Hi there everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloud Base Mayhem. Just returned last night from Columbia, the World Cup down there, which was very much like a Superfinal. Crazy fast, very, very high level, and started rough. A couple days of pretty bad weather in the beginning, but ended really strong and super fun. Always fun to get down there, and the Air Nomads crew always put on a great event, and you've all heard of Columbia. The flying is pretty epic down there, and certainly did not disappoint this year. But now I'm home, back to podcasting business, and my guest today, we've been doing a lot of different shows lately, and this is certainly one of them. My guest today is professional mountain biker of 25 years, still going strong.
Ryan Leach, who does a lot of... Online coaching, and his specialty is kind of the risk-reward continuum, or spectrum. And so a very good friend of mine, and mentor, Nate Scales, who's been on the show, and you've heard me talk about a bunch. Lives right down the street from me here in Sun Valley. He has gotten really into mountain biking the last few years, and he follows Ryan online, and follows all his coaching, and sent me an email quite a few months back. And he said, hey, what about doing a podcast with this guy? So I reached out to Ryan. And he very generously agreed, and we had a great talk. His knowledge of risk and how to navigate it. I mean, you basically take out mountain biking, put in paragliding.
It's all the same stuff. We're dealing with all the same decision-making, and egos, and peer pressure, and that's what we get into in this talk. Really how to have a long career, and stay accident-free, and be smart about what we do. Of course, paragliding is, you know, with the aviation aspect and the ground aspect, the injuries tend to be a little more severe than they are in mountain biking. But in mountain biking, there are a lot of injuries. So very relevant. Like I said, we had a ton of fun. We talk about inherent risks, and we talk about why some lessons are very hard to learn. And we talk a lot about the subconscious versus the conscious.
And how that can, you know, how handing over things to our subconscious, which is what we want to do if we get into flow, is a good thing. But can also be kind of a dangerous thing. So I think you're going to dig it. I had a lot of fun with this. We really kind of hit on a good wavelength and had a blast. So enjoy the show with Ryan Leach, professional mountain biker.
Ryan, welcome to the mayhem. It's a... It's a... It's great to connect with you. Happy New Year. And we've been trying to do this for a little while. But this is kind of a very different show than we typically do. And I thought where we might start is your email. I... A very big mentor of mine, a guy named Nate Scales, who everybody listens to the show is pretty familiar with. He's my neighbor, and he's been really instrumental in teaching me a lot of paragliding over the last couple decades. He's a... He's a mad mountain biker. He's totally into it. There's a whole big group of them here in Sun Valley who ride all the time. And he follows your stuff and your coaching and training and follows you on Instagram and stuff. And I've been doing that the last couple of weeks, just prepare that for this show.
You put out a lot of great content and a lot of great instructional stuff. But to give our listeners just a little bit of background on you and to give them an idea of what we're going to be talking about. I thought I'd just read your... Your email that went out to your followers about your webinars. So, I've maintained a 25 year long pro mountain biking career by successfully navigating the risk reward continuum. It's a slippery and surprisingly complex slope. And one we all must work through in a personalized way if we desire to ride mountain bikes for the rest of our lives. There's no doubt that biking can be risky. How risky is up to you? Well, sort of. You see how risky is tricky to determine as there are many myriad influential and subjective factors at play. We are making an endless stream of decision when riding and many of them may be subconscious or automatic.
It kind of sounds like flow there. Based on our past life experiences and adverse events from childhood. For example, we are social creatures with egos. Despite our conscious intent to ride within our ability level, we may inadvertently increase the amount of risk we're willing to take for the reward of being part of or accepted into the pack. The classic example is that when you successfully conquer a challenging section of trail, the reward is undeniable. It feels incredible. Naturally, we seek that challenge. But we don't get that same reward again. And that seeking can become insatiable for a variety of personalized reasons. So riders may continue to increase the risk until they crash. And some push it so far they end up in the hospital. Not just once, but time and time again. Without learning their lesson because it's subconscious. There are many more conscious and unconscious negotiations we make moment to moment when riding.
And the more we can become aware of these dynamics through curious exploration, the better equipped we can maintain an injury-free and rewarding life. Riding life. I read this over and over again. I bet.
I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I
bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. I bet. chat all about things we love.
Yes. Welcome 2022, right?
Totally. Yeah. No, I'm so curious about chatting being that we are passionate about different sports, but we're still in the same arena of a sport that has risk and how we navigate that for a long, enjoyable life. I was always so worried that mountain biking was going to be just a short phase of my life and I'd be too injured or hurt or sore and not be able to do it for the rest of my life. And my mindset changed early in my pro career to figure out a way to make sure that wasn't the case. And whether you're a pro or recreational athlete, I think that's a good thing to ponder because our health and well-being for the long, long term is so valuable.
How have you been able to maintain that health and that perspective for such a long period of time? Has that been kind of a continuum of learning or you talk about you kind of had to change your mindset. Can you dive into that specifically?
Yeah, for sure. As a pro, I think you need to get noticed as a pro rider, especially early in your career as a pro. You want to take risks, say for a video segment that really gets you noticed. And usually the more you risk, the more you get noticed. And I was fairly fortunate not to have any major injuries. I think my ACL was about the worst I had. Blew my knee and knock on wood, I haven't broken any bones throughout that entire. And a pro's job really is riding, pun not intended, kind of riding that narrow edge, riding that line between success and failure.
