147. Special Red Bull X-Alps Podcast - Salewa athletes

Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloud-Based Mayhem. And a real special one for you today, as we just had the prologue here at the X-Alps, and the main race kicks off Sunday. I thought it'd be really fun to sit down with my teammates at Salava and do little short snippets on a whole bunch of different topics. How they're feeling, their prep, how they take care of their body during the race, and good story stuff that happens when they're exhausted, stuff from the past races. And so you're going to hear from Paul Guschlbauer. This is his sixth race, and of course he broke his foot skiing back in April, but he charged hard today, and he's feeling pretty good.

We're going to hear from Aaron Durogati. 2013, I think. That's his first, so this is his fifth. And of course he destroyed his knee in 2017, and I think he was second to the top today, and then had a pretty wild ride through the prologue. But man, he was fast on the ground. And then you're going to hear from Marcus Anders. This is his second, and really good race in 2019, until he got hurt kind of late in that race. And then the great, of course, Chrigel Maurer, and his thoughts on going into his seventh with Thomas Theroulot. He's our supporter. He's

our supporter for

the first four, and a whole bunch of great stuff there with the Eagle. And then Simon Oberhauer, who lives right here in Austria, and this will be his third race. And then Tommy Friedrich, the youngest ever in the X-Alps, and got third today in the prologue. So obviously one to watch, really strong, comes from the school who taught Simon Oberhauer and Paul Guschlbauer. I think when Paul competed in his first, and he was pretty young back at the time, Tommy was just nine years old. So this was a blast. We had a lot of fun this afternoon putting this together for you. I thought it would be really fun to drop this right before the race. So enjoy this talk with a whole bunch of the Saliva team, Saliva team X-Alps athletes.

Didn't interview me. I'm also on the Saliva team, but there's plenty here to digest and enjoy. And yeah, the race is Sunday. Hope you're all watching. Enjoy.

Paul, nice racing with you today after it's been a while. Yeah, it's been a while. Good to see you. Good to see you. You had an injury a while back, and people know about this, but how do you feel? How was your leg?

Yeah, I had really super mixed feeling coming to this race. When I broke it pretty much exactly three months ago, I thought, okay, that's it. Yeah. That's it. That's my season. I never broke a bone before. Right. I was like, okay, this is over. But I did everything I could for recovery. Of course, everything I can is like a different way. It's like interesting to say that because you can't do anything. Yeah. At least the first weeks. Right. I got a cast and I was just sitting around. But then after that, I started moving pretty fast again, a little bit faster than the doctors recommended, but it was like just on the edge of too much. And not too early and too late. Or not too late, but in time.

And so, yeah, it worked out. It's now in normal day-to-day life. It's pain-free. And on the climb today, it was first time since four months that I pushed a little bit or three months that I pushed a little bit harder. And it was okay. It's still okay. I'm looking at it now. And it's not swollen really a little bit. It's not a lot of weight compared to the other side. But when

we ran into each other the other day, I hadn't seen you in a while. And you said that you seem to be in a really good headspace for this race. You said, Hey, there's this time, there's no pressure. I don't care. You know, if it, if I think I can get to the Geisberg and we see after that, but if it, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Yeah. Maybe that's kind of a nice place to be.

Yeah. It's, it's definitely a good, good time. I'm having a good time. That's true. I like my glider. I like flying. I like being outside and. Doing what I, what I love. Yeah. So this is the race is what I love. And, and then, um, of course today when the prologue started, I was like, okay, that's racing again. Yeah. I'm full on. Yes. Let's do it. And then, and then obviously, um, um, I messed up the first time also. I wasn't in the front, like, and that's right away was like, okay, I could have done better. Although I could be only happy. We're

so damn

competitive. It's a prologue. I could be only here and be happy to, to be in the position I came in and that I'm here at all. When

you first had the accident and there was the, oh man, I may not be able to do this. What was that like? Cause you know, I told you I had a pretty bad crash two and a half weeks ago. And the first thing that went through my head was, oh, there's no way I'm not going to be ready for the race. And it was kind of a strange sensation on one hand. I just thought, well, who cares? I I'm alive and I'm okay. I'll, you know, recover from this, but it was there. Was it, it was that kind of hard? Yeah. When I remember the situation

right now, I can remember it pretty clear. Yeah. And I knew that I was falling down. I was like thinking, does it hurt? Does it hurt? Yeah, it hurts. It hurts. Um, that would be really bad if it's broken, that would mess up my whole thing. And what, what am I going to do? And I still have those thoughts in my head. And, and honestly, I was never thinking of not doing the race. I was always like, okay, it's still three months. Somehow it will work. I mean, my body always heals fast. So

it's kind of work. Yeah. I'm still young. Yeah. I'm also getting older.

There are super young guys around here that are performing really well. So the pressure is rising for the old guys.

Well, we're going to, we're going to talk later on to Thomas and Simon. And we were laughing on the way up to the photo shoot the other day that their combined age is my age. Yeah. I was, I was at the Red Bull XF's

first time. He was nine years old.

Oh my

God. And

I was young when I did my first race. Yeah, you were young. Yeah. Oh my God. That's ridiculous. Okay. Well, so, um, you had, you had the injury, but I wanted to, one of the questions I wanted to ask you was just how, how did you change your preparation this year? I mean, obviously with the injury, you just had to work around that, but, um, I know you were working with Thomas, Thomas Therilo, um, as I have been as well, but is this your sixth? Sixth time in the race. Yeah. Just wondering if, you know, from the last one, 2019, if there was a big, okay, this is something I'm going to do differently in anything physical, emotional. Well,

there have been so many things that changed. Like I got a kid now. Yeah. That's a big one. So I had, I had to deal with that as well. In general life gets just like life changes when you get older. Sure. Like I'm, I'm getting like growing up a little bit. Um, so slowly, slowly. Of course things changed and what changed, uh, mostly for me or what, what, um, yeah, the general feeling that I have is like, things have to be becoming more professional, like more focused. Okay. Everything I do, I need to, to set a time for it and do it and then do the other things and then like be more organized because there's just too many things I'm doing right now. Just a lot. Um, just a lot. So, so, so I was actually after the last race, I was thinking to be really focused on it, like to, to, to set goals.

Like. Yeah. I was always training and do that and that and that. I never done it before. I was always training. Like I was feeling like, okay, it's a nice day. I go outside. I was always training a lot. I'm not saying I'm not training a lot, but now, um, now I was just thinking, okay, I'm gonna, I want to do more things. I want to take care of my kid. I want to do a film production. I just got a first television show that I produced myself. So I'm kind of proud of it. Yeah. That was really cool. And also a lot of work. And I knew that everything is possible. Yeah. I

knew that everything is possible

to, to do it, but you need to be really structured, like well organized. And, and that's, that was what I did. And I think I, I did really well. I had a very good preparation in the beginning, like the whole, whole first or second half or, um, yeah, second half of 2020, I was already really focusing on the race and everything went really, really well. I did more, um, like force, like with weights. Strength training. I've never done that before. And I've done like really, um, planned endurance training and stuff like that. And then somehow I thought, okay, this is maybe, maybe, maybe something wants to tell me that this is not your style.

Yeah. No. At first I had Corona for three weeks and I got it pretty bad. So it was like out for, of training for more than three weeks. And I thought, okay, that's it now. Okay. This is the break I needed. Now I'm going to. I'm

going to do it. Did

Magdalena get it too? Yeah. The whole family, even George, the little guy. Oh, really? It was really scary. Yeah. But, but it, it, I mean, Magdalena had it like three days and I had it three weeks. So it wasn't different. Yeah. Anyway, after that I thought, okay, now is the time to really focus now. Now I'm going for it. Then it took like three or four weeks after that where it was really good training, like perfect. Everything was running perfectly. And then, uh, just on a small little afternoon training. Where I was already thinking of it, maybe I shouldn't go train anymore because I'm tired. Blah, blah, blah. Weather was bad. Um, I broke my foot then. So

it was like. It's always the last round of the day.

Yeah. What's going on? Like why, why do I try to do it really well? And then it comes totally different. So this was definitely different.

If you found since having George and he's just, cause you know, I had Fallon for years and if you found your approach to flying, has that changed anything? Has it changed your risk? Um, your ability to push? No,

it hasn't. I was always trying to be safe. Yeah. My, all my life I was really trying to avoid situations that are out of control. Yeah. And, um, so I'm still in the same, um, kind of feeling when I fly. Uh, sometimes it happens to me that I think about George, for example, when I fly, which usually doesn't happen because I'm. I'm very focused as soon as I launch and, but it doesn't make a big difference. It actually makes me happy that I, that I can show him that there's other jobs than sitting at an office all the time. And so I do it and it's part of the game that there's a risk compared to other things. Sure.

Have you ever experienced bad pain in any of the races? Anything that's really stopped you or slowed you down because you haven't, you've never had to fold. I don't believe, right. You, you've always gone. Yeah.

Um, I mean, uh, that was, I think this is my biggest, like advantage that I have. Like this, my body's really stable. I hardly get blisters. Um, small ones, but I never, never had big problems with that. Do you have to do anything

special to take care of your feet? Uh,

I use, um, um, it's like a Vaseline cream. Yeah. Like a glide or something. Like a cream. And I, whenever I feel like there's an itching spot, I put it on and this works for me.

