Hey
everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Spring has certainly arrived in full in the Northern Hemisphere. Some big flights going down in Europe last week or so. First 300 open distance and a whole bunch of big triangles, snow on the ground. Beautiful, inspiring, and encouraging, hopefully, for the season that is headed our way. Hopefully putting COVID in the rearview mirror here, so that's exciting. The music you just heard at the top of the show has been provided by a friend of mine, Thad Spencer, a very good pilot. He's got a music production company and writes all kinds of stuff for tons of different, you know, commercial and Moyes and tons of different things. He's also a musician, and he's provided this for us for into the future.
So let us know what you think. We're pretty excited about this. It'll make our music aspect of the show much, much easier going forward.
Other housekeeping. The book is selling really well, and there's about another week and a half of pre-sales available, which gets you free shipping. And then after that, it'll be a little bit more expensive, or you'll have to get it through your local school, which we encourage. There's 10 or so schools around the world that have a whole bunch shipping out to them now. Everything got delayed with that huge container ship getting stuck in the Suez for over a week. I don't know if ours were on that, or if that was just part of it. I don't know if ours were on the delay, but you might have seen that newsletter come out from cross country. That was kind of amusing. So things are a little delayed there, but I've got mine copied, just arrived yesterday on my desk. And you might have seen a bunch of the folks that are in the book that provided so much to it.
They've also been putting out some really fun posts about it. So it came out great. It's a beautiful piece of work that cross country put together and tons of good advice. So go to xcmag.com forward slash shop to find it and get your pre-order. And you'll get it here very, very shortly, as soon as that bottleneck in the Suez clears. My guest today is Urs Hari, Swiss legend. He's been at this game for over 30 years. Got into sailplanes when he was really young after watching his father fly RCs and models and that kind of thing. And legend, multiple world championship podiums and Europeans and World Cups. And we get into a couple of pretty scary incidences he had, including landing in a lake in Verbier, where he spends a lot of his time.
And getting away from the sport for a while, coming back to it. He is also the head of High Adventures. They invented the Beamer Rescue. And really got to go check out the show notes to this one, because he's got a bunch of videos of him testing reserves and cutaway systems and disabling the glider. I learned a ton just from watching these, how reserves work, how they deploy, the speed. He does it all over the ground in a place where there's lots of homes and power lines and that kind of thing. So really valuable there, those videos are. So most of the time he's doing his testing, but he gets out for five, six, seven XC flights a year. And in that time has won, I think, five now Swiss Challenge Cups.
So this is the XC Challenge Cup, and that's in the sport class. He now does that on the B, because he just doesn't have the hours anymore to compete on the high aspect gliders. And so, but that's a heck of an achievement with the Swiss. So this guy has been at it and done really well for an awfully long time. There's lots of stories about Urs racing over here in the early days in the Owens and stuff. And we had a blast with this talk. Lots here. I think you're going to enjoy it and check out the show notes. There's also a lot more there. And if you haven't had a chance yet, go back and listen to the episode with Robbie Whittall. I'm getting a ton of feedback on this one.
Very, that was just, that was a precious talk and we both really enjoyed it. And we've had some fun chats since then, just with all the feedback. So if you missed that one, make sure you check it out. A lot of fun. Today's top of the show tip comes from Kevin Brooker. A sailplane pilot we've had on the show and a regular listener who reached out to Nick and I after the show we recently did together specifically about one of my responses, which was basically more hours. And he pointed out very accurately that all hours are not the same. And he's been kind of a student of how the brain learns and how we better ourselves. But specifically.
How the brain is geared towards fear and, and, and stress and being in difficult situations. And so he, he, he reached out to us some with some really interesting thoughts and Nick sent him a microphone and they sat down for well over an hour to discuss this and many other things, which was fascinating. And so we're going to use just a couple of quick hits from that. And we're going to talk in this top of the show tip here. The first is on the, how we need to approach sledders and how valuable they can really be. And certainly as we get better, we tend to blow the sledder off and, and Kevin has a pretty good case for why we shouldn't do that and how, how sledders can be incredibly valuable.
And the second is wing choice and why a really good pilot on a, on the lower end wing. Will. Outclass a pilot on a hotter wing who's not as good. And so this is really valuable information on choosing a wing. Enjoy.
We'll start off with this idea that you said that not all days are great flying days. Some days are sledder days and most people miss those. Can you talk a little bit about what someone could do on a sledder day? Yeah. I think sledder days are some where some of the largest learning opportunities come in because you're flying and everything that that wing does. Yeah. Is from your input and it's a really great time to learn the wing. You can see how your input affects it without having the wind or lift or anything bump it around. So whatever situation you end up in is caused by you. And it's a great time also to learn how to get off the ground, learn how to get on the ground and then play with the wing in the air. See how, you know, applying different control inputs makes the wing react and you're gathering a ton of information.
That's going to become valuable later on when things are bouncing around. So as you slow the wing down, how does the handling come as you get closer and closer to a stall? Does it get mushy? Does it do something unexpected? And without something like the weather giving you input, you can really start to feel that. So as you're flying in more stout conditions, that same idea is used. The wing might start to feel kind of mushy and you're like, oh, on a dead sledder day. This is how it felt as it was approaching a condition. Which was not favorable. So you can pick up a lot of that information, which again allows you to use more of the hundred percent of the performance of that wing. And you're more in touch with feeling how it's going. So you're not worrying about it as much, you know.
And again, there'll be different inputs. But when the wing feels mushy and doesn't want to do its thing because you've upset it, it feels mushy. It doesn't matter if you're going really fast or really slow. You'll feel that same, I don't know, it feels unhappy is probably the best way to put it. And it's also a great time to start calibrating your glide computer. There's no wind, there's no lift to screw it up. So if you're, you know, getting five to one or six to one in any condition, it's a good time to actually see, you know, oh, I should be able to go from here to here and I should lose 500 feet. Did it work out? You know, do I lose more turn? You know, you're always going to be going down. Do I lose more energy circling to the left or to the right? You know, and if you do, why?
What do you do that's different? We all probably have a preferred direction to turn in. And you can start to learn all these things. So that gives you, again, picking up little pieces of performance as you go. And it's a time where you can be more spot on with landings. You know, put the thing right down where you want to put it. And, you know, really learn the subtleties of how it feels. I know in the sailplane, you know, there's a, when you would, it would yaw around when you'd get in lift and you'd get in different things. And just going really slow, you get to see that. And, you know, how does the control input make it do things? And I learned a lot about how the flight computer works to where I could start to trust it, you know, not quite blindly. But a dead day is a great day to learn about how you interact with the wing because there's nothing there that affects that other than you.
Love it. Love it. Okay, you've talked about this. You mentioned it a couple times, but I'd like to jump into it further, is that pilots choose wings in order to protect themselves or to impress others. They want the speed or the safety or whatever they want.
You've mentioned this idea of kind of being able to use some percentage of the wing. Can you go through how you think about using the percentage of the wing in your skill versus the wing's ability?
Yeah, so there's, in the general bell curve, of the flight envelope, right, there's a certain area where it's pretty easy to fly. You know, in a good day, it does what it's going to do. And this is going to be a little bit rambly. So if you put two different pilots on the same aircraft, on the same wing, you're going to have two different results.
And, you know, becoming comfortable with what the glider does is really important because when you get into a realm that you don't understand the input the glider's giving you or something feels different, we get nervous and we get scared. And fear is there. It's always going to be there. And we will resort back to, revert back to, an area of comfort. And a lot of times it's understanding what that wing is doing lets you stay in that slightly discomfort zone a little bit more. And I'm not saying a risky zone or anything like that, but something where the glider's doing something you're not used to. It might be, you know, flying slower or some input it's getting and you need to squeeze that little bit of input.
