Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloud Based Mayhem. Just got back from the Monarca down in Mexico and all fired up about flying. We had a great week of racing down there, as we always do, so that was a blast. And I don't have any housekeeping, that's about it. 2022 is off to a good start and I hope it is for all of you as well. And I'm really excited to bring you a bunch of great content this year. I've been recording like mad, as I've said in the last couple. So I've got a whole bunch of shows laid out for you over the next few months and I hope you enjoy them. Today's show is with Johanna Hamm from Sweden, currently living in Finland. And she and her significant other both are big racers.
And they travel a lot and they're both on the World Cup scene. And she had a really exciting year this last year. She got pregnant and ended up breaking the Nordic FAI record when she was eight months pregnant. So you can imagine that certainly brought some attention to her on the socials, both good and bad. And so we talk about that. We talk about being in a relationship with somebody else who flies really hard. Chases it really hard. We talk about risk, how risk changes or not when you have a child. That was pretty interesting to me. So I've just been going through that myself. And a lot of other really cool things. I've run into Johanna in a lot of places around the world, usually at World Cups and stuff and the British.
And she's always got a great big warm smile and she's got a great attitude. And I love how she approaches this sport. I think you will as well. Enjoy this talk.
Johanna, it's really good to have you on the Mayhem. See your smiling face here and talk all things flying and Finland and babies. And you've had a big year and it's been kind of a weird year for everybody, but you've been stomping it. So excited to have you on the show. Hi. Hi. Excited to be here. Thanks for taking the time. We were... We were just chatting it up before we started recording and you were telling me about where you are. I had to look it up on Google Maps. You know, we've all got a little bit of a fascination with Finland after watching Juni just send it this year. And he had that huge record. Well, the two record flights and topped it off with that 500 plus.
But what, right? It was 500 plus, wasn't it? The second one? It
was 500 plus. Yeah. And I think many pilots have gotten their eyes up for Finland. But unfortunately, it might not. Not as weather reliable as Brazil, if you're searching for big distances. Well,
that's what I was going to ask you. So you're down in the Southwest. And when I just pulled it up on Google Maps, you know, one of the things I've been impressed with when I've looked at his flight is just the water. Tell me a little bit about Finland. You guys are surrounded by water, but then the whole country is tons of lakes. There's a lot of water. I don't really understand how it works.
Well, I mean, it's pretty much... Well, it's called the land of the thousand lakes. Which is probably a bit of an understatement because there is plenty of them. And I would say that most of the flying is probably good thanks to it as well, because we have so much contrast. It may be very flat country, but since it's fields and forests and lakes and swamps, we get quite good thermal triggers. And possibly that is why. And also, of course, it's quite safe and nice when it's flat everywhere.
Yeah. You don't have turbulence to deal with, I guess.
Exactly. There is pretty much nothing. And of course, I mean, valley winds doesn't really exist on a very minor scale. And weather is predictable. And since we mainly do towing, then it enables you to take off in quite strong wind and just drift with it. So, of course, that's the main reason why we have these big distances.
And so it's all flat. How far above sea level is Finland? What's the average?
I would say the average is maybe around 100 meters above sea level. So
really flat.
It is really flat, for sure. If you go way up north, then you have some hills. Okay. But then you're bordering to Norway.
Okay. Okay. And it seems like the big ones are north to south, which is kind of the way the country is oriented. You were in the sky with him, but you chose a different launch on the... On the 400 day or the other one?
Yeah, it was a 400 day. So pretty much the north to south flights. Then we have this cold, dry air coming in from Russia, which is really good for thermals. And I had chosen a launch a bit closer to the sea and also a bit further south. But unfortunately, it seemed like it had rained quite a bit in that area, which we had not noticed. And yeah. We all flew very fast, 50 kilometers. And Joni flew 400. And I think Pekka Rautoskoskog was also flying 400.
Landing close to backwards. So definitely the wind speed was there, but the thermals were not really taking you anywhere.
And what's the season there? For those listening who have been watching these big flights go down, when should we show up and bother you guys to take us flying?
You should, in that case, come visiting in end of May. May, beginning of June. The thermal season basically starts in end of April, mid end of April, and ends around August. And of course, possibilities every now and again after that and before that, but very, very rarely.
And how tall do you get? And the pictures I've seen of the flying, there's usually pretty good cloud streets. Are you flying blue days too, or is there just too much water and there's always clouds?
Yeah, actually. I mean, for example, my big flight, that was a blue day. And the blue days are actually, I like them personally. I know plenty of people that does not like dry thermals, but for me, it's a good thing. And I would say we are easily flying 2,000, 2,500 meter base. Jeez, really?
You're almost 10,000 feet off the ground. That's pretty good. It gives you some room to work.
It does. But then again, it's... Often you can fly still good cross country being lower as well. I remember that I've had a flight where I never got more than, was it 1,200 meters or something? And I still flew 100K. Wow.
And again, I'm just going off pictures. I've never flown there. That part of the world, I've been to Norway. I was up there for the Winter Olympics, whenever that was, 94. I was just dating me. Oh, yeah.
Lillehammer. Yeah,
Lillehammer. And Hamara is beautiful. Gosh, gorgeous up there. It is. And a little bit in Sweden, but I've never done any flying. It just looks awesome. But from the pictures, like you said, it's flat, so you can handle a lot of wind. But it also doesn't... I mean, are there plenty of places to land? It looks pretty dense. A lot of water and a lot of forest.
Yeah. I mean, definitely these big flights that Joni and Pekka has been doing in a bit more eastern side of Finland, then you have more forest. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them.
