Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Don't have any housekeeping for you today. The X-Red Rocks is full. We've got a waitlist going there. If you're still keen, it's worth applying because some people will inevitably not be able to make it. And so get yourself on the waitlist. It's X-RedRocks.com. Pretty excited that that's all coming together. I think this will be by far the biggest hike and fly event that's ever been thrown in North America. So, should have a blast. It's coming up. I am off to Turkey for the World Cup here in a couple days, but just recorded this podcast today with Torsten Siegel, one of my heroes, and in the comp scene, he's been a test pilot for many, many years. Was with Up and then Swing Up back in the 90s, and then Swing for five years, and then he's been with Jen now for over a decade as a test pilot and designer, very accomplished comp pilot, and we did the math, I think, during the show, in almost 30 years flying comps, and just had a really nice result at the Superfinal out in Switzerland.
So we spend some time talking about his history and designing and his adventures in paragliding, and then get pretty specific into comp tactics and strategies, and that kind of of thing. So if you're interested in comps or struggling with how to be consistent or do well or you're a veteran or a beginner at comps, I think you'll really enjoy this. So enjoy this talk with Torsten Siegel.
Torsten, it's good to see you. I've seen you a bit lately. We saw each other at nationals in Chelan and then I followed the Superfinal very closely. I was wishing I was I was over there with you guys. It was just too quick a turnaround after the X-House to get back to Switzerland. But you got a lot of days. You only had a couple, I think the last day and one day in the beginning. And that's pretty remarkable for flying in the Rhine Valley. How were the conditions and what was it like?
So it was a very special life to say. I've been now four times in Descentis and this was the strongest conditions I've ever flown there.
But you said no accidents. Accidents? Nobody had any trouble. Were there some close calls or anything? Because I heard a few, few people that I follow on Instagram said it was pretty rough. People just decided to land one day and just, okay, that's too much.
Yeah, we had even like Michael Siegel, World Cup winner, on the third task. He was, uh, in a pretty nasty galley something where the wind was blowing in, together with Tim Bollinger, and Tim got just blown up like crazy. And then Michael definitely decided, "No, this is too much," and he landed, which I, yeah, definitely in this situation, I flew a little bit more outside, but definitely some spots where it was too much and where it was not so nice to fly. Sometimes when you are high, you don't feel it; sometimes you don't catch turtles, you're coming low there or whatever. So it's a very unique area, and there are always some surprises around some corners.
And this year we had a lot, but like you say, luckily we had no accident or nothing, but this is quite unique for a competition like this, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, and it's, uh, did I read that it was the first Superfinal that's been done in proper mountains? Is that correct, um?
Correct, yeah. I was also surprised because I guess I flew more or less all despite one, and it was always the dream from Xavier Puello, also the former World Cup chief who unfortunately died then during flying, like I think it's like 7-8 years ago. It was always his dream to have the Superfinal in the Alps, and now with the COVID situation and all the messed up events and World Cup calendar, it finally happened. And therefore, we are even more happy that it was so successful, that we had so many cars, insane racing, and I think it was the most sportive event ever when it comes to competition and the pilots I
Hope they can keep doing that. I mean, it's what a spectacular the pictures are. I mean, the Rhine is, you know, I've flown there a bunch with all the races, the X-Alps and stuff, and I mean, like you said, it does bite. There are some snakes that crawl out of the steep mountains there, but it's beautiful, and what an awesome place to race, um...
I don't agree, because normally what I, what I would say, it's perfect to fly with your friends and enjoy it.
Not great for racing, racing.
With hundred people on the ridge, it's definitely not something you say, "Oh, it's so nice, look at the glacier," and get so hot. Oh, please, go on my way. Hold on, hold
on It's
too tight. It's too tight. I need some space.
So, you know, it's a, yeah, I repeat myself, but it's a unique place. And when the conditions with a high cloud base and everything, what we had a few days, then it's really outstanding. And I think also pretty safe to fly. But it can be different. For me, the most sketchy thing is always when you are in these very rough conditions and then suddenly it's 20-30 pilots you just try in the D-side in the D-turbo, You try to climb proper and the wing pushes you out, and you know what happens with the others too. So this is the situation: when you are with 2-3 pilots, I feel pretty comfortable, but with a lot of pilots in these conditions, this is something
I'd rather do this than in Brazil or somewhere else.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. How long have you been flying comps? Oof.
I think it was right after the Second World War. It was.
Close to this though. I think I started in 94.
With the
DHV Junior Challenge.
And then something, 96, the first World Cup. And since 99, I'm in the German nation.
That's 27 years, Torsten. Flying cops, I think. I
think you're counting wrong. It must be seven years.
Well, you keep yourself extremely fit. That must help. What is your exercise regime? What do you do to stay fit?
During COVID, it was drinking beer.
It's worked out very well for you. No, it didn't work. After three months, I recognized it. You got to do some setups. I had to do something different.
And then, you know, mainly it's these classic things. We do some endurance sports, and I have some Italian friends here. We do, in Toronto, we do a lot of street biking. So on the weekends or during the week, we go like 80, 100Ks, and like old man style. And then, uh, yeah, it's mainly I, I try to go a little bit in the gym, in the boxing gym with the kids. I have two kids; they are like six and eight now, and they, uh, they really enjoy the kickboxing a little bit, so we are doing this together and, more or less, all the, yeah, I try to make each day some sports instead of drinking beer. Sometimes I drink beer, no wonder.
You're such a good pilot.
Yes, it's getting, it's getting, uh, harder when you're getting older.
Sure, sure, sure. Um, will you get your kids into flying?
Good question. So, I flew with them already, um, for sure, and they—they love it. And I think my little one, my girl, she's six years old, she's super adventurous, and she always blames me that and I never fly proper with her. So now when we have the possibility to travel now, I definitely like to fly with her. But honestly, I'm also happy if they do kitesurfing or some other things. Something a little
less gravity-related.
I don't like that they become a test pilot like me.