You're squeezing a little bit of extra performance out of that wing. You know, how it goes faster. When you're in a still day, you know, how does putting the speed bar on affect things? How does it affect the way it feels? How does it affect the way it turns? How does it affect a lot of things? And, you know, the time when you have to go fast, if you're just not used to doing that, just in general when it's flat, on a stronger day, when you may want to move fast between in the sink, right? You want to get between the lift from one lift source to the next as quickly as possible. Even though the sink rate is higher, you still have to get used to understanding that you're going to get there. And if you get nervous, we tend to slow down. So we stay in the sink longer and we sink out faster.
And it's really understanding how that aircraft flies so that you can maximize that. You can maximize every piece of it and get everything out of it. That's within your comfort zone. And some people are willing to push closer and closer and closer to the edge where it doesn't want to fly well, you know. And it's discovering that where's that place for you so you can get the most out of it. And even a lesser aircraft will be flown better by somebody who's super comfortable with it than somebody who's not as competent on a higher performance rig.
And for now, enjoy the show. Enjoy this great talk with Urs Harri.
Urs, what a pleasure. I was really excited. I got the press release from Till about yet another Swiss Cup victory for yourself. And about the same time, my buddy and ski buddy and flying partner and I know someone you know well back from your World's Days and all that, Nate Scales, he's my neighbor. And he reached out at the same time. He said, you got to talk to Urs. He's been at this forever. You got to talk to Urs. He won the Swiss Cup yet again. And he hardly ever gets a chance to fly. And so I'm humbled and excited to talk to you. And I thought a really fun place to start in your email kind of introduction that kind of lays out your 30 years of flight. You talk about your work with High Adventure. This is your company.
You invented the Beamer, which I didn't know. And you sent me a bunch of links to your video work, which is phenomenal. I don't know how you do that camera work when you're throwing reserves in the air. And all this stuff. It's really well done. So we'll have all those links in the show notes. But I wanted to start with your reserve work. I realize we're starting at the opposite end. That's very much current, what we're doing now. And then we'll dive back into the history of it. But tell me about High Adventure and throwing your reserve. I want to talk, just get people more excited about throwing their reserves because you obviously do it all the time. Yeah. Hi, Gavin. It's an honor to me talking to you. Thank you very much for the opportunity. Well, we found High Adventure in the early 90s, 94.
And we were, or we still distribute Nova paragliders and some other brands. But at that time, we also worked already on the first Rogalo reserve parachutes. We received one from our manufacturer in Korea. And those were some chutes. They were jumping off the airplanes at that time to 1917. And in 1980, they had a short period where they used Rogalo chutes between the round ones and the square canopies now. And that's how everything began. And you're, and again, I want to really encourage people to see these videos.
But you're doing all your testing over the ground. And you've got amazing systems, you know, these cutaway systems. And I wanted to just talk about how you've developed your process for testing. And what should the listeners know about throwing their reserve? Because you're obviously about as comfortable with doing it as a very, very seasoned acro pilot. I loved watching them. They're just, they're very educational. Yeah. Well, you know, at the beginning, we started to test everything above water, for sure, because we were not experienced at all. And then when the Rogalo chutes came, when we started to test them, it was so much easier.
The sink rate was much better, much lower. And so we started to do tests above ground. Also, you know. Preventing the fabric and the lines from shrinking. And we didn't lose that much time in between the different tests. We didn't have to wait until the canopy dried out again for repacking and all these things. So we were pretty fast doing the tests with this first Rogalo chute. Because we just, you know, we went up and down. We did even a few tests per day.
And we were really very fast with this. And then later on, when we started to test regular reserve parachutes, like hemispherical ones, round ones. And even now in the last few years, the square chutes. We started to test them also, you know. In the wintertime, we landed on the ground. But I'm getting older, man. And, you know, it hurts. 5.5 meters per second if you hit the deck. It's not so nice. Especially if you do it once or twice a day. So I started, you know, thinking about a system where we can use the advantage of the steerable Rogalo reserve parachutes.
Which are... Which have bigger surfaces, lower sink rates. And you can avoid flying into an obstacle. I just started to combine the experience I've made during skydiving. I was a skydiver for a short time. And I knew these three-ring systems. And, you know, the cutaway system of your main chute. If you had a problem when you had to pull the reserve. And that's how we finally ended up with this design. And it works really well. Can you tell me... Let's clarify.
Are there misconceptions about the Rogalo? For example, I was... I have always been told that, you know, if you're flying in a comp and you've got two reserves. Maybe have your Rogalo as your primary. And a square or round as your secondary. And then let's talk about the difference between square and round. And your preferred reserve. But I have been told that if you're quite low to not go with the Rogalo. Go with one of the others. Because you're not going to be able to get it into steering mode fast enough. Is that a misconception? Yes, for sure. Because the way we designed our Rogalo reserve parachutes. Is that you don't have to steer them.
So they come in a pre-braked brake setting. So steering is just, you know... It's more like the freestyle program. That's how I call it in my safety clinics. When I teach really beginners for the first time. When they throw a reserve. When they show up with a Rogalo reserve. And they also use cutaway systems. Or like quick out carabiners and all this kind of stuff. I never let them do... To cut away their glider. Before they are not in the situation to fly.
Combined or connected to their main paraglider. Because what... This is a misunderstanding. Because most of people think I have a steerable reserve now. And if something happens... They throw their reserve. And the first thing is they focus completely on their cutaway system. They don't look at their paraglider.
They don't take care about their paraglider. Because sometimes it's really important that you... That you prevent it from... Still from flying or from disturbing. So the procedure is always the same. I tell them that they have to prevent their paraglider from flying. Before they do something else. If they have their paraglider under control.
Then they can try to steer. They don't have to cut away. This is also something... People didn't understand at all. The ones who never tried this before.
The focus always has to be on the paraglider first. If you are under a regular reserve chute. A square one or a round one. It doesn't matter. All you want to do is bring the system to under control. Right? Yeah. And you're doing that in your videos. It looks like just incredibly easy. I mean, you just... You reach up and you grab, you know, your B's or your C's. Whatever's the last cascade and the wing you're flying. And just pull it down. And it's often just a... And then you just hold them with one hand. I've noticed. It looks very easy to just kill the glider.
Yeah. You know, that's... If you do it, you are prepared. And you know exactly what... What will come. Or you think that this could come next. So you are prepared. I mean, if it's in a real situation. If you're under stress. If there's a lot of valley wind or strong thermals, whatever. A lot of adrenaline.
Sometimes it's difficult, you know. And to be honest, if you have a huge twist in your system. If you... If your risers are twisted up four or five times. Or the lines are twisted up four or five times. Then it's not that easy anymore. You know, I have videos where one can see that I couldn't release the glider. I was testing a prototype. So I had to release my glider because it was over ground. Plenty of obstacles around power lines and all these things. So, you know, that's when you need a cutaway knife. I just cut off everything. But normally, this is... To come back to your first question.
The procedure is the same for everybody. You have to throw the reserve. And then you have to check that it's open. That's the next checkpoint. When it's open, you take care about your pattern glider. So it doesn't matter if you have a steerable or a non-steerable reserve. The good thing about our Rogalo shoots is that they open very fast. Because the packing is completely different. Their form is different. So they inflate much faster. And they have a much bigger surface area.
