135. Tim Pentreath and Vol Biv - Tim Pentreath

Your construction smells of corruption. I'll manipulate. Happy holidays, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloud Base Mayhem. I hope you are enjoying these final days of 2020. And I hope like you, it'd be fun to look at this year in the rearview mirror. What a crazy year it has been. My guest today is Tim Pentreith. I met Tim up in the lakes a couple years ago. I was on tour with Ed Ewing with North and Known, and they scheduled a couple classes for me to teach. We're calling it master classes. They're really based on hike and fly and bivvy. And Tim was one of my students. Well, that's kind of funny, though. He knows a lot more than I do. But he's been flying 30 years and regularly chases it on X-Contest and very well-known British pilot.

And right after those classes, he took that class because he really wanted to get into bivvy. And after that, he certainly did. He's been doing some really cool lines with some other friends in the Alps with kind of no objective, just, you know, having fun in the sky and doing it safely and covering ground. So this conversation is all about bivvy and gear and how to get into it and where are good places to go to practice and what are the kind of minimum skills you need. So. We put out this survey quite a few weeks back on how we can improve the podcast and many people asked for more shows on hike and fly and bivvy. So here you go. Enjoy this great talk. Super fun talk with a good friend of mine, Tim Pantry, and invite you all to go look at the show notes in for this episode to see some of Tim's great videos.

He's been documenting these these bivvy trips he's been taking in there. They're a lot of fun. So enjoy.

Tim, so awesome to have you on the show. We met a few years back now. It's crazy how fast time flies, but we met up at the lakes doing a little hike and fly gig with with Jockey and Ed Ewing at XC Mag. That was super fun. I can't wait to get back there. I've been watching all your videos and pictures of the amazing flying you guys do in the UK. And since that talk, and I don't know if maybe it's before that, but you've done some awesome bivvy. And the in the Alps, and I know people have been following following along those as I have. And so I can't wait to talk to you about that. But maybe a good place to start is just a brief, you know, one page on your history of flying. How'd you get into this absurdity?

Hey, Gavin. Well, it's it's fantastic to talk to you. Thanks very much for inviting me on the show. Oh, gosh, how did I get into it? Well, if you go through it all, it's probably more than the page because I've been flying for. 30 years this year. I started in 1990. Wow. And yeah, I know back in the in the dim and distant past.

What the hell was I doing teaching that course? We should have turned we should have had you do it.

I don't know. Yeah, not quite as full on as you I don't think. But yeah, I got into it. I used to do a lot of windsurfing. And back in those days, there was a windsurfing mag that I subscribed to. And it had an article about paragliding, how it was the ideal sort of light wind alternative to windsurfing.

And I'd also seen it on telly. There's a French pilot and I've forgotten his name. And it won't come back to me. I know. But he climbed three of the highest peaks in the Alps or the famous three famous peaks in the Alps and paraglided off all of them. And I think that was in the late 80s. And I must have seen that on. You know, terrestrial telly. That was all there was at that time. And, you know, that piqued my interest. And then when I saw this article in Borg's magazine, that was it. Signed up there and then with a couple of mates and the rest is history, I suppose.

I find it really interesting, this flow sport to flow sport thing. You know, Will Gadd talks about that. In fact, I was just reading his chapter in the book. You know, we're kind of editing that all up for release here shortly. And he was talking about, you know, when people come from other flow sports to flying, it's often a pretty good transition. And, you know, when you're not so say like climbing or triathlon or something, it can often be a really tough jump because the people that are into flow sports are attracted to flow sports. And I did the same thing. I was a kite surfer before a pilot. And I think it's you also have that advantage of understanding the invisible quite a bit better. You understand how it works and how water works. If you're a kayaker, I'm amazed by how fast kayakers get really good at flying.

Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with with the as you're saying the flow sports and you mentioned that on just one of your recent podcasts. And I've since become a kite surfer myself and sold all my old windsurfing kit for virtually nothing, sadly. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, kayakers. Yeah. You've got the whole sort of water flow around. You know, rocks, which is synonymous with the air. And, you know, I've been sailing and windsurfing and for years, really, and just teaches you about the air and you can react to those little shifts, you know, especially when you're kite surfing, you're constantly on the bar in and out, just adjusting to minute. You're active flying, I suppose, really.

You know, that's exactly what you're doing.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, you're just the pendulum's maybe a little bit different, but it is active flying. Yeah. And when did you so I can't even remember when when we did the the master's class was 20. It was after Alaska came out because that's what it was really. I was kind of touring with the film. So that must have been 2017. Oh,

that's what I was going to say. 2017. And

were you already well into Bivy at that point or was that kind of the launching ramp?

That was the launching ramp, really. I would, you know, it'd been on my radar. It was one of those things that I thought about doing for quite a while, but I'd never really sort of plucked up courage to take that first step. And it was that later that summer that I did actually my first just that was an overnight Vol Biv, but still Vol Biv down in south of France.

What was the catalyst, really? I mean, was it just OK? You know, you'd done the comp scene. Was it just something you were looking for something different with flying?

