Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloudbase Mayhem. I have just returned from the Red Rocks wide open and amazing event. Super fun. The weather threw us some pretty serious curveballs with the hurricane, which is kind of unheard of off the coast of Southern California. So we had some down days. And one of the days we put together a panel, an open panel for everybody to just come and learn and soak up the knowledge. We had five panels. and I added it up between the five of them there was 119 years of experience, so it was kind of stated as a as a panel on competition flying and tactics and strategy, which we got into a lot of, but they also talked about gust fronts and what to do in in those kind of situations, and it went all over the place.
Uh, this was in an open park, it was outdoors, and so the sound is tricky Tricky at times, of course, because there was cars driving by and it was raining, but Miles has done his usual magic, and you can definitely hear the panelists really well because I had all kinds of microphones on them, but it's a little hard sometimes to hear the questions, but the answers make it pretty obvious what people were asking. So on the panel was Evan Bouchier, who was actually the least experienced at 14 years, although he's got a ton of experience. He chases it really hard, and he's done incredibly well lately on the World Cup scene. A couple top five finishes, including a fifth in Macedonia and third in China. This, this last year, he'll be in the Superfinal here in a couple months down in Mexico.
Uh, Matt Beechinor, who's my neighbor and you've seen a lot in the book, and a mentor to me for ages and ages. He's been flying almost 30 years, Bill Belcourt, 33 years, Josh Cone, 33 years, and my ex-alps supporter and and weather guru, Rev. Seth McGray, who's been flying for 15 years and hosted the most magical party I've ever seen in my life the last night of this thing. So if any of you are listening to this and want to come over to a U.S. comp and not only get some really good flying, but get to see that magic, wow, what a special party. So here you go. Amazing stuff. tons of great knowledge and insights from some of our most veteran pilots in the sport.
Enjoy. Okay,
so just so you all know, it does get worse than this. At the World Cup in 2012 in Sun Valley, we had some pretty cool tasks and then we had a seven-day open distance competition after that and we didn't fly one day. It was too windy and And, but it was all kind of salvaged by, I was kind of a newbie back then. And it was all salvaged by these guys, Bill and Farmer and Nick and Russ Ogden. Some of you may have seen the video that Russ did on two liners, but they all dedicated their time each day to giving these amazing talks. And if you read the book, this isn't what it said, But it was really kind of some of the inspiration behind what turned into the Cloudbase Mayhem was, you know, I had read every book that I'd gotten from farmer because he has them all, and I read every magazine and and then suddenly these guys would talk for an hour and just all this stuff I'd never heard about.
So, uh, that's kind of what this is, is just to let you all ask these guys, I just added it up up.
Between our five panelists, we have 119 years of experience. And Bill wasn't even the winner there. Bill and Josh are both 33. And the weak point was Evan at 14. So we got a lot of hours here and a lot of comps under all these guys' belts. And so I'll fire off the first question, and then you guys can just let him have it. Um, Evan, you've had a lot of success in the... Evan was third in last year's World Cup in China. He was fifth in Macedonia, which had really Superfinal level, uh, pilots in it. Was pretty competitive seven days, and, uh, so I wanted to just ask you, where did the code kind of crack for you?
And, and what do you, what do you credit it to? You know, what it seems like, there's kind of a system, and you've, you've put it together and figure it out. And can everybody hear in the back? Is that does this work cool, um?
Well, I'd love to say that I cracked the code, but it's, uh, it's always changing and evolving, so that'd be too much of a claim to make, um, but I feel like going into China basically was where I had the best headspace and resulted in my best result yet. And honestly, I think the, probably the key was down downshifting more than I ever had in my life up until then. All the World Cups that I've been in, I was always full throttle, always trying to attack, always trying to like, like leave whatever group I was in and catch another group, just always full throttle. And that was the first time I learned to just downshift and find the appropriate gear, and as a result of that, instead of like I was finding this situation over and over again where I'd be in 80th place in the World Cup with a group of 20 pilots and I try to burn away from them, only to like not realizing that I was surrounded by amazing pilots and I'd go and get stuck somewhere and all eight, all of them would fly over my head, and and then I'd fall back a group and then I'd try to burn away from them and they'd all fly over my head because I was stuck somewhere and I'd fall back another group.
So really realizing that the appropriate gear isn't like full throttle all the time. It's like each scenario requires a different gear, and often that's downshifting and being more aware of the situation and staying in a downshift of gear for a while until there's actually an opportunity where going full throttle makes sense and you can do something with it, and then using that to your advantage. I think that's really been the key break for me. I used to, in races, my pulleys would be locked pulley over pulley all the time. Now I'm really finding I'm pulley over pulley like 10, 15 % of the time. It's like picking when to do it is way more important than how hard you're doing it.
So I'd say it's really been downshifting and searching for the appropriate year for the situation and then more awareness kind of tied into that.
Thanks. Fire away.
That was easy. Just pizza.
That means you all. Let's elaborate on that a little bit. What is it that helps you understand what year you should be in an interview?
I mean, some of it's just the pure fundamentals like McCready or whatever. If it's a boom and day, then you're hammering a lot harder. If there's a big cloud in front of you, you're riding a lot harder. If there's someone marking a climb, then you're attacking. If there's more uncertainty in the situation, then recognizing that and downshifting a little bit. If you're with a group of really good pilots, recognizing that you're with a group of really good pilots and not trying to pull away from them, but instead match their gear. I found China was the first time where I really locked into that experience of like being in a lead group and everyone being in an uncertain situation, and everyone just downshifted and fanned out, and no one was like
Dive and run away from the group. Everyone was just fanning out and working as a group, and and not lining up behind each other, staying wide, and and then using that to like to pull the whole group forward. So, and I mean, and then also knowing where you are in the course line and and being honest with yourself around what you're trying to accomplish on a given day. Like, a lot of times in World Cups, I'm aiming for like top 15 or top 20 on a given day, and so I'm trying to make moves that are optimized around around that. And so, you know, like, um, so if that that often means like staying shifted down and and being more patient and then attacking only kind of right at the very end, I
Think the gears are a really good analogy, and I would say that it's more than first through fifth. With the gears, it also includes park and reverse. Um, it's hard—so hard. Park and reverse are super hard, but sometimes a course shades out or something happens with the weather on course line, and if you keep going on course lines, you're gonna just go land. So sometimes you got to put it in park and wait for things to pop in front of you again. And the most painful one is throwing it in reverse and going backwards on the course line to go completely around an area, and those days are huge separators, and what can really make the difference between winning a contest and and and doing mediocre, you know, because those days, uh, when just a few people filter into goal because you were smart enough to kind of stay in the game and find your way around a situation, or can be really critical, absolutely.
and it like reverse or a 90 to the side too, can make a big difference because climbing speed is how you win races. And if there's a big climb over there and you hang a right and slow down, it's basically parked to go find a climb. Then all of a sudden, you're moving as fast as fast as you possibly can, or even like flying backwards, flying a kilometer backwards in a big car is incredibly painful, but climbing speed is
everything. How much are you guys trying for leading clients at FCB? Is that way faster than the individual clients?
Josh?