Just the, so it's like a lubricant.

Yeah. It's like a lubricant, but it's called, uh, that was, uh, who was that? Uh, one of the, it, it accepts athletes in 2011. Forgot his name. He's also writing in the, um, XC Mac magazine. Hansa. Hansa. Yeah. He was super cool. He came to me before the start. And it's like, here, this cream, this is called brave soldier. Brave soldier. And he gave it to me. He swears by that. Yeah. And I used it since then, every race and it works perfectly. I don't get any blisters. I mean, it could be the shoes, the combination of shoes and cream. Of course, um, Saliva shoes fit really well on my feet. Do you use the,

do you use the kind of lower drop, like the ultra trains or do you use the, the drop lines? Um, a little cushion.

A little one. Yeah. Okay.

So

I use the high shoes.

Um, I feel unstable with it a little bit. I prefer the low ones. Um, and also I try to not hike on the, on the, on the flat anyway. My strategy was, was always, and will always be to hike up straight. I like up to, I need to

get better at that. Last question. Three most critical pieces of gear. When you think about the race, what are the things that, and this could be technology. I mean, obviously we can't do it without the wing. But the, you know, what are the, what are the three things that, man, I gotta have this in my bag or that, that just, this has to work right.

Yeah. I mean, right now, when you ask this question, I can think of like 10 things. All of it. Pretty much everything we carry. All

of it.

Yeah. I mean, it's basically everything we carry makes sense. It's not that we carry things that don't make sense that we have to say that. Um, but, uh, but of course, I mean, everything that makes this kind of racing possible is what we need. It's the shoes to run. I mean, I, we can walk half naked. It would be fun to do it naked actually, but I would always wear shoes. But I would always wear shoes because then I can walk longer without any other thing and you don't really need it. Um, and then of course, backpack with glider, whatever, like all this stuff and the better and lighter it is, the cooler it is. And then something, I mean, I mean, this is really like that thing to get anywhere nowadays. It's just your smartphone.

Yeah. Everything's on there. Everything. Like it's incredible what you can do with it. Yeah. If I think of 2011 or even 13, one of those races, we were like, I was, I was always carrying a paper map and I was always having a hard time imagining how the mountain looks. And now I look on a Google earth or whatever fat map program and I just can see it and I see the trail and I know exactly how it looks like. It's really great.

What you mentioned fat map. What do you use for mapping? I love, we love fat map. It's great. So I love it. The slope angle. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so fat map is, is definitely there. And, but for planning, I use the Suunto app in combination with the watch. This is great. It works perfectly. You can just mark a trail. So you have the navigation

in your, in your watch.

Yeah. And then you just hit the button to share it with your watch and right away you have got the track on the phone, on your watch. Okay. So it's super easy. Yeah. You're not going to have a phone. Yeah. You're just going through this. For every, for every day I go outside and train. If I want to, even if I'm in an area that I know really well, I look at the phone first for two minutes and do whatever I want to do. I plan it, got it on my watch and I, I go for it because as a backup, you're going to suddenly, you miss a turn and you're not, you're not sure you don't have to take your phone out. You just want to look at the watch.

Okay. You don't have to get me up to speed on you.

Yeah. No. And you have in the big, I have to mention that I know we're already talking for a long time, but, but you have all these routes in there that people hike a lot. So it's like it collects the data. So it's all open source. Yeah. Open source. So it has all the, the, the used trails in there, not only the trails. So you can see what people use, which is the, actually the ones that you want to use and not the ones that are getting overgrown or something. Okay. You'll have to show me some of that stuff. I

just got this soon too, so we'll figure that out. Paul, thanks. And best of luck in the race. Of course, I'm excited to be back here with you to do it again. And I can't wait to see Magdalena and George and thanks man. Appreciate it. Yeah.

It's really cool to do it in person. It is. Finally. We've done that. Yes. Finally. Thanks. Thanks bud.

Aaron, fun racing with you today. You had a, you had a little bit of an epic.

Yeah. Uh, it was, um, basically everything which could go wrong. It went. Good

to get you. Good

to get

that out of the way now. It's good to get that out of the way now in the prologue.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a way. Yes. But to see the positive things of today race, it was that, uh, um, since very long, I was not doing a kind of vertical race because for me, the first hike up, it was like a running competition, which in the end it was, and I had really fun and, uh, my knee was good. And I came up there a second. Um, and I felt really strong and I was happy to be second because, uh, I want to have Maxim in front of my, to take off. So everything was really, really nice. And, uh, yeah, the, the bed thing start once, uh, I took off because, um, normally this was for me like the easy part because it's like a normal paragliding competition where I used to be normally good.

Yeah.

And I, I, I mean, it probably was a mix of, uh, today I can say a bit unluck because I took off and, uh, Maxine was terminating on a week thermal. So for me it was clear. Okay. Uh, it's war. It works. Yeah. So I took off and, uh, nothing, it was nothing for me. So Krieger and the two other guys, which took off a minutes after me or something like that, they got this week thermal. And me was the. The one not getting. Just a bad timing. So basically I, I landed a hundred meter or 150 meter below the takeoff. Then I hike up again. I took off again. Then I catch the thermal.

I was in a little gaggle with you. And there I was flying quite good when you left with Nicola. Uh, for me, I was climbing in a good, uh, I had like two and a half meter. I, I was not thinking. It was good to go. That's why I wasn't good to

go. I, yeah, that was, that was a bad note to go. That was stupid.

Yeah. Well, it's stupid. You, you can't say, but the point was above us was building the cloud and I saw it and where you was going, it wasn't cloud. So for me it was a good idea to make maximum altitude as long as keep two meter. And as long, uh, when it becomes less than two, I started. Hmm. And then it was a bit below the cloud I had. So when I arrive on the other side, I was higher than you. I could control you. Yeah. And, but then it happened the next bad thing. So I did a turn point because in my eyes I did it. But actually when I was going to the goal and it was five kilometer, four kilometer on 2000 something meter, they told me that you don't, I don't have done the second turn point.

Right. So then I fly back to the second, I fly back to the third and then I fly in the goal. So basically I did the prologue twice. It's just good practice, Aaron. It's good.

These 50 meter cylinders have got to stop. My God. We'd say that every year to Christoph. And

anyway, I mean, uh, three meters, they say it's out. Really? Yeah. Oh man. That's quite, uh, that's

pretty tight.

Yeah. I'm

not sure what, whatever. Is this a prologue? It doesn't matter. It's, it's, it's the warmup. Um, Aaron, I wanted to ask you, you and I have this habit of spending some time together early on in the race in 2015, you and I were at Ashau and we walked down off the top with some others. And, uh, we had a nice little flight across the end Valley. I don't know if you remember that you've done so many races, but you and I both had a lot of foot problems in 2015. I remember you, there was a video of you like ripping the bottom of your feet off at one point. It was hot. Remember those first three days of the race were really hot and, and just humid. And I'm wondering if there's, if you, from that experience, how do you take care of your feet now? Cause I know it takes people out of the race every time blisters.

I have really bad feet. I really struggled with blisters and I know some people just don't.

Well, I, um, try many, many, many things, uh, in the last years and especially in the last two years. Not only because of the X-Alps, but in general, because I mean, I'm, I like to be in the mountain and I spend a lot of time. Uh, I have some complicated feet because, uh, I was ski racing and, uh, till, till I was 18. And I have, uh, on the behind part of the feet, like an over bone. Yeah. So it's like bunions. Yeah. I mean, who was skiing with, uh, Lange, uh, ski boots knows what I'm talking about.

Yeah, I used to. So because of this, um, uh, I, I get always some problem and I have really to work, uh, to find solution. And in, in the end, the, the best, uh, option I find because I try, of course, the compete, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

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uh,

uh, cream, but basically fat creams, which works, but still not the best for me because once you have a cream, it's fat and you will sweat and you will have more humidity. So what I do, if you will see in the race for me, if we meet, I have Borotalco, this white powder. And I use this every hour. I put this because it's a lubricant. So wait, you take your shoes and socks

off and put it on your feet every hour?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's quite easy. I opened the sock and I put it in. I have like a... It's like a talcum powder? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talcum powder. And

so that keeps your feet dry?

Exactly. But at the same time, it's a lubricant. Okay. Actually in the bike race on dry, they use it on the chain. Okay. Yeah. I've heard about this. It does like a vaseline cream. Yeah. But it's dry. Okay. And that's for me the best solution. And of course, if I can, every one and a half hour doing this, then I'm going without problem. And this is one part. The other part, what I do on shoes, I work on shoes as on the ski boots shoes. So I warm with the guys who does it professionally. I warm the shoes like the ski boots. Hmm. And I make always the mark. The place is always the mark.

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fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation fermentation So, yeah, the combination of all those things give me now quite good result. How many shoes do you have for the race? Yeah, I have many. Yeah. I have really many. I think, I mean, my main shoes are 15 plus I have another 10 shoes. So it's 25 shoes.

Yeah. I tell people this and they go, wait, what? And yeah, that's what you need.