I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them.
I mean, even
some of them. I mean, even some of them.
I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them. I mean, even some of them.
I mean, even some of them. pilot created called avia maps and those of you listening will have this link on the on the show notes because this is terrific it shows all the airspace and notams and everything yes
it's actually a huge benefit as well to have this uh real updated information about everything and not having to search from different sources to know what is not allowed to fly into and so on and also contains a lot of different uh information like opening hours of the of the towers and such and i mean in in general we are operating from from airfields which means that we are flying with aviation radio to be able to communicate with the other traffic so
are you all ham operators you don't have a ham license okay yeah so you carry an airband radio with you when you fly yeah is that a is that a requirement is that a regulation flying in finland uh
it's not a regulation but i think it is recommended and at least i mean if you're flying somewhere where there is not other traffic then of course it's not needed but if you're operating from airfield then you have to be able to communicate with the others or if you have someone that you're flying with that does have one
okay i see yeah yeah yeah so i would say that anyway we should all have our ham licenses and be flying with them anyway but
yeah that's true but how is it at least in sweden i know there's some hiccups regarding it in the regulations that somehow the how was it the radio installation have to be approved somehow which is of course not really possible on a on a paraglider right
and are you talking to the cockpits a lot is there a lot of air traffic in finland and a lot of planes flying around and you're you know hey we're flying just heads up yeah
there is quite a bit of a bit of traffic this you know hobby aviation traffic there's plenty of sailplanes and gyros and other just private small planes and of course we are communicating with them but it's uh most often you're just approaching an airfield informing that you're in the area see if someone is there continuing but it also opens up the possibility to file a flight plan and fly through control airspace if they allow you in
oh okay wow interesting yeah we don't fly with a lot of airspace here so we're all kind of novices when it comes to that whenever i'm in the x house i'm that's one of my biggest fears and you know they used to not care unless it was the really serious ones you know the ctrs and stuff and now it's the national parks and you know it's gotten really complicated it's really complicated to just make a course you know a race course that avoids most of it so i feel for the organizers as well it's just it's gotten really tricky and it always gets a few athlete it always gets a few but um it's good to it's good you can fly there and learn it
yeah and of course especially down on the continent it's uh it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's just so much tighter in between the uh the big airports as well so no wonder yeah
here it's a
small country we have quite many airports as well but they are having quite limited amount of traffic at least so plenty of them are for example only open in the weeks and not in the weekends
so i in in our you know the previous years i've been doing comps a little longer than you have but you know we see each other at comps all the time and i know you're planning on going down to roldanio and uh for some reason i just never connected that you were doing these big flights in the flats of flint do you do you consider yourself a flatland pilot or a mountain pilot or both
oh very good question maybe i'm more of a flatland pilot nowadays actually i do enjoy it a lot at least it's very it's very calm yeah flying there yeah
it's nice not to deal with turbulence and lee isn't it exactly
it's not bad no and maybe i've realized as well that i'm not as willing nowadays to just be very very close to the ridges and the mountains so i have gotten a maybe a healthy respect for for it is
that because of an incident or is that because of the new little addition to your family i
think that is actually the addition to the family more than uh more than an incident interesting
okay so this is a good segue uh you just mentioned your record you you was this the record you had when you were eight months pregnant correct yes wicked let's talk about that that's gonna raise some eyebrows here
well i i was not expecting it either i can assure you that so the
record or the baby the
record the baby was pretty expected at eight months
i guess it's pretty obvious yeah
i i had a hunch
yeah well pretty much it was um yeah as we may be know my partner is also a competition pilot so he had the plan of uh declaring the nordic record triangle that day i was gonna i mean had pretty much settled that i will not be doing that big flights for the rest of the season because of well obviously what was coming and um this
is your first first
big triangle yes
no your first baby ah
first baby as well yes yes
yeah so pretty much um i was thinking that yeah well i mean flying a triangle it's a perfect day for it and uh you're always in quite reachable distance to go back to the airfield anyway so i can track along i will most likely not uh not manage it around but yeah it's nice to have a plan so that was pretty much it and um i probably had one of the worst launches of my career actually um we had 90 degree side wind because there was a lot of activity on the on the airfield so quite terrible launch i did lose my winter glove in the launch so i only had summer gloves which is uh less than optimal in uh nordic spring yes so i mean well and uh let's see first leg uh i was quite slow like the first leg always is uh on a triangle and um we ended up low after 30 k about and it was me and you flying together and he landed and i somehow managed to drag myself up from 100 meters and then i just thought to myself oh dear god it's so far to go
because then it's like plus 120k that is written on the instrument and that alone not super motivated right
there must have been thoughts going through your head is this what i should be doing or not yeah
it was pretty much like but it was supposed to be his flight not mine i was not supposed to set this right it was not quite my plan but it is a good day so i will continue let's see and i mean the entire course line was along roads super safe flying i mean i can land whenever doesn't matter so i slowly continue so i reached the first turn point and then uh finally the the conditions really started being like booming and unfortunately by then i was on a section of the track that has a roof so it was flight level 65 okay so i couldn't top off the thermals either oh man so it's a bit of a murphy's law and uh and mental wise it's uh you know every 10k is a bit of a celebration and all of a sudden it's not three digits anymore on the instrument okay that's a goal in itself now it starts to feel a bit more reachable and uh yeah somehow it just
slowly got myself around wow
and yeah yeah no single cloud really and completely blue there's no cloud wow you like the blue days well that's really interesting so you said uh you 160 FAI and that's the nordic record is that not knocking it that's an awesome FAI but is that is it just hard to do triangles in the nordic countries because they're long and skinny
uh yeah pretty much and of course it's um in finland it's flatland which means a completely different story you're not really getting any of the benefits of it for example mountain mountain side to just be soaring off going like a highway of it so it's not possible to fly them like you fly them in uh down in the alps for example and uh not quite sure why it hasn't been flown a big triangle in uh norway but they do have quite unstable weather when it's epic it's amazing but quite often they have a lot of wind so it might be why it's not so easy flying triangles there
yeah it's at
least my theory and
where do you spend most of your time flying is it are you mostly at home year round or are you spending a lot of time on the road and getting hours down the alps no
we're plenty at home and then uh just a
little bit of time on the road and then we're going to fly a lot of times
just going for competitions that's pretty much how it goes i would say when
did you start flying comps
xc or acro oh
okay i didn't know you flew acro comps
uh-huh all right yeah i started i did my first acro competition in 2014 and i did my first cross country competition in 16.