I mean, more so it's like disaster and major reward. And pros are really good at staying on that line for, and the long careers, they're, really good at it. And I feel I became really good at knowing exactly when to take a risk and when not to. Observers might think, God, you know, Ryan, you are so reckless and careless, and you took risks that were way beyond your ability. But you know, that's, you know, that's their sort of objective viewpoint. My subjective experience was not that way. You know, there's certain things that, subjective, you just know you can pull something off.
And that knowing is something that allows you to do that move that may seem unattainable or too risky. Does that make sense?
Totally. I mean, and that's something we talk about in our sport a lot that I find really fascinating. Knowing you've got that move, that subjective call is different on different days. You know, there are days where, you're so in flow, you're so in the moment that, and there's so few distractions and for whatever reason. And I've, you know, I think it's really hard to just make that happen. There's just, you know, it just sometimes does. And, you know, whether it's the training and all the things that come together, but the glue adheres, you know, the epoxy sets that day and you're in and you have every move and there's not a ton of fear involved. There's just enough, right.
And, but, and there's other days where you're just, yeah, I don't, I really don't have it today. And I think, you know, when you're aviating, it's similar to mountain biking is you, you guys statistically, as I understand it, have more accidents, but they're less severe. And, you know, when you're aviating, you get that equation wrong. It's a bad wrong. You don't ever want to miss that. And that's the problem. You know, you just don't have that one. Yeah.
I mean, so actually it'd be interesting. I wrote an article about flow quite a while ago and I kind of broke it down. I kind of saw four different types of flow that we might experience. And I don't know if it will map on to aviation or not. Maybe, maybe it will. I'll see if I can recall what they were. There was forced flow. There was, um, and, and forced flow is when you basically have to scare yourself to get into the state of flow. It's like, okay, uh, my life and wellbeing depends on it. I have to pull this off. Right. And then boom, that sort of snaps you into that flow state. Your subconscious
just takes over for survival instinct. Yeah.
And it's a gamble because it doesn't always happen. Right. And so, um, so, so that's, uh, so that's one, one type of flow. Then there's chance flow where you're just doing your thing and then you just randomly drop into this flow state and everything just clicks and happens. This is, those are quite common. Those both, both those first two in, in mountain biking for sure. Uh, and, and then another, another type is vicarious flow, which actually I, I threw, I threw that into the article I wrote just because it is so common in, in these sports. We have an audience, right? There's so many people, even, even as, you know, pros or recreational riders, we're always watching other athletes and it becomes fairly clear when a rider is in flow and when they're not, and when they are watching them is just this, it just transports you into this.
Beautiful state of vicarious flow. And that's a really cool thing. And that, you know, that's, that's for pro riders, making sure you develop your ability such that you're in flow state is, is, is really key. You can pull off some amazing moves and not be in flow and you can pull off those same amazing moves and be in flow. And I believe that the viewer has the ability to know the data. And it's most likely an unconscious knowing, but they can tell that vicariously whether you're in flow and it's more pleasurable to watch. And then the, the fourth type of flow that I identified was choice flow.
And I see this one as sort of like the, the golden one, you know, this is the one that we all want to be able to, to choose and enter the flow. We don't, and that's not by choosing to risk so much that you might end up in hospital. It's like, no, you're just, you're choosing to be in flow for, you know, there's nothing that gets in your way. You can just enter flow. And that's an interesting one. And that's something that I've really pursued, especially in the later phases of my career. And, you know, I don't have to, for, for me, performance isn't the only sort of ingredient for choice flow.
I don't have to be at the edge of my ability level in order to choose to be in flow. There are so many other elements that are contributing to that. So anyway, that's kind of, I just wanted to kind of share that overview. I love
that. It's almost, I kind of see that as kind of a staircase of hierarchy of, of flow. Yeah. I've never heard that as well. That I like that. When you talk about choice flow, this kind of the, the, the tip top one, do you have any specific, you know, do you have mantras, words,
anything that helps trigger that? Because I, when I think about with flying, it's, it's, there are times, I think everybody listening to this is, has had that moment of just, you know, wicked flow. You're in flow and things are just working. You're finding the thermals before they're there and you're going to the right place. You're making the right decisions, but it's, in paragliding, there's a lot, especially when you're racing or when you're flying cross country, you're trying to kind of piece together a big day. There are times where you actually have to drop out of flow and, and think, you know, let the conscious mind take back over and, you know, assess the sky. And it's, I'd say it's just a, it's a little more conscious than just feeling it, but then you got to snap back right away.
And I think it's that, that continuum or that, I don't know, it's not very linear. It's, it's hard to, it's hard to kind of jump in and jump out of that. And I think that that's what many pilots really struggle with.
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's where the choice comes in. Okay. Well you're in flow. And then at some point you might have to choose to exit it, to make some crucial, sort of decisions or to, to acquire some data, for instance, to make the next move and then to be able to have the ability to snap right back into it. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's kind of the move, right. That's kind of the, the, the, the hope. So yeah, in terms of your question, you know, I found, I found that, well, one thing I've really found useful is, is getting out of the measurement realms of our current culture. So leaving the phone at home, when I go for a ride, I'm not on Strava, I'm not checking trail forks, you know, I'm not taking photos, you know, no heart rate, no, no.
Yes. Just pure, just you and the sport.
Nothing. There's just, I don't have any of that. Yeah. So I just leave that all behind and then, you know, that's a, that's been a good practice. Yeah. Because obviously this is not something I've mastered. It's something that, you know, I'm continuously working on. I, I would say that for me on a, on a ride that, you know, there's the distinction between solo rides and riding with a friend or, or, or group ride. And there's, yeah, there's certain kinds of, so when I'm with a friend, I find it's when I, I can choose to be in flow when I'm meshing with them and their, their energy.
