Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. A couple brief little things of housekeeping here before we get into the show with Veso, one of my favorites, and you're going to love this one. I don't typically, I get contacted by a ton of people asking if I could put their event into the podcast, and I'm always very resistant to that because so many more people would do it. I don't like to use the platform for advertising. So I apologize in advance to all of you who have asked me to do that. And I've said no to because I'm about to do it for myself. But I guess if it's my own events, then I get a pass. Just two quick things. We're doing the second X Red Rocks this September.
Applications are now open as the biggest purse, prize purse, second only to the X-Alps. 5,000 for first in the pro class, and down from there we had an awesome event this year. It takes place at the end of September this year; it's September 30th through October 1st. If you want to find out more, it's kind of a three-day stage race modeled after the Eiger Verco, Borns to Fly, and those, but it was, is by far the biggest in North America, and it was a blast last year. And we're already ramping things up with a whole bunch of new sponsors and some cool stuff this year, so check it out if you want to take part in that. We're going to be bringing a bunch of the big name international athletes over to this one, and it's going to be a hoot.
Monroe is an amazing place to fly and just awesome that time of year. Super reliable xredrocks.com is where you can find out more information about that. And the other one is we've got a US Nationals slash pre-PWC all lined up, same place, Monroe, Utah, September 10th to 17th. That just went live on Air Tribune and Civil, and registrations will start for that April 1st. So if you're wanting to fly some big, high, huge distance tasks in a race-to-goal format in a beautiful part of the world and right by far the most reliable place we fly out here in the Intermountain West, that's just kind of sandwiched in between Bryce and Escalante and Dinosaur and all those magnificent national parks out there in Utah.
Check that out. The Red Rocks Wide Open. This is, I guess I'm becoming an event organizer without planning any of that. So check those out. It'll be a lot of fun. My guest today, Vesso Avgera. We haven't done many shows as a repeat, but I had to get Vesso back onto the back onto the show. His history is, of course, acro; that's what got him on with Red Bull, and he's got a fantastic website, Flying the Earth. He is the inventor, creator of the what is the harness? 3Rs base harness. So it's got a base harness but acro harness where it has two reserves and cutaway base rig. It's really forward-thinking and fantastic, and the acro pilots are really loving it.
We're hoping—we talked about that—and hoping to get some crossover over with that into cross country, but I reached back out mostly to talk to Vesso about his XC. He has really been chasing that lately. He won X contest this year, no small feat with all the pilots around the world chasing it so hard, in an awesome stint down in Brazil this last season, which got him on top of X contest, and he's just smiling, awesome energy. I just love Vesso, and he... He is more articulate than I am when it comes to his second language in English. So we had a blast with this. We talked about cross country and acro and his infinite world record and a whole bunch of other stuff and his harness, which is amazing. And a lot came out of this.
We dove into some fun areas, and I think you're really going to enjoy it. So enjoy this chat, the second chat with Veso Ovcharov, Red Bull athlete. Cheers.
Veso, man, it's good to see your smiling face. and, uh, and, and catch up. It's been a while since our first show. I've been wanting to do this for a long time. And the timing is perfect is I just had to watch you guys do all these epic, epic racing and jumping off buildings in Dubai. You know, I was supposed to be there with you all. And I had to pull out at the last minute and man, I had some serious at the beginning. I was kind of, you know, when I saw that first ramp with all the gaps and I saw pals comment that, oh, God, someone's going to die, I thought, oh, okay, I made the right decision. But then, man, you guys made it look good. That looked so nice in that evening flight when it wasn't the race anymore, when everybody just went for a boat around the sky in Dubai. Man, that looked good.
I had some serious FOMO going on last week.
Same, same, Gavin. It's so nice to hear you, to see you, and it's been a long time. I'm also very inspired from all the adventures you've been doing and in following them closely, it's all right. I mean, we're still lucky to be able to follow this dream, even with all the restrictions nowadays. And according to Dubai, that was definitely one of the craziest and most funny things for the year for me. I was also not sure, especially for the physical part. I had a little minor injury, the first one after more than 20 years of flying. It came so silly for me on a simple landing, simple landing, hurt myself from the bush. It was a metal there get to my leg, you know?
So is that down at the world? Yeah, that was just the end of August actually, in the end of the summer, and I missed the World Cup in Turkey. And then I was barely ready for for Dubai and was like, "Wow, I can fly with this leg, let's see." But in fact, was not the leg, you know, which troubled me, was the breathing because, uh, even the part of the physical part was so short, was so intense that I'm not—you're used to the sprint version of exercise. I'm more of a, you know, long, uh, slow walk with a weight on the shoulders, like we used to hike, you know? But that was really a sprint discipline most of the time, and, uh, I almost fear for a heart attack. It was so intense in the stairs, and it was like, you don't hear the alarm in my head, like, and almost blacking out, like, "Oh no, nobody around even to help me," some people behind...
the, I, I was not last, but still, I felt like so alone there, so in danger. And then the thing, you know, and I mean
Some of you guys who really aren't, you know, all the time in the in the really hike and fly racing space, uh, you guys held your own, you know, Mickey Siegel and uh, Seb Espina, and you know, I was impressed. It looked just viciously fast. This guy sent me, a guy that listens to the the podcast all the time, who was there, I think, helping with media and stuff. He sent me a video. He was running along with Chrigel one day, and I don't think I've ever seen Chrigel look that that winded, you know? He was, he wasn't smiling, he was throwing down hard, and every, it just looked, I wouldn't have done well there. I mean, I think I would have enjoyed the flying and the building stuff and that kind of thing, but I don't have that move either, you know? I'm close to 50, I can't sprint with those guys.