oh wow were you doing any acro practice with the little one on board
not practice but just i have pretty much put the acro on the shelf i'm just flying you know goofing around over the airfield what i can do blindfolded so so yes i did some but not i don't think a real acro pilot would call that acro nowadays like doing sutt and the wingers and some loops and stuff it's barely regarded as acro nowadays and
how old is your little one now boy or girl uh
it's a girl she's now turning one and a half oh okay
so if you had her up on if you has she been tandem flying with you no only in the belly only in the belly i love it i love it we took fallon on tandem and i i wasn't the pilot i was just flying around todd wiegland who's a really good acro pilot and really good tandem pilot and when she was 13 months and uh and yeah and he did a bunch and i said hey you got to do with her what you do with all your normal clients so i want to see some helis and so he did a bunch of helis and i was flying around her and i took video the whole thing and i sent it to my mom so her grandmother and i sent it to my mom and i sent it to my mom and i sent it to my mother and my mom didn't talk to me for a week she was so pissed off she couldn't believe it i said no it's
safer than driving a car it's fine hey it's nice to hear that someone is worse than me at least yeah so i
i applaud your decision making but you know let's talk about that though did you get some funny looks was this all okay in in finnish culture or you know in our flying community or were people kind of whoa what are you thinking i
think that uh yes there was some talk mostly behind the back and in flying community wise mostly it was positive opinions especially from uh from the females around i have gotten some like interesting comments uh that has maybe been not so not so thought through before they have a jumped out of the mouth from the persons delivering them but uh and of course it's a i can i can understand them because everyone is having their own like background in terms of experience sure what i would say they can and or should not be doing in general and then on top of that of course you should not be doing something completely new when you're pregnant that kind of
says itself i would say do
you feel like it affected anything uh you know from a positive side you know do you do you feel like your little girl is maybe a little bit more like a little bit more uh less risk averse than maybe some babies would be i mean i don't know can you tell any difference that you know she came out was just a little you know a crazy person you know just loved heights or whatever i don't know something different i
don't know i think she is maybe a bit more uh like liking things that goes fast and a bit more action things than maybe other others but i have no idea if it's uh related to flying or genetic or whatever is related to your
partner's a comp pilot did is he finished as
well it's finished i'm swedish by the way so
that's what i thought okay so you you you guys met on the comp scene or or not how did how did you guys meet and how did how'd that all come together
well actually we met i was in finland for a work trip and i brought my paragliding gear with me to see if it was possible to fly in finland and uh and then after that we uh kind of started dating after uh meeting each other in colombia after that oh
wow okay uh and what does he think what does he think about you flying when you're pregnant is he supportive is he a little reticent what how's
that all no he's been very very supportive but then again that that's kind of the thing because we were all already you know quite mature pilots by the time that we met yeah so i had the acro background he had cross country background and then i was like oh my god i'm gonna fly in finland and then i was like oh my god and we have sort of been teaching each other maybe a bit from the backgrounds that we have so he started flying a bit of acro after that and i went into cross country
more and more interesting so your your initial your initial push was was acro when you first got into flying
yeah um i started like i started you know like everyone more or less with an SIV and realized hey it's super fun stalling the glider i want to do this more and i think the problematic for me that was that i never properly got the training time in because both combining flying hobby with a career and everything and i was living in norway at that point and it just felt like the weather was not quite there you got very few flying days in general the acro training never got to a level where it should be and it's all about being like fresh in acro you need to get the training time in um so i did the worlds in acro mostly just because it was wanted to get more female so we could actually have a female category in the worlds in 16 which we did so we did i think that was the only time there has been a female world champion in acro because both the other times it has been too few right we couldn't have great fun down there yeah and um but after that
it actually opened up a lot of new opportunities for me and i think that's what i've been doing recently so i've just moved up in this great acro spot in norway close to where i was living gondola up to thousand meters straight you know straight out over water but i was the only one there so i try to motivate myself to train and i just at some like if you're alone your motivation runs out i would say
yeah so
i think that's what's happened with me but now it's a booming community there but
i was a bit too early right and will you get back into acro or You said some parts of – let's talk about your risk tolerance now that you've had your little girl. What have you noticed that's shifted, if anything?
I would say in terms of – like the first competition I did after getting her, it was in Slovenia this summer. And I noticed that I'm not as keen on flying very close to the ridges and the mountainsides, for example. But it's definitely possible to still keep up by just choosing slightly different lines, slightly more optimized lines and flying them a bit differently. So in the end result, it doesn't make that big difference, at least in normal Category 2 competitions. Of course, if you were to go to a PWC, then I would say you're going to be left behind. But on this level, it's still okay.