I
think it's, well, it depends on, like some comps have it worth twice as much as others, so I guess you should probably pay a little bit more attention to it in those, but for the most part it's a nice-to-have sort of thing.
Are
you not changing your strategy in the future?
No. I mean, I think it's nice to not always be hanging back and also just, I guess, to be aware that sometimes when there might be two different routes to take and if you have to To divert early on for one route, that's going to lose you leading points because you're not making progress toward goal originally, which is sort of a flaw in the leading points one though, but that's what it is.
Because it's optimized along the course line. Optimized course line, yeah.
What are the key indicators for when you leave the final glide?
I
mean, it depends how much headwind or sand or whatever you expect. on a day like a few days ago when I was expecting sort of a crosswind, I guess, and I think I waited until like 6 or 7 to 1.
If there's a tailwind and it seems lifty, then I'm going to leave with 12 to 1 or something.
Oh, sorry. Yeah, I was saying it just depends on what you expect in terms of headwind, tailwind, lift or sink.
And so, like, the the task we had a few days ago, I think I waited until like a six to one because I was expecting some crosswind, headwind, and yeah, ended up coming over 2,000 over, but I didn't quite make it, yeah.
And I left at, I think I started at an eight to one. It had gone to a five and a half to one, and I almost didn't make it, um, because it was just a really bad glove. So you try to be conservative because you really want to make it, um, but you don't know what you don't know as far as how good the glide is going to be along the way. So give yourself some margin, so you have a high percentage chance of making it, um, and uh, be willing to sacrifice a few spots if you really want to make sure you get there every time. Because coming up short sucks.
On some of the instruments you can put in a safety altitude so it'll give you the calculation basically to whatever that height is above goal, which I find kind of helpful because you know, 100 meters or whatever, you can easily lose that much with some unlucky sink or whatever. But you do have more information about what lies ahead than your instrument does, so it's always good to factor that in as well. And you can be less conservative if you expect climbs in front; you can go thinking, "I probably can make this, but if it's not working out, I can slow down or stop." And climb if you think you're not gonna be able to climb, you better have out in the bag all
things being equal do you guys have distinct sort of strategies or mindsets at different phases of the race or are you here always depending on just the situation.
I mean, I heard the advice with waiting for the start to up until 10-15 minutes before the start or so, just just chill and go find your own climbs and relax. And then, for that last little bit, you have to kind of fight for position, and then at some point, when it when it comes time, you think you can go and fall and glide. Then you've got to be be really, you know, ready for that, that moment, and in between, it's a little more low-key. I guess like specifically what about the sort of you know that 10 minutes before start up until sort of the first climb after the first glide that seems like that's where where the field really gets differentiated, like a lot happens, it sort of sets you in the bait.
It doesn't, yeah, it doesn't always help to be in the, in the lead right after the start.
Yeah, with them, not leading them is a good position to be in the start, it seems like, at least with the group. I mean, you see a lot of separation right out of the gates, first couple of climbs, first couple of glides, because if you're not with them, if you're a thousand feet below them, Yeah, people are going to leave you in a hurry, um, so getting into a really good position in the start and then trying to hang with that group, um, and I would say be a part of and be useful to that group, um, as you're moving through the course, you can stay with them, uh, but they can get you pretty quick if, if you don't get a good start, I'm
Usually, just trying to relax that part of the race, like it's so intense being in the gaggle right before the start. For that first few minutes of decompression, I'm just breathing, and you're always trying to be on top and in front, or close to the front. But start opens and you've got what you got, and so then you're just trying to like open your eyes and see, you know, if you're up ahead and out front, then you've got a distinct advantage. But if you're behind, there's always an advantage too, because you got out a lot more information to work with. So I'm always just trying to relax, open my eyes, see what the situation is, and what I have to work with. Do
you guys have a strategy to keep track of people behind you when you are in front so that they don't they catch a climb and you miss it there's one spot?
I look over my shoulder a ton if I'm ever in the front or I'm always looking over my shoulder just because you hate to glide away from something good that's happening behind you but But at some point, you kind of commit, and there's nothing you can do.
People can get something behind you. Sort
of that same
thing, like, we all make mistakes
when we fly, right? And, like, do you find, and sort of open question, do you guys find that you recognize the animal as a mistake in flight, or is it one of those things, like, it happened, pass it on,
on to the next thing, is one of the strategies to deal with that?
Yeah, be a goldfish.
Yeah, I mean, if you're sitting there dwelling on a mistake that you just made during a flight, you're not doing yourself any favors. And I really feel like you got to just fly in the moment and forget whatever small mistake just happened. You need to yell on your helmet for a minute, yell on your helmet for a minute, but that's all it should last, and then move on and take the opportunities in front of you. Otherwise, you're just going to keep blowing your day. That's how I feel about it. And also, sometimes you just have to believe that it's possible to come back from a setback because it is. Yeah, because you often can, yeah.
or even use it to your advantage. Yeah, there's more information available oftentimes.
the lead group, at least at this level of contest, I would say this is less true as you work into a really high level of contest, but the The lead group isn't necessarily flying at full speed all the time throughout the whole course line. Since they're proving what the course line is, they're not hammering as hard, and there's opportunity for the chase group to catch them as a result.
I
find that to be true a lot of times where it's more like three-quarter or half-bar sometimes when that lead group. And sometimes even at high-level comps, the lead group will be hammering and then get stuck because they didn't read the course line appropriately and got a little too low, put themselves in a spot with some shade. Then you made them be able to fly over their heads.
Here's your guys' musings on sort of the differences in how you approach race flying versus XC, and then at what point those two skill sets either deviate or do they deviate?
I mean, I found I had to really switch my mindset when I was trying to do long XCs in Brazil; that I was just racing too much and racing into the ground. So, it seemed like once I finally just had the mindset to just try to stay in the air all day, I did better. I'd
like to hear Bill's mindset for cross country paragliding, just go
really deep, and then cry for the rest of the day. Not the long, because that's how it feels. So you're, you know, when you're, uh, flying the long XC, it's, it's a long day, you know? It's going to be eight plus hours. Um, you know, you go through a lot of ups and downs throughout the day. It's like, I don't know, some kind of, um, a long distance run without the work. But there's moments you feel like you're in a really good position, and then there's moments you feel like, you know, you're not.
And you're trying to fly the optimized line of the sky, which is going to take you a lot of places in the terrain that maybe you wouldn't you Wouldn't want to go because there isn't a lot of roads, but still, if you want to maximize the day, you gotta fly sky. So, uh, so I'm, and I'm on speed pretty much all the time, um, but hardly ever full speed unless I'm trying to escape a cloud or something. Um, because you, you still, you're going downwind lots of times unless you're flying a triangle, and then maybe it's a little different. And so you don't need to be hammering it, and you know that getting low is not efficient in terms of making, you know, making caves, and so you try not to get low, but you also try not to waste a bunch of time and broken lips screwing around because you're afraid you're going to get low, so you
Do your best, but inevitably a couple times a day you're going to get low, and then hopefully you're low in a good spot, you know? And that is a good spot to climb up, and then usually it works out. But being low isn't fast, and so you do your best to fly the, you know, the middle to the top of the sky, and and um, and that opposed to racing, um, you just don't have anybody with you on those cross countries, and so, uh, there's a limited amount of information that you have, um, which is, you know, the bad part, but there's also no one goading you to go faster, which is the good part.