It looked fast. It
Actually, it's incredible. Krieger was not top performing in the first two days, but he outstamped overall everybody and, uh, you know, I think was, uh, for me was very entertaining because even with the serious difference between the ability, the physical part, I could still be around these guys, you know, and share the moment with them, which was very amazing. And he make a smart move; he make a suggestion to the organization not to put the take off of the building as a competition part because someone will rush it and we will see something really nasty there. The potential was there and, and they go agree that was really a vital moment that make the the flying way more pleasant and way more, uh, accepted acceptable even with the crazy condition because there's no competition element there and was really funny and, uh, that was some hard moments that I turned my head and I was thinking to catch the elevator when people were just running with basically no wind or really backwind and hopping into the leap, you know, the glider works, you know, but they use it more of a jumping device than take off I
was lucky. What I attempted was kind of okay, oh
Man, some of those launches, I mean, it was fabulous. The media they did was really incredible, you know? You could see a lot of it, and uh, and then, you know, following all you guys on Instagram and seeing the videos and the launches, they're still coming out now. It just, man, it looks pretty tense. I mean, you know, I don't have a huge fear of heights, but standing, you know, a foot from that drop-off doing a cobra was... you must have had your heart, must have been racing, buddy. That just looked dicey.
That was actually the biggest surprise, when we thought we are done with the sketchy part and we, we see the condition get better and was kind of coming front front from the building and was clear that we're going to soar there and was like, "Okay, let's go and just take off." But it was a pretty nightmare because the, the, the rotor was so strong, was not allowing you with a few steps there on the short takeoff to, to pump the glider. You know, we were trying and trying and, and the only option eventually was just taking off from the really edge with the cover style. I was shitting my pants there because I'm normally on the edge with a parachute that it's folded and it cannot be compromised, but the cobra lunch there, it could go wrong. You know, there is a case that can go wrong and it was very emotional and, uh, very special to be part of this event, for sure.
Yeah,
And and the, you know, the dune flying out in the, uh, out in the desert, uh, you know, one I'd love to get some clarification if it's not too uncomfortable. I, I didn't understand, you know, I was on your guys' WhatsApp group, so I could see all the back and forth that was going on that, you know, the public wasn't privy to. What was the negativity stuff that was going on and what happened with Chrigel's last day? He put up a post that, you know, because he was really, he and Tange were really in the lead and he was in good position going into the last day. And from what I could tell from the live tracking thing and the media thing, He got a little jump on him at that, on that second flight. Uh, and then he ended up last, and it sounded like it was a decision of...
I, I didn't understand it. I don't think anybody else did either. He put up a post that said, "Hey, I just, I wasn't really, I didn't really understand how to, how to absorb." And because you guys were taking some heat for running, having an event in Dubai, but I, I never saw any of that stuff. I dug around, I couldn't find the comments that you guys were talking about. What, what was happening there? Um...
I would like to start from the early on a bit, because that was the last day in in general. We were all very impressed and, uh, and surprised and pretty loaded with the challenge every single day, because the challenge was different and we thought that the building is the most difficult one, in the sketchy one. But then we had the canyon before the dunes, before for the place you mentioned for the goal, and the canyon was also pretty interesting and we thought it's going to be kind of boring and and really simple, but everyone have choose different strategy and was very interesting, very entertaining, very very difficult to to hike this mountain twice. I did this mistake to attempt hiking it twice, but it was amazing.
We could do glides like over 20 20 kilometer in a lee side over incredible ridges. Was very exciting because everyone, almost everyone, reached the goal and was a really good setup of the locals. Then with the the moment with the mountain, which is kind of rising from the dunes, but we're more or less flying in a small mountain, which is very sharp. Actually, it's even tricky to walk there, that's the stones are sound like a glass when you drop a small rock there. It's very very kind of volcanic, strange mountain, very sharp. And we were basically soaring in this mountain with a pretty mellow condition, but sometimes when the wind is more from the left or more on the right, all these small ridges create turbulence.
And we were, in fact, racing full bar for an hour, sometimes even more across these ridges, really low. Sometimes you realize you don't have time to recover from a major collapse, you know. know, and uh, it happens to have two accidents there. Two, two guys had a crash, uh, but as well was, was a personal decision. You know, no one is telling you to do that, but if you want to follow the herd movement or your blind eye, it could be bad card, you know, and it plays bad for some of us. Steve, uh, hurt himself, and I think the Mexican guy as well. Yeah, that was pretty dicey and spicy, and And we had a challenge with too many points. I also got lost in the last day.
I didn't realize what's happening. And I was just 50 meters lower than the first group with them. And then I realized we're not landing there. And I have to go back and clear a high voltage, like 10,000 volts. And I think I did a pretty good decision. But still, I cleared it with less than 10 meters. So there was a lot of things that can go wrong there. And they went wrong for some of us. Like Aaron wrapped the tree that took him hours to take just the glider out of the tree, he lose the leadership. He could have win the event, and then the the last day with the thing, that mistake that happened with Krieger, we can judge different ways, but we never really know exactly. But I, I have a, I had the feeling that he just, uh, give a chance to the youngster to to to take their best position, which was very sportive, because he see the ranking was changing very hectic, and he was in fact appearing on top of the ranking by some lucky circumstances as well.
And I thought he just want to keep it that way, and not winning it on the other way. He's such an
Ambassador, isn't he? Yeah, he's amazing. It doesn't surprise me; he's really amazing. He's so giving, he's so, yeah, open, open with all of his information. He really wants everybody to be good and better, and he's really, uh, yeah.
It's a fatherly figure.
I think he's become, isn't he? I mean, even to even people who are older like me, he's just so helpful. Every time I've ever reached out to him, it's—he's always accessible. I just, yeah, I get more and more impressed with Chrigel every year. Exactly. Stellar, stellar athlete.
Especially one of the days when I got lucky to to get in a heading position in front of everybody, because the first group were a bit more aggressive and they just bombed out in front of us. And then I was leading for kind of 20 minutes or something like, "Wow, these guys have to hike and then try to catch me." And then I suddenly, after a few way points, I still see Chrigel from below overtaking me, like how that is even possible? I'm on full bar constantly and I didn't bomb out, and he had to hike a mountain and take a better line and fly faster, and he did that and he won that day. It was amazing. And then the other, the other way that we could read that, I hear comments that he mistake as well, one of the tag he mistake to tag one of the turn point, but then I don't know, I don't know what's the really reason.
