Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloudbase Mayhem. Quick bit of housekeeping as we're getting into the holidays. First of all, happy Thanksgiving to those of you in the States. Big one coming up this Thursday. But also wanted to let you all know that I now have the book available on the website. Unfortunately, only to those of you who are in the U.S. Sorry, it's just a shipping thing, and we've got dealers that are tied to Cross Country Magazine all around the world, so it's much better for you to get your book from wherever you're from if you're not in the States. But if you order the book on the website, I think I've got about 40 copies between now and Christmas, and use the coupon code HOLIDAY, I'll give you free shipping, and that'll apply to anything else in your cart. So if you need some Christmas gifts for yourself or for a loved one, head on over to cloudbasemayhem.com and line that up.
Again, the coupon code is HOLIDAY, and it'll be good between now and Christmas, December 25th. I guess today is Kirstie Cameron. I was excited to get an email from a fan of the show and a good friend of 4 Acre who connected me with Kirstie. I've been flying with her in the last couple British Opens down in Roldanía in the last few years, so I know Kirstie. But she's had some really cool flights recently, a couple records, and she's been racing paragliders for longer than I realized. Been on the British team. I'm a member of the world's team a number of times and just has gotten after it. And we talk about a lot of her history and comp flying and difference between two-liners and three-liners and her recent move down to a Zeno and why.
And also how flying has changed for her with the recent addition of a little boy. She's got a four-year-old, as I do, so we talk a lot about risk and how that shapes how you fly. And how it may change how you fly and how you pursue it and how it can affect, obviously, relationships, all these things that most of us have to deal with. So I really enjoyed this. We had a blast, and I think there's a little something here for everybody. So enjoy this talk with Kirstie Cameron.
Kirstie, I'm so glad that Viv reached out and connected us. I've actually been meaning to get you on the show for ages, and that was just a great reminder. Congratulations to you. You're a countryman. Thank you. Double gold with Russ just dominating and showing how skilled he is in very light conditions. Well, the whole team
were good. Yeah,
they're fantastic. And I know you've been on that team many times, so that must have been fun to watch, but also kind of painful to not be there.
Yeah, it was difficult, really. I mean, there's various reasons why I couldn't be there this time, unfortunately. Not least the fact that our boy, our four-year-old, has just started school. So I've got a young family now, so I've got a few other extra responsibilities these days. But, yeah, I've been chatting to Guy a little bit, and both me and Guy have been on the team a few times over the years. And, yeah, we're just so, so happy for the team. But at the same time, we would love to have been there ourselves as well.
Yeah, yeah. And like you said, Guy's been on it many times. And so, well, it really looks like... You know, the juniors program that the British have set up is paying great results. And, yeah, I mean, I was proud of them. I'm not even a Brit. They just did really well. It was neat to see Theo flying so well and Seb and everybody. Sure, sure.
They're all friends as well, aren't they, at the end of the day? So it's just nice. It's just really good to see it happen. Yeah, yeah. And for Russ, you know, I mean, it's fantastic. They've got the double gold. Just brilliant for the whole team. But, you know, at the end of the day, I just so wanted Russ to win.
Yeah. And, I mean, he's been second many, many times. We actually talked about that on the show, that he's, you know, he feels like he's kind of lacked that killer instinct over his career and just been shy, you know, Superfinal a couple of times. And so, yeah, it was nice to take home the big win.
Definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely. He deserves it. You know, he so does. He's been so gracious in defeat so many times. So it's just, yeah, yeah, yeah. Couldn't go to a better
person or a better pilot. That was really terrific to see. Well, let's start there. You know, it was the flip side for us. The Yanks just got crushed. We had a really hard race. We had quite a few there that had just competed in their first World Cup. You know, with COVID and everything, selection was quite interesting. It was kind of weird this year, which I'm sure it was for
a minute. Yeah, I
saw that.
Yeah, so a few new names there. Yeah, sure.
Yeah, which is great. You know, it's good to give them, you know, the chance at seeing what that's all about. But how have, you know, I talked about this a bit with Robbie. You know, the Brits in the history of free flight, hang gliding and paragliding, have just done incredibly well historically. And, you know, you don't come from a place that has great flying, I would say. You know, it has very interesting flying. And there's been some awesome, you know, the North-South Cup and, you know, it's a great place to fly, but it doesn't have, you know, consistently banger conditions. And I'm just wondering if that's the reason. You know, you guys have to chase it so hard or what it is you think, you know, because like, you know, you have been on the team many times.
And, you know, you know that game, you flew the R11. You've got a lot of records, which we're going to talk about here shortly. But I'm just wondering what you chalk it up to, the British security.
What do you think is the biggest reason why you think that you're flying in such a bad condition? I mean, I know it's often put out there that it's because we have to fly in such rubbish conditions. But, yeah, we do, I suppose. I mean, I think less that we have to fly in rubbish conditions all the time, more that, interestingly, we don't get, in the UK at least, we don't get a huge number of days each year that are really good days. You know, so we do get those really good days, but they're sort of few and far between, really. So, yeah, I think we're quite sort of, determined, that's for sure, to get out on the really good days and make the most of it. And I suppose we do end up having to fly in, yeah, I say less than, you know, classic conditions, I suppose. So I suppose that, interestingly, personally, I'm not actually that good at flying in really weak conditions.
Oh, really? But it's quite strong, to say. I don't think I sort of fit the typical, the typical UKXE mode, really. You know, and I've had to sort of train myself over the years to be more patient in UK conditions and slow myself down and not get sort of impatient, really, with the conditions. And when I first started doing competition flying and flying abroad, you know, I went to places like San Andre and absolutely loved it because there you can definitely fly at more of a pace than you can in the UK. And I really enjoyed that. So, yeah, I don't know that it's entirely to do with that. And, you know, some of the, some of our team, you know, don't even live in the UK currently and fly abroad.
And so, yeah, so I don't know. I don't know whether it's purely the fact that we're good in the weak stuff. Certainly we sort of, certainly punch above our weight in terms of, you think of the number of UK pilots, you know, quite a small population. We seem to do quite well out of it.
Yeah. I mean, in talking to Guy a while back. And I think it was Roldanillo a few years ago, he was talking about, you know, the kind of the juniors program. It seems very supportive and there's, it seems like a lot of energy is going into your younger pilots and kind of bringing them up and teaching them the ropes. And, you know, here in the States, it's very much more cowboy or, you know, if you want to pursue that, you can, but you're on your own. You're not going to get any support from USHPA or, you know, it's, you have to fund it yourself. And timing yourself. And I mean, I think it, I think that really showed in, in Loma Bola in a sense, the conditions that, you know, you often have to fly in. Cause I, I, I was down there for the world cup a year ago, I guess that was two years ago now.
And it's, you know, it's pretty light and they were certainly had, you know, they had a lot of rain this time, a lot of cloud didn't sound like it was, it was the opposite of strong. And it was just really patience, you know, won the day and, you know, kind of hanging back and not leading out much and, you know. Like Russ always says, being very disciplined and it certainly paid off there. And I think the, the Americans really struggled with that because they, they like to go, they like to go hard. That's not the game there.
No, definitely not. Certainly not this, the last few weeks anyway, that's for sure.
Yeah. Well, tell me about, you've, you've had some records or something. I don't know much about this. What's, what's happened recently with some big flights.
Yeah. We've had some. Yeah. Good flying, flying in the UK this year. It's not been what I would call a classic year in terms of, you know, lots and lots and lots of really big flying days, but the ones that have been good have been really quite good. And we've had some, this year I decided that I wanted to sort of focus on the UK cross country. As I said, you know, got a young family now, what with COVID and everything else going on. I thought this year, I'm just not going to, I'm not going to travel. I'm not going to fly. I'm not going to get into all of the fuss with testing. And everything else with COVID. So I thought I'd just stay at home and just go out on the days that are good. I've got a job at the moment that's reasonably sort of flexible around, around my time in the sense that I can sort of get days off from work at sort of very short notice, which is good to say.