Right. When
they're doing I Can Fly, I'm happy. And for sure, if they're interested, I will introduce them to the sport. Um, but I leave it also open. I, I think it's definitely a kind of sport, uh, which you should choose by yourself, and I don't like to push them into this because this is something they have to find out by their own
Yeah, do you how long it was? Was Jen your introduction to being a test pilot and working in that in the industry, or did you work before with somebody else, oh?
Yeah, way before, um, so actually when I was studying mechanical engineering, I started to fly in the German league. And during this time, uh, Up Paragliders was, was very strong. They had from Daichi Kosho, from the Japanese, they had some support, and they, uh, they were thinking about big paragliding, yeah, like, like playing golf, something like this. So they spent a lot of money for this, and I had a lot of new pilots, and I was, I became a team pilot for Up. I think this was in '96, something. And then when I have to write my bachelor thesis, I asked Up if they are interested, and it is, "Yeah, we can do something together." So they had also another engineer, so my bachelor thesis was about measuring performance of paragliders in a vehicle on a
runway. So it was quite interesting, but I failed also, but nevertheless, I got a good diploma for this, so everyone was really happy. And with this, I was, after this, I was very close to UP, and they asked me if I'm interested. They did some test pilots, and just for beginner wings, said everything, and I said, "Yeah, as long as I'm studying, I can do this." And then actually, I got into this; I was starting there as a test pilot, competition pilot with the third part-time, and then when I finished studying, um, I was thinking about, "Yeah, let's do a year or something like this," and then get a real job were
you in Germany at the time, I
was in germany yeah yeah I was studying in Heilbronn, that's near Stuttgart, in South Germany, and then I moved to the Lake of Constance, that's at the border to Switzerland, Austria, and Germany, and yeah, and now I'm 52 and doing this still, so yeah, I was like, I think 15 years with UT, then together with Stefan Stiegler, who was the main designer, and so we worked together, and then I was for five years at swing, oh okay, um parapsleiders, and now nearly 10 years for chin, so in April, next April, I worked 10 years for chin, yeah
And is that, is that your 100 job?
Um, I mean, in other words, do you have other do?
You have other sources of
Yeah, at the beginning, you can imagine, it's—it's really a bad job because everyone, everyone thinks, "Damn, it, he can fly, so he has fun, and it's his hobby, so why should we pay him?" No, it's definitely not very well paid. And so, I was at the beginning, I was writing quite a lot for where we had more—the German, we had the flying flight magazine and THV, and I was working also as a photographer for a local newspaper. So I, I had quite a lot of side incomes there because it was necessary. And then, let's say, when I established myself more and more as a designer, then the income became better and also the time was less for doing other things.
So now I would say like 90 % of my work is for gym gliders and I'm doing a little bit besides some jobs. And
is most of that role with Jen now design or is there still a lot of test pilot and stuff involved? And maybe for the audience, you know, I don't know. A lot of people don't really know what test pilot means. What is it? What do you do? What does it involve? And how do you do it in Toronto?
Toronto, it's the thing I'm traveling a lot. This is for sure. I'm in Toronto because my wife, she works here. and our kids are going to school. So it's, you see, as a paragliding pilot, it's pretty hard to feed your family. So therefore, your wife needs a good job.
True, true, true, true. Yes. No, you have to balance things in a way, especially when you have family. It's for sure easier when you're single, single, and uh, just can do what you want because then you're much more flexible. But yeah, well, it's—I'm quite happy to have my, my two kids and my, my base here. But yeah, like, like you mentioned, so in Toronto, we do sometimes a little bit of towering and there's some soaring areas, but it's definitely no reason to fly here. So most of the time, um, I think about to go to Soldic City or when we met in Chilean, I was there one week earlier because you know the weather nearly always goes there despite the fires this year or whatever. So what we are looking for is when we are making the test sessions to go in some areas where we are 99 % sure that we can fly the whole week or for two weeks.
So areas like Valladolid, Bravo, Salt Lake City, Chilean and things like this where you have a high predictor.
Are you testing the full range of gin, or are you mostly just testing the comp end of things or everything?
It's more or less depending on the projects and priorities we have and how it goes.
So for sure, gin is our main designer. He's coming up with all the ideas, and I support him with this. And then, once we agree on the projects, then we split it, sometimes that I focus on one of the wings and the sizes and he on the other, but mainly then also we join each other again in order to fly and test it.
How much time do you spend in Korea?
Yeah, recently not a lot because, for sure, with the COVID situation and the traveling, it's hard, and I was thinking about now to fly to Korea. They They still have these two weeks quarantine, and we try to find a way that I maybe can skip it. It's still tricky. So we decide now to make the next test session again in the Alps with our team pilots there with Michael Siebel and Tim Bollinger.
But yeah, normally I'm like four times in Korea. Korea, it's mainly spring and autumn time because in summer you have the rainy season and winter is pretty cold, similar like Canada. So in this case, we meet somewhere else. We meet quite often in Valladolid, Mexico over winter, so something from December to February. And then March starts in Korea again. and then the summertime is quite often in the alps
And is your background with mechanical engineering was that real critical for becoming a designer with with paragliding, or is it something you just picked up working with up and over the years? Is it yes?
it's one interesting thing because Because before I studied, my dad, he's a tailor, and he had a company with 60 employees. And when I was a young guy, I don't like to work. I don't like to do anything. And then he said, listen, son, you don't hang around the street. You work now here. And I said, okay, I work there. So I became a tailor, too. So I was like a two-year trainee. And the nice thing is I could make my first flight suits by my own. But when I stopped, it was industrial production of clothing, so this was pretty boring. I said, oh, I will never do this again. But it's very interesting because it came very handy once I started the paragliding business and making wings.
So a lot of the changes I can do myself. And because also, for sure, I had a pretty good understanding when it comes to sewing and producing the wings. So this was quite interesting that it was just by chance that I had this knowledge because I never thought I would use it later for paragliding. And the thing is, in Germany, I think when you study engineering, it's quite intense. And I was there for five years on the high school, on the university, sorry. And the main thing, also, you have some aerodynamic backgrounds and everything, but the main thing is all your technical understanding and the knowledge of this.
