Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud-Based Man. Don't have any housekeeping for you today. The X Red Rocks is full. We've got a wait list going there. If you're still keen, it's worth applying because some people will inevitably not be able to make it. And so get yourself on the wait list. It's xredrocks.com. I'm pretty excited that that's all coming together. I think this will be by far the biggest hike and fly event that's ever been thrown in North America. So we should have a blast. It's coming up. I am off to Turkey for the World Cup here in a couple days, but just recorded this podcast today with Torsten Siegel, one of my heroes. And the comp scene, he's been a test pilot for many, many years with UP and then Swing and UP back in the 90s.
And then Swing for five years and then he's been with GEN now for over a decade as a test pilot and designer. Very accomplished comp pilot. And we did the math, I think, during the show in almost 30 years flying comps and just had a really nice result at the Superfinal out in Switzerland. So we spent some time talking about his history and designing and his adventures in paragliding and then get pretty specific into comp tactics and stuff. And then we talked about his career and his strategies and that kind of thing. So if you're interested in comps or struggling with how to be consistent or do well or you're a veteran or a beginner at comps, I think you'll really enjoy this. So enjoy this talk with Torsten Siegel.
Torsten, it's good to see you. I've seen you a bit lately. We saw a couple of times. We saw each other at Nationals in Chelan and then I followed the Superfinal very closely. I was wishing I was over there with you guys. It was just too quick a turnaround after the X-House to get back to Switzerland. But you got a lot of days. You only had a couple, I think the last day and one day in the beginning. And that's pretty remarkable for flying in the Rhine Valley. How were the conditions and what was it like?
So it was very special, I have to say. I've been out four times in the centers and this was the strongest conditions I've... ever flown there.
But you said no accidents. Nobody had any trouble? Were there some close calls or anything? Because I heard a few people that I follow on Instagram said it was pretty rough. A few people just decided to land one day and just, okay, that's too much.
Yeah, we had even like Michael Siegel, World Cup winner on the third task. He was in a pretty nasty galley, something where the wind was blowing in together with Tim Bollinger. And Tim got just blown up like a... Yeah, he was flying crazy. And then Michael definitely decided, no, this is too much. And he landed, which I... Yeah, definitely in this situation, I flew a little bit more outside, but it's definitely some spots where it was too much and where it was not so nice to fly. Sometimes when you are high, you don't feel it. Sometimes you don't catch turbles. You're coming low there or whatever. So it's a very unique area. And there are always some surprises.
Yeah. There are always surprises around some corners. And this year we had a lot, but like you say, luckily we had no accident or nothing, but this is quite unique for a competition like this. Yeah.
I mean, did I read that it was the first Superfinal that's been done in proper mountains? Is that correct?
Correct. Yeah. I was also surprised because I guess I flew more or less all despite one. And there was always the dream from Xavier. Also the former World Cup chief who unfortunately died then during flying. I think it's like seven, eight years ago. It was always his dream to have the Superfinal in the Alps. And now with the COVID situation and all the messed up events and World Cup calendar, it finally happened. And therefore we are even more happy that it was so successful that we had so many tasks.
Insane racing. And I think it was the most sport event ever when it comes to competition and the pilots.
I hope they can keep doing that. I mean, it's what a spectacular, the pictures are, I mean, the Rhine is, you know, I've flown there a bunch with all the races, the X-Alps and stuff. And I mean, like you said, it does bite. There are some snakes that crawl out of the steep mountains there, but it's beautiful. And what an awesome place to race.
I don't regret. I don't regret it. Normally what I, what I would say, it's perfect for flying with your friends and in Roy, not
great for racing,
racing, but how that people on the rich and stepping on something and say, Oh, it's so nice, put in the glacier and get, and so on and so on. Oh, please go on my way and hold on,
hold on, hold on,
and it's too tight and it's too tight. I need some, I need some space.
So, you know, it's, it's, yeah, I repeat myself, but it's a unique place and it's, and it's and when the conditions with a high cloud base and everything what we had a few days then it's really outstanding and i think also pretty safe to fly but it can be different then for me the the most sketchy thing is always when you are in these very rough conditions and then suddenly it's 20 30 pilots you just try in the in the east side in the eternal you try to climb proper and the wing pushes you out and you know it happens with the others too and so this is the situation when you are with two three pilots i feel pretty comfortable but with a lot of pilots in these conditions this is something i i i rather do this then in brazil or somewhere yeah
yeah yeah fair enough fair enough how long have you been flying comps i
think right after the second world war
close to this though i i think i started in 94 okay with the the dhv junior challenge and then something 96 the first world cup and since 99 i'm a german national that's
27 years torsten flying cops i think something like that
i think you're counting wrong
well you keep you keep yourself extremely fit that must that must help yeah what what is your exercise regime what do you what do you do to stay fit
during kofi that was drinking beer it's worked out very well for you no it didn't work out the tree master recognizes you gotta do some setups
well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well well gym in the boxing gym with the kids i have two kids they are like six and eight now and they uh they really enjoy the kickboxing a little bit so we are doing this together and then more or less all the yeah i try to make each day some sports instead of drinking beer sometimes i drink beer no wonder
you're such a good pilot
yes it's getting it's getting uh harder when you're getting older
sure sure sure um will you get your kids into flying oh
good question so i flew with them already um for sure and they they love it and i think my little one my girl she's six years old she's super adventurous and she always blames me that i never fly proper with her so um now when when we have to the possibility to travel now i definitely like to fly with her but honestly i'm also happy if they are do kite surfing or some other things something a little
less less gravity related
as i don't like to become that you become a test pilot like me
right right
when they're doing i can fly i'm happy uh and see you i for sure if they're interested i will introduce them into the sport um but i leave it also open by i think it's definitely kind of sport uh which you should choose by yourself and um i don't like to push them into this because this is something they have to find out by their own
yeah do you how long it was was jen your introduction to being a test pilot and working in that in the industry or did you work before with somebody else oh
yeah way before um so actually when i was studying mechanical engineering i started to fly in the german league and during this time uh up paragliders was was very strong they had from daichi kosho from the japanese they had some support and they uh they were thinking about big paragliding yeah like like playing golf something like this so they spent a lot of money for this and i had a lot of new pilots and i was i became a team pilot for up i think this was in 96 something yeah i think it was in 1996 i think it was in 1996 i think it was in 1996 i think it was in 1996 and uh then when i have to write my bachelor thesis i uh asked up if they are interested and they said yeah we can do something together so they had also another engineer so my bachelor thesis was about measuring performance of paragliders in the vehicle on the on the runway so it was quite interesting but i failed also but
nevertheless i got a got a good diploma for this so everyone was really happy and with this i was after this i was very close to up and then they asked me if i'm interested they need some test pilots and just for for beginner wings and everything and i said yeah as long as i'm studying i can do this and then actually i got into this so i was starting there as a test pilot competition pilot with the third part time and then when i finished studying um i was thinking about yeah let's do a year or something like this and i think i did a good job were