So I just thought, you know, I'm just going to throw myself into the UK scene this year and see what I can get done.
So more than normal, cause like the typical year, I'm sort of, sort of giving out quite a few days of holiday. To going abroad to do fly comps, you know, so certainly when I'm doing the cat ones, it's sort of two and a half weeks out of my holiday leave. And then if I'm doing a couple of other cat to use as well, that's taking up quite a lot of my, my leave really. So, so this year I thought, yeah, just pick the good days and take those off and see what I can do. And it's been an interesting year because there's been a sort of a group of us that got together as a, as a team and sort of focused on the XC. Not just in the UK. Yeah. But you know, in the planning stages, deciding which sites to go to and very much deciding that we're pretty much prepared to travel anywhere in the UK.
Just within reason, not necessarily quite up as far as Scotland, although that has happened this year. But more sort of, you know, quite happy sort of travel sort of three, four hours to get across to a good site, which I'm sure for you sounds like really small distances, but it's quite a distance for us to go each day. Sure. Yeah.
So we've been teaming up with Atris this year. I've been flying a lot with him because he was back in the UK after he'd left gin and sort of between looking for another job. He's, he's been out all the time because his dad lives up at the Malvern Hills, which is a small set of hills out to the west of where I live and takes pretty much any wind direction there. And so we've been going there quite a bit further around to Wales as well. So going back, what, three years, 2018, I think it was, Richard Carter, a sort of renowned UK pilot, especially for cross country, he flew the first 300 kilometers from a site in sort of mid Wales flying right across the, right across England, landing on the east coast.
So we went out to a site in May a couple of times to try and sort of maybe try and replicate that. We managed to do a couple of flights for 200 days. I think we did 250, 250 kilometers in one day. Yeah. Yeah.
That's crossing the whole island, isn't it?
Pretty much. Pretty much. Pretty much. And if you're doing 300, you definitely are. You're getting almost case to case. Yeah.
So that's. That must be awesome. Is there, is there, are you dealing with a lot of airspace when you're doing that? You are.
You are. I mean, that's the other complication in this country. So to do a big distance in this country is quite an achievement because you're dealing with a lot of airspace as well. So. Yeah.
You must get good at that. We don't deal with airspace at all here. So whenever I go to the Xelps, I'm always, that's the thing I worry about the most. It's just, oh God, the
airspace, the airspace. I think it helped to the world again this time as well, you know, because the Brits, the Brits actually sort of, I don't know if the right word is respect airspace, but, you know, probably, probably good at sort of actually flying and actually working with the airspace, you know, and not being too much of a distraction because it is a distraction. And if you, you know, we've actually got quite good at it. But actually doing our flight and also having to, you know, keep on a few brain cells on, on the airspace as well, you know, because it can really distract you. So.
How do you, how do you teach, teach the audience, you know, what are your steps to prepare for a flight that has a bunch of airspace or, you know, for, for me in the Xelps, I use that side view on fly sky high. And that just has been so valuable once I learned how to use it. Cause you can see it, you can see it coming. Okay. And
when I was very young, my mom and I would go over there. And I realize it's all over there
or above there, or, you know, credo talked about it this year that he had to, you know, barely was able to fish through that pretty hard. Airspace, going to piss. And if without that, it kind of thinks tricky.
I actually try and memorize it.
Okay. Yeah. So
I will actually before. If I'm not, if I know I'm ready to do a big flight like that. That I will actually, and it's if it's through an area that I'm less familiar with, I will actually go over that a few times in my head, looking at the screen as well, while I'm at home on the laptop. I'm actually trying to remember roughly, you know what, what airspace is going to be coming up, because typically when I'm doing these big flights, these downwind flights, then you're typically doing that on a windy day, so the airspace can come up at you quite, quite quickly, you know? Sure, um, you know, one minute you're sort of like thumbing away, and the next thing you're like, "Oh, I've got airspace one kilometer, you know, downwind of me," and it can get too late kind of on the paraglider because you haven't got that kind of, or certainly you can start to make the flight quite difficult, and it can put you on the ground because all of a sudden you're trying to sort of crosswind and thermals around, you know, around a piece of airspace, which is a lot more tricky on a paraglider than you can use on a hang glider.
Instead, on a sailplane, it's easy. So, um, yeah, so it's best to try and avoid those situations, you know, and be sort of starting to crosswind earlier than you, than you, you know, um, as early as possible, to try and getting up close to the airspace in the first place, um, because often it's too late once you're up really close to it. As I said, it's put me down for an hour, and I had to try and really, really dramatically crosswind because I've not paid attention to the airspace. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, and in fact, we were doing that on this particular flight from the Yulang Valley, where was quite funny, actually, because we got about, um, probably best part of 100k into that flight, and the first part of our flight was incredibly quick.
We did, I think we did the first 100 kilometers in about just over two hours, which is
Oh, pretty fast. Yeah, yeah, that's fast. 50k an hour average. There's a
group of sort of five or six of us working it, and we kind of thought that we'd be able to, um, possibly break 300k that day. We really did at that kind of speed initially. Fortunately, it then slowed up, and we had a section where there was a lot of sort of decayed cloud streets, really, and all that. All they would do, they were almost providing lift, but not quite, sort of just zeros underneath them. And then, and then the whole lot was in shadow below on the ground, so eventually started dropping through that, and then we ended up scrabbling around in the shadow trying to find clients for a while, which is definitely one of the cruxes of that flight. And then it all switched back on again, and then we got out into an area called the Cambridge Flats, which is, as I said, as I say, just completely flatlands, and that area works really well.
And you get out to that area, and it's kind of like game on again, cell planes everywhere, and Getting much better times again, so that really helped that day. What I was going to say was, so about 100k to that flight we're on radio and everyone's—everyone's mapping was dropping out. I think, um, Joe had lost all of his screen entirely; Guy didn't know where his was, which is typical Guy. He was having problems as well, and they were literally the way the guy described it, the way he was a bit behind at this point. They were waiting for me to catch up, and they come on, Matt used to catch up me to wait for that because I still have my mapping working, and they were literally knew they were coming up to sort of the Birmingham airspace, but it was going to be a bit more sort of dodgy and, uh, Guy's coming on, going, "Curse you, where are we now? What's the airspace?" So it's a bit ridiculous, really.
Um, but yeah, so that and that and that showed really that if you—if you—if no one's gone mapping all of a sudden, you're completely blind, you know, it's dangerous. So, um, yeah, that's quite funny. Yeah, it was a good flight. And then, and then later in that flight, I think we dropped—we dropped Joe, and then it was down to me, Guy, and, uh, another guy called Tom and another guy called Dougie, and both of them were on PBs by the time we got to 190k, I think. Wow, and both—they both went over 200k for the first time, um, as well, and it was a PB for me that day as well. So it was—it was a good day out, yeah.
That's a great day out. And what were you flying? Were you on the Enzo? I
was on the xeno, so I've been on the xeno now for the last two, three years today I
Was gonna say, you've got like me, you've got a four-year-old. We both have four-year-olds. Is that, uh, yeah, is that is that a kid decision, or is that a is that a, uh, hours decision, or just you're you're not getting the time? You flew the R11 for a long time and, yeah.
Obviously, I was, you know, I went on to an R11 in 2011, um, when that glider came out. Of course, it was then banned the same year.
and then I ended up ended up on an Enzo One, and then an Enzo Two, an Enzo Two for four years as well. So the best part of seven or eight years I was on those high-end gliders and, um, kind of a crux point, I suppose. This often happens with pilots when they step down. I had an incident in San Andre on the Enzo Two. Noah was what, seven months old, and, um, it's the only time I've ever thrown my reserve. Uh, was that quite high, about two thousand two hundred meters, about the start gate, about literally a bit less than a minute to go to the start, and it was pretty rowdy up there. Have you flown San Andre? I've
flown there, but back when I was really early and I've, you know, we've kind of skimmed through there on a couple of the X-Alps, not really, but uh, you know, I, I, I had a kind of an eventful flight there when there was—I've never put it that way, but yeah, I mean, I know it can get rowdy, yeah.