And then, I think it's pretty easy to adapt into fields which are very similar, and this is the main thing with aerodynamics also. Designing at Berglade, you have the structural base where mechanical engineering is anyway perfect for this, and you have these aerodynamic components where we have anyway we have some support also from aerodynamic engineers. And for myself, I have for sure the basic knowledge with this and ideas and everything how it goes together. What
Kind of a pilot makes a good test pilot, you know? In other, other words, are you—are you basically—you take a a new design, uh, you know, third edition of the XXX, whatever it is, and you take it up. Are you just stalling it like crazy? Are you spinning it? I mean, are you doing all the kind of civil testing, or or or what? What kind of or are you just flying it around and kind of getting a feel? Yeah.
um let's say in the past it was more like this that it was it's always pretty hard to pass the certification. Meanwhile, I have to say since I worked for Chin and even before, the designs and the knowledge is so advanced that normally the wings, they don't make big problems. Like we had it in the past, that you had deep stall, that you had nasty shooting, that the wing was super dynamic and everything. All these things are quite rare. For sure, You can have some surprises with sudden re-openings or whatever, but it's mainly now when, when, when we are introducing new designs or making new designs. At the beginning, it's definitely more the flying in general, is the wing performing in the way, is the handling like you like to have it, and
And what's now our main point, since a few years, is it also suitable for the target group? So is it easy to fly? Is it something what you like, but you don't feel stressed out and everything?
So it's for sure in the higher classes, the performance is something, but performance is also nothing without control. role, and I think this was also when you think about boom 11, for example. I think this was a pretty good performing wing, but for a lot of pilots, too demanding, or they felt too nervous. Pilots may have enough skills, and me, honestly, I love it because it gives you a lot of feedback, and it was interesting to fly, but you need a lot of time to understand wing and everything, and I... I think this is something what we are now more aware that most of the pilots, they don't have so much time to fly and they like to have something where they just jump on and say, yeah, that's easy.
I'm confident with the wing and everything and there's not much to learn and to understand and get into it. So, I think this is one of our main points for future designs: to make performance very accessible for the pilot group and order that it feels from the beginning very confident with a nice and solid drill, I
Don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, just because we have with other people on the show in the past with the whole open class and CCC, and you know, the Peter Heater stuff, and that led to all that. But do you wish the industry was going in any kind of a different direction than what it is right now? I mean, it seems like the CCC class is, is working, working quite well. But do you wish, for example, that we'd done the Robbie Whittall stick with the cereal class and everybody's kind of wearing the same shoes? How do you feel about all that?
Yeah, I think I'm quite happy with the current development because I think the cereal class, when we had it for one or two years, it showed these big drawbacks when it comes to control the wing to see if it's really the same wing that everyone is flying in. When you ever try to measure a wing and find out differences, immediately you figure out how frustrating this is. And it gives for sure the people as soon as they have a better performing wing, there are always some doubts. Yes, of course, Is he flying a serial wing, or did he make his own wing with some thinner profiles, which nobody can check, or with some whatever with some special attention? So you have always these kind of thoughts in the mind of people, and I think it's like the paragliding sport is so small; it's not like a big industry like a Formula One, where you have some engineers who are controlling the cars afterwards and checking everything if it's according to the rules.
It's like Like you have to see in Switzerland, they were checking the wings in the evening at the cable car station until 11 o'clock and just try to get some main measurements to see if everything is working well. But we are such a small community, so I thought that was the wrong way, because this should be held for the normal, for the leisure pilots and some kind of sport pilots. But with the CCC and the regulations we have, we have a kind of freedom of design, but we are limiting the most dangerous parts. In the past, it was extreme full-speed flying with trippers and everything.
So I think it's all on a pretty good way currently. And sometimes we wish a little bit more freedom with the design, but then also, We are doing some kind of crazy things or wings, which are borderline, and then you're happy again that you don't have to fly this in a competition that you can go back to your normal wing. Because I remember the open glass times in the past, when you come up with a new prototype and it was so sketchy to fly. Did you say that the whole competition you couldn't enjoy it because we were just focused on the wing, and you wish you came with your old woman? So, no. And all it is, I think we have a nice margin of safety, and also when you speak to all the pilots, I think they're pretty happy with the situation.
How did you get into flying 30 years ago?
Yeah, it was, uh, actually the... I think it all started with my dad, because he was, as he was in the German army, he was a pilot there. But then, when his dad died, he had to take over the company, so the business, but he was a lot on the airfield. He became a same plane pilot, so as kids, we were hanging around a lot with these strange guys on the airfield, and it was super interesting because it was big playground and everything, but still like, yeah, flying, flying gliders, sail places, a little bit different, and then we have the called the Wasserkuppe. So this is a mountain in Fulda, Frankfurt.
They did the first gliding. And then one day my brother came and said, yeah, Torsten, I saw something strange. They are jumping some parachutes down the mountain. Whatever, we have to look at this. And I said, oh, that sounds like fun. So yeah, I went up with my brother and we had a look. And yeah, to say, yeah, just we have to try this. We signed up for a course, and then I was running down the hill like crazy. I had so much fun. I was—I wasn't really flying. My first flight here, it was always like flying like 10 seconds, 15 seconds, and then 30 seconds, new record, and everything. So I was very, very ambitious during this time because it was just a kind of flat hill, and this is how everything, everything started.
And let's say it was these, I think I fell in love from the first time, was these running and suddenly these there, lifting your legs and flying, it was like these childhood dreams a little bit, which came true. And then it was for half a year, it was a little bit, I got frustrated with the performance because you're always like going through the bushes, Don't reach the landing field and everything, and then I got a little bit my fill, but then the next generation of wings arrived and I jumped immediately from my schooling to, uh, in the settings, I guess it was, yeah. And then suddenly you could glide.
