Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Cloud-Based Man. My conversation today is with Burkhard Martens, Berkey, who wrote the very famous Bible that I'm sure most of you have. And if you don't or you haven't read it, you must go out and get it today. Check out the show notes. There's a link. It is terrific. It first came out in 2005, and the third edition was just published in collaboration with XC Mag. And they have upgraded it and updated it and new pictures and some new illustrations. But the principles are all exactly the same as they were back in 2005, and they have been for thousands of years. And it's all on how thermals work and how we can use them to go big and go far and have more success in what we do.
It's an incredibly densely packed book. It was one of those that when I first started flying in 2004 and kind of started getting into XC a year later or so, I just would read and then read it again and then read it again and read it again. It's kind of complicated stuff when you're first starting to fly and then it becomes a little bit second nature. But it's a terrific book, and we had a lot of fun chatting, and I always am so impressed with folks who can do this, have these conversations in very much a second language. But Berkey was great. We had a blast, and we don't touch too much on the book. We talk more about just his career. And... His passion, and he and his wife chasing it around the world since 1989. And it was a lot of fun, and I think you'll enjoy it.
So without further delay, enjoy this talk with Burkhard Martens, the author of Thermal Flying and several others. Cheers.
Berkey, it's great to have you on the show. I feel actually badly that I haven't had you on earlier. You were my... You were... You didn't know this, but you were my mentor back when I got into the sport in 2004. Your book in 2006 was a Bible for me. I just read it. I would read it, and then I would read it over, and then I would read it over. And, you know, because when you're new to the sport, these concepts are quite difficult. And they, you know, it's... You have put it in a way that people with very little experience can really understand. And now, you know, more than 16 years later... Yeah. And 4X Alps and all the stuff that I've done in the sport, I just got your new edition, the 2021 third edition.
Yeah. And just a couple of days ago. So I haven't had a chance to go through the whole thing, but I'm reminded by just still how valuable and dense it is with so many wonderful concepts on how to go up. So congratulations. It's been quite a journey, I'm sure, for you.
Yeah. Thank you. This is a nice words.
I want to, you know, right in the opening of the book, you've got kind of a new forward from you. You started in the late 80s. You were an OG. You were a gangster back in the days. You've been at this a long time. Can you give me a little bit of your pre-writing the book?
This is a long story. I started flying in 89. And very fast. So 4X Alps. I was an engineer, it was my job and I was flying for four years and then I stopped my engineer job and only flying was my life. First, I started at UP, I was a selling manager from UP and so I got to a lot of schools and I know a lot of schools in Germany and all in Europe. And after some years at the school, it was, no, not at the school, at the UP and also area I have done the selling, so I knew a lot of schools and then I started my own school with a friend together.
And the whole time I was flying competitions and a lot of cross country, but when you are running a paragliding school, then you don't have time to fly a lot. Sure. If you have bad weather, then you make a theory with the students and then you have time in bad weather. So this was altogether 11 years, four years of selling and seven years of school, paragliding school. And then this time I was writing a lot of articles in magazines, in the German DHB and then former times it was a GlideShare magazine. And. Once I was running, it was 16 articles over two years in the magazine and then people came to me and asked me, Hey, take all your articles you have written and then you have a book.
But when you are running a paragliding school, you don't have time to do this. Yeah, sure. It's a lot of work. So after seven years of running the school. I was selling my, my part of the schools and I, it took me, it took me one year. And in this year I have done the layout, the concept for a paragliding book. And the problem, the problem was with my concept, I was looking for a publisher and, and I could not find one. And yeah, then was the next problem. I have spent nearly one year for the layout. For what? You know, for, for, to do the book, but nobody want to publish this.
And then what is, yeah, yeah. And I was, I was thinking this should be the best book ever and, and, um, yeah, what to do and cancel the, the whole, um, the whole thing or do it all by my own. And then I tried to do it by my own this time. Um.
And then I, I was doing some, uh, different courses at, at once courses for me, uh, once one was to, uh, to make a writing course, how to write then, uh, Adobe InDesign, how to, to, to make a, make a layout and, and, yeah, and, and, and, um, the pictures, how, how to make the pictures and, uh, how to work with the pictures. And so I have done advanced courses in all these three things. And then I take the next, uh, nearly, nearly a year to, to write, to lay out, to set the whole book in, in German language.