Yeah, I've done. I've done quite a few British open. I've done quite a few British open comps over the years. Never taken it too seriously. I've always for most of the time was just on serial class gliders, you know, sports class. And then I think it was probably 2017. I got my moved on to. No, I had a three liner before, but moved moved up a level to the class glider.

Actually, having said that, I flew back in a day. I had a Nova Sphinx, which was that was my second ever glider. And I think that was 94. I got that. And that was a DHC23 back in those days, which is equivalent of a D. So then I went back to, you know, back to C class gliders until I started getting into the Omega X-ALP series. So, yes, 2017. I still doing comps. But I just felt there's more to it and just wanted to do some more adventurous stuff, really.

You guys are. Go ahead. I

was going to say, it's just the freedom that it gives you when you're not constrained by, you know, retrieves or getting back to the car. You know, that's what that's what's so liberating about Volviz.

And what was the, you know, later that year when you did the one night. But when you when you decided to head over to the out. And do your first big one there. What was what was the preparation like? What did you feel like you had to kind of figure out beforehand?

Well, that one I that was in 2018.

And so the one the one day one the year before was I'd been down for four or five days staying with a friend, Nigel Cooper down in St. Andre. And he knows that area like the back of his hand. I know pretty well from quite a few comments. Over the years.

So on that one, it was just basic kit. He I think I don't even think I had a stove for that one. I think he just, you know, we just use his little stove. So is on. Yeah, that was, if you like, a proving ground. I borrowed someone's air mattress, which went down in the night. I just I didn't. I had a bivvy bag, no tent or anything like that. And it rained for about actually only 20 minutes. We incredibly lucky because there were thunderstorms. But so, yeah, sleep was a little bit hard to come by that night. But, you know, just for one night, you can put up with it.

So that was a sort of trial and ground. But I mean, I suppose in terms of preparation for the next trip again, I did it with Nigel, actually. So we had a sort of big plan of where we wanted to go in terms of kit. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the fun things about it, isn't it? Just sort of spending days, weeks, months, sort of pouring over kit and, you know, looking at videos and getting stuff from AliExpress, you know, cheap tents and the like. And that is all part of the fun, I think, for most people doing that kit research.

Yeah. I like, you know, it's funny to think back. There's that scene in the in the Alaska film where I'm like, I can't believe we forgot gators. We had six years to prepare for this thing. You know, I had my stuff laid out for that. And then I'm like, I'm going to do that trip in, you know, like January. You know, I've got this sunroom in the back of the house and, you know, OK, well, that's got to go. OK, well, that can come out, you know, just tweaking and tweaking and tweaking for months. And then we get up there and no gators. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty cool. Schoolboy era. Schoolboy era for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, take us down the road for where did you go? Where did you end up? How was your approach? You know, what I what I kind of want to fleece out a little bit is just, you know, for those that are embarking on a journey. What are the things that you think about when you're embarking or thinking about embarking on their first bivvy?

What are kind of the critical things? What do people need to know? What do they not need to know? What do they need to be concerned about?

I mean, I would say don't overthink it too much, really. But, you know, you want to especially if you if you're going to the Alps for the to do it. But I mean, you could just, you know, here in the UK, you can you could have a simple one or two night bivvy in the mountains of South Wales. Or the hills. You know, you're not going to fly hundreds of kilometers, obviously.

But you don't have to have fun. You know, you can fly 20 or 30 kilometers, have a hike and then a camp. And then so it's all it's all, you know, don't don't make it too much of a big thing. I think is the overall message. I mean, if you're going to the Alps, you have to plan it a bit more. But again, you know, you might have this great. Trip plans, you know, from one side of the Alps to the other. But at the end of the day, it's just a series of flights and hikes. And in the Alps, especially, there's always places to find water and food. So you don't need to carry too much with you. Yeah. Does that answer that question? Yeah.

I'm trying. I'm thinking about to like, are you are you doing are you still using a bivvy sack? Are you just using a tarp or using a tent? How heavy is your gear? Drill down a little bit more on on the gear you're using for these Alps trips.

Sure.

So I do actually have a kit list as a Google sheet so I can share that

in the show notes. We'll put that in there.

But just to sort of run through some of the things I use. I mean, because because the.

I think in the Alps, especially, you're not in the middle of nowhere. There's always places you can find shelter if the weather is terrible. I haven't gone for a particularly expensive tent at all. In fact, far from it. The tent. I use a tent now rather than a tarp or a bivvy bag. It's it's one called 3F Ultralight. I can't remember the model name, but yeah, it's like 60 quid from on AliExpress. It's just a single single skin. And it's a really good tent. But with use one of your walking poles as the main sort of central pole. But it's it's fine. I mean, I'm six foot four ish six foot three and I can fit in it. So, yeah, that does the job. And it's it's it's waterproof, which is.

You know, all you want for you wouldn't want to spend all day in it, of course. But yeah, so it's not you know, it's not like, you know, if I was doing a trip like one of yours, you know, the Alaska. You want something a bit better for sure.