There were some people telling me there was many, uh, bad political messages, uh, to the French team, why, why they're there and contributing to this event. I didn't get any of this negative feedback. And in general, I think these guys had a very positive intention and they did really expand the vision of the sport and the experience of these athletes, including me. I was really, really lucky and very grateful to be part of this. But of course, there is always political power that can throw a shadow on everything. I try not to focus on that part. I hope his decision was not based on political aspects. And I believe that his act was more of a sportsman reward to the young generation coming back so strong, coming forward so strong.
Well, it must've been, it must've been terrific. You know, my, my friend Logan went over and was, you know, he's got kind of ex-Alps aspirations and stuff. And I think it must've been, I mean, you were in the cream of the crop in terms of the, you know, the hike and fly crew these days. I mean, you know, Maxime wasn't there. Paul wasn't there. There were some big names that weren't there. But for the most part, you know, really strong crew. And it just looked like the vibe was amazing. And I would imagine, you know, you got to see some of those guys. I mean, even in a very different environment, obviously, than the Alps and the X-Alps. But just how these guys perform, you know, this last X-Alps was, they're all an eye opener, you know, but this last one for me, I trained so hard for this last one.
I knew it was going to be my last one. And I really put everything into it. I have with the other ones too, but from the physical side, because, you know, I just, I knew I can't catch up with these guys from the flying side. They fly all the time too. So, you know, I, I, anyway, my point is there, especially these young guns, they're so good and they're so fast and they're so capable on the ground. You know what I mean? Tangay's a beast. And, you know, he did that 13,000 something plus meters in a day this year. And he's a really good pilot. like Chrigel told me in the, right after the prologue this year, that he saw him do things in the Bourns to fly that he and Maxine couldn't do. You know, he, he was pushing into wind, a crazy amount of wind and just kind of fish up streamed, lost his glider through his reserve, landed, packed it up in 10 minutes and kept going.
It was just a total non-event. It is.
Definitely was a humbling experience to spend time with these guys because I only, follow them online. I didn't really get to know them, uh, in the near years and, but for me, it was impressive to see how, how, uh, next level they are in everything, you know, in, in every aspect of the flight, of the preparation, of the strategy, all the moves they did and the, the energy they had is just, you know, uncomparable. I, I don't have, I think, the, the chance to, to measure the physical part. I, I, I just should play better, you know, with the combination of these two. And that was the reason I participated. If it was X-Helps, I would not have any chance. I would not really sign. But this was a small physical part that allowed me to mix up with these giants.
And for me, it was a very humbling, very humbling experience.
Since last we talked, Vessel, you were pretty hardcore and acro the last time we talked. Since we talked, you broke the Infinity record, but your focus seems to have switched more heavily into XC. You won X contest this year, which is an amazing feat. You spent last fall down in Brazil and had a whole bunch of big ones, and you just were down at the Worlds. fields. Uh, how did—what's happened with this transition? Is that just kind of the natural flow, or was that—did that just happen? Kind of, you just had more focus on XC because it was fun? Or tell me about it.
This, this, this interesting transition, I can just call it life. You know, it's... I, it was not really planet. It was kind of a natural thing because as more as I was, uh, obsessed with the accro, as less I had the time and access to practice it properly. And then I started the company as well with the, with the harness, which is just hanging here behind me, you know? And, uh, it's as much as I really wanted to train, there was no time. And, you know, I'm based in Sofia, so I have to be always on travel, and that was kind of the reason that naturally shift me to cross country. Cross country is more accessible without such a big demand, you know, to spend the time. You know, I can use the, the experience from the past to, to help me to fly good, he said.
And I did that in Brazil. We were so lucky with pal to explore the possibilities once again In corona times, we were there having the time of our life. You know, the world was almost shut down; we were welcome, warm from any, from every family there. We land in the middle of nowhere, you know how it is there. That was so special, and there was a couple of good pilots, but not many pilots, so that was also one of the reasons, probably, allow me to to go on the top of the ranking fxc contest, which was still not—it was not a plan back then, but just happened. And I was very happy, you know, know my dream was to to cross 500, and it was so hard. That year was not easy; we didn't have winds. It was just a few days, and I bombed out in the most beautiful day of my life ever since I fly was like so good.
We were moving with a better, uh, checkpoints than the world record, so it was logically that we're gonna have something big in the basket, but then I bombed out in the best looking sky in 12 o'clock, you know, in 300 kilometer, like it was so painful. And my buddy Paul and Maurice, the German pilot, they continue, but way more conservatively after this bomb out. They, they get stressed a bit, and they keep a different line to score a declarate goal as well. So they missed the 600, probably that day, which, which was possible ago, and I had to overcome mentally this trauma and go exhausted on the way back, almost in the middle of the night, have just a few hours sleep, and try again on the next day, completely alone.
Man, that was so funny. Nobody wants to take off with me. Was getting late, it was almost eight o'clock, really blue, no wind. I was like, "What the heck I'm doing?" But it's my last day of really a, a chance that then the forecast was shit and everyone was leaving, so, and my myself as well, and I try, and I think that's the, the example of how powerful can be the human brain wave of desiring something. I, I believe that sometimes we have a little part of this creation because the day was really no nonsense, was pathetic day, and in, and I was crawling over the ground, super slow, low, with a late takeoff, and then suddenly the condition just explode, explode like in the fairy tale, and I could go so fast, like, like a, like an angry dog, you know, like full gas, leaving, leaving every thermal, which is less than six meter, and I'll just surfing the convergence with very little turning for more than 200 kilometer, and then suddenly I compensate the late start and all of that, and I realized find myself in a proper position to, to have a 500, and it was very emotional, very rewarding, because many people believe in me and send me positive messages.
