Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. This is your host, Gavin McClurg. Got a great show today for you with Michael Witschi, who I met walking down off, well, actually I trained with him before the 2015 X-Alps, but he was in the 2015 race, and he and I had a really cool talk on the way down from Asheville, day two, in a rainstorm with Aaron Durogati and a few others. And I've always really appreciated that talk and wanted to reach back out to him because he's been awfully active lately. He's one of the coaches for the Ex-Alps Academy. And he was the brainchild and the event organizer and operates the Iger Tour, which has been a very successful four-day race across the Bernese Oberland in the Interlochen Zone and Iger Zone the last few years.
It's been a really awesome race, which we hope to get over to this year after the X-Alps. And he's a dad. He's one of the most task-winning pilots in the World Cup in history. Might even be, he might have won more than anybody else. I don't have that data to back it up. I did search for it. But fascinating individual, very successful businessman and engineer and incredible pilot. And it was fun to share some time with him in the 2015 race. And it was really fun to reach back out and talk to him about all things flying in this show. I think you're really going to enjoy it. We cover a lot of ground, including the X-Alps and what's going on with the X-Alps Academy and what he's teaching and learning there.
Today's top of the show tip, I'm going to make a shot at answering this one, although I'm certainly no expert in this. But it actually comes from Nik Hawks. He sent me a text a couple of weeks ago that said, when, if ever, would you use a single skin wing? Do you think of them as a viable option for anything beyond getting in a workout and quick flight? So certainly I do use them a lot for workouts and quick flights, but definitely I would use them for alpine stuff as a descent tool. I know, I've heard stories at least, and Fabian Blanco goes into single surface wings a lot more in his show, if you want to hear more about single surface wings. But they have come a long way; they are great little tools.
I have not—I like—I said I've heard of people doing it in the Alps. and flying proper XC, but I can't really imagine doing that on them. I, I don't, I just don't feel very secure. I don't, you know, they don't have a ton of bar performance, they don't have great glides, they are insanely easy to launch, and once you get used to them, land, they don't have the kind of same brake authority, obviously, that a typical wing does, just because they don't have the energy. But once you kind of get that smooth, then they work great for that. But I, they're just so light and so fun, but I never feel that secure on them when it's really thermic and a little bit wild; that always makes me really nervous.
So that may just be lack of experience on them, so I'm definitely no expert on this, but Personally, I don't like using them for any kind of real flying. I like to use them as a descent tool and as a fun play thing. You know, they're great to use ground handling because they're just there; there's nothing to them, so you can really use them in a ton of wind. So that's how I approach it. One thing I think that maybe a lot of people are doing that they should change is make sure you fly them with a reserve. You know, typically we're flying these things with bikini harnesses and we don't have any real padding and safety, so you certainly don't want to crash them. That's why I don't really like using them in any kind of real conditions because I just feel pretty naked up there.
But definitely, you know, they're wing, definitely don't treat them so much like a speed wing when you're, you're right on the certain wire on the ground, you need to have a reserve. So, I, I fly with my Niviac Roamer 2 harness, which is a nice airbag, so it's got some really nice passive safety and then, uh, a reserve, and I think that's probably a good idea. It adds very little weight, that's another kilo. So that's my, my thoughts on the single surface. Enjoy the show with Michael, Michael.
It's, uh, man, it's good to see your face, bud. You have an age today. The last time I saw you, we were hiking down off... it was day two of the, uh, 2015 X-Alps, and we were hiking down off the camp and bond in a horrible storm and, uh, and I never saw you again, so it's good to see you, yeah.
Gavin, I'm very happy to see you as well, and I've... Of course, I've followed you all those years on social media, and I'm very proud that I met you there. You're the only American that saw Monaco, right, in this race?
Yeah, yeah. I think so. That day, too, you got out ahead of me, and man, I had a bad day. Nothing lined up for me that day, and it took me quite a few days to catch up with you. I think I finally caught you on day eight, uh, going into the Matterhorn and, and then, you know, we got down to Monaco and Bruce didn't like Monaco so much that we had to leave immediately. So I didn't go to the party. Oh man, he hated it. And, and my, my feet were just, oh man, I was destroyed. It was a combo of Bruce really wanting to get out of Monaco, and then the van rental we had—I had screwed up—and we had to get it back to, uh, we had to get it back to Germany, back to Munich, like the day of the party. I mean, literally. So we had that night in Monaco when I got in, whenever that was, day 10, and the next morning drove all day and all night to get the van back to Munich and crashed it on the way back.
So yeah, it kept being eventual after the race. so
you missed, you missed the drunk people sneaking into my van and sleeping next to me that night. I had to kick out, I think there were some Czech pilots I was in
So much pain that first night, I mean, literally I couldn't walk. The next morning, Bruce had to carry me to the bathroom, and it looked like somebody had beaten on my feet with hammers. And, uh, so that, that first night that we were sitting around, I think Paul was there and Aaron and a few others. I think Chrigel had like gone home and then was going to come back to the party, or so he wasn't around. But yeah, he had finished a couple days before. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, so we started drinking and my feet hurt so much, and Bruce, you know, was an anesthesiologist, so he had a bunch of oxycodone on him, so I took like three oxycodone and had about six beverages. And whoa, I was a happy man that night. I was just bouncing off the, bouncing off the proverbial walls. But hey, you know, where I thought would be really fun to start is, you know, because otherwise we're going to be talking about the X-Ops and nobody listening is going to know what we're talking about.
But you threw your reserve, uh, I don't, I can't remember, it was like day five or day six in the race, uh, coming into Switzerland, right? And yeah, that was, I think, the same day that they kind of covered this up. And I don't know if they covered it up, but Toma, I didn't realize that that Toma crashed so badly. I mean, it sounded like he really should have died. Um, he kind of had his face torn off and, you know, we were, we were battling a lot of wind in that pretty much the entire race, except day one, we were, we were just battling the winds. Um, tell me about your reserve. I, I thought it was just, you just landed in a Lake was no big deal, but we, just before we started there, you said it was actually pretty, pretty dramatic. You're, you had a, a wife at at home who was pregnant and and uh yeah it sounded scary yeah
So, um, it was a bit scary, you know? I've one of my problems during the race with was that I couldn't really sleep because I hate sleeping with, uh, high temperatures, and normally I went to hotels. I was one of the few pilots who went to hotels; I didn't sleep in my van if ever possible, and even those hotels in, in Italy and in Germany, they wouldn't have air con, you know, I was, so I was actually very tired, but with open eyes all night. So I think that accumulated. And that last day I told my guys this night, I want to pay in Swiss francs again. I don't like euros. I want to be back in Switzerland. So we started the last flight. It was Stefan Gruber and me, And we flew into Switzerland, and at some point we noticed we, we were very high, three thousand something meters, and some point we started to feel the fern.