And I'm not trying to compete against them. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm really trying to ride with them, whether I'm following or whether I'm in front, there's this, there's this, there's this fun element, not trying to show off, you know, again, just for me choosing to get in to flow, I have to get out of that competitiveness. Which ironically is a big fuel for the earlier parts of my career where force flow was a little more prominent. And so there may also be this, and it's something that I'd like to think about this developmental process to the experience of flow, these higher qualities of flow that I feel that I'm experiencing more of, and this ability to choose flow later in my career and later in my life, it's richer, it's deeper.
It's more, more fluid and full. You know, there is I believe a developmental aspect to be able to hold more. You're, you're able to just have a much. The energy can flow through your being at a much higher bandwidth. And so that. Yeah. So there's that developmental aspect. And. So. Yeah. I find. I find risk actually. Ironically. As some something that I, you know, the forced flow that I have, you know, I can still do it and I still do that every once in a while. But the feeling when I come out of that state is more of a relief kind of feeling rather than this really just rich beauty.
So I don't know. Yeah. Is any of that kind of, it
does. I mean, I, I just, I think when we get into the flow conversation, it's, it's so hard to articulate it because it's something that is subconscious. It is something that, you know, right now talking to you, we could have a flow session right now. Maybe, you know, something could just happen and we're in there and, you know, and maybe not, you know, it's just, it's just hard. It's one of these things that, uh, you know, I think for most people, it's pretty hard to turn off and turn on, you know, you need, like you said,
you need to be able to, you know,
the easiest way, you know, Steve Kotler's written about this a lot, obviously is, is, is by, is through risk. You know, it's just when you're, when you're suddenly presented into this. Yeah,
I know. And I don't want, I don't want to reinforce that. Yeah. Like that's the forced flow. Sure. And sure. It's yeah, it's great, but you know, it's not, and I, and I get it and it's rad and it's a great way in, but I don't want it to, you know, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not to be like the only way or sort of the key way people are sort of reaching for striving for.
When you look back at your career, you said something earlier that kind of made my hackles come up. Cause I, I think about this, my, my first big film project was with Will Gadd, who I'm sure you're aware of. And he, you know, he, you know, kind of Red Bull OG, and he had done a ton of big film work when, when I went and did this project, with him across the Canadian Rockies. And one of the first things he said, and I don't know if he just read it in me or not, but he said, you know, turn off the cameras in your mind. You got to forget about these guys. You're going to, you know, I mean, basically what he was saying is this is super risky. What we're going to do right now for the next, however long this takes, it ended up taking 18 days, but it was, you know, this is dicey and it's dicey enough.
And you got to not think about those guys for the, you know, from now and all the, you said earlier in your career, you know, one of the things you got to do to be a pro is get noticed.
And, you
know, you got to get the sponsors, you got to make the films. And, you know, one of the theories, one of the things we talk about a lot in our sport, that's creating a lot of mayhem are GoPros, you know, just cameras, you know, people that are first getting into flying and they're stepping off the hill. It's crazy pretty. And you got a GoPro on your head and you just said, you know, you got to leave all that stuff behind. I mean, when I
was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid, I was a kid,
I see newer pilots with cameras. I'm just thinking that's just one more thing to manage. You got to turn it off and you got to turn it off. You got to think about the stuff you're creating and man, your head is, that's not where you want your head to be.
Yeah. Yeah. Kodak courage back in the film days. Right. Totally. Yeah. Gosh. I'm just curious when
you went, you know, if you looking back at your career, how would you tell people to navigate that space when they're trying to, because that's, I see, I mean, you're, you're, you're talking about, you know, you've got to learn how to ride that line you were talking about earlier and, but how do you learn it? How do you, you know, especially
when you're early. Totally. Yeah. I was going to say the, the latter conversation in terms of choice flow meditation is also a major thing that I've invested a lot of time in that hasn't had a direct effect in the quality of flow state. So, so that's one thing, but to, I mean, and then, so, but jumping back to earlier career. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of these things where it's like, it's easy to, to put more complex, meaningful thoughts onto my younger self. It's easy to have this retrospective vision of what I did and how I did it and why it worked.
Yeah. I'm not saying it wasn't as easy as it was, you know, my, you know, like almost like taking too much credit. It's like anytime someone's successful at something and then they give you, Hey, you just got to do step one through 10 and you can be successful too. Right. It always kind of bothers me because it's like these formulas. Yeah. Anytime you follow a formula, it's like, well, it's yeah. It's, It's great and it's helpful, but we all have such unique paths. We all have such unique sort of drivers. We've had all these unique life experiences that lead to different realities. And my reality happens to be this insatiable desire to learn technical mountain bike skills.
And that's what I lived and breathed. I thought about it. In school, I would just be riding my bike in my head constantly. And then I'd get off school and I'd be practicing on my bike, working on all these skills. And I've done a lot of sports. In every sport, I've done a lot of manual labor. And all these physical things are contributing to my ability to read risk. Right? And so as I developed this, as someone that was just loving the sport, I didn't have to take risk to get noticed.
I just loved the sport. And that passion drove me to get very intimate with how my bike and body moved together. And then that allowed me to... I mean, just that... That got me noticed. And then as I got noticed, I was able to apply those skills to more sensational moves and tricks on a variety of different terrain types. And I enjoyed that creative process. So there was always this real passion and desire to pull off moves that no one else had pulled off. So there was this deep alignment with my purpose through those years.