you in germany at the time i
was in germany yeah yeah and i was studying in high bond that's near stuttgart and it's south germany and then i moved to the lake of constance that's at the border to switzerland austria and germany and yeah and now i'm 15 years with ut um then together with stefan stiegler um he was the main designer and um so we worked together and then i was for five years at swing oh okay um paraplaus and now nearly 10 years fortune so in april next april i worked 10 years for jim and
is that is that your 100 job
um i mean in other words do you have other do
you have other sources of
yeah at the beginning you can imagine it's like uh it's really a bad job because everyone everyone thinks that god damn it he can fly so he has fun and it's his hobby so why should we pay him no it's it's definitely not very well fit and so i was at the beginning i was writing quite a lot for uh where we had more the german and uh we had the damning magazine we had the flying light magazine and thv and i was working also as a photographer for a local newspaper so i had quite a lot of side incomes there because it was necessary and then let's say when i established myself more and more as a also designer and then the incomes became better and also the time is less for for doing other things
so now i'm working as a photographer for a local newspaper and then i'm working as a photographer
for the travel company and i'm also being instrumental in the travel company. i
was being instrumental. well. well. well. well. well. well. well. well. well. well.
well.
well. well. What does it involve? And how do you do it in Toronto?
In Toronto, it's a thing I'm traveling a lot. This is for sure. I'm in Toronto because my wife, she works here. And our kids are going to school. So as a paragliding pilot, it's pretty hard to feed your family. So therefore, your wife needs a good job.
True. True, true, true. Yes. No, you have to balance things in a way. Especially when you have family, it's for sure easier when you're single and just can do what you want because then you're much more flexible. But yeah, well, I'm quite happy to have my two kids and my base here. But yeah, like you mentioned, in Toronto, we do sometimes a little bit of towing and there's some soaring areas, but there's definitely no reason to fly here. So. And most of the time, I think about to go to Salt Lake City or when we met in Chile and I was there one week earlier because, you know, the weather's always nearly always good there despite the fires this year or whatever. So what we are looking for is when we are making the test sessions to go in some areas
where we are to 99 % sure that we can fly the whole for two weeks. So areas like Valle de Bravo, Salt Lake City, Chile and. And. So. Yeah. Yeah. Like this. Are you
testing the full range of gin or are you mostly just testing the comp end of things or everything?
It's it's more or less depending on the projects and priorities we have and how it goes. So it's for sure. Gin is our main designer. He's coming up with all the ideas and I support him with this. And then once we are. We agree on the projects and we split it sometimes that I focus on on one of the wings and sizes and the other. But mainly then also we join each other again in order to fly tested.
How much time do you spend in Korea?
Yeah, recently, not a lot because for sure, the COVID situation and the traveling, it's it's hard. And I was thinking about now to fly to Korea. They still have these two weeks quarantine. And. And we try to find a way that I maybe can skip it. It's still tricky. So we decide now to make the next test session again in the Alps with our team pilots there with Michael Siebel and Tim Bollinger.
But yeah, normally I'm like four times in Korea. It's mainly spring and autumn time because in summer you have the rainy season and winter is pretty cold. So. Awesome.
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
Awesome. Awesome. background with mechanical engineering was that real critical for becoming a designer with with paragliding or is it something you just picked up working with up and over the years is it yes
it's one interesting thing because before i studied my dad he's a tailor and he had a company with 60 employees and when i was a young gun i don't like to work i don't i'd like to do anything and then he said listen son you don't hang around the street you work now here and i said okay i work there so uh i became a tailor too so i was like two years two years training and the nice thing is i i could make my first flight suits by my own but when i stopped this because i it was industrial production of of clothing so this was really boring i said oh i will never do this again but it's very interesting because it came very handy uh
started the paragliding business and and making wings so a lot of the changes i can do myself and because he also for sure had a pretty good understanding when it comes to suing and producing the wings so this was uh this was quite interesting that this was just by chance that i had this this knowledge because i never thought i could ever use it later for paragliding and the thing is with in germany i think when you study engineering it's uh the the it's quite intense and i was there for five years on the on the high school on the university sorry and the main thing also you you had some aerodynamic backgrounds and everything but it's the the main thing is all your technical understanding and the knowledge of this and then i think it's pretty easy to adapt into fields which are
very similar and this is the main thing with aerodynamics also designing a paraglider you have the the structural base where mechanical engineering is is anyway perfect for this and you have these aerodynamic components uh where we have anyway we have some support also from aerodynamic engineers and um for myself um i have for sure the the basic knowledge with this and ideas and everything how it goes together
what kind of a pilot makes a good test pilot you know in other words are you are you basically you take a a new design uh you know third edition of the xxx whatever it is and you take it up are you just stalling it like crazy are you spinning it i mean are you doing all the kind of civil testing or or or what what kind of or are you just flying it around and kind of getting a feel yeah
um let's say the positive it was more like this that it was always pretty hard to pass the the certification meanwhile i have to say since since i worked for chin and even before the designs and the knowledge is so advanced that normally the wings they don't make big problems as like we had it in the past that you had deep stall that you had nasty shooting that the wing was super dynamic and everything all these things are quite rare for sure you can have some surprises with some re-openings or whatever but it's mainly now when when when we are introducing new designs or making new designs at the beginning it's definitely more the flying in general is the wing
performing in the way is the handling like you like to have it and what's now our main point since a few years it is is it also suitable for the target group so it's easy to fly is it something what what you like but you don't feel stressed out and everything um so it's for sure in the higher classes the performance is something but performance is also nothing without control and i think this was also when you think about boom 11 for example i think this was a pretty good performing wing but for a lot of pilots too demanding or they felt too nervous pilots they have enough skills and me honestly i love it because it gives you a lot of feedback
and it was interesting to fly but you need a lot of time to understand doing it everything and i think this is something what we are now more aware that most of the pilots they don't have so much time to fly and they like to have something where you just jump on and say yeah that's easy i i'm confident with the wing and everything and there's there's not much uh how to learn and to understand and get into it so i think this is uh one of our main points for future designs to make performance very accessible for the pilot group in order that it feels from the beginning very confident with a nice insult i
don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole just because we have with other people on the show in the past with the whole open class and CCC and you know the peter heater stuff and that led to all of that. But do you wish the industry was going in any kind of a different direction than what it is right now? I mean, it seems like the CCC class is working quite well. But do you wish, for example, that we'd done the Robbie Whittall, stick with the cereal class and everybody's kind of wearing the same shoes? Or how do you feel about all that?