Yeah. And this was, yeah. And then 2004, I have, uh, brought out the first edition of, of the thermal flying in German language. Okay. So you
self-published it. It was something you did
totally on your own. Yes. Every, everything I have done by my own. Oh
my gosh. I don't know if you know this, but I, I just did my own book, my, my first book through cross country magazine, but I can't imagine, I mean, they did so much of the heavy lifting. I just had to write, you know, and they did all the stuff that you're talking about. I mean, if I had to do all that there, I'd be 10 % through right now.
Yeah. And, and when the book was ready, uh, I, I was gone to a printer and they printed me 7,000 books and then a big truck came and brought me 7,000 books to my home. This, um, it was eight, eight tons, eight tons of, of books were, um, yeah.
And yeah, this was great. Um, very interesting because I don't know how to say so many books, uh, I, I'm on my own and, um, but in my time I was selling, uh, to all the German schools, the, the paragliders from UP and area, I, I haven't known the most of the schools in German language, the Austrian and German. And so I, they had a very good contact with a lot of them. Yeah. Yeah. And nobody sells the normal books they are selling the books in the cities on air. And, but my book was a very special for the small paragliding, uh, yeah.
And so, the most selling I have done was over the paragliding schools. And because I know the most of the schools, so selling started very, very fast. Very, very surprised. High, high quality quantities, okay? So yeah, and then a very funny, funny thing was, I want to sell the book to through the DHV, the German Hang Gliding Association, and they said, "Uh, if the book in the second edition, we will sell it because there are some mistakes inside and we want to sell a perfect book." And I said, "Oh shit, the DHV is a most important reseller for me," I was thinking, and they said, "No, we don't sell your book."
Yeah, and uh, then yeah, but but the enthusiasm in the paragliding scene was so, so great, so that I sold the 7,000 books in two years. Geez, that's amazing. Wow, wow, yeah, this is incredible. Much, and the second edition, the DHV was also selling my book.
There you go. So, were you just—did you have a little, a little, uh, car and you're just loading it up and delivering it all to all these schools and driving around Germany? Was that how you did it in the
First time I have a camper van and I, I'm flat and I, I said I stopped with the dhv, and I said I stopped with the school, and so I have the time to write the book and then sell the book. And I was flying a very, very much in that time and traveling a lot with my camper van. And every time when I started, I put a lot of books in my camper van. Yeah, I was visiting the schools, uh, show them the book, and and they, they every, every school took took 10 books, and I was flying a lot with my camper van in one row and
It's been—I didn't realize this until I got this, this edition, but it's been translated into a bunch of different languages, you know? Mine's only in English now, and that—that's the plan. In a year, they'll do German, and another year they'll do French, you know? It'll take a while, but have all those different translations also been very successful? Because that's a lot of effort, effort to to make a a whole to translate a whole book.
Yeah, um, because of the big success in the first years, uh, I, I want, uh, I asked the Cross Country Magazine if they want to translate my book into English language. Uh, the risk was too great for them, they said. And I said, "Hey, it's the best book ever, and and the selling in Germany is absolutely high." And they, they don't want to do that and to take the risk. So I said, "Oh, then I have to translate it." Uh, Mads Syndergaard, yeah, I know, no from competition flying, he said, "Yes, he can do that." So he translated, and I have also done the layout, the concepts in design, and only the whole text Mats translated, and I have done the first English version also on my own.
Berkar, tell me what the, you know, the main differences between the previous edition and this edition is?
There are not so many things new there. I, I will read you some things I have to, uh, saw. I, I saw the new force, but better readable then. There are some corrections in pronunciation.
Some small pictures are now bigger and better understandable, but but these are only little things. They lay out at some places is clearer and better to understand, or some new diagrams, but not not a lot. And and nice, um, Ed Ewing has written two pages about about, uh, world weather forecast. It's completely new, yeah.
These are all, these are all great things. I'm gonna take it with me tomorrow when I go to Turkey. I don't usually bring books, but I look forward to, I look forward to re-exploring and reacquainting myself with your book when, when I'm in Turkey at the World Cup. I think it'll, it'll be great. Yeah, how is your livelihood now? Is it just through the book, or is it through a combination?
It was a combination. I don't... was running a school, but I have done a lot of courses and cross-country courses, thermal flying courses. I've done some holiday trips with paragliders, cross-country and thermal flying courses, and selling the books. And because the selling was so great, there was also a a possibility, possibility to earn the money with this, yes, Berkey.