You know that's that, um, effect. I don't know if you have this in the states; we have it from north to south, you have it west, east, I don't know we
We do, in a sense, but we don't. We don't. No one ever talks about it. I think we get it more than we, and we don't even really know, know what it is. But, you know, it's not dramatic. You don't get the real ferny dumping effect like you do in Europe, you know, where you have these massive pressure gradients. We just deal with a lot of wind, so
Yeah, this is maybe it's one of the dangerous things that I that can happen, but in the X-Alps, it's clear that you will fly, you know, it's clear. And it's it's also the fern has this property that it the lower the stronger, so if you're high, you start to feel a little bit, you know, phase wind, and then we start to accelerate. And suddenly, we were standing in in this um Poschiavo, it's called this village, and we were, you know, full accelerated and not advancing anymore. And then I I got this collapse, and which normally I think I would have opened, this was an easy glider actually, GTO2 the one that I had, but I was just too tired, and I waited maybe maybe three seconds to look up, and then I was already big cravat going down, and I thought, now it's time to throw the reserve.
You know, I was tired, I was not so high, so I threw it, and then of course, with this wind, 40 to 50 kilometers an hour, it blew me, and I was first I was scared to, you know, to face a building, yeah.
now hit
the building, but then I, I realized I was going to land in the water. You know how high are chances to land in a on a rescue in a in a cold mountain lake? And and very, very fortunately, I had trained this before. I don't know why I trained it, you know? I threw, I went over Lake Brienz. I threw my reserve, I came down. I, I, you know, I started to to avoid that pendulum situation where you have the parachute on one side and the glider on the other side. So I knew exactly how to deal it, you know, to bring in the normal glider. And then I also, since my harness had no buckles, you know, I knew how to get out.
So five meters above the water, I get out of my shoulder straps and stuff. And then I dive in and I get out immediately. I'm out of my harness. So because I had it trained, luckily I was smart, so I didn't tangle up with the lines, which is normally the most dangerous thing in those lakes when you land there. But also, then I don't know, my brain was maybe malfunctioning. I start to, first I try to save my stuff, you know, my cell phone in the air, and and suddenly I realized, this is, you know, now, now these things are lost. I have to look after my life, so I let go everything and start to swim with all my clothes on, which now I discussed a lot, you know, if you land in cold water, should you be naked or not?
I mean, naked, in underwear, however, um, and I think it's, I don't know, I think it's worth to keep the clothes on. But you know, we had a, we had a Swiss pilot dying in the, in the Atlantic Ocean in Spain last year because it was too cold, and the guy who was with him until the very last moment, he told me that he, he, he was not sure if it was a good idea. But anyway, so I was swimming with full everything on and against the wind. I don't know why, because I was in the middle of this lake and I measured it, it's, it's maybe it's half a kilometer, it's not that far, and I swam and and suddenly, you know, I start to feel my energy going down.
And then that's where my daughter comes into the story because my wife was six months pregnant. And I thought, no, you have to swim. It can't be that your daughter doesn't get to know you. And this gave me, like, the energy to swim to the shore. And once I arrived there, there was an ambulance. There was the police. They gave me some wool blankets, and I was shaking for an hour from the cold, and then shortly after there was Tarkin Cooper calling me. That's the only moment that I was interesting to to the exiles, yeah, those
of us who aren't Chrigel don't get a whole lot of attention
Normally, you have to be in the front or in the very back, you know? That's right. If you're in the middle, and if you're like the second swiss or the third swiss, then, uh, you're not of a big, yeah.
You're an after ran man, you're an afterthought, but
Anyway, so the one thing that just, you know, pops out of my mouth is, uh, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Nice, easy, said. But then I tell you, the next from the next until that day I was always amongst the five first pilots, I think. And from the very next day on, I started to do one mistake after the other. And some were also because of fear, you know, like flying over this Bernina Glacier. And I already saw myself, you know, hanging in one of those crevasses with my parachute and I flew shit from that moment on. So suddenly, my strength would have been flying because I was not a, you know, a physical athlete.
I've been always a, uh, how you say, this world cup, world cup pilot. Yeah, suddenly my, my strength was gone and, and walking became my new strength and, you know, I, I think I walked like 150 kilometers. I'm just more than clear to get to Monaco that year. But it was really because I did many mistakes after that.
But man, you did it. I mean, I think that, you know, I've thought about this a lot since that race. And when you went in, you know, Toma had to retire, obviously, because he was so mangled. And, you know, Tom Dorledo had to get helicoptered out. Michael Gebhardt that same day, I think that you threw your reserve, just said, enough's enough. You know, I mean, we were dealing with a lot of wind, which I think, you know, we haven't really experienced in the last couple. And, you know, I just wonder if I could even do that now, you know, and I've thought about you a lot because you get in this headspace. People are always asking, you know, how do you deal with the intensity of the conditions? Because they can often be pretty rotten. And wouldn't you say, I mean, everybody I've talked to that competes in the race, we get in this headspace almost like day one that you've just got it.
You're confident. It doesn't matter what the weather throws at you. You can deal with it. You're optimistic and confident. It's that combination. Maybe you're in flow and that, you know, that Thomas Theroux talks about a lot. But when you have something like what you have through, you're obviously thrown way out of that. Your gear's torched, all your instruments are shot, you've had this kind of near-death experience.
Man, it must have been hard to have kept going.
Actually, for me, it was very clear that I would go on.
Even though my family, they said, are you sure you want to go on? Maybe this is a sign. And and I'm very stubborn, I said, "No, this is not a sign. I'm going on, and I don't regret it, and it was never in question." But yes, as I told you before, um, from that moment on I was a little bit scared in the air did
That, how long did that take to resolve? Was it, was it done by not too long? I think in half
A year, I was back back in the game, okay? You know, I also, I was very conscious, conscious that it was very, it was the mixture between my being, being very tired. In a normal, a normal day, I would not, not have thrown the reserve; I would just have kept my glider open. So I knew it was a very special situation, and it was the only reserve in 22 years until now that I had to throw, and I hope it will stay the only one. So I knew this in my head, this was clear, you know? It was not a normal situation. That's why afterwards, when flying, I was not really scared that much. Was
the Xops, your first hike and fly comp
No, no, no. I did, I did two, uh, comps before, because I, before that, I had no idea. I just, you know, Chrigel and me, we were at the Swiss championships from normal competition, and I, I just had lost like 16 kilos because I was, I was a heavy guy, and even Chrigel was a heavy guy before because we wanted to have the big gliders. You know, I was 97 kilos and he was 92 one day. So then I, I lost the weight, and he had already lost it way before because he was doing his exams, and I said, "Chrigel, what do you think?" I would like the, the idea of this race going always forward, you know, not triangles and forth and back, we call that the mickey mouse, no mickey mouse game, just go.