This was then again was like, wow. And then you have your first travel and everything, and yeah. It then changed my life, I have to say, because I was definitely kind of addicted. Was somehow also what I was missing in my whole life. I was always looking for something what I can do. I was not so into surfing, and then suddenly, a flying seems to be something. Yeah, this is, this is really super special. So I try also to study in the south of Germany to be able to be closer to the mountains, and then it became a huge part of my life until today. Wow,
Has there, there been in that kind of arc of your career and test piloting comps and that kind of thing? If there been, you know, big lulls in your passion, or has it just been, you know, it's been pretty, pretty exciting from the beginning?
It's, I have to say, it was pretty exciting from the beginning. There were two things, what I have to say as a one was, for sure, the money at the beginning where you... You have to say, yeah, and I was studying so long. And also my dad asked me a few times, son, don't you like to have a real job now?
And I said, no, but if you can lend me some money, I'll really pay it back. So it's like, you know, when you're 26, 28 and still begging for money or something like this.
So this was something a few times that I had to do now and do something serious and get a real job. and have this as a hobby and whatever. But yeah, it never happened. But this was definitely a few times that even I was writing to some companies and job applications, but they didn't like me, so I was stuck with the drag line. And then it's for sure, all these first times, let's say I never had a big accident. Actually, I never broke any bone or whatever, so I'm super lucky. But I have to say, I had one, two, three close calls where I have to say, "Okay, this was just super lucky." Now, it was just by—it's just by chance I'm still walking away.
I could be in a wheelchair, I could be dead, or whatever. So these are also the things I had one where I was for—for one year I was thinking about, was it worse to take this risk or not? Um, and then Also, for sure, when some of your best friends are dying, these are the—these are the—these—these very sad moments where you think, "God damn it, it's—yeah, flying is nice, but is it this competition flying? This testing you see wouldn't be high can fly, it wouldn't be this enough, just go up somewhere or have a decent thermal flight. Must to be, is it worth to be? I don't even—I'm extreme, but is it worth to go so far and and risk your life?
And because, yeah, when you see what happens to to all of the friends, and meanwhile it's—it's, I have to say, even too many, which I know who where we always say, 'I will always remember you,' and then you after 20 years, I forgot even the names. So it's—it's the thing Yeah, where you always have to question yourself, and it's something you have to think about if you like to take this risk or not, but it's there for sure. Many times where you have doubts, and I think it's good to question yourself to be not blind and always have this awareness that things can happen to you, and do you like to do this or not?
And this will be something, I think, until the end of my career, this will be rising and falling, and I will see how I handle this.
Is there, has there been anything concrete you've changed about the style or the approach, or something you've done with your flying over the years? You know, for example, when you had kids, or is there anything you're doing that, um, now in terms of being safer or taking less risk that maybe you wish you would have earlier, or is it just kind of a natural progression of I
think it's more natural progression. The main thing is and the other kids, or my my relations never change my thoughts that you have to, you need to be honest to yourself and check if you like to take the risk and this. This is more of a personal thing. I don't take my family into account for this because, anyway, I like to live also. I'm not a dead seeker. I like to play suicide games or whatever. So it's something I think about a lot. And like you mentioned, it's a natural thing.
When you start, for example, racing in the World Cup, It's quite funny; like, 10 minutes before the race starts, I always think, "Do I really like it?" And then, when the race starts, it's like, "Yeah, it's so fun." So the main thing is, I know why I'm doing this because it's for 3-4 hours—how long the race takes—you're focused on one specific thing, and this is so nice. All the other things are gone; it's just about flying, lying, and observing because he was the best and dive into something and forget about the rest of your life. When you're popping out, suddenly the bubble bursts.
What happened?
especially
In Chelan, when you're going, oh, dust devil, dust
devil
So, these... this is saying, I think this makes paragliding also so unique, especially as a competition flying, because it's a short circle of life. You see, it's like this race start and to the end, and you have all these up and down, "Oh no, I'm bombing out," "Oh, I catch a terminal," "I'm so lucky." So these emotional feelings what you have, and you miss the start, you know? It's like, like all these things from what happened in your life, you see how it's there within four hours. It's all
kind of compressed into this one experience. It's compressed, yeah. And you
can learn also a lot about your other life, about this, isn't it? That you say, yeah, well, I'm low now.
So this is something where you, yeah, I think I'm a very patient person. And also in real life, there are not many things which are hitting me now anymore.
because paragliding
Is so brutal on you.
it teaches
you a lot of patience, it
Is like this, and also you cannot change it. When you miss the trouble, you can cry, you can, you can swear, but it's not changing, you know? It's just nature. The trouble is gone, so you have to be patient. So you're landing, or you try something else; maybe it works, maybe not. So this is something I think many times we are making jokes about this, especially the final glide. You see when you have glide ratio 14, it's like, how can I make it? Can I not make it? It's excitement.
Then what's the third task when we are all like 200 meters in front of goal?
After 12K gliding, it's like, oh, no. But anyway, you have to smile again. You can be pissed off for a minute, but it won't change it, is it? So yeah, I think this is the beauty about it.
I've got a bunch of very specific comp questions that we'll get to in a bit, but one of the things I we just I just recorded another show, uh, with Wally down in Australia a couple days ago. We were talking about comps, um, you know, one of the things that is so striking about it, and I guess it's, it's what makes it so wonderful, and also, like you said, it can also be so brutal. You know, you look at the results from one comp to another other, and there's always the, there are certainly a group of pilots who are very consistent, uh, and consistently do well, but even them, uh, you know, you, you'll look at the, you'll look at the end results and see someone like Charles Cazzo, who's just a terrific comp pilot, you know, in Serbia, he was almost last, you know, and it happens to everybody, you know, Duragati, you know, he's won, won the Superfinal twice, and in any given World Cup, he could be down in the 80s, you know, it's just, um, what has your many years of comp experience do you, after a while, does that stuff just not bother you, and it's no big deal because it happens to everybody, or is it still just like, "God darn it," I mean, yeah.