Otherwise, I think I've been quite aware. I'm aware of the risks my entire flying career, and I'm just not so keen on taking them. I had some injuries in the past, and I think it taught me a thing or two.
Can we dive into some of those or one of those? Yeah, sure. You
know, young and stupid. Yeah, because you're so old now. Exactly.
No, that was back in 2014. And I –
I managed to spin my cross country glider when I was out flying really low. So I ended up doing a quite controlled crash and broke my ankle. Okay. But two months on crutches, it still is a lot of time to think and quite frustrating for a person that is normally quite active. And then the year after in an acro competition, then sometimes you're getting this, you know, hot test. So I said that, damn, this has gone so well that I feel a bit invincible. And I got that feeling for the landing. And this was because we were supposed to do two runs this day in the competition. So the landing was on a raft on the ground.
Oh. And still I thought I would do a spin landing, which I'm not very good at doing. So I came in a bit hot. A bit high. A bit fast. And I managed to break my ACL and meniscus on the left – no, right knee. Ow.
Ow. Yeah. Shoot.
Okay. So I had those two and it taught me that, you know what, being injured, it's not that fun. Let's remember this. Step back. Think about what we're doing. And I find it's – It was quite good timing because I was enough pilot to know what I was doing. I got actually properly injured enough to remember it.
Yeah. And I haven't gotten
injured since.
A moderately inexpensive mistake, I would call that one. Exactly. Yeah. You need the mistakes to learn, but you paid enough of a price that it really set in. Okay. Don't do that again. Ding dong. Exactly. Exactly. So – Right.
I think it was a valuable lesson, definitely. And enough of a lesson and maybe in the right timing as well.
Yeah. Tell me about your – I don't mean the personal side of it, but your relationship. How does that work with flying, you both being pilots? Because a lot of the people I interview, a really common theme on the show and I think just in life with all of us is how to balance this. How to balance what we do with life because it is quite a time suck.
Chasing it takes a lot of time and money sometimes if you're doing a lot of traveling. But it's quite hard to find – for a lot of people I think to find the balance, certainly is for me, especially with family. How does that work when you have a partner who flies? Does that make it a lot easier? Maybe it makes it harder. I don't know.
I would say it's a lot easier. It does make it a lot easier because you have the same priorities. So it's of course – I can imagine. I don't know. Do you have a non-flying partner?
Oh, very much so. I've taken her for a tandem and three minutes into the flight, she's looking back at me talking about, you know, what are we going to do on Friday night? Honey, you're not interested in this whatsoever, are you? No, I'm not.
Doesn't have any interest. You know, she thinks the Red Bull X-Alps is – oh, that's kind of nice. Yeah, it must be interesting for you.
Interesting little walk in the park, yes.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I think it's making – like priority-wise, it's making it so much easier. I mean, for an example, we have pretty much whenever cross country season is on in Finland, we do not make any other plans. Perfect. So it's – yeah, because if the conditions are allowing for flying cross country, then we want to do that. And of course, we are sharing the days. But anyway – I
was going to say – yeah.
So do you –
do one of you fly now and the other one looks after your daughter or do you get a babysitter?
No, it's – we are switching days. So we are just dividing it. And of course, it's maybe in the end slightly less flying. But then again, we are also like committing to going even the days that maybe is not looking so promising. And it has turned out that most of the times it's actually working better than predicted, those days as well. Yeah. And also trying to help each other if – because we both have quite free work. So if one has possibility to go flying in the week, then either joining to assist towing or at least being the caretaker of the kid for that day.
Right, right. So like helping each other. So what will you do – because you're doing the World Cup and the Open, the British Open, right? And Roldo, you do both? Well, let's see. At
least the British Open. I don't know if I'm getting selected for the PWC actually.
Yeah, it's pretty high level this year, isn't it? I mean everybody is just dying to go to a comp after this last year and a half of no comp. I think people are quite motivated, yeah. Yes, very motivated. Well, so – but if you do both, little one just comes with you guys, how are you going to handle that?
No, he's staying at home. No, he's staying at home. He went to Argentina for the Worlds.
Ah. You guys get to trade off. Yes. Nice. Okay. Oh, cool. That makes sense. That does, doesn't it? And if you had a long break away from your daughter, will this be the first big break you've had or have you done this before?
Well, I did go to Slovenia by myself. So that was about 10 days when she was around one. So that was the first long break and that was like okay. Both for her and for me. You're quite casual,
aren't you? I'm trying to – yeah, it was really dramatic and hard and brutal. I couldn't even talk to her on the phone. It's okay. It's fine.
Well, not so
bad. That's great. But
she's a pretty chilled out kid as well. So it's kind of nice.
So she's happy with dad and that's all fine. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, that's great. Boy, if you had given me Fallon for 10 days. When she was one, I would have lost my shit. That was – yeah. I mean I think in total now she's four and a half. I've maybe had her just me maybe six days total.
She needs mom. Yeah.
She seems to be quite easygoing kid so.
That's great. Knock on wood. This is way too personal. But was this a planned project? Pregnancy, you had this on the map. You guys talked about this or was this, whoa, uh-oh, here we go. It was quite planned. Okay.
We didn't really have any like big comps coming up that we wanted to go the year after. So let's see if it's – I see you were planning it
around the comps. I love it. You guys are awesome. That's fantastic. Okay. We got a pretty open schedule. Yeah. Okay. Let's do it.
