Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud-Based Man. My conversation today is with Burkhard Martens, Berkey, who wrote the very famous Bible that I'm sure most of you have. And if you don't or you haven't read it, you must go out and get it today. Check out the show notes. There's a link. It is terrific. It first came out in 2005, and the third edition was just published in collaboration with XC Mag. And they have upgraded it and updated it and new pictures and some new illustrations. But the principles are all exactly the same as they were back in 2005, and they have been for thousands of years. And it's all on how thermals work and how we can use them to go big and go far and have more success in what we do.
It's an incredibly densely packed book. It was one of those that when I first started flying in 2004 and kind of started getting into XC a year later or so, I just would read. And then read it again, and then read it again, and read it again. It's kind of complicated stuff when you're first starting to fly and then it becomes a little bit second nature. But it's a terrific book, and we had a lot of fun chatting. And I always am so impressed with folks who can do this, have these conversations in very much a second language. But Berkey was great. We had a blast. And we don't touch too much on the book. We talk more about just his career and his passion and he and his wife chasing it around. We've been around the world since 1989, and it was a lot of fun.
And I think you'll enjoy it. So without further delay, enjoy this talk with Burkhard Martens, the author of Thermal Flying and several others. Cheers. Berkey, it's great to have you on the show. I feel actually badly that I haven't had you on earlier. You were my, you were, you didn't know this, but you were my mentor back when I got into the sport in 2004, your book in 2006. Was a, was a Bible for me. I just read it. I would read it and then I would read it over and then I would read it over. And, you know, because when you're new to the sport, these concepts are quite difficult and, and, and they, you know, it's you, you have put it in a way that, that people with very little experience can really understand.
And now, you know, more than 16 years later and 4X Alps and all this stuff that I've done in the sport. I just got your new edition, the 2021 third edition and just a couple of days ago. So I haven't had a chance to go through the whole thing, but I'm reminded by just still how valuable and dense it is with so many wonderful concepts on how to go up. So congratulations. It's been quite a journey, I'm sure for you. Thank you for the nice words. I, I, I want to, you know, right in the open.
In the
opening of the book, you've got kind of a new forward from you. Yeah. You started in the late eighties. You were the, you were an OG. You were a gangster back in the days. You've been at this a long time. Can you give me a little bit of your pre writing the book? Ah,
this is a long story. I started flying
in 89 and very fast. I was an engineer. It was my job and I was flying for four years. And then, then I stopped my. Engineered job and only flying was dying was my life. First, I started, um, at UP. I was a selling manager
from UP and so I got to, uh, to a lot of schools and I know a lot of schools in Germany and all, all in Europe. And after some years, uh, at the school, it was, uh, no, not at the school at the UP and, and also area I had done the, the selling, uh, so I knew a lot. of schools and then I started my own school with a friend together and the whole time I, I was flying, uh, competitions and a lot of cross country, but when you are running a paragliding school, then you don't have time to, to fly a lot. If you have bad, bad weather, then you make a theory with the students and, and, you know, and then you have time in bad weather.
So, um, and, and this was all together 11 years. Four years of selling and seven years of school, uh, paragliding school. And then, um, and this time I was writing a lot of articles in, in magazines in the German DHB and, and, uh, former times it was a glide magazine. And once I was running, uh, it was, um, 16 articles over, over two years in the magazine. And then people came to me and, uh, asked me. Hey, take all your articles you have written and then you have a book, but when you are, when you are, uh, running a paragliding school, you don't have time to do this.
Yeah, it's a lot of work. So after seven years of running the school, I was selling my, my part of the schools and I, it took me, it took me one year. Um, and then this year I have done the layout, the concept for a paragliding book and the. The problem, the problem was, uh, with my concept, I was looking for a publisher and, and I could not find one and yeah, then was the next problem. I have spent nearly one year for the layout for, for, for, to do the book, but nobody want to publish this and then was, yeah, and, and I was, uh, I was thinking this should be the best book ever.