And then he said, "Yeah, if you really want it, you can do that." And then I started to train, and then he told me to do some, some, uh, preliminary Uh, competitions, and it was very useful to me because, you know, I was always taking off on very nice green grassy hills and everything was nice, and suddenly I had to take off in rocky fields on snow. So, um, I have those two years to get a little bit prepared with with hike and fly, yeah.
You and I had, we spent a little bit of time in Zermatt before the race. That's where we met, and we a little bit of training together. I mean, you're being a little humble; you're saying, you know, you that your strength really wasn't on the ground, but you were fit. I mean, you, you, you looked fit bit certainly, and you certainly could move on the ground. Did you, what did your compare, compare your training to the 2015 race to what you're teaching now in the X-Alps academy academy? How does it, how does it look different, if at all?
Um, so what, what, what we teach is basically, especially if we think about X-Alps, because we have a lot of also very fast races in Switzerland, but let's stick to the X-Alps, which is a long race. So we say, you don't have to be fit, you have to be, um, solid.
solid, which means you know it doesn't matter if you, if you get 10 minutes later on the takeoff, but you have to resist 10 days of walking and of hiking up, and you know it'd be durable and, yeah, durable, that's the right word. So that's what we teach our guys. And, of course, then we train also them to be very fit. So we do interval trainings. I always train my muscles, you know, like gym. But a lot of outdoor people, they would say gym is stupid and I don't go to the gym. And I think that conscience has grown.
And also the outdoor people know that if they want to get better, they have to go twice or once a week at least to train their muscles to strength and not only to endurance, just to be solid. But I always had done this. So that was one thing that maybe others didn't do at the time. And I'm, I'm pretty heavy, so I was not the guy to do a hundred meter record, but on the other hand, I trained walking 12 hours without really stopping, and that helped me. The very last night that I knew that I, I had to walk 85 kilometers in a row without, you know, without stopping, so that was. And then, as an entrepreneur, I had little time to actually train, you know, much less than other, other people, so I had, um, one day per week and I had the weekend and
then the evenings I was running, but that... that was about it. What
Was your confidence level going into it because I, you know, we were both rookies in 2015 and I, I literally just had no idea if I could, if I even belonged there. I, I felt, you know, when I saw everybody in, in the infusional that first week, I thought, okay, well, at least physically I've prepared. It just seemed like, okay, well, I think physically I'm going to be okay, but I just, I, I don't know. I was, I had a lot of anxiety going into the, the race. The prologue really helped, you know, even though I don't think anybody took that very seriously. You know, doing well in the prologue kind of was like, oh, maybe I can do this, but man, I just didn't know. Did you, were you confident going in because of their time with Chrigel, or your comp background, or what? What, what was that like for you?
Yeah, maybe flying-wise, I was confident. I knew that I could keep up. I mean, I saw Chrigel. We fly a lot together, so I know he's better and how much he's better. So I knew exactly where I was flying-wise. But, of course, the physical thing was completely new. And then the long sleeping in hotels and in the van and all that stuff, That was completely new, so I had no idea how I would perform in that way. And there was one thing also that I was confident is that I can let go the others, you know, if they, you know, some people they're pretty trained and fit, but then they go too fast and then the third day they're, they're dead.
ah yeah exactly
So if they're, if they were mentally stronger, they could have beaten beaten me twice, you know? But, but since they, you know, they pulled the night pass, they did this and that, and they got so stressed that one day they were not amongst the first 10, or I don't know, but the race was so long, you know? And that's something that I've learned, you know, take it easy, resist 10 days. Everything that I did had to be able to be doing during 10 days, and that was a certain confidence, I think, you know? Yeah.
and in the sleep thing, I, I, I sympathize with you with that one in this, in this last race in 2019, it was really, you know, 2018 went well because we had the one really good day and that, you know, that kind of pole vaulted me into a position that I could get to Monaco because it was certainly not looking like it was going to happen before that day, but But 2019 was really, I felt like when our team really hit its stride and things were going well and I was flying better than I ever had. And then I had one night getting to Titlis, actually the night to Titlis. So it was a huge vertical day the day before and then a monster day on Titlis like everybody had other than Chrigel who top landed up there. But I, you know, physically I still felt pretty good.
I mean, I was pretty wiped out, but I still felt pretty good. But that night I couldn't sleep, just laid there all night. And, and then the next day I, I, again, I, I felt physically pretty well, but I couldn't put a sentence together. You know, my team could tell like, geez, he's not really there. And I just fell apart, just totally fell apart. I couldn't, I couldn't fly and nothing made sense. And I was forgetful and boy, it just really takes. So, like you said, you've got to be able to keep that going for 12 days.
Yeah. I think that the lack of sleep is, for me, was like the worst thing. You know, there were three reasons that I wanted to go again to the Ex-Alps. And one was I have to learn how to sleep well. The second one was our communication. communication, I wanted to. If I went the second time, I wanted to bring a radio because the cell phones, they don't work sometimes. And the third one was, you know, having a better glider one that I can really, because my one was all good and unless I really accelerated and then, you know, instable. So I wanted to have a glider where I can blindly trust even full speed, I'm
surprised Surprised. That was actually my next question. Why haven't you done it again? Because, I mean, I'm older than you, but I love it. Yeah,
it's not the age. I think at that time, you know, when I survived, I had three clothes shapes in my XLs. The one was in Lermos. There was already suit fern, the fern coming from the south. And I nearly hit the roof. But then it went all well. I had nothing, but it was close in a big collapse. that was just coming
That was just coming into the LZ, yeah.
