjoying my time in the mountains. But I had a bad feeling that morning. And I told them, hey, I don't have a really good feeling about this. And then, yeah, I was going after them. And basically, I don't know exactly what happened, but I tried to, you know, go over a big stone, big boulder. And the whole thing disconnected from the world and fell on me. It was as big as a fridge. So I almost got smashed. And yeah, yeah.

And they had just passed there a minute before. So they got lucky too. And I got lucky because I would have been below. And a minute before, I took a friend's, you know, one of those things that they put into the cracks. I took it out of that stone. But imagine if the whole thing went off with it inside. We would just have... We wouldn't be there to tell the story. So it was the third year in a row that I had an accident. And there I felt, you know, I have to think about the way I approach risk and how I manage it, you know? And that was very interesting because then I went to spend some time with the APC. So Red Bull has a... You might know we have an athlete performance center called the APC. And it's a super cool place where athletes can go and train and get advices and stuff.

And we have mental coaches. We have psychologists. We have doctors, you know, trainers and everything. And so I went there and I said, guys, I need to think about the way I approach risk. And I need some tools. You know, I need to see things differently. And it was very interesting. I think we talked about it before, maybe in the podcast last time, but it was the way you can manage risk and the way you can approach it. And he gave me a little thing that I would like to share with the pilots out there because it's interesting. He said, when you get into a situation, let's say you're getting on a takeoff in the morning, you know, there's three things you should check. One is how you feel. Like, is it a good day? You know, did you have your coffee this morning?

Did you have a good night? Is everything okay at home? You know, it's just kind of a mental relations, you know, mental check. How do you feel? Do you feel good? Then the other one is the location check. It's like, where am I, you know, and what are the conditions? Oh, the sky is dark. Maybe it's windy. It's coming from the side to take off his teeth. You know, it can be anything. Or it's beautiful and it's great and it looks like an amazing day. And what about your gear? You know, okay, I'm flying a new glider or I'm flying a glider that I know, you know, like, let's say the surrounding, everything that surrounds us. That's the second thing that you have to check. And then the third thing is the mission. What did I come for? You know, I came here to take off.

Okay, well, and then what? To fly long distance. Okay, am I prepared? Do I have enough food? Do I have all my instruments charged and stuff? And so by only doing this, you can see that you're not going to be able to fly long distance. You can see if some red lights pops up, you know, like, well, I'm actually tired. Or I just, you know, my wife just left me, which I hope is never going to be the case. But, you know, or I've never flown this glider or the wind is coming from the side, but it's just, it's just a check. It takes five minutes, but it gives you, you know, it can, you can position yourself, you know, in the reality. And you can look around and say, okay, well, I'm going to do this. Okay, well, maybe this is not a good day. Or maybe I just should take my expectations or my mission lower, lower my goals today, you know, because maybe I'm tired.

And, and by only doing this, it gives me a lot more clarity, if I can say, you know, and it's, it's super easy. It's pretty basic. You might even think, you know, but most people don't do this, you know, they arrive on takeoff and they're just on, they get on their routine and let's take off and they hurry. And. I think that's a very, very powerful tool. And, and, and it helps me to connect with my intuition. You know, it helps me to just take that moment to think and say, okay, how do I feel about this? You know, and, and if, if the intuition says, Hey, Tom, be extra careful, then I'm just going to be extra careful.

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think setting a setting, an environment for our brains to adapt, you know, if, if you, if you make that kind of a sequence. A habit, you know, you can, your, your brain, like you said, intuition, it's not magic. It is our collective experiences that we call our gut feeling, you know, and our gut feeling is something we need to get really good at listening to, because it's not, like you said, it's not wacky. It's, it's, it, it is, you know, it's, it's a combination of fear and all those things that we need to stay alive. And I think it's a, you know, when you, when you, when you're in a situation where you're, when you have that, I like that, that you've created kind of a mental framework for you to kind of jump in, assess things real quick.

You know, how do I feel, how does the sky look, how do, how do things look and, and what am I here to do? And it's, you know, sometimes that answer is, yeah, you can walk down, which is a good thing.