So they are 30 % bigger than the modern ones. And they're not as strong as the modern reserve parachutes. So that's for me personally the two strongest arguments for that kind of design. And that's a very important argument if you are close to the ground. Fast opening. And the larger surface makes the descent rate decreasing, smaller. And then if you have time. If you are trained. I mean you got to have to try this at least once. So you will see how it works. You just grab with one hand one brake handle.
And you pull it. And since it's pre-braked, the opposite side is still under brakes. So you can steer with one hand. Right or left. By going off the brake. Then it pulls to the other side. By pulling down the brake. It pulls to the opposite side. The cutaway system takes another action. One more action. And you have to be really trained in this.
Then after you prevent your glider from flying. You have got everything under control. To release the main glider with quick out carabiners or something. It's a good option if you are high. Or I would say even in a competition. I would not fly in a competition with 30 other pilots in the same thermal. The risk of a tangle is pretty high. So there I would definitely recommend to fly with a cutaway system. So if you get tangled to another paraglider pilot. You just cut off. Goodbye. And you just use the full potential of a steerable reserve.
But everything before is not focused on the cutaway system. That's my tip to everybody. Yeah. So there's two things here with the regalo. Because in one of your videos you showed that. You wrapped up. You pulled out the regalo. And you just had it in your hand. And you twisted it a bunch of times. And then you threw it. And then you just steered it with one. And that's not something I ever knew about. So that's. I want to make sure everybody understands that. That you can just steer it with one. One toggle. And then the other is. What about. It sounds like. So if it's in the braked position. Will it not turn down. Because I've heard.
The problem with regalos. If there's a lot of wind. Is they can turn downwind. And you can start accelerating. Beyond what. If you don't have it in steering mode. It can go downwind. And go too fast. So that sounds like another misconception. If it's in the braked. If it's packed correctly. And it's braked. It's just basically coming down like a square. Correct. Okay. What happens. Quite often. When I do my tests. Just next to the company. It's in a small valley. From noon. We have a pretty strong valley wind. When we do tests. And when I. Test regalo shoots. When you have your main. Pedal glider under control.
You know. You just.
You just drag it. Behind you. Because you have. The forward speed. Is so little. You know. When. We found out. During the last. Few years. That. The difference. In forward speed. Of a square. Or a square round canopy. Compared to. To our. Big. Regalo shoots. Is like. Three to four. Kilometers. An hour. It's really. Just a little. A bit higher. But. When you drag. Your. Pedal glider. Behind you. This. Is like. A. Spin actor. Like. Does. That. Sounds. Familiar. To you. Yeah. Sure. I'm a sailor. Yeah. Of course. So. It's like. A spin actor. You know. It turns. You around.
So. All. Those. Stories. That. You. You. You. You. It turns. You. Automatically. With. The wind.
And. It. It. Pulls. You. Around. It. Pulls. You. Actually. Into. The. Wind. If. You. If. You. Disconnect. Your. Main. Glider. I mean. Then. You. Have. Two. Brake. Lines. If. You. Steer. You. Decide. Where. You. Gonna. Land. If. You. If. You. Don't. Do. Anything. You. Mind. End. Up. Flying. Whistling. For. Sure. That's. That's. That. Can. Happen. But. You. Still. Have. More. Options. Compared. To. A. Regular. Reserve. What. Do. You. Personally. Fly. With. When. You're. You. Know. When. You're. Going. XC. What. What's. Your. Kit. What's. Your. Harness. And. What. Are. Your. Reserves. I'm. Flying. Pot. Harness. From. From. Woody. Valley.
And. XR7. And. My. Primary. Reserve. Is. Beamer. 3. Light. The. Big. One. We're.
Flying.
All. Those. Pilots. Flying. In. In. High. Altitude. To. Really. Go. For. A. Large. Surface. Reserve. Parachute. Because. Sync. Rate. Will. Will. Increase. With. Altitude. And. The. Backup. Reserve. Is.
Okay. Tell. Me. About. Sync. Rate. That's. An. Important. One. I. Think. With. The. With. High. Can. Fly. Becoming. Such. The. Rage. And. Really. Really. Light. Gear. I. Think. Many. People.
Maybe. Are. Compromising. Quite. A. Bit. On. Safety. I. Mean. I. Know. All. Of. My. Buddies. And. The. X-Alps. We. All. Do. This. But. Consciously. You. Know. We've. All. Got. The. Lightest. Round. You. Can. Possibly. Get. And. And. You. Know. But. The. Synch. Rate. Is. Is. Pretty. High. And. In. When. You. Get. Up. What. What. The. Number. The. Magic. Number. Where. You. Really. Start. Getting. Hurt. I've. Always. Been. Told. At. Six.
Well. That's. That's. A. Difficult. Question. Because. It. Depends. A. Lot. Of. The. Terrain. Where. You. You. You. Hit. The. Deck. You. Know. If. It's. If. It's. A. Steep. Grass. Alpine. Meadow. You. Just. Walk. Away. With. Six. Six. Meters. Per. Second. But. If. You. If. You. Hit. A. Rocky. Face. You. Know. Or. A. Cliff. Or. Something.
No. No. Good. News. So. You. Know. The. Thing. Is.
That. You.
A. Canopy. Tested. For. Like. Let's. Say. Five. Point. Five. Meters. Per. Second. And. It. Allows. You. To. Carry. It's. It's. Been. Certified. With. 120. Kilos.
It's.
The. Same. Sink. Rate. You. Can. Hook. In. Around. 90. Kilos. So. You. Are. Already. 30. Kilos. Under. The. Limit. And. You. Still. Think. With. Five. Point. Five. Meters. Per. Second. If. There. Is. No. Wind. If. There. Are. No. Thermals. That's. Important. Information. Right. And.
So. That's. The. Point. You. Know. If. You. Guys. On. During. The. Ex. Alps. If. If. You're. Really. Going. To. The. Limit. You. And. If. A. Sketch. In. An. Altitude. Of. Two. Or. 3000. Meters.
You. Got. To. Have. A. Chance. To. Land. On. A. Really. Steep. Meadow. Otherwise. You. Are. Probably. Out. Of. Business. For. That. Race. Yeah.
Something's. Gonna. Snap. Or. Break. Or. Certainly. Get. Awful. Sore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And. You. Know. Five. 5.5. Meters. Per. Second.
I. I. Did. It. Quite. Often. When. I. When. I. Tested. Those. Kind. Of. Reserves. You. Know.
And. The. Area. There. Are. No. Obstacles. Around. So. I. Just. Save. Me. The. Packing. From. The. Roll. System. So. I. Just. Land. On. The. Prototype.
And. You. Know. When. I. Younger. It. Was. No. Problem. I. Just. You. Know. It. Hurt. A. Little. Bit. The. Muscles. Were. A. Little. Bit. Tight. Next. Day. But. Now. I. Did. It's. Two. Or. Three. Years. Ago. And. I. Had. To. Visit. The.
Shiro. Proctor. The. Next. Day. It's. Really. Hurt. You. Know. I. Really. Hurt. Myself. Nothing. Was.
A.
Difference.
I. Can. Say. That. From. My. Own. Experience. And. You. Have. Much. Much. More. But. It. Is. Really. A. Huge. Difference. And. It's. You. Know. I. Think. The. PLF. And. All. These. Kind. Of. Things. Are. Really. Important. But. You're. Often. In. These. Weird. Situations. Where. You. Know. Doing. A. Proper. PLF. Is. Kind. Of. Tricky. You. Know. Stuff's. Batten. Around. And. There's. You. You're. You're. Either. Oscillating. Or. You. Know. Something. Is. Going. On. But. I. Do. Really. Appreciate. The. Cutaway. Remark. Because. It. Seems. Like. And. You've. Got. More. Experience. Certainly. Than. I. Do. But. It. Seems. Like. The. Accidents. These. Days. In. Comps. Are. Coming. More. And. More. From. Mid. Airs. Than. They. Are. From. You. Know. Back. In. The. Day. It. Was. It. Was. Gliders. Blowing.