I mean, I flamed, I probably flamed more comps there than anywhere else. I've flown competitions, I've flown probably six, seven, eight comps there. Wow, because the Brits has been there a lot and it's very easy for us to get to, and we can jump on EasyJet and be down, down in Neeson sort of two hours. So, um, yeah, it's, um, the favorite venue for British to go to. We haven't been for a while, but it's, yeah, but and historically, I've loved it. I was saying at the beginning of the chat that, um, the first time I flew there, I just loved the place because I always thought it's a bit like, um, if God designed a paragliding venue, it would be San Andre. It's kind of like a skate park for paragliding. The way, you know, like a skate park, they've got all the ramps and the places and all that. You go to San Andre and it's just like ridge after ridge after ridge, you know?
I can fly, they can set tasks in virtually any direction. Yeah,
I, I hear a lot about the that it, you know, from a lot of really full bar racing right on the terrain that it's, it sounds like, you know, especially first timers when they go there, always a little bit like, I mean, and if you don't do that, you're, you're, you're gonna lose the gaggle. You gotta do it, and it sounds, it sounds like it can be a little spicy, yeah.
Yeah, there is a degree of doing that, I think, on the good days. Less, so I think on the good days, you can get up to train a bit more. Certainly, there's um, what I call sort of get out of jail free cars in San Andre. If you get a little bit behind, you can get a little bit, you can just point at a ridge and, you know, you'll get there and there'll be a six meter climb on the ridge every single time, right? You have to wait a few seconds, something will come say, um, certainly in the early days, I quite like that because, you know, you typically be on a lower aspect wing and get a bit behind and you just go, right, go to that ridge and then, boom, that basic climb every time. And it's big climbs there. I mean, I think the time when San Andre doesn't work is if it's windy. If it's windy, it's very thermic and if it's windy as well, it just becomes a bit of a washing machine, um, assuming they're tasking on on, you know, decent days when it's uh not too windy then
It's good solid climbs there. It's not—they're strong climbs, but they're not tiny little cores, you know? They're good solid climbs. So I think it's a good place to fly, but anyway, I was going to say, so there I am at the start gate, 30 seconds to go. It was particularly rowdy that year. This is going back two or three years, and it's been very dry there all season, and we tend to fly there towards the end of the season because in July, August, it's just too windy. Um, I'm too strong. Anyway, it was particularly punchy this year, and I'm up there on the end, so 30 seconds to go, and the wing just went, just complete. I think I was a little bit tight, you know, that classic thing. It was pretty rowdy up there, yep. And you know, this is the thing that's coming out from SIV a lot, you know, just
just a little too stiff, a little too overreactive.
just a little bit too overactive, a little bit tight, and I knew that it was pretty horrendous up there, and it just went on me completely. And I think I just, I think I just held it back just for a split second too long, um, and then it just went bang down in front of me, like literally nose down. This, this is all over the course, the whole, you know, it's like when it's like this, it sounds like that's in slow motion, but this is all happening over the course of probably less than a second, sure. And the gliders down below me, and then it went straight into like a pretty tight altar it, and I just, I just, it's the first many time that I was like, this gliders, I was just completely spontaneous. I just threw the reserve, there wasn't even any kind of conscious, right?
yeah it
Was just... it was just reserve was just out instantly. I just knew it was beyond my control, I guess, completely. Um, so yeah, so so the reserve out, it came and I was high and I drifted for a long way and I came down and the the main we inflated, but I think this is something that's not getting discussed too much with these high-end wings is when the when the thing reinflates, it was it started downplaying basically. So I've got the thing in front of me, probably me down, and oh, it's horrendous. And um, I thought it was going to end worse and it did on this, and luckily I came down hard, but not too hard. I didn't break anything or anything, but that was... yeah, that was a bit kind of like, okay.
just
A little wake-up call.
Just a little wake-up call, and I just, yeah. And then I, um, I wanted to find the rest of the comp, and um, Pepe was there, um, I think Lecky was there, and he had, uh, his xeno with him. So this, this is now, and as you know, just come out really. So this is 2018, and um, he said I could borrow that for the rest of the comp if I wanted to, and I thought, yeah, you know, I'd like to flow in any way and see what it's like. So I threw that for the rest of the comp, and I just, I just loved it. I just loved it, so I decided to buy one, and that's why I bought it, and I just loved it, and I just loved it. I've been flying for the last few years, so, so for sure that incident was, um, was definitely a kickstart towards me stepping down slightly, I think really. And I just really like flying the wing. It's just, it's just, it's just a bit easier to fly.
It's a bit easier on the ground. I like the fact it's easier on the ground, you know? I mean, it's always the case with wings, isn't it? How they behave on the ground is going to be a real big indicator of how it behaves. Yeah, absolutely. And um, it's just a lovely cohesive wing on the ground, and that—that very much translates to how it flies in the air as well, so yeah.
and it's, and it's proven itself over the years as well. I mean, we saw when we saw a ton of people jump onto it, I think the initial thought was, you know, these folks don't have the hours to fly a two-liner, but it's really, you know, it doesn't seem to surprise. I mean, still paragliding, there's still accidents, of course, on every wing, but um, it seems to be quite a gentle one if, you know, if people move to that from a three-liner, it seems to be a quite a nice move for most people, yeah.
I think so. I mean, as you say, you still have to give these wings respect, and it's still a
absolutely still
A relatively high performance wing, um, for sure, but it's definitely a little bit more benign when it does go, for sure. Yeah,
Yeah, a little bit easier to get back than a than an Enzo, yeah.
I think so, I've touched wood. I've not had any. I, I hardly ever collapses to be honest. It's only not in the UK flying, right? But
that's something nice
About UK flying, you don't really get many collapses.
Right, yeah, yeah, you know...
It's only not thermal flying, it is. Yeah, no, it's a good wing. It's a very good wing. I mean, it's often the cases, as you say, people jumped onto these wings because they're the new thing, and they're often when they're initially reviewed, everyone says, "You know, it's the best thing, yeah, it's sliced bread." And and typically it's as a, you know, you're about a year later, you start getting the story. You think you're about to say, "Oh, actually, no, actually maybe it's not quite so good." Um, but I think, yeah, generally speaking, I don't think anyone's really sort of come back and said that the Zeno is a bad wing at all, really. It's
Classic, yeah. It's kind of held up, held up over time, for sure. Um, you know, like the Enzo three, it's, it's been out for a while now, and it's still, you know, people are still loving it, yeah. I
Say to Russ he needs to get back from Argentina and get the zeno to
yeah
They, they, it's coming. Yeah, okay. Um, uh, I, I'd love to hear more about your son and being a mom and flying, because that, that's not a topic we've, we've discussed with too many moms, um, on, on the show. And you know, because I'm asked that all the time. And what, what's changed with your, you know, risk tolerance and how you approach the sport? And, um, I'd love to just hear if there's been a shift there.
has been. I mean, I think—I don't think—I suppose I should say there's been a shift, because I don't want to take risks and all that kind of stuff. But if I'm brutally honest, I think that's not the main reason. To be honest, the main reason is around, well, I suppose there is a—there is a risk element, and that—that stems from the fact that I'm flying less hours. Just don't
have the currency that you did, yeah.
and I think that I'm sort of
Taking more risk, I'd be taking more risk if I was flying an Enzo all the time semi-abroad, you know? Um, in, in, in bigger air and so on, because I do think these wings are a little bit exponential in the way they behave, you know? Like, I think I'd be fine flying an Enzo 3 in the UK, but I didn't think that'd be a problem at all. But I think when you take wings into, into bigger air, they ramp up quicker on the higher end wings. That's my experience of it, anyway. Things get amplified quicker, um, in, on, on these high-end wings. So, so I think, um, given the number of hours I'm doing, it's just a bit more, it's a bit safer, and it's a bit more relaxed, really, as well, flying slightly lower, lower spec wing, but still with enough performance to, to
Generally cut it, I mean I noticed, um, at the in sort of Cat Twos, like flying the Brits, for example, that being on a Xeno is not really too much of a disadvantage, but you go to PWC or you go to a Cat One and you're like, "Oh my god, I'm—you're a major disadvantage being obviously going," you really are. I noticed that in the last World that it was in Macedonia, which was a nominal competition, I did 10 out of 10 tasks. Um, there was two things going on there: one, I wasn't particularly race fit, really; I'd only done a couple of comps that year before I went to Macedonia in August, um, which didn't help, you know? I think by—I think by the end of the second week, I was just about race fit, really, just warming
up at the end.