Yeah, I think I'm quite happy with the current development because I think the cereal class, when we had it for one or two years, it showed these big drawbacks when it comes to controlling the wing. To see if it's really the same wing, but everyone is flying. And when you ever try to measure a wing and find out differences, immediately you figure out how frustrating this is. And it gives, for sure, the... Also, there's... And people assume as they have a better performing wing, there are always some doubts. Yeah, of course, is he flying a cereal wing or did he make his own wing with some thinner profiles which nobody can check or with some whatever, with some special attention? So you have always these kind of thoughts in the mind of people.
And I think it's like the paragliding sport is so small. It's not like a big industry like a Formula One where you have some engineers. You have some engineers who are controlling the cars afterwards and checking everything if it's according to the rules. So it's like... You have to see in Switzerland, they were checking the wings in the evening at the cable car station until 11 o 'clock and just try to get some main measurements to see if everything is working well. But we are such a small community.
So I for definite cereal class was the wrong way because the... This should be held for the normal, for the leisure pilots and some kind of sport pilots. And with the CCC and the regulations we have, we have a kind of freedom of design. But we are limiting the most dangerous parts. This is in the past, extreme full speed flying with trippers and everything.
So I think it's all on a pretty good way currently. And sometimes, you wish a little bit more freedom with the design, but then also we are doing some kind of crazy wings or wings which are borderline. And then you're happy again that you don't have to fly this in a competition that you can go back to your normal wing. Because I remember the open class times in the past where you come up with a new prototype. And it was so sketchy to fly. Did you say that the whole competition, you couldn't enjoy it because we were just focused on the wing and you... Yeah, you came with your old one. So no, and all of this, I think we have a nice margin of safety.
And also when you speak to all the pilots, I think they're pretty happy with the situation.
How did you get into flying 30 years ago?
Yeah, it was actually, I think it all started with my dad because he was, he was in the German army. He was a pilot there. But then when they, his dad died, he had to take over the company, so the business, but he was a lot on the airfield. He became a same plane pilot. So as kids, we were hanging around a lot with these strange guys on the airfield. And it was super interesting because it was big playground and everything. But still like, yeah, flying gliders, sail planes is a little bit different. And then we have the, the called the Wasserkuppe. So this is a mountain in Fulda, Frankfurt.
They are, they did it first gliding. And then some, was one day my brother came and said, yeah, Thorsten, I saw something strange. They're jumping with some parachutes down the mountain, whatever we have to look at this. And I said, oh, that sounds fun. So yeah, I went up with my brother and we had to look and yeah, he said, yeah, just, yeah, just, yeah. And then I was running down the hill, like crazy. It's so much fun. I wasn't, I wasn't really flying. I, I have my first flight here. It was always like flying like 10 seconds, 15 seconds, 30 seconds, new record. So I was very, very efficient during this time because it was just the kind of.
And this is how everything started. And let's say it was, it was these, I think I fell in love from, from the first I was running and suddenly these are lifting your legs and flying. It was like these childhood stream, which came through. And then it was for, if a half a year, a year, it was a little bit, I got frustrated with the performance because you always like going through the bushes, don't reach the landing field and everything. And then I got a little bit, I feel, but then the next generation of wings arrived and I jumped immediately for my schooling. Who are in the settings? I guess it was there.
And then suddenly you could fly it. This was then again, was like, wow. And then you have your first tour and everything. And yeah, it then changed my life. I have to say, because I was definitely kind of addicted and was some, also what I was missing. My whole life. I was always looking for something. I wanted to do. I was not so into surfing. And then suddenly a fly seems to be something. Yeah, this is, this is really super special. So I try also to study in the south of Germany to be able to be closer to the mountains. And then it became a huge part of my life until today.
Wow. Is there been in that kind of arc of your career and test piloting, you know, in comps and that kind of thing, if there been, you know, big lulls in your passion or has it just been, you know, has been pretty, pretty exciting from the beginning.