Up. And. They. Don't. Really. Blow. Up. Anymore. Certainly. They. Get. In. Trouble. As. Always. But. But. It. Seems. Like. A. Lot. Of. The. A. Lot. Of. The. Real. Tragic. Accidents. Are. Happening. From. Mid. Airs. And. If. You. Know. I. With. Cutaways. I've. Only. Ever. Used. Them. With. With. Acro. And. I. I've. Known. I've. Needed. To. Make. That. Switch. But. I'm. Glad. You. Said. That. Because. Your. Your. Videos. Make. It. Real. Clear. That. That's. An. Awful. Nice. Way. To. Go. Just. It's. Gone. And. Here. You. Go. You're. Under. Your. Nice. Regalo. And. You. Can. Steer. It. In. Yeah. And. Even. That. Even. I. Think. You. Know. All. Those. Guys. Trying. To. Set. New. World. Records. Or. Even. For. Us. When. We. Land. In. In. A. Steep. Valley. And. There.
Is. Still. You. If. Land. Too. Early. And. There's. Still. Strong. Valley. Wind. Or. As. I. Said. The. Guys. In.
Brazil. It's. Yeah. I. I. Spent. A. Weeks. In. Texas. This. Summer. Trying. To. Break. The. World. Record. With. Donna's. That. Day. And. Cody. And. A. Few. Other. Really. Good. Pilots. And. Had. Some. Real. Interesting. Landings. You. Know. It's. Cactus. And. Mesquite. And. Stuff. You. Don't. Want. To. Stabbed. Into. And. You. Know. Of. Course. All. Roads. Are. Perpendicular. To. The. Wind. I'm. Sorry. Yeah. Perpendicular. To. The. Wind. They're. Not. Parallel. With. The. Wind. So. You. Really. Had. To.
Stab. You.
Know. All. Kind. Of. Different. Systems. We. Have. All. The. Modern. Reserves. They. Are. Working. Very. Well. You. Know. The. Systems. Out. There. They. Are. Good. What. I.
Quite.
A. Recommend. It's. Another. Recommendation. After. All. These. Experiences. That. People. Just. Don't. Take. Enough. Care. Of. That. Complete. Of. Their. Complete. System. And. I. Really. Highly. Recommend. To. Everybody.
That. Problem. Up. There. And. The. Time. Is. Running. You. Know. If. You're. Close. To. The. Ground. There. Is. No. Room. For. Taking. Decisions. For. Too. Long. Time. You. Know. You. It. It's. A. Procedure. Which. Should. Come.
From. Your. Deep. Inside. It. Should. Be. In. Your. Awareness. And. Or. Urines. In. Your. Subconscious. And. Every. Single. Move. Should. Be. In. There. Programmed. In. Your. Muscles. In. Your. Subconscious. Like. You. Know. The. Sky. Divers. They. Practice. This. I. Miss. This. On. The. In.
My. Following. Matt Wilkes. Is. He's. Has. A. Group. Of. They've. Been. Doing. A. Lot. Of. Simulations. And. Studies. The. Last. Couple. Years. With. Reserves. And. So. Much. You. Know. This. Reserve. Over. That. Reserve. But. Just. Put. Pilots. In. Stress. In. The. Simulator. And. See. What. Happens. And. You. Know. There's. A. Pretty. High. Number. Of. People. That. Never. Get. To. It. You. Know. And. It's. It's. It's. Real. Fascinating. This. Freeze. Or. Flight. Syndrome. And. And. How. People. React. Under. Stress. And. When. Fear. Is. Involved. And. And. Just. Not. Being. Able. To. Get. To. The. Handle. You. Know. There. The. Brain. And. The. Hand. Don't. Link. Up. And. And. You. If. Don't. Have. It. As. An. Automatic. I. Mean. I. Think. This. Is. One. Of. The. That. The.
Acro. Pilots. Just. Really. Have. Down. Because. They. Throw. It. So. Much. And. Like. Watching. Your. Videos. To. Me. It's. Just. An. Encouragement. To. Do. It. Because. It's. Clearly. It. Works. And. It's. Not. That. Stressful. And. If. You. Have. That. Kind. Of. Muscle. Memory. I've. Been. Encouraging. People. On. The. Show. We've. Been. Talking. About. This. Quite. A. Bit. It's. Just. Every. Time. You. Fly. Make. A. Habit. Of. That. Do. It. With. Your. Right. Hand. Do. It. With. Your. Left. Hand. Come. Up. With. A. System. So. When. You're. Suddenly. In. Some. Kind. Of. Weird. You. Know. S. I. V. Situation. Or. Cascade. It's. Not. Something. You. Have. To. Really. Think. Through. It's. Just. An. Automatic. You. Just. Go. Go. Do. It. Exactly. And. Matt. Did. Really. Brilliant. Job. With. His. Work. That's. That. Was. A.
Hopefully. An. Eye. Opener. For. A. Of. Pilots. Out. There. Yeah. That's. Terrific. Well. Don't. Let. Me. Abandon. This. Subject. If. Have. More. To. Say. But. I. Would. Love. To. Dive. Into. Your. History. And. I. Thought. You know. You've. Done. This. Terrific. Job. Of. Your. Email. Was. Great. I've. Read. It. Several. Times. Now. Fascinating. History. And. I. Thought. I. Just. Let. You. Let. You.
Tell. Me.
How.
To. Do. This. Is. Really.
Critical. You. You. You're. Definitely. Learning. Something. Even. From. Just. Watching. Our. Sea. Planes. That. That. Becomes. Part. Of. Your. Skill. Repertoire. It. Seems. Like. Yeah. I. Mean. Flying. Is. A. Fascination. And. If. You. Get. Into. Contact. With. It. So. Early. When. When. You're. Even. When. You're. A. Kid. When. You're. Very. Young. You're. Out. There. You. Know. You're. In. The. Nature. And. You. Know. At. That. Time. When. When. When. We. Were. There. On. The. Slopes. There. Were. No. Handies. Nothing. No. No. Mobile. Phones. So. We. Were. We. Were. Not. Looking. Into. A. Screen. At. The. Screen. Where. We. Were. Observing. The. Gliders. You. Know. We. Were. Helping. Them. How.
To. Launch. Or. Or. We. Brought. Them. Back. When. They. Landed. Somewhere. Else. And. And. You. Know. You. You. Look. At. The. Birds. You. Look. At. How. They. How. They. Fly. Around. You.
Have. Traces. For. Sure. And. So. Was. Your. Was. Your. Father. Quite. Instrumental. Was. He. Was. The. Encouraging. Of. Flight.
Encouraging. Towards. Me. Or. Yeah. Yeah. Did. He. Did. He.