Exactly, yeah, to sign the board, yeah. And, uh, then after when we crossed to the... to this, holy shit, that was so strong conditions, you know? I thought my glider was torn apart. And then there was the lake, and then the third one. I remember your video was in southern France and you flew through it. I, I saw you, uh, on the video with tears, uh, below your, your glasses, and in the exact place, the same place, I thought, "It's over, you know? It's over." I was pulled to all the directions with, I don't know, which speed down and up, and said, "Holy shit, now this, this is it." Yeah, and
Then I, I really, really thought I was dead there. I, I just, I, I, I hadn't given up, but I was like, "There's no fucking way I'm gonna get out of this. I'm dead. I'm just dead." That was, that was really, uh, so I felt kind of the time of the race where I thought, "This is too much. What am I doing?" Yeah,
So you know, these three clothes shapes, then I said, "And now you have two kids and, uh, it's, it's not, it's not good to go again." So this was one one reason, and the second, of course, was my company, because, you know, I knew if I was going again, I would have to train more. But I don't want to sell my company just to go to an X-Helps. So that's why probably I haven't done it. You know, I feel sometimes I feel, why not? But yeah, I would have to give away the company probably to be really prepared.
But you're supporting Yale in this one, correct?
Yes. I've never seen her name right.
Is that Yael? Yael, yeah. So, I mean, that's kind of the same thing, Mian. I mean, that's a big commitment.
Yeah, but it's not the same, you know. I mean, first of all, you know, I cannot fly. If I feel it's too dangerous, I can go and land. And she can, but she shouldn't probably. Or sometimes she should, but normally she should fly. through, so that's already big difference. Um, it's not the same, you know? And then we're—we're—we should be able to sleep better. We will see if that works. Now we have a camping car with a big AC, so that's my condition to to come with you—camping car with AC—and, uh, and then it's a promise I gave gave her, you know?
And that was in 2013 when we first—14—when we first started to think about this idea. And then she's—I told her, "If you help me, I will help you one day." So now she—the last two times she wanted to go, but she had some physical problems. And now she's ready, and I said, "You know, I keep my word." Yeah.
She, I had her on the podcast a while back. That, uh, landing on a moving car sounded pretty adventurous, you know? She was doing some acro, and I think, and yeah, so well, I'm glad she's healthy. And wow, you know, this is exciting. I think Lori and Yael, and they're going to put up a good fight, you know? I think they're, they're both really strong pilots and clearly training hard, and it's going to be awesome to watch, you know? That was, that could be one. I, I mean, you know this obviously, but the, the big thing that has changed since, since our time in, in 2015, I remember at one point in the race, uh, Hansa and I launched together and that was Hansa's fifth and his last. So he had done it since 2007.
And he made a comment. He said, Gavin, I'm going, everything's going right in this race. I'm going as fast as I've ever gone. And I'm in whatever we were in at the point 16th or 15th or something. He said, I just can't believe how fast this race is getting. And since 2015, it's almost like it's another 20 % or something. It's crazy how fast it's going. It's just, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it is really remarkable. I mean, I felt like in 2015, you could make big mistakes and, and still be in it. And I mean, I certainly made a ton in that race and you could kind of, you could, you could crawl back and I I feel like now it's, man, you know, in 2017, I made a mistake early, and that was kind of it. I just, it just, it's just everybody's moving so much faster.
Yeah, that's also what my friends tell me, you know, the level is constantly rising.
Yeah. And
I think that that could be a problem for some countries, because I know that Red Bull, they want, of course, as many countries as possible. But yeah, it will be more and more difficult. You know, those—let's call them the adventurers—they have no chance. The adventurers have no chance in that race anymore. They had before, you know, and the old guys, they told me that the one that won the first one, and then Alex Hovrad won the second and the third, you know, they had a very huge equipment, 20 kilos, and they improvised. There were different times, yeah.
very different times, and they—the course itself has really changed things as well. You know, that in this last race, with you know, they almost doubled the amount of turn points, and that I think for the athletes really removes a lot of the excitement because you can't make big moves. I mean, when you look at the replays and the track logs, everybody's playing follow the leader, you know? You just... You can't really, you know, back in our day when we had the turn point in Bellinzona and then to the Matterhorn, there's a lot of different ways you can fly that. It's 200K, you know, you could take south, middle, north. And now you can't go that far off course line. You know, the distances between turn points are really short.
Makes it less interesting in a certain way, right?
It certainly does. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so then let's switch to the Eiger Tour, because is that something that kind of sounds like almost filled the gap for you? Because that's a massive undertaking as well. I think this will be, will this be the fourth? Yeah, the fourth
edition, yeah.
And such an awesome race. It just looks so cool. So for those who aren't familiar, just explain briefly what it is and what was kind of the catalyst to get that going. win so
Actually, the idea arose that we had a race in Switzerland. It's called VercoFly, and yeah, you know, in Switzerland we have 120 mountain huts that belong to our alpine club. They're up behind the mountains, and they have everything: shelter, food, uh, water, beds, whatever you need. So I was at this race in Switzerland, southern Switzerland. It was very nice, but um, I felt, you know, very, very complicated rules. And then I was at the X-Alps, and then I thought, okay, let's synthesize those two races, which is the VircoFly and the X-Alps. And then I kind of created the Eiger Tour. I just thought that would be the race I would like to do. But, of course, I cannot.
As an organizer, I cannot participate. I know it is very demanding, and I don't know if you've heard Chrigel saying saying it's harder than the X-Alps.
Oh, no, I haven't. Really? That's what he
stated in Swiss newspaper.
Wow. Is that because you don't have a supporter and it's just a lot of vertical? Because, I mean, I know you cover some pretty amazing countries. Yeah, some
people have done 5,700 meters a day vertical.
And then you have the top landing, and then we are in the most thermoactive month in the year, you know, and top landing, and it's very demanding, you know. Sometimes that's also why I split, and, you know, for the pros, I give them medium to difficult huts, and for the challenge race, I give them what I think easy huts, but this year I have to take out some more because we always had some accidents while top landing. So, you know, the idea was exactly that you don't need to have this, um, logistics that you need in, in, in the X-Ops, so you can come along alone, right? You take your plane, pack your stuff, you don't need to rent a car and come with two or three guys to Switzerland, so you don't need a big budget, and then you don't need to, to think a lot.
And I also want to make sure that athletes, they eat, eat sufficiently, and they're, let's say, more or less safe, because everywhere where they have to land, there are people, there's a hut. And you know, if, if you're hungry and you're in the middle of the prairie, then you probably go on hungry because you say, I can't make a big detour to the next big McDonald's, but if you land at a hut and you're hungry, you lose three minutes and you buy some stuff and eat and go on, so
That's, yeah, I was gonna say so. You're not, you're not, uh, you don't have, you, you don't have to carry much water and food because you're having breakfast and dinner every day at a hut.