And that's the problem with racing is, um, there's always someone around ahead of you, or there's always a group higher, or there's always, you know, somebody going faster on, and then you know, if you get into racing, everybody around you without being strategic about it, you know, you just end up low or end up on the dirt where you wouldn't have normally done that if it was a cross country flight. Because if you compared it to, you know, if you run any kind of road races, it's like, you know, know how fast you can be for like a half marathon or whatnot, but when you're in the start group, you find yourself, you know, at a heart rate way higher than you would have normally, um, been optimized for a race of that distance, just because, you know, it's a group of people, there's some people going faster, you know, there's some adrenaline, you feel like you can go faster, and then you come out hot lot for the first, you know, um, five miles.
And then, um, maybe for the last third of the race, you fade because you just came out too fast. And so the same, you know, you get the same tendencies when you're racing paragliders is you just start racing, um, instead of flying your own flight, uh, in cross country, you're flying your own flight. So, uh, so you, you know, You have to sort of manage your mindset, which is easier said than done, uh, and um, and to switch gears from flying cross country to racing, you know, can't be done just like that, um, but at the same time, the reason you do comps is to fly faster and more efficient, which makes you a better cross country pilot.
And so, cross training between cross country and racing is a good way to, um, to sort of realize your potential as a pilot. And so, you know, even though I fly more cross country this these days than race, I still like to go to a couple of races just to try to remind myself how to be faster because I know I can use that in cross country flying.
And maybe on the other side of that coin, if someone only does competitions and they're only flying with groups, they might not know what to do if they find themselves out on their own during a task. And just to add to something you said about getting low in a good spot, I find it's really helpful if you have a choice. If you're getting low and you have a choice of different places to try to get up, If you can find a decent trigger that's right near a nice landing zone, then you can just work it and work it and not worry about the landing part; and that, often having that bit of less stress, often makes it work a lot better. That's great, and
Then you guys talk about, I know that probably all of you have done some nice cross country flights where you manage the team fly, and I haven't done a ton of that, and it's always difficult to determine, you know, when are you really just lining up and sticking right with your guys? When are you waiting for them? When are you deciding not to wait? When are you spreading out? Any team that you possibly can find in fact that you know? With groups? Yeah, well, like, you know, with groups
like small groups, you
know, which is just different
than racing. I
would say that the top priority is making it a top priority. If you, you don't have to set the intention and talk about the fact that's what you want to do, it's not going to happen. You can look at what the Brazilians have done; they've really fine-tuned specific protocols for how, how to determine when to wait for someone and who leaves a climb. But I haven't found any people in the states that want to do that kind of team flying. But if you talk about it and make a plan, that's the first thing. And then, personally, I would say also live tracking makes it so much easier than it used to be. If you're running cell-based live tracking on your phone, or maybe you have instruments that can show you the position your buddies, when you do get separated, because especially in places like this where they're strong climbs and strong sink, and minor differences in line can lead to huge separation, seeing exactly where the person you want to be flying with is really helps you get back to them and join back up and make the team happen again.
So I think communication, live tracking, and just saying it's what you want to do and finding like-minded people who also want to do it is the real key there.
It's hard to do, especially for Americans.
This is a country where I would be at a level. A team flying or flying
at the same time? Oh, competition flying. Everybody
in this crowd is what I would argue. Because in Europe, they have really, really good talent deep in the field. And that makes those top guys have to fight for it that much more. And the more our whole community can come up, the more the top people that are amongst us will be elevated, elevated, and will be on a higher level when they go to world competitions. So I'd argue that it's our community that's going to elevate everybody, but
to go back. One thing is, what's the intention of t-flat? What's it sound like? Because I've said
At times like, okay, when we t-flat it, we're going to win together. We just bomb out, with both bombing out. What's like the intention I
Think, I think Brevis left one piece out, and that's—you have to sacrifice too. Like, you work together, you've got cohesion, but you also have to like, go backwards, go down. You've got a sweet move in front of you, but your buddy doesn't have it. You have to just wait, and it sucks when you're doing it, but you—you make that sacrifice so that two moves later, you're both doing a crossing together and you can cover a lot more area. Yeah,
It's really good to keep that in mind when you're—when it feels like you're making a sacrifice, because in the end result, if you do fly as a team, it won't be a sacrifice because you'll have the other pilot or pilots there with you, finding the climbs more quickly, finding the efficient lines to glide more quickly. But it is hard to wrap your head around that at first, when you're like, "I'm a cloud base," and you're stuck down there. But it is worth it to wait as long as the person is climbing and
To Cedar's Point, like Americans, and kind of I think we kind of suck at it more than some other places. Like, we're very Wild West. There's an ethos here of like, I got something and I don't care what's going on behind me; like, I'm going, going with everything I've got. And we race, we kind of race that way too. We fly cross country that way. I think it's born of like the fact that all of you guys, everyone here, flies in a site where there's like five other pilots and there's a million miles of open distance. Like, the way reason you found your way there in the first place is because you're super independent, and so to then like come and develop cohesion with a group and make sacrifices, you can all work together hard. We're just not wired that way at all. It's like a very different mentality, and it does reflect when we go to competitions and world competitions.
We're racing against the French kids who have been training together in a small pack for years, 30 of them, and they just annihilate us. And they're like actively working together as a team. They'll make sacrifices as a team. They'll throw a rabbit out, like on individual days, their coach will be like, "You're the rabbit," and someone will attack and pull a bunch of people with them, and the rest of the team will ride that wave, things like this. So there's just more built into that mentality, whereas we're all just so wild west and it's hard for us to want to, like, shift gears and, like, group up like that. It's really hard. And I would also say that the pilots need to be of equal ability on the same gliders, similar gliders, Uh, and uh, know what team flying is?
And so, team flying is not parking yourself behind the guy in front where he can't even see you, um, and then making the guy in front, or whoever it is, make all the decisions. Uh, and you know, if those decisions work, you're in back, you're going to take advantage of those; if they don't work, you're going to try something else. And so that is one—one-sided. It doesn't work, or if you're, um, you know, you're not comfortable on speedball and so the rest of the crew is hammering, and then you're perpetually behind because you're not pushing as much speed. Um, you know, that gets old, you know, because everybody's going to have to wait for it. You know, if on every glide, when you hit the next climb, you turn around and the person you're supposed to team fly with is a K back, um, how many times you're going to do that before you've decided it doesn't work?
And so, if you're going to say team fly, you've gotta, you know, um, you gotta be an equal contributor on the team for it ultimately to pay off. Otherwise, um, you're, you're—they're just asking people to fly with you, which is not team flying.
The
One thing I'd say is kind of an exception to that rule is if you're planning to fly a triangle, and you have maybe a couple groups where you have people at one level and people at a slightly lower level are flying slower gliders, it is possible to coordinate flying a big triangle and a smaller triangle where some of the legs are shared. So if you don't have the people who are at exactly your level flying the same kind of glider, but you get weather to fly a triangle, you may still be able to approximate team flying by joining up for the legs and then the faster gliders or faster pilots can just stretch out the turn points a little farther.
