Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Just got back from the Monarca down in Mexico and all fired up about flying. We had a great week of racing down there, as we always do, so that was a blast. And I don't have any housekeeping, that's about it. 2022 is off to a good start and I hope it is for all of you as well. And I'm really excited to bring you a bunch of great content this year. I've been recording like mad, as I've said in the last couple. So I've got a whole bunch of shows laid out for you over the next few months, and I hope you enjoy them. Today's show is with Johanna Hamm from Sweden, currently living in Finland. And she and her significant other both are big racers, and they travel a lot, and they're both on the World Cup scene.
And she had a really exciting year this last year. She got pregnant and, uh, ended up breaking the Nordic FAI record when she was eight months pregnant, so you can imagine that, uh, certainly brought some attention to her on, on the socials, are both good and bad. And so we talk about that, we should talk about being in a relationship with somebody else who flies really hard and chases it really hard. We talk about risk, how risk changes or not when you have a child. That was pretty interesting to me because I've just been going through that myself, and, uh, a lot of other really cool things. I've run into Johanna in a lot of places around the world, usually at World Cups and stuff, and the British and, uh, she's always got a great big warm smile and she's got a great attitude, and I love how she approaches this, this sport.
I think you will as well. Enjoy this talk.
Johanna, it's really good to have you on the mayhem, see your smiling face here and talk all things flying and Finland and babies. And you've had a big year and it's been kind of a weird year for everybody, but you've been stomping it. So excited to have you on the show. Hi. Hi, excited to be here. Thanks for taking the time. We were just chatting it up before we started recording and you were telling me about where you are. I had to look it up on Google Maps. We've all got a little bit of a fascination with Finland after watching Juni just send it this year. And he had that huge record, well, the two record flights and topped it off with that 500 plus.
But right, it was 500 plus, wasn't it? The second one? It
was 500 plus, yeah. And I think many pilots have gotten their eyes up for Finland. But unfortunately, it might not be so weather reliable as Brazil if you're searching for big distances. Sure.
Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So you're down in the southwest. And when I just pulled it up on Google Maps, one of the things I've been impressed with when I've looked at his flight is just the water. Tell me a little bit about Finland. You guys are surrounded by water, but then the whole country is tons of lakes. There's a lot of water. I don't really understand how it works.
Well, I mean, it's pretty much, well, it's called the land of the thousand lakes, which is probably a bit of an understatement because there is plenty of them. And I would say that most of the flying is probably good thanks to it as well because we have so much contrast. It may be a very flat country, but since it's fields and forests and lakes and swamps, we get quite good thermal triggers. And possibly that is why. And also, of course, it's quite safe and nice when it's flat everywhere.
Yeah, you don't have turbulence to deal with, I guess.
Exactly. There is pretty much nothing. And of course, I mean, valley winds doesn't really exist, only on a very minor scale. And, uh, weather is predictable and, uh, since we mainly don't do towing, then, uh, it enables you to take off in quite strong wind and just drift with it. So, of course, that's, uh, the main reason why we have these big distances and
So the, it's all flat. How, how far above sea level is Finland? What's the average, I
would say the average is maybe around 100 meters above sea level.
so really Really flat.
It is really flat, for sure. If you go way up north, then you have some hills. Okay. But then you're bordering to Norway.
Okay, okay. And it seems like the big ones are north to south, which is kind of the way the country is oriented. You were in the sky with him, but you chose a different launch on the 400 day or the other one?
Yeah, it was a 400 day, so pretty much the north to south flights. Then we have this cold, dry air coming in from Russia, which is really good for thermals. And I had chosen a launch a bit closer to the sea and also a bit further south. But unfortunately, it seemed like it had drained quite a bit in that area, which we had not noticed. And we all flew very fast, 50 kilometers, and Joni flew 400. And I think Pekka Rautoskoskog was also flying 400, landing close to backwards. So definitely the wind speed was there, but the thermals were not really taking you anywhere.
And what's the season there? For those listening who have been watching these big flights go down, when should we show up and bother you guys to take us flying?
You should, in that case, come visiting in the end of May, beginning of June. june the thermal season basically starts in end of april mid end of april and ends around august and of course possibilities every now and again after that and before that but very very rarely and
How, how tall do you get? And, uh, you know, the pictures I've seen of the flying, there's usually pretty good cloud streets. Are you flying blue days too, or is there just too much water? There's always clouds, yeah.
Actually, I mean, for example, my big flight, that was a blue day. And, uh, the blue days are actually, I like them personally. I know plenty of people that, uh, does not like dry thermals, but for me, it's, uh, it's a good thing. And, um, I would say we are easily flying 2,000, 2,500 meter base. And, of course, you're
almost 10 000 feet off the ground that's pretty good it gives you some So it does,
but then again, it's, uh, often you can fly a still good cross country being lower as well. I remember that I have had a flight where I never got more than, was it 1,200 meters or something? And I still flew a hundred K. Wow.
And, you know, again, I'm just going off pictures. I've never flown there. That part of the world, I've been to Norway. I was up there for the winter Olympics, whenever that was, 94, just dating me. Yeah, Lillehammer and Hamara is beautiful. Gosh, gorgeous up there and a little bit in Sweden, but I've never done any flying. It just looks awesome. But from the pictures, like you said, it's flat, so you can handle a lot of wind, but it also doesn't, I mean, are there plenty of places to land? It looks pretty dense, a lot of water and a lot of forest.
Yeah, I mean, definitely these big flights that Joni and Pekka has been doing in a bit more eastern side of Finland. Then you have more forest, like in this western area that's quite, you have to actually search to find a place where it's not landable. There's fields everywhere, which makes it, of course, very safe and nice to fly.