Yeah, I always it's it's it's interesting because I've gotten a lot of comments over the years, both from the Rockies one and the Alaska one. Why are you guys carrying so much gear and it looks so heavy and you could have done this and you could have done this. And my feeling around bivvy is that we're not racing. You know, it's it's not the X-Alps that, you know, I've I've I've put to get put all this energy into putting together this trip. I'm not trying to make it end. I want to be out there. And like you say, you're not I'm never trying to crunch kilometers on baby. I mean, you know, if you're handed a gift wrapped a beautiful day, then take advantage of it. Go for it. But, you know, to me, it's about the you know, I love the camping and the tramping and the, you know, just watching the sunsets.

I'm not in a hurry. And so and then the flip side is I also I want to eat really well and I want to be super comfortable. And I want a tent that I can sit in. I want to sit up in and listen to podcasts and write my journal. And I just I guess I find that it's better to put a little bit more effort into being fit. And, you know, like I like my little espresso maker. I love that stuff because you've got all this time. You know, if if you wake up in the morning and you're just like, oh, we just got to go. Well, then, you know, of course, you're you can go a lot lighter, but, you know, you can go X out style for sure. But I don't know. I'm not. I'm never in a hurry. And I don't I just don't mind carrying the extra weight. And then if you carry the extra weight, you need better food. You know, you're you're I often find you are a little bit sleep compromised.

And so, you know, food and being comfortable helps.

Yeah, you're right there. I mean, I I the most expensive bit of my kit is the is a sleeping mattress, the air mattress bed. And so I've got a thermo rest near which.

Yeah, she's really good. Nice and warm. It does the trick. And for the first. Well, up until this year, I just used my glider to sleep under. And then I was we had this discussion with some friends about, you know, pros and cons of sleeping bag versus a quilt versus, you know, versus under. Sleeping under your wing. And this year I I made I sacrificed talking about coffee, coffee makers. I ditched my little espresso machine, a little mocha thing and instead use the way to. Yeah, I bought a quilt, a down quilt. And that was that was really nice and comfortable. Actually, that was perfect.

You know, I don't like the feeling of being zipped up in a in a tight sleeping bag. But a quilt was just work work. And I think that's what I like about it. I think it's really well.

Oh, interesting. So what what I do is I have a really good sleeping bag. Now, if it's a summer baby, then I can go to a much warmer bag by that mean a warmer rated bag, you know, and down. But I have the I have a down bag that's like a zero degree bag for, you know, for something like Alaska. But then when I add to that and again, this is extra weight, but I just have a silk liner. You know, it's like a little mini it's like another sleeping bag. And then, you know, because if you're going for days and days and days, you're kind of gross. And that just keeps your bag nicer. And it's also just really comfy. You know, it's kind of so that's but that's a little bit on the plush end of things.

But a quilt is a good idea. I hadn't thought about that. That's a great idea. I mean, this whole like, you know, sleeping in your wing socks or sleeping. I what I do with you're totally right about the pad. You got to have a pad. And what I do is put the pad. I put I still put the wing underneath the pad. You know, so I kind of a thin little pad and then it's just extra, you know, but then it's not making the noise. And it's just a little bit extra cushion. I'm getting old. I need the cushion.

Yeah. I'm trying to putting the wing under it. I know. I know a friend of mine did on one of the trips, but it seems like actually sleeping on top of your wing is going to be squashing it. And if you're, you know, turning over three or four times or an hour, which I seem to do, you're probably going to end up trashing it. So, yeah, I haven't done that.

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carry about well you know one of those for breakfast and you know a few spare ones um just as you know extra extra food if i needed it and the only the only trouble with them is that well my wife and kids were uh totally winding me up the very first time i did it because it looked very suspicious you know these packets of sort of white and brown substances they were saying how are you going to get that through the yeah i've had

that one it's

part of the sniffer dog but i mean yeah but i'd recommend that stuff you know you get banana flavor you get chocolate flavor and uh it's very easy and you know it worked out super cheap for just uh a breakfast yeah

you know what i started doing this seemed to work pretty well was i would just take a ziploc with the powdered milk and mix in a bunch of brown sugar and that would be my you know that'd be for my cereal or for my coffee you know i'd just take you know if you like sweetened coffee which usually i just do cream or something but that was kind of a nice way to get rid of a bag and just have one thing you know a little bit more calories a little more glycos which is good um yeah yeah and then i i changed my coffee from uh you know when you just do the pour over coffee through a through a paper filter and then you huck the paper filter that this is just a permanent one of those it's just a metal mesh one you know so it fits down in my pot really perfectly and i could just put the coffee in there and then there's no trash there's nothing to burn you know it's kind of nice you just reuse it

yeah yeah um i took some coffee bags this last time and didn't didn't actually use as many of them as i as i thought i would but but they were they were they were great actually very tasty but yeah someone's giving me a little um a little sort of plastic mesh thing that you can just tip coffee into and then dunk that in your in your you know cup of boiling water just like a tea bag so i'll give that again because actually those those coffee bags are quite expensive so

this this first one you did in in 2018 where did you start and where did you end and what were kind of the were the highlights i

mean that well it was basically from uh colder blaine i started and then we i met up with nigel on route i mean that first day was just just ridiculous really i left home at something like three o 'clock in the morning i live in bath and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna go to the uk uh caught a flight from bristol airport which is about an hour's drive away um to nice so i arrived at nice at about 10 30 in the morning and i was a friend of mine marcus marcus king um he met me there at nice airport which is very kind of him drove me up to colder blaine and we were at colder blaine takeoff for sort of midday