And, and, um, yeah, what to do and cancel the, the whole, um, the whole thing or do it all by my own. And then I tried, uh, to do it by my own this time, um, digital photography was coming on and then I, I was doing some, uh, different courses at advanced courses for me. If, uh, once one was to, uh, to make a writing course, how to write then, uh, Adobe Indies. How to, to make a, make a layout and, and yeah, and, and, and, um, the pictures, how, how to make the pictures and, uh, how to work with the pictures with Adobe Photoshop. And so I have done advanced courses in all these three things.
And then I take the next, uh, nearly, nearly a year to, to write, to lay out, to set the whole book in, in German language. Yeah. And this was, yeah. And then 2004, I have, uh, uh, brought out the first edition of, of the thermal flying in German language. So you, you self-published it. It was something you did totally on your own. Yes. Every, everything I have done by my own. Oh my gosh. I don't know if you know this, but I, I just did my own book, my, my first book through press country magazine, but I can't imagine. I mean, they did so much of the heavy lifting. I just had to write, you know, and they did all the stuff that you're talking about. I mean, if I had to do all that there, I'd be 10% through right now.
Yeah. And, and
when the book was ready,
uh, I, I was gone to a printer and they printed me
7,000 books. And then a big truck came and brought me 7,000 books to my home. This, um, it was eight, eight tons. Eight tons of, of books were, um, yeah. And yeah, this was very interesting
because I don't know how
to sell so
many books. I, I, I'm on my own and, um, but this, in my time I was selling, uh, to all the German schools, the, the paragliders from UP and area, I, I haven't known the most of the schools in German language. They are the. Austrian and German. And so I, they had a very good contact with a lot of them and the normal books they are selling over the, over the books in the, in the cities and, but my book was a very, very special for, for the small paragliding, uh, scene.
Yeah. It's very specific. Yeah. And so the most selling, uh, I have done was over the paragliding schools and because I know the most. Of the schools, the selling started very, very fast, very, very, uh, high, high quality, uh, quantities. Okay. So, yeah. And then a very fun, a funny thing was I want to sell the book to, through the DHV, the German hang gliding, uh, association. And they said, uh, if the book, uh, in the second edition, we will sell it because there are some
mistakes inside
and we want to sell a perfect book. And I said, oh shit, the DHV is, uh, most important reseller for me. I was thinking, and they said, no, we don't sell your book. Yeah. And, uh, then, yeah, but, but the enthusiasm in the paragliding scene was so, so great. It's so in norm that I sold the 7,000 books in two years. Geez. That's amazing. Wow. Yeah. This is incredible. Much the second edition, the DHV was also selling my book. There you go. So were you, were you just, did you have a little, uh, a little, uh, car and you're just loading it up and delivering it on all the, to all these schools and driving around Germany?
Was that how you did it? In the first time? Um. I have a, uh, camper van and I, I'm fly and I, I said, I stopped with the school and so I have the time to write the book and then sell the book. And I was flying a very, very much in that time and, uh, traveling a lot with my camper van. And every time when I started, I put a lot of books in my camper
van. Yeah. I was visiting the schools, uh, show. Them the book and, and they, um, they, every, every school took, took 10 books in one
row. And it's been, I didn't realize this until I got this, this edition, but it's been translated into a bunch of different languages. You know, mine's only in English now, and that that's the plan in a year they'll do German and another year they'll do French. You know, it'll take a while, but have all those different translations also been very successful? Cause that's a lot of effort, effort to, to make, uh, uh, a whole. The whole, to translate a whole book. Yeah. Um, because of the big success in the first years, uh, I, I want, uh, I asked the cross country magazine if they want to translate my book into English language. Uh, the risk was too great for them. They said, and
I said, Hey, it's the best book ever. And, and the selling in Germany is absolutely high and they, they don't want to do that and to take the risk. So I said. Oh, then I have to translate it, uh, Mads Syndergaard I know, know from competition flying, he said, yes, he can do that. So he translated, and I have also done the layout, the concept,
the InDesign and only the whole text Matt's translated. And I have done the first English version also on my own. Ooh, Berkart, tell me what the, you know, the main differences between the previous edition and. And this edition is. No, they're not so many things new there. I, I will read you some things I have to, uh, saw, I, I saw then new force, but better readable. Then there are some corrections in pronunciation. Some small pictures are now bigger and better understandable, but, but this, uh, only little things they lay out at some places is clearer and better to understand, or there's some, some.