He. He. He. Not. Happy. And. You. At. That. Time. They. Really. They. Designed. Their. Own. RC. seaplanes and all these things there was a lot of work in there and uh so that was sometimes pretty hard um fights uh with between him and and and um us you know i have two two uh other brothers and even when i was uh when i became 16 you know that was time where we could um um where it was possible to make the license the sailplane license he never forced you know but we were so often we spent so much time on the on the uh airfield and
i was just i was interested my two older brothers they were not uh at all in in this but they started um uh paragliding earlier than i did later on but they were not interested into uh flying sailplanes but for me it was you know it was really cool and then um i started i started to um to learn it and yeah it sounds like your first wing was your your older brother's uh nine cell paraglider in 88 that's i've seen a few of those like you said it's it's basically proximity flying in slow motion that's exactly how it felt like yeah i was always i was you know i was always laughing at them because they started
i think they started something like 86 or something where the yeah first lucky strike open comps in verbier they they flew there and they flew every single weekend and when i saw them i was just for me it was a joke it was yeah i mean i mean this is kind of a funny thing but doesn't rogalo now doesn't one of your reserves have a better glide yeah yeah yeah something that's yes yeah and so you got into you uh but you got into it then it sounds like it really grabbed hold because you were you were competing in worlds and the world cup in san andre just two years later yeah i was i was uh really in afterwards you know when i when i found out that one could um
fly in turbos with those gliders at that time i mean i modified you know i made it slower i trimmed it and i put some some handles on the on the biggie riser to slow it down in the in the thermal even like uh and there was just a and b's at that time like the two liners today and i was just psyched when you know when i saw people going up on on those pieces of fabric and the simplicity and and um yeah you could just go all over and that's when i got into it really uh really deep yeah that was yeah this is going to sound quite ridiculous but you know in the states here we don't have nearly the numbers you know you don't see paragliders at the top of every mountain like you do in europe and a buddy of mine had gotten into flying in kind of the mid 90s tiger mountain near seattle very famous site here in the states and he used to beg me to get into it and i would go out to the lz and and watch and i just saw all these people floating around on these colorful wings and i thought it's kind of neat but i had no idea that you could go anywhere i just thought they can't went off the mountain and most of them did they just went off and they flew around and then they landed at the lz i just thought it looked really boring and it wasn't really until i saw my first x helps that i thought wait what what what are these people doing they're traveling by air yeah i just i i didn't realize it for a decade i didn't realize it yeah yeah you know at that time when you know 88 89 uh it really it really went fast afterwards you know um
every new glider uh it was just plus one one glide ratio you know so they were really dangerous but but but um the um the plus in in in um in in uh um bite ratio was it was amazing each beach new glider flew so much better that uh it went so much so fast you know like two years or three years later we were flying 150 kilometers with them yeah and you you broke an early record i don't have that up in front of me but in the in the press release uh i mean in the early 90s didn't you break a record that was 200 and something k it was just i mean i
wasn't flying back then but that must have been just an absurd number back at the time yeah that was at the time that i think the previous world record was 147 something like that done by xavier remo we we used to compete uh together a french very well-known french pilot and i have to say that just a few weeks before i did my world record uh that that andrew smith you probably the name sounds familiar to you yeah it's a really uh old legend unfortunately he already uh left us he did uh the first flight over 200 kilometers uh just a few weeks before i think he was also 220 or even uh or even more but um i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know unfortunately uh he did not documented it at that time you know you had to i think it's pretty much still the same today but you have to take pictures and before takeoff you need a barograph and all these things was a lot more difficult or more complicated than it is today but um yeah that was that was really i was i was uh the rock star at that time you know yeah i was getting out you're You're, I mean, I see this, this rock star that, you know, in that era, I mean, I recently talked to Robbie Whittall and that show will be out here pretty soon.
And just the parties just sounded like a very different, you know, you go to a, you go to a World Cup these days, they're pretty serious. Oh, gosh, I, you know, I tell you, you won't believe it, Kevin, but I mean, in, in, during the Worlds in San André, 91, I think we were, we were twice, we came back at four o 'clock in the morning from Vinnia. We had such a good time there. And a year later on during the European Championship in Slovenia, I made it one day directly. From the nightclub to the, to the breakfast, and then right into the, into the microbus to drive up to take off.
It was crazy. So that when you, when you write that these are the flashy full body preservatives. Yes, exactly. Exactly. You know, you know, just, you know, Richard Gallon, all this, all these guys, Andy Hediger, Robbie Whittall these people. You know, that was really, wasn't, it was serious, but it wasn't as, no, it was far away compared to the professionality from today. Today, today, that's, that's not, wouldn't be a good idea anymore. Yeah. And I mean, you had, you had a lot of success in the next few years. There was the Europeans and World Cups, and that must have been an exciting time.
Everybody's flying prototypes, right? Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. That was that time. It's scary to think of going straight from the bar to the hill and on those gliders. They're a little different. Well, maybe it made. Maybe you're more relaxed. It made it easier sometimes.
Yeah, more relaxed. Exactly.
Then, then, then it gets a little darker after that. It had some downsides. You're, tell me about, you had a couple of really close calls. Yeah, I had, I had one just before the Worlds in Verbier, but that was, that was during the, the real good times, you know, but I had a, a near death experience just, I think, two months before the Worlds in Verbier. I visited a flight school just next, next around the corner, and I flew over the lake and did some maneuvers with my, with my glider. I flew two months later on during the Worlds, and just, you know, nothing serious, just a few collapses, and I just, I just got this cravat, small little cravat, and
that was at that time, you know, it was kind of new. We, we knew it, it, it can happen, but we, we didn't know exactly what to do afterwards, and, and, you know, I spiraled down. It was like three and a half, four meters per second. It was really nothing serious, but I could not hold it to fly straight back to the, to the LZ, and, you know, when I checked the sink rate, I thought, ah, I'm not going to throw the reserve because I, I'm going to, I'm going to land into the water, so it's, it's going to be, I can stall it just before and land pretty, pretty safe, but what I completely,
didn't have on my radar is that when I was in, in the water, you know, I started to swim, and I thought, well, my friends are around, you know, there was the, the instructor with his, with his beginners, he, he was on the hill, and there were other pilots around, but nobody saw me. So I was there in the air, maybe a hundred meters away from, from the, from the shore, and after seven or ten minutes, I found myself, like, in, in, in a forest jacket, you know, I was just, I couldn't move my legs anymore, my feet, everything, I was just, like, tangled, and in the water, like, like,
I don't know, like a sausage there, I could not do anything anymore, and I was really, it was an experience, I gave up. I went, I went under the water, and there was this fisherman sitting on his, on his, on his balcony, having lunch, and he saw me, and he came and, and pulled me off the water, so that was, that was one, but at that time, I could easily put this away, I don't know how, but, you know. You mean mentally put it away, didn't bother you? Mentally put it away, yeah, I was, like. I couldn't, I didn't sleep that well the next few, few nights, but when I went to Verbier, I was ready again, no fear, you know, and.
Did you have any kind of, Ernst, when, when, when you gave up and kind of went under the water, was there any kind of, I had a, I had a somewhat similar incident kayaking down in, in, in Mexico a whole bunch of years ago, where, you know, it was beyond the panic stage. I'd, I'd been underwater so long. Then I'd swallowed so much water that it was, it was like, okay, well, that, that's it, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm dead, and it was incredibly calm for a little while. Yeah. Just, but then there was this voice in the back of my head that, well, wait a minute, you're, you got to do something, and can you talk about more about, was there any kind of, okay, well, that's it, I, I guess that's it for me. Yeah, the thing is, the thing was, you know, I was really, at the beginning.
I was very relaxed, because I thought, I can swim, I'm not far away from the shore, so let's, let's swim to the shore. And then when I, you know, every, every minute started to get worse, you know, and when I realized that, that no, no one will come and help me, then I started to panic. I started to panic so much, you know, I started to shout, to cry. I started to, to whistle, and until I got completely powerless. And then the same happened to me, like you just described it, you know, I mean, I was fighting until I couldn't, I had no power anymore.
Then there was this relaxing feeling coming back, you know, I was just like, it's, it's, you know, I really felt no fear anymore. I was completely. I was completely distressed, and I saw these lights too, I hear music, and I remember I had the, the, the thoughts that this is it, it's, it's, it's, it's over. I really finished at that time, at that moment, with my, with my life.