half 12 was in the air heading north and i met nigel uh sort of on the on the dormelouse ridge he was you know he'd been flying from saint andre and we met up crossed over the lac de serpensan together and we just had epic flight we we landed high uh above the ski resort of orciers and so it's just you know how can that be possible to be at home at three o 'clock in the morning and then that evening you're camping on a french mountain top it was just incredible you know and especially after an epic flight you know like 120 kilometers or something i think it was uh just amazing and

that zone i mean describe it for those who haven't flown i just got the hugest grin on my face ever because i've spent quite a bit of time down in that you know in the maritimes it's just it's epic down there um describe kind of what you're what the scenery is like i think people don't understand how big it is

yeah i mean it's not as big as you know the alps further north the northern alps um but they're still plenty great big mountains compared to what you see in the uk clearly and you know by the time you by the time you work your way up the dormelouse um you know you you've gone past some pretty pretty big peaks you've gone past the tecta la strop which is i don't know offhand but it must be around about 3 000 meters um and then and the terrain up to there is all it's pretty rocky and rugged and you got some serious boonies once you go you know once you've gone sort of 20k north of saint andre you're in uh you've got about i would say another 20k of

pretty boony

countryside then you get onto the dormelouse ridge and then you've got the um lac de serpensan which is beautiful uh just you know by the time you get there it's in the afternoon you've got the sun sparkling on the water and it's bright blue waters and the other side of the lake you've got the ekrins which have got some very big peaks you know up to 4 000 meters um you know it it's pretty mind-blowing really what

time was this

june spectacular uh no this was um um um!

!

but but but but but but but but but but for sure it's windy and but it's the obvious places where you where you have the valleys leading into the higher mountains on that trip we for the next day we we flew sort of we took the roundabout route out towards Grenoble rather than sort of you know deep wouldn't be quite a tiger line you know straight north through the equines that's a dream for another year yeah maybe yeah but yeah it's sort of traditional route and and then the second night we just I just I camped well we had a lovely plight we've done 60 kilometers or something and we the weather was there was some big clouds building and we just flew over this beautiful spot at the is called Taylor massive detail if and it's sort of not far from Grenoble really it's you know it's a really beautiful place and it's a really beautiful place and it's got this you fly over these sort of peaks and then you've got a plateau dotted with little lakes and it was just magnificent so we decided to you know call it a day after sort of 60k and and a beautiful spot to land right by the lake and the first the very first thing I did I got out I landed you know 50 yards from the lake I suppose and dump my glider dumped everything and I just I I'd had an accident with the P tube it just completely totally pissed my trousers and so yeah just dive straight in the in the lake it was the water was

fantastic so yeah so sorted out those little little challenge shall we say and then you know

I'll do that and then got on with the business of pitching the tent and folding it up and then I got off the glider and stuff like that but yeah what a what a perfect spot that was really nice and

what was the well I'll let you keep going the rest of it but just before you keep going with the rest of this trip though what was the style of it you know what what did you and Nigel agreed to beforehand was there a you know you're staying together no matter what or you going as far as you can or did you have like when you wake up in the morning did you have an objective or did you just not let's just go flying

we had originally sort of plan to try and you know get to Chamonix and maybe further into Switzerland but actually after on on day two on that on that flight we completely changed our plan because the the weather further north was looking unsettled so we we ended up sort of doing a triangle around the outside of the Ekren the next day we flew over towards the Brianson in fact we landed in Brianson and then the following day we flew back down to Saint Andre so that was the shortest trip so we were we were we had no fixed objective each you know we prepared to change change plans in the air and change plans from day to day you know that's a great thing you just go with the flow really I think you know if you if you set out to do a trip to fly the whole length of the Alps and you realize the weather was really pretty poor further north then you could have a you know you could still have a brilliant week flying around the Ekrens and you know the Alps maritime there's plenty to fill your boots there yeah

and how did you guys how did you guys meet in the air that first day like well actually let me rewind did you were these dates just set you're going no matter what to Nice or is it the kind of thing because you're in the UK you can just pull the oh weather looks good let's go well

you could do that but um we know you know most times you do have to sort of actually take a day you know and just sort of stick with it unless unless it's really and really poor and in fact that I need to go back to how we met in the air but that brings me on to sort of this year's trip um where there was eight of us who who met up in Saint Andre and but we met up on the Sunday this is sort of end of July this time and the forecast really wasn't that great you know the first two days down in the Alps maritime were forecast to be pretty windy and then unsettle further north and we were having these discussions do we go don't we go and I think if I'd been on my own I probably would have bailed on it but um actually when we were there the first days flying Monday we had a

fantastic day flying you know 100k north second day was great too um so you just gotta it just goes to show really you've got to you've got to sort of be there um yeah be in it to win it I think is what they say yeah

and I mean I think there's also a there's a lot to be said for kind of I call this the Nick Nainan's approach you know he does bivvies all over the world you know it's it doesn't have to it can be a long ways from banger you know you can get a little 10k glide over morning glory in the morning and that's your flying day and it's epic you know you know you're out you're basically you've just taken a flight you probably never would have as an experienced pilot because it's not that good it's not a day to go flying but it's totally safe and it's really really really pretty and you get to spend the day in the mountains you know and uh so you yeah it's you can do a lot with bivvy that's what I love about it so much yeah