And you were showing me this. What are the sticky parts? What are the tough parts about flying where you are? It sounds just idyllic. You were sharing with me this map that another pilot created called Avia Maps. And those of you listening will have this link on the show notes because this is terrific. It shows all the airspace and NOTAMs and everything.
Yes. It's actually a huge benefit as well to have this real updated information about everything and not having to search from different sources to know what is not allowed to fly into and so on. And also it contains a lot of different information like opening hours of the towers and such. And I mean, in general, we are operating from airfields, which means that we are flying with aviation radio to be able to communicate with the other traffic.
So are you all ham operators? Yes. You all have a ham license? Okay. Yeah, exactly. So you carry an airband radio with you when you fly? Yeah. Is that a requirement? Is that a regulation flying in Finland?
It's not a regulation, but I think it is recommended. And at least, I mean, if you're flying somewhere where there's not other traffic, then of course it's not needed. But if you're operating from an airfield, then you have to be able to communicate with the others. Or if you have someone that you're flying with that does have one.
Okay. I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We should all have our ham licenses and be flying with them anyway.
Yeah, that's true. But how is it? At least in Sweden, I know there are some hiccups regarding it in the regulations that somehow the radio installation has to be approved somehow, which is, of course, not really possible on a paraglider.
Right. And are you talking to the cockpits a lot? Is there a lot of air traffic in Finland? Is it a lot of planes flying around and you're, you know, hey, we're flying just heads up?
Yeah, there is quite a bit of traffic. There's, you know, hobby aviation traffic. There's plenty of sailplanes and gyros and other just private small planes. And, of course, we are communicating with them. But it's most often you're just approaching an airfield, informing that you're in the area, see if someone is there, continuing. But it also opens up the possibility to file a flight plan and fly through control airspace if they allow you in.
Oh, okay. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. We don't fly with a lot of airspace here, so we're all kind of novices when it comes to that. Whenever I'm in the X house, that's one of my biggest fears. And they used to not care unless it was the really serious ones, the CTRs and stuff, and now it's the national parks and it's gotten really complicated. It's quite really complicated to just make a course, you know, a race course that avoids most of it. So I feel for the organizers as well. It's gotten really tricky and it always gets a few athletes. It always gets a few. But it's good that you can fly there and learn it.
Yeah, and of course, especially down on the continent, it's just so much tighter in between the big airports as well. So no wonder.
Here, it's a
small country. We have quite many airports as well, but they are having quite a limited amount of traffic at least. So plenty of them are, for example, only open in the weeks and not in the weekends.
So in the previous years, I've been doing comps a little longer than you have, but we see each other at comps all the time. And I know you're planning on going down to Roldanillo this year. For some reason, I just never connected that you were doing these big flights in the flats of Flint. do you do you consider yourself a flatland pilot or a mountain pilot or both
Oh, very good question. Maybe I'm more of a flatland pilot nowadays. Actually, I do enjoy it a lot; at least it's very, it's very calm.
yeah flying
there yeah
It's nice not to deal with turbulence, and Lee, isn't it exactly?
It's not bad, no. And maybe I've realized as well that, but I'm not as willing nowadays to just be very, very close to the ridges and the mountains. So I have gotten maybe a healthy respect for it.
Is that because of an incident or is that because of the new little addition to your family?
I think that it's actually the addition to the family more than an incident.
Interesting. Okay, so this is a good segue. You just mentioned your record. Was this the record you had when you were eight months pregnant? correct yes wicked let's talk about that that's gonna raise some eyebrows here
Well, I, I was not expecting it either, I can assure you that. So the
record, or the baby, the
record, the baby was pretty expected at eight.
months, I guess it's pretty obvious, yeah.
I, I had a hunch, yeah.
Well, pretty much it was, um, yeah, as you maybe know, my partner is also a competition pilot, so he had the plan of, uh, declaring the Nordic record triangle that day. I was gonna, I mean, had pretty much settled that I will not be doing that big flights for the rest of the season because of, well, obviously what was coming and, um, this
Is your first first?
big triangle yes
no your first First baby.
First baby as well, yes.
Yeah, pretty much. I was thinking that, yeah, well, I mean, flying a triangle, it's a perfect day for it. And you're always in quite reachable distance to go back to the airfield anyway. So I can track along. I will most likely not manage it around, but it's nice to have a plan. So that was pretty much it. And I probably had one of the worst launches of my career. Actually, um, we had 90 degree side wind because there was a lot of activity on the on the airfield, so quite terrible launch. I did lose my winter glove in the launch, so I only had summer gloves, which is, uh, less than optimal in, uh, Nordic spring. Yes, so I mean, well, and, uh, let's see, first leg
I was quite slow, like the first leg always is, on a triangle, and we ended up low after 30k about. And it was me and you flying together, and he landed, and I somehow managed to drag myself up from 100 meters, and then I just thought to myself, "Oh dear God, it's so far to go."
Because then it's like, plus 120k that is written on the instrument, and that alone, not super motivated, right?
There must have been thoughts going through your head, "Is this what I should be doing or not?" Yeah,
it was pretty much like, but it was supposed to be his flight, not mine. I was was not supposed to set this right; it was not quite my plan, but it is a good day, so I will continue. Let's see, and I mean, the the entire course line was along roads, super safe flying. I mean, I can land whenever, doesn't matter, so so I slowly continue. So I reached the first turn point, and then finally, the the conditions really started being like booming, and unfortunately by By then I was on a section of the track that has a roof. So it was flight level 65.