Yeah. Then of course like COVID kind of happened but that was not really part of the plan. Yeah.
Right. Right.
So that kind of halted things anyways.
Again, way too personal question but will you have more kids? Let's see. I have no
idea. Nothing planned at least.
Yeah. Okay. If you don't mind, I'd love to talk about – you said that some of the kind of comments that came out of people's mouths that maybe weren't really well thought out in advance. You said the look on your face was the troubling one. I mean more troubling ones came from other females. What was that about?
No, no, no. It was not from other females. Oh,
it wasn't?
Okay. We maybe did get some comments but then it was from non-flying – flying related ones in that case.
Non-flying?
Yeah. That had some pretty strong opinions regarding it and –
Oh, because their perception of the danger and that kind of thing?
Yeah, exactly. And no, otherwise it just got some minor – Yeah, I mean I did get some minor comments from guys actually like, oh, but how can you be flying ENSO while being pregnant? Like, well, to be honest, I did not get a – ended up being a worse pilot just because being pregnant. But I mean I did actually – I did step down as well but that was early in the pregnancy. So –
Yeah. I mean you got more ballast. Yeah. Exactly. Fly flies better. Yeah.
But I – yeah, because I had – when I got pregnant, I had – Yeah. I had pretty much three different competition gliders and sold one of them. So, I stepped down actually to the Sino which also had like half a size higher weight span. Okay. So, I – which just meant that – I mean I just had to take less and less ballast along the pregnancy and then
– Yeah. You just get on the scale each time when you go, okay, I don't need quite as much water today.
Did flying ever – did it – you know, when you did the – When you did the F-A-I, you know, 160, that took some hours. Was it – That was about eight hours. Yeah. Wow. Did it take any – did you notice any difference, any kind of weird alien world stuff when you – we call that alien. I always think of really long flights. You get on the ground and you feel really strange. You know, just kind of, man, I feel like an alien in this – on the ground now. Was there any – was any different? Did you notice any difference between how you normally felt and when you're pregnant? Not
really, no. I was actually surprised. I had expected I would feel a bit different, but no, it was – it was more of a mental struggle that I wasn't alone. Okay. And it was – especially the last leg was super, super slow. Oh. But because I had gotten like – this last leg had gotten slight tailwind, but it was very late already. So I mean the thermals were crazy slow. So the progress was like next – Yeah, slow going. And then when you're back to nil and when you have already been in the air for about six hours, you're just – you're struggling with the motivation.
Yeah, right.
And still, it's like – but it's so reachable by now.
Yeah, you
got to do it. It's so close. Yeah. That it's just like try to stay in it and – but I mean the thermals were like, you know, 0.5, 1 meter per second. So the progress is slow.
Slow going. Yeah, slow going. Yeah. Were you getting encouraging, you know, were you in radio contact with your partner on the ground? Was he kind of, yeah, get it, you know, or were you just, were you sort of on your
own? Yeah,
I think he was
actually sending me some messages on the phone like, you're doing great. Just keep on fighting and stuff like that. So it was actually, it was really nice. And it was needed as well.
Yeah. Do you both help each other out quite a bit with flying? I'm wondering, you know, there's always that coaching dynamic between a couple that can be really tough. You know, so if there was a day back in the day when I was kayaking, when I would teach a girlfriend how to kayak, it just very rarely went very well. It was often better to put them in a school and, you know, because there's the personal side of things. Do you guys battle with that at all? Or is that something, or do you even do it at all? Do you coach each other?
We do coach each other. And I think. I have the problem like strategically in competitions that I'm the hothead. And I take very, we used to describe my flying style as high risk, low reward. Okay. Because I tend to be the one getting all the, you know, the competition horns growing out. And then I'm just full barring it from the starts way too low. And, you know, in general doing strategically stupid things in competitions. No discipline. No. Exactly. Whereas I have a partner who is very calm and composed and thinks through a lot more.
So
I'm getting good tips. So he gives you tips about that and it works. You don't take that in a, oh, you know, I don't know. Because people can. Not in a bad way. Not in a bad way. That's good. No.
Yeah. But I know myself well enough that I know that I am doing quite stupid things in competitions. Hmm. That I should not be doing.
What do you think if, you know, obviously this hasn't happened. It's hard to imagine something that may never happen. But what if one of you stopped flying for whatever reason? You get an accident or you get scared or just whatever. It just doesn't have the zing that it once did. And you don't get, you're not as interested in it. And the other person really is. What do you, how would that play out? Do you think? Or how would you?
I think it would still be like quite, it would still work out. I mean, that's pretty much how we are living, you know, in, in wintertime, for example. Sure. When the season, when the season is off. Hmm. We're pretty much. Exactly. We're pretty much not flying at all from October to if we're going to Colombia or some winter competition. But in general, we have a quite active lifestyle. So I think that will still be. Yeah. Same.
How do you tune yourself up for, for something like Roldo when you've had a long break?
That's a very good question because it's always that you are a bit rusty when you're getting there. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's sub zero and full of snow here. You have no way to sort of warm up, but it's this mental preparation instead of maybe watching some, watching some Moyes and track logs and that type of things. And, uh, you know, trimming the glider and then having a few days. So you have to get up before the camp to kind of get the rest of you
try to arrive a few days before the practice day and get some, get some hours. Hmm.
But I think I, it's kind of inept, but you can't, uh, I can't really solve it any other way. Fortunately Rolda is, I mean, it's not the strongest place on earth and you can always escape to the flats and sort of calm down for a while. So that's, that's, I mean, that's one of the beauties with the place.