Well, I, I think I had one, one nature experience. This was when we had the World Cup in Sierra Nevada, Spain, and then we flew from the Sierra Nevada, we flew to the beach and it was like literally, well, yeah, I think at five, five and a half thousand meters and then we had a final flight about one hour to the beach. And... Magic! It was definitely magic but I didn't make it because there was one small hill in front of the beach and honestly Honestly, I couldn't pass it, so I had to go left, and I landed on the beach nearby. And it was a beautiful beach, and all the people were coming and saying, hey, wow, amazing, you are here.
And I was so pissed off and so grumpy and angry and whatever.
And I even don't know why, because I could have a swim, you know, enjoy myself, have a beer, and get ready to go back.
But, yeah, I was grumpy. And then, then I was thinking, when I was driving back and even the next day, I say, "If you are like this when you don't make gold or something like this happens, and this will happen again like you mentioned many times, maybe as either you are accepting this or you, you're quitting the sport. If you cannot take it, then it makes no sense." And this was, I think, since then I'm, but I still, for sure, when you close to have a very good result and you're bombing out or you're short of goal, is like this, "Oh." And then, but honestly, I start laughing about myself now. And so I think, meanwhile, no, I'm like, you say there's also a big difference between
Charles Casso and me, because Charles Casso, I have to say, he's like you mentioned, he's a, he's a very unique pilot and he flies alone and he make definitely his own decisions. He has his own ideas, while I'm not definitely known for this, I, I, I stick with the group. I let the group even work for me, and so if you see, my results are most of the time very constant, but also no top results. This is something, and if all this works out, I became European champion once because it, it was just on the average, it was like the best decisions for the pilot made. But I have to say also that there are a lot of much more unique pilots like Charles, like Chrigel,
Stefan Morgenthaler, for example, and now 20 more, I think, look at Honorin Hamon. So there's a bunch of 15, 20 pilots who fly very special on their own, who don't care care about the group, but it's for sure as you have quite big chance also that to pop out or whatever, and this was the same thing with Charles doing the Superfinal. It was a little bit the same, like you say, like in Serbia, there suddenly his magic was not working anymore because it's just this one small thing which is is missing, and then it's much better to stick with the group because cost any of the possibilities to see you end up there.
But I admire these pilots, and I think these are the real pilots. I think these are the good pilots. But it's not always successful, and this is the thing.
Is that a personality thing, do you think? Or is it, you know, because I don't have nearly the experience that you guys do when it comes to comps, but it's, you know, it's one of these things where I think I would categorize myself in that category of, like you said, like Charlie doing my own thing, but I get penalized for it so much that, you know, I try to go, "No, no, no, this... that's not how you fly comp. You have to have no original thoughts, stick with the gaggle, you know, do your thing," but it's, yeah.
I think it's, it's for sure, it's a personal thing. It's also something what you're looking for, let's say for me, because also since I live in Canada, I fly four or five competitions a year, and to be able to qualify for the German national team, I just can mess up one; more or less the others must be good. So this is something where you fly result oriented, so that means you're looking for a result in the top 10, and with this you cannot take these risks that you mess up like 2-3 comps or whatever, and that is also something what suits you. I think there are a lot of pilots in Berlin, for example, all of these guys also now Switzerland, who is just pushing, and then if it works out he has an awesome result
but also he bombs out here and there and then but you know it became a kind of his style and he is not bothering I have to say when I'm bombing out once, twice, or GLM, I bomb three times out, which is very unusual for me, I have to say. But even I can live with this, but I don't like to have now like four cops. It's a little bit too much.
So, yeah, and normally this kind of balancing, this is the major thing. For example, look, it's perfect, always the winner. these big competitions, there are always these pilots who did the perfect setup between pushing, staying with a group, and choose the best tactical decisions for this competition. But it can be also then, like I say, the next comp, it can be definitely that who bombs out twice and that's it, you see. It's like Like Pierre Remy, who was world champion and won the Superfinal, was also not his comp. You see, it works out for one competition, for the other one, again, not.
But this is the way, yeah, how you have to do now also to win one of the big comps.
Have you seen any kind of theme that's run through when you have a successful comp? comp, uh, if you've been able to kind of tie it to other successful comps and come up with any kind of recipe, uh, okay. This one was, you know, this one was because I had this kind of headspace, or this kind of, you know, I'd exercised this way for a year, or is it just almost random? Yeah,
Yeah, it can be. You see, I was once very successful, then I was completely drunk the night before.
This is common with a lot of people, actually, and
This is, uh, yeah, I had to be a lot about this. I don't like to go in details, but he won all the tasks. Then the next day, where I thought, "Man, he cannot even fly," and then he was, then he was winning the task. So this is something where you can see how special terrified it is, but I also agree, uh, like you say, they are always with more or less the same pilots in front. And what I recognize when I always think now after Switzerland, I have really good performance. Now I should fly a competition. See, as I think also when you're training a lot and doing cross country flying in the Alps, like Connery or Lugardouille, I think this gives you the self-confidence to master all the situations and say, oh, I go there because there's an experiment.
I don't care about the others over there, so this is definitely something I think which
where you can see why they are as good as they are, and this is something I have to say, I'm missing sometimes quite a little bit. And I recognize when I fly a lot that I'm getting really much better confident, especially with the full speed flying near the cliff or all these things, so this helps, but it's for sure no guarantee that you win the next comp. It's not like when you're good in 100m running and you make it in 10 seconds, then you're always at this level. At a competition, you can be at this level, but just by chance, you're forming out two times, and you end up on the sixth. So there's more or less no guarantee compared to other sports.