Okay. So
I couldn't top off the thermals either. Oh, man. So it's a bit of a Murphy's law. And mental-wise, it's, you know, every 10K is a bit of a celebration. And all of a sudden, it's not three digits anymore on the instrument. And, okay, that's a goal in itself. Now it starts to feel a bit more reachable. and uh yeah somehow it just um slowly got myself around wow
And yeah, yeah, no single cloud, really, and completely blue. There was no cloud. Wow, you like the blue days? Well, that's really interesting. So you said, uh, you 160 FAI, and that's the Nordic record. Is that not knocking it? That's an awesome FAI, but is that—is it just hard to do triangles in the Nordic countries because they're long and skinny, uh?
Yeah, pretty much. And of course, it's, um, in Finland, it's flatland, which means a completely different story. You're not really getting any of the benefits of it. For example, mountain, mountainside to just be soaring off, going like a highway of it, so it's not possible to fly them like you fly them in the down in the Alps, for example. And, uh, not quite sure why it hasn't been flown, a big triangle in, uh, in Norway, but they do have quite unstable weather. When it's epic, it's amazing, but quite often they have a lot of wind, so it might be why it's not so easy flying triangles there.
yeah that's at
least my theory and
Where do you spend most of your time flying? Is it—are you mostly at home year-round, or are you spending a lot of time on the road and getting hours down the Alps? No,
We're plenty at home, and then just going for competitions. That's pretty much how it goes, I would say, when
Did you start flying comps?
XC or ACRO, oh
Okay, I didn't know you flew acro comps.
Uh-huh, all right. Yeah, I started—I did my first acro competition in 2014, and I did my first cross country competition in 16.
Oh wow, were you doing any acro practice with the little one on board? Not
practice, but just I have pretty much put the acro on the shelf. I'm just flying, you know, goofing around over the airfield, what I can do blindfolded. So, so yes, I did some, but not—I don't think a real acro pilot would call that acro nowadays, like doing sot and the wing oars and some loops and stuff. It's barely regarded as acro nowadays, and
How old is your little one now? Boy or girl? Uh,
It's a girl; she's now turning one and a half. Oh, okay.
So, have you had her up on—have you she been tandem flying with you? No, only in the belly. Only in the belly. I love it, I love it. We took Fallon on tandem, and I—I wasn't the pilot. I was just flying around Todd Wiegland, who's a really good acro pilot and really good tandem pilot, and when she was 13 months and, uh, and yeah, and he did. And I said, hey, you got to do with her what you do with all your normal clients. So I want to see some helis. And so he did a bunch of helis and I was flying around her and I took video of the whole thing and I sent it to my mom, so her grandmother, and my mom didn't talk to me for a week. She was so pissed off. She couldn't believe it. And I said, no, it's
safer than driving a car. It's fine. Hey, it's nice to hear that someone is worse than me, at least. Yeah, so I
applaud your decision making. But, you know, let's talk about that, though. Did you get some funny looks? Was this all okay in Finnish culture or, you know, in our flying community? Or were people kind of, whoa, what are you thinking?
I think that, yes, there was some talk, mostly behind the back. And in flying community wise, mostly it was positive opinions, especially from the females around. I have gotten some interesting comments that has maybe been not so thought through before they have jumped out of the mouth from the persons delivering them. And of course, I can understand them because everyone is having their own background in terms of experience. What I would say they can or should not be doing in general. And then on top of that, of course, you should not be doing something completely new when you're pregnant, that kind of zest self,
I would say. Do you feel like it affected anything from a positive side? Do you feel like your little girl is maybe a little more less risk averse than maybe some babies would be? I don't know. Can you tell any difference that she came out and was just a little crazy person, just loved heights or whatever? I don't know, something different I
Don't know, I think she is maybe a bit more, uh, like liking things that goes fast and a bit more action things than maybe other others, but I have no idea if it's, uh, related to flying or genetics or whatever is related to your
partner's a comp pilot. Did is he finished as
Well, it's finished. I'm Swedish, by the way, so
That's what I thought. Okay, so you, you, you guys met on the comp scene, or, or not? How did, how did you guys meet? And how did, how'd that all come together? Well,
Actually, we met. I was in Finland for a work trip and I brought my paragliding gear with me to see if it was possible to fly in Finland and, uh, and then after that, we kind of started dating after, uh, meeting each other in Colombia after that. Oh,
wow okay Okay. And what does he think? What does he think about you flying when you're pregnant? Is he supportive? Is he a little reticent?
How's that all? No, he's been very, very supportive. But then again, that's kind of the thing because we were all already, you know, quite mature pilots by the time that we met. So I had the acro background. He had cross country background. And we have sort of been teaching each other maybe a bit from the backgrounds that we have. So he started flying a bit of acro after that, and I went into cross country more
and more. Interesting. So your initial push was acro when you first got into flying?
Yeah. I started like everyone, more or less, with an SIV and realized, hey, it's super fun stalling the glider. I want to do this more, and I think the problematic for me that was that I never properly got the training time in, because both combining flying hobby with a career and everything, and I was living in Norway at that point, and it just felt like the weather was not quite there. You got very few flying days in general. The acro training never got to a level where it should be, and it's all, all about being like fresh in acro, you need to get the training time in. Um, so I did the worlds in acro mostly just because it was, uh, wanted to get more female, so we could actually have a female category in the worlds in 16, which we did.
So we did. I think that was the only time there has been a female world champion in acro, because both the other times it has been too few, right? We couldn't have great fun down there, yeah. And, um, but after that, it actually opened this great acro spot in Norway, close to where I was living, gondola up to thousand meters, straight, you know, straight out over water. But I was the only one there, so I tried to motivate myself to train, and I just at some like, if you're alone, your motivation runs out, I would say, yeah. So I think that's what's happened with me, but now it's a booming acro community there.