I mean exactly so whatever you do some sort of adventure is a

lot of fun and you know you're

you're not it's the flying is is fantastic and yeah it'd be pretty upsetting to spend a week and just get you know 10k glides in every day uh rather than any any sort of proper cross country flights but you know I'm sure if that did happen you'd still have fun it'd still be a memorable trip um so yeah it's it's more than it's more than just about the flying it's the people you meet on the way and the places you see the whole sort of the whole experience um just going back to sort of how we met up how I met up with Nigel in flight um

pretty simple really he was using uh I mean we I could see him I use fly sky high um as my sort of instrument of choice on my phone and so that that will display your friend's live track um Nigel was using he doesn't use an iphone he uses uh he was using xc track but yeah he had another live track 24 app on his phone so I could basically see him on my phone and like you know I knew where he was I could see him were

you guys using radios too or just just that yeah

we did we did um yeah we did when we got closer yeah oh

wicked that's that's that's pretty sexy that's good yeah it's so

well it worked fine it was it was really good yeah I mean plus we might I think I probably you know messaged him um um using telegram whilst I was in the air saying you know I've taken off or something yeah so he would have got that as well

let's let's let's pause on this real quickly what are what what have you got with you electronically yeah

so I mean we've got the cameras and that sort of stuff so the gopro um is what I had this year previously I've had a um you know a cheap Chinese equivalent which actually is more reliable I should say get a Garmin man get a

Garmin they're so much better I have to I have to plug that verb in the gopro yeah it's really nice

yeah oh well I've got to make the I've got to make this gopro investment last a little bit longer but maybe yeah of course um so yeah I've got that um radio this year I bought a you know the little stand for the charging stand for the radio and a little uh step up transformer cable to make it work

and I've got a little uh a little uh a little uh a little uh a little uh a little

work off USB because you know it's not a USB radio um it's a few years older um but in terms of yeah instruments and you know flight deck I had the I've got the Garmin InReach mini um so that's really nice uh to have to have that and to have the tracking on um I've got uh my very I had a XC Racer 2 flam just a bit of reassurance to know that all those yeah cell cell planes buzzing around you down in the Alps are gonna um gonna see know you're there and yeah just my phone and a battery of course but a phone running uh price guy high so yeah oh yeah well and to charge it all um an anchor uh solar uh power pack how

how big is the do you know the wattage of the solar 50

yeah 15 watts 15

also pretty good size okay yeah

it's got two two panels oh yeah

it's got two two panels oh yeah it's got two two panels oh yeah it's got two

um and actually the way I did it I've got two two of the anchor 10 000 milliamp batteries yeah so I had you know they both start off fully charged after the first day one's getting low um so the next day I'll charge up that one whilst I'm flying um and use the fresh one you know on my flight deck uh where

do you hang the panel when you're flying

yes I had to I had to do a bit of experimentation to get this working properly um but yeah it it's tied on to uh basically not not the sort of carabiners but yeah close to the carabiners and then I have it um folded out on my legs but I I tried it once in the UK before before the trip and it every time I put the speed bar on or every time I went a little bit faster just blow up in my face so I end up putting a little bit of elastic round you know from the bottom corners of it around the bottom corners of the carabiner and then I put it on the carabiner but then I had to had had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had a had Lightness 3.

Okay. Yeah. And it's a fantastic combination, really. I got the X-Alps 3 last summer, so summer 2019. It arrived two days before my plans evolved in 2019. I was humming and harring because I had the X-Alps 2, which is a three-liner. Do I take the one I know or do I take the brand-new two-liner? Luckily, I had an hour's flight on it on my local site on the day before I was due to fly out. And having had that hour's flight, I thought, right, you've got to take the new one, really.

And I spoke to Greg Hamilton as well, who also had one, and he said, yeah, you've got to take the new one. So, yeah, it was a great decision.

His advice. When I had him on the show was that when you're going bivvy or going light, so either one, you should step down. You know, if you're normally flying a two-liner E &D, it's probably best to go down to an E &C, you know, maybe even a high-end E &C or mid-level E &C or something for when you're going light, either light gear or if you're going bivvy. Do you agree with that?

I think it's a general rule, yeah. Yeah. I think it's pretty sensible because it's not all about the flying. You know, whether you do 90K or 100K, you know, if you had a two-liner, you might do a little bit further, but it's not that important. You're not racing anyone. It's just the views and the experience that you're after. But, I mean, not everyone has the luxury of having two wings, you know, especially a lightweight wing. I've just got the one glider.

And I've only ever had one glider at a time. So, you know, you take what you've got, basically. And for me, yeah, I've been flying 30 years and I've gone from the OXA 1 to the 2 and now the 3.