It's, I have to say it was pretty exciting from the beginning. There were two things. What I have to say as a water force, you sure the bunny at the beginning where you have to say, yeah, no, I studied so long. And also my dad asked me a few times, son, don't you like to have a real job now? And, and, and, uh, no, but if you can let me somebody, I really paid it back. So it's like, you know, when you, when you're 26, 28 and still begging for money or something like this,
it's, I said, this was something a few times that I had to do something serious and, and,
and, uh, yeah, I have to say as a hobby and whatever, but yeah, never had that. But this, this was definitely, this was definitely a few times that I was writing some, uh, do some companies and, uh, job applications, but, uh, it didn't like me. So I, I was just stuck with a drag line. And then it's, it's for sure. Uh, all these first times is the, let's say I never had a big accident. Actually, I never broke any bone or whatever. So I'm super lucky, but I have to say I had one, two, three close calls where I have to say, okay, this was just super lucky. Now it was just by, it's just by chance. I'm still walking away.
Uh, I could be in a wheelchair. I could be dead or whatever. So these are also the things I had one where I was for, for one year, I was thinking about, was it the university take this risk or not? Um, and, uh, then I was for sure when some of your best friends are dying, these are the, these are the, these, these very sad moments. God damn it. It's yeah. Flying is nice, but is it, it's competition flying is testing. You see, wouldn't be high get fly. It wouldn't be just enough. Just go off somewhere. Every decent terminal flight must be, isn't worse to be. I don't even, I'm extreme, but is it worse to go so far and risk your life?
And, uh, because yeah, when you see what happens to, to all of the friends that we buy, and it's, it's, I have to say too many, which I know who, where we always say, I will always remember you, you and then you after 20 years, I forgot even the names. So it's, um, it's the thing, uh, yeah. They always have to question yourself. And it's something you have to think about if you like to take this risk or, or, or not, but it's there for sure. Many times where you have doubts and I think it's good to question yourself. Yeah. To be not blind and, uh, always have this awareness that, uh, things can happen to you. And do you like to do this or not?
And this will be something I think until the end of my career, this will, will rising and falling. And I will see how I handle this.
Is there, is there been anything concrete you've changed about the style or the approach or something you've done with your flying? Over the years, you know, for example, when you had kids or is there anything you're doing that, um, now in terms of being safer or taking less risk that maybe you wish you would have earlier, or is it just kind of a natural progression of,
I think it's more natural progression. The main thing is, and the other kids or my, my relations never changed my thoughts that you have to, you need to be honest to yourself and, and, and, check if you like to take the risk. And this is more of a personal thing. I don't take my family into account for this because anyway, I like to live also. I'm not seeking, I'm not a dead seeker. They're all, it's, uh, yeah, I like to play suicide games or whatever. So it's, uh, it's something I, I, I think about a lot. And, um, like you mentioned, it's, it's a natural thing.
When you start, for example, racing at the world cup, it's quite funny, like 10 minutes before the race starts, I was like, do I really like it? And then when the race starts, it's like, yeah, it's so fun. And then it's so fun. So the main thing is, you see the, I know why I'm doing this because it's for three, four hours. How long the race takes, you're focused on one specific thing. And this is so nice. As all the other, things are gone. It's just about flying and, uh, observing the course. He wants best and dive into something and forget about the, the, the rest of your life.
When you're popping out, suddenly the bubble bursts. And you're like, what happened? What happened? The real life is hitting you.
Especially in Chilean, when you're going, Oh, dust devil, dust
devil.
So these, this is saying, I think this makes, uh, air gliding also. So unique, especially as a competition fly, because it's a, it's a short circle of life. You see, it's like this race that into the end and you have all these up and downs. Oh no, I'm popping out. Oh, I catch a terminal. I'm so lucky. So these, these emotional feelings, what you have, and you missed the start, you know, it's like, uh, all these things for what happened in your life. You see happens there within four hours. And, uh,
yeah, it's all kind of compressed into this one experience. It's compressed. Yeah. And you
can learn also a lot about your other life about this, isn't it? That you say, yeah, well, I'm low now.
So this is something, um, where you, yeah. I think I'm, I'm, I'm a very patient person and also real life. There are not many things which are hitting me. I'm not a power anymore. Hmm. Because, because, because paragliding
so brutal on you,
it teaches you a lot of patients.
It is. Yeah. It is like this. Also, you cannot change it. You know, when you miss the turtle, you can cry, you can, you can swear, but it's not changing, you know, it's just nature. The turtle is gone then. So, so you have to be patient. So you're landing or you're trying something else. Maybe it works, maybe not. So it is, uh, it's, it's something many times you're making anyway, jokes about this, especially the final flight. You see, when you have flight ratio 40, you're like, how can I make it? Can I not make it? You know, it's like this excitement.
Then it was the third task. When, when we are all like 200 meters in front of gold, you know, it's like after, after 12K gliding, it's like, oh no. But anyway, you, you, you have smile again. You can be pissed off for a minute, but yeah. Yeah. It won't change it. Isn't it? So yeah, I think this is the beauty about it.
I've got a bunch of very specific comp questions that we'll get to in a bit. But one of the things I, we just, I just recorded another show with Wally down in Australia, a couple of days ago, and we were talking about comps. Um, you know, one of the things that is so striking about it, and I guess it's, it was, it's what makes it so wonderful. And also, like you said, it can also be so brutal. You know, you look at the results, from one comp to another, and there's always the, there are certainly a group of pilots who are very consistent, uh, and consistently do well, but even them, uh, you know, you, you'll look at the, you'll look at the end results and see someone like Charles Cazzo, who's just a terrific comp pilot, you know, in Serbia, he was almost last, you know, and it, and it happens to everybody, you know, Dura Gotti, you know, he's won the Superfinal twice.
And in any given world cup, he could be down in the eighties, you know, it's just, um, what has your many years of comp experience? Do you, after a while, does that stuff just not bother you? And it's no big deal, because it happens to everybody, or is it still just like,
God, darn
it. I mean,.
Yeah, well, I, I think I had one, one nature experience. This was when we had the world cup, uh, Sierra Nevada, Spain. Mm-hmm. And we, uh, flew from the Sierra Nevada, we flew to the beach, and it was like, uh, literally, well, yeah, I think at five, five and a half thousand meters. And then we had to fly, finally fly in about one hour to the beach. Oh, and, uh, magic. It was definitely magic, but I, I didn't make it because it was one small, there was one small hill in front of the, in front of the beach. And honestly, I couldn't pass it. So I had to go left and I landed on the beach. Nearby. And it was a beautiful beach and all the people were coming, saying, Hey, wow, amazing.