But I was a bit too early, right? And will you get back into acro? Or you said, you said some some parts of... let's talk about your risk tolerance now. That now that you've had your little girl, what have you noticed that's shifted, if anything? I
would say in terms of The first competition I did after getting her, it was in Slovenia this summer. And I noticed that I'm not as keen on flying very close to the ridges and the mountainsides, for example.
But it's definitely possible to still keep up by just choosing slightly different lines, slightly more optimized lines and flying them a bit differently. So, it in the end result, it doesn't make that big difference, at least in, you know, normal category two competitions. Of course, if you to go to a PWC, then I would say you're going to be left behind, but on this level, it's still okay. Um, otherwise, I think I've been quite aware of the risks my entire flying career, and I'm just not so keen on taking them. I had some injuries in the past, and I think it, it taught me a thing or two, so can
we dive into some of those, or one of those, or yeah, sure, yeah, you
know, young and stupid.
Yeah, because you're so old now, exactly.
No, that was back in, uh, 2014, and I, I managed to spin my cross country glider when I was out flying really low, so I ended up doing a quite controlled crash and broke my ankle. Okay, but two months on crutches, it still is a lot of time to think and quite frustrating for a person that, that is, uh, normally quite active. And then the year after, in an acro competition, then sometimes you're getting this, you know, hot head that, damn, this has gone so well that I feel a bit invincible. And I got that feeling for the, for the landing, and this was because we were supposed to do two runs, uh, this day in the competition, so the ran, the, the landing was on a raft on the ground.
And still, I thought I would do a spin landing, which I'm not very good at doing, so I came in a bit hot, a bit high, a bit fast, and I managed to break my ACL and meniscus on the left, no, right now.
yeah shoot okay
So I had those two, and it taught me that, you know what, being injured, it's not that fun. Let's remember this, step back, think about what we're doing, and I, I found it's, it was quite good timing because I was enough pilot to, uh, to know what I was doing. I got actually properly injured enough to remember it.
Yeah, and I haven't gotten
injured since a
moderately inexpensive mistake, I would call... call that one, you know? Exactly. Yeah, you need... you need the mistakes to learn, but you paid... you paid enough of a price that it really set in. Okay, don't do that again. Ding dong, exactly. So...
I think, yeah, it was a valuable lesson, definitely. And, and enough of a lesson, and maybe in the right timing as well, yeah.
Tell me about the your—I don't mean personal side of it—but your relationship, relationship, how does that work with flying? You're both being pilots because, you know, a lot of the people I interview, a really common theme on the show, and I think just in life with all of us, is how to balance this, how to balance what we do with life, because it is quite a time suck. Uh, you know, chasing it takes a lot of time and and money sometimes if you're doing a lot of traveling and... But it's, you know, it's quite hard to find, for a lot of people, I think, to find the balance, certainly is for me, especially with family. How does that work when you have a partner who flies?
Does that make it a lot easier? Maybe it makes it harder. I don't know.
I would say it does make it a lot easier because you have the same priorities.
So it's, of course, I can imagine. I don't know. Do you have a non-flying partner?
Oh, very much so. So I've taken her for a tandem and three minutes into the flight, she's looking back at me talking about, you know, what are we going to do on Friday night? Honey, you're not interested in this whatsoever, are you? No, I'm not.
Doesn't have any interest. You know, she thinks the Red Bull X-Alps is, oh, that's kind of nice. You know, it must be interesting for you.
Interesting little walk in the park, yes.
Yeah, yeah. no
I think it's making, like, priority-wise, it's making it so much easier. I mean, for an example, we have pretty much whenever cross country season is on in Finland, we do not make any other plans. Perfect. So it's, yeah, because if the conditions are allowing for flying cross country, then we want to do that. And of course, we are sharing the days, but anyway, so do
You, yeah, do one of you fly eye now, and the other one looks after your daughter? Or do you get a babysitter? No,
It's, uh, we are switching days, so we are just dividing it and, uh, of course, it's maybe in the end slightly less flying, but then again, we are also like committing to going even the days that maybe is not looking so promising, and it has turned out that most of the times it's actually working, working better than predicted those days as well. Yeah, um, and also trying to, trying to help each other if, because we both have quite, uh, quite free, uh, work, so if one has possibility to go flying in the week, then, uh, either joining to assist towing or at least, uh, being the caretaker of the kid for that day.
Right, right. So I'm like, helping each other. So what will you do? You're because you're doing the World Cup and the Open, the British Open, right? And enrolled, let's see at
least, at least the British Open. I don't know if I'm getting selected for the uh, for the PWC action, yeah.
It's pretty high level this year, isn't it? I mean, everybody's just dying to go to a comp, you know? I think people are quite motivated. Yeah, yes, very motivated. Well, so, uh, but if you do both, little one just comes with you guys, how are you going to handle that?
No, I'm always staying at home. No, he's staying at home. He went to Argentina for the Worlds. Aha,
You guys get to trade off, nice. Okay, oh cool, that makes sense. That does. And if you—if you had a long break away from your daughter, you know, will this be the first big break you've had, or was you done this before? Well,
I did go to Slovenia by myself, so that was about 10 days when she was around one. So that was the long first long break, and that was like, okay, both for her and for me. You're quite casual.
Aren't you? I'm trying to, I'm trying to. Yeah, I was really dramatic and hard and brutal. I couldn't even talk to her on the phone. Yeah, it's okay, it's fine, not so bad. That's great, but
she's a pretty chilled out kid as well so So it's kind of nice.
So she's happy with dad and that's all fine. That's great. Yeah, that's great. Boy, if you had given me Fallon for 10 days when she was one, I would have lost my shit. That was, yeah. I mean, I think in total now she's four and a half. I've maybe had her, just me, maybe six days total.