Some new diagrams, but not, not a lot and, and, and nice, um, Ed Ewing has written two
pages about, about, uh, word weather forecast or it's completely new. Yeah, these are all, these are all great things. I'm going to take it with me tomorrow when I
go to Turkey, I don't usually bring books, but I look forward to, I look forward to re-exploring and reacquainting myself with your book when, when I'm in Turkey at the world cup, I think it'll, it'll be great. Yeah. How is your livelihood now? Is it just through the book? Or is it through a combination? It was a combination. Um, I don't, was running a school, but I have done a lot of courses and, um, cross country courses, thermal flying courses. Uh, I've done some holiday trips with, uh, paragliders, cross country and thermal flying courses and selling the books, uh, and because of the selling was so great, there was also, uh, uh, the possibility,
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Not necessarily even thermaling, just in terms of, okay, you're very excited, you're coming here to learn how to fly. Here are the three most important things you
need to know
about this
sport. About your
future, your undertaking. The most important thing is that they should fly safely, that they should not have accidents, and the most important thing, the weather is stronger than you. The weather is the most important thing in flying. Strong thermals is bad. The lee side is very
bad. To explain that, and not only to
explain. They should learn and they should do it, and these are two different things. They should not only know that, they should do that, what I say. Right. Right.
Follow the instructions. Don't go out on a limb too much in the beginning. Interesting. I used to say something that was very wrong in this podcast often, and I don't know where I even picked that up, but I used to say, you know, once you get... Once you get a sufficient amount of hours, and you're flying a lot of comps, and you're very current, you have a lot of currency with your flying, and maybe this is just how I felt in my own flying, but the thermaling becomes kind of second nature, and the gliding is
what I have always found maybe a little bit more tricky, certainly trickier to explain. You know, how Chrigel glides is a very... It's an intrinsic
thing that he
feels, you know, that's very difficult to pass off. But the really good pilots that are consistently at the top of, you know, the World Cup and that kind of thing, they all say, no, no, it's actually, you know, thermaling is still the most important thing and the hardest thing, because it's just to get
really good at
it, you know, to go from that 96% efficiency to a hundred.
It's really, really, really hard, you know, at that level, at the really high levels. Most all the pilots technically are pretty close to one another, but that one, 2% makes a big difference. Yeah. And I'd love to just get your thoughts on that, that it's that, I mean, you have really focused in your book on climbing, and which is obviously the most important, but my own career path, I guess, whatever, my own journey through paragliding, I'm really back to the climbing. I...
Yeah. And your, your book is refreshing in that regard. There's, there's a lot there to try to master. Yeah. Yeah. It's not only the climbing, it's also the gliding. You are completely right about, yeah, a good thing is to, to fly a lot, to fly competitions and then you learn very fast. Hmm. Yes. Because when others climb better than you, you know, you've got more to work on. Yes. Yes. And then you can, then you see it at once. Berkey, I'm looking at, you know, your book right now, and I just thought there's so many different things. It's just in a podcast, we obviously can't go through it, but I'd love to just know after all these years, more than 15 years now, what, what chapters do you yourself return to what, what are the, what are the concepts that you find for your, for your own flying and flying with your friends are the ones that are kind of more critical, more, um, they, they play a bigger role in, in what we do.