You are here. And I was so pissed off and so grumpy and angry and whatever. And, uh, I even don't know why, because I could have swim, you know, enjoy myself, have a beer and get ready to, to go back. Um, but yeah, I was grumpy. And then, then I was thinking, uh, when I was driving back and even the next day, I say, if you are like this, when you don't make gold or something like this happens, then this will happen again. Like you mentioned many times, maybe as a, either you are accepting this or you're, you're quitting the sport. If you cannot take it, then it makes no sense. And this was, I think since then, I'm still for sure. And you close to have a very good result and you're bombing out or short of goal is like this.
Oh, and then, but honestly, I start laughing about myself now when I'm getting a bit grumpy. And so I think meanwhile, no, I'm over this. And like you say, there's also a big difference between, uh, Charles Casso and me because Charles Casso, I have to say he's like you mentioned, he's a, he's a very unique pilot and he flies alone. He make definitely his own decisions. He has his own ideas while, uh, I'm not that made out for this. I, I stick with the group. I let the group work for me. And so if you see my results, uh, most of the time, very constant, but also no top results.
As it is something. And if all this works out, I became European champion once because it was just on, on the average, it was like the best decisions for the pilot made. But, uh, I have to say also that they are a lot of much more unified. It's like Charles, like, uh, Stefan Morgan, Carla, for example, and yeah, you put this up now, 20 more, uh, I think. Look at on the reno more. So there's, there's a bunch of 15, 20 pilots who fly, uh,
very special on their own, who don't care about the group, but it's for sure. As you have quite big chance also that to bomb out over there. And this was the same thing with Charles. We just Superfinal. It was a little bit the same, like you say, and I get surveyed there. Suddenly his magic wasn't working anymore because just this one small thing, which is missing. And then it's much better to stick with the group because then you have possibilities. And, uh, but I admire these, these, these, these pilots. And I think these are real pilots. I think these are the good pilots, but it's not always successful. And this is the, this is the thing.
Is that a personality thing? Do you think, or is it, you know, cause I, I don't have nearly the experience that you guys do when it comes to comps. Um, but it's, you know, it's one of these things where I think I would categorize myself in that category of, uh, like you said, like Charlie doing my own thing, but I get penalized for it so much that, you know, I try to go, no, no, no, this, that's not how you fly comp. You have to have no original thoughts, stick with the gaggle, you know, do your thing, but it's,
uh, yeah, I think it's, it's for sure. It's a personal thing. It's also something, but you're looking, it's a, for me because, uh, also since I live in Canada, I fly four or five competitions a year and, um, to be able to qualify for the German national team, I just can mess up one more or less. The others must be good. So this is something where you fly result oriented. So that means you're looking for a result in the top 10. And, um, with this, you cannot take these, these risks that you mess up like two, three comps or whatever. Um, and then it's also something about, uh, what suits you. Also, I think there are a lot of pilots involving us for, for example, all of these guys also now Switzerland who's just pushing us here.
And then if it works out, he has an awesome result, but also he, he bumps out here and there, but you know, it's a kind of became a kind of his style and, uh, he's not, he's not bothering with this. I have to say when I'm forming out once, twice, or she land three times out, which is very unusual for me. I say, but even I can live with this, but I don't like to know like for costs. That's a little too much.
So yeah. And normally these kind of balancing, this is, this is the major, major thing. Uh, what, for example, look, it's perfect. Always. The winner of these big competitions. Uh, yeah, always these, these, these pilots who did the perfect setup between pushing, staying with a group and choose the best tactical, uh, decisions for this competition. But it can be also then, like you say, the next call can be definitely that we forms out twice. And that's it. You see, it's like, uh, or Pierre, Amy, who wants like, it was world champion and more, uh, the Superfinal was also not his call. You see it, it works out for one competition for the other one.
Again, not, but this is, this is the way, yeah. How you have to do now also to, to win one of the big calls.
What have you, if you've seen any kind of theme that's run through when you have a successful comp, uh, if you've been able to kind of tie it to other successful comps and, and come up with any kind of recipe, uh, okay, this one was, you know, this one was because I had this kind of headspace or this kind of, you know, I, I had exercised this way for a year or is it just almost random?
Yeah. Yeah. It can be easy. I was very successful when I was completely drunk the night before.
This is common with a lot of people actually.
And this is, uh, yeah, I, I had to be a lot of others. I said, the bowling had also, I don't like to go in details, but you want also tasks. Then the next day, but I thought, man, he cannot even fly. Then he was, then he was winning the task. So this is something where you can see how special terrified it is. But I also agree. Uh, like you say, they are always more or less the same pilots, uh, in front. And what I recognize when I always think now after Switzerland, I have, I have really good performance. Now I should fly a competition. See, as I think also that you're training a lot, uh, and do it cross country flying in the eyes, like, or look out. Do we, uh, I think this gives you the self confidence to master all the, the situation of saying, oh, I go there because there's an external,
I don't care about the others over there. But so this is, this is definitely something, uh, I think which, uh, where you can see why they are, as good as they are. And this is something I have to say, I'm missing, uh, sometimes quite a little bit. And I, I recognize when I fly a lot that I'm getting really much better confident, especially with the full speed flying near the, near the cliff or all these things. Uh, so this, this helps, but it's for sure no guarantee, uh, that you've been the next call. It's not like, uh, when you go to in 400, 100 meter running and you make it in 10 seconds, then you're always at this level at a competition.
You can be at this level, but you just by chance, you're forming out two times and you end up with this. So there's no more or less no, no guarantee compared to other sports. Yeah. It's a totally different game in it. It's, it's the kind of you, you need a kind of luck in situations. And when you think about your exams flying, for example, uh, it's, it's just, it's always this magic. This one day where we can just can push ahead. Isn't it? And the other, suddenly they have the bad weather and you get stuck. And it's just, he's like surfing the wave with a good weather to the end. You know, you guys, you are like, I was laughing it out. Happening there. You're struggling.