You know, going from a three-liner D to a two-liner D, it didn't feel like a step up in how it handles. In difficulty or anything like that, it was, if anything, it's sort of easier to fly. So, yeah, I think it's a, for me, it's a lovely wing. Nice, nice sweet spot. Yeah. I mean, for sure, if I'd had something like a Yotta 2, not the Yotta 2, the Z. And I should mention that I didn't do this in my sort of bio at the beginning, but I've been an advanced ambassador and advanced expert. I've been a serial team pilot for, well, since 2014. So, yeah, I'm like advanced kit.

Yeah. But that's enough of that sort of plugging. But yes, I would have had just as much fun on an advanced Z or any other sort of lightweight wing, really. But for me, yeah, having the two-liner is lovely, especially in such a light form factor.

The lightness, does that have a carbon seat board or is it just a hammock?

It's just a hammock. Yeah.

And anything you want to say about that? You know, 30 years of flying, you know, imagine you spent most of that time flying a seat board. Was there much adjustment? Was there much getting used to it? Pluses, minuses?

Actually, my wing, prior to the Lightness 3, I had a Lightness 2, which is also a hammock one. And prior to that, I had a Impress 3, which was also a hammock one. So I hadn't had a seat board since my Impress 2. So, which is quite a lot. But the very first time I went in the Impress 3, yes, I was quite taken aback about how much feedback it gave you.

But the designs in the Lightness range, you know, the 3 is more, what do you say, roll stable, I guess, than the 2. But even the 2 was fine. So I personally like the comfort of just having the hammock. I just don't feel I need, I don't feel a seat board will give me any more. I'm quite happy with the hammock as it is.

And how do you pack it? Is that, you know, because when I, let's see, I'm trying to remember what I had in, I had the Delight 2, I believe. But I had the, you know, it has a pad. And so I had to remove, to make space, I removed the back pad. Actually, no, you know, it was one system. So I had no pad. It was, you know, so I would, I was real careful about how I put everything in, in terms of the sleeping bag and the sleeping pad under my butt. You know, I was trying to get most of the soft stuff under my butt. But what do you, is that Lightness, does it have plenty of space? Is it an airbag or can you just pack around it or do you have to remove stuff?

So there is a massive compartment right underneath the seat, which is when you're just doing normal XC flying or whatever, it's got this big foam. A cushion in. So once I realized how easy it was to take that out, you know, in that compartment, I could put my tent, my sleeping quilt, my mattress,

a poncho and a couple of other things as well. So, yeah, it's all nice, soft stuff. So that it probably gives you, you know, as good a protection as in there anyway. Sure. So, yeah. So that gets rid of all that sort of soft, bulky stuff. Food and the sort of food is quite heavy. That I got most of that in the sort of ballast compartment, which was, you know, which is underneath your legs in front of the pod.

And that left the back compartment. So, yeah, on the Lightness 3, actually, it's got two, it's got the, it's got a foam. It's got a foam layer and then it's got fast tech sort of slightly harder, more plasticky, more rigid protection. So I took that, that last a bit out of the fast tech bit, bit out and just left the foam in there. And then, you know, you shove everything else in there. So, yeah, there was, there was sufficient storage, you know, there was not, you know, there's, there's probably harnesses. Yeah.

Better suited for, you know, doing longer Vol Bivs for sure. But for, you know, week, 10 days, two weeks, Lightness 3 is absolutely fast.

Yeah. Yeah. And

the Lightness 2 as well. They're pretty much identical really in terms of capacity, I think.

And what do you use for a rucksack?

Yeah. I just got the standard one that comes, comes with the. With the Lightness? With the Lightness. Okay. Yeah. And that's, that's pretty good. It's got my side pockets. Do you know how big it is? Yeah. It's a 90 liter one.

90 liter. Okay. And that's plenty of space for your seven days of food.

Yeah. I mean, sufficient. Everything has to be packed in pretty well. You

got to

do a good job. Yeah. It, it, you can't just chuck it in. And in fact, when I get to go flying normally in the UK, like I was flying just a couple of days ago for a little hour soaring. I was, I was, I was thinking, how, how do I get all my Vol Biv stuff in this? It's, it doesn't seem to be much spare space in it, but once you actually pack it carefully and you know, you've, you've taken out some of the padding and you know, it all fits in fine. Yeah.

And are you guys utilizing, you know, grocery stores, huts? Yeah. Are you ever trying to top land and spend a night in luxury? Or is it all just kind of on the go? The

preference really is the preference is landing high and sleeping on the mountain top for me. I mean, that was. You know, that that's what the whole experience is about. Really? I like on this, this year's trip. Uh, one of the sort of best days for me actually was, uh, I mean, it was not the day. I mean, I had an amazing flight on one day all the way from, from sort of down to Belen's owner. Um, but then I landed, I landed low on that flight, you know, landed in goal at the Belen's owner landing field. And then I had to find somewhere to camp, um, in a sort of, you know, slightly built up environment. And I, after a bit, I did find quite a nice place, but it, it wasn't the same.