Yeah, genuinely, really, I think, um, so there was that going on and, um, and also you just, you just lose out, you know, on the longer glides and stuff. You're just, you're just a disadvantage on the xeno compared to being on an nso. Sure, yeah.
I mean, I think you see it, you—you see that when we had Chelan this year, you know, it was pretty hard, you know, on the downwind tasks. The Alpinas would be right with us, you know, you don't really see these huge jumps until you're flying triangles, and you know, when there's exactly where you're flying triangles and you're going to wind, uh, then yeah, you know, then it's really okay. That's where you really start noticing. I think it's mostly Nick Greece said it once that I really appreciated this, that you just have more options on a—you know, it gives you, you know, you have to be, you have to be a much better pilot if you're flying a lower end wing to keep up because you're, you're just gonna, you're gonna come in 100 meters higher, 200 meters high every time, and you just have more time to fiddle around and
you just have
to find that sweet spot that, whereas you know, yeah
I'll come back to that in a minute. Actually, in relation to um, the UK season this year, flying with interest because it was, it was quite interesting. Um, but just sticking to the to the to the question you asked me about being a mom and everything, but yeah, I mean, I think yeah, so so that's, I think that that's the main reason for sort of stepping down in terms of wing is because I just not just not doing the hours, really, just that level of weight. And yes, you then do come unstuck when you get to the big comps. For the most part, I think um, I think just being on a slightly lower spec wing, it is the way to be at the moment, really. But but yeah, still able to go out on a big cross country day or go to a Cat 2 competition and sort of hold my own. I wouldn't want to be on anything less than it, you know, in the likes of, you know, really than you really are.
In a different world, really, um, so yeah, things really change massively, other than the fact I have less, less time to commit to selfish sport, that is paragliding, yeah, because it is quite selfish sport, it is
Quite, quite time-consuming, isn't it?
It's time-consuming, and it's not—it's not a particularly, you know, it's not a particularly exciting sport for, for the family. I mean, they know where no lights coming out watching me fly on the hill and so on and so forth. But, you know, once I'm up and in the air, yeah, there goes Mom. We'll see
her for dinner, maybe? Yeah, yeah.
Quite exactly, so it's like, you know, yeah, quite selfish in that respect as well, really. So, um, yeah, yeah.
Has that been more? Is this something you struggled with in the sport before you had your
son
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think even in and around a relationship as well, it's—it's and even with friends, you know, relationship with friends and stuff. I mean, for UK flying, you have to be able to say, you have to keep your options open in the summer. You have to be able to not make any commitments to anybody about anything, right? Yeah, you know, if it's a really good flying day, you need to better go flying. And and if you did make a commitment to someone and then you're with them, it sounds awfully selfish to say it, but you're looking at the sky and you're not really focusing what you're doing. Because you know, if you're out for a meal or something, or with some friends and in a park or something, and you're just looking at the sky going, "I just want to fly, flying. I just want to be flying." I don't, you know, which is an awful way to beat people, you know, really. So, so I have always struggled with that, but you know, over the years, um, and I, I know it has cost me you
know, probably some some friendships and stuff over time, not because I've fallen out with people, but just because I don't see them enough, you know? Yeah,
Sure, I mean eventually. Well, I'm not gonna waste a lot of time, and Kirsty, she's just gonna go paragliding. I exactly. I've also struggled with this, especially lately, more so than before, and I don't think that that has as much as maybe it does, and with my daughter, but uh, I, I have wondered this, that it doesn't. And then this might be totally erroneous, but I'd like to get your thoughts on it, but I've, I've often thought that that doesn't strike the Swiss and the French and maybe Germans as much as it does us. And let me explain that. I, I think because it's really seen as a very legitimate undertaking, yeah, this is, you know, for the French, and you know, you can make money doing it. It, you, this can be your job. Um, and I've often found that, you know, like when we go through the fundraising aspect of the X-Alps, I just can't stand it.
I can't stand asking people for money to send me paragliding. It just doesn't seem right. Even though when you ask those people, they say, well, you're, it's incredibly inspiring and it's, I love watching it. It's awesome. And you know, I think this is a real personal issue that I need to get over, but what do you think about that? I mean, you know, if you're Maxine Pino, this is your job. This is what you do. It's legitimate. You know, Charles Cazot, this is what you do. Yes.
Yes. I mean, there is a very different setup for them, isn't it? I mean, I can relate to that with UK flying in other ways as well, because I think, um, uh, you know, cycling family and all of that, but in terms of us having access to sites in the UK, it's all private land ownership. You have to sort of almost beg farmers to allow you to fly on their sites. And, you know, some do begrudgingly. Others will kick you off if, you know, the slightest thing happens with some paraglider landing in the slight, they're on place, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I do feel that we're very much begrudgingly accepted as some kind of wacky sport in the UK, whereas, you know, you go to France and it's literally, you've got, you know, members of the French cabinet who fly paragliders, you know, so it's a very, it's a very much a different, um, demographic,
isn't it? Very much a different sort of love, as you say, level of acceptance. And it's, it's much more integrated into the culture almost, um, than it is. Um, because I think that, I mean, how many, how many people fly paragliders in the States, you know, relative I've heard the same thing
since I started 20 years, almost 20 years ago. And now it's about 6,000. Yeah. I mean, can you, I mean, that's just 6
,000. Yeah.
I mean, they say, they say you can with the hang gliding and paragliding it's 10, but I've heard a lot of people say, yeah, but that really depends on how you count, you know, are they just renewing their license and never even flying? But the, the number I hear a lot of 6,000, I mean, it's just, it's pathetic. It's literally,
I mean, most people, even in a place that has flying, if you say that you're, you're a paraglider, they say, oh yeah, I've done that in Cancun behind a boat. You know, they're talking about parasailing. They literally don't know what it is. So it's just not, you know, you don't even see it like you do in the Alps. Um, so yeah, it's, it's definitely not considered, you know, if, if, if I told somebody, this is what I do for a living, which I don't, but I mean, if I did, they would go, what, this is a job. Yeah. It is interesting
actually, because, um, I almost sometimes feel like, sounds stupid to say it, it's such a British thing. I think that my partner, Emma sometimes, she said, you tell them, tell them that you fly, we've met someone new. I said, tell them you fly paragliding. It's really interesting. You know, and it's like, I often sort of hold back and don't want to, you know, cause I'm like, I don't want to, I don't want to fly paragliding. I don't want to, often I think just people think you're a complete loon if you tell them that you fly paragliding. It's interesting actually, um, this year I went to a local site. Um, there's a site quite close to me, so I can get out to flying sites in about, my nearest sites are just under an hour. Um, I can get to other sites in sort of local sites in sort of an hour and 20 minutes, that kind of thing, it's pretty close. But I've got one site that's sort of literally 40 minutes away. I don't fly it very often because it's kind of under airspace for Heathrow.