Yeah. It is very special. It
has everything. I'm told it's not as intense as it is in the palace. Yeah,
it is very special. What are your goals this next season?
I have my eyes set on the declared European record cross country.
Okay. But
let's see, because that was the one that I was trying to do that very fast 50k day. That didn't very much not happen.
So I would say that that is maybe the aim for this year.
And maybe trying to get one more Nordic record would be fun as well.
Where are the Nordics this year?
The Nordics next year, it's not determined yet. Oh, okay. It will be determined in the next few weeks, I think.
I always enjoy that. I had a blast in Macedonia with you guys. I'd love to keep coming to those.
You are welcome to join again. That was fun. We had a great Nordics in Petrobrinard now in September. It looked like it.
I watched that. That looked fantastic.
We had super tasks and strong conditions high. It was fun racing.
I want to dive back in just briefly into the risk side of things now that you've got the little one. The two accidents you mentioned, I wouldn't think either of those had any kind of fear involved with them. Well, maybe the spin, but I'm wondering if either those or other ones you've had have ever left you with a bit of a fear scar. Yeah, and just kind of made you fly differently after that.
Not really. The only one that sort of event in the air that I've had that has left any permanent, I would say, I had a proper cascade with the acroglyphs. I had a glider in Eulodenice in 2015, and I think that took some time to recover from. I was cascading for... Did you go in? I did not go in, no, but there was plenty of falling involved and slack lines and shooting here and there and not being right timed with a glider at any point. So I think that took some time to recover, but I learned so much from it as well.
So it wasn't... Otherwise... Totally ahead of you. You understood. You saw it all. People talk about that when it's kind of above their level. I don't know what happened. It sounds like you really did.
Yeah, I mean, it was still on... It was just slightly above my level for not handling it correctly, but I understood what was going on.
Which, for that... I mean, in that essence, it was a very good learning experience. I did not enjoy... I didn't enjoy it even a bit at that point, but... I mean, afterwards, you learn from it, for sure. Yeah. But with a cross country glider, apart from my crash, I haven't really had any big events, I can't say. But then again, the acro background is still giving some... I have, of course, still gotten, you know, collapses and proper blowouts with a comp glider. Yeah. Yeah. Still been manageable. Hmm.
You're... I wonder, what would you say, advice-wise, for SIV, for, you know, budding XC pilots? You know, with your acro background, how much is enough? How much should we shoot for? What's the goal there?
That's a very good question. I've been thinking myself as well, like this going to an SIV with a comp glider, for example. Because that's something I have never done. I have done SIV, like, early in my career. And then after that, well, you get a bit of a free training through the various acro maneuvers you're trying to learn. So, I can't really say. I think it's very valuable. And it can also, if you are inexperienced, it can also be scaring people, which is not good either. So, of course, it depends on at what point you're planning on taking it. And kind of in what purpose as well. Have you done a SIV on a comp glider?
No. I've done, you know, I did a lot of stalls on my X-Ox glider this year. I did a bunch of training this spring over the water. And, you know, it's a proper two liner, you know, so it's similar, but, and it's pretty high aspect. I think the climber too. I
think the climber too is
7.0, you know, so it'd be kind of similar to the old Ice Peak 6 kind of thing. But I've never done any purposeful SIV on my X-1 or my gliders before, my CCC gliders previous to that. I was with, I watched Cody do a ton of them on his Enzo II. Just a bunch of acro stalls. And they're just, they were just gorgeous. And, you know, you're losing. I mean, 15 feet tops, just nothing. And really, really nice. And so, you know, I think it's a good, you know, for me, it's always just been, oh, I don't want to stretch this thing out. I just, you know, this is my comp glider. I
have the
same feeling, exactly. I feel very confident that, you know, I could do, I've done a lot of stalls. So I feel very confident that I could handle it. But it's when it comes time to it, I just think, yeah, I know that it's important. You know, they used to really. Yeah. Yeah. You just go out on your C glider and do it and, you know, save that for something else. But it's very different. I think it's important that we all do it.
Yeah. Yeah. It, it for sure is. I mean, I, let's see, I have got a one full frontal that went to kissing tips on the Enzo in, in Mexico. And that has been the only event where I have, you know, stole the glider out. And just back fly releasing out. And it was just the cleanest you have ever can ever imagine. Yeah. And that was in, you know, full on thermic conditions in Mexico and still like, oh, okay.
No problems whatsoever.
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think having a really good back flies is probably the key in that, you know, just, just a really. Yeah. Okay. Just a second. Boom. And then you're good. You know, I think that works really nice to just have that confidence. That's what I learned in Olideni's. You know, when I went out there for some acro training. A bunch of years ago and, and I was trying to be really aggressive because I was over the water and I just really wanted to utilize this 10 days. And, and I had, I can't remember. It was a friend of jockey's on the radio with me and he, I remember one day. Yes. And I had, I had the one day where I was, I had done something too aggressively and I was kind of in a, was getting ready to go into a really bad cascade.
And just as he was saying, back fly back. Yeah. You know, right before that, boom, I did it. You know, I was in back fly and I was ahead of him. And, and then, then I really, for me, it was just a massive confidence boost was just, okay. I recognized it and I went to where I'm supposed to be.