The next day I was expecting to have to do a lot of hiking because the weather forecast didn't seem that great, but actually I did start hiking, walked about half an hour. Then the sun started coming out. I thought this is, this is mad. Uh, so I turned around and actually, you know, caught the gondola up to the. Take off at more nearer. I think it's called Belen's owner. I ended up having a wicked, you know, a hundred K flight. And I landed on this sort of plateau, had an hours hike up to, uh, I didn't know where it was, but it was called Monte Padre. And just on my own up there, beautiful views all around, um, few goats knocking around with a sort of goat bells tinkling away. And that's the essence of it to me.

Um, so that day, yeah, I had a fantastic flying, but the whole, the whole day was probably the, you know, the best day just because of the beauty of where you end up, uh, you know, camping.

So I got to hear about your flight from Verbiere to Belen's owner. Cause that's exactly the opposite of my best day in the 2015 race that really put us back into it. You know, 18th to eighth that day I went, I started in Belen's owner and I actually hiked. It was really stable. We had a really. Brutal inversion. So I hiked, I don't know, another thousand above morning air, uh, you know, from the, so from that night we were kind of in Belen's owner. And so hiked up above way above that morning air launch up in those big mountains up behind you and then flew to Verbiere. Uh, you know, that was back when the Matterhorn was a turn point. So through that zone and then stayed really super tall and kind of floated into Verbiere later that evening. And it was really strong headwind all day.

So it was, that was an exceptional. Uh, day, but what, what was, what was your route going the other way?

Oh, I mean, that sounds awesome flight. You, you described that. It was just,

it was unbelievable because well, and most of that, you know, when I got into the Zermatt Valley and was pressing up into, I mean, it was a really windy day. This was not a wreck. And that was a day that, uh, you know, Ponza and the Korean both flew and wave the Korean got up to like 5,000 meters in, in was flying. And, uh, you know, it was, it was strong headwind. So you were flying in the Lee all day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pressing and then taking your hits and pressing. And, and, but when I got into the Zermatt Valley, everybody that it was in front of me, you know, from Bellinzona, basically I just cut the corner and went straight through that kind of, you know, there's the big C that goes up to the Arolo and then the Newfoundland. And I just went straight across all that stuff. Just like, I just, I got to take some risk here where there's no way we're going to get to Monaco. So knowing that if I bombed out, basically my race was over, but, uh, you know, so I just went straight and then suddenly ended up kind of between the simplon pass and the Newfoundland pass.

And like suddenly recognized where I was. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm, you know, one more move. And I'm in the Zermatt Valley. Holy cow. And when I got into the Zermatt Valley and there was, you know, there's Gushel Bauer. No, it wasn't Gushel Bauer who was, uh, Ferdinand and, you know, all these guys that had been, were way ahead of me that morning. Oh, I really caught up. I really caught up. And almost everyone went up and tagged the Matterhorn and then came back down the Zermatt Valley to cross the Rhone and get on the other side and keep going. And they, but my, my supporter, Bruce. Kept sending me messages as they were watching me going into there. Like, don't come back down here. And the valley winds were cranking up from, uh, you know, from the West. And, and so I just stayed high. I got a big, tall climb over the glacier and, and just bobbled across the top of, you know, above, you know, on the sea on side.

I mean, of the, you know, the South side of the Rhone, but you know, you just, you'd kind of take a beating on each one of those fins. And then eventually I just logged into Verbier, which is kind of where one of the places I learned in the Alps. You know, years. Years ago. So that was very special, you know, late in the day looking down. Oh, I know this place.

Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Well, I mean, the line we took, uh, Chris and I with, uh, uh, my mate Chris Ashdown, um, we, we'd spent, um, well, I'd spent a couple of nights in Verbier. The day before it'd been pretty rubbish weather. And actually, um, yeah, my, my Volbibs, uh, are not so pure, purest. They're not, they're not. Sure. Netting. So really camping in a, in, you know, camping every night. If there's a, if there's a, if I remember, there's a, uh, an apartment that my, uh, my brother's wife's family own in Verbier. I'm going to, I'm going to use it. And I did. Um, uh, so I pitched up there for a couple of nights. Then that the, the day of the flight, we, Chris and I, we hiked up, um, to the takeoff.

Uh, it's a quite decent height. You know, it's like three hours. I don't know how many meters vertical. I mean, you'd do it in half the time. Gavin, but for us, it was, uh, yeah,

that's a, that's a, that's a good

old hike. Yeah. But, um, yeah, we met these couple of Swiss pilots, um, up on takeoff and they, they in fact suggested flying to Benin's owner. So we thought, yeah, why not? It, it, it was a, it seemed like a sensible plan because the forecast for the next few days was, was windy in the, you know, you know, the, uh, Western and Northern Switzerland. Um, so getting down South and using that. As an entry into Italy sounded like a good plan. Um, so yeah, we, we just, um, we, we popped over the sea on Valley from verbier at the first move. We took off about midday, um, and then just pretty straightforward sort of route all the way up to fish.

Um, and we hopped South over the Rhone Valley, just past fish and over. I can't remember the name of the. Pass.

It is

the new from. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. How do you say that? I

don't know if I'm saying it right either, but new from there, I

call it the new. Yeah. Okay. And that takes you into the Rola Valley. And so, yeah, um, that, that going over the past was, was spectacular. Some high peaks. Um, yeah,

that's beautiful in there.