If you want. Of course, the very competitive people, sometimes they don't even want to spend the three minutes to eat the cake at a hut. And then the huts, they're very enthusiastic. They like us to pass by and they bring you food and drinks and they follow online the race. so that was actually my idea to make it simple and um only four days and there's also a creakle he agrees that four days he says it's the perfect length of a race he
thinks four days, three nights. Yeah, and and don't you, don't you and tell me if I've got this wrong, but I've watched all the videos and stuff, but it's the you announced the course the morning of, right? You have, yes, you have a—you have a meeting. Everybody's already got what, what would, what would be the prep? What do people say if you're coming from the States and you want to come do the Eiger and you're real limited on time? What, what do you need to do in advance? Um,
Okay, I have so many huts that I can't tell you to visit all the huts, because it's like 50 huts. If you have time, you can cover five or six in a day, then you can do all the huts, of course, and that. But I mean, could you, could you
Just show up like, could you just show up the day before the race starts and download the maps? And of course, not enough preparation, okay? No.
You can do that; it's not a problem.
okay of
Course, if I mean, it's—it can, it can be an advantage to know it, but last year Chrigel and paddle and set for for knowing it, they—they lost like two hours because they thought like, there's a big mountain ridge that is called, and they thought that the west side never works. Chrigel says it never works, and he lives there, so he made a detour. And then all the guys in the back, the pack, you know, they—they were like three hours behind, and in the evening everybody was to get together again. Whoa, very cool. That was the proof that sometimes knowing it, it's not always an advantage, yeah.
And I mean, we see that World Cups all the time, isn't it? I mean, it's very rarely the local hero that wins the comp, because yeah, you know, you get kind of set in your ways, don't you? Oh, that's great. Cool on
the other hand And what I like, if you know the area, then you can – basically, you could fly without the GPS, you know. And that's also something I – just for me, because I hate instruments, I love free flight. Free flight is going where I want. And I thought, okay, if somebody really hates instruments and he knows the huts, he can do it without. He just needs a cell phone.
So you have the two categories. categories, the the the lower category. What would you, what would you recommend? How many? Who does that suit, you know? And how much experience does it suit somebody who's never done a hike and fly race, or is that a little too aggressive? So
Now, I, you know, I've learned with the with the three editions now. In in 2021, I will have four categories—four, which of them I have two that are actually a race wizard, which is for the professionals, but you have to have done the ex alps, you have to be mountain guide or paragliding teacher. That's for the pros, and then I have the challenge, which also requires a lot of experience. I can fly race experience, and this year I will ask the guys to show me a video of a very difficult landing, you know, and I also also some people I don't accept, so you have to be selected by me.
So that's still very high caliber. The challenge race is high, yeah.
Okay, and then I said, "Okay, I... I felt the interest of people like this. I've never done a race." Then I made the academy. I get to her academy. So last year was the first time we did it. We had 10 participants, and we saw that the field was still too wide, you know, because some they already pushed and some they could hardly take off in a snow field. So now this year, we... we split the category to two different categories still. So we have one for somebody who has no idea, and then I have the one that somebody that wants to be come a challenge pilot, so...
Those two, the two lowest categories, are they're not a race? It's no, they're actually... It's actually a
tourist experience. Yeah, that's great. So you
don't have the pressure of trying to get anywhere. You just go at your own pace, learn. Oh, fantastic. Everybody sleeps
in the same hut. And then you have professional teachers. You have a briefing. You have a debriefing in the evening. So it's really a learning experience.
Ah, fantastic. That sounds so great. So I'm going to ask you to imagine something that's very hard for a Swiss to imagine. but we've been trying to get something like you're doing off the ground here in the States. The problem is, is with the exception of Colorado, we don't have a hut system anywhere that doesn't exist. Colorado a little bit, but then, you know, the Colorado has, there's such high mountains and there's so much wind. It's just, there's no way to pick a time of the year that that would actually go. So we're trying to figure out how to do something kind of similar, but without huts, What would be your suggestion? Could you, could you just have, you know, tents set up at the top of the mountain where you have, you know, some food and stuff, or how would you approach something like that?
I would probably look for, for lower, lower places. I mean, I'm sure you guys have some cabins and some, some lodges and nothing.
Not, I mean, you know, cabins, there's forest service cabins and that kind of thing that are, but they're so far apart. You know, we don't have any kind of like a network that, you know, where you could stay in a little kind of cereal bowl area that, you know, this is kind of protected because the problem we have is, of course, wind. You know, there's just, there's a hard time, you know, like you, you're pretty much, you're always committed to these dates in July and you know, you're going to get a couple of days, you know, you, you've had bad weather as we always do in the X ops, but you're going to get a couple of days. And even in the bad weather, you're going to be able to fly. We get a lot of time. We just can't fly. So we have to make, I mean, at all, it just is not, you know, we days like that. So we have to make it something that you could do on foot and yet hopefully you'll get some flying, but we just, it's hard to figure out how to support because we'd really like to do it unsupported.
You know that it, you could do it with a support team, but then it adds costs and personnel, and it's, it's very hard. It makes access for a lot of people much tougher. The beautiful thing about the, you can just show up with your kit and do it.
yeah you you can just pack your glider and some stuff and fly over and then compete yeah you know that's that's it's like plug and play um yeah how how How could you do that? I mean, yeah, maybe with tents. Yeah, maybe you just have
to set up like almost like an Ironman type of thing. You just set up, you know, refueling zones or something.
And then you could also say everybody sleeps at the certain tent and then you just count the time to get there and then people will stay at the same place. You bring them
there and you bring them back to where they, okay. You
know, like today we're going to have three turn points and the third one will be our sleeping place. And Chrigel arrives at 1 p.m. and some guys arrive at 8 p.m. But everybody's there. The next day you make the next step. Ah, you do a
mass start every day. That'd be kind of neat too because then everybody's together and having fun. Exactly.
We do that. We just created the Swiss Championships of Hike and Fly last year, no, the year before, and we're doing the same type of thing. We do every day one thing. Every night, all the pilots are together, and at the end of the three days, you count the points.
Cool. Okay. Yeah, that just sounds so fun. Let's get back to your own kind of personal journey. and I didn't even know this, but my first World Cup, you were here. You were in Sun Valley back in 2012. I know you used to fly a lot of comps. Are you still doing a lot of competing?
No, I just do Swiss comps because now, of course, I have little time, and then I have so many hike and fly stuff going on. So the last two years, I just did the Swiss championships for normal comps.