Yeah, so keep going. You said it, you said that it, it didn't really, but then he saved you. Yeah. And it didn't really change, it did, did it change your approach? Yeah, then, you know, then at the Worlds, I was in the leading gaggle on the first day when we flew back to Verbier.
And I had, in the last big thermal, just like maybe eight kilometers away from, from the Alzi up there in Verbier, I had in, in the lee side, collapsed again with the same glider. Same, same, same, like two months before a little, little cravat on the outer wingtip, it's went into a deep spiral. And I knew I have to, I have to throw my reserve now, you know? And I threw it. And when it was opened two seconds later, I hit the wall, I landed in the steep, rocky wall on.
Yeah. Yeah.
grassy grassy ledge and i was i was not hurt at all i was very lucky you know and then even that was not such a big problem for me i flew the next day again and i i catched from i think i was at the first day it was um over over the position 105 or seven and the second last day it was back under the first 10 i messed up the last the last task then but i just went all or nothing but um really what you um just said before in um during the millennium change at the beginning i split with my with my wife uh we were together for seven years we had two and a half years year old daughter and
that was just it was so tough for me that uh that time you know and the years that uh followed later on because we we were in a difficult situation we were um you know all that kind of stuff fighting to see the kids and uh um you know um that pulled me really down and that brought me completely to another lifestyle you know i was i was on the search for for answers for this because before as i said rock stars you know and uh we went from event to event we were uh i was successful i was successful in business at the same time also um my business did not run well everything came together you know so um new situation and
so uh we enjoyed um with our connection with our uh uh friends um and all our friends and um i i don't know and i don't think that's all that i can say i'm i'm a little bit lost at the moment so um the way it went it was a little bit difficult for me like i was i had some affairs and i was going through a lot of things to find it i kind of spent climbing mountains and i got this this experience with nature uh which gave me a lot um i could fill up my batteries i could find uh answers on my questions you know i did i didn't even hog trees and stuff you know i went into that direction and and it was really the only thing which um brought me back on track after after um three four years you know until until it gets really to normal life again if if i can say it like that was that was this period um marked by any kind of clinical depression was it was it uh you know was it the kind of thing it's just hard to get out of bed is you know i think there's
there's a lot of pilots that seem to suffer and maybe this is just society at large but it seems that this is really an ill with our family with our community and i think it's you know the the the adrenaline the risk the you know the the flying takes people that are that can be kind of manic out of that but when you're not here you suffer yeah i mean you know uh in you know looking back to that time i think there was um there was this break and and um the lack of of seeing seeing our kid and you know the fights um uh which which happens during those those kind of of things um is one thing and i think on the other on the other side there was also it was kind of um of um i think it's it was i was close or i was in a burn out it was close or i was in a burnout and my luck was really that um
that um i had the chance to to go out to to you know to go into nature and calm down and i was not in a therapy or something like that but i had good friends you know uh good good friends around flying friends where you know like i could talk and that was really important for me what was the reason during this period that you didn't fly did you just not feel like you had the right headspace for it or was it just the burnout you just didn't want you know after these accidents and you mentioned in your in your write-up you know obviously there was there was other accidents too you lost good friends um yeah was it just there
was just no no um desire anymore you know i had um i had no desire anymore you know i had no desire anymore you know i had no desire anymore there was actually nothing i was really uh i could get hooked into it again it was just i was just in the i think i was in the survival mode sure and that took enough energy so no energy for something something else and so this this period was was how long what what that took me it took me two years at least two or three years um you know and then then i started i i really made some good experiences with um you know meditation uh shamanism all this kind of uh i practiced all these things a little bit at that time and i also went on a trip my at that time i i really had a strong feeling for you know being along for some time but at the same time i really had a strong feeling for being along for a longer period, hiking through a country where I don't speak the local language, where I don't know everybody.
And that was a real, real good adventure for me. Really, that was one of my best experiences I've ever did when I went to Mongolia. In Mongolia, yeah. And at a time, you know, that was kind of before the big mining boom, as I understand it. I mean, I think it's still a very special place, but that would be a good place to heal, it seems like. It's just, there's nothing but nature. Yeah, exactly. Was the work you did with the shamans and that community, was that, were you experimenting at all with psychedelics? No. No, not at the beginning. I did that later, when I was stable again.
Yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did some later on, even the last few years. I did it twice, the Ayahuasca rituals. That was really also a good experience. But no, that was everything natural, natural experiences. It was really without all this. Yeah, that's the kind of stuff. Yeah, singing, singing, dancing, meditation, it works too. Uh-huh. Yeah. Is meditation now really a part of your kind of daily life? No. Okay. Or at least not aware or consciously, you know.
Yeah. I'm the kind of guy, I don't like too much. I don't like too much noise around me. I prefer the silence. Even when I was a kid, when I was 13, 14 years old, quite often I did ski tours, you know, hiking up with skis, skins underneath, to mountains. And I felt most comfortable when I did this by my own. Yeah. I need, I need my... I need my islands of silence, from time to time.
So I think that's where I, where I can, you know, refill my, my tank. So tell me about kind of coming back to flight. It sounds like in 2008, you, you, you came back to it. What was that? What was the impetus there? Was it just the curiosity came back? The desire came back? Yeah. The, I, I really felt, felt good. And I had some, some friends flying, in XC still, you know, it wasn't, it was, I didn't flew with that much XC when, when I was active, active pilot, I was more involved into competitions.
The world record was just, I gave it a try, but, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I didn't get the chance to do it. And also at the, at that time, I didn't, I can't remember when the, the GPS instruments came into, into the game, you know, the documentation of a cross country flying, loading up your track the same day or the next day, having a, a resort right away on the internet. That's, that brought me back. Yeah. um in two at 2008 or something and it was so fascinating for me because before you know that the last xc flights we did for the for the swiss cross country cup you had to declare the flight before takeoff you had to take a picture of yourself with the flight declaration you had to to take pictures of the turnpoints of the landing place you had to have a guy signing you that you have landed there was so complicated and then all of a sudden this freedom and i was in this i was in this um uh you know nature shamanic type of Denali was right in there and it gave me so much freedom in the air you know i was playing with my intuition and i could i could um i could follow my my my belly feeling and it was so much different to me that i just i just fall in love it was just uh like it was almost like the first flights we did we were just blasted you know it's
interesting that you had a quite a different experience than when i talked to robbie you know the reason he i mean he still flies but the reason he really kind of quit the the sport in a sense certainly that the competition and was was was actually the advent of all the instrumentation you know he recalls that how pure it was to just go by your gut and intuition and feel it all and now you've got instruments that tell you you can make goal and the alarm goes off and you know you you go on so it's you know it's become much more your flight deck is a lot more busy and he he he didn't like that yeah no not not for me for me um it got even better i think because you know i use uh for sure i use the instrument i use the FAI calculator because i want to i want to fly a big triangle an FAI triangle that's a great help you know i had it in in 2011 already i got in contact with they had no instruments for paragliding so i knew they have instruments for for for sailplane pilots and and a friend of mine showed me how it works and that um that was great and um i used the i used the instrument as before for vario and most of the time just the sound i don't look at the instrument and i use it for sure the real own distraction i've i would say right now for me is airspace uh restrictions this is really a big uh this is pain in the ass especially in switzerland the place where we fly you know you really have to be careful with that but all the rest you know for me it's much more um working with my um with my awareness subconscious um with my belly feeling i have much more time and room to follow my intuition as it was before because before you had all this to concentrate i need to go to that turn point i have to do it if i don't do it i miss i screw up the whole flight because uh if if you didn't make the turn point that was it
um and now you know you can play you can play your okay there let's let's fly another two k's uh no it's the other way around so i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm going to do it i'm still feeling it's still feeling great my power animals tell me go keep on going this is a good day you know and i think i have much more freedom compared to the time before for sure maybe in the competitions it got it got much more technique and i think if if if you don't know your instrument and all the settings um you you probably will never win the task that's that became very important tell me about your power animals and spirit helpers this sounds fascinating and certainly something i'm familiar with and in theory but i don't know you know i i've never explored this spiritual side obviously enough uh this sounds fascinating can you give us some more background on that and how you you utilize these to to fly so well yeah
you know they are just for me they are just helpers and they they just make my my flying life easier it's like friends flying with you you know and um
if you do a shamanic journey into the underworld uh you you that's where you you you try to to find a spiritual helper and most of the time those are animals power animals and then you work with them you travel with them especially if you are with kind of another kind of a brother or a sister or a during shamanic journeys, but they also can help you also here in our life during this time up here. And, you know, I talk to them like friends. And, you know, a typical flying day for me looks like I'm going to a takeoff place.