Yeah. So you're switching them out constantly. You're constantly switching them out. Yeah. It depends really on the hike. If I hike steep, if I hike in the flat, on which speed, basically with my knee, I don't plan to run at all. Yeah. But it's a big difference if you go in the flat and you walk and you hike. I use, you walk or you run. So I use different shoes for six, seven kilometer an hour or 10 kilometer an hour. And are you - Yeah.

Those shoes that you got there are really thin. Are you going, is that thin? Are you do, you going with kind of no padding or very little padding with all your shoes and like a no drop shoe or do you have - I

have for vertical, so like steep stuff, I use not cushioning shoes or very little. And for walking in the flat, like six to seven case an hour, I also don't use much cushioning. And if I will have to run, then I use cushioning.

Oh, okay. You

don't switch them out. So, because the point is when you have, when you walk and, and you have your backpack, what happened if you have a very cushioning shoes, like a Hoka, for example, or a Nike,

your feet, it's also going down in the shoes because it's cushioning. And then you will have maybe one or two millimeter moving your feet into the shoes, which can, at least for... So with my problem here behind, it can make this inflammation. If the shoes it's harder, then it stay, your feet stay always on the same level and you don't have this problem. And then you have to find the balance with the knee and the joint. So a little bit cushioning, but not too much. So, and also like the, the stability of your ankle, the more cushioning shoes you have, the less unstable, the less stable. They are normally. So yeah, it's, I really tested.

I have this big luck that I can test those things on the Red Bull training center. And I test many shoes on the, on the, how it calls this, where you walk. The track. Yeah. And then we... Oh, the treadmill. Yeah. The treadmill. And there you can measure how long stay your feet on the, on the ground. How long stay your feet on the ground. How it's the, the rolling, if it's going inside, outside, and you can find out which shoes fit the best for you. It's something very, I mean the shoes, which is good for me might be bad for you. So I think to find the optimum, it's just trying and be really open mind and really try different things.

And what I use also very, quite a lot. It's a five fingers concept. So like...

The toe socks.

Yeah. Yeah. Because... I started using those this year. They're awesome. Because these make a much stronger your feet. You get more stability. Oh,

you're talking about the shoes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The toe socks. I'm not sure that's what they're called. So there's no padding on those. No, it's

just a little Vibram stuff below. Yeah. And you have the finger, the five fingers split it. And it gives you a lot of strength in the feet.

They recommend you to use it as a training instrument. So you don't take them and you go for a 10Ks. You go for 20 minutes, one hour, one and a half and little by little your feet get used. But it was very interesting, this story to tell you that when I have my very bad time, I'm on the knee. I was using in my head was okay. I have knee pain. I should use big cushioning shoes to reduce the impact. And interesting wise, I start to use the five fingers or bar foot shoes basically. And I had less pain. So I was going on the Hawker shoes and having pain and taking a shoes with zero nothing below my feet.

And I was not having pain. And the reason why is that when you walk on a shoes, which doesn't have any cushioning, you will put your front feet first. Yeah. And the amortization start from your feet.

The peaches

you had to properly walk and properly run. And then you will never put your, how it called this bone? Yeah. The heel bone. The heel strong on the ground because you know that you don't have nothing below you. But if you have three centimeters of a sham, infinity react, whatever it is. You walk poorly. You go on your heel and this creates actually more impact than if you walk like the human was built to walk.

Yeah, right. Born to run. That whole concept in that whole book that's been kind of the rage for a while now. But yeah, you sound like there's a book I just read that was 600 pages about how to take care of your feet. And it was interesting because it just said over and over and over again that every single person is different and every race is different. You could get something that really works really well in one race and the next race it doesn't work at all because of humidity, heat, whatever. Yeah. I mean, I heard a very

nice sentence from a very experienced guy who developed the ski shoes from Technica. And he said, like, you have 100 people. And you have 200 different feet. And if you think about it, it's really

true. That's truly true. Yeah. Each one's a little bit different size. And yeah, that's crazy. I wasn't planning on asking you this, but it occurred to me today watching you go up that mountain again. You're insanely fast up mountains. Can you give, I know your training program is huge, but can you give a condensed version of how do you approach, you know, when do you start training? For the X-Alps and how do you get the speed that you end up with now when it comes to the prologue and it comes to Sunday? How do you peak? How do you get to the point where, because you are really fast going up mountains and you have to do that, especially with your knee now. I think the last time when we did this, we had the last show. You said in the last race, you walked like 19 miles or something on pavement or 19K on pavement the whole race.

No, it was less. It was 60.

Really? Yeah. It's amazing. So how do you train for the vertical?

Well, that's something I really like to do. I really like steep. And when I was doing also ski touring race, I really like the steep race. So for me, it's, you know, like you have like a body which maybe easily muscle. And I have a body which works quite good. But

I don't know how to do it on

steep. I think this is something I just have it. Yeah. And I mean, how you train for the X-Alps, it's a question I can't answer because it's not, I never start a specific training for the X-Alps. My whole life, it's a training for the X-Alps in a way. And I can tell you, like during the winter, I do more like the endurance things with the projects and with the things I'm doing. So I'm out in the mountain on the ski for six, seven, eight hours. And ski

touring, ice climbing. Yeah. Just being in the mountains.

And then when it came to April, let's say end of March, beginning of April, it's this transfer time where I still go a bit skiing, but I also put the shoes on. And as soon as I put the shoes on, because also I really like it. I go for vertical training and yeah. But it's not like maybe you think I have a program. I have to do this, this, this every day. So these are more into the power training. On the power training, I have my plan and I do four to five training a week.

Lifting weight.

And do you, do you have a specific trainer or I know you have the Red Bull X-Alps Training Center, which we all go to get tested. It was an awesome facility, but do you also work with a trainer too?

Yeah, I have basically on the Training Center of Red Bull, there is a trainer which follows me and many other athletes too. And in Murano, I have in my hometown, I have a trainer which is working with me. and as you know with my knee problems I was really not thinking I can get again good I was having some really bad bad time so really where I was thinking ah that's maybe over you know like over in sense of everything like going skiing going like one and a half years ago I couldn't push the speed bar so I had Christian Biazzi from Woody Valley build me a speed bar with five steps because I push it on the left one on the good one and I hold on the right one I push it on the left holding on the right one so for each step I have to use so at that time I was thinking maybe that's it doesn't look good the old thing but of course I was lucky that I lucky and at the same time I didn't give up and then it comes the idea from one of the doctor to say okay Aaron we try already many things now we try to build up muscle even if you go in pain in the training we have to build up muscle and I work really hard on the basic so squat pistol

all the behind chain getting your structure back together and for example this muscle the vasto medialis I almost didn't have it anymore yeah it doesn't look I do a lot of weight because I'm still kind of skinny but I like I say I do four to five training a week yeah in the gym and also watching your video yeah it was cool because basically uh you you do quite similar as I do yeah yeah and

I'm not a big fan

of the and everything and when I first started thinking about the X-Alps he'd seen me ski he knew I didn't have stability problems but I had I'd had pain really bad pain for 20 years it was hard for me to walk off a curb and I just thought there's no chance and he said no no strength training we can we can and since the 2015 race I haven't had any knee pain it's amazing well for me you had a lot different but it's like I was

from a scale from zero to ten I was a long period on five to six yeah and still now I I I write it every day how much is my pain and it's uh from zero to one it's always you always have pain I I've had

a lot of pain and I'm not a

pain you feel it yeah yeah you know it's there yeah right but in a way it's maybe also good because it's um I know it's there but it's not a pain and so if I came to the idea running 100 kilometer on the asphalt this thing remember me you know it's not a good idea and I just don't do it yeah

yeah yeah Aaron you told a really funny story the last time I had you on the show after the 2019 race where to stay awake between Saint Hilaire kind of through the La Grave area you started watching YouTube videos I was cracking up the other day as Tom the door and I were having fun a really fun chat about the tired times you know when you're just exhausted in the race funny things that happen you you see things and you talk to people that aren't there do you have another one like that that you remember from one of the races yeah

definitely in 2013 my first ex-alps um I put

in in Swiss and I was really walking through the all night and it there are a couple of funny story so first during the night pass I'm walking basically on on a pass I think the Alpen pass and I start to see some light maybe down in the valley 200 meters some fire like um and this fire was moving and and I was walking alone at the time I did every the only ex-alps alone I didn't have a supporter which was working with me so it was I don't know one o 'clock and I start to think what the it has to be some satan satan crew you know I get really scared I'm thinking what these guys they have to be some satanic group in my eyes how do I get through

so even those I was really tired and and really on the end I start to run

and

it was nothing I

don't know I run away and I even didn't turn myself I just run as long as I can and and then like when I was really not able to run anymore I turn myself and I look behind and I didn't see the light

and I was like oh my god I'm so tired I'm so tired I'm so tired I'm so tired I don't see this

light anymore and I say oh good I'm saying there

was probably never anything there but yeah that's great

yeah and then basically the next day actually I fly very good I went interlocking and and I didn't fell asleep even though I was really tired but the day after I took off from the Leuchtenpass and I had to fly to the Matterhorn and the next turn point was Saint-Hilaire and I remember really well I was really tired and when I was crossing Verbier I was really falling asleep but I was at the same time not falling asleep because I was concentrated to find the next thermal and so I'm flying flying and thinking about the thermal but tired and then when I hit the thermal and I was like 50 meters next to the rock I fell asleep