And it's like,
and yeah, this is the, but it's, let's say it's, it's a decisions, but also, yeah, we need much more luck. Okay. Okay. So, uh, to other sports. Mm. Mm. Oh, it's a, it's a bigger factor in our, in our school.
When you're in a comp, do you have any kind of mantras? Do you have any kind of, uh, you know, focus things or non-focused things? Do you try to get kind of like, let your subconscious do it all and just look around and enjoy the day? You know, do you try to get into kind of a flow state? Are you trying to really strategize and, and, and if any of those things, are there any kind of things that you do where, Hey man, wake up or, Hey, let's have some fun or let's laugh or any of those things, any kind of thing like that?
Yeah. I laugh too much.
I don't have to remember this. The main thing is what I always figured out because for sure, I was with my job and pilots around now when you were boom 12 or especially also the competition things we have. So I'm quite often distracted. So you talk a lot with other pilots. Oh, I always, each morning when I wake up, I was like, okay, it was at least now have a look at the back where you're flying and have a look where the goal is. Did you know how this goes? Because, uh, uh, this is something I, I've been, we are when, when I'm flying, say, ah, it's not good to go there, but now we're going, yeah, well, it's good. Yeah. So it's like, it's, it's definitely nice to be focused for,
for like 15 minutes, the, the mentally prepared for the time, ask where to fly. Um, yeah, can be the tricky parts, have some alternative rules or whatever. So I have to say, I'm missing this. I'm aware of this, but it's like, uh, I like to goof around a lot and make a lot of jokes that I sometimes I'm not serious enough.
That's probably good. I don't
know. It's probably good. It's
good in some ways, but, uh, something is, this also bothers me because they, what have you, if you would look at the map to see where the goal is, you would approach it different, you see, but now you're like, it must be somewhere around here. You're looking at it's like, yeah, it must be this field or whatever. So it's like, uh, these, these are for sure a few things where I try to work on myself, but otherwise, yeah, like I say, it's, it's so many years where I'm doing this and I see all these, these boys who are extreme, focused, stressed out or whatever. And I try to do it in a way that I have to enjoy it.
He ambitious enough and still get a good results and everything. Just try to balance it.
You mentioned Martin shield, the kind of weather guru and Swiss team coach and stuff. Um, when I go to a comp, I don't pay attention at all to the weather. I don't look, I mean, I listened to whoever's giving a weather briefing in the morning. That's about it. Do you, do you put much energy into weather to comp?
Oh yeah. I think for the centers, it's worth to listen to because as specially as you have a lot of different considerations, I think in Chile, I was also, okay, the wind is coming from the rest. Right. Yeah. Awesome. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mediates to moderate strong or whatever. So I, I think, I think, I think it's the same thing when you fly somewhere in the flats or the same thing when you fly for something or whatever. So the most interesting thing there is at the basics a little bit, but it's also, we fly such a unique, small situation sometimes where it's, that's more interesting. Yeah. What is the group doing or over?
Yes. Now I don't travel to jump and then have a transition at a different time. So I think the, the overall better is not, I agree with you. I don't think it's so important many times, but the centers and in the eyes and in some situations, definitely it's can be some technical decisions, especially when you know, when development comes, you just can't go low. This was at a second task. I was very conservative and this was something if I would trust more data forecast or would be more aware of this, then yeah, you, you just go direct and push the video. I leave it to hold and things like this. So I think you have to,
to see where you're flying.
Torsten, do you pay any attention when you're at a comp? Do you pay attention to who's who or is everybody just information? Will you, in other words, we put more weight on an honor and or Julian or Stephen Lace or something
like that.
You know, somebody who knows or maybe somebody that flies similar to you. Is it, is it, do you, do you follow people that are more your style? Maybe
correct. Yeah, I don't fly. I don't follow him because he's better. But he asked them to my try to avoid them. Nobody's it's it's for sure.
Because like I mentioned it as, as I, I, I more stick to the group and everything. I, but you like to stick to the right people. When you are aware that they, that is still pushes still go. So sometimes your your your way out now. Really nice group of high six pilots with strong pilots. This is actually what I love most because then even with the dramas your working together your your pushing together. This is very nice to fly say. So I, I, I definitely take care or like to be in a group with pilots who fly very constant,
but also fast. This is something where I have a lot of fun and which works for my flying style. What
advice would you give to a newer comp pilot, somebody kind of getting into the game, maybe go into their first, so they've done a few lower level comps, but they're going to their first World Cup. We've got a whole big US squad going over to Turkey in a few days and a bunch of them I think it's their first World Cup ever.
Yeah, I think the main thing is to enjoy it. This is something I see a lot of newcomers, they are somewhat too ambitious, they are stressed out, whatever. So you... Just be relaxed and to be happy to do this.
Because also even if it's a World Cup or whatever, you should be honest with your flying skills and what you can do and how much you like to push and everything. So this should be the same at each competition and then proceeding from there or going further. Also what I can see with a lot of pilots that they jump too early, they are not ready to the competition gliders I think. Because still when you fly with a Seno or Leopard or the two-liner D-Wings, I think it's really worth to fly them until you're 100 % confident. A lot of racing, full speed bar or whatever, because this will be something which is for sure more demanding than on the C-Wings.