You know, I... And it was only at a certain point in my career, and it happened fairly early, that I started to notice, hey, this is not something I would do if there wasn't a camera. And that's the crucial moment. That was the crucial moment for me. It's like, I'm doing things that I wouldn't choose to do if it wasn't for a sponsorship paycheck or to get in the film or magazine. And so that begun, you know, a decade. A decade-long process of navigating sort of that sort of continuum.
You talk about, you know, the classic example. When you conquer a challenging section of trail, the reward is undeniable. So this, you know, the hop to flying is... We often talk about... We have a database. You have Strava, right? We have a database that we can upload our flights to. And it's fantastic. Because you can... Look at these flights and analyze them and look at other people's flights from all over the world. It's a world database. And all the big flights, people put them in there. Part of it's bragging rights, but part of it is just, you know, it's a contest. It's called X-Contest. And so, you know, your six flights of the year add up to... But it's also...
The dark side of it is it's created what we're talking about. You know, this striving in a sport. We really shouldn't be striving that hard in, you know? Yeah.
And so it's...
It's interesting because it's, you know, it has... It's a very kind of good and bad side. And, you know, when you talk about this conquering a line, that's exactly the word we would use in flying. You know, we conquer a line. We see the day. We have the forecast. And we try to get a certain distance. You pull it off. You know, it's an amazing feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then what? This is always the problem. You know, then if you conquer another amazing line that's not as far, it's not as amazing. It just doesn't feel as good. And it's... Which is totally incorrect. I mean, what we should be chasing is the ascetic, always. And not distance. But...
Right. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, that's a crucial distinction. What is your measurement? What are you measuring? Yes. What is the overall structure? What
is the goal of the
purpose of your sport? And having a little deeper map would be really helpful, I think, in how we progress in a sport. And I think that the tool that you're talking about is really important. That should be on the map. And, you know, I see these tools as incredible vehicles for the progression of our sport. I mean, it's unbelievable. But if that was not the thing, but part of a more holistic picture of the sport that is referenceable that we can sort of work with, then I think we can more skillfully use those tools.
And thus gain much deeper...
Yeah. It's like, I know what you mean. It's somehow on those flights or on those rides when we're really striving to achieve something, and that is the goal. That's the one goal. We actually don't register. We don't actually experience. We leave an experience behind that is perhaps of a richer, deeper... Yeah....longer lasting sort of satisfaction. We sort of almost bypass that because we're so focused on the goal. I don't know if that makes sense. I'm just making it up as I'm talking. No, it does.
It does. I just... I have found this hard thing in my own life and to articulate on the show is that, you know, when you nail that line, you know, that feeling of ecstasy, obviously, we're human. It dissipates, right? It does. Yeah. It's dangerous to keep chasing that. You know, as we get older... That drug. Yeah. Well,
that's where the deeper... Yeah. That's where it's like, yeah, it doesn't do it. It actually doesn't do it anymore. It's like... That's it. It doesn't matter. You know, good for you. You had the first. And, oh, you had another first. Good for you. And you got famous for it. Good for you. But... But... It's not... It doesn't... You know, you... You can gain these high levels of achievement and notoriety in a sport. And it's awesome. I don't want to downplay that because I've had my own experience in mountain biking. And, you know, I'm so grateful for that. But the experience I'm having on my bike now, there's just a much more satisfying, deeper level of enjoyment that I derive.
This connection with nature. Like, it's... It's bad. It's better. You know? It's better than
the... It's better than when you had the big goals and the more risky line. Interesting. Yeah.
It's like... It's... I mean, it's not a replacement. It's like this transcend and include move. It's like... Yeah, it's... Yeah, it's better. It's better.
Was this... Was... Was... Was getting to this place in your career... Really conscious? Was this something you recognized earlier? Okay.
What's the... Oh, geez. What's the Red Bull event where they're jumping off all the cliffs down Utah? Rampage. Rampage. You know, was... Was... Okay. This is just... This is inevitable where this is going. And I'm going to... I'm going to consciously choose something else. Or was this just kind of how your career evolved?
No, it was... It was a conscious... It was a conscious choice. Okay. Yeah. It was meditation part
of it.
I read
it. I read it. I recognized
it. You
recognized it? It was. Yeah. Yeah. I
recognized it. Yeah. Yoga. Okay. Yoga allowed me to be more familiar with the messages my body was giving me. And I began to learn to honor those and then adjust my riding to better honor what my body was trying to communicate to me. So the big question for me was, how can I maintain a pro career and do really cool things? And I realized that I was doing a lot of cool things on my bike so I can continue earning a living without being at odds with my body's wisdom. I
just got an email this morning from a friend of mine that said the body writes checks that... Or sorry, the mind writes checks that the body can't cash. I love that. I
totally have heard that too. Yeah. And we can blow that. We can blow that early in life. Right. We pay for... We're in debt. Yes. For the rest of our lives. We're in debt for the rest
of our lives. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan, you're below what I... In your email there, the topics that you tackled in the webinar, I'd love to jump into those. The first one is, I can't... I'm so thankful no one's asked me this specifically. This sounds really simple, but this would be hard, really hard for me to answer. What exactly is a risk and what is a reward?
It's not that simple.