perfect perfect timing so I'm falling asleep in a strong thermal 50 meters next to the cliff you know

oh it's crazy I just can't believe we do this it's crazy yeah Aaron thank you very much it's always a pleasure to talk to you and see you and have you on the show of course and I wish you all the best in the race and glad your knees feeling better and uh can't wait to see you out there buddy

yeah nice thank you very much Kevin thanks

buddy

Markus thanks for coming down and and doing a little show for us here I haven't had you on the podcast before so I've been looking forward to talking to you but congratulations on the prologue today how'd it go for you yeah

the prologue was super nice actually um it's the the the X-Alps mood came came up a little bit to get ready for the race to race across the Alps and uh it's sometimes it's kind to be a little bit honest kind of annoying with all the the organizational stuff um with the gear check glider check uh shootings and so on it's a long week yeah yeah yeah and I'm I'm really looking forward to the race and prologue was just fun hiking up flying around with with all the other X-Alps athletes and then seeing some some helicopters flying around filming this stuff

this was the first one we've had uh flying since 2015. you know 2017 was the rainy terrible one yeah and then last year you know it was windy so that was it was nice to be able to fly again on the prologue it was a fun fast course it was cool last time in the you were a rookie in the last one 2019 uh you were ripping with the the kind of top 10 there we were you and I were together going into day eight and I had a terrible day and you made a really nice run down to kind of the La Grave area and stuff and then something happened your kind of last 18 hours or 24 hours or more. What happened? I never got to ask you about that.

Yeah. Well, at the beginning, we made some rookie mistakes, like pretty much every rookie is doing. And everybody is telling, don't do this rookie mistake. We couldn't find our flow. And then we messed it up at one takeoff. And then it was just fine. And we were flying. And at one point, we were around the top 10 place. And whoa, crazy. I think I pushed a little bit too hard in the beginning of the race. And after like eight, nine, 10 days, you really feel the tiredness and you're exhausted. And I made the mistake while flying to Prias. So I did not really know that this area is quite stable.

And I got below an inversion layer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I tried to break through like three times and on the same place, same time. I just could fly, outfly the inversion. And then I decided to top land. Top landing was fine. And the plan was just easy. Hike up through the inversion, take off again. Sure. Let's go. And it was a great flying day. And while hiking up, I had really light shoes. And I was checking my mobile phone, hiking up.

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bit of rest and cooling and stuff and at this point around Monteviso there was a thunderstorm developing and for me it was clear well I can fly just one time hiking is no option and well I decided to glide down into the valley before the thunderstorm arrived at my place and I said well if I land I can't do anything just wait till the end yeah and we called Christoph Weber if we can cancel the race now and then he said yeah well if we do this we throw out yeah because of injury and then we said okay well then we just drink coffee and wait yeah

yeah perfect we'll just relax and heal yeah

it was kind of a sad end but yeah you did well man

yeah you really did well what what you know you said you made a lot of mistakes early what are the things that you learn from that that you're bringing to this race yeah

several times it's several things actually um the the first mistake we we had a really good plan but when when when you when you go into the race and fly with with Krivel Mara Maxim with with you and all the I say legends and well I'm not I'm flying for well now six years but uh last except it was four years geez and um

it's kind of stupid if you think you are smarter than the others and they go left and you go right

but the the point was um I had before the race I pushed too much and I had some knee problems and um pushing in uneven terror was not the best idea Krivel just said well he doesn't want to hike on the flats so he goes this way and everyone was following him and we actually had the plan to to glide to Kuchel and Golling and just hike and would be much much more efficient and and better for my knee and then hike on steep terrain no track um and then it was like following the others to

get back to them and um we kind of missed one takeoff and I I I saw like 10 15 gliders flying above me and and I took off like three times top land again because the the right

here at Saint Johan yeah yeah day two yeah

and you passed me and you took off out of some bushes and then I said hey why we don't go up there I

felt so bad for you that day because I you were ahead of me and you launched and then immediately landed down below and it was so hot that day too yeah oh I struggled up there though with the

takeoff yeah I blew my

whole B cascade I had to fly all the way to Asha with no bees on one side I yanked it out of the I got so frustrated up there I couldn't get off the hill yeah oh but you had it worse that's right I forgot about that

yeah but at the takeoff I had to support who could help me out because I had like two tries and and then it worked

um well and actually this was the best thing which can happen because we were far away from the first group there were some behind but I just said now we watch on on ourselves we look how we can proceed yeah and it turned out to be really good just make the best out of the situation sure and we like four or five days we ended up with flying with with Gaspar and Tom and you and Simon the gaggle between top place rank five and and ten yeah and um we we passed Mont Blanc and well I I told my supporters well on the Valley crossings and while it's light in in soft terminals uh turning I I started to to close my eyes to get some rest while flying and and then they said okay I almost fall asleep while while they're eating and then I said okay maybe let's uh take it more easy and and and rest two hours earlier but I was saying I was like why just continue keep the flow alive and um from that point we we paused a little bit more and um I don't know at this point when when I stopped the flow it starts it started to get really worse

yeah I got more tired more sleepy a little bit lack of motivation and then um we started to to push with the goal to reach Monaco but we were like 300 kilometer you're still away

you got too far ahead in your mind and if

you're too far ahead um you you lose the the division of of your surrounding right at the moment and this is important yeah

you went you went for the outcome process cool yeah that's that's one of the things that I try to keep relearning especially in this race you you got to stay in the now don't you it's really that's very very important um I've worked with Thomas a little bit on that Chrigel supporter that talking about you know you're going to make mistakes when you make mistakes it's the attitude is really important you know oh that was cool I learned something from that rather than I can't believe I just bombed out in the middle of the day you know You have to keep this kind of, like you said, flow. That was interesting. How will you utilize that this time? How will you try to stay more in flow?

I analyzed all my competitions. Well, due to the pandemic, I couldn't participate in that much competitions, obviously. But we had the Dolomiti Superfly and I tested out something. Just pushing from 7 to 9 p.m. all day. Because it's a much shorter race than the X-Ups. And the learning was, if I push really hard and I focus just on going on, going straight,

I lost the freedom of the fly. And I kind of, I was good in the beginning. But then I didn't see other routes, which were obviously, because out of the situation, much more efficient. And then I got stuck somewhere. Interesting. Yeah. So pushing too hard doesn't work. No. And for me, I can really keep in the flow.

When I... I'm pushing a little bit, but I'm more relaxed and have the time to look around, see if there are some birds, enjoy a little bit. Yeah. And just feel good and do my own stuff. Yeah. If I have a plan and sometimes plans are shittier also.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But most of the situations when I had a really good competition, I tried... I was walking on a really shitty day along the valley. And then I said, okay, maybe it opens a little bit. And it started to open. And then I said, okay, let's go up. And if you look into the forecast, you don't see any flying window. Yeah. And then you go up. So a little bit in a valley wind and make huge glides or even find terminals. Yeah. And... Those are special. That's super great. Yeah. That's, for me, the most... Intense and best moments in hike and fly competitions. Because you have to make the best out of it. And you check the forecast and shitty days.

You just see what happens. Yeah. And in most cases, you make super special and cool flights.

Yeah. That's a great segue. So last question is, what's the one thing, if you could pick one thing, that drove you to apply again this time? What was it when you thought, okay, July 1st, it's open. It's time to apply. What was the one thing that made, okay, I got to do it again?

I thought a lot about applying again. I think the most important fact was, for the first time, I did not really know what I will expect during the race. How long? Two weeks. It's huge. Yeah. How to deal with the time. That stuff. And at some points, we could really fly well and fly with the top pilots. And the end was kind of sad. And I focused too much on the sad end at the beginning. I almost fell into some kind of depression because I was just focusing on the sad end.

But overall, it was just a cool experience and adventure with my team. And yeah. I think that the thing why I wanted to compete again was it's like an unfulfilled task. Yeah. Unfinished story. Yeah. I don't push for some ranking. I want to finish the task. I want to reach Monaco. Well, now it's Salam C. Yeah. But it doesn't make much of a difference. Sure. But, well, kind of, if you never reached Monaco, it's a little bit of a challenge. It's kind of a cool story to cross all the Alps to Monaco to the sea. Sure.

Marcus, thank you. That was great. I really appreciate it. And I look forward to racing with you again. And it's good to see you here again. And I wish you all the best.

Yeah. Thanks, Kevin, for the nice chat. Awesome. And let's have a great race. Let's

do it. Let's do it.

Chrigel, great to see you, race with you again, have you back on the show. Thank you. Thank you. Congratulations on the win today. That's a nice way to start the X-Alps.

Thank you, Kevin. Yeah, it was a pleasure. For me, it was a bit stressful day or I was really nervous again. Really? After such a long period without competition. So it felt good. And finally, I want really to keep calm race and to do it as controlled as possible. And finally, for me, it was possible. And I raced with Maxim in the front and it was a pleasure. And yeah. It was a small tactic difference and my glider works well finally. And so I was able to win with this, this more lead.

You mentioned, I saw an interview with you recently that you hadn't, you hadn't gotten your glider yet. So that's, you must've just gotten it.