She needs mom. mom yeah she
Seems to be quite easygoing kid, so that's
Great, knock on wood. This is way too personal, but yeah, uh, was... was this a planned pregnancy? You... you had this on the map? You guys talked about this? Or was this... whoa, uh-oh, here we go. It was quite planned, okay? We
didn't really have any like big comps coming up that that we wanted to go the year after, so let's see if it's I love
It, you guys are awesome. That's fantastic. Okay, we got a pretty open schedule. Yeah, okay, let's do it.
Yeah, and then of course, like Kovitz kind of happened, but that was not really part of the plan.
right right and
So that kind of kind of halted things, anyways.
Again, way too personal question, but will you have more kids? Let's see, I have no
idea, nothing planned at least.
Yeah, okay. If you don't mind, I'd love to talk about you said that, you know, some of the kind of comments that came out of people's mouths that maybe weren't really well thought out in advance. You said it seemed the look on your face was the... the troubling, more troubling ones came from other females, but what was no...
No, no, it was—it was not from other females. Uh, okay, we maybe did get some comments, but then it was from non-flying, uh, flying-related ones. In that case, non-flying, yeah, that had some pretty strong opinions regarding it. And oh,
because their perception of the danger and that kind of thing
Yeah, exactly. And, uh, no, otherwise it just got some, uh, some minor, uh, comments from, from guys, actually, like, "Oh, but how can you be flying and so while being pregnant?" Like, well, to be honest, I did not get a ended up being a worse pilot just because being pregnant, but I mean, I did actually, I did step down as well, but that was early in the pregnancy, so
Yeah, I mean, you've got more ballast. Yeah, exactly. Flies it better, yeah.
but I, uh, yeah, because I had, uh, when I got pregnant, I had pretty much three different competition gliders and sold one of them, so I stepped down actually to the Seno, which also had like half a size, uh, higher weight span, so I, which just meant that I mean, I just had to take less and less ballast along the pregnancy and then
You just get on the scale each time when you go, okay? Quite as much water today, day... um, did flying ever, did it? You know, when you did the FAI, uh, you know, 160, that took some hours. Uh, was it? That was about eight hours. Yeah, wow. Did, did it take any? Did you notice any difference, any kind of weird alien world stuff when you... we call that alien, you know, I always think of, you know, really long flights, you get on the ground and you feel really strange, you know, just kind of... man, I, I feel like an alien in this, on the, on the ground now. Was there any, was any different? Did you notice any difference between how you normally felt and when you're pregnant?
Not really, no. Uh, I was actually surprised. I had expected I would feel a bit different, but uh, no, it was—it was more of a struggle that I wasn't alone, okay? And it was especially the last leg was super, super slow low, but because I had gotten like this last leg, I'd gotten a slight tailwind, but it was very late already. So, I mean, the thermals were crazy slow, so the progress was like next to nil. And when you have already been in the air for about six hours, you're just, uh, you're struggling with the motivation, right? And still is like, but it's so reachable by now. Yeah, it's so close, yeah?
That it's just like, try to stay in it. And, uh, but I mean, the thermals were like, you know, 0.5, one meter per second, so the progress is slow.
Yeah, slow going. Were you getting encouraging? Uh, you know, were you in radio, radio contact with your partner on the ground? Was he kind of get it, you know, or were you just, were you sort of... I think he was
Actually, sending me some messages on the phone like, "You're doing great, just uh, keep on fighting," and stuff like that. So it was actually, it was really nice, and it was needed as well, yeah.
Do, do you both help each other out quite a bit with, with flying? I'm wondering, you know, there's always that coaching dynamic between a couple that can be really tough, you know? So, if there was a day back in the day when I was kayaking, when I would teach, you know, a girlfriend how to kayak, it just, it very rarely went very well. It was often better to put them in a school, and you know, because there's the personal side of things. Do you guys battle with that at all, or is that something, or do you even do it at all? Do you, do you coach each other? We
Don't coach each other, and I think I have the problem like strategically in competitions that I'm the hothead and I take very—we used to describe my flying style as high risk, low reward, okay? Because I tend to be the one getting all the, you know, the competition horns growing out, and then I'm just full barring it from the starts way too low, and you know, in general doing strategically stupid things in competitions, uh, whereas I have—no, exactly, whereas I have a partner who is very calm and composed and thinks things through a lot, a lot more, so I'm
Getting, he's good. So he, so he, he gives you tips about that and, and it works, it doesn't. You don't take that in a, oh, you know, I don't know because people can not in a bad way, not in a bad way. That's good, no.
Yeah, but I know myself well enough that I, I know that I am doing quite, uh, quite stupid things in competitions that I should not be doing.
What do you think? If you know, obviously, this hasn't happened, it's hard to imagine something that may never happen, but what if one of you stopped flying for whatever reason? You get an accident, or you, you get scared, or just whatever, it just doesn't have the zing that it once did, and you, you don't get—you're not as interested in it—and the other person really is. Uh, what do you, how would that play out, do you think? Or how would you, I
think it would still be, uh, like quite... it would still work out. I mean, that's pretty much how we are living, you know, in in winter time, for example. Sure, when the season—when the season is off, we're pretty much exactly, we're pretty much not flying at all from October to if we're going to Columbia or some winter competition, but in general, we have a quite active lifestyle. So, I think that will still be the same. How
Do you tune yourself up for for something like roldo when you've had a long break? That's
A very good question, because it's always that you are a bit rusty when you're getting there. Yeah, I mean, it's—it's sub-zero and full of snow here. You have no way to sort of warm up, but it's this mental preparation instead of maybe watching some—watching some Moyes and track logs and, uh, that type of things and, uh, you know, trimming the glider and then having a few days before the comp to kind of get the rust off you.
try to arrive a few days before the practice day and get some, get some hours, but I
think it's kind of inevitable. You can't, uh, can't really solve it any other way. Fortunately, Rolda is—I mean, it's not the strongest place on earth, no, and you can always escape to the flats and sort of calm down for a while. So that's, that's—I mean, that's one of the beauties with the place, yeah.