Exactly. And it's, and it's just about tuning in with, with yourself, you know, like be tuned and, and listen to your inner voices and stuff, you know? And, um, and, and we do when in paragliding, we, we do a lot of like, you go to paragliding school and people won't tell you about these things, you know, they'll tell you about how to take off and how to land and this and that, but they won't tell you about just let, let's just sit down and look at what, what it is and what's happening. And you know, and you can avoid so many mistakes and it happened many times that in the past where I took off and then you're in the air and then, oh, oh, the wind is quite strong. Like, I should have realized before taking off, you know? That's, that's not how it should work. So it's like, okay, we have a lot of experience, so we get ourselves into, uh, tricky conditions and we can save ourselves basically, you know, we can, we can manage.

Um, but, but, but still maybe you get into the red zone, you don't even notice, you know, and you do that a few times and then it's all about statistics. One day you're going to get hurt, you know? Um, so I think that's very interesting to say, okay, you know, just let's take a little bit of time and to reflect, um, what's, you know, and not to, you know, you know, you're going to reflect, but to analyze what's happening around us and, and just try to understand and tune in with conditions and stuff. And I do that also at the end of a flight, I try to take two minutes after landing, because most of the time you land and then you're just happy. You want to have a fresh beer and stuff, but I, I pack and then I sit down for a minute and I like, okay, how was it? Uh, what did I like? What do you have? What I didn't like, um, was it a close call or did I feel safe all the way?

Maybe I should have. Do things. Do things differently. And I tried to just do it while I'm still in it, you know, because if you, if you wait for a few days and you forget about your experience or you just get into a next flight and, and maybe you cannot get the most out of it. So it's a mind game at the end of the day, you know, and people tend to forget about this, but it's, it's just a mind game. The old thing.

Good advice. I love it. Tom, uh, 2017, I remember a lot of bad weather in 2017. We, we, uh, you and I were, we were pretty close to each other in that race for a long ways, as I recall. Um, and, uh, we had the guard at turn point, which was tough and, but yeah, I remember, I remember a lot of big weather, a lot of storms, but, um, that was the tree glove. That's that's right. It was that the, that was the tree glove here. I saw the scariest flying I'd ever seen in my life. Day two. We were, I had pulled my night pass inextricably. That was a huge mistake. And walked all night and I had gotten up to the, that pass that was heading, you know, the heading down into Austria the next morning and turn around and saw Paul and Gaspar and Ben Wah and others fly out of that Canyon and really strong North Fern conditions.

And I actually called Jorgen the safety director and said, you better get the helicopter out here. Somebody's going down. It was the sketchiest flying I'd ever seen in my life. Uh, and that was when Chrigel pulled that yet again, another incredibly magic move and got all the way down to tree glove and got out that night. That was, that was amazing to see, but yeah, I remember that. Tell us about 2017. Remember the first day? No, no one flew. I mean, that was a first in the ex-Alps and there wasn't, it wasn't, we got up to the top of the Geisberg and it was dumping rain. So we all just walked off it.

We ran down, ran down. Right.

I remember that.

That was horrible. Yeah. I remember that man, 2017 was for me, one of the worst. Um, but at the same time, it was very interesting. It was one of the worst because I was doing quite okay. But then I got a penalty time. Um, and, and there was a mistake that, um, I

mean, I was,

uh, yeah. So what happened is that I don't remember exactly. I do remember, but, um, every morning I would have, I would get a briefing from my team, you know? And they would give me the forbidden areas at the time. We didn't have so many, I should have, to be honest, it's my mistake. I should have known every area. Like now I study every forbidden area on the way and try to know all of them, but it's difficult as you know, and, and there's, there are so many. And, um, and that day we, in the morning we analyze Kegel's track and we thought, oh, this is interesting. What he did there around this mountain. I would have go straight. Why is that? We didn't, we didn't see it. Yeah.

We just looked at the app and it was a forbidden area, but the color was really dark and we didn't see it. And I didn't see it. My team didn't see it. And so it was not in my briefing. And every day I would receive a little piece of paper from my team. We've all the forbidden areas, be careful with this and that. And so I was flying and I hear the, the, the Vario beeping, like doing this alarm thing, but I'm like, oh, I must be close to something, but there is no forbidden areas because I haven't seen it. And it's not in my briefing. And I flew into it. Only by, I think five meters. And it was a, it was a zone, a military zone where the guys, the military, they train once a month, they do shooting exercises or something. So it's forbidden, but it was not like I was into a big airspace or, you know, you know, CTR

or something. It was one of

those weird causing trouble. Yeah. Yeah. No in, in, in traffic, nothing like that. But, but anyway, I went into it and the rule was really clear at the time it was 48 hours penalty. So that was really hard to take. I was doing well. I was, I was in the top 10, I think, or, and then I got, I got a call from, from the race director and said, Hey, Tom, I'm sorry, but you're going to get 48 hours penalty. So I knew that at the end of those 48 hours, I was going to be fat last, which happened. Actually, I, I took two days off, which was great. I mean, I had four days of racing or five days and then I took two days off. So we, we went into a small village. We put a camp. Like we were, we bought some food and I slept a lot and I rested and, and there was nothing I could do, you know?