And and I think all that create the magic, and I got my best flight in the last day of the staying. I was like, "It's crazy because it's the three time in the row I've been three times chasing big flights in Brazil, and I get my best flight in a similar situation," which is kind of rare, but same time they have a statistic and this guy always told me people make their best flight in the first day or in the last day, and I'm like, "Oh, okay. Well, okay." And it's playing the same for me for three times, you
know, I... I think it's wrong for us to have these checkpoints when we're going for big distance because Larry Tudor, the dark Prince taught me something years ago before I went down to Texas. He said, you know, I was asking him, you know, cause he'd spent a lot of time in Zapata and trying to break the record there. And, and he'd done it from Hobbs way back in the day. And I said, Hey, you know, what's the secret, you know, cause it's, it's, it's such a waiting game. It's not like Brazil in Texas, you know, Texas is as a, there's a lot more waiting around and And it's brutal. It's hot and there's nowhere, there's nothing to do. And it's tough. It's a tough waiting game. And he said, you have to try every day. Don't pay attention to the weather. You have to give it a shot, give it a try.
And I still kick myself. Our very first attempt there, again, like you said, first day, I was with Donajete. And he's the king, right? He's the king. He's been with those guys, the Brazilian team to break the record. I don't know, three or four times. And, you know, it was, it was just a little bit slower start than what he would have liked. And so we were 160 K out in man, the sky was epic and he decided not let's save our energy. Let's go land. And, uh, it took over an hour to get to the ground. It was just hoovering and windy and it was sketchy trying to get to the ground. I just kept thinking, man, man, it'd be a lot easier to just, you know, and we had some overdevelopment to, to win, you know, to win word.
So we would have been getting chased by that, but it was dicey. And we ended up landing next to a prison and we almost got arrested and, and it was just traumatic and ended up taking more energy to just get to the ground that it would have been to just fly another 200 K and, and had a pretty good day. So would we have broken the record? Who knows, But I still kick myself for that because you never know. When you read Will Gad's – the day before – or was it the day after? The day before he got the record was even better apparently. And, you know, the day he got the record, he was late and, you know, he wasn't really in a very good headspace and, and it wasn't very good conditions and it was blue and all these things.
And then boom, nine hours later, he's got the record or wherever it was. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think we have to hang in there. It's, it's hard because you're always balancing this. Well, if I go and I get back late and then tomorrow it's going to be tough, but it seems like you just got to give it a try. yeah
I mean, probably logistically in Texas, the situation is different, and that can, you know, make you choose this strategy. In Brazil, it's quite easy to to try almost every day. First, the weather is way more consistent, and the retrieval is so getting more efficient every year. You know, these guys are getting bigger cars, faster cars, which is actually crazy. On the way back, sometimes you feel in a greater danger than than the flight. Yeah, but we were trying like this, you say. Every day I had two, two times like three days in a row without sleep, more than 400, almost every time. I remember one of the landing, I land and I couldn't make step, I fall like a bag of potato, and I was like, "What?" Like, I was looking for some dark force which pushed me on the ground, but it was just no more battery, you know?
And and I think only the desire for such a, you know, Adventure can drive you through such an exhausting phase. Otherwise, if you have to be paid to do that or any other reason, I think you wouldn't make it. We were like mad junkies about this. It was a crazy experience.
Yeah, I think that's maybe one of the misunderstandings about chasing these records. At least for me, I found that you have to go in with the mindset that you're going to work. It ain't going to be easy. It's tough. You know, it's long days, long nights, early mornings, a lot of wind, you know, there's usually a lot of stress involved with the launch and stuff. I've never done the, the Keiko, you know, that area. I've never done the towing. I've only done Tesima and, you know, I'll tell you Tesima was, was hardcore. I was back when they were usually using that as the, as the start and, you know, the weather reports, the forecast meant nothing literally, you know, so you had to try every day and and you're getting out there in the dark and, and the launch is sketchy, you know, it's really windy and you know, the chance of getting blown back is pretty high.
And it's just, it's just brutal. You know, you see a lot of carnage and so that's stressful. And then, and then you, you get up and if you get established there, you kind of wait until you get a little bit higher and then you got to clear a 40 K plateau right on the deck. You know, it's just super low and the cloud base early in the morning is never high cause you're quite close to the ocean. And, you know, It's just 90, it seems like. I think when they did the record in 2015, they were there for 39 days and flew three, you know? So, I mean, it's most of the time you're back at the hotel by 8:00 a.m., you know? Even if you had a flight, you're back at the hotel at 8:00 a.m. There's no internet, there's nothing to do, it's not great. It is like, man, ah, it's
Brutal, it's brutal. The filter there is too, too big, as you say. The the statistic, it's it's uh really not fun. Uh, I think even now that the the number is raising to 600 plus in the states, which is amazing and huge respect hat downs for for the guy and for everyone who helped him. It's really amazing, but now I think the Brazilians and all the foreigners that go there, even if I go there myself again, I think we should try to fly uh something between Quixadá and the towing area around Rio Grande and Norte Azul and Caico. Because starting closer to the sea, you have to pass the plateau still because the 600 plus is over the plateau, even starting from the ocean, you know, from Tocima.
So, meaning that you're arriving with the last bit of conditions in almost in a pitch black with a thousand meter plateau is really, is very complicated. I think it's way better to use the plateau as a trampoline, you know, to use it to arrive like around 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock when it's really still pumping and then continue to 100K or after the plateau. This is, I think, the better chance for Brazil to believe to cross 600. But don't
you, if you start further in, won't you run into the jungle?