No, no, it's not. Just to talk about reward, the thing that comes to me in terms of that continuum is accuracy. I think that's really key because it becomes really mental. And again, we can... How we perceive risk is massively important. We might have a tendency to not gauge a risk as as... It's like we over-inflate the risk or we under-inflate the risk.
Sure, yeah. And so finding that accuracy is really key. I
see what you're saying. It's one, just identifying where it is on that spectrum.
Yeah. And it's not easy to do. It's
not easy to do because
there are so many other forces at play. There are other... Again, the cameras. We've got our friends and peers. We might have in mountain biking, we've got friends encouraging us at the bottom of the super technical, sketchy line that's got to drop halfway through and your buddy's just cleaned it. You've got another one at the top and you're trying to decide what to do. Should I take this risk or not? And then you just kind of like, ah, I can do it. And then you go for it. And who knows? Was that an accurate risk assessment or not? I'd be
interested to hear, why do we do it? We know there's risk. Your next thing you talk about in the webinar is mountain biking inherently risky. So I would think that's yes, but maybe not. For sure, flying is inherently risky. There are just inherent risks you can't get away from. It's aviation. And the ground is hard. But it's interesting. Why as humans do we do it? If we know there's a good chance of getting hurt.
Yeah. I mean, probably so many different answers depending on who you are. The useful thing here is to, no matter what the sport, aviation or mountain biking, to be at peace with the fact that injury is possible. And even for your sport, even death is possible. And that's the same in mountain biking. Random weird shit can happen that you can't account for, you can't prepare for. Equipment failure is, of course, no matter how particular you are with caring for your equipment,
failures can still happen. And that can result in catastrophes. And so we have to be at peace with that ahead of time. So we can just push, we just get that out of the way. We have to really contemplate that and be at peace with that. And then we can push that aside and then get into the, okay, what areas can we control? And in mountain biking, I really don't think it has to be a risky sport. You know, I do believe mountain biking can... It can be a lifelong sport for anyone who desires to ride well into their late years of life. And, you know, that's definitely my goal.
And that can be achieved very gradually. You know, you don't have to push your... You choose your trails wisely. You choose who you ride with wisely. And you get really intimate with who you are. You get really... You know, you get honest with you and your personality. And you start to, you know, obviously meditation, that's where that comes in. Because then you can start to look at yourself from that third-person perspective and catch some of these tendencies, these urges that are generally more surface-level oriented. They're more image-based oriented. They're more like, you know, ego-driven. And once you start to catch those, then...
You know, you start to see yourself as someone who's really passionate about pursuing the sport in a way that doesn't need to have injury as possible. That's a path. Some people may decide to choose to be at peace with injury based on choosing to take some risks. And that's cool too. And I think this is really cool because as a sport, there's going to always be those people who are willing... to sacrifice their physical well-being in their pursuit of progressing a sport. And this is the incredible journey of being this autonomous human physical being.
We have this curiosity of what we're capable of, this mind and body. And what we're seeing these days is just out of this world. The things that a mind can conceive... And I think of mountain biking, I'm watching what people are doing these days. And it's like, holy shit, you know, you can't even comprehend how that's possible. The chance of a rider pulling off some of these things is just astronomical. And it's only that deep belief that rider has in their ability and in their ability to, you know, perceive that line and know that they can do it, that it's even possible. You know, you can't... There's like, it's not... Mathematically, it's really not really...
It's not possible. But yet here we are discovering the limits of this mind, body, spirit vehicle. And it's really incredible to see. You know, I'm grateful for those people that are doing that. And, you know, so again, that's a spectrum. What are you comfortable with? What level of injury are you at? What are you at peace with? And based on that deal that you make with yourself will determine sort of how you approach your sport.
This is something that is happening also in every sport. You know, it's a phenomenally interesting time, I think, in sport where you have it in big wave surfing. You have it in flying. You have it in mountain biking. You know, the... The stuff we are seeing people do is, like you said, mind-boggling. You know, when I watch the Rampage, it's mind-boggling what these people are doing. And do you think that that's mostly being driven intrinsically or extrinsically? Do you know what I mean? Is that... Yeah, totally. Okay.
Totally. Is this
cameras? You know, are young kids seeing this on YouTube and going, you know, but it's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. What... It is. What people... And in a pretty short period of time, you know, just the ability level of... And, you know, I see it here. We've got an awesome park for the kids with the half pipe. I mean, it's world class. And, you know, I see kids that are 10 doing stuff that I would never imagine when I was 10 growing up ski racing. It's awesome.
But... Yeah. Yeah. I mean, both for sure. We want meaning in our life. And, you know... There's a huge... Like, I think of mountain biking, too. And the youth are watching what the adults are doing. And in a mountain culture, they're watching the adults do cool things and get praise. And there's a lot of meaning derived from that. And they see, okay, that's... Yeah, I see what this is all about. This is what I'm going to pursue. Because they... They want to achieve. And, you know, they get some results early on. They follow the path. And that just kind of creates this...
So, in this self-perpetuating culture, and it relies on both that internal and external force. Like, it's this momentum that's being created here. And the ability of this, like, social media and cameras. And the ability... The ability to share.
It really is just added fuel to this cycle of progression. And so, yeah, I mean, the internal is so key. It's got to be internal. Like, I look at, like, Rampage. And, you know... And I know those guys. A lot of those guys. The internal drive is real. It's true. You know, that's... You know, there's a deep vision and passion. And drive. If the cameras weren't there. If the sponsorship dollars weren't there. If the camaraderie. Like, the community as well. We're pack animals. We're, you know, we're social creatures. And being part of the meaning is being part of this community. And if you can be the top dog in that community, you know, that's a pretty amazing thing.