Not right under the airspace. You can fly up. to 2,000 feet. But there's much better sites you can go. You can't fly any distance from it because... direction down wind just takes you straight towards Heathrow and London, so you can't go anywhere. But it's, um, quite an interesting little site. Um, there's a, there's a particular little flight I'd always wanted to do from there, which you sort of fly down the ridge for a few kilometers and back. And it just, just a really nice scenic flight. And I never had the conditions there to do it. And this year I finally managed to do it in really good conditions. It was great fun. You know, no distance involved, you know, no records, nothing like that, but it was just really fabulous. Yeah. Anyway, that the day I arrived at that other site, I literally walked onto the, it's like a little opening in the trees where you take off. There's a couple of benches there. It's in the middle of summer and it's in the evening, but there was like a couple of groups of people up there.
And there was this guy sat on the bench with his, with some other friends or family. And he says, you're not going to, you're not going to, you're not going to jump off of there now, are you? You're not going to, you're not going to go jump off of there. And I was like, uh, yeah, I mean, just, just like it wasn't, it was no interest at all. It was just like, you're a nutter, you know, and you're about to go and kill yourself. Anyway, so I just thought I'm, you know, so I rigged up and everything and, um, I had perfect take off and I took off and I went straight out to like, you know, two, two and a half grand and fantastic conditions. And I just thought, well, hopefully you might see it in a slightly different light now that I've done that, but probably not.
Yeah, probably not. You're still, you're still a complete nutter, which I guess we all are to some extent. So you just gave away, my next question was going to be, where are you from? Where do you live in the, in the UK? It sounds like you're in the South down by London. And then, and how did you, how did you get into this? What was the, what was the catalyst? Yeah.
So, um, years ago, my uncle used to fly hang gliders. So, um, we used to go out onto the hill and watch him. I mean, not every day, he doesn't live in the part of the country, but when we visit and stuff like that, sometimes we go out and watch him fly. So that was my first sort of introduction to it. And that really got me interested. And, um, yeah, so when I was obviously a lot older, I was only trying to, you know, actually have a go, had a little go at hang gliding and then got into paragliding. So, um, and now I live down, down South. I'm originally from the South. I lived in Wales for a while. Um, but I've been living down South now again for the last 20 odd years. Um, and we live kind of 20 miles West of London. So, um, just outside of Greater London. And I can get out to sites sort of West of here, North of here.
So I can go into Wales as well, reasonably easily, not too, not too huge a distance. Um, so there's a lot of flying sites, but they're all, I mean, I'm sure compared to what you're used to, they're, they're tiny, you know, the site down South, tiny, um, but all you need is somewhere where you can get off and find a climb. And once you're up in a thermal, it's, you know, you're up in a thermal, the site doesn't matter anymore in that sense. So we sort of tend to call them sort of little launch pads really. Um, there's a site we flew this year, um, which is kind of just North of London going up towards a place called Luton. Which is another airport there. And the site is under airspace when you take off it's three and a half thousand feet. Um, but you fly West from there. It's an easy launch and eventually you end up in less airspace restriction.
And, um, it's not a site that gets flown that often. And it really is literally a launch pad. And that way you'd be amazed if you went there. Even British pilots were amazed when you go there because you take off in pretty much a flat, field and I'm genuinely mean pretty much a flat field. It's got very, very slight slip to it. You can't soar the bit where you take off and you take off and you just flop into this. You literally have to pick your feet up, go over a couple of bushes and flop into this tiny bowl, which, and I, and again, I'm genuinely not joking. If you, if you flew to, you could fly to the bottom in about 10 seconds.
Oh my gosh.
And, um, but the back of this small bowl is kind of like some huge beech trees, which. Kind of almost double the height of the hill really. These trees and, um, you can, and people have done, you know, people have done over 200 kilometers. Oh
my gosh. It's just, we wouldn't even look at that as a place. I mean, you know, we're always talking about, well, you don't have that much room to work. Yeah. With 2000 feet, you know, you you're talking about, you've got less than the tree tops.
Yeah. I mean, yeah. I think the whole height of the hill is probably sort of three or four times. Three or four tree height.
I guess this is why the Brits are so good at, you know, low saves. You're not for you. You're not even low for us. Oh my God. Right on the deck. And for you, you're well, we're way above launch height. This is nothing. Well,
that's right. I mean, one of the sort of things that gets said is when you take off from a British Hill, you're your first climber is your first life saved the day.
Oh, that's great. So you're, you, you said your, your,
your
Uncle was a hang glider, and he kind of got you. How long ago was that? How long you've been flying?
So I, I've been flying, I kind of learned sort of at the end of the 90s, um, but I've of been sort of properly into it. So from sort of about 2005, 2006, I did my first comp, um, out in, um, La Rania, which is not too far from San Andre when they first sort of started the ozone Chabot open out in France. I think it was the second year that had been run on the third year in 2006. That's my first call. And, um, haven't looked back from there really. I kind of, so that was that comp. And I think I finished, I finished top woman in that comp and out of all of the back, back in the days of DHB one, two, I was like second, the DHB one, two class in that call most of the gliders really.
So that was, uh, yeah. So that was like, oh, okay. Um, not too bad, too shabby. So the following year I did, um, the Brits first time I did, uh, did a competition in an opening Piedra heater and then an opening San Andre. In 2007. So, so yeah, so sort of about four, 15, 16 years now. And
his have, have comps been the most, is most of your focus gone into comps? Sounds like lately it's been more kind of, you know, distance and kind of fun stuff and got a nice group of people there. You can go hunt down big distance with it, but it's most of your time been comps.
About half and half to be honest. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've always done quite a bit. I've tried to do a reasonable amount of XC. I've never had the chance I had this year to really just focus on just on the XC. I've always, you know, I've done a reasonable amount of XC each year, but yeah, I mean a lot more comps, um, than I'm doing at the moment for sure. Yeah.
Yeah. Normally most years I've gone for a good seven or eight years. I've been doing at least one cat one each year and doing at least two or three comps as well. When
you look back at those, you know, 15 years of flying comps, was there any kind of aha moment breakthrough moment where, you know, like Russ talks about discipline, has there been any kind of a mantra or something that's really clicked for you in those years where you've gone, okay, I've got this at least somewhat figured out.
Well, sort of like the opposite of that, I was going to say the very first time I did the Brits in Piedra Gita, I did terribly. I mean, absolutely. Um, I mean, I was, uh, you know, it was a proper kind of, um, what's the word, kind of toughened me up, I suppose, because I was a real leveler. Just
took your ego and shook it around and stomped it on the ground and walked away. I was
in tears by the end of that competition. Like I say, the year before I did quite well in this entry level competition, I've been doing some quite good distance flying as well, you know? And, um, I think I, yeah, the beginning of that year, I'd gone out to Australia. Um, I was on a project which I'd run, you know, I'd gone to Australia, um, I was on a project which I'd run, and they kept telling me when I'm going to take my leave. And then the next minute they were saying, well, we need to do all this work. So I made a bargain with them that, um, if I finish this project, can I just take all of my leave in one go? So I took six weeks of leave and just went out to Australia. And, uh, just literally went down the Eastern seaboard doing loads and loads of flying. And I went to Manila and, uh, did my first 100K and just, yeah, I had a great time with all of that. And then I came back and I went off to this competition in Piedra Gita in
the summer and thought that was reasonably okay, I suppose. And I was literally just bombed every single day. I just couldn't get the measure of the place. It's a particular type of place to fly. It's Piedra Gita anyway. And, um, yeah, I just, I literally, I mean, and of course it's a place for doing quite big distance as well. So you get all these pilots, I'd be back at the bar, you know, at like one in the afternoon and they'd get back to like nine in the evening or something and they'd all come back and they'd all flown 150K across this one. And, um, yeah, it was very demoralizing. Do you think,
do you think some of that was, uh, when you look back at that, do you, do you think some of that was expectations? I mean, was it, was it that you literally went in thinking, yeah, I can, I think I can do pretty well here and you just didn't have your eyes wide open?