In your, in your arc of your flying that started in the late 80s, and your time at UP, and then the writing of the book, and all the additions and translations, you also—you also really chased, or still do, I don't know, but chased, you know, big distance and records and competitions and X contest, yeah? As you have, you been able to remain passionate and very keen on the sport throughout, or have there been kind of ups and downs, yeah?
I have ups and downs. Uh, I was very enthusiastic and motivated to fly cross country and and or also long, long time competitions and or I got four, four times German champion in in cross country flying. Uh, downs, uh, I I had an accident, could a half year not fly, but when I could fly again, I was a full-time, full-time pilot. Okay, okay, so not
that many downs majority no
No, yes, and I was motivated and also traveling. Uh, I love traveling and seeing new new flying sites, and yeah, fly flying is my world and
yeah flying is my word and and will follow that it has been really helpful um as said dave and michael dade And your wife is a pilot, correct?
Yes, she's also a very good pilot. She was a Bavarian champion in paragliding. Wow.
So did you both meet through paragliding?
Yes, we met. The first meet was not with paragliding. She was looking for a new place to live in my hometown. And she asked me to put a paper on the window of my school.
Fate.
Sounds like fate.
Yeah, but I met her in the mid-90s, but she is also flying since 1989. Wow,
really? Holy cow. And do you have kids? No,
we don't.
We don't
have kids.
If you had kids, would you get them into flying?
Yes. Yes, I think.
Seems like it, with mom and dad flying. Is that ever difficult on a relationship with both of you being pilots, just in terms of the risk and time it takes, or is it kind of work together and works okay?
Oh, it's more work together, have the same hobby, do the same things. Beautiful. We are also, since some years, very big fans of mountain biking, but also bozo. So, in the moment, we are traveling, flying, and biking.
Wow. And are you both still chasing distance quite a bit? Do you do any competition still, or is that more?
No, I stopped competition some years ago. The last years, we also have. I have done two books, written two books in the mountain bike scene.
Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. And you work collaboratively on the books together, you and your wife?
On that books, we are working together. And the new editions for thermal flying or the German version, I'm doing by my own.
Okay. Okay. Let's dive into your book. I can't imagine there's too many pilots out there that don't. Okay. I have a copy of your book. You said something interesting in the last couple of weeks when we were putting this together, which I think is a really good thing. You said, actually, there's not a lot of new information in the new edition, which really means that you covered a lot of ground in the one back in 2005. And as you say in the book, wing design has changed radically since those days. Yeah. But the concepts are still the same that we would have done in the 1800s had we had these wings.
Thermals still work as they're supposed to work.
Yeah. The flying with the new wings is a little bit different. Sure. But the principle of the thermals, the principle is the same since thousands of years, I think. The sun is heating the ground. The ground is... Heating the air and the air is rising up. Yeah. And all things what has to do with this is the same.
How did writing the book improve your own flying? Because, I mean, there is a ton of information there. And I know that most pilots, once they have a few hundred hours, unless they're a meteorologist, we all have kind of understanding. Of things like lapse rate and all the little things that we learn in flying. But they're very detailed in the book. And I can't imagine you... Did you have all of that knowledge and just put it on paper? Or I would imagine there was quite a bit of your own research and especially doing with the drawings and the illustrations.
You've taken our invisible world, which we can't... We cannot see and put it in a book. That's a really hard... That's a big bridge to cross.
Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm flying so much, I have a lot of experience by my own. Especially very interested in experience I have written down. But first, I was studying all books I can get from the sailplanes, from the deltas and from the hang gliders. From the paragliders, there was not so many. Yeah. Yeah. I was studying all books I can get in my hands. I think the secret of the book, because it's so successful, is the way I am learning. I was writing the book in that way. I have a picture or a diagram, a sketch and small words to explain what is seen in the diagram, sketches or the pictures.
Yes. Yes. And I use easy words to explain complicated things. Mm. Mm. Yes.
Okay. Gotcha. Yeah.
And because of the experience you said, all experience I'm doing in the air, I said, oh, what's that? How can I bring this information on a picture when I cannot do a picture? Then I make a diagram to explain. Did you
do all the illustrations and diagrams too? You did all that as well?
Yes. Geez. Yeah. Yeah. Some diagrams should be new done in the next edition. But yeah, but I have done everything by my own.