And so, there's that internal drive. Yeah, it's just really... Man, it's just... It's really happening right now. It's on fire. It's just got this momentum. I don't see that as a be-all, end-all. Like, again, you know, when I step back, it's like, gosh, like, what is... Again, you're asking the big questions. I think you're at kind of that phase of, is this the best we can do? Well, and
it feels to me a little bit. And this is only... I feel it in myself. That you're walking out to the end of the diving board and there's no water in the pool. You just keep...
Where I struggle is where is the end with that? These guys that rock it and rampage, you know, and they win. And they're at the top of their sport. And they're getting the camaraderie. They're getting the accolades. They're getting the sponsorship dollars. You can't keep that up forever. And so, you've got to... You sound like you, in your career, you have found a bridge to nature and contemplation. And, you know, good footing there. But I... For sure. I remember... It's
hard to get out of, though. Yes. It's not necessarily easy. And that's not just pros. That's your recreational riding crew and pack as well. Sure. The same dynamics are at play.
Yeah, you're right. That's a tricky one. I don't know if we can answer that now, but it's a tricky one. It's something I think about a lot.
Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, there is a point where, yeah, you've got to step off that cycle. Because we are... Our bodies, every moment we're aging, you know, these bodies aren't designed to last in that way. And sure, it's cool when you're, you know, in your 50s or 60s and 70s and you break through the norm. And, again, I think that's great. But it's got to be from that deeper place. It's got to be from that. You've transcended that game of... Trying to prove yourself in this measurable way to gain something. Especially if it's trying to gain something sort of tangible.
Yeah, gosh, you know, this conversation, it really makes me want to write a little bit more so I can articulate myself a little more clearly.
These are hard things to articulate, though. I mean, there's things that I think, you know, any of us who leap into things that have... Risk are thinking about. You know, if you're not thinking about it, you're just ignorant. And so you're thinking about it. But it's a hard thing to... It's an easy thing to think about. It's a hard thing to grasp.
So I'm actually expecting my first child. Whoa. Congratulations. You know, in, you know, basically, like, within the month. I'm actually a bit uncomfortable exposing my child to the... The high... Hype of the mountain bike industry. I don't necessarily... There's a lot of parents that are so pumped to get their child in mountain biking and really help them, you know, get good and go through the ranks and get in a competition. I'm not quite... You know, our child is going to be what it's going to be. It's going to choose its path. But, you know, I definitely am glad to bring an energy to expose my child to the energy...
Of the stage of mountain biking that I'm currently at. Because it's not necessarily something that the mountain bike culture and the mountain bike media give a lot of energy to. You don't see it. You don't see it on social... It's not... I mean, that's where social media... You just see the biggest, baddest, gnarliest or the crash. That's what you're exposed to. That's what's seen. And so I'm glad to be in... Like, to inhabit... The energy of this deep passion for riding my bike in nature, breathing, enjoying flow, not needing to push myself or prove anything. To go out mountain biking with friends and to have good conversation and to enjoy the views and to, you know, go on a big day.
And, you know, to be able to share in the experience. That true... That true... Sort of... That true nature of being on these wheels and propelling yourself through the forest. And to share that with my child and to... You know, I hope I can enjoy that mountain biking experience with my child as they grow through life. And, you know, maybe they will choose, you know, like most young people, they'll have a drive to achieve and pursue. And to... To push themselves and test themselves. And, you know, that will take them where it takes them. But I'm glad that I'll be able to give an example of where the sport can lead someone later in life.
Like, to have that example that, okay, it's not just, you know, go until you're a cripple. It's like, no, there's a way to navigate such that there's this long trajectory. There's this long trajectory of enjoyment and deep satisfaction from a sport like mountain biking.
Yeah, I can see your reticence. I had a little girl, my little girl's four now. And, you know, I'm not going to be that disappointed if she doesn't become a pilot. For sure. I'd be terrified. I will, you know, like you said, I will expose her to it. You know, if she wants to get into it, then great. But, man, I'd be terrified.
Very hard to watch that all happen. But... Yeah. On that note, one of your next topics here, what is risk perception? And you talk about the Whistler Bike Park phenomenon. You'll have to explain that to listeners that don't know it. But I know Whistler used to live there, so I think I know what you're talking about here. But go into that. Yeah.
Yeah, sure. And I talked a little bit about perception, risk perception earlier on. But Whistler Bike Park, I mean, any bike park, Sun Valley's got a bike park. The rider will go to the bike park. You know, this is just typical. General average kind of rider. They don't hit the bike park very often. Maybe they've got a three-day vacation up at the bike park. And, you know, they're just riding a ton. And they're just looping, looping, looping. And, you know, they're on their bike. They're on their bike. And, I mean, this actually gets a little closer towards sort of the aviation risks where you don't get that slow, gradual feedback. Instead, you're, like, on the list. The runs are faster. The airs are bigger and longer.
And the amount of riding you can get in in a short amount of time on meticulously designed trails that are designed to flow you beautifully into the air and the land. Everything's just so mint. And so the rider will just experience this rapid progression and experience a rapid growth of confidence. And so the rider will just experience this rapid growth of confidence. And so the rider will just experience this rapid growth of confidence. Until they take that big slam, which without the bike park would have been probably quite minor. But because of that Whistler bike park dynamic, that injury is more often than not much more catastrophic. You know, it is the separated shoulder, broken collarbone.