Yeah, we had some problem or others had some problem with the new gliders. And finally we decided to bring the old one. Oh. So I played the last two years with the same wing and for me, it's a comfortable situation because I'm

a new rider.

I know how it works and that it works. And finally it's good. And the differences to the new wings are not big, but it's, um, it's more a mental thing because flying a new competition with a new glider, it's always more motivated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, for this, for this also the day or to win the day was, was very good because after I felt better and then, uh, to be sure that I have the right equipment and, and it. It should work anyway, because it's a, it's an adventure race and then they're really not a really paralleling competition. So the glide is not that important in the, in the last, um, performance then, uh, for example, a park in the world cup.

Hmm. Now I might be wrong here, but it seems to me, you know, my first year was 2015, uh, which was the first year that we had the prologue. You, I, I gather that you didn't take it very seriously then, but in the last couple, you've really gone. You've really gone hard. Uh, I know you always physically train really hard, but how important is it to you?

Yeah, I, I really like to improve my body. So I did a serious training, uh, in the last 12 years and I'm coming more old, the re recovery time needs more time, but, but I'm, I'm still can improve a little bit, but, um, yeah, maybe it's not that important to be so fit as possible or. But it's more important to be, uh, really constant in, in, um, in walking on the street and, uh, to bring performance every day, because it's, for me, it's a big different to be in a short race, very fast. Or to bring performance every day for 17 and a half hours. So, and in the winter, I really pushed the small races for, for a quick time.

And in spring, I started to do the long trainings. They had the. The walk on the flat with my glider to be ready to bring performance every day and have a good recovery. Do

you have any trouble with your feet?

Yes, I had, uh, and it's stupid because, uh, I, I thought I'm smart after 12 years, uh, training and do it competition. And I was often overloaded. So I had some problems and I know that the recovery it's always a long and hard time, and I really wanted not to destroy myself in this spring. But there was the wings for life word, John. Yeah, it was a really interesting and I did it last year too. And I was really motivated to, to compare to last year. And I run with my boys. They follow me by bike. Oh,

cool. They

support me. And it was a nice day and I was pushing and I felt good. I not felt every, any problem during the 40 K. Run. And on the day after I realized that the leg, the Achilles. Oh, it's it was a bit overloaded and I thought it will be good after week, but it was an inflammation that was not good after week. And then I was thinking about, um, to do less training. I felt that running down, for example, is working, but flat running and uphill, it's very bad for this. So I started to do more mountain biking and took the cable car up to run down. So it was a new experience to me, but. They felt that something is not good and it takes really a lot of time to recover.

And for three and a half weeks, I was not really training physically hard. And then I started to have a better recovery with a physiotherapy. I, in the end, I made a ultrasound therapy to, to get more quick, healthy. And now it's, um, yeah, it was on the end. It was quite, quite tight because, uh, I'm recurring. worked completely since 10 days. Really? Yeah. So this

just happened?

Yeah. Yeah, wow. So all the way, I was break down by this problem. And finally, I'm fine, but it was almost, yeah, it was very tight. So it was a good lesson to be more smart on the next time.

Right. And do you have any trouble, Steve Bramfitt, you guys did a big walk this winter and he did a little write up about, I was really excited to read it and there wasn't much detail about how you prevent blisters. Do you have a special way that you take care of your feet?

Yes. I know that it's really important that the socks and your inlets in the shoes and your shoes fits together. I have some inlets, they are too slippery and I have some inlets, they are too like glue. And then my foot. My skin moves in the socks and this is very dangerous for blisters. And if the socks slippers on the inlet, then it's also bad. So that this plays together, it's very important. When you say inlet,

the insole.

The insole, yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. And

I have different shoes. My wife told me I have 27 shoes. Yeah,

about the same. It's a

bit special, but I'm really know that the shoes are very important. And in generally, I test all shoes in the flat on the road. Yeah. On the trails, it's not that important than on the road. And then it's important to train on the flat and a little bit climbing and a little bit downhill. Yeah. And everything it's on the grass or in the off-road, it's less important. But the flat, it's sometimes a problem for my feet. And finally, I also do. I put on Vaseline on my feet and not when it's a problem. I do it generally. Okay. So every day, the Vaseline maybe works for four or five hours.

And then I have to put it on again. Okay. And what I also do is while walking on the flat, I change my shoes every 15, 20K. Yeah. So it's not that I can walk differently. But that my. Feet are loaded differently. Yeah. And also the insole in the different shoes are different. And so I have for this race, I bring six shoes, six different shoes for road and trail. Okay. And then also mountaineering mountain shoes. Yeah. For sure. If you go really in snow. Yeah. But I think already for the road, two different shoes and for the trails, three different shoes.

Yeah. And I think that makes sense to switch. Yeah. Because of the different load on these long days.

Yeah. What's the hardest thing you found in your six races and the X-House and then you do all the other ones too, to take care of? What's the thing that's the, is there been a needling little, you know, you had the knee injury in 2017, I think, but is there, is there any overuse injuries or anything that's just, God, this thing's back?

In general? Yeah. I was, was always with small problems, but it was nothing that destroyed me completely. I guess Aaron had more problem after his downhill in 2017. And what I do, it's a lot of gym training, power training, especially my legs and with strong weights, but also with, with the coordination. Yeah. So for example, I, I, I clean my teeth on this. Okay. Soft ground on a soft ball. Yeah. And to stay on this soft ground for five minutes each day. And I do slack lining, for example, and all these small moves and also running off road

for sure. It gives a good foot and leg stability.

Ankle strength. And you know,

exactly. And this helps to, to be more resistant during the race. And I guess that in 2017, for sure, the first day was bad weather and we walked. All the way. But I was not, I was too lazy with the power training in the spring. Oh. I made a power training in the winter and then I started ski touring and I started running and I, I, I put away the, the power training. So I lost muscles and also stability. Oh. And for, for this, I, I made more trainings, uh, in, in 2019 and for sure now do every week for minimum one time. One hour, really hard, uh, with weight, hard power training. Do you work with a trainer?

No, because I, I know that the trainer can control me and if I can control myself with a good motivation, I not need a train, but I have a good connections with other athletes. So I ask them for new exercises and what they do. And then I try it out because I think anyway, it's good to switch exercises. Yeah. Often. Mm-hmm. Um, to try new loads to, to get new, um, muscles. Because if you do every week, uh, always the same exercise with the same weight. Yeah. It's not efficient. You

talked about cross training, the, using the softball when you're doing, when you're brushing your teeth and slack lining, do you feel like that's also crossing over to flying as well? Do you do other things there that are balance oriented that you feel helps? Yeah. Um,

not really for sure. It's good to have strong legs for the acceleration to, to, to fly with speed all the day. But, um, with the new wings, with the B handles, it's not so important anymore. I was pretty soft in five years ago. Yeah. It's softer and more comfortable, but in, in general, it's good to be physically ready to, to do the long flights because the concentration can be longer on the how to fly or where to fly. Instead of, um, of this thinking about tiredness and, and, and, and fly with speed. I, I guess.

Yeah. What part of the course do you think is going to be the toughest? Is it, you've been, um, I've, I've heard you be a little, you know, quite vocal that it obviously it can be pretty fast. They're taking us in a lot of the route is some pretty fast terrain, you know, in your, your neck of the woods down the Rhone. Um, with good weather. Uh, but what do you, what do you think, what's the, what's the part or parts of the course that trouble you most?

Yeah, for, for us, we say we are, have w w w we say we have three heights. So that low level is the roads in rain. Yeah. And it's very easy to calculate and to walk. And the high level is the Alpine, um, where, where you can go up above the tree line and then you fly. Yeah. And the biggest trouble we see in the high. Uh, mid in the medium layer, which is often the forest hills windy and no takeoffs and no landings. And for this, we see that the, the leg from Lermos, um, until the Switzerland Santis turn point, it's often in this, um, area with the mid layer. And then it's really difficult to, to have straight lines to walk and often on the hills, no takeoffs.

And you have really to know where to go. If it's flyable for sure, you can cross over easy. Sure. But if not, then, then it's, it's troubling. And for me, it's, um, it's also a new area. We never was so low. So North of, of the Alps in, in, uh, crossing towards Switzerland. And I know this area a bit, but also that there is a stable breeze from the North come in every day and it makes the flight more difficult. Sure. And after for sure, it's, um, it's, it's high Alpine and more easy if we have good weather, otherwise it's, it's, uh, hard to walk for sure with the up and downs. And then the South is all the West part around the Mont Blanc.

It's the question about the weather, because if it's flyable, it's one hour and done. And if not, it's one day. Yeah. So there was some discussions about this 1,200 K. To do it in 10 days. Yes. It's an average of, of my speed over the last six additions. But in this additions, the turn point wasn't so difficult. Sure. And now, so now it has the weather have to be better than the average in that past. And we had good weather. Yeah. I remember 2007, Alex Hofer walked to the snow in the, in the Volker pass and the supported cars with the summer wheels was not following. So it's, uh, if happened. Yeah. And this, this year for sure, 12 days, it's not enough.