Keep in mind too that they're going to have, the Brazilians have worked at this for a long time. They've got really strict rules of how it all works, and they practiced it when Cody and I were down in Texas. There's a... there's a... it's a... it takes a lot of practice. It's a lot of work. I mean, like somebody said, it's just having the intentions, not enough. That's just the start; you've got to have the rules.
and And then when you've
got to really work at it, it's a system.
Is there any way to have a team-scored X-Contest thing?
Nothing I'm aware of right now.
Someone do
it.
But, you know, if you want to do well in X-Contest, doing it with a team is a good way. Yeah. We're
not in terms of flying in Utah or these places where you get storm clouds.
You know, it's like determining when, I know I was talking to Cody about this, like, when is it, what are those factors in the sky that's like, all right, we keep going, and the factors are like, we need to, like, this is getting dangerous.
It's, that's always a tough call, because the marginal, The days on the margins can produce really good flights as long as they don't cross the line and become dangerous, which often they don't. Sometimes they, they do. That's why they're on the margins; no one can call it one way or the other. And then, you know, those days tend to have more cloud, but tend to have that cloud be closer to over-development, uh, and then it's just a matter of scale, um, as to how tall they get and and how hard they drop. And any kind of indications that you can get of that in the course of the day, you know, can determine whether you land or continue.
And so, you know, the important thing is is not to to want it so bad that you're unwilling to end the flight until you're in the gust front. And it's happened to me a couple, three times, and it's not pleasant to get caught in the gust front and not recommended and certainly not worth it. So it's hard to say specifically
how you make the call, because every day is different. But I'm always looking for dust. And fortunately in the West, you can see a long ways. And so if there's big stuff in the distance that is sort of, we would say a bit of a prototype for what might be happening near you, if that stuff explodes, chances are the stuff near you may explode and so it might be a good idea to land but there's been days where I've been you know and this this was maybe a
longer time ago than how I look at it now is, I was landing prematurely too many times because I thought it was going to go bad, and it just didn't go bad, and so... but eventually, I feel like I, I got a good feel for it, but um...
Everybody nowadays gets, you know, gets good at flying the gliders fast, but um, to get 10 years of flying experience, it still takes 10 years. But you can learn how to fly the gliders really well in a much shorter time than that. But the opportunity to fly year after year and experience, you know, all those different conditions and all those seasons and all those places in the world over all of those years, you can't really get that in any compressed manner. Even though the weather data is really good now, you know, I was joking with Owen earlier about, you know, back when Josh and I started flying, you could call 1-800-WX-BREATHE and you could get the winds, you know, and that's all you could get.
You know, there was no internet, you know, there was no cell phones, you know, just getting on the phone and calling for the winds was all the weather information you had other than watching the news. I
had a
little NOAA weather radio, you know, you could just play the NOAA recording and that was all the information you had. And so it was, it was hard to figure out like what you could do and when you could do it. Now you can do it much more easily, but at the same time, that only gets you so far, really. It's the experience of flying year after year where you know you get a better feel for where the line is between reasonable and unreasonable. But, you know, as Spinal Tap once said, there's a fine line between clever and stupid, and you know, you can't tell yourself that enough. You
Need to get good at predicting the weather in the next hour or so, and you can sort of check, check how your predictions are doing, like if you're finding that you're, you know, managing to always land an hour, 45 minutes, or whatever before a dust front rolls through, that's seems like sort of a reasonable margin to me, although you might have different opinions on that, but I think just that, that kind of thought process is helpful, like making predictions and checking how accurate the predictions are, because that's what's going to keep you safe and keep you having some margin
I've interviewed you guys for some forecasting and helping yourself be able to identify those final nuances, or like look at the good days that you've had, and I don't—I'd imagine whether that is stored somewhere, but I don't really take that and then look back and you might pull up my best 50 tracks in Colorado. I don't know if it's stored somewhere where I can look at it, but look back and think, oh, this is what the pressure is. This is what the moisture is. And then kind of use that as a guide.
Yeah, it's hard to dig up the historical weather data. There are some services, and the National Weather Service does have archives, but it's in a pretty cryptic format, so it's not easy to access and process. I don't know how many years they have publicly available at this point. The University of Wyoming has soundings available that you can look up and every day you can get like a CT
that does go back years.
Arrow 5 does, that came up as well, that's a era-based, it's like, it's a European model, you know, it only goes to about, I think, 34 minutes of finishing, but it goes back at least 30 years.
It's easier to do it the day after, obviously. the part that we
just kind of glossed over was like the willingness to land before you absolutely. It's like, I look at you guys and I'm like, "Yeah, we got it," and I look at you guys and I'm like, "Ah, seven hours into the flight, I'm physically like I'm going to kill myself trying." You know, I want to jump in on this one.
I've flown with you and seen you do some shit I thought was fucking on the fucking line line man or over
the line, and you got away with it. You know, I don't know, I
Was thinking of one particular flight in the desert a couple years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I can tell that story. It's a good story. Uh, I was flying with Bill and he got on the radio and said, "Uh, yeah, I'm seeing dust, looks like a gust front." And I thought maybe it was just some jeeps kicking up dust down there. I kept going and I got, um, into beautiful two meters a second lift over the book clips and I was just going up slowly and watching 60 mile an hour winds down there rip. Bill was safely on the ground and I was like, uh, pretty scared, and but nothing happened. I just like got away with it. He's told the story better before where it was like an apocalypse, apocalypse, because this whole line went, it was spectacular.
Yeah, I mean, it was probably like a 25 mile dust trail, and it was shooting down past Green River, but I was over the book cliffs just going like, "Beep, beep, beep," and beautiful smooth lift. So, if you can get on the right side of the
I flew further than Bill that day.
The moral of the story, he flew further and he landed in almost no wind and it was just fine. Yeah. It was really dumb. Did it occur to you to think that, my gosh, those are some really big jeeps?
I mean, I quickly realized it wasn't too late, but it is the, you know, if you're, you know, if, if you get caught, it's the way to deal with it, you know, because
Just, yeah, you just have to stay up.
until the winds dissipate on the ground, because the gusts weren't so... I'm gonna last for so long if you're trying to get down in the midst of the gust front. That's the most dangerous thing, and so, um, you either land before it or you ride it out. So, you know, I landed just before it, and he rode it out, and both had a good result. So, um, two different approaches, uh, but, but I would recommend to you just, you know, land if you can, and if you can't, ride it out. So both can have a good result, and, and avoid terrain that would channel the the gas run. Yeah, I was over the book cliffs, and I was like, "Man, if this like somehow starts dropping out like, or somehow starts coming down on me," I was like thinking maybe I would land on top of the book cliffs and then think about my decision-making processes, but I was like
But I was, I was holding the high terrain. I was watching the gust front go the other way, and I was like, seemed like it was going to be okay, but you know, wasn't it? Was really scary, and not
Will not do that again.