It is very special; it
has everything yeah
Yeah, it is very special. What are your goals this next season, I...
have my eyes set on the declared European record cross country, okay? But let's see, because that was the one that I was trying to do, that that very fast 50k day that didn't very much not happen. So I would say that that is maybe the, uh, the aim for this year and, uh, maybe trying to get one more Nordic record would be fun as well.
Where are the Nordics this year? The
nordics next year is not it's not determined yet it will be determined term in the next few weeks, I think.
I always enjoy that. I had a blast in Macedonia with you guys. I'd love to keep coming to those.
You are welcome to join again. That was fun. We had a great Nordics in Peter Bernard now in September. It looked like it.
I watched that. That looked fantastic.
We had super tasks and strong conditions. Hi. It was fun racing.
Racing, I want to dive back in just briefly into the risk side of things now that you're—you've got—you've got the little one, the—the two accidents you mentioned, I wouldn't think either of those had any kind of fear involved with them. They—well, maybe the spin, but uh, I'm wondering if they—if—if either of those or other ones you've had have ever—uh, have ever left a bit of a fear scar? Yeah. Yeah, and just kind of made you fly differently after that?
Not really. The only one that like sort of event in the area that I've had that has left any permanent, I would say I had a proper cascade with the acroglider in Eulodinies in 2015. And I think that took some time to recover from. I was, you know, cascading for... I did not go in, no, but there was plenty of falling involved and slack lines and shooting here and there and not being right-timed with a glider at any point. So I think that took some time to recover, but I learned so much from it as well.
So it wasn't totally ahead of you. You understood. You saw it all. People talk about that when they're, you know, when it's kind of above their level. I don't know, I don't know what happened. You know, it sounds like, it sounds like you really did
Yeah, I mean, it was still on. It was just, as you know, slightly above my level for not handling it correctly, but I understood what was going on, which for that, I mean, in that essence, it was a very good, uh, learning experience. I did not enjoy it even a bit at that point, but I mean, afterwards you learn, you learn from it for sure. Yeah, but with a cross-country glider, apart from, apart from my crash, I haven't really had any, um, any big events, I can't say. But then again, the acro background is still giving some. I have, of course, still gotten, you know, collapses and, uh, proper blowouts with the with a comp glider, but it has still been manageable.
You're
I wonder, um, what would you say advice-wise for SIV for, you know, budding XC pilots? You know, with your acro background, how much is enough? How much should we shoot for? What's, what's the goal there? That's
A very good question. I've been thinking myself as well, like this, going to an SIV with a comp guy, for example, because that's something I have never done. I have done SIV like early in my career, and then after that, well, you get a bit of a free training through various acro maneuvers you're trying, trying to learn, so I can't really say. I think it's very valuable, and it can also, if you are, are inexperienced, it can also be scaring people, which is not good either. So, of course, it, it depends on at what point you're planning on taking it, and, um, kind of in what purpose as well. Have you done a SIV on a comp glider?
No.
I've no, I've done, uh, you know, I, I did a lot of stalls on my x-axe glider this year. I did a bunch of training this spring over the water and, you know, oh, it's a proper two liner, you know, so it's similar, but, and it's pretty high aspect. I think the, the, the, the, uh, climber two is seven Oh, you know, so it'd be kind of similar to the old ice peak six kind of thing. But, um, I've never done any purposeful SIV on my X one or the, the, uh, my gliders before my CCC gliders previous to that. That, um, I was with, I watched Cody do a ton of them on his Enzo too, uh, just a bunch of acro stalls, and they're just—they were just gorgeous.
And you know, you're losing 15 feet, tops, just nothing. And, uh, really, really nice. And so, you know, I think it's a good, you know, for me it's always just been, oh, I don't want to stretch this thing out. I just, you know, this, this is my... I have the same, same feeling exactly. I feel very confident that, you know, I could do... I've done a lot of stalls, so I feel very confident that I could handle it. But it's when it comes time to it, I just think, yeah, I, I know that it's important. You know, they used to really say, oh, yeah, you just go out on your sea glider and do it, and, you know, save that for something else. But it's very different. I think it's important that we all do it.
Yeah, yeah, it, uh, it for sure is. I mean, I let's see, I have got a one full frontal that went to kissing tips on the end, so in, in Mexico, and that has been the only event where I have, you know, stole the glider out and just back fly releasing out, and it was just the cleanest you have ever can ever imagine, yeah. And that was in, you know, full-on thermic conditions in Mexico, and still like, oh, okay, no problems whatsoever, yeah.
I mean, I think like, I think having a really good back flies is probably the key in that, you know, just a really, okay, just a second, boom, and then you're good. You know, I think that works really nice to just have that confidence. That's what I learned in Ole Denny's, you know, when I went out there for some acro training a bunch of years ago and I was trying to be really aggressive because I was over the water and I just really wanted to utilize this 10 days. And and I had, uh, I can't remember, it was a friend of jockey's on the radio with me and he, I remember one day, yes, and I had, I had the one day where I, I was, I had done something too aggressively and I was kind of in a, was getting ready to go into a really bad cascade
and just as he was saying, "Back fly back," you know, right before that, boom, I did it. You know, I was in in backfly and I was ahead of him and and then then I really, for me, it was just a massive confidence boost, was just okay, I recognized it and I went to where I'm supposed to be, yeah.