Anyways, I already prepared the flight. I know pretty much more or less what I'm trying to fly on that day. When I'm on takeoff, I try to find a place where I have a little bit privacy, not too many people around. I need that. That's very important for me. Most of the time I go with friends. But we go somewhere. It's not where another 50 pilots are, you know, sitting around and asking questions and all these things. So then before takeoff, I always visualize my flight in my mind's eye.
And I also ask for this plan to come true. So I'm more the visual type of guy. So I see. I see exactly the flight I want to do today. So I ask for that. So I ask my power animals. I ask them.
I do a small protection exercise. I always do this also before I do a reserve parachute test above ground. I do a kind of a protection exercise. For me. For me and for my soul.
And then when I take off. Before you move on, the protection exercise, can you give us some details? What does that look like? And then also give us some details on the visualization. Is that, you know, you're literally seeing yourself climb up or is it more you're just visualizing, okay, I'm starting here and I'm going to get there and kind of work down through your flight plan? Okay. Okay. Okay.
So the exercise I do before each, before such a flight or before a test flight is just an exercise I prepared for my own. So I ask, I ask for the protection of divine omnipotence and my spiritual self-rule. I just want to, I just want to try to stay all the time, my own, not to, to rule by someone else or whatever. You know? I want to, I want to be on my own and I also always say thank you to the elements that they protect me and I wish that the flight will come true, all this kind of things.
That, is that okay for the first part? Yeah, no, that's beautiful. I love it. And the second part is by visualizing my flight, it's, it's, I used to ski race when I was, when I was younger. You know, I grew up in a ski, ski area, ski resort. So, you know, what we learned there is that just before you go, before you start your, your ski race, you, you, you gotta have to know exactly where, where, um, where the gates are. You, you gotta have to know the line you, you wanna, you, you, you wanna, you wanna ski down. Sure. And I do exactly. Exactly the same for my flight.
I know, uh, today is a good day and my plan is, let's say an FAA triangle for 250 kilometers. I always try to stay realistic, you know, I, for sure. I push always a little bit. I wanna fly longer, but I try to stay realistic and, and believe me, gave in the last four or five years. I probably messed up two flights, but all other flights, they were like five or 10 % less or five or 10 % more. Than what you planned. What I planned. I really, it's really amazing. And then I just sit there and I visualize my flight, you know, the, I know the, the places now I, I don't have time to travel far away.
I mean, I, I, I do four. Yeah. Four or five, uh, cross country flights a year. So I go to, to places, uh, I know Switzerland now very well from the air. So I know the key points, the key, um, places. And, you know, I just try to, to see where I'm going to fly over the, over the main reach where I, where I will switch, uh, uh, the valley side and all these things. And I see me. I see me. I see me flying there. So for me, you know, what I've learned in, in the years before is that, or what I, what I learn every day is that, um, the, my energy follows my consciousness.
And by doing this, I really put positive thoughts, positive energy in all this. I, I do much more, I do also do, I also practice this then, uh, in flight during the flight, you know, when I work with the power. Yeah. And it really helps me to, to, uh, keep me always in a good mood. You know, I'm never, even if I, if, if I have, um, um, um, you know, what we call it, if, if we get stuck on the construction site, don't know the word in, in English, you know, if you, if you, if you can't move for half an hour or you, you, you don't climb up. Yeah. You get stuck. You get stuck.
Exactly.
Um, then I call my power animals or, or I sing, you know, or I just do something and I'm, I'm never pissed, you know, when I, when I'm in such a situation because, uh, um, I stay positive and, um, this is, I don't know if it really helps, but for me it works, you know, it keeps me always in a good mood. I mean, I think optimism is so key. It sounds like, it sounds like you've created. Uh, methods that just keep you very optimistic. Yeah. During the flight. You know, I think, you know, um, it, it works for me. Um, uh, everybody might have his own techniques. I mean, if you, if you talk to, to, uh, Thomas very lot, um, he might have, um, he might have another plan for you or, you know, so, um, but it's, it's really, it's really interesting.
And I really. I love this about cross country flying because I can, I can live my intuition and, and, um, and that's so great. It sounds like, it sounds like you've also created a nice system for really being present in what you're doing. I mean, I think that often, you know, when, when we look back at accidents kind of with 2020 hindsight, it, it, it often. Accidents often happen to folks who are dealing with something else in their life. They're not really there. They're there. Like you said, they're dealing with a, an ex or a spouse or the fight they had that morning or a bill or finance or just something, something is bothering him in their life.
And, you know, that, that when, when you make it one of those kind of obvious human mistakes, like forget to, to clip in or something, because you're just distracted. You're not, you're not really there. I guess, I guess in a sense. Uh, you know, when you only have time to have four or five or six cross country flights a year, you're going to put everything you can into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I also think, you know, that was probably the reason why I was not flying that much, uh, in the early, um, the early millennium years, you know, when I was really in a, in a, in a very bad mental situation. And, and, um, I'm sure that's where accidents.
Accidents, um, just, uh, happens, you know, Bruce, you've won the Swiss cup. Uh, you get to keep it. Now you've won it so many times. As I understand it since 2013. Do I have that right? You've won it five times. Always on an ENB. Just tell the folks who don't know what it is. Cause I'm actually not very clear what it is. What, what is the Swiss cup and how does it, how do you win it? We have, uh, here in Switzerland. Switzerland, the Swiss cross country competition.
So you guys all know the X-Contest, I think. Are you using it as well? Yeah. And is this like a league thing? It's X-Contest for the country, so I think it's your five or six best scores over the season? Exactly. So we have our ranking in Switzerland for that, and we have different categories in Switzerland, and it starts on the –
it used to be the fun and safety category. That was everything up to and included E and B. And then – And then you have the category sport that includes E and C gliders, and then you have the open category where you can fly open-class gliders. There's also the serial-class glider categories is in there. So I flew from these five years where I was winning that trophy, and I flew four years.
I flew in the E and B – E and A and E and B category. But I won in the standard category all the time. One year I flew with an E and C glider, and I also won the sport category. I mean, and you're not in Uruguay, buddy. You're in Switzerland.
You know, arguably the best pilots in the world. That's just incredible. And to – I mean, I'm not trying to make you red in the face right now, but to only fly four or five or six times a year for XC, I mean, I realize you're doing all the testing, so you're flying quite a bit. But to go big, you're only doing that a few times a year. And to win the Swiss, that's remarkable. And a shout-out to – well, let's talk about the wing choice.