And that's something that helps me decide, like, "Oh, should I keep going or should I not?" I'm trying to do flights that
make me feel good, like even after I land, I think like, man, I didn't just get away with something, but like I
That was good with good conditions. That was an appropriate thing to do, and I've definitely
done some flights where from that healthy condition where stuff's falling out and get away from it but afterwards it's like that doesn't feel good it doesn't make Yeah,
and I would always remember these are extreme sports in nature and you can only predict so much. You're only going to be able to mitigate so much risk. And if you're trying to sort of realize your own potential or do something that hasn't been done before on marginal days, you're going to be taking some chances. Uh, and you know, just know that going in, um, and ask yourself, you know, if you're okay with that. So, uh, because there's only so much control you have over, um, what happens out there in these big mountains with the strong lift on these, you know, pieces of tent fabric and kite string, uh, and so, um, it's amazing what can be done, um, considering, uh, what we have to work with.
You know, it's just like alchemism; it's doing the most with the least. But, you know, this is aviation instead of climbing, uh, and, um, and Because of, uh, what you're able to do with what you have to work with, you know, it makes it that much more special. But at the same time, there's not a lot of margin, and there's only so much you could know, certainly across like a hundred-mile-plus flight. You're gonna experience a lot of different terrain, a lot of different conditions along that course line, and you're gonna have to manage it all. But never think that, you know, you're fully in control of all of it, because you're not.
And so, give yourself, give yourself some margin.
and and also try to anticipate like, if you're in a situation where the wind is picking up, you don't want to wait until it's picked up to where it's going to be really scary to land. See, when I see that trend and anticipated and land before or it's actually bad
yes
I
wouldn't
Say it's really changed at all other than you have more information to make the decision, you know, if you're gonna fly, where you're going to fly, what you're going to fly, um, and that's that's great. Um, I wouldn't say, um, the style of, you know, the style of which I fly has changed at all; it's just you have more information in order to make a good choice, do
you fly the same number of good days now this year, um...
Yeah, if I'm not working, um, so you're, uh, you know, usually you're picking, if you got a family and a job, you know, you're trying to use your free time as strategically as you can. So you, you're picking the best days. Um, you're, uh, you're maybe not, uh, just going evening flying for fun just because you have other obligations. And so your big game hunting, for lack of a better term, or big wave surfing, for lack of a better term, and so you're sort of focused on trying to make sure you can get as many of the good days as you can.
You're never going to get them all, and then try not to burn your kitchen passes or free time on, on just evening ridge storm sessions. So, um, so it's kind of, it's kind of like that. It's
Easy for him to say; he flies about 300k every time he gets out. You know, Bill, Bill flies eight to ten cross-country flights a year and has won the X contest, um, three or four times. So, so I often joke, "Good days." Well, yeah.
I have this running joke, whereas if it comes out out of the bag, it's gone a hundred miles. So, so if anything has changed, it's that. So can
I get that back.
i've
Been earlier talking about how, you know, downshifting was big in your mind, but what are the cues you're looking for when you upshift when you, you know, are trying to get
Well, I'll fall on bills real quick. I don't have kind of the scenario that lets me be as picky. I'll take anything I can get. So I do a lot of evening flying. I'll fly any opportunity I get. I feel like all of it helps me add skills and currency. So that's kind of the setup that I have to work with.
Yeah, yeah. So, to your, to your question, um, um, I mean, again, it's just going back to fundamentals. Like, if there's a—depending on where you are in the course line, there's a big climb in front of you. If you're like, if there's a big climb in front of me, if there's a bird marking it, marking something, there's a cloud—any like really positive indicator is when I'm, when I'm crawling 100%. And then the more uncertainty there is in the next move that I'm making, the more selective I'll be with the ground shift. Essentially, is what it is.
thing with the pilot that's holding back and holding back and holding back and you're never gonna be back. But yeah, I mean, I, I think like I maybe overemphasize the downshift, like you're for sure always pushing as much as you can, but it's not 100 all the time that never works ever. So I think it's, you know, it's just how much uncertainty is there in the next move is really what's causing like a shift in gears. Or I mean, like as far as racing tactics go, another big part of that is like, what are the people immediately around me doing? And who are specifically, who are they? Like, if I see Josh making move, Josh makes really high consistency moves, and so even if I don't know exactly what it is that we're racing for, he's going, I'll probably go full throttle, but...
But there's other people that will make a full throttle move that I won't necessarily stick to. So, I mean, all those are little things that add certainty or uncertainty to what you're doing and cause a good throttle down the route. I study who I'm around for sure. Like here, I recognize more and more people. It's pretty easy. When I go to comps where I don't know who I'm flying with, I'll go home at night and I'll look up the top 20 pilots. And I'll write down their numbers, and I'll do everything that I can to, like, remember who people are as quickly as I can throughout the week. Because, you know, there's someone that you know someone's got a logo on their wing, and they've got a bright wing, and you think maybe that's who you should be paying attention to, but it's actually this guy over here, and they've been winning all week, but you didn't pay attention to who they were, and they're—you're making some sort of a move.
And you know, you follow the bright, flashy wing and not the, you know, 217 that you should have been paying attention to and made a big mistake. So I studied who I'm flying with a lot. I
Find that very important also. Um, like on the practice day, I'll be walking around on launch, seeing who has new gliders and what harness they're flying, what helmet they're flying, what sleeves they're wearing, to try and just as quickly as possible, I learned to identify everybody. And then after flying, walk around and asking, like, "I didn't see you today, what glider are you flying?" and memorize as much of that as you possibly can, because if you know who people are and know their decision-making style, their level. It really, really helps you make better decisions. And you can also write it down and put it on a page on your flight app.
To add to the downshifting comment, it's useful to try to learn to recognize when you get in a situation where there's a good chance no one will make goal and then you're just XC flying.
It doesn't, you know, it doesn't happen that often but but when it does it can be a big advantage to recognize that before others do okay
So once you recognize who you're flying, and even when you don't, I'd love to hear from Revis, because you made a cheeky comment before the first task that the LC and I was going to be looking down on everybody, and I said, "Uh-huh." He said, "No, it seems like that's how it." You do have a really, like, you, Nick, Chris, Frank, and Lucio, you guys have a really good ability to, like, control the top of the stack. So, like, what kind of things are you, what kind of strategy, what kind of techniques are you using to stay on top when you're flying somewhere? Fly an extra large glider? Yeah, I think it's the
glider.
Fly an extra large glider with some Kiwi Juju. You, um, no, I, I feel like I'm climbing way better on that glider than I have on any other, um, but it also like the, the comp venues where I've had success, like that, I feel like play to my strengths in climbing because of the kind of XC flying I do, um, and it's places where there's a lot of lift, but then there are cores that are significantly better, and if you can sense where that core is, is faster than the other people in your gaggle and move to it and make a turn, all of a sudden, even if you came at the bottom of the stack, now your two glider's higher. And you work that core. And then you feel, oh, it's shifted over here a little bit. And you go find that.