So you're doing the Swiss Cup? yeah
The Swiss Cup, I didn't go. Too many, you know? I just, I think I went to two last year, and last year, um, yeah, two comps. One was Swiss Cup, and one was the Swiss Championships, which was a five-day competition. How much time?
does the Eiger Tour take to you to run what what's involved in in that kind of an effort is that like year-round or is it something that It takes up a ton of your time all year. Can you kind of throw it together?
Okay.
Maybe, I don't know. It's all year round because right now I'm programming my new web shop, and then you have this and that. We are actually developing a hike and fly app, so we don't need those Flymasters things anymore. Yeah, right. And you only have one device in the future, which will be your cell phone, which will also make a tracking, And then you just need the cell phone and an external battery. So your question, how much time it takes? It's very... sometimes it takes nights and nights and nights, and sometimes maybe three weeks. I do nothing like in November, you know, can happen and
Is this just a project and you don't—we don't share anything you don't want to—but is this just a project that's really kind of from the heart, or is there a financial side of it too that makes it worthwhile? Or is it just because you like it, or is that a joke? I'm
An entrepreneur, Gavin, so it came from the heart and, uh, it's been three years now and I, I'm still looking how to make it profitable. You know, I don't want to get rich, but at least I want to have, um, my hours paid, sure. And I also want to gather some money because I have some other races in my head that I will do further on, so I have to be able to develop. Ideally, I would have like three races a year and I could have a staff that becomes more and more professional in organizing and also get, probably, stronger, um, sponsors, because I don't have a lot of sponsors. I don't invest a lot of time to look for sponsors, so let's say if I don't count my, my hours.
It's been a zero round so far, but it has not paid my hours. And it should become probably a little bit more better with the future. I just had some students do a bachelor thesis about making Iggy Tour profitable. And they found out some very interesting things. things because, yeah, I think it's—it can't be that I—that I sponsor, you know, I—I sure I want, just, yeah, I want my hours paid, ideally. Yeah, but it's also very nice, you know, as—as an entrepreneur, I shouldn't do it. And you know why? Because of the risk. The risk exists that something bad happens. I know it, people know it, that come, and I hope it will never be the case, but I have to be—be conscious that something bad can happen.
You
Know, yeah, and I mean it's, it's interesting that even you say something about that in Switzerland, you know? That's, that's always the huge fear here is we are, you know, we are a very lawsuit, uh, happy culture here in the states, and you can be sued for anything. And it's just that's always, you know, every year when we go, "Let's do this," or "Let's have a fly-in," or "Let's have a little comp," it's always like, "Yeah, man, you know, we just, you can't open yourself up to that kind of lawsuit," and you're, you're much more protected to switch on than you are from that. But still, I guess it could happen. We
have that, you know, the mountain people have that mentality. They say, "In the mountain, everyone is on his own."
yeah everyone
takes his own decisions. Yeah, of course I checked it with my lawyer and he says, he says worst case scenario for me would be to be judged, but um, how would you say like conditionally? Yeah, so I would still live at home and I would have something around my my leg to control where I am, but you know I said as long as, long as I can see my kids, I can live with that, but I can't go to jail. You know, that would be a no-go. If he, if he told me in the worst case he would be in jail, I say I have to stop it right away, yeah.
Well, I hope you're able to navigate
that yeah
That's, that's always kind of a scary side of what we're doing, for sure. And it's, you know,
It's, it's funny because, yeah, people, they love it. They love the race there, you know? Last year, I had to, I had to cut because there were too many inscriptions, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it, that's also a reason why I do it because I see the happy people, ah.
It looks like so much fun. I mean, the videos for those of you who haven't watch them, you know, get online and just YouTube or go to your go to the website, Niagara Tour Rocks. But the, uh, the videos that they're being put up, and I mean, that was where I first discovered this whole speed bar, uphill, downhill, down landing.
That was invented by Chrigel because he knew that to win that race, it was his key to be even faster. I mean,
That's next level. I had never, I had never never even thought about that. You know, that just, that's not what you do. You land in the wind and, and I mean, it's, it's an advanced move. It's, it's tough. I've been working on it a lot this year. It's very inspiring watching him, you know, land on waterfalls and stuff, but it's a, yeah, it's well, hats off to you for making that work. It's been fantastic. And I want to, I want to also ask you about, you know, I follow you on Instagram and the X-Alps Academy and stuff. And it sounds like, you know, you've taken a real position there. You obviously do a lot of ski touring and spend a lot of time outdoors, but I've always been so jealous of this, you know, that you can go to get prepared for, for a race. I mean, I wish I had something like that here where I could go and learn.
You talked a little bit at the top of the show about what that looks like from the physical standpoint, you're trying to make these, these athletes durable and resilient and, you know, get them into weight training and that kind of thing. But what else are you learning? Is it, Is it a lot of process stuff? You know, are you teaching people how to pack their wing? If I just showed up tomorrow at the X-Alps Academy, what am I going to learn?
So first I have to clarify that, you know, I had the coach position with Chrigel at the beginning and I did the beginning. But last year I handed over to a guy, Ben Hussen. But I'm still there. I'm still there, you know, but I haven't this position right now. What would you learn? You would learn, for example, how to be faster in a in a ski mountaineering paragliding race. Have you ever done that? No. So you have the the racing skimo skis; you run up, you leave them open, you don't even take off. The first, you fly with them like this down, you land, pack your wing, you probably don't even take off your harness, you run up the next hill, you take off again, and you do it this this three times like this.
Would be something that you could learn that you've probably never done. i
always rip my skins when I do that, but I, I love it. That'll be my next training. That sounds, yeah.
And um, then of course, sometimes we do, you know, we just go together and on a hike and fly with no specific task, or or we go and we make a a little task with four turn points. And then we have, you know, we have, how do you call this, impulse training, you know, running up the Harder Mountain, which is just next to Interlaken.
And then, but there's also the mental part. We have the, you know, this psychologist that Thomas Theurillat, you know him, he was a supporter of Chrigel, he is again. So he helps us as well, you know, to work on the mental part. And then I think a lot is also just the spirit of all those people around, you know? And you hike up and you talk and you talk about best practice about this and that. Okay, let's try it. I can show you this and that, you know, a lot of things that are informally also learned if
You, what, what's like one thing that you could pull out of everything that you've seen and at the xops ops academy in the years since your 2015 race, when you look back, what one thing is like, "God, I wish I had known that" or had practiced that? What, what was the—what's one thing that would have really made a difference in your own race to
me actually nothing, because I was like, the that was the prototype of the X Ops Academy, you know? I asked Regal, "Can we train together?" and he said, "Yeah, of of course." So, um, you know, I always say it's like, if you learn to play tennis with Roger Federer, you learn, I'm sure he will learn very quickly. And I got so many hints from him that otherwise I would have learned on my own. So I was actually like the, the first X-Ups baby, you know?