Yeah, I think so. I think I certainly wasn't aware of, I think there'd have been a reasonable degree of trying to chase pilots going on then. Uh, and I was on obviously on the lower aspect wing anyway. Um, so I think there was a certain case of trying to sort of keep up with the jet, instead of being just failing and then falling out the bottom of the climbs and then being stuck on the ridge or all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I think that, that didn't help at all. Yeah. Um, but, but I sort of picked myself up from that and went to St Andro. And as I said, earlier on, really enjoyed it there. much better, much better time. So that was, that was an, an early lesson in how to be, how to sort of control, delete, reset yourself and carry on. Um, and then, um, Can
we? Yeah, sure can
we? Real and. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Before you, yeah, quantity is passing,
You leave that? Can you dig into that a little bit more? Because I think that's something most have experienced. I had a similar thing where I had some real beginner's luck and thought, "Wow, I actually know what I'm doing here." And I then I learned I really didn't, and my ego just got floored. And, uh, and it's also not that fun. It kind of sucks going to a comp and sucking. It's pretty hard. Uh, it's just like, "God, I gotta do this again." And, oh, there I go again, I suck. Uh, and so, yeah, yeah, yeah, what she
said that it was, um, one of the sort of traits in me that he really likes is the fact that I have over the years been prepared to get myself back up and carry on, because it does wreck certain pilots. Some pilots just can't deal with that, you know, and they'll be up and coming, they'll be a good pilot, you know, in terms of their actual flying. When it comes into like a competitive environment, they just can't handle it, you know, if they're not winning, so to speak, um, you know, and at the end of the day, only one person wins and everyone else loses. So, um, yeah.
there's a
lot of
losers in our sport, yeah.
Exactly. I mean, you think—you think about the world, you know? Um, you've got 150 pilots there, and Russ won, and you know, you've got people that are way down in that competition, you know? But, but they're there, and they're competing, and they're helping make that competition what it is ultimately. So, yeah. But, um, yeah, you do have to have a certain—like, any sport, isn't it? It's mental, really. But once you get to a certain level with your flying in itself, in terms of your sport, you're going to have to have a certain skill. The rest of it is just a head game, really. Um, so you have to, uh, you've got to learn to deal with defeat. You have to learn to deal with defeat and competitions and to progress, really, because you will, you will, you will fail to start, if you know?
So you learn from that. Have
You have, you kind of identified any type of mental place? I'm not articulating this very well, but you know, a head space, a particular head space you try to take into a comp. So you're, you know, let's, let's imagine it's February. You're, you're getting ready to leave the UK to go down to the Brits and roll the Neo or the World Cup or whatever, uh, you know, you pick it. And is there, is there some kind of a place you try to get to before you arrive? I
Think so, I think, um, I think it's to try and be humble about situation, actually, to realize that at the end of the day you're just doing, you know, a leisure activity that most people never even get on a paraglider, let alone start playing competitions and so on and so forth, you know? So I try and sort of, certainly, if I'm, if I've had a bad day, that's the kind of place I'll take myself to, you know? And I've always enjoyed the comps for the sort of the buzz of being with other people, being in a different country, you know? There's so much in there to take from a competition, um, and as much as if you're trying to be competitive, you have to try and keep a competitive edge, and it's not just about being on a leisure holiday, but I think on the days when I've done badly, then I, that evening, I'll just sort of meet up with, meet up with the guys and have a chat and, you know, have something to drink, have something to eat, enjoy where I'm at, you know?
Like somewhere like, um, when you're out in your denier, it's just a great place to just hang out, isn't it? You know, say, um, I just try and just sort of go into that, into that kind of a space, really, and and just, um... Just be thankful for things that I, that I do have, you know? That helps, that definitely helps me get to a better place rather than being upset and cross about the fact I've had a bad day, because at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Yeah, yeah, it really doesn't, you know? It really doesn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's something, um, I did a talk recently, um, to my local club, and I was, I wanted to touch on it more, but I'll get some time constraints, but whole thing about, um, um, you know, the red mist really in flying, uh, especially in competition flying, and you know, like if you're, if you're playing a game of tennis and you're getting uptight because you're losing, you know, and it means you hit a few bad balls and the ball goes out the court, that's not going to kill you, whereas in paragliding, it could kill you literally, you know?
Um, and I think there's even though just in cross country flying as well, because I'm around a bit now, but like on big flights, people see that you've done a big flight and everything and they think, "Oh, you know, I bet that was lovely. You're up, it's, you know, five thousand feet the whole day, cruising along." It's not like that at all, because you always get low moments in a big flight. Maybe one, maybe two, maybe three. Well, you've got to get a low save somewhere, you've got to dig deep, and and it's that whole sort of thing about how deep do you dig before either you might literally be—it sounds melodramatic to say it, but literally digging your own grave—because getting wrong on a paraglider, it can unravel alarmingly quickly. I think that's something I've learned over the years as well. You can be, you can be in a really good place, can't you, with your flying, and literally within, you know, a few seconds, you can put yourself in a really bad place.
You're not careful, and that and that has caught me, caught me out, and I, you know, I've had a couple, couple of instances over the years where I have actually hurt myself because I've allowed myself to get too stubborn, too determined. You know, Russell said to me, "Oh, you're good because you're, you know, you're stubborn and you're determined, you don't give up." You know that thing of not giving up, but there is a certain point where you have to give up, because if you don't, you're probably going to hurt yourself. Um, so um, how Do I get onto that, yeah?
I mean, I, I think that that's, uh, it's certainly a topic that comes up a lot too. Is it, you know, that I think
It's, it's, it's a funny thing to try to, um, not teach, but just, you know, I think it's a funny thing to. I always worry about, you know, people getting into the sport because I remember that time, and, you know, it's, it's one of these weird ones where, like, any sport you name it, you have to make mistakes to get good. Yes, uh, but our mistakes hurt. And, yes, uh, yeah, I mean, I don't know if you saw, I just did this article for XC Mag about why this was my last X-Alps, and it was really, totally—I mean, there's a lot of reasons, but the big one is just that you can't compete, you can't be even remotely competitive in that race unless you're constantly pushing way farther than you ever should.
These are not things that we're normally doing; I don't even think those—the people that are winning are normally doing that. Just going out, it would be, it would be terrifying, and it would be wrong. You can't do that all the time, um, and it's, and it's, yeah, I, you know, you, I think there's, it's a good thing every once in a while to pull back and get some perspective on that. Tell me about the, some of the accidents you've had. Um, you, you talked about your reserve toss in San Andre, but I don't know what happened.
I've had a few accidents over the years, and they've all been in competitions, save one. Oh,
wow okay
Um, and I think they've all been in competitions because of that, that doggedness, you know, and that not wanting to give up, not trying to make defeat. Um, and a couple of them have ended up hurting me, you know, so I had, um, uh, so I had one instance. Well, I had a very, I had an incident, very, very early on. It was not into your competitions; I had a towing accident, actually, which could have easily killed me, and I fractured my back in that one where I, I basically had the wing up with knots in my lines, and then when I was, I was on course at the time, and, uh, the rider collapsed on me, uh, very fortunately, the operator guillotine, which I'm sure also helped save my life, and, um, I came right down a little too quickly.