Because you're mostly flying the Mentor, is that correct? Yes. And that's very inspiring that you're pulling off these big triangles on an E and B.
Yeah. You know, on the good days, I mean, that's my advantage. Being – I run the business, so I can leave. And I can leave, and there is a really good day inside. So that's for sure an advantage. If the conditions are good, you can do very well under an E and B glider here in the Alps. There are some disadvantages on big valley crossings.
Or if you fly low. If you have a long time with the wind, there's a big disadvantage on our – I call my glider, it's a pony, you know. It's not a racehorse. I call it a pony.
And the good thing also is that I can fly – on a good day, we fly 11 hours or even 11 and a half hours.
And under a two-liner. You need to be a very, very good pilot to being able to fly that long. And that was, you know, that was happen. I mean, back in 2013 or 2014, I don't remember exactly. I even won the open class in the Swiss ranking. I saw that. Yeah, you won everything that year on an E and B. And, you know, since then, finally. And, you know, those guys, that was a call. I mean, those guys, they did really great flights. You know, the hotshots in Switzerland.
We have so many good pilots and we have so many good pilots flying, working as a test pilot. And they are not afraid under those gliders. And they can fly 11 hours too. But, you know, they landed like 5 or 6 o 'clock in the afternoon. Where I was still flying another two and a half hours. So now they, as I said, it was a wake-up call. And now they dominate us for sure. You know, the cross country flying got very, very popular during the last few years. We built a cross country league in Switzerland.
And that's... That's... That was part of Martin Schell's idea, you know, to bring us as cross country pilots together with the competition pilots. And now this is, you know, this is a big cake now. And it's really a great source of exchanging experience and inspiring. And now, you know, the young guys, they are... They are hot, you know, they're pushing. And now we see really some excellent flights with open-class gliders now here in Switzerland. We have no chance at all anymore to get close to them.
I mean, we're still like 10 % behind them. Still good. But, yeah, I mean, I would love to fly such a... A wing. I mean, those are beauties, you know, but it's probably for my next reincarnation. I did want to ask you about that. I'm glad you touched on that because, you know, given your SIV experience, given your lifetime of experience and your comp experience, it must be awfully tempting.
You're not that old, Urs. I'm just behind you. Oh, okay. Okay. You think I should still... No, no, I'm actually... I
should still...
It's actually... No, no, but I mean, sure. But, no, I just mean it's... I mean, I think it's got to be tempting, but at the same time, it's also very inspiring that you're doing this on what you are.
Obviously, you've certainly found the sweet spot, but it's got to be tempting. Whatever I do, my philosophy is... It has to make fun. I really enjoy still flying. What I feel like now, you know, a few years ago, I was able to fly two times in a row. I mean, one day after the other for 11 and a half hours. I did some really great flights, but now this is not what I'm looking for anymore. I'm just... I'm just dead after an 11-hour flight. But so far, flying is still totally dialed in.
And last year, I started with kitesurfing. You know, there is this guy called Tony Bender. He told me three or four years ago, Urs, you've got to have to try foiling. He said, it's just an unbelievable feeling. And I live next to a lake. And last year, when this bloody lockdown came over, started over here, so I was sitting in front of our house. And all of a sudden, I saw this foil kite is out there. You know, it's a small lake, thermal conditions, not that strong.
Strong winds. But they were having so much fun. And then I knew, this is the call, you know. And then I just... A few weeks later, I went shopping. I just bought a board. I bought a harness. And I called some friends. And then I bought a kite.
And we went to France. As soon as the lockdown was over, we traveled to France. To... Yeah. Beautiful place to stay, to hike also. And I was down there with my wife. And I just taught a few lessons how to kite surf on just a normal board. And I was just dialed in right away. This was like, wow, this is cool.
And yeah, this is something new. So...
Let's see what will happen in the near future. Yeah, learning is where it's at, isn't it? Learning anything new is just so exciting. Yeah. Urs, I want to be mindful of your time. We're getting up close to our heart out here. So if you don't mind, I'd love to end on just a few kind of rapid fire questions that I got. We did a survey a few months ago on just, you know, how to make the podcast. Better and tapping into our listeners. And they provided a bunch of fun questions. So I just wanted to give you a few of these. You can answer them shortly or in long form, whatever you prefer. But what was the biggest aha moment you've had with paragliding?
The question is in the last year, but I'll just make that your whole career. Was there ever a moment where it was something just really clicked when you look back? Yeah, I think we were... I was already talking in this interview about it when I, you know, the place where I grew up, I knew from my experience as a sailplane pilot that where the thermals were and the glider started to perform so good that we were able to fly in the thermals. So I just hiked up the mountain. I launched right into the thermal. And that was, yes, this is it.
This is it. And I got connected forever. Oh, so you kind of knew it was going to happen from your experience in sailplanes. Okay, I'm going to fly over there and this is going to work. And it did. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty exciting. What's the funniest thing you've seen when flying ever?
Huchen. The funniest thing that
was flying on a sailplane. And, you know, when we began to fly, we were not allowed to leave the airfields for about a radius of 50 kilometers. And, you know, we got bored after a while. There was another young guy flying together with me. So we were chasing, we were chasing hikers.
And in the mountains, we were just flying over the ridges pretty fast.
And I spotted a couple. They were naked and they were having fun. Did
you do some flybys? Do some Tom Cruise flybys? I was young. I was a young man. That's exciting. Yeah, this is back before, you know, the porn is just proliferated all over the internet. It's like having a...
It's like having a
magazine played out in front of you, a little playboy on the ground. Yeah, exactly.
That's great. Last one. If you could only make one more flight, where would you go? Where would it be?
I would just follow my intuition. It could be just here, around the house, next mountain. I think if it's the last flight, for me, it can happen wherever, you know, it's... It doesn't matter. Every flight is a beauty. I love it. Fantastic place to end. Urs, what a pleasure. That was a real joy. Thank you so much for sharing your time and giving us a little window into your remarkable life. Thanks, Kevin. And all the best to you for the X-Alps race this year.
And watch out. Maybe I come and visit you somewhere in Switzerland. Oh, that would be great. I'd love it. I'll lend you one of my power animals. That would be fantastic. I need all the help I can get getting through Kriegel's backyard. Yeah, so it's... Yes. That would be welcomed. Thanks, Urs. Yeah, you're welcome. Bye-bye, Kevin. Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye, Kevin.
Bye-bye. you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out. We put a new show out every two weeks. So for example, if you did a buck a show and every two weeks, it'd be about $25 a year. So way cheaper than a magazine subscription. And it makes all of this possible. I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors. We get asked about that pretty frequently, but for a whole bunch of different reasons, which I've said many times on the show, I don't want to do that. I don't like having that stuff at the front of the show. And I also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people. And these are just our opinions, but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars. I think that's a pretty toxic business model. So I hope you dig that. You can support us.
If you go to cloudbasedmayhem.com, you can find the places to support. You can do it through patreon.com forward slash cloud based mayhem. If you want a recurring subscription, you can also do that directly through the website. We've tried to make it really easy and that will give you access to all the bonus materials. A little video cast that we do and extra little nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show, but we feel like you should hear. We don't put any of that behind a paywall. If you can't afford to support us, then just let me know and I'll set you up with an account. Of course, that'll be lifetime. And hopefully you're being in a position someday to be able to support us. But you'll find all that on the website. All of you who have supported us or even joined our newsletter or bought Cloud Based Mayhem, merchandise, t-shirts or hats or anything, you should be all set up.
You should have an account. You should be able to access all that bonus material now. Thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next show. Thank you.