Yeah. But, um, the most interesting part for sure, it's after the Mont Blanc because you can choose different ways. Yeah. And the ways are not easy to switch. So if you choose one way, for example, the South, you have to stay South of the Alps. Yeah. If you go North back to Wallis, you have to stay there and you have a, uh, extra way to do because it's a longer way, but it's highway. If it's liable. Fast. I guess it's faster. Yeah. To do it the extra way. And, uh, I'm really happy to do this part because, um, yeah, I think it could be fascinating. You could have, I

mean, there's, there's, there's five main ways to get through and more.

And it's, um, it's 245 K from the Mont Blanc to the Piz Palais and in a good day, we can do it in one day. Yeah. Because it's all downwind. Downwind I hope. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm specially focused on the, on the last part of the race. Okay. To come from Meran, Kronplatz back to the goal. Mm-hmm. Because, um, I think if, if you are tired and you are so close from the goal, you have to know exactly what to do. Mm-hmm. For sure the idea it's easy, but actually one week before we are there, it's quite a lot of snow. Yeah. It's very

snowy this year.

It's snowy. And, uh, depends on which time on a day you arrive and which. Which cloud base you have. Mm-hmm. And the worst case for sure is to fly into the valley in the evening with a low base. Yeah. Then you have to land on a place where you don't know what the snow it's, it's, it's doing. And I know that, uh, that with this running shoes, you can be stuck in a, in a meter of snow. Yeah. For sure. Post-hauling hell. Yeah.

In the summer, ice and that guy. Yeah. Isothermic. Ugh.

And I. Could be miserable. I, I really. Yeah.

I have to be

careful with these situations. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Because it's not until now I did six races and almost every race was, was always pushing. Mm-hmm. And on this race with this snow, it can be happen that it's not about pushing. It's about, uh, safety. Yeah. Pulling back a little. To,

to, to

arrive and all that.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's, there's some, there's some, uh, potential overhanging hazards out there. Yeah. I mean that in general. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I was talking to Thomas this morning and your team is back to the original, that it's just you and him. I understand you have a media guy in the Land Rover, but, um, what's it feel like to be back with your, your guy? Or it that's gotta be really exciting.

Yeah. He's, he's back in the race. We, we never stopped our partnership, but, um, I'm very happy that he said last summer that he's interested. Yeah. to do the exams again and that he will take time for this for sure it's a preparation time we spend a lot of time and now these three weeks for him it's uh it's really expensive for sure yeah but it's also good to think about the future to to to improve our our skills by by the normal process but also by by doing um the the daily life over the two years between the exams so so it's not only about doing the race again together it's it's also working on us uh in general yeah

and he said the the decision to go with the really small team he just got the small van and the two um remember you and i talked about this the last time that uh the race has gotten so fast and the teams have gotten so much faster that to do it just with one which is what you preferred back when you did the first couple is maybe just too much it's just too much on the supporter to handle so i'm curious what was your decision this time was it more driven by thomas was it more driven by you and and the decision to really just go with the one supporter i

felt that the one car with two supporters it's it's a good combination because um they can they can help each other for driving for for the logistics and everything and and having two cars for sure it's it's a good option but it helps only on some parts yeah and the other i would say 80 percent the the second car the more people it's not useful and it have to be really uh in a good balance that they are not too lazy or that they keep up the motivation all these two weeks because it's

a good option and it helps only on some parts yeah and the other i would say 80 percent

it's not it's not the holiday yeah it's not the pleasure it's after one week it starts to be hard yeah and and for this we have we we had a long talk with with uh different people and and for me it it makes more sense to to keep the team small but but efficient yeah so i'm know that i'm often have maybe some grams or kilograms more

somebody who's

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Yeah, the fun is important and to talk and to enjoy. And it's so focused these two weeks so that it's difficult to keep or take time for many people. Yeah.

Final question. I wasn't planning on asking you this, but when we pass Mont Blanc, we've got Orcieres into the Rhone or we've got Domodossola and the Makagnaga and Domodossola up around the Big Sea. We've got Makagnaga and Sturek. We've got Bellinzona. We've got the South. We've got all these options. When are you making that call? And are you making that call? Is it something as you're leaving Dente Osh and getting up into that zone, your weather person? I don't know if you even have a weather person now back home, but is it really, okay, the weather's looking better and they're all going that way or is it just you calling it on the fly in the sky?

The most of the road. I go step by step along the clouds and do it quite on a small planning. But I know that in the area around Mont Blanc, we have to have a better forecast for the next two, three days. And for this, I have help at home to understand better what's happened. And we say that when there is north wind, then we have better conditions in the south, but it can be too windy and too danger. Yeah. So maybe it's more smart to go north.

You're talking about Fern when it's really strong. Yeah,

exactly. And the opposite is with south wind. So this is a big influential. And in the end, it's a decision where we have to take quite early and then we are in this way. But as you said, there is some places where you can switch, where you can go from north to the south or Yeah. So I guess that depends on the weather situation. We made this plan A, B, C, D. And then if you go plan A, there is another point for a new decision. And from this point, it's another play A, B, C, D. And we know this already. We read them down. We spend a lot of hours for thinking about these options.

And now I can go to the place and I can check them. For. And I can go directly to the plan we thought. And then it's more or less clear what it means in the next decision point. And it makes it easier. And I can have a quicker decision. And I know the strong points or the chances. And I know the problems. For example, the south, it's more straight. But you have air spaces. And the north is more far, but it's highway. Yeah. And yeah, finally, I did all the time small steps until the point. And if it was really not clear, I followed my stomach.

For what I'm. Whatever feels right. Yeah. It was the same in 2017. I made the turn point Matterhorn. And then it was straight to the south. And we could go west to France and east to Italy. Italy, they say it's a no go because not liable so much. And the France, French part was more long. But on this time, it was really not clear how good the conditions would be in the next two days. And I didn't know what to do. And I glide down from this high call the. Yeah. And, uh, the backside is remote to the south. Yeah. And I top landed because I wanted to understand.

Better what's happened. And I called to my Matthew guy. And he says, um, maybe it's 50 50. And on the end, I started and I flew. And then I had to decide how also or. And then there was a storm coming towards our. And I felt, okay, this is now a no go. So you have to go left in the sun. Yeah. And this was the decision. Easy. And finally, I landed. And I know now to go back to France. Yeah. And I'm

like, okay, I'm going to get a little bit of a break. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to get a little bit of a break. And finally

it was working. I'm not sure if it was faster or not, but at this time, this place, it was for me, easy to decide because of the storm. They come. So, and often, often, I don't know exactly what to do. I, on the end, I followed the easiest way. Yeah.

Yeah. Chrigel. Thank you. Always such a pleasure. And thank you for being so open and sharing of all your. Knowledge and terrific wind today. Congratulations. And I can't wait to do this again with you. Thanks. Thanks so much. And look forward to racing with you on Sunday.

Yeah, I'm very happy. And for me, it's also nice to see that you are here every two years and to keep up the motivation. And I mean, for us, I give you something

to look forward to. Yeah. 50. Yeah.

Yeah. Often people or journalists ask what do you do after when you're not able to fly anymore? And I say, it's. It's another two, three, another 20 years that I would fly and Oki it's 61. So. Yeah. I will do this for a long time. Yeah. Then the

next guests are Simon and Thomas and combined they're my age. Oh yeah. Yeah. They are so young. They're so young. Thomas did well today. He did great. Yeah. He flew really fast, really well. That's fantastic to see.

No, it's cool. I'm very happy to start a new adventure. Everybody knows. Or. Everybody not knows, but they, they gave me the feeling that I will win for sure. But I told them, no, it's a new race. It's a new challenge. Things happen. And, and you have to go so careful. Yeah. And not only for one, two days, it's for, for. That's all day until the goal. And it's. Gotta stay healthy for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really bigger challenge than a competition. Sure. And nobody, I think nobody understands. I don't think so. I think it's very hard to understand. Yeah.

Let me, I wasn't going to ask you any more questions, but let me ask you one more. Um, after six wins, you know, do you see, do you still see this as a, you'll do five more, 10 more? Do you, would you, is this, will you just keep doing it as long as it's interesting and challenging?

Yeah. I say as long my body not doing too much problems and as long as I feel a good motivation. Yeah. As long as I like it to do. Because in, in this high school. I can fly sport. I, I really do only what I like to do. Yeah. And I like to work with persons with companies for sponsors. I like to do the, um, the media work as well, because I can share the, the, the good feelings, the, the motivation. Mm-hmm. And I think the most important for all the people on the world is to have a goal and to, to feel the motivation to, to be happy and also to reach a goal, to feel the, the good, the good. Um. And, um, yes, why not to, to do it again and again?

Because, because I can learn in the training and in the preparation time so much. Mm-hmm. And in the race, it's so intense, but, but also good for sure. And it's painful and not so, uh, I'm know that they are not, uh, all days, just funny days. Yeah. Um, but, but in generally, I think I'm happy after. Yeah. And I'm proud to, to look at it. I'm

proud to look

back and see what we did. Yeah. And, uh, and for this, I, I go for the pain.

Mm-hmm. You're very inspiring. Yeah. Thank you, Chrigel. And, uh, good luck. Have fun. Be safe. And, uh, yeah. See you in Zell am See. Yes. It's a long

way, but.

It's a long way. Sure. We hope, we

hope. Sure. Yeah.