Um, so that was not good. Um, all the others have been in competition. Um, I've had two, two major incidents. Um, one Was um in Portugal, Montaigus, we were, you know, these classic examples where you look back at it and with the hindsight of all the things going on on that launch, it's like it's it's easy to see what what was happening. But um, we had uh gusties and backwind and all of those kind of things going on the launch, so it was obvious that there was things to be aware of that day. And um, I took off and um, turned right along the ridge. We've been told not to fly too far along this ridge, fly along into a little bowl,
and I went on this ridge and I was sinking out and I just went through a really, really horrible bit of lift which I flew through, okay? Um, at which point I probably should have turned out and gone out into the valley, but people were sinking out really badly in the valley, so I made the wrong decision, as it turns out, to fly back along the ridge again, um, at ridge height or just below ridge height, and I connected either with the same piece of air or another piece of air, which
Did a piece of involuntary SIV on me on the glider. It's on an Enzo one, and apparently, it looked like I had literally done SIV a ridge fight on on the glider from what people said, and um, it went into um, I caught it, but then it went into twists, so I ended up with three or four twists on the glider, and I'm now descending, and I managed to um, land on a very, very crash onto a very, very steep part of the hill, and um, got away with it. I didn't actually break anything, so
You weren't, you were, you were trying to just, you, you were like, "Okay, I'm beyond the possibility of a reserve, I'm just going to try to pilot this." Yeah, I was so low. I mean, I was so
low, all I... all I had the wherefore, it's like I've been punched. It was that bad an incident, so by the time I'd sort of mentally come around from being punched, I was like literally about sort of 40 foot off the ground. And yeah, before the next thing would have been to go to reserve, but the ground's now coming up so quickly, I just buried what I had left in my grave and just hit the ground, basically. So that was, um, that was a an incident which could have been avoided if I'd been more reflective about what was going on on the on the side, because I imagine I was too dusty, probably. Yeah, that's probably what happened, um, and yeah, so I should have been more aware of that, and I should have just flown out into the valley and taken my chances and all the other gliders that were sinking out
Right, and I think because I
just got out of course from
Out in the valley, so that's why I should have done it, sure. And like you said, it at the end of the day, who cares?
Yeah, exactly. So that was that incident, and then I, um, the most serious incident I had was in the wilds in, um, in Rolder, uh, in 2015. Um, so we're going into the last task and I was lying second place female in the court behind Sake, so I was in a very good position after two weeks of, you know, very competitive flying, and I absolutely loved it. It was the first time I'd flown in Rolder and I took off and I had a knot in my upper knots again, a lot in my upper break cascade.
Um, and it meant that every time I tried to, the glider was flyable. Um, I just, I didn't really have too much problem with roll control, but every time I tried to fly on full bar, I'd get a collapse in that side of the building. Um, so I couldn't basically fly full bar. Um, and even flying on half bar, I was having to sort of weight shift and
I was having to sort of fly on half bar, and I was
trying to keep the glider straight, so it wasn't great. And in a normal situation, you just go and land, you know, you just go and land, but you know, classic situation, I'm in a good position in the competition. I didn't want to have to go and land because of this, um, so, um, I haven't... the thing with that situation is I'd actually flown away from takeoff by quite some distance before I even noticed there was a problem, because I hadn't gone on bar. Of course, I was thermaling and
Sure, I got sort of
At the start gate, the start gate is typically there way away from launch. They were in that competition, so I was like three, four k away from launch before I didn't notice the situation. Now I've got 20 minutes before the start, and then the start came up and off I went, of course, and I started going on bar for the first time and I noticed this problem. Um, so I carried on racing basically, and I ended up getting further and further behind because I couldn't properly be competitive on bar basically. Um, and I ended up further and further back on the task, and then I ended up in a sort of scrubby area off to the east, um, slightly off track now because I was trying to work deep climbs, and again I wasn't really focusing on the day because the day was actually switching off. No one actually made goal on that particular task in the last day, not a good pilot, but of course I was all I was thinking about was my position, the fact that I was miles behind in this task, not properly taking account of the fact that the sky had changed and the conditions weren't great anyway.
And if I'd been thinking about that, I probably would have realized, you know, maybe pilots wouldn't have got to go around, and of course I'm trying to stay up in this low scrubby area, and um, I came onto a ridge, and I'll never know quite what happened this day, but I was crabbing along this small ridge about to land on it, so the day switched off, and um, the glider just went on me completely. Don't know what happened, and I landed on my back and fractured my back, um, and I'd imagine it was again, it was to do with the configuration of the lines and everything. There's a knot in there, maybe no one else was there, so that that day didn't end well either. And again, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that, but I'm going to, you know, another example of yeah, shouldn't have been doing it, really did
Kirsty, have you had any the those incidents, or in San Andre, has there been any kind of fear injury that's gone with any of those? Has there been any kind of—I know that they, we often talk about that, it's not so scary if you totally know what happened. Um, you know, if you can kind of relive it through your brain, and you know, you run flow, and I saw, you know, it all happened really in slow motion versus what the hell just happened. What happened there? It was, it sounds like that second one was, or that, that one you just discussed, yeah, like that, the one
In the one in um, in in Rolda, I don't really know what happened, um. And like I say, all I can really put it down to is there was the fact that glider wasn't in its proper configuration; that's what caused that to to happen, but I don't actually know, and no one else was there, and it was when it actually occurred, I was only sort of, you know, 20 feet off the ground anyway. So yeah, I don't know, I don't know, um, yeah, I suppose instance like that should, should have, should have changed me that if going to find briefly always it hasn't. Yes, none of them make me think I should stop paragliding, right? And and when you, when you sort of dwell on that, you kind of think I must, I must be a nutter really, because seriously, because I think a lot of people in a lot of walks of life, you know, they think paragliding is completely bonkers in of itself, you know, they would even think of going up in the paraglider, sure.
They like the guy on the hill that day, you know, telling me I'm mad, you know? And yet I'm, I'm quite prepared to carry on flying even though these things have happened to me, which um, I don't know, either shows I'm mad or it shows that the sport is just so utterly addictive and such a compelling thing to do that that trumps everything else, and I think that's probably it really. I just, I just love paragliding, so
I think we're all a little bit nutter, for sure. Um, Kirstie, just—I want to be mindful of your time here. I know it's getting a little bit later in your part of the world, but I'd love to ask you a few just kind of quick questions, but you don't have to answer them quickly, but just kind of fire some some random stuff at you here. And yeah, sure, we'll try and not
dive off at a tangent.
No tangents are great. Dive as much as you want. So, um, okay, what's the funniest thing you've ever seen in flying recently? The funniest thing? Yeah, you're a Brit and you all have great humor. You
Yeah, okay. I can think of something that's quite rude, actually. That, not rude, but just like, just unbelievable, okay? Which is, um, the very first cat one I did was in, um, uh, in Mexico, uh, in vying, and, um, I was—that was my first cat one team comp. Uh, Russ was there, and there was another pilot, I don't know if you've ever met him, called Mark Hayman. Yeah, he's a—yeah, Mark, who's—he's kind of retired from paragliding in those days, but he's such a character, and you know, he'd be quite blokey, but just always, just having stitches, but everything. And, um, he—we were, we were stood in the, uh, the queue.
Um, I, I used to have like the Red Bull arch, and yeah, he's all kitted out. You know, you're always a bit like a trust chicken, aren't you? You've got your gear on and everything, and you know, and they were, they were quite particular. They're out checking the radio, and we're all, we're all like, you know, so the last thing you want to do is, when you're in that, in that queue, you've been queuing up for a while as well, and the last thing you want to do is exit the queue. It is like, I was like, well, you have to go out the queue, you know? He's like, "Nope, nope," and he just literally went there and then
I was like, "Oh my god, I cannot believe you just done that!" But yeah, that's right in front of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's fantastic. That's
quite hard to hide you.
know exactly yeah
Yeah, that was funny.
What would you like to see more of in our sport, uh?
I would like to see more, um, I would love to see more. I mean, it's a classic, you know? I'm about to say this, but I would love to see more women, um, competing. Yeah, I think, I think actually I like the fact that we all compete together, you know? There's not like in other sports like tennis where it's all, you know, all the women compete together and all the men compete together. I think having everyone competing together is a good thing. I think it actually, over the years, certainly when I first started doing cat ones and obviously flying, not just with a few other women but with a lot of other people, or mainly men, helped me improve my skills hugely. So I actually quite like the fact that we're mixed in that sense, and I love the fact that, um, I think actually I like the fact that we all compete together, you know? There's not in paragliding competitions, again, you're not, you're not flying in kind of like a, what's the word, like a different leagues?