For the beginners, I, I think is, uh, uh, it's a sermon, how the term is rising, what the sermon is doing. It's the circling, uh, there are so many different things in these rising, uh, thermals. And also where the point, the trigger points where the term starts,
this is for the beginners, but the, the others is this gliding, uh, and to be safe. It's a weather part and all, yeah, everything is important if you get a complete pilot. Yeah. That you, you kind of touched on the, the, the mental
aspect, you know, as you get, as you get more hours, you get more respect for the sport. You
understand more of the risks, you know, in the beginning, you don't really have much of an idea. You, people tell you it's
risky, but you don't understand. Yeah. The, the real mental path, uh, I have not so many words for this. For me, the mental, if you want to fly a lot, then you are in a good mind to, uh, to, uh, to get it, uh, or to be a good pilot. Hmm. That's a good, let's go with that. What, what does to you, what is the definition of a good pilot? Depends on, on, on the thing to God, a good friend of mine is that, uh, he had never an accident.
He's flying 30 years and that has never an accident. This is a good pilot. He's also a good cross country pilot, but not, not on the word level. The word level, they are also very good pilots, but a lot of them had also accidents. Hmm. Some, some, yeah. He was, I had him on the show and, uh, still one of the things that he said, uh, it kind of offhand is, has really helped change my outlook. He was talking about his flatland flying and he said, you know, most of the time, you know, most of the time he's the first off
the hill. And so he'll go to a plate, you know, on, on a good day. And he, he, in other words, he's taking the most risk of anybody in terms of just, okay, trying to get the most out of that day, you know, so he'll, he'll fly first. And he said, you know, and sometimes I get it wrong and I land 10 minutes later and I said, oh, that must've been, that must be
so discouraging, you know, on a really good day that you, you, uh, you, you went too early and, and you bomb out and he said, oh, Gavin, no, that that's not discouraging at all. I, I had a, I had a, I had a safe flight, I landed safely and now I get to go do something else wonderful with the day you could,
but he, you could tell it was intrinsic to him. He, he really didn't care that he'd bombed out. It was just totally fine. Yeah. Yeah.
In the first years I was motivated and I would, today I would say I was over motivated. The thinking is I, I'm stronger than the nature. I want to go there. I want to go there and this full power and I go there. And so that was the reason of my accident where I could the half a year not fly. Yeah. When you are getting older, you're getting more, uh, not so
motivated to, to get a big risk. If the air is too, too turbulent, uh, I, I go for landing and said, oh, other pilots are flying and, but now I go land and said, well, they should fly. They should fly. It's not my weather. So my mood. So this is motivation, motivation. I cannot win again the, the cross country, I think for this, uh, or competitions for this or the X-Ives there, you have to be more motivated than me now. Yeah. It was interesting. I just did a, uh, it's not up yet, but I just did a recording with, with Torsten Siegel, um, right after the Superfinal. Yeah. Back in, in Canada.
And, and I, I understand that I watched the whole thing on online and, and, but I understand it was, no one got hurt. They didn't have any accidents, but it was pretty dicey sound, you know, a lot of wing tip right on the rock and
quite a bit of wind and, and, you know, it was a Superfinal in the mountains, which was a first for that. And so, you know, I didn't have since talked to a couple others who came back from it, who were very much, you know, they were struggling with their decision-making. And that, you know, they did it and, but they don't know if they should have done it. It was, it was kind of too much, you know, it's the kind of flying where it doesn't matter how much skill you have. If something goes wrong, you're in real trouble, you know, when you're that close to the terrain and, uh, taking that kind of risk, which, you know, is, is something I think we all at certain different points of our flying, you have to come to terms with how much are you willing to take?
Yeah. The, the question is how many risks you will take. Yeah. Yeah. You, you mentioned age. Do you think that's a product of age or do you think that's a product of, and maybe it's a combination of just your years in the sport? I, I, I'm flying since 89, but I started with this at 28 or 27. So it's not the age,
uh, it's, it's more the, the air time. It's more the years you are flying. Uh, for, for me, for me, it's that. Okay. So, so you're the, the, the more you flown, the less it's just, okay. I don't need to push it as hard because I've done that. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. I, I have, for me, I have reached everything in the sports, uh, I can do. And I'm very happy with the things, what I have done. And now I'm happy with nice flying, doing little cross country. Do an evening flight, make a walk and a walk and fly. And these are nice things that I don't want anymore to fly 10 hours and more.