And then, uh, one of the guy had also a penalty. So we, we, it was, uh, uh, Evony and, uh, he also had the penalty went into the same forbidden area than me. So we were both into that situation and we were, we were last. So we started to push ourselves like as much as we could. And we got lucky because one guy got hurt in front. And he decided not to. Yeah. And he said, Hey guys, I'm hurt, but I'm just going to sit here so you can pass in front of me. It was a Spanish. Um, if, and so you, you're not going to be disqualified. So at the time it was Evony in the back, so I was kind of safe, but then we, and for the rest of the race, we kind of, we were fighting to avoid, uh, being the last and being, you know, cut off the race.

So it was, it was really hard for me, but I could build some distance and cover some distance. And I. So at the end of the race, I was, uh, Just one before last or something like that. But I was still in the race, which was became my new, my new goal basically after I got dependent to time. But it was hard. It's hard to like to race again in a race where, you know, you can do anything. You're not going to get to the end, which was my dream. You know, um, you're not going to do anything. The ranking is going to be pretty bad. So you really have to do not, you know, just go home. Yeah. it's hard. But I couldn't go home. Like I should, you know, you have to do things with style and just play it fair play, you know, as we can say.

So I just say, okay, well, this is what it is. And my team said, sorry. I said, okay, this is how, there's nothing we can do about it. And we kept on pushing quite hard. And I was really tired at the end of that race because we really pushed. And that's where you realize that actually, because we think about, we look at the ranking and we think, well, those guys in the back, they must be lazy. But that's really not the case. I mean, you push as much as you push in the front and in the back, you know, it's crazy how fast actually it goes in the back. But sometimes you have a little bit of bad luck, bad weather, you get into the last group and then you have to fight for your life. And that's so intense. I would prefer a hundred times being somewhere in the middle so you don't have all that pressure of being cut off the race.

You know, that's super hard to be there. I had never

experienced that until my last race. You know, that was a series of weird things happened to us the first two or three days in the last race where I'd always had pretty good starts and it was uncomfortable. And I've never had to think about elimination or had to deal with that until this last one. And I was on the chopping block for the first four. I think for at least the first three eliminations. And like you said, it's a totally different kind of racing. It's very stressful. And Nick Mainens, who had always done well, he and I were battling it out. And a couple others that were, you know, really covering ground well. And it was, you know, I just kept thinking, there's no way I'm going to get eliminated from this race.

I just got to keep doing my thing. But it was really neck and neck. And then we had some bad, you know, some things happened that were, kind of out of our control, you know, people ahead that would just quit instead of, you know, just riding it out, you know, which isn't really the philosophy of the race. And it was, yeah, it was just, it was always intense. It was intense for quite a while. And then, you know, finally broke free of it, you know, day seven or day eight or something. But yeah, it's a

completely different kind of place to be. It's scary.

Yeah. And it's scary and it's intense. And you tend to take more risks too, you know, because you kind of, you have that pressure, that extra pressure. And I hated it. And, but, you know, for us, we know what the race is all about. And I've seen some of the best pilots in the back, like Martin Muller one year was really almost last and we all thought he was going to, and then the next day he flew 150K and came back into top three. And I think he finished the race in the top. So it's, it can change so fast, you know. Yeah. But we all know, that if you, if you have a little bit of bad luck or one wrong decision or, or on the other way, like if you, if you have good luck, if you're lucky and you make a good move,

it can change the whole race. And sometimes you're five minutes late, you know, in the evening and you just cannot fly down into the valley and then you lose half a day. And that happens all the time. And it's, it's hard. It's hard to take it and to just accept it and say, okay, well, tomorrow it's going to be another day and we'll try to give our best. For me, in the last race, it felt like I was always off timing. I would arrive when the wind was getting strong and then I would, I would catch up with the guys and then boom, it was whatever, for whatever reason couldn't go. Or I would arrive late in the evening on high mountain pass, not being able to fly down and have to hike down on the house at night, you know. So it was, it felt like it was just off timing all the time. And, but that's how it is, I guess, you know, that's, that's how the race works.