Yeah. Actually, he was the one solving this big ass cascade that I had. Really? Yes. Because I was supposed to do a course with him starting the next day, but I was already on the radio and I went, as I was, you know, plummeting through the air. And it was kind of. I was kind of giving up because I had tried to stall it so many times and I had like, kind of, you know, not released it in the right timing or something. And then I think I'm like, yeah, Johanna, I don't know if you're on the radio, but do it again. This time just slightly slower and you'll be fine. Really? Yeah. You
know what I'm amazed with is the, the SIV instructors, they see everything. I think it's really good training. I think it's really good training to go through what they do. You know, seeing the guys that were driving the boats, you know, and just doing the towing. And I did a course with Dylan this spring out here in California and he, you know, I could see that those guys, you know, they're kind of apprenticing basically that they were really starting to get it because I can stand on the shore and look up and I can identify what's going on, but I can't be ahead of the pilot in terms of telling them what to do. And these instructors that just do so much SIV. It must be really good for their own flying because they're, they're always, you know, they're a second ahead of, of, of the pilot all the time.
It's really amazing. They see it as in real time. And I think, whereas the pilots always reacting, you know, they can anticipate it and it must be a great way to learn.
Yeah. I can imagine the same.
Flatlands. I want to talk to you about flatland training because you were in the epitome of the flatlands. Yeah. I didn't realize Finland was so totally flat. I was just looking at the map here.
So you hit the terrain button and there was no change.
Exactly. It looks the same. It just tilted up. But what, what can you tell us about, are there some secrets? Are there some things that, you know, you're, you're, you, you take, you fly differently when you're in the flats than in the mountains? Are you thinking about things differently?
Well, I mean, then again, the elevation different. It exists, which means that the thermal will still be triggering off something. So that's maybe the thing that you have to start paying a lot more attention to the surrounding area. Like, okay. Antennas are normally placed on a small height. So antennas should be trigger points, for example. Then you're checking the contrasts a lot.
Imagining this cold, hot contrasts. Like if you have a swamp, for example. That is in front of them, a thermal trigger, for example. And these types of things you're still, you're checking. And of course you have to, it helps if you are well known with the area, of course, but you can still fly great without, without knowing the area. I would say, of course it is the, it is easier when you have clouds, like in any place. I mean, that is telling you exactly where to go. Sure. But also maybe thinking. Think a bit further that, um, uh, if you have a small little river, then most of the surrounding area will be slightly more moist and most likely not be working as well.
Even though if it is this cold, hot contrast, um, so these types of, uh, small thing.
So you won't, you won't follow a river, but you might, you might hit it if it's perpendicular. Is that what you, if it's.
Pretty much you like the river. I mean, it's not per se a valley here in Finland, but, uh, but still, yeah, it's, um, of course it can still trigger, but, uh, there is often a huge risk that is slightly lower. And moist and not working. Okay.
Tell me about when you said, when you said contrast, something that's, I've always been slightly conflict or maybe more than slightly confused with, but when it comes to bodies of water. I've, I've found climbs. On the windward. Side and on the leeward side. And I, and I never really know what to punch for, you know, if you're, because the contrast is of course happening as soon as you get to the windward side, but does it take a while or where are you trying to kind of hover?
I would always go for some like kind of obvious, you know, geometrical shape, kind of a ball shape goes on to the, to the lake and go off there. But then of course, if. You have a bit of wind, it will be drifting. So you may, it may be the windward side of the lake, but you're already, you know, quite on the opposite side of it by then. Uh, no, at least in my, my experience, it's, we are normally leaving quite, um, quite a bit distance, like on the lee side of a lake, because that's normally not three. Yeah. The end of the lake is normally not really working.
Okay. So we're trying to
avoid that area.
Interesting. Okay. Cause then the, in the Sertão, I had quite a few down in Brazil. I had quite a few saves just, you know, it's windy, right? It's windy on the ground. And I had quite a few saves there, just parking myself at the end of a lake. So then, you know, if I didn't get something, I could just ditch. And, you know, because I always found it kind of scary to do it at the windward side. Cause if you don't get something, you might not make it across the lake, but. But now you're having quite big,
big lakes as well.
Yes. Yes. Yes. That's a good point. Okay.
That might be the difference.
Yeah. It's hard for me to visualize that in terms of how it works. It's hard to understand. I see what you're saying. I mean, if you're at the lower side, at the end of the lake, all that air is just coming across all that cold. It doesn't have much to kick off. Exactly. And yeah. Okay. That makes sense.
But I guess it depends on, depends on lake and place and you know, all the other parameters that goes into it. Yeah.
Sure. Sure. What's your process Johanna for planning? You talked about your record. That was more your partner's thing. It sounded like you just, you know, he bombed out, made it happen, but yeah. But what, what do you take me through the process of, of planning, you know, a big flight in Finland or anywhere, but you know, when you, when you were in the air to try to break the record the day that, that he did take me through the process and go, not just that day, but. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean,
I think I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. I put some of that in. it seems to be prognosis-wise quite predictable. Most of the times they are accurate, which is, of course, very nice. So you're checking that and then checking the airspace where it's possible to go. And if you're planning a route, we are normally using the – is it FlyXC it's called nowadays?
Yep, the XC app. Yeah. So you're putting your task into that? Yeah. Are you able to pick up using SkySight or other forecasting models? Are you getting much convergence in Finland?
Actually, there is sometimes convergence lines quite close to the coast that we're getting.
That does happen. So you're getting some coming in from the west?
Yeah, and I've only, I think, hit it once and I didn't realize that was it. So I got scared and landed. That was stupid. And I will never hear the end of it either.
Convergence is an elusive beast though, isn't it?
Yeah, because it's like, okay, am I flying something that I should not be flying? What am I not seeing? Why is it going up? Is it overdeveloping? Can't see? And it's like, yeah.