You're actually all flying together in that competition as well, because then you know it's literally like me, you know, when you first start doing a competition, it's like you might be there with, you know, someone like Sir Chrigel or Russell, whoever you know who you know. What other sports do you get to actually do that, you know? You don't. So, um, so, so, but yeah, I think it would be lovely to have more women flying in the sport, um, especially in the UK. I mean, the depths of Women competing in competitions in the UK is incredibly low, so so yeah, it would be good for that to happen. Um, always get asked as to why there's less women flying, but that's a whole another conversation, really. I think do
You have a—I mean, we have—I had a great conversation with Adele, uh, about this, you know, a few years back, and she had some great thoughts. Do you—do you want—do you want to touch on that for a bit? Is it—is yeah,
I can do, yeah. It's something I've been asked lots of times, obviously, but um, why? I mean, I, I think at the end of the day, it sounds sort of glib almost to say it, but I think most women are operating in a completely different level of risk, really. So, I, I think a lot of women don't get into the sport because just the act of paragliding in itself, you know, um, it is considered to be a risk, and I think a lot of women don't get into the sport, too dangerous, I think, probably. I think there's an element of that. I think men typically are prepared to take a lot more risk. I think, uh, I think their risk in the globe is really, is quite different. I think there's an element of that, but I think the women that do get into it, I mean, there's absolutely no reason, really, apart from, um, some of the you
know physical constraints around wings, wing sizes, and stuff. There's absolutely no reason why, why women can't compete at the same level as
There's so few actually getting into the sport in the first place that it's, it's hard for that to get and get translated into into women doing big things in the sport, yeah.
And I mean, I think it's, it's, uh, it's really proven itself out in the last few years as well that, you know, you, you do have radically smaller numbers and yet, so you can't expect, you know, huge numbers at big comps, but you know, you've seen Seiko and Laurie and this, in this world's, Yale was 18th or 19th overall. I mean, yeah, she's tiny, yeah. And Laurie and Yale, were they were crushing in the X-Alps, not where they did, they both did, um, you know, which is an incredibly physical endeavor, yeah. So it's, yeah, yeah, I mean there's, there's definitely this huge disadvantage with the weight thing and, you know, with Bruce doing this weightless comps is, I think, an awesome idea and I really hope
It's more teeth, but um, it becomes a lot more popular because it's—it's there, really truly is a massive disadvantage there that we don't need to get into, and it's been documented a million times. But what's great about paragliding is it doesn't require much different physical ability at all. It's no, it doesn't—it's like you said, that's right.
exactly it's a
very finesse sport, yeah.
Exactly, I mean that's one of the reasons why we can sort of compete together, really, because on a sort of purely physical level, other than having to sit under a small wing, you know, there's nothing really going on that, you know, you can't do as a woman, same as a man, really. You can all walk up a hill, you can all pull some strings, you know, so um, yeah. But it's just getting more women into it in the first place. I mean, other reasons, I don't, I don't know. I sometimes wonder if it's a social thing. I mean, I know flying competitions in of itself, quite social, but the actual act in itself is quite lonely, almost. I suppose I don't know whether that's part of it. It's not a team sport in that sense at all.
right i
Mean, I know we talk about the team of the world, but when you're actually doing, doing it, you know, it's, uh, it's a, um, it's, it's a solo effort, isn't it? Entirely. So, so I don't know if that comes into it a bit as well sometimes, maybe. Um, yeah, does your partner fly? She has flown. Um, she didn't fly before I met her. Uh, Emma didn't fly, and she, she felt compelled to have a go when I, when we started going out. That wasn't for me. I really don't feel that, you know, your partner has to do what you do, sure at all. So, but she, she was sort of under her own volition, decided she wanted to have a go, and she did get qualified, but she never, she never got the bug, you know, she never really got bitten by it. Um, but she actually, something she absolutely wanted to do.
Um, so, um, and I, and I do think that actually, I think probably with Emma as well, I think it's to a degree, it's that whole not that it's a lonely sport, but you have to be very
self-confident, I think, with it actually. And I coming back to the whole thing about mental side of things as well, I think I noticed that in my, even in myself, sometimes it's quite a, quite a thing to go onto a hill and set up all your kit, you know, which again, you're doing on your own, essentially making sure all of your stuff is going to work for you. There's no one else to check it, really, as such, and then getting into the air and then making all your own decisions about what you're going to do, you know, it's quite, it's quite a thing in a way, and I think it's not, that's not for everyone, is it? You know, um, so how
Do the two of you handle your obsession? How does that work in a relationship? That's—that's one that—that's a question I get from a lot of people. I can navigate this. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, like you said, it's—it takes a lot of time. It
Does we talked about it earlier on a bit and, um, yeah, it's definitely a, uh, who's that phrase, a bone of contention, but I think it is to do that and I think it's a lot of degree, you know? It is a selfish thought, especially when you've got a young family to say, uh, "Do you mind if I just disappear for the day? You know, you can look after Noah, I'll just, I'm just gone." You know, I mean, that's, you know, say, um, and you know, Emma's got her interests as well, obviously, but not ones that take up that degree, you know? It's a bit like if you play tennis, you might say, well, "Can I just go and play tennis for a couple of hours?" You know, that's very different to saying, right, "I'm gonna go, I'm going to Columbia for 10 days." You know, yeah, or, "Actually, I want to go on a holiday, I want to go on holiday for two and a half weeks without you," which is like, yeah, "Is that okay?" You know, so it is, you know, it does, it does come into play, of course it does.
And as much as, um, I still do it, you know, that I am conscious of the fact that it's a bit one-sided in that respect, so let's
end on this last one, and you've kind of answered this, but I think it's still—I think it'd still be an interesting one to ask you: does free flight make sense for you? Other aspects of your life, better or worse? Oh,
That's, that's an interesting question. It really, really is. Um, does it make, um, I think, well, I would touch on anyone. I think in some respects, it's made it worse, you know? I think in terms of, uh, friendships and so on, I definitely push some friendships over the edge in terms of, and what's not happening? Or I probably would have had more, so, um, maybe more friendships outside of flying. You know, a lot of my friendships are in flying for obvious reasons, really.
So, but I think, I think overall, I just can't ever imagine it not having been part, you know, a major part of my, a lot of my life. You know, I just, it just, just is me really. I just, yeah, I can't think of anything better to do in paragliding really. I mean, I've done other sports as well, and that none of them, none of them have quite hooked me the way that paragliding has. You know, because again, to use that, it sounds a bit glib again, but it is Leonardo da Vinci's dream, isn't it? Literally, you know, if you imagine when he was like, you know, several hundred years ago, he kind of thought about these concepts, you know, like the idea that we can now do it in a way that's even more incredible than he even sort of imagined.
Really, yeah, it's insane. Yeah, I mean, like on these new gliders now, you know, you can literally get hold of the, the lower line set, you know, and sort of in one thing, it's, it's, it's, it's like nothing there is. There, it's like literally nothing, and that holds you up and hold all that g, you know, and all of your weight And that's pretty amazing technology, really, that can do that. And you can fly hundreds of kilometers like that, and then put it back in a bag and get on a train or get in a car. It
Is a magic carpet. It is a magic carpet.
yeah yeah kirstie
What a joy! I, I, uh, I've been, I've been smiling for an hour and a half and my face is getting exhausted so much. It's just been a nice chat. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's great to connect with you and, uh, next time we'll have to do this in person and roll the knee or someplace where we find ourselves in the world. But thanks for sharing your thoughts and time and, uh, good luck raising the little one. Uh, that's, that's quite a nice journey your
voice, and um, yeah, like you say, hopefully we can meet up in person again soon. Sounds
Great, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Wonderful, thank you. If
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