And you know, it's not a big deal. There you can see that people then get hesitant to fly them full speed and to use the full potential of the wing. So they always see these transitions, these gliding, oh, I'm losing there. But they never see how much they are losing by not flying full speed, by not going really close to the cliff, jumping into the lead turn, flying aggressive, turning tight and everything. So a few times I was even... In Switzerland I went crazy when the pilots are turning so wide. I said, come on, we can go all in the tight turn and everything. So, or Chilean was the same thing. They said, yeah, they are definitely afraid to bank it higher or even, you know,
you should feel the spin when it's coming slightly and you can even play with this or whatever. So this is something to be 100 % confident with the wing and you have the skills to fly this. I think this is something what most of the pilots,
I would say don't have, but it would be better if they stay a little bit longer on the Nova wings to get all these skills to fly at 110 % even and add a lot of maybe even front wheels and fly full speed with this. And then with this experience, jumping to a CCC wing, I think it would make them better pilots because I think they jump too early and then they are... always they rise up to a certain level. But then I'm also afraid sometimes when I fly with these wings, which is a good thing, but I also try to train to get over this to fly at 100%. But it takes a lot of energy and time.
And I think they never reach to fly these wings to the top performance.
How does the FTV score, how does the FTV score, and what is your scoring and lead points? I mean, there's all the cliché and I'm kind of looking for something specific. How does that change your strategy? Do you have any kind of systems, you know, if you blow the first day or I don't, you know, any kind of, any kind of just ways that you approach that?
Yeah, it's something, you see, with my flying, before FTV, I was always kind of pretty good, because I always try to fly constant and try to avoid to have a bomb out or something like this. With the FTB I have to say now I definitely like it also and I think it's fair for the pilots who are doing elite work or whatever, you have a high chance to bomb out. And I always try to bring it in my strategy but I always fail because I make a lot of stupid mistakes and bomb out and then I have anyway a discard. It happens quite often that I even start with the discard in the first task, I don't know why, and then I have to fly constant to catch up again.
But my dream is to use this in a certain situation where I have a realistic chance to do something on my own and try it. And if it works out, yeah. It's not I have a discard. It's always my dream but it's always happened to me.
It's quite rare that I can use it in the way how it's designed for. I just have to use it by random factors.
Torsten, I got a question that came in when we were going to do this as kind of a community podcast with you and Josh and Manuel out at Chelan and we just didn't get an opportunity because it went down the drain. Yeah. And then we were just going to be in the party mode there pretty quick on that last day. But I put out on the group on our telegram thing if anybody had any questions and one came through that I wanted to ask you and it's what recommendations do you have for C-class pilots and comps dominated by comp gliders who want to fly safe and make the most of the opportunity to fly and learn from the most more experienced pilot on hotter wings? So let me translate that a little bit. I think what this pilot is saying is, you know, if I want to see wing, I get dropped. Yeah. By the C guys, the C, the comp guys really fast. And what we learned, I wasn't there.
I don't know if you were, but for the ozone, you know, when everybody was on the serial class, you know, it was all the, it was all the names that you would expect flying the C gliders who still, you know, crushed everybody else. So I think that was really good for the normal C-class pilot to see, okay, well, it's not just the wing. It's, it's obviously skill. That's, that's the big tell here, but yeah, I think they're saying, you know, how do I learn from the comp pilots? Yeah. When I can't keep up with them.
Yeah. This goes more together, but I mentioned before that you, even with the C glider, you should be able to push it to a hundred percent. The main thing is like staying in bar, don't release too early, learn, learn all these things. It's like many times you hear, yeah, I couldn't fly full speed because there are two centimeters of the accelerator. Yeah. That's it, yeah, well, change it now, yeah, yeah, change it. I think this is, these are all these things to, to, I think in pilot is always aware, and you should be aware of what's, what's missing and, and when your skills are limited, and when you are afraid of, and then these points you have to work, you have to see, okay, the others are doing it definitely better.
They are, they are, they are much more banking, they're able to, to, even slightly stall it to fly slightly negative they can fly it very aggressive they can immediately know they are jumping into the lee side without being hesitated or whatever so it's always quick decisions reacting fast and definitely in a way what you can learn to fly aggressive which means not to others more in a way that you always immediately pushing going and even I had a friend unfortunately he died also but he mentioned a competition without a big collapse you didn't push about it you didn't push too much because it's something it shows that you are a chicken somewhere because this shows you the limit isn't it I don't totally agree to this but it's for sure something we all know oh now it's trouble that I rather go out or fly a little bit slower but you will never learn this how stable your wing can be if you don't push further and this is a good thing if you make a SIV with your wing especially learn that the front collapses the side collapses whatever
then you are good trained and then I also think when you are flying like in Chile and you fly full speed and you get a front it's not a big thing if you react very fast so you should not be afraid to get this and you should get a little bit used to this because then you can fly the wing to 100 % and I think this is the big advantage when we as CCC competition pilots stepping back on the C wings because they are fast so easy to fly and so safe that we don't mind if we have frontal collapses or side collapses because you are just stopping it continuing and they are not as fast as the CCC wings and everything so this is the thing and this is what you can learn about this is what
you can see. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
Awesome. Awesome.
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
777 or something like this. And he was flying so aggressive with his wing and he was passing out all the other pilots who were on the C-wings or even D-wings because when they're coming on the ridge, you see like 500 meters before, rather slow down a little bit, can be bumpy. And this guy just come in full speed, you know, hitting into the turbo, climbing and everything. For sure, he had not a performance like the others, but with his flying skills and flying the swing on the absolutely maximum what he can do, he was better than the others. This was very impressive, you see. I often think if pilots fly with an easier wing, they could perform better. But everyone is just looking on the gliding, isn't it?
You climb together and then you're gliding and then you're like, oh, now he's better. I need his wing. I need his wing because then I would be the same. But you don't see all the other things what I mentioned.
I mean, when you're in a place, I mean, we saw it in Chelan, didn't we, over and over, Colin Rathbun flying his Delta. You couldn't shake him all day, even in the long tasks. You know, and there were several people on Alpinas that were just, you'd turn around and there they were. There they were. You know, I mean, the only time you really, you know, the advantage was very noticeable was when we were pushing wind. But when there's no wind or going downwind, you know, it's pretty hard to shake those guys. Yeah, I
know these guys on the left and I was pushing, pushing, you know, and I was like, I should now get away from this guy. Yeah, they're fast. The lever's fast. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I think this is it. You should have the fun and the joy, even if you have this disadvantage then in some situations. You should also be aware of the advantages that you have. That if you are confident with the wing, that you fly something which is pretty safe and everything. But it's very interesting that the pilots, most of the pilots only focus on the gliding. And then it's like, yeah, I had no chance and now I need a better wing because then I can catch up with them and then I fly the same.