And one of the things that – I don't know why this hit me with such a surprise, but it did is often conversions can be quite rowdy. And I, at least here in the desert, when we get into a convergence line, it's pretty hands-on. And in my mind, I just don't see it like that. You have these two forces of air and they're coming together and I see that that would be kind of rough. But as it goes up, it should be – just should be nice. It
should be agreeing and nice.
Yeah. You know, like the convergence in Baie is – yeah, it's a little hands-on, but it tends to be pretty nice. But other convergences, especially in the Alps, have been in convergences where you're – It's just, whoa. Oh, my God. This is rowdy. It's interesting. Yeah.
I have to admit that I don't have enough experience to say anything about the convergence here. But at least what I did experience that one time, it was actually pretty nice and smooth.
Yeah. I think a sea breeze convergence can be pretty nice when it's coming off the ocean. It's something I need to also work on quite a bit more. I think Skysight. You know, because – Because it's built by soaring pilots, by sailplane pilots. It's – I think they're really tapping into that. And I understand it can be pretty reliably forecasted. So it might be worth looking into up there in Finland. That would be a good way to go.
Might be. Yeah. Might be.
Might be, yeah. Yeah. Juni's record, how much more is on the table there? You know, how extraordinary was that? Is that – is he just way more to go? Is that –
I would say if you get that one magical day. Because it's 500K. It was prefrontal. It was south to north, which is kind of unique. It's not happening often at all. But actually, he did launch rather late. So there's at least like one, one and a half more hour of day to be spent for such a flight. So the question is, of course, okay, is the world record? Is it possible?
Well, I mean, no one thought it would be possible to do 500. Yeah, sure. And that was possible. Extraordinary. So, yeah. Extraordinary. And kind of the same because first it's like the dream limit was 400. That got broken. And then like what, one and a half, two weeks after 500 is like unheard of. Is it even possible?
Records are meant to be broken, aren't they? Yeah. But
of course, you have the benefit of a very, very long day when you're flying south to north. Because, I mean, you have the polar circle up there. Yeah. So there's plenty of sun at least.
And does your thermal window, you know, around the solstice, how long is the day? When is it possible to get going and survive? And when are you almost certainly going to be on the ground? Because you said he launched late.
Yeah, he did launch slightly on the late side. Of course, these are different days, but we have been launching maybe at earliest half past nine, something like that, like nine, half past nine. And then have been flying until almost like nine in the evening.
So 12-hour days.
But I would say it's still like theoretically possible, 12-hour day. It's a long day. Of course, it's a long day. It's not like Brazil that this will happen like every day for one week and over. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really interesting because when I did the Alaska thing, I really expected the thermal day to be longer than it was. It was late. We could often fly quite late into the evening. You know, it just didn't get dark until midnight, 1 o 'clock, 1 a.m. But it wouldn't start for a long time. But was it then
slightly higher pressure?
How? You know, we just didn't. I didn't have any access to anything the whole time I was up there. So who knows? I don't know. But it was really often. We weren't really flying XC until, you know, 2, which is solar noon up there, you know, because the time changed stuff. But yeah, that kind of caught me off guard. I wasn't expecting that. But that might have just, you know, who knows? That could be all kinds of reasons. Snow, water, you know, high pressure, tons of stuff.
Yeah, because I've noticed that, like, one of the things that... They are complaining about in Sweden is that it does not work at all. Flying high pressure and stable days is just not working. Whereas here in Finland, and it was kind of the same in Norway. It was not really working there either. But here it's working, but it's just starting late. So you can still get a, like, five-hour flight starting at 3 o 'clock in the afternoon. Huh. Wow. And with, like, strong, nice thermals as well.
I can't wait to get up there and fly with you guys. It just sounds amazing. Go and do
some towing with us. Yes, that's the other thing. Yeah, we haven't done a lot. We don't
do a lot of towing down here. Got a little taste of it in Texas, and some of it was terrifying. It's windy. Yeah. It's scary. But
that's, of course, one thing as well. Because, I mean, it's dry and hot and a bit scary down in Texas. I mean, here, that's one of the nice things that it's not like it would be scary to land in the middle of the day here. Yes. It's completely fine. That would be nice. I mean, we're not having... We're
not having
these super rowdy thermals that it would ever be a scary thing to do.
I guess you just have to worry about mosquitoes. That's about it, huh? That's tolerable.
Pretty much. They are actually quite lethal here. They're big and... I've heard. I've heard. Yeah. They're just no
fun, but you're not going to die.
No, exactly. It's going to be a cloud of mosquitoes, but you'll live. It's not like a grizzly will take you or something. I think you've seen worse.
Johanna, I want to be mindful of your time. I know it's getting really late there and you have a little one, but one more question and then we'll wrap it up. What skill... I put out all these questions online and I have fun just dishing them out at all the guests. What skill or thing have you learned from life or any other sport that's helped you become a better pilot?
Wow, that's a tricky one.
Skill in life. It might be actually computational fluid dynamics simulations.
Whoa. Okay. Because
that's going both ways. It's something that I have learned a bit of as a profession, but which is, of course, corresponding to everything we are doing in paragliding. Sure. So it's kind of helping each other that...
Okay. In paragliding is... It's on a big scale and most of the time it's on a bit smaller scale on my computer. But still, it's mainly working the same. I
like it. For some reason, I have to say this. You're just going with the flow.
Johanna, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and congratulations on the little one and can't wait to see you enroll the NEO. That'll be a blast.
Likewise. Thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
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