Was it, was it hard to leave the competition scene and, and, and back off? Is it, I mean, is it, in other words, is it harder to pursue the sport when there aren't the big goals? No, it was no, it was not hard for me. Um, it's the time was finished for the competition. The competitions for me, it was, it was fine. And, uh, competitions were not my
very favorite. It was better than cross country flying for, for me to
make my own flight, not in the hurry with all, all the others together. The main thing I loved was a cross country flying
for my own. Huh? What's the, what's the best place you've ever flown if you could walk out the door today? And, and repeat a flight? Where would it be? Oh, this is hard to say. Um, 15 years ago, uh, it
was very
clear what I was saying. It's the Dolomites,
the panorama flying in the Dolomites was the best. Then I was, um, I fell in love with this fish, uh, Switzerland,
uh, so many big triangles I have flown there in the last year. Yes. Uh, South Tyrol, the, the area, Spikeboden, the whole South Tyrol. Anthols. Yeah. And that's, yeah. Yeah. Anthols, Spikeboden was my favorite for a long time. I think the last time, and I don't know if you know this, but I, I'm pretty sure we met at Spikeboden a bunch of years ago and it was, I was there with my friend, Bruce
Marks, who unfortunately is no longer with us, but he was, he supported me in the first couple X-Alps and I'm pretty sure.
Yeah. I met Bruce in Fiche. Did you? Yeah. He used to fly Fiche a lot.
Yeah. He used to fly Fiche a ton. Some, some
years ago. Yeah. Yeah. He loved Fiche. He loved trying that. Yeah. That triangle over and over and over again. Yeah. Um, yeah. And the Dolomites are awful special. That's a, that's a, that's an amazing part of the world. Yeah. Okay. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give some questions to you that came from our audience in a survey. Uh, this last fall that are, uh, answer them as long or short as you want, uh, best and worst wing you've ever flown. The worst,
the worst wing. Yeah. The best and the worst. If you can remember it from, you know, 89, you've flown just about all of them. Uh, the, the best wing, uh, I
won 2004, uh, for me the first time, the, um, the German cross country, uh, competition. And this was with a gin. Gin glider. And uh, I, I love this so much, but, uh, today the performance is not very good. If you compare with 2004, but this was my lovely wing and, and in the moment or some years ago, it was, is, is the Chile three from Skywalk was climbing. So perfect. Uh, yeah. Since
I think six years, I'm not
trying competition wings anymore. I'm flying, uh, in B or E and C and
you know, not competitions more for me. So this Chile three was the best climbing machine ever. I've heard that's a good one. And what about the, what about the, what about the worst? Oh, I could not say the worst.
Uh, no, no, to the time I was flying the glider, I, after some flights, I loved all of them.
Ah, excellent. Good answer. Good answer. So I'm, I, you know, I'm sponsored from Skywalk the last 10 years and I'm not looking so much about other, other companies. Uh, I look what, what the Skywalk, I take the B or the Z or the C glider or what I like to have. And after some flights, I, I'm very happy with the glider. Hmm. Bricky. Thinking, thinking back to when you were. Yeah. The competition years or just into, you know, the 10 hour flights when you were really going big. Yeah. One of the questions that, that someone wanted me to
ask you is what was your, what was your process from the beginning to the end in the preparation for the flight? In other words, you know, getting ready for it. Did it start the day before the week before, what was the, what were the, what were the steps that you would take to prepare either your mind, your body or whatever, for a big flight from spike? You know, you're going to do, go to the Antholts FAI. Yeah. When, um, when you first plan, plan the big flights, uh, I have done this in the winter time. What, what is possible, what is a good strategy, what, what are the good lines? And then, yeah, then waiting for the good weather. And when you see the good weather is coming, um, I'm every time when I have, we do a big flight.