Holy cow. That's a proper labor of love. I can't imagine. There's so much there. Yeah. Yeah. When you're thinking back to your life, how do you see yourself in the future? Your school days, when you have a school, what are the concepts with new pilots that you think are most important? Not necessarily even thermaling, just in terms of, okay, you're very excited, you're coming here to learn how to fly. Here are the three most important things you need to know about this sport, about your future, your undertaking.
The most important thing is that they should fly safely. That they should not have accidents. And the most important thing, the weather is stronger than you.
The weather is the most important thing in flying. Strong thermals is bad. The lee side is very bad. And to explain that, and not only to explain, they should learn and they should do it. And these are two different things. They should not only know that, they should do that. What I say.
Right. Right. Follow the instructions. Don't get too, don't go out on a limb too much in the beginning. Interesting. Yeah. I used to say something that was very wrong in this podcast often. And I don't know where I even picked that up, but I used to say, once you get a sufficient amount of hours and you're flying a lot of comps. Yeah. And you're very current, you have a lot of currency with your flying. And maybe this is just how I felt in my own flying, but the thermaling becomes kind of second nature. And the gliding is what I have always found maybe a little bit more tricky, certainly trickier to explain, you know, how Chrigel glides is a very, it's an intrinsic thing that he feels, you know.
Yeah. That he, that's very difficult to pass off, but the really good pilots that are consistently at the top of, you know, the world cup and that kind of thing, they all say, no, no, it's actually, you know, thermaling is still the most important thing and the hardest thing, because it's just to get really good at it, you know, to go from that 96 % efficiency to a hundred is, is really, really, really hard. Yeah. Yeah. level, at the really high levels, most, most, all the pilots technically are pretty close to one another, but that one, 2 % makes a big difference. And I'd love to just get your thoughts on that, that it's that, um, I mean, you, you have really focused in your book on climbing and which is obviously the most important, but my, my own career path, whatever my own journey through paragliding, I'm really back to the climbing.
I, I, I, and your, your book is refreshing in that regard. There's, there's a lot there to try to master.
Yeah. Yeah. It's not only the climbing, it's also the gliding. You are completely right. But, um, yeah, you, a good thing is to, to fly a lot, to fly competitions and then you learn very fast.
Yes. Because when others climb better than you, you know, you've got more to work on.
Yes. Yes. And then you can, then you see it at once.
Yeah. Berkey, I'm, I'm looking at, you know, your book right now and I just thought there's so many different things. It's just in a podcast, we obviously can't go through it, but I'd love to just know after all these years, more than 15 years now, what, what chapters do you yourself return to? What, what are the, what are the concepts that you find for your, for your own flying and flying with your friends are the ones that are kind of more critical, more, um, they, they play a bigger role in, in what we do. For
the beginners, I think is, uh, it's a sermon, how the term is rising, what the sermon is doing. It's the circling. Uh, there are so many different things in these rising, uh, thermals and also where the point, the trigger points where the term starts, this is for the beginners, but the, the other is, this gliding, uh, and to be safe, it's the weather parts and all, yeah, everything is important. If you get a complete pilot.
Yeah. You kind of touched on the, the, the mental aspect, you know, as you get, as you get more hours, you get more respect for the sport. You understand more risks, you know, in the beginning, you don't really have much of an idea. People tell you it's risky, but you don't understand.
Yeah. The, the real, the mental path, uh, I have not so many words for this, uh, the, the, for me, the mental, if you want to fly a lot, then you are in a good mind to, uh, to, uh, to get the, or the, to be a good pilot.
Hmm.
That's a good, let's go with that. What, what does to you, what is the definition of a good pilot?
Depends on, on, on the thing. Till Gottbrad, a good friend of mine is that, uh, He had never an accident. He's flying 30 years and has never an accident. This is a good pilot. He's also a good cross country pilot, but not on the world level. The world level, they are also very good pilots, but a lot of them had also accidents.
I had him on the show, and still one of the things that he said, kind of offhand, has really helped change my outlook. He was talking about his flatland flying. He said, most of the time, he's the first off the hill. He'll go to a place on a good day. In other words, he's taking the most risk of anybody in terms of just trying to get the most out of that day. He'll fly first. He said, sometimes I get it wrong, and I land 10 minutes later. I said, oh, that must have been – that must be so discouraging on a really good day that you went too early, and you bomb out. He said, oh, Gavin, no, that's not discouraging at all. I had a safe flight.
I landed safely, and now I get to go do something else wonderful with the day. You could tell it was intrinsic to him. He really didn't care that he bombed out. It was just totally fine.