So if you can sniff the strongest cores in the climb faster than the other people around you, that's what helps you out-climb them. And then as soon as you're above them, then it's easy. I mean, maybe not. But easier. That was something
Donizete was really... Impressing on us a couple years ago is like more seeking, because we were like pouring up a lot and he was doing these crazy passes and seeking out bigger lift, and we all made it easy. I mean, we all but, um, made it easy because we stayed in one spot, and if there's someone kind of marking one thing, it makes it easier to safely seek, and then you can return back to the marked core. So, and
So the more conservative the gaggle you're in is, the easier it is to outclimb them by making those moves and sniffing and finding the better lift, because they're just going to stay right where they are turning 360s; and if you don't make the right move and it's not where you thought it was, you just jump right back in, haven't really lost anything, but if you're with a really good gaggle, they are going to track your every move and join you immediately as soon as you show that stronger lift the
really high level pumps. It doesn't feel like anyone's going like this ever. It's like everything, everyone's seeking all the time. There's tons of seeking, way more seeking than I ever, than Can
you articulate for those of us with fewer hours what you mean by snipping? I know what that is, but can you step further into that?
It's pretty hard to describe. I think it's something that you develop a feel and an intuition for. And it's also something that potentially becomes easier when you're flying higher aspect, higher performance gliders because they just give you more information about what the air is doing.
But yeah, for me, a huge part of it is the feel the glider is giving me through the risers and the brakes, and the way the tips are moving. But describing how to take that information and know where the actual strong lift is, I don't think I can put that in words. It's—it's opening up when, when we're searching in thermals, like what Evan's describing, you're opening up your turn into directions where the lift is just as strong as what you're in, or a little bit stronger. So, if, if you're on this, if you're in a climb and your 360 is beeping a little bit hotter on one side of the climb, oftentimes I'm going to open my turn up and keep pushing into that. And most of the time, nearly always, the stronger lift is on the windward side if there's a wind, if there's a aspect of it.
And so I'm seeking, I'm trying to seek upwind a little bit more to sniff into that. And um, oftentimes, if you open up your turn and you fly straight, sometimes you discover that there's, you know, you're sitting over there coring hard in a certain area, thinking that you're in the core, and you open up and it's just this huge, broad area of massive lift, and you can fly straight for ages, like seconds, and end up in the true core in the area and really nail the climb. So it's just sniffing into the stronger bits of the climb and constantly adjusting your circles over that, that strong as a pit. One tactic that's helpful, mainly when you're just flying with one or a few other people, is if you're flying along and both fly into some lift, one person starts turning to the right side, you don't necessarily have to start turning to the right with them, you can turn to the left, you do a cloverleaf, and see who gets the better part of it, and then if they're higher,
then you join their turn. or
Even doing that by yourself, I naturally turn to the right more. So, if I think I'm getting into the climb, I'll start left because then later on it's easier for me to reverse and go the other direction to go right if I think I'm doing something over there.
but switching directions you're not sure exactly what's going on switching direction is going to be another way to just cover more Having a device, especially if you're not flying in front of other people, if you're having a device that's mapped out all over, you're not afraid about falling
out of it and not being able to find it again, and you've been flying solo for a long period of time.
I think especially on the higher aspect gliders, like if I'm flying and it's pretty strong lift, you know like 3 maybe to 5 or 6 for the day, and I'm flying into 3 and I can feel my glider just wanting to still bite, I'll just keep flying into it because it's just getting better and better, and it feels like it's just wanting to hang out in front a little bit, or if it pulls to one side, I'll usually go into that side a little bit and find the better part of the lift you
know what I call that waffly hollow feeling at the edge of the thermal before you fall out of the edge knowing even sometimes it's
Getting better, but like, with this waffliness, and you just know like, okay, it's time to turn
You guys have any wisdom you can fend to words on how you choose line better, rather than just sort of like pointing at something that looks good and hoping for the best?
Read
clouds. Farmer's a really good blotter. Yeah. Yeah, it's a farmer question. Yeah, how did
you - I've got this reputation, I would say don't believe the hype.
so
I would say where I'm working to figure out where to glide and and how to get through a big crossing, um, and get there the highest. When I say that, it's really very similar to thermaling, which is you're just trying to find the most positive air, and so you're looking for ground-based clues, clues, any kind of, if you're out in the flatlands or if you're crossing a valley between two ranges, any kind of ripples in the terrain that you think might act as triggers, they might not produce a thermal, but they might produce better gliding lines for that crossing. So you're kind of looking for like land bridges, so there's ground-based clues. You're looking for any indications in the sky: birds, bugs, or haze domes, little wispy clouds, any indication of lift to try to put yourself on those lines as well.
And I think that feel and sensing it is something that you can practice, and I've kind of talked about, you know, getting a sense for L over D over ground. And at first, you're looking at your instrument to kind of see what that number is, but far more important than looking at your instrument, because that's just the beginning of the training, is keeping your eyes up and putting your eyes on the horizon and feeling it. And just like when you're flying without your barrio, the best way to sense whether or not you're in climbing air or not, when there's not a terrain reference around, when you're high enough in the sky that there's no terrain reference, is to put your eyes clear out on the horizon and try to get a sense for whether or not you're in positive or negative air.
And so those are a few things, I guess. What do you get here in sync? If I, if I'm in really bad sync, I am trying to do something about it. And I would say the, the again, the bigger the crossing is, the more I'm willing to deviate off my line. Um, you know, 45 off course line is something I'm willing to do to try to get into more positive error. And it's being at these contests are what really help you see all that, because oftentimes, sometimes when you go out on a glide with a big gaggle and everybody spreads out, and then there's 10 or 15 people attacking a course basically in parallel to one another or perpendicular to the course line together attacking, you'll, you know, at the end of those glides, some in that group will end up higher than the others, which always shows you that there's better lines out there to be had.
So sniffing those out and trying to find them, deviating off course line a little bit if you're in really bad sync to try to find more positive air and affect the situation. And I would also say that leaving a climb properly is one of the things that's given me, I feel like, a reputation of gliding better, and I'm not colliding better than anybody, I'm leaving climbs better. And if there's a cloud street, of course, you're just gonna follow the street and put yourself underneath it, but the more separation there is between big climbs, the more you're gonna want to think about exiting a climb properly. And by that I mean thinking about what direction the winds blown.
So if you're going downwind, like we're on a lot of cross country flights, and you're in a nice big climb, if you go go directly downwind of that climb on your exit, there is rotor behind that climb, there's sink behind that climb, and if you just exit 45 or sometimes even 90 to course line out the side of that cloud is your first meter before you go on your glide and get back on whatever your course line is, you can put 500 people, 500 feet on people before you even start the glide. And then by the time people look over, they're like, "Wow, he's gliding really well." Well, I just left the climb better, um, and so you know that that one's pretty big, I think, because leaving climbs better, and you can, um, once you kind of start working on that and figuring it out, you can, you can really feel how that lift extends.
Sometimes instead of just going over the waterfall, you're kind of riding, surfing the lift out the side of the thermal, what
About the mechanics, that's super helpful.
One thing that comes to mind is that it takes at least several hours to properly set up a pod harness. So you've got to put in the time if you want it to work well. And that can be done in your garage. I mean, I would say that you can spend, certainly from getting the thing set up nicely and getting it comfortable for yourself, you don't need to sacrifice a bunch of lights. You can sit in your new harness in your garage for hours and figure out it's really good. All the gear that you put in the back of the harness makes a big difference in the balance point, so if you want to get the angle accurate, you You've got to put that stuff back there.