Um, can you share any of the hints? Like, oh, I have an example. Cause I know, I know Yael is because she's in Verbier and she's, you know, it's hard for her to come over and join the Academy. So I asked her this and I know she's working with Thomas, as I am, which has been really great. Yeah. What, how, what are you passing on to her in terms of just being ready? okay
What would I pass on to her is that, um, I tell her that her flying skills are way enough. Yeah, she doesn't have to be the fittest, she has to be, yeah, she has to be durable. That's the only thing, and for that she needs also to gain some weight. She's trying to, he's really struggling to gain weight because I, I'm sure that if you're very, very thin, you know, you need a little, a little, little fats to burn during that long race. Yeah, and, and then I, I think that's about it. And then also she asks me to, to maybe come, you know, the difficult flying decisions to also tell her my opinion. Would I still fly?
Would I not fly? Because she's, she's seen that with me, you know, that it can get very quickly, very dangerous depending on the winds and stuff. So that's what she wants from me, you know, very, very honest opinion when the ones we are in the race.
Yeah.
Um, Michael, we, before, uh, I've got a couple of other questions for you and then I'm going to fire some, some kind of rapid fire questions at you that we, we put up a survey about a month and a half ago. By the time this goes live, it'll be longer than that, but I've got a lot of really cool questions that just came from the audience. So I'll fire some of those at you before we do. I just got to meet your little daughter there while we took a break, and you mentioned your wife was pregnant, like five months pregnant or so, in the 2015 race. How has kids changed your relationship with risk and flying? And, you know, you've been at this game a long time, you know, a lot of years of World Cups and then X-Alps and then now you're, you know, I still, I see you're still getting after doing fun things with a wing.
Is—I've had my own kind of interesting journey with that. You know, my valence, three years old now, she was, Maddie was very pregnant in the 2017 race. I was kept, kept waiting for the call to come in to have to race home, you know, during the race itself. But I'm just wondering how that's it has it, and and if it has, how has it changed your relationship, relationship with flying and risk? I
think with flying, you know what's changed even more? My, my, my, uh, risk behavior was, uh, two years ago when I lost my friend, uh, in front of me in an avalanche. I think that was, you know, I, I couldn't save him and he died, and that was like the moment where, where I thought, oh, man, I could be standing next to this grave. I could be in the grave next to his. And then I thought, you know, my life was actually very good. I have no complaints, but I want to see my kids grow up. That was like the strongest reason to be alive right now.
And so then I said, in the future, I will always, before I do something risky, Ski, I will always think about the worst case, and if I think worst case is death, then I don't do it. If worst case is breaking a leg, I can, I can live with that. And that's been my, you know, my guidelines since then. So my, like, my ski mountaineering is normally under 30 degrees, you know, no avalanche risk. I miss some nice powder, but that's the price I pay. And also flying. But flying, you know, except that X-Arts, I've never really had problems, so I don't feel flying, I mean, a big danger.
It hasn't changed a lot with my flying behavior. I've always been, you know, I know that my level is a little below that some pros we have in Switzerland.
And let's give you an example. During the Swiss Champs, they will go full speed with an N, So three, 20 meters to a rock and I will go half speed or I will fly it further around because I know that my green zone is not as high as theirs. But that's been even before having kids that I think that's always been there.
Okay, that was a good answer. I'll get into these. You can answer long or short, however you want. There's just kind of some fun ones. Okay. What skill or something that you have you learned from life or any other sport has helped you become a better pilot?
That you should never give up. You know, sometimes you think this, I will not find a thermal. It's over. But it's normally not over. You know, I always remember in Brazil, that was the most impressive. I was in Brazil on a comp, and then I was, I don't know, 50, 20 meters above ground, and I got this thermal. It got up again. And once also in Brazil, we were sticking to a rock. It was raining during one hour, and we could just keep the height above the rock, and then it cleared up again, and we made go. That was crazy. you
know yeah but
That's something that I always try to learn in life from paragliding, but also keep it in mind because our mind some sometimes, you know, make makes this black and white decisions. It says, "Oh, it's raining, it's over, you can go in there." But no, it's not, yeah.
I think that's, that's one of the things that keeps drawing me back to the the x-ops, in a sense, is that you're flying, flying, you know, in the last race, we had the day going up the Rhine. There was no sun. It was just, it wasn't windy. It was just, it was kind of a cool day, but it was not, it was never a day you would wake up and go, I'm going to go flying today. You would never go flying because you, you never did anything more than just a sledder. And I don't, I don't know if I've had that much fun paragliding in a long time. It was great. I mean, those were the coolest sledders ever. You're sledding over, you know, morning glory clouds in the morning and fog and in and out of, you know, in and out of little wispies and, you know, and it was mellow and there was no wind and there was no thermals and it was just, you're just having a day in the mountains.
But, you know, usually you'd go do something else on those kind of days, you know. that's
Why? That's why I like competitions. I still like to do them, you know? It's not that much for winning, but for being, or for pushing myself into those exactly conditions as you mentioned them. You know, you do things that you would never do, and you will experience amazing things during competitions. And also, sometimes you will lack a little bit the time to really enjoy it because you have to always go forward. You know, that's, let's say, the negative side, but the positive is definitely that you go into conditions that you would never if it wasn't for a comp, sure, okay.
If you get back to a time before you started flying, would you make a different decision? Yeah,
Probably, yes. I think there, there's not, there's no other sport that I know that is that, that much teaching about life than paragliding, even for economy. Also, you know, for my, for my company, I learned a lot of things. Yeah, one thing is also the focus. That's what I learned from our league boss. He said, "If you're high, you can think about strategy; if you're low, don't look at the, the others, just think, where can I get up?" And then again, you can think about strategy. You know, and that's what he calls the focus. You know, if you're low, thermal; if you're high, where to go, where are the others, what, what can I do?
And in business, it's exactly the same.