And for me, 2017, was a good time. It was really hard, but 2019 was probably one of my best year. I was going to say, we go to 2019, we get to see,

we get to see you come alive. That was, that was, that was your year. It was, you know, you know, all the, all these years of just slipping out of the top 10 and they're just not making Monaco. And, and 2019 was, was your year, man, you were strong that year. It just charging, you were in the top 10 in the whole race.

Yeah. But I have to be. Like, if I'm totally honest with you, it's, it's not that I was not prepared the races before, but I didn't take it so seriously. Like, and I was flying sea gliders some years and it was like, but 2019, I really decided to change, you know, the way I was doing things. I prepared with a different, like I took a team that were like really a lot more professional. If I can say, you know, we were before it was just like, okay, let's go on a cool adventure and let's push and let's try to do something. But, but my approach in 2019. Was I can say for the first time, really more professional. And I, my goal was to get to Monaco and I was really into it. And I trained like hell that year. I flew a lot. I studied the route.

And so, and I got a bit lucky, you know, in, in the flights and the flying parts. And it was a very interesting year because until three days before the end, I thought, well, if I want to make it, I need to fly 120 K per day minimum. I think I had to cover 150 a day. Straight lines. It was, it was, I thought I was not going to make it, you know? And especially when I arrived in Monteviso, that was really hard that day. I make it to Monteviso and I do, I enter into the turn point and out, and then I'm flying out and I'm going, and I received a message from a friend and from the organization and they say, Tom, you, you didn't make the turn point. And I'm like, what?

Yeah. Well, you just didn't. Didn't make the turn point. You didn't, didn't get into the cylinder. You have to go back. And so I'm, I'm there soaring on a high, like on a mountain, not far from there, like maybe three or four kilometers, but I, but the clouds are getting dark and I'm like, if I'm going back, I'm not going to be able to get out. And I'm like, are you sure? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I land and I called the organization and say, guys, are you really sure? And we talk and I knew like almost half an hour and I see pilots flying above me. And and then I, I look at the, the fly master. Yeah. And he didn't have coverage. My fly master didn't get the SIM card was not working. So what was happening is at the time when your fly master was not working, your in reach was doing the points, but of course your in reach was doing a point every 10 minutes.

So that point was out of the cylinder. And then I decided to trust myself and think, well, when the fly master will get coverage, he will send the points and they will see that I was, you know, fuck it. I'm going south. I took off again, but I had lost. An hour and a half almost. It was crazy. So I flew out and, and, and I landed at the bottom of the valley when everyone landed 20 games in front, they were in a much better position for the next day. And it was really hard for me. And so I landed there and then we realized that I did do the turn point. I, it was in, you know, clearly in. So I was like, oh man, I should have just gone. That wouldn't happen anymore because we have double instruments and we check everything so well and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

So we had to do it.

So we had to do it. So we had to do it. So we had to do it. So we had to do it.

So we had to do it.

So we had to do it. So we had to do it. So we had to do it. So we had to do it. So we had to do it. So we had to do it. So we had to do it. well and uh and i was you know really super motivated um and i and i entered into uh yeah monaco the next day what was interesting is that i arrived flying and i had a big thunderstorm in my back and i had a conversions and i was flying like everything was going up and then i saw the other guys just in front of me like the top five between i think it was six seven eight and nine they were all just just there i could see them um and i could reach them i could go and and go with them but i thought i'm not gonna make a difference if i go with them you know they're in front they'll stay in front and we're gonna be running one after the other so i'm just gonna try another line and it didn't work i i just went down didn't do much and when i landed i looked at my gps and i saw 75 kilometer to hike to get to the turn point and i start counting hours and i'm like okay i have my night pass okay at an average of seven kilometer per hour i will do it oh but i had to keep that average so i started running and i ran for 10 hours and i arrived one hour before the end of the race oh my god that was very special

holy yeah i really

had to push like the whole night the whole night after such a long race but i knew i was gonna make it like i was i was already celebrating like i knew okay 10 hours 75k