Simon, great to have you on the show. I've been actually meaning to get you on for a real show and we will do that at some point, uh, cause I've been really impressed with you. I've been really impressed with your skyrocket, uh, improvement and, and your last two ex-Alps. You've done really well in this race. Uh, but thanks for coming on the Mayhem and sharing a little bit of your time. How'd it go today?

Um, well, yeah, thank you. Thank you for, um, doing the podcast with me. How did it go today? Today was, I have to say, I feel very good and it was a nice race. I really enjoyed it. And I think that's probably the best. That could happen. I didn't, um, made my, my first flight, my first attempt, you know, when, when. Ah, did you have

a bad cycle? Were you one of those that had to land? Yeah, I was thinking, oh,

such a bad cycle. You know, it's, it's, it's so hard. You, you see the people like Chrigel, Tommy, Maxime, Benoit, got a nice bubble and I was like, yeah, I'm going to join there. No way. Yeah. Just, I just couldn't. And, um, the cycle was over and I had to land again. And I had to land again. I woke up again and it was so hot. Aaron had to do the same. It was hot today. Man, it was brutal. But then it's, it worked out great. And I had a really good feeling under my wing and yeah, everything was, was nice. I got into the flow and therefore I knew I have nothing to win now, but everything to lose if I bomb out or something like this.

Don't walk. No more walking. Yeah.

25K course. I can fly this. I'm

so easy flying and yeah, I'm happy with that. So I can sleep half an hour more on Monday. There

you go.

That's not bad either. Yeah.

Look at all the optimistic sides of these things. Don't you? You've done really well in this race. You're quite young. I think you just had your 30th birthday. Congratulations. And, uh, but yeah, you've done, you've done really well. You seem to have the right approach. I've seen a bunch of your interviews. You're always really happy and stoked and, uh, you seem like quite an opportunist. What, if anything, are you changing? What are you changing this time around? What have you, what have you learned from the last two that, and not necessarily to place better, you've placed really well, uh, but just to, I don't know, do something different in a different way.

For me, the approach always was to, to make this an adventure and make it, make it like

I'm, I'm allowed to take part and I can, but I don't have to.

So that was always the focus. And when I first participated and then the race started and it was like all gone and it was like, okay, I'm sorry. And I was like, okay, full speed and, and, and flying in conditions where I shouldn't have been flown. And then I landed and then I realized that, and I wanted to quit. I said, okay, that's, that's not good. But then.

Oh, you kind of had like a coming to Jesus. Kind of moment. Yeah. Just kind of, Whoa, wait a minute. That wasn't, that's not the plan. That's that wasn't. Yeah. Okay.

Just as you say. Yeah. And then I have the luck that I have my best friends with me and also my girlfriend. And then we said, okay, now let's see, let's just walk a little bit and talk about it. We, we even collect some, um, some mushrooms on the way. Yeah. 2017. And then it was like, okay, let's do it easy. Tomorrow we go up there and then we look how it's going. And then I. So you

must be talking about the 2017 when we all flew in the Fern and the really dicey day. Yeah. That was pretty sketchy. That was the scariest Perry wedding I'd ever seen. And I, and I was, I've walked all that night. I did the terrible move with my night pass. So I saw you guys all flying down and it was terrifying. That really was, was tough. And

then the next day we got perfect East side started. And on the end of the day, I was, I think 25th, 20, 25 ranking. And then I was fifth. Hmm. So I just had no pressure. Yeah. And, and that's not so easy to, um, to do to yourself. So don't pressure yourself during, during an event like this. Sure. That's, that's not, not easy, but that's my main goal because I know only then I can be good. And only then I can fly really intuitive, but it's really hard to do. It's not easy. Yeah.

How much experience did you have when you came into your first one? I think I had about four, four years of flying. Wow. Four or five years. Yeah. A lot of people have taught, I've had on the show, you know, done the X-Tops in four and five years. I just think that's amazing. But I did

fly really a lot. Yeah. I flew a lot. I, it was, um, I flew

a lot.

I started studying and flying together and it was, it didn't, it didn't go well for studying. So I was just flying. Yeah. Is this your job? Yeah, this is my job. Um, the, the thing is I'm with Thomas Friedrich. Yeah. We have flying school in Graz. Yeah. Together. And. Which was his father's, correct? It was his father's. Yeah. Yeah.

And now we

are doing it.

Yeah. And he was just in here. Yeah. And he said when he did his first X-Tops, Tommy was nine.

Yeah. That's right. And

Paul was

pretty young when he did his first X-Tops. Yeah. It's, it's, it's kind of funny because, um, we all are about 10 years or one generation each. And when I did my first flight, my first flight from the high hill, like 400 meters altitude difference, Tommy was there. And I think one week later he did his first flight out there. Really? Yeah. And he was like super. Tiny little guy. Tiny little guy. Yeah. Yeah. But you could tell that he has a very good feeling for the wing because he's doing his, all his life. He's

just been around it since the beginning. Yeah. I'm so jealous of that. That's so awesome. Me

too. Me too.

Okay. Last two races going into this one. What have you found physically is the most, is the hardest thing to, to deal with?

It depends. Um, if you, if the weather is good. I mean, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then,

then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually

eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually

eventually eventually eventually eventually

eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually eventually

And if you do wrong decisions, you have to prepare yourself for that. To have a plan if something bad happens, like you bomb out on a super day, and when you're pissed off, then nothing works. Yeah. And yeah, that's really hard.

That's really hard. Yeah. It's really hard. It's easy to say you won't get pissed off, but it's really hard. This is kind of a tough question. I asked this one with one other. Everything we have, it's a super light race. Every ounce matters. So I know that everything in our bag is obviously we wouldn't take it if it wasn't really important. But what are the three kind of pieces of gear that you think, yeah, that one's key?

So do you mean except of the flying equipment? Yeah. I mean,

we all have the flying equipment. So I think it would be fair to say, okay, you've got to have the right wing. We all very much love. Our wing. But no, I'm thinking more little stuff that most people maybe aren't thinking about. The stuff that is maybe more mundane in the general eyes, but for us, it's actually really pretty key.

Okay. There are some things like I need the right shoes, for example, for flying.

Because not every shoe is perfect for the accelerator, and that kind of has to stick together. Yeah. And then maybe if you want to go out of the cocoon, the profile gets stuck or something like that. So the shoes are important for me for flying. And walking. Of

course, clothing

and walking, of course. Yeah. Do

you go with like a low drop shoe, not much cushion, a lot of cushion? Do you have different ones for doing different things?

Yeah. I change a lot on the road. Yeah. Because every time I feel okay, now the shoe was maybe a little bit too soft. I change to wear more without cushioning. And so I think the more you change, the better for me. So I have different...

My feet get different...

Rub points and wear areas. Yeah, sure.

But I have one thing always. I have one pair of shoes with me that are new. Okay. I know the shoe, but it's always like a little, a good thing for me. So like, not a surprise, but a sweet, a sweet thing for me. Like a little treat. A little treat. Yeah. A little treat for me when I have this shoe then. Okay. It's like the cushion is perfect and nice. And I normally don't have problems with blisters. Really?

You're lucky. Yeah. I have a lot of problems with my feet, but it's... I think I've... I think I've sorted it out after four... Okay. Going into the fourth race. Last question. When you... When they opened up the application period this time, so July 1st, I think, what was the one thing that was, I have to do this race again? What was the overriding, yes, I'm going to apply again. I'm going to do it again. What was the reason why?

I guess it was the overall feeling when I stood there in Monaco.

And my family joined me. My parents were down there. My whole team. And we made it to that float, you know? Yeah. And that was... We're all on the beach and you're just happy. Yeah. And it's such a relief to be there. And I thought about that, but I also thought about the tough things because I was very ill. Very ill. Very ill. Very ill. Very ill. Very ill. But we kind of pushed everything through. And I was so amazed what was possible. Let's see what 21 brings. And that was the

drive. It was... I get... In some ways, I mean, I love this course way more than going to Monaco. I think it's going to be a lot more fun and staying in the mountains and stuff. But in some ways, we're also lucky that we've been there. And it's... I feel for those that are new or that haven't because it's quite cool getting, you know, crossing the Alps and ending at the ocean. That is quite neat. But God, that's a terrible place. The hot and the concrete and the... Oh, my God. It's really tough. Yeah. Miserable down there. But Simon, thank you. And nice race today. And good luck, of course. And be safe. Be healthy. And let's have some fun.

For sure. And congratulations to your race. It was also pretty nice. Thank

you. Yeah. No, it really all just worked. That was good. I've had a rough... We've talked about that already on the show, but I had a pretty bad crash about two and a half weeks ago. And I

heard it was

pretty beat up. And so today was kind of the first day where I was starting to feel healthy again. So it was just in time. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you. Okay.

Thank you. First off, nice job today, dude. Pretty good as a rookie on the podium. So fantastic work. How was it?

Yeah. Just super nice day. When I think back to this morning, it was... Yeah. I would never expect this. And now in the evening after this product of my first ever Red Bull League Subs, it's just... Yeah. It's just crazy. Yeah. I never thought that I would be on the podium. And yeah, it was a nice battle in the end. So Benoit. But yeah, I was a bit higher and a bit faster and then it was good. And I could manage to get on the podium. Yeah. Fantastic. Crazy.