It's, you know, the, you know, broken arm, wrist, broken wrist, you know, and or worse. So that's what I mean. It's like this full stop. Sense of confidence. Yeah. It's, it's, it's this classic common thing. And it gets you.
Yeah. Yeah. We call that intermediate syndrome in our sport. You know, when you think you're better than you are and it's something everybody goes through, you know, and you, you know, you nail a few flights or, you know, you have some success, whatever that's defined by. And you haven't really gone through the steps to get. Get it. And then now you're in a dangerous phase. And it's right. It's something we all go through in that
journey. Totally. Yeah. And I, you know, that's what part of the reason I'm passionate about my, my business. So, you know, for the past seven years, I've run this online mountain bike skills, coaching business. And so basically it's these detailed step-by-step lessons that have practice drills that gradually increase sort of. The difficulty level while at the same time, helping you log hours on your bike, exploring all sorts of different bike body and mental movements. And so, you know, I really, that's what I, I really encourage riders to really take their time in the learning process and to, to experiment and get creative.
And that's something I think that can help riders. Avoid. That intermediate syndrome.
Yeah, that's great. We need the same kind of thing. There's some things like that in our sport, but it could be, I really liked the idea of taking it very much step-by-step. That's, that's important for sure. You just talked about this with your little one on the way, but how do responsibilities in life influence risk judgments and performance? This is a big one. Yeah. You know, I think. Yeah. We. We all have life. And. Mm-hmm. Distractions from flow and from doing what you're doing.
We've got responsibilities as we age, you know, some more than others. And. We have to determine what's important. And consciously think about this too. Again, it's part of that same negotiation I was talking about earlier. What level of injury are you at peace with? Yeah. And then from there, you can then, and, and part of that equation is your responsibilities in life. Right. Mm-hmm. And as an adult, you know, we do have those responsibilities and that, of course, for the, for the adult getting into a sport, that's going to affect how we progress and how we learn. It's, it's going to affect how quickly we are able to progress because one, you know, we might not be able to afford an injury.
And then two, we're. We're. You know, likely not going to bounce back from injury and, you know, those injuries are probably going to be worse because we're just not quite as quick and fluid at getting out of those tricky situations. And again, I'm talking more, more mountain biking, but maybe there are sort of similar things going on in aviation, but yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any way around it. We can lean on that beginner's mind. We can lean on sort of that childlike playful learning process. And bring it into our sort of adult ways, but we can't fully. Inhabit that part of our life. That's that's past that ship's past. If you're an adult, you know, um, you can't just pretend you're a teenager or a kid learning the sport.
Bounce
or bend out of something.
Yeah. It just, it, we need to, we need to honor the place that we're at. Mm-hmm. In our lives. Mm.
You've framed this as a riddle and this is truly a riddle. We talk about, you know, making the, the importance of making inexpensive mistakes in our sport. You know, you kind of hard to learn without making mistakes, but mistakes in aviation are not, you know, you don't want to make mistakes in aviation. Um,
but how
do you, how do you focus when not pushing your limits? This is a tricky one. I love it. You, you frame this as a riddle. That's, that's hard.
Yeah. How do you not? Not be
complacent in other words.
Yeah, totally. It is. It is interesting. Again, every part of our life is connected to every other part of our life. And we have busy, like we've busy minds. A lot of people have a lot of things on their mind. And when, when now riding the mind might be, might be racing. And, you know, so that of course inspires us to get a little bit more into that forced flow state. So we can get rid of. That internal dialogue just for a moment. And we can have that, that peaceful flow, even if it's not super peaceful, because we're just like going for it. Of course, when you stop pushing yourself and you're just riding like this easy part of trail, and then the mind starts getting busy.
That's that's often when riders make that stupid mistake and have a really bad injury. It's like, it's class again, it's one of these classic stories. That I hear time. And time again, I was just riding this easy bit of trail and, you know, I just like, I just wasn't paying attention and then boom. I mean, there's something. Okay. What's going on here? Why, why are our minds so busy? You know, can we, can we learn to orchestrate our lives such that there's less complication? What does that require? Does it require, you know, some, you know, some therapy? Does it require a meditation practice? Does it require. Some interpersonal work with our family or loved ones or, you know, does it, does it, what, what, what's needed here to get out of the stress cycle?
It's yeah, totally a tricky thing.
Yeah. It's funny. The two, the two good examples you've given have been my two mountain biking injuries. The first was on a downhill park here in sun Valley. Second lap, maybe it was the third. I'm not very good on a mountain bike. I was having a blast and I decided to try to double jump this thing and tire went out and went over the handlebars and blew my shoulder and it was incredibly painful. And the surgery is awful. And, you know, I, I grew up ski racing, so I've had a lot of surgeries. I've, you know, I've been there, this was a familiar place and, but that shoulder is bad and it was awful recovery. And it was a few years back and then a year and a half ago, I went out on the mellowest ride.
It was. So nice. And I was just talking to my buddy behind me and we were coming down this really gentle thing. I was literally going about five miles an hour and just wasn't paying attention, complacent. And again, lost the front tire, went over the handlebars and that one, luckily, you know, didn't end up being surgery or anything, but it was the same shoulder, um, hurt like hell. And, uh, and I thought in my mind, oh my God, I gotta go through this all again. And since then I haven't really ridden it. I just, for me, it was just, okay, the reward. Isn't worth this for me. I'm not very good. And I don't want to take any risk anymore with mountain biking.