Yeah. In the first years, I was – Yeah. I was motivated, and today I would say I was over-motivated. The thinking is I'm stronger than the nature. I want to go there with full power, and I go there. So that was the reason of my accident where I could not fly for half a year. When you are getting older, you're getting more –
not so motivated to get a big risk. If the air is too turbulent, I go for landing and said, oh, other pilots are flying, but now I go land and said, well, they should fly. It's not my weather.
So with this motivation, I cannot win again the cross country, I think. For this – or competitions. For this – or the X-Alps. There, you have to be more motivated than me now.
Yeah, it was interesting. I just did – it's not up yet, but I just did a recording with Torsten Siegel right after the Superfinal. He's back in Canada, and I understand. I watched the whole thing online, but I understand it was – no one got hurt. They didn't have any accidents, but it was pretty dicey. It sounded – a lot of wingtip right on the rock and quite a bit of wind, and it was a Superfinal in the mountains, which was a first for that. So I didn't have – since talked to a couple others who came back from it who were very much – they were struggling with their decision-making in that they did it, but they don't know if they should have done it.
It was kind of too much. It's the kind of flying where it doesn't matter how much skill you have. If something goes wrong, you're in real trouble when you're that close to the terrain and taking that kind of risk, which is something I think we all at certain different points of our flying, you have to come to terms with. How much are you willing to take?
Yeah. The question is how many risks you would take. Yeah. Yeah.
You mentioned age. Do you think that's a product of age or do you think that's a product of – maybe it's a combination of just your years in the sport,
I'm flying since 89, but I started with 28 or 27. So it's not the age, it's more the airtime. It's more the years you are flying. For me, it's that.
Okay. So the more you've flown, the less – it's just, okay, I don't need to push it as hard because – Because I've done that. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah. Yeah. For me, I have reached everything in the sports I can do and I'm very happy with the things what I have done. And now I'm happy with nice flying, doing little cross country, do an evening flight, make a walk and fly. And these are nice things I don't want anymore to fly 10 hours and more.
Was it hard to leave the competition scene and back off? I mean, in other words, is it harder to pursue the sport when there aren't the big goals?
No, it was not hard for me. The time was finished for the competitions for me. It was fine. And the competitions were not my very favorite. It was better the cross country flying. For me, to make my own flight, not in the hurry with all the others together. Yeah. The main thing I loved was the cross country flying for my own.
Huh. What's the best place you've ever flown? If you could walk out the door today and repeat a flight, where would it be?
Oh, this is hard to say.
15 years ago, it was very clear. I was saying it's the Dolomites. The panorama flying in the Dolomites was the best. Then I felt in love with Switzerland. So many big triangles I have flown there. In the last years, I loved more South Tyrol. The area, the spike boat, the whole South Tyrol. The Dolomites.
Yeah. Yeah.
And the spike boat was my favorite for a long time. I think the last
time, I don't know if you know this, but I'm pretty sure we met at Spike Boat a bunch of years ago and I was there with my friend, Bruce Marks, who unfortunately is no longer with us, but he supported me in the first couple ex-Alps and I'm pretty
sure I met Bruce in Fiesch. Did you? Yeah. He used to fly Fiesch a lot. Yeah.
I met him
some years ago. Yeah. He
loved Fiesch. He loved trying that triangle over and over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. And the Dolomites are awful special. That's an amazing part of the world. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to give some questions to you that came from our audience in a survey we did this last fall that answered them as long or short as you want. What was the best and worst wing you've ever flown? The worst wing. Yeah, the best and the worst, if you can remember. From 89, you've flown just about all of them. Yeah.
The best wing, I won 2004, for me, the first time, the German cross country competition. And this was with a gin glider. And I loved this so much. But today, the performance is not very good, if you compare with 2004. But this was my lovely wing. And in the moment, some years ago, it was the Chili 3 from Skywalk. It was climbing so perfect. Yeah. Since, I think, six years, I'm not flying competition wings anymore. I'm flying ENB or ENC.
And you know, not competitions, more for me. So this Chili 3 was the best climbing machine ever. I've heard that's a good
one. And what about the
worst? Oh, I could not say the worst.
No. No? Not even back in 89? To
the time I was
flying the glider, after some flights, I loved all of them. Ah, excellent, excellent. Good answer. Good answer. So, you know, I'm sponsored from Skywalk the last 10 years. And I'm not looking so much about other companies. I look what Skywalk, I take the B or the C glider or what I like to have. And after some flights, I'm very happy with the glider.