Actually, he was the one solving this big ass cascade that I had really, yes, because, uh, I was supposed to do a course with him starting the next day, but I was already on the radio and I was, as I was, you know, plummeting through the air and was kind of giving up because I had tried to stall it so many times and I had, I'd like kind of, you know, not released it in the right timing or something. And then at the end, like, yeah, Johanna, I don't know if you're on the radio, but do it again. This time just slightly slower and you'll be fine.
Really? You know what I'm amazed with is the SIV instructors, they see everything. I think it's really good training to go through what they do. You know, seeing the guys that were driving the boats, you know, and just doing the towing. And I did a course with Dylan this spring out here in California. And he, you know, I could see that those guys, you know, they're kind of apprenticing, basically, that they were really starting to get it. Because I can stand on the shore and look up and I can identify what's going on, but I can't be ahead of the pilot in terms of telling them what to do. And these instructors that just do so much SIV, it must be really good for their own flying because they're always – they're a second ahead of the pilot all
the time.
That's quite amazing. All the time. It's really amazing. They see it in real time. And I think whereas the pilot's always reacting, they can anticipate it. And it must be a great way to learn.
Yeah, I can imagine the same.
Flatlands. I want to talk to you about flatland training because you were in the epitome of the flatlands. I didn't realize Finland was so totally flat. I was just looking at the map here.
So you hit the terrain button and there was no change.
Exactly. It looks the same, it just tilted up. But, uh, what—what can you tell us about—are there some secrets? Are there some things that you know—you're, you're, you, you take, you fly differently when you're in the flats than in the mountains? Are you thinking about things differently?
Well, I mean, then again, uh, the elevation difference, it exists, which means that the thermal will still be triggering off something. So that's maybe the thing that you have to start paying a lot more attention to—the surrounding area. Like, okay, antennas are normally placed on a small height, so antennas should be trigger points, for example. Then you're checking the contrasts a lot, imagining this cold-hot contrasts. Like, if you have a swamp, for example, that is—is in front of them—a thermal trigger, for example. And these types of things, uh, you're still, you're checking. And of course, you have to, it helps if you are, well, known with the area, of course, but you can still fly great without, uh, without knowing the area, I would say.
Of course, it is the, it is easier when you have clouds, like in any place, I mean, that is telling you exactly where to go, sure. But also, maybe think a bit further that, um, uh, If you have a small little river, then most of the surrounding area will be slightly more moist and most likely not be working as well, even though if it is this cold-hot contrast, um, so these types of a small thing
So you won't, you won't follow a river, but you might, you might hit it if it's perpendicular. Is that what you, if it's
Pretty much, you like the river valleys. I mean, it's not per se a valley here in Finland, but but still, yeah, it's um, of course it can still trigger, but there is often a huge risk that it's slightly lower and moist and not working. Okay, tell
me about when you said, when you said contrast, something that's I've always been slightly confused, or maybe more than slightly confused with, but when it comes to bodies of water, I've I've found climbs on the windward side and on the leeward side, and I and I never really know what to punch for, you know, if you're because the contrast is, of course, happening as soon as you get to the windward side, but does it take a while, or where are you trying to kind of hover? I
Would, would always go for some like kind of obvious, you know, geometrical shape, kind of a ball shape, goes on to the to the lake and go off there. But then, of course, if you have a bit of wind, it will be drifting, so you may—it may be the windward side of the lake, but you're already, you know, quite on the opposite side of it by then. Uh, no, at least in my my experience, it's we are normally leaving quite um, quite a bit distance like on the lee side of a lake because that's normally not right. Yeah, the end of the lake is normally not really working.
Okay, so we're trying to
avoid that area
Interesting, okay? Because in the, in the sertão, I had quite a few down in Brazil, I had quite a few saves. Just, you know, it's windy, right? It's windy on the ground, and I had quite a few saves there. Air just parking myself at the end of a lake, so then, you know, if I didn't get something, I could just ditch. And, you know, because I always found it kind of scary to do it at the windward side, because if you don't get something, you might not make it across the lake. But you're having quite big
Big Lakes as well, yes.
Yes, good point. Okay, that
might be the the difference, yeah.
It's, it's hard for me to visualize that in terms of how it works. It's hard to understand. I see what you're saying. I mean, if you're at the lower side at the end of the lake, all that air is just coming across. All that cold, it doesn't have much to kick off. And yeah, okay, that makes sense, but
I guess depends on, depends on lake and place and, you know, all the other parameters that goes into it, yeah.
sure sure what's your process johanna for planning you talked about your record that was more your partner's thing it sounded like you just you know he bombed out you made it happen but yeah Yeah. But what do you, take me through the process of planning, you know, a big flight in Finland or anywhere. But, you know, when you were in the air to try to break the record the day that he did, take me through the process and go, not just that day, but go back to, you know, what weather resources, forecasting, mental side of things. How are you preparing?
Well, it's pretty straightforward, really. Checking Windy, checking the the wind on the ground if it's launchable, preferably if you're supposed to go one way quite rapidly increasing but landable wind. And then, of course, you're checking the uh the thermal prognosis, and that's that's of course one of the benefits with Finland. I think it seems to be prognosis-wise quite predictable, so most of the times they are are accurate, which is of course very nice. So you're checking that, and then checking the airspace where it's possible to go, and if you're planning a route, we are normally using the uh is it Fly XC? It's called nowadays.
Yep, XC app. Yeah,
So, you're putting your task into that, yeah? Are you—are you able to pick up using SkySide or other forecasting models, or are you—you getting much convergence in Finland?
Actually, there is sometimes convergence lines quite close to the coast that we're getting that
Does happen, so you're getting some coming in from the west.
Yeah, and I've only, I think it hit it once, and I didn't realize that was it. So I got scared and landed, that was stupid, and I will never hear the end of it either.