No. A friend of mine, Leonardo Padua, he flew, I think, with the Aspen 450 and from the Quixadá and also with the Enzo II, he flew 485 from the takeoff of Quixadá. Yeah. So there's still some room to work there. So if you come like
200K east and start, I see what you're saying. and so between Quixadá instead of
making 220k before Kishada, you have to make just 110 maybe, and then continue with a with a really high altitude cloud base and really sweet conditions, rather than surviving early morning close to this madness to the sea, and then still arriving with uphill terrain. That's, I think, the only trick is you will need a really windy day because Because the big bonus starting close to the sea that you have the strong wind, which is from one side terrifying, but from other side gives you the kilometers. So you have to have a really strong day that is having wind already from the inland, pretty serious wind. But there are some days with such a condition.
hmm
You said before we started recording, uh, that this last year, I don't know, probably because some of it because of corona and just travel and that kind of thing, but um, you kind of went inward. You know, you—you had the Brazil stuff last fall, and then you, because it was hard to do comps and stuff up this year, um, you spent some more time just jumping, which you called very stress-free. I find that hysterical. So, jumping off cliffs is just kind of taking it easy. It's a
Therapy for me, it's like, you know, my kind of, uh, you know, meeting the the service that straighten your, you know, mind for me. Jumping is doing this job, but yeah, in general, I felt realistically, uh, quite distant from my normal schedule and from my goals to compete on a world level in a few disciplines, but mainly acro. I didn't have time to train and because of the development of the harness, I lose a lot of training hours in front of or behind of the guys. I didn't try to catch up. I just liked the stage I am and I decided to give some peace of mind and just hike the mountain, not use use thermals, use my own legs because I'm getting older, we're not getting younger.
And I wanted to earn every meter in the mountain with my two legs and then, of course, take the cherry and jump from the mountain. That was my therapy for months. I was very inspired and ready, standby to fly cross country. I had my Enzo, spent like two months almost in the car, but couldn't register on time for the comps. and I had to move through the schedule somehow still and I couldn't catch the good days for flying. I was about to catch up with Timo, which is, by the way, one of the most impressive cross country birds rising so young and so good already. Who? He was doing some with Timo, who is now winning the XC contest by a record number.
This year he smashed it completely. He makes so many big flights, and he's so young, so I was about to join him last summer there, but it was always some complication with the travel with the corona. I was trying to stay closer to the to the accru gang, you know? I sponsor them now, I support them a bit with the harness, they help me with the R&D, and I just start to feel a different center of gravity for me now. It's no, it's not about proving anymore more anything; it's more about, uh, contributing and enjoying and sharing with the community.
And how does it work with Red Bull now? Is it if you're, if you're not competing in acro, is that, is that part of the contract or they don't really care? Is it more just, um, you know, because you're, you're still out there capturing great content? And I don't know where you get all these great pictures from. You got somebody in your back pocket taking all these cool shots all the time? You're awesome to follow on, on Instagram. I, I love it. I'm not a big social media fan in general, but, but I sure like following you on Instagram.
Thanks for the last, Gavin. Yeah, definitely. I'm lucky to have some friends with a really good eye and motivated to hike all these mountains. Some crazy friends from Bulgaria with strong legs are responsible for the good images. And in general, for Red Bull, there is no really direct pressure, but of course they are requiring you to be on a high level and to be engaged to a competition scene. And I'm trying to do that as a shift to the cross country, but I present myself very poorly this year because I come with no training straight from Brazil, like more than one year, almost no flying before Argentina. You know, it was a bit naive to expect the high result because you need to tune up your head. You know, technically we are good, but just the way of the competition flying is very specific.
And I was a bit down from that, that I couldn't rank myself properly. but I see that my skills are enough to rank myself good if I don't make silly mistakes, you know. And that was still a very good motivation for me and belief that I can shift my career more to cross country. Just less demanding and the flight is kind of a bit more rewarding when you don't train so much and you receive such an amazing flight. You know, for a crew to receive amazing feeling, you need to train. Otherwise, you will scare yourself or hurt yourself.
Yeah, it's a bit—it's just a bit more easy for me to keep up, you know, with the world class. And now I get this new inspiration from the hike and fly. I don't know if I ever joined the elite, but I'm really trying to keep myself more fit and paragliding world class level, at least for distance flying, you know, for projects. And we'll try to do some high mountain now in combination nation with flying. It's all about exploring new territory and mixing it up, capturing it good with the story inside. I think, in the end, that's very important for Red Bull and for all the sponsors I have luckily, yeah.
It'd be fun to see you and and some of the, you know, the the other hike and fly races and my my buddy Ben, who's supported me and all the X-Ops thus far, four of them. He's he's just signed up for the Dolomiti, you know, in August and, uh, you know, some of that stuff. I I I'd like to, you know, the X-Alps, I think, is just too much for me now going forward, but I'd love to still participate in some of the smaller, shorter events. They're still very intense, but they're, uh, you know, the Eiger and the Verco and that stuff just looks so fun.
Exactly, and the vibe was different. As as a new newbie there, I could see the difference because I've been joining so many in the past events in acro and in cross country. There, you know, the vibe sometimes is fluctuating, you know, it could be stressful for most of the guys, you know, who have ambitions and go and failing them and so on. But, but in the hike and fly, no matter what was your ranking, everyone was smiling and positive till the end. Was kind of a really, a joyful experience of the sort of we are chasing in our projects, you know, it was really different. I don't know if it's like this in xl, but that was, was very touching for me to experience to explore, yeah.
It, it is a, it is a neat community, isn't it? And especially in something like the X-Ops, we all kind of know we're going to war, and and it's dangerous going to war, and you, you know, everybody's kind of looking out for everybody. You know, it's, it's a real, it's—I had this beautiful experience with, uh, Laurie, Laurie, when she, when she, she got I really scared, uh, um, for out of when she left, uh, Lairmoose and had to throw a reserve and, uh, to miss these high tension power lines. And I had this beautiful moment with her and Fiche at the Fiche turn point when she decided to just, that was, that was it for her that she was, she'd had an amazing race and, you know, just seeing her, her eyes and just feeling this kind of, um, relief of the stress.
And I don't know, it—I'm not describing it very well, but you know, we're all in this. We're all in this experience together. We're having very different experiences, but you're all in it together. And most of the time, the X-ops, you're alone. You're very rarely with anybody else. But um, but it's, uh, yeah, it's special, yeah.
I can say the same for me; was absolutely the same. Very inspiring, and very everyone is engaged and looking after each other, as you said. And I'm, I'm very looking forward to join some future smaller events like this that will enable me to keep up at least a little bit with the best, because they are so ahead, man. They're like machines. I cannot even understand how the body can work so well, but I guess they've been practicing before.