Bricky, thinking back to when you were in the competition years or just into, you know, the 10-hour flights when you were really going big, one of the questions that someone wanted me to ask you is, what was your process from the beginning to the end in the preparation for the flight? In other words, you know, getting ready for it. Did it start the day before or the week before? What were the steps that you would take to prepare either your mind, your body or whatever for a big flight from Spikebone? You know, you're going to go to the Antholts FAI.
Yeah. When you first plan the big flights, I have done this in the wintertime. What is possible? What is a good strategy? What are the good lines? And then, yeah, then waiting for the good weather. And when you see the good weather is coming,
every time when I will do a big flight, I'm the day before at the mountain. I don't run in the morning, drive in the night and then go to the mountain. I'm every time on the day before on the mountain to have to to to to relax to to go on my head through through the flight or what I will do. Yeah. So I prepared mental the day before. The next day, I hope the weather will be so good as is I hope.
That's that's good advice.
Yeah. But but the planning is is long, long before. Yeah.
OK. What can you think you think back on your career? What tip what was something you learned from another pilot or your wife or at a competition? What was the what was the one thing that you learned that made the biggest difference in your success, in your ability to stay in the sky, in your ability to go. Farther, what was what was the thing that made the most impact on your flying?
Not normally. I'm also in the hurry when I'm flying and and sometimes you have to stay at the at the place and wait for the good high to cross a big valley, sometimes I'm not at the cloud base and the valley crossing is very long and not in the first years. I started the crossing and also I have done this when it was not the perfect high to do that. So stay calm and wait for the next thermal. What brings you to 300 meters more high and then go. And this is not my my favorite thing. Normally I don't wait and I cross and that I learned from Torsten Hane.
He said, oh, don't be in this hurry, don't wait, wait for the right time.
That's yeah, that's great advice. What should you talked about this a little bit already, but what should beginners avoid is they, you know, the less than 200 hour pilots? What what should they what's what's a good arc for them early on?
They should think that they should not fly in bad weather conditions. If there's not in the strong lee sides, if they have a lot of experience, every pilot, all pilots are flying in lee sides and if it is not too strong. But if the wind for me, I said in the mountains, the wind is stronger on the ridge level than more than 20 K. Never, never go in the lee side. If it is only 10 K and they are a good thermals, OK, then you can go. But but I don't know where is the border. Do it and do it not be. Be careful and don't fall down.
That's a good one. We had we have to break the rule a lot in the X-Alps, especially this year. Yes. Yeah. We were flying in so much wind. It was just absurd. It was crazy.
Yes, I know that. And that's the reason I will never join you at the X-Alps.
They were all X-Alps. Pilots are crazy. Yeah, that's true. If you're not crazy, you don't have to start there. That's true. Then you have no chance.
It's
solid, solid.
OK, this is a good one. What was or still is the hardest or most demanding thing that you needed to learn or still need to learn? You just talked about, you know, you were impetuous for many years and would leave too low. You wouldn't wait for the proper height to do. But a crossing. But is there been anything else that's been a real, you know, for example, mine is I reverse turn way too much and I always have. I always, you know, I'm going right now. I think I can get it better to the left. I'm trying really hard to stop that. But, you know, is there anything that that you have found difficult to course correct in your own flying?
Oh, I think this is a mental mental thing. To be in the in the head clear. I want to fly a big distance and I will do that. And I'm motivated. And then this is the most important thing to be successful, to fly far. And yeah, this is the most important thing. Be clear in the head and do the mental thing. You will do that.
Mm hmm. Burkhardt. It's been. It's been a real joy. It's it's it's it's great to connect with you. Like I said, you are a hero for me. Your book has had a massive impact on on my own flying. It's a joy to see that there's this new third edition out 16 years after or something like that, after the after the first. And so congratulations. I hope sales continue to go great and all the best to you and your wife as you travel around. Let's explore the sky.
Yeah. Thank you very much. I'm very happy to speak with you. I saw you and then on the X-Alps. And it was very fun to see all the good pilots to do that big thing.
Yeah. Like you said, we are all crazy, but.
Yeah, but I was a lot lot time on the computer to watch you all.
It's a good time waster for everybody, for us, too, for a couple of weeks every year. Yeah. Thank you, Burke. I appreciate it.
OK, thank you. Thank you, Kevin.
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