It's a totally different game, isn't it? It's the kind you you need a kind of luck in
situations. When you think about your X-Alps flying, for example, it's always this magic, this one day where you just can push ahead, isn't it? And the other, suddenly, they have the bad weather and you get stuck. He's just surfing the wave with the good weather to the end. And you guys, you are like... Slapping it out. Slapping it out. And you're struggling. and yeah this is the but it's let's say it's it's the decisions but also yeah we need much more luck compared to other sports oh it's a it's a bigger factor right now
When you're in a comp, do you have any kind of mantras? Do you have any kind of, uh, you know, focus things or non-focus things? Do you try to get kind of like, let your subconscious do it all and just look around and enjoy the day? You know, do you try to get into kind of a flow state? Are you trying to really strategize? And, and if any of those things, are there any kind of things that you do where, "Hey man, wake up," or "Hey, let's have some fun," or "Let's laugh," or any of those, any kind of thing like that? Yeah.
I laugh too much. I don't have to remember this. The main thing is what I always figured out because because for sure, with my job and pilots around, nobody knew Boom 12 or especially also the competition things we have. So I'm quite often distracted. So you talk a lot with other pilots about stuff or whatever. And I always, each morning when I wake up, I say, okay, at least now have a look at the map where you're flying and have a look where the goal is. You know how this goes. because this is something I'm aware of when I'm flying I thought we had to go there but now we're going there so it's like it's definitely nice to be focused for like 15 minutes
be mentally prepared for the task where to fly where can be the tricky parts, have some alternative routes or whatever so I have to say I'm missing this, I'm aware of this, but it's like, I like to goof around a lot and make a lot of jokes, and I sometimes I'm not serious enough. That's probably good. I don't
know, it's probably good. It's
Good in some ways, but something is also bothers me because I thought that if you—if you would at one look at the map to see where the goal is, you would approach it different, you see? But now you're like, "There must be somewhere around here," you're looking. It's like, "Yeah, well, it must be this field or whatever." So it's like, these—these are for sure a few things where I try to work on myself, but otherwise, yeah, like I say, it's—it's so many years where I'm doing this, and I—I see all these—these boys who are extreme focused, who are stressed out or whatever, and I try to—to do it in a way that I have the joy.
be ambitious enough and still get good results and everything, just try to balance it.
You mentioned Martin Scheele, the kind of weather guru and Swiss team coach and stuff. When I go to a comp, I don't pay attention at all to the weather. I listen to whoever's giving a weather briefing in the morning, that's about it. Do you put much energy into weather at a comp?
I think for descendants, It's worth us to listen, sure, because especially as you have a lot of different considerations, I think in Chile, okay, the wind is coming from the west, right? Yeah, awesome, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, medians to moderate, strong, or whatever. So, I, I think when you fly somewhere in the flats, or the same thing when you fly for something, or whatever, so the most interesting thing there is at the basics a little bit, but it's also, we fly in such
let's say unique small situations sometimes where it's more addressing, yeah, what is the group doing, or where is now better to jump and then have a transition in a different way, so I think the overall data is not, I agree with you, I don't think it's so important many times, but But in the centers and in the Alps, in some situations, definitely, it can be some technical decisions, especially when you know when development comes, you just can't go low. This was at a second task. I was very conservative. And this was something if I would trust more there to forecast or would be more aware of this, then, yeah, you just go direct and push the development to go and things like this.
So I think, uh, you have to to see where you're flying
Torsten, do you pay any attention when you're at a comp? Do you pay attention to who's who, or is everybody just information? Will you, in other words, will you put more weight on an Honor and or Julian or Steven Lace, or you know, somebody who knows, or maybe somebody that flies similar to you? Is it, is it? Do you, do you follow people that are more your style, maybe?
Correct, yeah. I don't fly as if there's just... I don't like to follow him because he's better than Tim. I try to avoid them, right? No, but it's... it's, uh, it's for sure, uh, because like I mentioned it, as as I, um, more stick to the group and everything, but you like to stick to the right people, um, where you are, where that they, uh, that they still, still push and still go. So sometimes you are aware, oh now we have a really nice group of 5-6 pilots with strong pilots. This is actually what I love most because then even with the thermals you're working together, you're pushing together.
This is very nice to fly, I have to say. So I
definitely take care or like to be in a group with pilots who fly very constant. Um, but also fast. This is something where I have a lot of, a lot of fun, and which, which works for my flying style. What advice?
Would you give to a newer comp pilot, somebody kind of getting into the game, maybe maybe go into their first, you know, so they've done a few lower-level comps, but they're going to their first World Cup? We've got a whole big U.S. squad going over to Turkey in a few days, and a bunch of them, I think, are—it's their first World Cup ever.
as
I, I think main thing is to enjoy it. This is something I see a lot of newcomers; they are somewhat too ambitious, they are, they are stressed out, whatever. To just be relaxed and and to be, be happy to do this, um, because also even if it's a World Cup or whatever, you, you should be honest with your, with your flying skills and what you can do and how much you like to push and everything. So this should be the same at each competition and then proceeding from there or going further. Also what I can see with a lot of pilots that they jump too early to the competition gliders I think because still
when you fly with the with the Seno or Leopard or the two-liner D-Wings, I think it's really worth to fly them until you're 100 % confident. A lot of racing, full-speed bar or whatever, because this will be something which is for sure more demanding than on the C-Wings. And there you can see that people then get hesitant to fly them full-speed and to use the full potential of the wing. So they always see these transitions, these gliding, oh, I'm losing there. But they never see how much they're losing by not flying full speed, by not going really close to the cliff, jumping into the lead thermal, flying aggressive,
turning tight and everything. So a few times I was even in Switzerland, I went crazy when the pilots are turning so wide, I said, come on, we can go all in the tight turn and everything. thing, so um, G Land was the same thing you say. Yeah, they are definitely afraid to bank it higher, or even, you know, you should feel the spin when it's coming slightly, and you can even play with this or whatever. So this is something to be 100% confident with the thing, and you have the skills to fly this. I think this is something what most of the pilots, uh, I
would say, "Don't have but they, it would be better if they stay a little bit longer on the lower wings to get all these skills to fly at 110% even and add a lot of maybe even front wheels and fly footstools with this. And then with this experience, jumping to a CCC wing, I think it would make them better pilots because I think they jump too early and then they are always, they rise up to a certain level. But then I'm also afraid sometimes when I fly with these wings, which is a good thing. But they're also trying to train to get over this, to fly at 100%. But it takes a lot of energy and time. And I think they never reach to fly these wings to the
top performance.