Everything. Yeah, like you're going flying. And get your kit all set up. But
just some specifics there too, like chasing people like Honorin and Baptiste. I've picked up, like, on a big glide, my elbows, I tuck them in as tight behind the riser as I can. I smush my head back into my bearing so that I try to not hear any wind noise against my against my head, like push on the risers, not yanking on them, because you can pull a lot more riser than you think really easily like that, and pulling your toes down so keep yourself at that angle. Like those little bits of flourish, it all, it all, it all adds up. It has like a tiny little point, and on a 10k glide, that gives you an extra hundred meters on the other end or whatever, and it all adds up.
Speed sleeves, anything that flaps, anything that's flapping, your bleeding, bleeding efficiency as you cross, so keeping all your flappers tucked in tight under the speed sleeve, that all adds up. I
tend to cut off the zipper pulls, Pam. I use Pam. I spray my
super slick in the air, yeah.
like cliche, every morning I'd say, let that
I'd say let that glider fly, yeah? Don't over-control it on the bees. You know, you can be on a bunch of bar, and if you're pulling just as much bees as you're on bar because you're scared of the speed bar, you're not on speed bar. Um, so let that thing fly and react to the things that need to be reacted to. Don't react to everything, you know? So if you're reacting to every bump in the air with the brakes or the bees, and you're knocking the glider back, you are, you know, kind of degrading the performance of the glider and kind of waffling out of the sky sometimes as you go through some of those bumps that you don't need to react to, that aren't going to cause a collapse, and you can just chop through them. The energy of your glider will, will translate that into a climb a little bit it on the other side.
And so, you know, react to, react more to loss of pressure and less the glider position over your head is what I would say, and be smooth does
That mean like writing your glider picture, yeah? It's going to do that, yes, yeah.
Um, I'm trying to feel pressure through my hands and and it's really hard to feel it through your legs because those are big muscles. But you're trying to feel pressure loss as an indicator of that collapse more than glider position. And if you train on like porpoising your glider super hard with bar and brake movements, you can learn that, you know, your glider stays open in pretty extreme positions. And so you learn to trust it more when those pitch changes, you know, aren't all that extreme and you can just let that thing fly, which is always going to be more efficient than over-managing the glider.
In my mind, all that movement is not efficient, right?
This
is more true for the higher performance wings, but they will take that movement and translate it into that, you know, a little bit of a climb on the other side. so you know the the lower level wings will tend to get beat up more by that turbulence and the really high-performance wings will translate that into little notches of climb up if you're not ever managing it you
control the pitch of the gladiator on the speed bar also moving forward and backwards Once it's going backwards, you step a little more and it goes forward. That's so cool. For me, only
if I think it's about to have a really big funnel, I might come off the bar as well as pull the bees. That used to be the whole deal. Back before we were flying two liners with bee handles, so much of it was in the bar. And so I'd say that it's, it's hard to, to not do that on the bigger movements. It's, it's all about coming off when it's gonna go, so grabbing some bees and coming off the bar. The more extreme the pressure loss or movement to the glider that might indicate a collapse, the more reactive I'm gonna, I'm gonna be when it, when it comes to hammering the bees and coming off the bar.
In general, no. Just keep it pegged.
You
might be flying and you get into the top of the sink. The moment you
deviate or the thought process of it, there's gonna be a big climb on the other side of this.
How much altitude do you have? Yeah, got plenty of altitude. You know, it looks like there's gonna be some things like cloud in front of you, terrain coming up. You're just like, just plow through it, yeah? Uh, get, you know, it's like you got, you got altitude to burn, burn it, um, rather than worrying about being on, seeing if you could be on a better line and
Also, what have you experienced so far in the day? And on Sunday, I felt like after crossing I-70, almost any time I hit three three three and a half meters down, I just push more bar and say, "Here comes the climb." That the sink was the indication that there was going to be a climb, not something
flying from your side. I
mean those two kinds of sinks seem to have kind of a different flavor. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but like, there's like a sink that feels like it's drawing into something versus you have like linear sink where you're on the wrong side of the converging fly, and then 45 movements will help you to get upwind or
downwind of it. There's the
when you're just gliding through really smooth air and then you get some bumpiness that might not necessarily be lifty, but it's often a good sign unless you're flying into a rotor or something. There's some bumps and it's a bad sign.
It probably depends also if you're going into the wind versus with the wind and whether that really changes what you're doing. Did any of you guys comment on the stepping up in glider classes? And I'm the
most curious, personally, to take
on the difference between the modern 2-liner
D category versus the CCC gliders and just how that experience is different, how much the workload is different, what you feel like you get out of one or two gliders.
Yeah, I'd say Josh or Farmer, they bounce back and forth more than most, so even Revis as
well. Wow. I have three gliders these days, and two of them are two-line Ds and one's a CCC,
and they're all great, and I tend to fly the two-line Ds cross country. Well, one of them's where I can fly, but because the performance difference is there, but it isn't massive unless you're at full speed, but the workload is a little higher. So I find that if I'm going to fly an eight-hour cross country flight in strong conditions, I'm going to have more energy and mental bandwidth left to finish that flight on a two-line D, than I would on an Enzo. And it also seems like if you do have an event, just the chance of being able to recover it is a lot better on the Thu than the 668.
And a pilot will always perform the best on the glider that they're most comfortable on.
That's why I buy what I like. Always.
You can't buy cross country flights and competition wins by buying a higher performance glider. You can try, though. You can try. I love to try.
I didn't know that when you see it. I did that. I tried that.
How did it work out? I full-stalled Denso.
It's, yeah, you should be on the glider that you are super excited about to go out and throttle it as full bar and be happy doing that. And if you're scared to be on a full bar on your glider, then and you're on a lower level wing, you need to train more on the bar. And if you're on a higher level wing, you've just stepped up to and you're scared of the bar, then you need to, you know, maybe think about going back down to another glider because if you can't use its full ability, then what's the point of that performance? And there's also a risk to reward sort of calculation relative to the conditions, conditions, and the site, and so on. That's why I'm flying the Zeno II here, whereas I was flying an X-1 in Chelan.
Chelan I'm pretty familiar with, it's for the most part not super extreme conditions and I didn't know the site here and I'd heard it could be kind of big air and could be kind of remote sometimes and so on, So it just felt like the Drist award was more favorable. Do you guys have any, uh, advice for being a better gaggle pilot? There's like infinite number of variations, but kind of like a couple common ones are, you know, you're with one or two other people, there's 10, 20 people below you, a few hundred feet, and those guys are going. It's like, all right, go with those guys, don't wait for everyone else, or vice versa, you're on the bottom, the whole armada starts going, and then you're like, do I, I take another five, six turns and then try to catch up, or do I take my poison and go and hope to pick it off the bottom?
Well, following from below hardly ever works.
We've all tried that a lot.
You're like, I'm winning! I'm landing!
So I would say, you know, take your medicine. That's always the best.