to average seven around seven per hour 7k per hour and and i knew i could do it like you know running and hiking really fast and it was downhill quite a lot at the beginning so i was really fast and and then but then it was up and down and up and down and i was like pushing pushing but i knew i i you know i had wings you know i it was it had been waiting for that moment uh all my life you know so for me it was uh i'm just gonna go for it it was very emotional like i i remember when i got up uh i cried you know so happy to be there with my team and uh to to see monaco from from that point of view and uh yeah to make it to monaco and being i was i think i was 10th or something or nine i think yeah but um it was it was beautiful really cool experience and that day coconia flew into the thunderstorm so my coconia flew into the storm strand i was just telling you about and he had to escape and so he went north he flew up to 5 000 meters and then he escaped and he went back north

flew back 40k and landed somewhere that was that was that was pretty heavy but um yeah beautiful race i really enjoyed and i think i think it was hard also in the same time because i was always between six seven you know i was really seven eight in into the race and i thought maybe i could do something maybe being six or seven or eight but i was just happy to make it to monaco and that was that was good enough for me and

in 2021 we got the big huge change of uh not going to monaco anymore which i personally was thrilled about i didn't like monaco very much but i did kind of feel for the rookies going into it because it's it's something to get there it's uh it's special to go to the sea but totally different race and you know kind of an out and back uh be around mont blanc and uh you and i didn't spend any time together like i said i was i was fighting at the back in the beginning and really had a tough few days to start off with the start off with the race but my weather experience with the race was was frequently terrifying and i'd love to hear your your perspective and and how the race went for you because as in 2019 you were you were crushing it you were really doing well

yeah what was very interesting for me is that um for the first time i had an amazing glider you know uh in 2021 so in 2019 i was flying with my first glider and i was flying with my first glider with um the wild from super but it was already four years old the glider so i flew it in 2017 also and it was a good glider in 2017 but in 2019 it was already quite uh behind the others and but in 2021 i i had um an advance an omega it was the same glider as krigel was flying and uh it was a great glider like for the first time i could really feel speed and performance and and i could feel that i was you know fighting with the others on the same you know like if you go to a formula one race with the same car as the first ones you know it's super it was very motivating for me i mean everyone had good gliders at this stage but but still it was a it was really good for me to to have one of those and um and so i was extra motivated i had been flying quite a lot and in terms of training i put a lot of hours like physically i was i was very strong i think i actually have the record that no one wants to have i am the athlete who walked uh who hiked the most in in 2021 i hiked i think 600 and yeah yeah i it i had it three times in my short career um the the record of the guy who hikes the most but um but uh at this time i think i hiked 650k um and i didn't even use my uh my night pass you know i didn't use my night pass and i was still like 40k in front of the second one or something so it was uh too much hiking but but i i felt okay but but uh but like you i um

um my my little daughter was was very young um it felt really important to come back home in in one piece i i approached race differently for that race and i always said to my partners and also my sponsors i remember the guys at advents saying hey tom tom you know just don't go over it you know like take take your take it easy no pressure do your thing you know but we want to see you in in one piece at the end and just take it easy and so that was that was great and and um from the beginning of the the race like on the first day i was great because it was my birthday actually and so um we i celebrated my birthday at the start of the race and that day i had a really good flight and i one of my best memory but that that's very personal and that doesn't mean anything but was at some stage we were in front with perdy and with krigel and some of the ones i mean everyone was around but we were in the very front um near dachstein and uh and i just kind of decided to leave the place because we were in a super shitty east side i didn't like it and i was like okay i'm not gonna risk it uh fuck this you know just if you want to fly in the east side just do your thing but i'm going you know i'm leaving so i started flying away and i'm first with ferdi together and i find a term along the way very smooth but i i get it and i start turning

because he sees me going up and we go glider against glider into this super small and shit thermal and i don't know how but he kind of loses it and i get it and so here i am like really putting distance between between krigel and i you know and really like building big big difference like and i get to cloud base and he's 500 meters below i'm like whoa and then my phone that's like everyone is sending me whatsapps yeah yeah everyone is like happy birthday tom you just uh you just left the kiggle the eagle into you know like you left him there and it was it was pure luck as you know like i i got i got into the bubble and i got lucky it was pure luck it doesn't mean anything of course we all know that but but for me it was like it was my birthday it was the start of the race i had a really good feeling and it gave me a lot of confidence i i kind of felt now you can just believe in yourself you know you just you just did this and um it was interesting and