I'm the day before it's a mountain. I don't run. I don't run in the morning, uh, drive in the night and then go to
the mountain. I'm every time on
the day before on the mountain to have, to, to, to relax, to, to go in my head through, through the flight or what I will do. Yeah. So I prepared mental the day before the next day. I hope the weather will be so good as is, uh, I hope that's good advice. Yeah. But the planning is, is, uh, long be long before. Yeah. Okay. What can you think, when you think back on your career tip, what was something you learned from another pilot or your wife or at a competition? What was the, what was the one thing that you learned that made the biggest
difference in your success, in your ability to stay in the sky and your ability to go farther? What was, what was the thing that made the most impact on your flying? Um, no, normally, um, I'm also in the hurry when I'm flying and, and sometimes you have to stay at the, at the place and wait for the good high to cross a big valley. Sometimes I'm not at the cloud base and the valley crossing is very long and in the first years I started the crossing. And also
I have done this when it was not. Uh, perfect high to do that. So stay calm and wait for the next thermal, what brings you to 300 meters more high and then go. And this is not my, my favorite thing. Normally I don't wait and I cross and that I learned from Torsten Hane. Uh, he said, Oh, don't be in this hurry. Don't wait, wait for the right time. That's yeah. That's great advice. What should you? You talked about this a little bit already, but the, what should beginners avoid is they, you know, the less than 200 hour pilots, what, what should they, what, what's, what's a good arc for them early on.
They should think that they should not fly in, in bed, whether conditions with the, um, not in the strong Lee sites, if they have a lot of experience,
um, every pilot or pilots are flying in,
in Lee sites. And if it is not too strong, but if the wind, for
me, I said in the mountain is the wind is stronger on the rich level than more than 20 K never, never go on the Lee side. If it is only 10 K and there are good thermals, okay, then you can go. But, but I don't know where is the border do it and do it not be careful and don't fall down. That's a good one. We had to, we have to break that rule a lot. Yeah. Especially the X helps, especially this
year. We were flying in so much wind. It was just absurd. It was crazy. Yes. I know that. And that's the reason I will never join you at the exact, they were all pilots are crazy. Yeah, that's true. If you're not crazy, you don't have to start there. That's true. Exactly. Then you have no shots. Solid, solid. Um, okay. This is a good one. What was or still is the hardest or most demanding thing that you needed to learn or still need to learn? You, you just talked about, you know, you were impetuous for many years and would leave too low. You wouldn't wait for the proper height to do a, uh, a crossing, but is there been anything else that's been a real, you know, for example, mine is I reversed turn way too much.
And I always have, I always, you know, I'm going right now, I think I'm like, I can get it better to the left. I'm trying
really hard to stop that, but, uh, you know, is there anything like that, that you, um, have found difficult to course correct in your own flying? Oh, I think this is a mental, mental thing to be in the head clear. I want to fly big
distance and, uh, I will do that and I'm motivated. And then this is the most important thing to be successful, to fly far. And yeah, this is the most important thing. Be clear in the head and you, the mental thing, you will do that. Hmm. Hmm. Burkhardt. It's been a real joy. It's, it's, uh, it's, it's great to connect with you. Like I said, you are a hero for me. Your book has had a massive impact on, on my own flying. It's a joy to see that there's this new third edition, uh, out 16 years after or something like that. Uh, after the first. And so congratulations. I hope sales continue to go, uh, great and all the best to
you and your wife as you travel around and explore the sky. Yeah. Thank you very much. I'm very happy, uh, to speak with you. Uh, I saw you
and then on the X-Alps and it was very fun to see all the good pilots to do that big thing. Yeah. Like you said, we are all crazy, but yeah. Uh, I was a lot, lot time on the computer to watch you all. It's a, it's a good time waster for everybody for us too, for
a couple of weeks every year. Yeah. Thank you, Burkhardt. Appreciate it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Kevin. If you find the Cloud-Based Mayhem valuable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. You can give us a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or however you get your podcast that goes a long ways and helps spread the word. You can blog about it on your own website or share it on social media. You can talk about it on the way up to launch with your pilot friends. I know a lot of interest. A
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