It was just kind of a bummer because I live in a great place for mountain biking and it's, it's, I love doing it. It's great for the lungs. And it's like you said, it's great to connect with nature, but it's just, yeah, it was just a real slap in the face, you know, Hey, you're not. Not that good. And yes, it was those two things overconfidence on the first one and complacency on the second one. And that those two things get, I bet that's at the root of some huge percentage of our accidents in aviation.
Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Those two things.
Yeah. They correlate, I
think. And they're largely preventable. Totally.
Yeah. You know, they are large. Yeah. I think most. Not. Accidents are, yes. Most accidents are preventable. Aren't they? I mean, like you said, even in aviation, it's just a matter of, of what gets us as the weather. And that's probably not something that gets you as much, but it's, you know, the, the weather gets us getting into a situation where like running rivers, you can't hit a stop button. There are no breaks on what we have breaks, but we can't, we can't just go magically get out of the sky. When things get. Dicey.
And yeah. Yeah. And I guess each, you know, it's, how do you, how do you, how do you choose your flights, your flight paths, the, the, the, the weather patterns to gradually, gradually enter some of those more unknowns? Like, and it's not, I mean, I'm guessing it's quite, there's to gain that you, you know, the more time you've logged in the air and different places you start and the more time you have to log in, you know, you're going to have to log in. You know, the more time you've logged in the air and different places you start and the more time you have to log in. You know, the more time you've logged in the air and you're similar go-to spot, the more intimate you become with all of these patterns, the more easily you're able to read those patterns and the safer it becomes. But how do you, as someone newer gradually gain that experience? And so choosing so wisely, the, I mean, for mountain biking, you got to choose so wisely, the trails that you're on and the people you're riding with and aviation, you're choosing so wisely.
You know, hopefully. There's guidance, you know, you, you know, having that, that guidance from a professional or someone really experienced to help you make those choices. Okay. Yeah. You know, this is a great, this is a great launch spot location and weather. And so, yeah, this is a great next step. And so, you know, definitely seeking that, that guidance, not having to sort of reinvent the wheel and, and take risks, you know, to get yourself into a risky situation. That you didn't, you didn't even realize it was such a risk. Yes. But you all of a sudden you're in this situation where you're, you know, you're on this, this trail that got nasty or you're in this area with sort of, you know, the weather is working against you.
And so. Do
you, in your, in your webinars and your teaching, and we'll, we'll wrap this up with this one, Brian, this has been fantastic, but the, I'd be curious, do you talk much about. Kind of listening to that inner voice and what you, when it comes to risk.
Yeah, actually, I just, I, it's funny. I just made a post about this to my coach team yesterday. And in my courses, I build in, you know, there's an, there's instruction where of course you're more mental and you're working on a specific drill and it's really mental. And so I then ask riders to just let go of all those. Those specific movements and to do's and instead just let go and just, just play, just play on your bike. You know, you just no goals at all. And then that builds, it starts to build. You have to build your own authority within yourself, right? You've got to, you've got to start to trust yourself.
You've got to trust going out and on your bike and noticing. When something. Feels right. And when something doesn't feel right and you can't rely on the coach, you can't rely on the instruction. You have to begin to really own that yourself. I
always think about animal house, you know, you've got the devil in the, in the angel on each shoulder and you know, which one are you listening to at the right time? You know? Yeah. But I think there's often, there's kind of internal. Safekeeper who's looking after us. And. Mm-hmm. And I don't mean. I
don't mean
in a religious way or something, but I mean in a, in just a. There's something in there that knows. You know? Yeah, totally. And learning how to listen to that when it's rational versus irrational is a hard thing. Sometimes there's just totally irrational fear that doesn't have any basis on the day. The weather's good. There isn't, you know, that's just our brains messing with us. Yeah.
We can, we can stop and assess with that sort of verbal sort of dialogue about whether. You know, whether something is, is risky or not, whether we should go or not, whether we should launch or not, we can sort of have that. English communication in our head about it and discussion, but the layer deeper is the knowing.
And that knowing, I don't think necessarily is reserved for someone with experience. We can. We can have that early on. Something doesn't feel right. It's that sense. And, you know, honoring that is really important. And often that's something it's easy to ignore. We then weaken that response. Right. It's like we, we, we, it started the next time. We might. Be less likely. Again, to, so how do you, how do you start to build trust in that deeper? Knowing I think is, is really key and it's tricky because often that.
Yeah. We w we want to want to build that trust. And if we have a few wrong, if we make a few wrong calls, you know, we might get a little disoriented in that.
Yeah. That relationship gets severed.
Yeah. Somehow it gets, yes. It gets severed. Yeah. Personally. I find this kind of conversation really. Really inspiring and useful. It's the kind of stuff I really enjoy chatting about. And I'm, I'm grateful that you got in touch to, to riff about all this kind of stuff. I think it's important. Yeah,
man. Fun riff. And I, I really appreciate it. I think that's a perfect place to wrap it up. You've left me with a lot of things to contemplate as, and, you know, those are good conversations to have. So, uh, thanks Ryan. Thanks for watching. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I
hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that.
I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. I hope that I've served some of that. word. You can blog about it on your own website or share it on social media. You can talk about it on the way out to launch with your pilot friends. I know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way. And of course you can support us financially. This show does take a lot of time, a lot of editing, a lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind the scenes costs. So if you can support us financially, all we've ever asked for is a buck a show. And you can do that through a one-time donation through PayPal, or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out. We put a new show out every two weeks. So for example, if you did a buck a show and every two weeks, it'd be about $25 a year.
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