But it's not like this.
Torsten, we'll wrap things up here pretty soon. Because I want to be thinking about your time. I know you've got a bunch of stuff going on there, but I'm going to ask you a few kind of rapid fire questions here at the end. You don't have to answer them fast. They're just the kind of fun ones. First one, have you had any kind of aha moments recently in your flying career? You've been at this a long time, but has there been any kind of a, wow, that really helped or that was really cool or that was something you didn't really put much weight into in the past?
Yeah, honestly, it was when Mark, a friend of mine here in Ontario, he, because he was sick and tired to see the clouds and we have no mountains here, so he bought himself a winch, an electronic winch to town and one day he asked me, Torsten, you have to come, it's really cool. And I said, yeah, okay, well, I'll join you because there's COVID, I've locked down since half a year and I didn't fly a long time. So I'm definitely looking forward to this. And then it was he was really brave, he downed it three times and the third time then I was like, yeah, I released a little bit earlier because I think this field was working and this was like this classical Brazilian way like 30 meters over the field.
Yeah, I have it, I have it, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5, you know, and then it started working forever and then I ended up making sure at 3,000 meters on the cloud base and we are here in Ontario, we are following Peter Tsai and it was like you see, it was like these magic things about flying. I'm like, and it was fucking cold.
But it was so, I was like, this was this feeling again, which I had when I was a young boy, just to see this again, you know, to be in the elements and then I was with our new ENB wing so nothing spectacular, just cruising with 60 kilometers, make a big, big round landing there again. And this was like this thing where this aha moment was like, yeah, I know why I'm doing this because it's awesome. It's very, it's something about there are living 4 million people here in Toronto and there are just a bunch of five or 10 people who are doing this. And it's
crazy, isn't it? And it's great. It is.
It's really, it's still outstanding.
Yeah, that's cool.
Funniest thing you've ever seen in flying recently or ever? Ever.
That's going to that might take you a while to think about it. We can move to another question. There's a lot of funny ones, but I know you like to joke. So yeah,
you know, the most impressive thing was Matthias Roten when he was flying at the competition, the whole competition backwards. So he decided it's too boring. Yeah. And he had amazing skills, I have to say. And I think he was with the Swiss team in Brazil. And then he was like, yeah, it's too boring. So he was flying the whole house backwards.
It's
hard to wrap my head around. I get it with acro, but whoa. It's
pretty because you see it in a different way. So it's a crazy thing. Yeah. But he was great for this. Yeah.
Play Gravity is one of my favorite Moyes of all time. It was such a great movie that he did. Those guys did fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Real loss to the sport.
What piece of kit? This is interesting considering your background. What piece of kit gear would you like to see that doesn't exist yet?
Glasses for Turtles.
Really? You'd like to see that.
Interesting. I think just to see this once would be pretty interesting. Like, I have like a 3D animation thing. I think it's just how everything works. Maybe we would be so scared that we never fly again.
I know. I think it'd be terrifying.
It would be terrifying.
But just maybe at the end, you know, at the last day when I say, OK, I skipped flying now. It's the last day. And to fly with some goggles, which allows you to see everything.
I hope they never invent that. I think it'd be the end, but it'd also be, you know, a lot of people say that one. I think, oh God, I'm in the one hand, it'd be terrifying. The other hand, it'd be cop. But then and everybody would be like, oh, God, it's not the end. Everybody would see the same thing and be
weird. Yeah, it would be too easy to fly.
Yeah, it'd be too easy to fly for sure. If you could make one more flight, where would you go?
As the last flight?
Yeah.
And I don't mean that in a dark way. I mean, just, you know, the world's going to end tomorrow and you can go somewhere to fly. Where would it be?
I think where I started, at the Wasserkuppe. Because I could never travel there proper. So I had never a good flight there and they're making like long distance flights. So it would be nice to come back to the point where you started. And... Where is it?
What was the name of that? Was that
place? Wasserkuppe.
Oh, I don't know that one.
Yeah, it's near Fulda, Frankfurt. It's a pretty famous school. Ah,
okay, okay. Way up north. Yeah, okay. Yeah,
in the center of Germany. Yeah. And... Yeah, I think this would be super exciting to be able to have that big flight. I'm always dreaming of this.
Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot here, considering this is your job. But last question. Best and worst wing you've ever flown? Yeah.
Best wing for me was the Bube 11. I have to say I loved it. Especially when I won the Canadian nationals. It was like a dream. Everything worked so perfectly and I felt so safe and full speed and everything. And it's... I love this wing, I have to say. Yeah, yeah. Especially also for the safety and everything. And the worst wing was like... Ah, what's the... Phew. It was like... It was from flight design. I had once a C3. I had a C3. It was... It has like ground air in that. This was pretty tough to fly. And then it was the XC77 from UP.
This was also super nasty. It was like this... Between like shooting and deep stall. So the... It was like... Oh my god, yeah.
They were no fun. I'm happy that we are. That we passed this stuff.
Yeah, we don't really get bad wings anymore from anybody. No, no, no. At DOE. It's pretty amazing. No,
they're good. They're good
for nothing. Yeah, yeah. Torsten, what a pleasure. Thank you so much. I'm glad we were finally able to make this happen. Thank you for your patience. And congratulations at the Superfinal. Another great result. You kind of kept crawling up the ranks there. And that was fantastic to watch. But good to have you with us in Chelan. And it sounds like we've got a World Cup there now. Yeah, we're looking forward to that.
Yeah, this would be anywhere else. But I'm so happy that they announced World Cup there. Yeah. So I think we will have a lot of fun. I look forward to seeing you all there again.
Me too. That's a great place to race. Thanks, Torsten.
Okay, thank you so much.
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