Yeah, the level is just – it's on a curve that I can't keep up with. It's really impressive. Tell me about your harness. I got a good look at it from Dylan Benedetti. I did a bunch of acro training with him this spring, getting ready for the race out in California, and he showed me your harness. It looked wicked, but describe it. For those who aren't aware of it yet, it's sitting next to you there, but cool piece of kit, man.
Yeah, this harness was born purely from a desire to have the perfect seat, the perfect harness for what we do, for the safety, for the comfort, for all the special parts that the industry was kind of negligent about because they're not really necessarily related to any profit. And that puts me to this naive project. It took me almost three years with the hard work of four or five friends around me, countless hours of R &D and testing and making prototypes. prototypes and now we can say that we have something very complete and still improving but now the harness you can see it hanging here it has a really solid structure very comfortable
Support from every side is not going to hurt your body from pushing any hard maneuver, and you can customize it in a different style of flying, but normally conventional harness will will not support. And of course, having the three rescue parachute was a dream, not only having three of them, but also having them in a different position because sometimes, you know, when we're in the lines in a dangerous situation, you don't have access if you're wrapped around your legs, even if you have two under your legs. So we have all the parachute in different position, which give additional safety feeling for the head. You know, it has a good better balance distribution of the weight, better protection, because if you hit without the rescue deployment, it's still like a protector.
They have many many extras; it's a long talk to to involve every extra, but in general, was something created from a pilot to the pilots without any commercial intention. And of course, now we're trying to sell some of them to to support this project further. On the idea is to support these athletes, the acro athletes, in a real level, like giving them the best equipment and being able to use their knowledge and expertise to expand the the functionality and safety of this product, because many time, you know, the industry sometimes support athletes, but they can have kind of shallow relation, you know, and the development is not really boosted properly by the athletes, which can happen, you know, we see that in all the other sports which are with more money involved, of course, somehow it's easier for this guy, but for us it's been always a gap between the industry and the needs, you know, and the knowledge in the athletes.
So now we want to merge this boat and be on an infinite journey for improving this kind of equipment, spreading it in a different discipline, discipline as well, making for cross country in the near future, making active protection system, you know, just being very close to the interest of the pilots, and we hope that we can sustain financially this project going and
It's got the whole cutaway system, correct? The one in the center is kind of a base rig, yes.
We, we really experiment a lot, but now we come back to the conventional, traditional, uh, three-ring mechanism, which is actually patent from the 40-something, now is free to everyone to use. The only thing that this system is lacking is the special ring carabiner that doesn't exist yet in the industry. We use this, uh, kind of good-looking shackles that are fitting well, but they are still thicker and too much strong that what we, we don't need to be so thick, you know? We're preparing to have our own carabiner, especially made as a proper ring with a separate shoulder for the riser on top, that will really give the, you know, the icing on the cake, you know? We have many things to polish you
Think you can, you can cross this technology over into a pod set up too? It'll be a, it'll be a cross country option as well.
Yes, yes, definitely for, for the, the peace of mind. Well, I think it's good to have it in the cross country, but I think it's more of, you know, cross country like when you're pushing on your own, not really to give you additional safety for a gaggle flying, because I was thinking so much about the risk and the safety of the gaggle flying. But then, then it's very complicated to have a clear deployment if you're in the middle of the gaggle and so on. It's more about your own safety when you're taking risk in a sketchy line in a, you know, lower altitude with some rough terrain that you want a clear deployment as fast as possible and way to steer away from the terrain. That will be real, real safety bonus, and we, we believe we can develop it in the near future.
What's
the name of it.
of the pot yep no No, their harness. Oh, no. The name of the harness is 3RS. We give this kind of technical name because it's communicating with a tree rescue parachute and with a tree ring system. So it's just giving a name for the extras inside. Yeah, we make many, many amazing features like the custom-made buckles. We designed them on a CNC machine, cut them from aviation aluminum, and they're really strong. They never released the grip, you know? We used to stitch our harness, uh, doing acro, and taping it with duct tape to keep the position. Now it's all set, but we have many things to improve and on the track, you know, to make a color code custom, uh, mix webbing with dinema.
You know, many details that just require time and a lot of money. In the beginning, I was like, "Oh, we're gonna do it." We're just with pocket money so far. I don't want to say big word, but we've been throwing Throwing your money almost for an apartment, you know, and three years of working with no salary. And this thing can take hundreds of thousands easily. It can slow, you know. The development is so much. Man,
harnesses are so complicated. I look at them and go, how in the world do you…
I hope I will manage to keep the crew because it's difficult without financing. There are some interest people want to finance the company, in the company, but they're just pure commercial. and I'm not really keen to share yet with them the company. And maybe at some point we will even talk to the community as an open investment, like how you say, not Kickstarter, GoFundMe or something, you know, just to keep the spirit because I think it starts like this and it will be very speedy to disappear or to be sold to some commercial company that just looks profit.
Yeah. Good for you, Ian. And I got a chance to sit in it and play with it when I was out with Dylan. It's a beautiful piece of kit. It's gorgeous. It's
getting better every time. So hope that you can see some of the latest version. It's a constant improvement. I thought we're going to do harness because you do one model and you can keep it 10 years on the market. This is what I've seen, you know, from the industry. But it's not like this because I'm never satisfied. and I don't want to keep even two months the same thing because you can improve it every day it's like growing my own kid I'm still not a biological father so this is my kid
looking after me
You snuggle at night, talk to her nicely in the morning. I do that with my new ways.
hanging together, talking about this and that, finding unique extras, stress and relation between hey
Uh, rewinding to the Worlds and XC and competing and Race to Gold type stuff. Um, you mentioned before we started talking, before we started recording, that you know, you were—you weren't really tuned up going into this because you hadn't been competing that much. And but you found that, you know, for the most part, you could hang with the—with the lead guys just until you made a mistake. Talk about mistakes, because I think a lot of folks struggle with that. You know, what kind of mistakes are the ones that get you—get you repeatedly? You know, are they—are they up in here? What I think in
These events, I really refresh my mind and re-educate again on the same topic that is being so painful in the past, when you do the same same mistakes. Uh, basically, the the biggest and the worst mistake that can ruin your flying and your your score is just trying to be too aggressive, you know, just trying to believe blindly that it's going to work, you know, without the clear sign that you're choosing the better option, you know. And I get both in these events. Sometimes I was choosing completely different decisions from the main group, from the gaggle, and we even find ourselves with Pal in one of those moments, just like, what the heck, Pal, why are you here?