I was going to... In 2015, I got... We had... It was the last time we had kind of a flying race. You know, 2017, 2019, the weather was pretty bad. Yeah. And I got third in that one. And it was... You know, when I came into that race, I literally had no idea if I was going to be the first one eliminated. I just didn't know where I belonged. And it was quite a nice confidence boost. Now, you've done... You've been doing some other hike and fly races. I gather you probably weren't as... It wasn't quite as much unknown as I was back in 2015. But is it good for your confidence? Do you feel that that helped going into the main race?

Yeah. I think it's always a bit of a confidence boost. And yeah, it's a perfect start of my first race. And yeah, for me, it's the same. So I think Red Bull itself sits 12 days long. And there are so many factors that can go good or wrong. So I think it's really, really difficult to say, okay, I have that and that expectation for the race. I think it's really important to just go there and give your best. And at the end of every day, you see where you are and what you have done right or wrong. And after every day, it's... It's quite difficult to reflect all the things that happened.

But I think it's really important to do and to see, okay, what I have done right today, what I have done wrong today, and what can I do better tomorrow? And learn out of your mistakes. And yeah, I will try.

How have you approached the preparation and kind of ramping up to this? I know that I saw the interview with you and Simon at Targo. I did. And I know you and Simon have the school together. Has he been quite a good mentor? Did he help you out a lot with just what to expect? That was a hard thing for me. I really had no idea. I didn't know. You know, 12 days, it just seemed too much. I mean, just will my body work that long, you know? Yeah.

So yeah, right now I'm working in the flying school. So I overtook the flying school from my dad. And... Mm-hmm. And yeah, I do it together with Simon. And I joined Simon already at the last two editions of the race. So in 2000...

Ah, I forgot

that. You supported Simon. Yeah, I supported Simon. Yeah, right. Okay. Like four years ago, it was still allowed to fly together. So we were flying a lot together in the race. And yeah, it was a super nice time there back then. And last year, I was... So the last edition two years ago, I was also with him. And I was not allowed to fly together anymore. Yeah. But I was still going up to the mountain with him. Then he took off and I flew as well a bit. And yeah, it was a nice experience to see how the race is going. And I can remember when I was here at the race for the first time. It was when I was a little child. And I was there on... It was the prologue on Schaffberg.

Okay. It was in Fuschl. Yeah. And I was there with my dad on the prologue. Oh, in 2015. Yeah, yeah. I was also flying there. And with my... I had a Scabard Chili. Yeah. With a light harness. And I was also hiking up there. And it was like, oh, all the super good X-Hubs athletes. So you've been around this your whole life. Yeah. It was the first time I was really into the race. Yeah. And I was following the race since I was a little child. Really. So since I... That's amazing. Since Paul was there for the first time. And Paul was also in our flying school. And when he came for the first time in our flying school, he said, okay, he wants to do X-Hubs. And he was just a beginner. Everyone laughed at him.

Yeah. Then some years later, he started at the race. And since then, I was always following the race and said, okay, I want to go there. I want to do this also. And... What

does it feel like to be here? Yeah. I mean, can you even articulate it? I mean, you're here. You got third in the prologue.

It's pretty hard to realize it. So I came here and it's like, okay, now you're an athlete. And all the people around me are like, fuck, how cool is this? Now you're here as an athlete. And I said, yeah, I'm here as an athlete. Sure. Fuck. I didn't realize it yet. And then today, there was the prologue and I was flying and it was just... I also didn't realize. I said, okay, now I'm in third position. What's going on?

How did this work? How does this work? It was like

super nice. Yeah. Just crazy. Crazy. I can't realize it.

Tommy, your dad was very famous in this sport. He had the school for a long time. Your dad taught Paul and Simon and very sadly passed last year. I'm sorry. But if he was here, what do you think he'd say to you? Not about today, but going into this race, what advice would he give you?

Yeah. So he was always the person that when I had something really special, he was the first person I called. And I said, yeah, fuck, I did this and I did this. And it's like... So excited for you. He was my flying teacher and I started flying because of him. Wow. And yeah. He was... He was really always the person. If it was good news or bad news, I would always call him and say, yeah, hey, I did this and I did this. And for sure, he would have been the first person that I would call today after the race. Awesome. They would have

been here. But what advice do you think he'd have for you? What advice? What advice? Yeah. It's just, you know, as your dad, he's got all this experience. He's had the school. You know, you've done well in the prologue. What would he say as a, you know, hey, Tommy, on Sunday, here's what you need to do.

Yeah. So in the end, I think he was a person that I think he never showed it like this. That's a super nice. You did this super nice or you did this super good. It was always like, yeah, you did. You did good. But it was... But inside, he was really super with me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. but you did good. Yeah, good, good. Ah, you just served? Yeah, maybe you could win. Ah. No, it's not like this. He was also proud, but he was never like, okay, super

nice, it's so good. Yeah.

Not overdo it, but just the perfect balance. You mentioned

it's quite hard to set kind of correct expectations when you don't really know what you're getting into or what it's even all about totally. But what are your expectations? What are your expectations and what are your fears about the race? Whew, that's hard. So like

I said before, expectations, I think it's pretty hard to say, okay, I have this and this expectation for the race because it's that long and so many things can happen. And like I said before, so many things can go good or can go wrong. Like today, it was just super lucky that the terminals were right there when we took off. Yeah. And then afterwards, other people took off and then it was done. So the terminals were done or the next cyclos were coming.

And yeah, so I think it's not always just that you, yeah, in the end, you see who is the better one, who is not the better one. Yeah. But for some moments, maybe you need luck too. So it's sometimes something work out and for another one, it don't work out. So you fly there and the terminal is there and you climb up and another one came there or come there and the terminal is gone. So you need a bit of luck. But yeah, in the end, my expectation or my goal for the race, is for sure to get to the goal in Salon C. Yeah.

But also to just give my best and I will try to give my best and yeah, keep up the good vibes. I think that's the most important thing. Stay happy. Stay happy. Yeah, that's always my motto in life also. Just stay happy. It's not... So I think it's not possible to like always be happy. Yeah. But because if you're always happy, there is no happy or no happy. You're

not happy

anymore. Right. But there's no time or the life is too short for bad vibes. So just try to stay happy and yeah, the good times will come again.

Like the song. Yeah, like the song. Last question. Do you have any specific fears about the race? And that could be, I don't mean scary, but anything that you're...

that you're

worried about in terms of maybe part of the course or your team or your own preparation, anything that's just kind of needling you at night, keeping you up a little bit before the race? So one big

fear is for sure are the airspaces and the no landing zones. There are so many and every year it's getting more difficult with the airspaces and not only on the XR route, it's like always where you fly, it's getting more and more airspaces. But it's a disaster if you go into one and it can be over. You just don't realize that you're in and then the race is over for you. Do you have

the side view? Do you use FlySky High by any chance? Or do you use XT Track? I use XT Track. Does it have the side view? Do you know what I'm talking about? This saves me. I try to tell everybody about this. It saves me in this race. So the side view is, you know, you got your map page there. And this has the airspace. So see like where we are. So this has the ceiling and your predictor line. So, you know, that right there is the

no hunting zones here. So if you're on that line, it'll show it's just, you can't go through there. So you'll see it there, you know, like you normally do. But this side view for me, you know, say coming out of the Geisberg and it steps up, right? Oh man, it makes it so nice. I know a lot of people that have seen it. It's good because of that. It's good. I have to look for it. It's a nice thing to have. Yeah, sure. Or free tip. But yeah, because there's a lot of airspace. Yeah, sure. And it can really

destroy your race. Yeah. So it's a surprise. Easy way to

take yourself right out of flow. Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, that's it. So yeah, so it's really difficult because, yeah, you practice it in the preparation, you fly. No, because we don't have any airspace at home.

Yeah, we have. We have. Yeah, you have it. We don't literally have no airspace where I'm at. Yeah, that's nice. Well, it's lovely. But when I, my first race, I was petrified of the airspace. And now because of that, it has really helped. If I had to do it just on the Flymaster, no way, I can't do it. And it's not because I just don't know the Flymaster that well, but I have to have it visually like that where I can see it and kind of understand it because now I struggle with airspace.

Sure. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.

So, yeah, it's a nice track

and it's also working quite good. And there's the distances to the airspaces. But yeah, there are so many no flight zones because of hunting also and no planned landing zones. Yeah, that

one's weird. We never had that before. Yeah, that one is weird. And there's a lot of them. So

yeah, it makes the race even more difficult. So I have a plan for this, Tommy. Yeah. We

just fly through those parts. Yeah, sure. To no landing zones. Yeah, I

would say too. Yeah,

I think that's a good plan.

We take all the difficult parts of the race.

We take the route

and then we fly through there. Yes, exactly. It's my plan too. So I would like to do it. Yeah, okay. Let's do that. And then we arrive in goal after 10 days because it's super nice for flying. There we go. So that's... There we go. Let's do it like this. Let's do it like that. Sounds good.

That's the plan. Nice job today. Great, great work and congratulations. And I'm really excited to race with you and everybody else on Sunday. Thank

you. And

if there's anything I can do to help you out, let me know. Thanks for your time. Thank you for the nice talk. Thank you.

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