Convergence is an elusive beast, though, isn't it?
Okay, am I like, am I flying something that I should not be flying? What am I not seeing? Why is it going up? Is it overdeveloping? Can't see, and it's like, yeah.
And one of the things that, uh, I don't know why this hit me, was such a surprise, but it did, is you know, often conversions can be quite rowdy, and I, at least here in the, in the desert, you know, when we get, get into a convergence line, it's pretty hands-on. And in my mind, I just don't see it like that. You know, you have these two forces of air and they're coming together, and I see, I see that that would be kind of rough, but as it goes up, it should be just, should be agreeing
and nice yeah
You don't like the convergence and bias, yeah? It's a little hands-on, but it's, it tends to to be pretty nice. But other convergences, I've been, especially in the Alps, I've been in convergences where you're just, whoa, oh my god, this is rowdy. It's interesting, yeah.
I, I have to admit that I don't have enough experience to say anything about the convergence here, but at least what I did experience that one time, it was actually pretty nice and smooth.
Yeah, I think a sea breeze convergence can be pretty nice, you know, when it's, when it's coming and off the ocean. Um, it's, it's something I need to also work on quite a bit more, I think, sky site, you know, because it's built by soaring pilots, by sailplane pilots. It's, I think, they're, they're really tapping into that, and I understand it can be pretty reliably forecasted, so might be worth looking into up there in Finland. This would be, that'd be a good way to go.
might be, yeah. Tell
me about Juni's record. How much more is on the table there? How extraordinary was that? Is he just way more to go? I
would say if you get that one magical day, because it's 500k. It was prefrontal. It was south to north, which is kind of unique. It's not happening often at all. but actually he did launch rather late, so there's at least like one one and a half more hour of day to be spent for such a flight, so the question is, of course, okay, is the world record possible? Well, I mean, no one thought it would be possible to do 500. Yeah, sure, and that was possible, so So, yeah. Extraordinary. And kind of the same because first it's like the dream limit was 400. That got broken.
And then like, what, one and a half, two weeks after 500? It's like unheard of. Is it even possible?
Records are meant to be broken, aren't they? Yeah.
But of course, you have the benefit of a very, very long day when you're flying south to north. Because, I mean, you have the polar circle up there.
Yeah. So
there's plenty of sun at least.
And does your thermal window around the solstice, how long is the day? When is it possible to get going and survive and when are you almost certainly going to be on the ground? Because you said he launched late.
Yeah, he did launch slightly on the late side. Of course, these are different days, but we have been launching maybe at earliest half past nine, something like that, like nine, half past nine. And then have been flying until almost like nine in the evening.
So 12-hour days.
But I would say it's still like theoretically possible, 12-hour day. Of course, it's not like Brazil that this will happen like every day for one week. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's really interesting because the when I did the Alaska thing, I really expected the thermal day to be longer than it was. It was late; we could often fly quite late into the evening, you know? It just didn't get dark until midnight, one o'clock, one a.m., but it wouldn't start for a long time and I just... but was it then?
slightly higher pressure, how
you know, we just didn't have, I I didn't have any access to anything the whole time I was up there. So who knows? I don't know. But it was really often we weren't really flying XC until, you know, two, which is solar noon up there, you know, because the time change stuff. But, yeah, that kind of caught me off guard. I wasn't expecting that. But that might have just, you know, who knows? That could be all kinds of reasons. Snow, water, you know, high pressure, tons of stuff.
Yeah, because I've noticed that one of the things that they are complaining about in Sweden is that it does not work at all. Flying high pressure and stable days is just not working. Whereas here in Finland, and it was kind of the same in Norway, it was not really working there either. But here it's working, but it's just starting late. So you can still get a five-hour flight starting at three o'clock in the afternoon. Huh. Wow. With strong nice thermals as well.
ah, I can't wait to get up there and fly with you guys. It just sounds amazing. Go and do some
towing with us. Yes, that's the other thing. Yeah, we haven't done a lot. We don't
do a lot of towing down here. Got a little taste of it in Texas, and some of it was terrifying. It's windy. Yeah. It's scary. But
that's, of course, one thing as well, because, I mean, it's dry and hot and a bit scary down in Texas. I mean, here, that's one of the nice things, that it's not like it would be scary to land in the middle of the day here. Yes, that would be nice. I mean, we're not having these super rowdy thermals that it would ever be a scary thing to do.
I guess you just have to worry about mosquitoes. That's about it, huh? That's tolerable.
Pretty much. They are actually quite lethal here. They're big. I've heard. I've heard. Yeah. They're just no
fun, but you're not going to die.
No, exactly. It's going to be a cloud of mosquitoes, but you'll live. It's not like a grizzly will take you or something. I think you've seen worse.
Johanna, I want to be mindful of your time. I know it's getting really late there and you have a little one. But one more question and then we'll wrap it up. What skill – I put out all these questions online and I have fun just dishing them out at all the guests. What skill or thing have you learned from life or any other sport that's helped you become a better pilot? it
Oh wow, that's a tricky one. Um, skill in life, it might be actually a computer computational fluid dynamic simulations. Whoa,
okay because
That or that is going both—that's going both ways. It's something that I, I have learned a bit of as a profession, but which is, of course, uh, corresponding to everything we are doing in, uh, in paragliding, sure. So it's kind of helping each other that. But, okay,
in paragliding, it's on a big scale. And most of the time, it's on a bit smaller scale on my computer. But still, it's mainly working the same.
I like it. For some reason, I have to say this. You're just going with the flow.
Johanna, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. And congratulations on the little one. And can't wait to see you enroll the NEO. That'll be a blast.
Likewise. Likewise. Thank you very much. If
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