Here, why you're here? Why, why we're not there? Like, yeah, yeah, because they're going in the shadow, right? This is not good. And here is a sun on the left is, of course, of course. But then we start hooking four meter thermal and hopping from cloud to cloud and just overtake the main gaggle by far easy, you know? But that was—that was a one good decision, but bad decision was just trying to run without the plan, just, just going, you know? Just going because you feel like you're thermaling good, you're gliding good, you don't feel upset about anything today, and just keep pushing and pushing and blindly. Like, that was the thing that really put me on the ground, slow me down. And then I had to survive and crow after the, you know, the last guy on the go. That was really stupid mistake.
Don't try to push without a plan. You can push when you see a clear, clear path, you know? And explaining yourself, why? All you have to ask yourself, why you're just pushing? Because, because you blindly believe it's not going to work. And the other advice is we have a difference in the performance of the equipment according to sizes and stuff. And sometimes I was upset to see that I'm just slightly bit, you know, in a disadvantage because I'm flying small size. But, you know, Even though I make a stupid decision to change completely the course and try to fly in an individual line just to feel better, you know?
But okay, you can feel better for a while because you're not gliding worse than anyone around you. But if you don't have a plan, why you're going there? Just because you want to feel better, you're going to end up bad again. Everything is just come to the discipline: what is good, what is bad, you know? What is risky, what is stupid, what is—what is good to do? And simple, simple things. Nothing genius, you know? Simple. I
think you know, watching Russ win that, what is cements for me? You know, his word is discipline. He always talks about that. You gotta have discipline, discipline, discipline. And that cements for me. It seemed like, especially there, because it was—I, I flew there the year and whatever that was, two years ago, for the World Cup down there. And I think we had pretty similar conditions. It was a lot of rain, a lot of cloud, a lot of really slow climbs, just painfully slow. And that's—that's not the kind of flying that I experience here in Sun Valley. You know, everything here is always really strong. And so it was really a total—you had to almost meditate on, on just slowing down and not taking a lot of risk and being disciplined.
It's a—it's a, a different kind of place to raise
It's a really essential, uh, spectrum word that can really describe the whole blah blah, you know. Discipline was something that when I was applying, I was doing really good, maybe not really ahead of, in front of the people, but I was doing really good. And if I sustained that every day, I was going to end up really good. As the moment I turn emotional, things go to heck, and, uh, he proved that because one, he catched me one of the days. He won't task after a poor experiment to escape from the gaggle because I was on top and slightly in front. I was like, "Okay, see you guys, bye-bye." Alone, missed the line of the lift, find myself on the floor. They flew over me with a little zigzag and I was like, "Whoa, what I was thinking, you know?" And I end up alone behind, and then I see, "Okay, Russ is coming from even far behind me and even lower." Like, "Okay, let's keep with this flying god, you know, just keep up with him." And then, then I thought because he starts really, uh, catching me and eventually catch me and climb better than me in the thermal, which I, I kind of, uh, kind of break my concentration, or like, how this is possible?
I was really trying my best, but of course he was better somehow, and he, he did that. And then on a glide, he won a bit better altitude as well, so our separation start to be, you know, kind of visible. We're not really in the same air mass, but still, if I keep discipline and just following the good line, not trying to find another, you know, invisible much better, which was obviously not existing, I, I just did that. I tried to, okay, find another line to get ahead, you know, and then keep up again with him. And I get again super low, and he won the task with a few moves after that. You just keep discipline, the best guy. And don't compare as well. Sometimes comparing can really break your mind, you know.
Don't compare. Always just do your best and stick discipline to the best plan according to the picture you're seeing. Don't try to be emotional. And if you can do that over and over again, you'll be probably very good.
But again, flying is related to bring us emotion. And controlling these emotions is kind of a controversial reason why we're in the sky, you know, isn't it? So that's the big challenge.
Yeah, it
kind of works against the whole point of what we're doing, isn't it? Yes, I know. It's a hard balance, Scott. It's a hard balance. So yeah, it's—it's—it's something that we would try to master all life in, in any aspect of life, just discipline. You know, imagine what is more important, you know, the to prove in that certain moment that you can do it, or just be emotional and believe that you can do it anyway? But then that this can hurt you, because that's what happened with me and with many pilots. They are—they're like, anyway, we bomb out. It's no big deal. But when you do that a few times, you feel bad. It hurts.
It is an emotional roller coaster. That's for sure. It's so easy in 20-20 hindsight to look back and go, yeah, the whole thing. You just got to be calm and not kick your helmet. And you always see the really good guys, they bomb out and it doesn't seem to bother them. But when it comes down to it, we're humans. We got an ego. go and man, it can be hard to get the beat down, especially when it's, you know, a few days in a row. I did that down roldo a few years ago. I had a really good year one year there, and the next year I went down, I'm gonna crush it, and boom boom, you know, oh, it's just, oh yeah, and I gotta do this again tomorrow.
also get a few very very strong lessons in argentina surprisingly the the good The good one was in La Rioja, where we were flying beyond my experience, even when I fly in Brazil in the strong condition, following the wind over these wild territories, was in a way more comfortable than what I experienced in La Rioja during the World Cup, because we were flying like 40 kilometers, almost square, really vast area with just bush. Not very life-threatening, but bush and spikes and small trees and nothing, And no landing, and you're gonna walk like a wild pig for probably days to get out of there.