That's great, I like that. What was the best tip you've gotten in all these years that influenced your flying the most? Something Chrigel taught you, or a mentor, or somebody, or even just something you saw in a comp? I
mean, probably at the beginning, it was probably the the theory of the the fastest flight, you know? You know, I'm an engineer, so I even programmed, you know, I had my my, what you call, the polar of my my wing. And then I programmed a headwind, tailwind, expected lift and expected sink. So that's the McCready theory. And then I had a table on my cockpit that I could read how fast I would fly. And it's amazing that normally you have to fly a lot faster than you would think to use the McCready theory.
You and I had this conversation that I've brought up over and over again. I don't know if you listen to this show, but I've brought you up a lot. We had this great conversation coming off the camp and bond about your business, and you're an engineer, and I don't remember this, but we were—I was commenting on, "God, there's so many engineers in this sport," and you—you gave me a great answer that I—I'm fuzzy on now. What? Why is it that engineers are so attracted to flying?
Maybe I'm an engineer because I'm attracted to flying, you know.
ah i
think it's the way
around yeah
It's, it's really true that I think at that moment in the, I told you that like probably 30 or 40 percent of all the, the guys in the top 10 in Switzerland have always been mechanical engineers. But okay, let's, let's call it this way, you know, aerodynamics is a field of mechanical engineering. Method, you know, the weather, it's also fluid dynamics. So I think we have already this kind of basis to understand better what's going on.
Let's say the non-engineered pilot, he can make it up with experience,
but we already have like a little package that we can just unpack to understand things. You know, like the McCready theory, to understand that, what's, you know, the fastest way of flying. If you ask an average pilot, probably you will not really get what does it mean. I think that's, and especially because I like flying, I specialized in fluid dynamics, you know, so it was all about fluid and flows and stuff. And I think that helped, that really helps. Is
that super translatable though? I mean, understanding fluid dynamics from a theoretical standpoint and from algorithms and math, does it just cross over into understanding flow in the invisible?
Yeah, I think it does. It really does. To understand what's a Reynolds number, and to know that on your wingtip, you have a different one than in the middle of your wing, and to know what is the induced drag, and why the birds are flying in the V shape. I mean, okay, normal people probably know that. When birds travel, they use the V shape. Or they fly very low, like the albatross you've seen them on the sea with your boat, I'm sure. So that's all when you see them. Then, if you're a mechanical engineer, you know exactly why they're flying so low, because they use the, you know, the floor effect, and you know exactly why the
why the the birds they use this v-shape flying one behind the other because they they They annihilate one of their rollers, and they have less drag. And that's all the things that certainly help.
What should beginners avoid?
Paragliding beginners?
Yeah. People just
getting into the sport. What should they be most aware of? I always tell people paragliding is not a dangerous sport if you practice it only in a good weather. So, if you want to push into demanding weather, you need a lot more experience. And something that I also think that the beginners don't do enough is ground handling. It's not that sexy to stand there for hours and control the wind. But I tell people when it's really windy, go out in the field. And then, after a moment, go go behind the tree to feel the lee side and try to keep your wing up.
And if you do this for hours and hours, you will be a much better pilot than if you do 20 more flights in a in a nice weather. That's that's my tip for probably for beginners. That's
Great, okay. Last one, uh, what was, or still is, the hardest or most demanding thing that you needed to, or still need to learn, yeah?
Let's say in paragliding, um, I would like to, um, to control my wing better in, in very extreme situations. So, but I would, I would be very scared to be a test pilot, you know, just, just go full gas and collapse, you know, but that would be good for me, I'm sure. You know, you can see those, those pilots, you will see them again in summer that are test pilots. It's, you know, there's their green flying zone is so much higher than, than mine because they do this every day. Yeah,
Yeah, I saw, I saw Aaron Durogati when I was training with him. I think that was the 2015 race and take off on a day where it was very much an ex-alps day, but it was not a recreational day, and we were just out training, and I just thought, "Man, there's no, there's no plus side to this. What, why, why, why even try?" I mean, it was nasty, really strong burn and awful, and uh, but I think it's because he has that test pilot mentality and just, you know, I was more than happy walking down and he was like, "Yeah, you"
know, just go full gas and then make make it collapse. That's against my intuition because I always want to keep it open. Sure, and uh, yeah, I think they have test pilots. They have a very, very good, uh, experience. Yeah, they certainly do.
Michael, what a pleasure! I really, really enjoyed that. Thank you for your time. It's good to see you. Thank you, Gavin. Yeah, it was very nice. Yeah, that was... I see you're, uh...
You're in good shape and happy that that's... that's nice. Yeah,
You know, I, I, I hope we get to have the race, but I, I kind of figure our approach, uh, since September has been, you know, worst-case scenario is I'd spend the winter getting fit, so that there's worse things in life. So I hope we get to come over and have this race, but we'll see. But now it's, I, I'm very thankful to be able to spend so much time on, on just on training. It's, yeah, keeping me sane right now.
Yeah, that's cool. I mean, for also for me, it's been not such a bad year, you know? I've always been outside, and yeah, it's been—it's been great. Will you come to the Iggy tour if you
After exams, we are coming for sure. Whether I race or not is, uh, you know, it's so tight because we won't get done until the first, and it kicks off with the seventh. Is it the seventh or even of
june no
no you're right
yeah yeah
And so Ben and Revis, uh, my two of my supporters, are both planning on doing it. And you know, if you've got the space to throw me in, and my feet are okay—usually my, my feet are pretty hammered, man, after the end of this race. So if my feet are okay, because I really wanted to do the last one, and uh, but I just, I, I couldn't walk well enough, you know? So I watched from afar. But uh, I think the timing is going to be a little too tight for me. I'm an old guy, buddy, I take some time to recover. But, but uh, I will for sure be sitting in interlocking and watch it go on and have some beers with you. And maybe I can help logistics or something else if I can't actually. We can do on some
flights still yeah
That'd be great. That'd be great. I just don't know if I'm going to be capable of running up mountains that fast, but we'll see. Then you would
take the cable car maybe?
It'll be like 2013, where where we just fly the whole damn course and it'll be nice weather, but I haven't had that experience yet, but
You maybe, otherwise you can be, uh, you know, the special guest for our academy, and you go with them. Great, love to
Yeah, that sounds fun. That'd be—that'd be be fantastic. I will be involved in some way. We, we have the van rented for the whole time and, and like I said, Ben and Revis are doing it, so, uh, we'll be there. And I can't wait to see you in person, but thanks, bud. That was—that was a blast, and, uh, it's so good to see you, and congrats on the little ones, and, uh, congrats. That's
easy to make, but hard to educate, you know.
We will see you, okay?
Again, it was a big pleasure to see you, and yeah, hope to see you in some month in Switzerland, if
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