Easier said than done, but that always is is the answer that's going to have the highest percentage of a better result because, you know, you may get an opportunity later to make up for it. And so be patient. So you're taking your medicine here, but you'll have some gliders in front of you. Maybe you can take a better line based on that information
and have an opportunity later. But, yeah, racing from below is a low percentage, And
the other scenario you described depends a lot on the conditions. If you're still in a good climb, but people below you are leaving because maybe they fell out of the bottom of the cliff that you're in, I would be thinking about kind of the angle of control that I have on those gliders. How far can they get away from me before if they reach a climb of this strength, I won't be able to get in on top of them. And so once they start going, I'll probably leave to maintain that and let them find the climb, but I won't let them get so far away that if they find the next three meter climb I'm gonna come in underneath when I try and chase them in that climb. I guess the one I was describing is you're with a couple of people well above the rest of the gaggle, those couple of people go. Oh, the top people, okay.
Do I go with like the two or three top people or do I wait for the... It depends who they are. Yeah.
Also depends if the climb you're in is better than average for the day and better than what you expect to find next. Yeah, I'd say that's a really big one, which is if you're in a boomer climb, like a unique climb for the day, I would definitely stick with it and take advantage of that climb. A lot of your speed on course is gained in stronger climbs. Um, you know, you can't—it's really hard to catch people by following them, and it's really only through taking advantage of typically a really a lot better climb than what other people have found that put you in a position actually catch people up. I
Have maybe an answer to a slightly different variant of that question, but how to be a better gaggle flyer? Like the mentality, as far as like flying in a tight group and flying on on glides, the mentality I try to have is like, how can I fly in such a way that I pull the whole group forward? And that's not necessarily like, okay, yeah, you go ahead here. If you're all circling and there's a a core there, I'll attack and take the inside of the core to mark that there's something there and help, hopefully, draw people into the part of the core. And then similarly, when you go on a glide, you know, if I'm high but a little bit behind, I'll dump some of my height so that I can be part of that front fan, even though then I've lost maybe a little bit of kind of this height advantage. Then I'm out there on the front line, I'm helping move the whole group forward, and if I happen to be the one that finds a climb first, suddenly I've got something to work with.
Whereas if I'm behind and someone else finds it first, off the best I'm ever going to do is arrive at the same place as them. so
Yeah, let's do two more questions.
So let's see, uh, there is a goggle in front of you and one behind. So, what's your kind of process thinking about, like, should you just fly by yourself, try to reach out the one in front, or Or should you wait for the guys behind you and fly with them so you can have more, I don't know, chances to survive and, like, fly faster?
Well, who's going to do more for you? You know, and that is, like, if it's the lead gaggle in front of you, it's likely going to have a better collection of pilots in it that is going to solve the problems better. and if it's the gaggle behind you, they may only just be interested in following you, and they don't have any answers for the problems that you might encounter that need to be solved. So, gaggle flying is the company you keep, and the better company, the better the result. So, I would say you just have to guess who is going to do more for you: the gaggle in front or the gaggle behind, and and if it's a gaggle in front, you just try to catch it.
I think another way of saying that would be try to stick with the fastest gaggle that you think you can stick with. I
wanted
to add, if you have a specific strategic need, how do you plan the exit? Is it 20 days or is it just five?
Well, rule number one is try not to get anybody hurt or killed. You know, because, you know, like I was saying earlier, you can master flying the glider quicker than you can master when to fly the glider in terms of the day you pick. And so, you know, you're trying to share as much as you can, but you're also trying to make that appropriate for the group that you have. So, you're not encouraging them even accidentally to get in over their head, which doesn't mean that, you know, that they're just going to get hurt physically.
You know, you can get hurt mentally, which can be more devastating than even being hurt physically, resulting in a much longer recovery time. And so, you know, you want to just make sure that the level in which the curve that they're on is appropriate for the individual.
And that's about the best way I can explain it. And so that the days you're going out are reasonable days. And if there are days on the margins, you know, you make sure you talk about what that means and you talk about it before you launch, you talk about it in the air, and you try to always be available after if someone wants to talk about it further, you know. And I think that's the key with mentorship is, you know, be participating with the group regularly. So everybody sort of knows how people fly, how they process information,
also plenty of time in the vehicle for questions, and then be available after. But I would say beyond that, I don't have a specific, you know, I'm not an instructor. I don't have a curriculum that I work with. it just depends on the individual but
Someone here read a pretty good article talking about a progression pen in the magazine. Could be worth it, could be worth it, very very specific. Let's
Do one more, I
Have one more question, sorry, it's not quite as profound as maybe that last one, but on the guys on the topic of technique, you guys talk a little bit about like black vision turning. I've heard like two schools of thought on like weight shift, rig as little as possible to affect the change you want or the return that you want, or like a little bit of outshat sideways should kind of keep it flat. Um, can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, um...
Bank angle should be determined by what it takes to stay in the best lift. I mean, to me, that's how simple it is. So, if it's a, you know, a scrappy little strong bit, and the only way I can get a full 360 in there is to stand the glider up on a tip and do a, you know, pretty steep, inefficient turn, I'm staying in that lift. Um, the bigger and broader that lift is, the more I'm trying to stay flat and fly efficiently to get the most out of it. So, to me, bank angle is about how can I, how can I position myself to to maximize me staying in that climb? The really tricky ones are the, the tight light, of course.
And like, sometimes the only way to work those is to fly kind of slowly, and do you really want to have like practice to spin initiations before flying that slow, or
I'll put it a little different, and that is with every turn you're trying to carve the perfect turn in the perfect spot, you know? And that is as farmer said, the appropriate bank angle for the size of the thermal, and then trying to get the glider in the best part of the thermal for that 360. And you might be climbing for 5,000 feet, and it's never over every, you know, you're—it's like mountain biking. You're trying to get each corner. It's like, I got that one, I didn't quite get that that one, and so thermaling is the same way. It's like sometimes I feel like, oh, I got that circle perfect. And then, you know, I don't know, next circle, not quite right. But all the way up to the top, you're trying to see how many good circles you can get out of the act of climbing.
And do it every time you're climbing. You're trying to get that perfect circle. and that will keep you engaged when you're flying and it will also make the climb better.
I think related to that is if you can, so if you're in a gaggle and you're like reacting to everyone around you constantly, you're gonna be a darting around and bobbling around, and of course you want to give people space, but the ideal thing would be to do is totally smooth circle while still avoiding, avoiding everyone. And often that's not so hard to do, but you just have to like...
It's easy to avoid everyone if you're sitting on top of the whole gaggle by a hundred feet. That's what I'm gonna do. Just be smooth and turn perfect circles.
No, but just it sort of requires a little anticipating where it's going to be. And on the technique side of it, I would say that on any given day, I'll try a whole variety of techniques, and typically most thermals on a certain day will respond best or the glider will climb best using one side of those techniques, and that would include inside brake, outside rear, some weight shift inside, possibly weight shift outside, possibly using like a lot of inside brake, a little bit of outside brake to control the tip, sometimes almost just weight shift, sometimes thermal on both ribs, and then when they're really strong cores Bank it up tight.
Y 'all, before we shut this down, thank you for coming. Thank you to our panel.
When I called Bill today to see if he would do this, he said we have an obligation to do this. And I've had a lot of people ask this week, how do you find mentors and how do we get more information? All you've got to do is ask. Not everybody I've ever been involved with in this sport who knows a lot more than me has ever said no. No, it is. It's an obligation. And I think all these guys proved that they're willing to get it through. So I ask, let's have some fun the rest of the week. And hopefully we'll be good. They
look better. Just don't look out.
If
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