And we're flying over this territory with a 40k headwind, not following the wind, and I thought, "This is insane, or completely impossible," when we close task like this. And I thought I seen strong condition in one of those days. I was really emotionally exhausted, and in the end, I started my final glide 500 meter minus, you know, 10k from the goal, like, "Oh, anyway, it's gonna work somehow." I arrived 2,500 meter over the goal. It was impossible to go down, man, on full bar, 10 kilometer on full bar. I gained 3,000 meter up straight. People were sucked in airspace and disqualified this day. They pitocco will miss to lose to win the competition that day because he you get zero points, was brutal.
And I didn't have collapse. We were handling this condition somehow, flying in the lee side of a big mountain over these bushes, no problem. Just concentration, being an animal turned to a beast. You manage somehow. And then the opposite. I go to Tucuman in this kindergarten jungle, you know, flying tra-la-la over the jungle, very low, very smooth. I almost die in the training day. Hey, my Enzo, for the first time, I changed maybe four or five Enzos so far, flown them in any kind of condition, rough condition. I never get this ugly collapse with no shoot. Normally, I fly with the mentality that if my glider moves, I'm going to get it. I'm like a black mamba. I have the reflex like putting something in your eye and going to blink before.
For sure, I believe in that. And that's why I go to fly every day with no stress because I believe in that. But the glider disappeared without moving forward, just go, go down like, like a domino. It fall to my head, really big frontal moving to the side, getting an instant cravat while folding, you know. The slack of the brakes back then is so big, you, you don't have six meter arm to, to control any of this, you know? So you just do something, but it's nothing. And then you just wait to load the glider when it's already with a huge cravat. I didn't even look on the side, just barely with my periphery, but I knew that I'm low and I'm not gonna save time looking down. So I stole the wing immediately and I recover it as fast as I can.
Was really like a cascade, bam, bam, bam, and open. No waste of time, but I was 20 meter over a huge area of power lines, you know? I could have died there without doing, doing anything extreme. They're just cruising smoothly over the jungle. So my, my message to the fellow pilots and all the people there that might listen us, just never put 100 confidence in your gear, uh, for no reason, you know? If it's like, maybe the reason that you evaluate is enough, okay? But if you are just, uh, you know, not expecting it, that's, that's, that's problem. Because I was not expecting such a collapse in, in place like this, with no serious turbulence, with no nothing, you know, to prevent, to alert.
You know, paragliding in the end can be a dodgy sport, and always give yourself some room from the ground, except if you're not shooting on sunset and if you're really mentally prepared and the terrain have to be chosen. You know, this was the ugly part of the terrain with no rescue backup options. If you throw rescue or no rescue, you're dead over this power line. So, so choose your terrain when you're close to ground, man. Geez.
Man, I mean, that's a great story, but I hate those stories. I know you just
Told me too. I was affected hours after the landing. I couldn't get scared, but when I landed, like, gee, I could have died. Oh,
It sucks. I hate... I just, I don't like that part of our sport, and that that there is that randomness that, you know, there's nothing... Nothing small. I don't know if you heard, but I had a, I had a, my first crash in May. It was two weeks before the race and the listeners who listen to the show have heard about this. I won't go through it again, but it was the same thing. I took off and it was early in the morning. It wasn't that thermic yet. And I had no, there was no red flags, nothing. There wasn't, you know, I was, except that I was flying in Sun Valley. It's always, you know, a little rowdy here, but But, you know, it was, I was way overloaded on my glider is kind of the only thing I could think, but I hit some weird air and, and I was a hundred feet off the ground and the wing just disappeared instantly into an auto rotation.
And I had just done all that work with Dylan and I'm on my light, light kit, you know, I've got one reserve and I just thought I can't throw my reserve until I get this straightened out. And anyway, I, it, it worked out. I hit the ground incredibly hard. You know, I, the reserve popped and I hit the deck and so it did enough to save my life, but it was, you know, it was really, it was the, the head scratchy part was just what the fuck just happened right there. How did that, you know, all the hours I've flown and all the rowdy conditions and 4X Alps and what just hit me? What just did that to my glider? And yeah, that's what I don't like about the sport is just the, you know, when you're ridge soaring and you take a collapse on the inward side, not a lot you can do.
You know, you heard about those guys in the Descentis in the Superfinal this year. You know, they all said the guys I talked to just said, you know, it was pretty dicey, just racing right on these cliff edges, full bar. Uh, you know, even Chrigel would have a hard time recovering if something went wrong in that situation. And yeah, that's what gives me the heebie-jeebies about the sport. It's just, there's that factor too. We've got enough factors, yeah.
I I heard that he had a spicy situation there, actually, similar to what we described, you know, last minute, last second call. But I think this is the factor of bad luck, and this is existing in every aspect of life. And, of course, you're more likely to meet this factor when you're doing every day what you love to do, you know, not like on the street. It's an accepted part of life, but it sucks.
Yeah, it does suck. There's not much more to say about it, is there? it's just part of it
Yeah, like the snowboarder there was an article a few weeks, a few days ago, I think, a very good snowboarder just passed away on the ski, like Schumacher just hit his head, but you know, boom. And he used to be a guy making thousand big rotations over his head and doing this on the icy blue jumps, no problem. And he just, you know, yeah, it's a tricky one. But if we beware and be more cautious on the situation that doesn't require our attention, I think that's the best insurance.
And a good place to end. It's so awesome always catching up with you. We should make this a yearly event at least. I have really enjoyed kind of getting to know you via your posts all these years since we had our last talk. And where did we see each other the last time? We were at that event in near, uh, Garda. You were the king of the air thing, I think, was last time I saw you. But I hope we catch up with one of these hike and fly races, maybe in the future. It was so cool to see you on the on the roster for Dubai, and I was really looking forward to catching up with you there and having a beer with you and and watching those young guns go to go to town. But, um, congratulations on all the success this year and the X contest win and, and having some fun.
Well done and good luck with the harness.
Thank you, Gavin. For me, it's a great pleasure to hang out with you and deeply inspired by the stuff you do. And I'm sure you're far from done and I look forward to see you in the States or somewhere in the skies, really. Sounds good. If
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