How does the FTV scoring and lead points, I mean, there's all the cliche. I'm kind of looking for something specific. How does that change your strategy? Do you have any kind of systems, you know, if you blow the first day or I don't, you know, any kind of, any kind of just ways that you approach that? Um, yeah.
Yeah, it's—it's something you see with my flying. Before FTB, I was always kind of pretty good because I try always to fly constant and try to avoid to have a bump out or something like this. With the FTB, I have to say, now I definitely—I like it also, and I think it's fair for all the pilots who are doing elite work or whatever, you have a high chance to come out
And I always try to bring it in my strategy, but I always fail because I make a lot of stupid mistake, and then I have anyway this card. So it's, it's somewhere somehow it's, and it happened quite often that I even start with this card in the first task. I don't know why, and then I have to fly constant to catch up again. Um, but my dream is to use this in a certain situation where I have a realistic chance to do something on my own and try it, and if it works out, yeah. If not, I have this card. It's always my dream, but it's always like, it's quite rare that I, that I can use it in the way how it's designed for.
I just have to use it by, by random factors, Torsten.
I got a question that came in when we were going to do this as kind of a community podcast with you and Josh and Manuel out of Chelan, and we just didn't get an opportunity because it went into party mode there pretty quick on that last, last, last day. But I put out on the group, uh, on our Telegram thing, if anybody had any questions, and one came through that I wanted to ask you. It's, what recommendations do you have for C-class pilots and comps dominated by comp gliders who want to fly safe and make the most of the opportunity to fly and learn from the most more experienced pilot on hotter wings? So let me translate that a little bit. I think what this pilot's saying is, you know, "Know, if I'm on a C-wing, I get dropped by the C guys, the C, the comp guys, really fast." Um, and what we learned—I wasn't there, I don't know if you were—but for the Ozone, you know, when everybody was on the Serial class, you know, it was all the—it was all the names that you would expect.
flying the C-gliders, who still, you know, crushed everybody else, so I think that was really good for the normal C-class pilot to see. Okay, well, it's not just the wing, it's—it's obviously skill. Uh, that's—that's the big tell here. But yeah, I think they're saying, you know, how do I learn from the comp pilots when I can't keep up with them?
Yeah, this goes more together, but I mentioned before that you, um, even with the C glider, you should be able to push it to 100. The main thing is like staying in bar, uh, don't release too early. Learn, learn all these things. It's like, like many times you hear, yeah, I couldn't fly full speed because there are two centimeters of the accelerator weight missing. Yeah, well, change it now. Yeah, change it. I think these are all these things to, I think a pilot is always aware. You should be aware of what's missing and where your skills are limited, isn't it? And where you are afraid of. And then on these points, you have to work.
You have to see, okay? The others are doing it definitely better. They are, they are much more banking with the things. They're able to, to even slightly stall it, to fly it slightly negative. They can fly it very aggressive. They can immediately know they are jumping into the lee side without being hesitated or whatever. So it's all these quick, quick decisions, reacting fast, and definitely in a way what you can learn to fly aggressive, which means not to others, more in a way that, that you always immediately pushing, going and Even I had a friend, unfortunately he died also, but he mentioned a competition without a big collapse.
You didn't push about it, you didn't push too much because it's something, it shows that you are—that you are a chicken somewhere because this shows you the limit, isn't it? I, I don't totally agree to this, but it's, uh, it's for sure something we all know about. Oh, now it's trouble that I, I'd rather go out or fly a little bit slower, but, uh, you will never learn this, how stable your wing can be if you don't push further. And this is good thing, if you make a SIV with your wing, especially learn that the front collapses, the side collapses, whatever, then you are good trained. And then I also think when you are flying like in Chile and you fly full speed and you get a frontal, it's not a big thing if you react very fast. So you should not be afraid to get this and you should get a little bit used to this because then you can fly the wing to 100%.
And I think this is the big advantage when we as CCC competition pilots stepping back on the ceilings wings, because they are fast, so easy to fly, and so safe that we don't mind if we have frontal collapses or side collapses, because you're just stopping it, continuing, and they are not as fast as the CCC wings and everything, so this is the thing, and this is what you can learn about this, about don't jump to a D-wing, definitely be 100 % confident to to fly this wing on a maximum with a lot of speed and be confident with this glider. We had it once during a gin white open.
It was really impressive. There was, I think, it was a Slovenian pilot on a B glider from 777 or something like this, And he was flying so aggressive with his wing, and he was passing out all the other pilots who were on the C-wings or even D-wings, because when they're coming on the ridge, you see like 500 meters before rather slow down a little bit. Can, can be bumpy, and this guy just come in from the speed, you know, hitting into the turbo, climbing and everything. For sure, he had another performance like the the others, but with his flying skills and flying the swing on the on the absolutely maximum what he can do, he was better than the others, and this was very impressive.
You see, also, this is the thing I often think: if pilots fly with an easier wing, they could perform better. Yeah, but they always, everyone is just looking on the on the gliding, isn't it? You know, you climb together and then you're gliding and then like, oh, now he's better. Yeah, I need to swing, I need to swing, because then I would be the same. You, you see, it's like, but you don't see, you see all the other things, uh, what what I mentioned, I
mean when you're in a place, I mean we saw it in Chelan, didn't we? Over and over, Colin Rathbun flying his delta, you couldn't shake them all day, even in the long tasks, you know. And there were several people on Alpinas that were just, you turn around and there they were, there they were, you know. I mean, the only time you really, you know, that the the advantage was was very noticeable is when we were pushing wind, you know. But when you're there's no wind or going downwind, you know, it's pretty hard to shake those guys, you know. And they're, yeah, I
know, I know these guys on the was on the left side and I was pushing, pushing, you know, and I said I shouldn't get away from this guy. Yeah, they're fast. The lever is fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's I, I think this is it. And you, you should have have the fun and the joy, and even if you have this disadvantage, then in some situations you should also be aware of the advantages. What, what you have that if you are confident with the thing that you fly something which is pretty safe and everything, but it's, it's very interesting that the pilots, most of the pilots only focus on the, on the gliding and then it's like, yeah, I had no chance and now I need a better week because then I can catch up with them and then end up flying the same, but it's not like this.