and then we kept on going but uh that evening and then after we flew down to uh to the turn point and and for whatever reason my glide was not so good the wind was a bit shaky and and so i landed and then i didn't have time to make it to the pass and fly down the other side so i went all around and then the next day i made a small mistake and that was very interesting actually on the second day i made a mistake that was that cost me a lot actually um i i arrived on a really good take i was with um with uh ferdy uh i mean ferdy was following me and uh and laurie was with me and i'm with laurie and i arrive on a really nice takeoff it's beautiful it's nice and stuff and but then i look at the next hill and i'm like well maybe it's you know i still have half an hour to kill because it's it's too early to take off i just have time to go to the next hill and laurie says i'm gonna stay here you know it's good enough it's a good takeoff and for whatever reason i i i walk and i hike to the next hill and i sit

it's getting you know good and then i see laurie and ferdy taking off because they had breeze and their spot was probably better but i didn't have anything coming up and my takeoff was was bad and i took off and i couldn't climb and i landed at the bottom and i saw those two guys flying above me just because i wanted to you know cover half a kilometer more it was ridiculous you know but i thought okay this is going to be it's on the same ridge this is going to be good anyway just i have time to kill i'm just going to walk a little bit more i just wanted to and then they flew above me and they disappeared so i ran up to the takeoff again and i took off but i was an hour late and and then i thought like i gave i gave all i had like i flew as fast as i could and i flew quite well and i caught up with uh with ferdy and laurie i caught up with maxim you know and and we flew with max and ferdy all the way to the lake and back and so there we were

in a super good position and actually in the evening we we glided down and we left max behind we took a wrong decision and we kind of left him behind so we're like okay now i was with ferdy my my one of my best friend max pinot was behind like okay we just left max pinot behind this is it you know and so we we were pretty confident but then i i made a few mistakes the day the day after and built some distance between me and and the rest of the of the teams and and then it was really hard to catch up with him and i was like okay i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this and he was always playing catch up catch up catch up i'm trying to catch up and it just didn't work as i wanted to but but i had some amazing flights and i and really enjoyed it but the timing always felt wrong we arrived at my blonde the wind was blowing like hell you know all those guys flew the day before all around it we arrived we had to hike everything and then it was four days of hiking and there i took the right decisions you know when when we were in monterosa in the southeast of monterosa the wind was blowing super hard like really strong and i said you know what i'm just gonna take it easy and um steve bramfitt uh no first he was the uh yeah steve steve said hey tom are you sure you you don't go to take off and i'm like no man it's too strong i can see that the trees are going like crazy and stuff and he took off and he broke his knee that day um and he was quite seriously injured and then uh he was the german um i'm really bad at with names who also

right i know

it's no it's um it's uh ah maybe i don't know like really nice guys i feel so bad about not knowing his name anymore but anyway and he he also landed had a crash and broke his hand and um on the same day and i and i felt like this is it you know i took the right decision not to fly and those two guys are out of the race now so it was just i was gaining positions by only being super good at it and i was like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh super safe and just wait for basically for the others to crash which is not a good thing to do but um they they got in serious trouble and they yeah and and then the next day i flew 150k back into the group and i was really close to to to the guys in front but uh yeah it was too hard and and it was really nice and the last day of the race and for me that was one of the most beautiful finish and i i will end with this it's uh i knew about a mountain hat because i had been there for a long time and i was like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh with my brother years ago in 2011 and so i knew about that mountain hat not far from the lake area

and um and so i flew 150k that day and when i landed at the bottom i remembered okay there is this hat up there still thought i could do it on time to go to the pass and fly down but when i arrived on top it was too late it was almost nine o 'clock and i couldn't go so i walked down to the to the mountain hut and i knocked at the door and the woman opened the door and i i just said do you remember me and she said yes i do thomas right it's crazy and so i was like yeah yeah well xx she was following the xx so i think she she kind of looked at the life tracking but she remembered that we were there with my brother in 2011 and so she prepared a big piece of meat it was nine i decided to stop racing that day because it was no point of hiking down it was like i would have hiked

just come to the point where i would have land next morning so there was no point doing that so i just sat there it like had a beautiful steak um enjoy my evening sat next to the fire read a book it was the last day you know i read a book i went to sleep at 9 30 and and i had a full night in the morning i woke up at seven i had a real breakfast i walked half an hour to a really nice takeoff i waited half the morning for the wind to come up the guys were in the back but they it was hard for them to catch up you know they were quite far and then i took off and i flew the last three hours of the race just enjoying smooth conditions no wind beautiful terminals and kind of making peace with the whole situation you know like okay i didn't have the race i wanted to have but here i am i enjoyed my last evening i'm rested i'm having beautiful conditions i'm going to land next to my team i'm in one piece you know it was i was happy i was super happy and and then i landed