Torsten, we'll wrap things up here pretty soon because I want to be, uh, thinking about your time. I know you got a bunch of stuff going on there, but I'm going to ask you a few kind of rapid-fire questions here at the end. You don't have to answer them fast; they're just, you know, just the kind of fun ones. Um, first one: have you had any kind of aha moments recently in your flying career? You've been at this a long time, but... But is there any kind of a, wow, that really helped or that was really cool or that was something you didn't really put much weight into in the past?
Yeah, honestly, it was when Mark, a friend of mine here in Ontario, because he was sick and tired to see the clouds and we have no mountains here, so he bought himself a winch, an electronic winch to town sale. And one day he asked me, I told him, you have to come, it's really cool. and I said, yeah, okay, well, I'll join you because when there's COVID, I've locked down since half the year and I didn't fly a long time. So I'm definitely looking forward to this. And then it was also, he was really brave. He downed it three times. And the third time then, I was like, yeah, I released a little bit earlier because I think this field was working and it was like this classical Brazilian way, Uh, like 30 meters over the field.
Yeah, I have it. I have a zero zero zero zero zero zero five, you know? And then it starts to work and forever, and then I ended up making short at three thousand meters on the cloud base. Um, and we are here in Ontario. We are full of beta psi, and it was like, you see, it was like these magic things about flying, like these I'm like, and it was fucking cold.
But it was so, I was like, this was this feeling again, which I had when I was a a young boy, just to see this again, you know, to to to be in the elements. And then I was, I was with our new, uh, he had weaving, so so nothing spectacular, just like cruising of 60 kilometers, make a big big round landing there again. And this was like this thing where this aha moment was like, yeah, I know why I'm doing this because it's it's awesome, it's very, it's something. What they are, living four million people here in Toronto, and there's just a bunch of of five or ten people who are doing this, and that's
Crazy, isn't it? That's great. It is.
It's really, it's still, yeah.
That's cool. Uh, funniest thing you've ever seen in flying recently, or yeah, ever?
That's gonna... that might take you a while to think about it. We could move. There's a lot of funny ways, but I know you like to joke, so yeah.
The most impressive thing was my just wrote when he was flying in the competition, the whole competition backwards, so he decided, "Uh, it's too boring." Yeah, and he had—he had amazing skills, I have to say. And I think he was with the Swiss team in Brazil, and then he was like, "Yeah, it's too boring." So he—he was flying the whole house backwards. Was it's
Hard to wrap my head around. I get it with acro, but it's
pretty because you see it in different ways, so it's, it's a, it's a, whoa, yeah, but he was great for this, yeah, yeah, play
Gravity is one of my favorite Moyes of all time. It's that was such a great movie that he did, those guys did fantastic. Yeah, real loss to the sport. Um, what piece of kit this is interesting considering during your background, what piece of kit gear would you like to see that doesn't exist yet?
glasses for turbos
Really, you'd like to see that?
Interesting, I think just to see this once would be pretty interesting. See, like I have like a 3D animation things how our everything works. Maybe we would be so scared we never fly again. I
know, I think it'd be terrifying
terrifying, but uh, just maybe at the end, you know, at the last day when I said, "Okay, I skipped flying." Now it's the last day and to fly with some goggles, which uh, which allows you to see everything
I hope, I hope they never invent that. I think it'd be the end, but it'd also be a lot of... people say that one. I think, oh god, I mean, the one hand would be terrified, the other hand would be... then everybody'd see the same thing and be
weird, yeah, it would be too easy to fly
Yeah, it'd be too easy to fly, for sure. If you could make one more flight, where would you go?
as the last flight, yeah
and
I don't mean that in a dark way, I mean just, yeah, you know, the world's gonna end tomorrow and you gotta—you can go somewhere to fly. Where would it be?
I, I think because I could never travel there proper, so I had never a good flight there, and they're making like long distance flights, so it would be nice to come back to the point where you started and what
Was the name of that? Was that
Yeah, it's near Fulda, Frankfurt. It's a pretty famous, okay.
Okay, way up north. Yeah, okay, yeah.
yeah in the in the center of germany yeah and And, yeah, I think this will be super exciting to be able to have that big flight. I'm always dreaming of this.
Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot here, considering this is your job. But last question, best and worst wing you've ever flown? Yeah,
best wing for me was the Boobie 11, I have to say. I loved it. Especially when I won the Canadian Nationals. It was like a dream. Everything worked so perfectly and I felt so safe and full speed and everything. I love this thing, I have to say. Especially also with the safety and everything. And the worst thing was like... was the it was like it was from flight designer it was the C3 it was it has like ground air in that this was pretty tough to fly and then it was the
XC77 from UP this was also super nasty it was like this between like shooting and deep stall so the it was like Like, oh my gosh, yeah.
They were no fun. I'm happy that we passed this time.
Yeah, we don't really get bad wings anymore from anybody at Adobe. It's pretty amazing. Yeah, yeah. Torsten, what a pleasure. Thank you so much. I'm glad we were finally able to make this happen. Thank you for your patience. And congratulations at the semifinal. Another great result. Old, uh, you kind of kept crawling up the ranks there, and that was—that was fantastic to watch. But, um, good to have you with us in Chelan, and it sounds like we've got a World Cup there next year, so looking forward to that, yeah.
Yeah, this would be anyway awesome. I'm so happy that they announced World Cup there. Yeah, I think we will have, uh, we will have a lot of fun. I look forward to see you all there again, me.
Too, that's a great place to race. Thanks, Torson. Okay,
Thank you so much, if
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