on the race next to the man and and that's the thing it's like that's kind of the moments that i missed you know from the previous six outs like at the time i remember we would we would sometimes all of us we will be sitting inside a mountain hut you know like maybe 10 pilots of the exhaust you know on the first days we were always and we would share you know stories and okay let's go to sleep and tomorrow is another day and but now there's a lot more pressure people want to go faster everyone's pushing you know i'm going to tell you a story that i it's so funny like we were i think it was in 2000 2009 i think we were in a mountain hut and we it was early in the morning it was like eight in the morning or something and everyone gathered there it was alex hofer myself martin miller we were like a group of of pilots maybe the top six seven everyone was there it was the second day and uh

and then we were all having a tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like

tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea and we had like tea Every one of us were drinking beer at eight in the morning, you know, and then we all start laughing. And we're like, ah, this is so good. And everyone laughs and everyone was super chill about it. But it was like, you could tell this guy came from South America, you know, and he just wanted to, you know, to be part of the whole thing, but he didn't really know how to act on it. It was so funny. And so he had a bit of beer and we all kind of shared some beer and then we went off.

We took off again and left. And, but, um, yeah, this is those moments I, I, I cherish the most, you know, with the, the, um, the feeling that you, the friends you make on the way, you know, the people you spend time with, the other athletes you, you spend time with, you go through very difficult times together. You support each other. Um, you take care of each other. When you see someone going into a cloud, you try to, and, and I really love the spirit and I think it's still there. And I think it's, it's our responsibility also to keep it alive, you know, to keep this spirit alive and to help each other. To share information and stuff. And you, you, I know you are in this, in this team too. Like we, we've always been sharing everything we know and then the best will win. You know, this is how I see things, you know, like we share everything and all the information is out there and then the best will win, you know, but, but not everyone thinks like that, you know, I've had some experiences and

it's okay, you know. For the most part though, you're right. And I, you know, the hardest, one of the hardest decisions about not doing it was just missing out on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, As someone who's done the race, you know, we, we know that there's, there's a whole lot of special things, right? There's a lot of things that go and it's the training and the team. And, you know, for me, it's the, the, the places that you get both mentally and physically that you, you would never get just touring the Alps and flying. You, you, you get to these very special places that are, you know, for me are going to be really hard to miss, but, but a lot of it is just the, the camaraderie and the, the the getting to know people like you and all the other teams and athletes.

And it's a very intense 12 days that leaves its mark. And a lot of my trepidation with not doing it because it was a hard decision to not do another one. And there's all the obvious stuff, the training and the time and the money and all the things that are always tough. But a lot of it's just missing you guys, just not being a part of something so special. Ferdy's quite inspirational to me because he took 2019, I believe, off. Was it 2019 or 2017? I can't remember. But he always does well. But he took the year off and then he came back. And I'm kind of hoping that he'll...

He'll come back because he's not doing this one too. I'm hoping he'll come back again. We hope you will come back.

We will hope you will come back. I'm thinking about it. Yeah, you should. You should.

You will be back, I'm sure. I mean, this is the cool thing about it. It's like you can always come back.

Yeah. No, it's a really special family.

I'm excited, so excited to watch you guys throw down again. And Tom, thanks for sharing these. Wonderful stories. My face is tired. I've been smiling so hard. But I appreciate it. No, thank you for

having me, man. It's the... I can see the time running. I'm like, okay, we talk too much. It's because I cannot stop talking. I'm sorry. No, it's great. It's been a blast. Thank you so much for having me and for spreading the word and sharing with everyone else. I think it's always good to share our knowledge. And the cool thing is that the X-SALTS will always be there. I think that there's a young generation coming behind us with really super motivated athletes and really professional approaches and stuff. And we will see a lot more of those cool adventures. And also, there are new races like the X-FROX and races like new events and appearing here and there.

And that's so cool to see that the whole world of... And I think it's really exciting to see that it's really taking the sport to a wonderful

place. It's exciting to kind of... I think of it as kind of the new frontier, but it's super exciting. It's been really exciting to watch you over the years. And man, stick with it. I'm glad you're in it again. And thanks, Tom. I appreciate it.

Well, thank you so much. And we talk very soon then. All the best to you.

Thanks, Tom.

Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Tom.

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