Uh, yeah, it was lovely. It was question. We didn't quite know. I mean, I was, Chris was a few K behind me at this point. I was just on my own. I didn't know quite where to go. You know, there wasn't much working there and it wasn't actually until I got into the Rola Valley that, um, started finding good climbs again. And yeah, just followed the valley down and, you know, after seven, three quarter hours, so I was in.

Glorious. Couldn't believe it. I just, you know, my furthest ever flight in the Alps or longest in the air and just sat down in the landing field. Just go, wow. Yeah. It was incredible. Yeah.

That's a special feeling. How were you? The thing

is, I was happy to, you know, happy to land there cause I didn't think the forecast was that good for the next day. And I thought I'd just do a bit of sightseeing around Belenzona, but actually, you know, that whole business of being in a sort of more built up area, a town carrying your rucksack around 20, 20 odd, 23 kilos. Everything came to it. It's quite difficult really. So, you know, I don't know what had it. Well, I ended up not even thinking about sightseeing. I was just going to go and hike. Uh, and then I turned around and, you know, my plans changed and I got the gondola up and then had that really nice flight. But it's always difficult when you, if you end up low down and you you're in a town, uh, like later on in that trip, I ended up in the beach, a term a in the evening.

Where the hell do you find somewhere to, you know, get a good night's sleep? I mean, I pitched a tent in a town. And so on that occasion, I hiked up a hill, but I started hiking towards takeoff only a little bit. And then up there was this old house that was being renovated and that you'd like a cement mixer in it. And I think there was a digger somewhere and some building waste. And I just sort of took my way, took myself around the side, um, on a bit of grass. So that wasn't very glamorous that night. Um, so you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Yeah. And I mean, it's style is important to it, isn't it? I mean, there there's the, the, the Alps are just so well suited for what we're talking about. Um, and, but it is nice to, it is nice to avoid that if you can, because it just, it really takes you out of it. I mean, this is the thing I can't stand about the ex-Alps and this isn't a sustainable attitude because obviously you want to get to Monaco. That's the point, but getting to Monaco in 2015, you know, you, you've, you've, you've, you've just had this, you're, you're in the mountains, proper Alps, and it's just so beautiful and so spectacular and all these fun little villages and huts and peaks. And then you get to Monaco and just doesn't, it doesn't add up. It's it, it's really disoriented. You know what I mean?

You're just in this concrete jungle. So yeah. And so if you can, if you can bypass places like Bellinzona all the better, and that takes me to the question, which is how important is top landing? And let's, let's talk about scale. Let's talk about skills a little bit, because I do feel like, yeah, skills and weather. I want to ask you kind of how you also, you know, navigate and deal with, with weather, you know, you just getting it on your phone and that kind of thing. So I'm asking too many questions here, but talk about all that. Let's talk about the skill side a little bit.

Yeah. Well, we've last year, sorry, this year, last trip, we, we sort of opened it up to try and encourage. Yeah. You know, people like I was a few years ago who fancy giving vol biv a go, but I'm quite plucked up sort of courage to do it, you know, to give them a chance to do it in, in, as part of a group. And so you do need to have flown in, in, in the Alps, in, in some mountains.

You know, you, you've got to have a more than just a passing understanding of Valley winds, and you know, weather conditions in the Alps.

Because yeah,

it's not just like going off on a downwind cross country in the UK where you can just land anywhere. You, you've got to be aware of your surroundings, aware of the terrain, aware of what the wind is doing. And I, you know, I've got it wrong a couple of times flown into places where in hindsight, pretty stupid. But yeah. We all, we all make mistakes.

Yeah. That's almost unavoidable really. I mean, I guess that's, that's definitely something you should know before you start. You're going to, if you're doing a bivvy, you're going to most likely get into a position where you're, you're not that psyched with.

Yeah. But I mean, one, one guy on our trip a couple of years ago, he had flown some good distances out in Bia, I think it was. But it didn't really prepare him. It didn't really prepare him for, for the complexity of the Alps. So yeah, we wouldn't want anyone coming on, on, on the trip with you know, he's not flown in the Alps before. I mean, I do some competitions out, out there, you know, the, like the what are the various little competitions? The, the Sharpa open at La Ragna. Get it, get a feel for flying in that, in that part of the world. There's, there's quite a few of those sort of, you know, intermediate level comps that will, that will give you a good, you know, understanding of what's going on out there.

I mean, in terms of skills, sort of flying skills, I mean, like you always say, top landing is the ability to do that is, is paramount, but there's always, there's always places to land. You don't have to top land. You can land down in the, in the valleys, but I mean, I'm not saying we all need to have Chrigel or Patrick von Cannell's skills that sort of, you know, fly on the wall landings, however nice it would be to have them. You know, we're not, we're not preparing for the ex-Alps here, are we? Well, you are of course, but for us, you know, it's not, it's not that critical just on a, on a regular little vol biv trip. So you, you're picking sensible places to land rather than, you know, you're, you're, you're kind of like, Whoa, there's a poachers step.

I need to land here or else I'm down in the valley bottom. It's not, we're not quite doing the same thing.

I would, I would put out a little listener, just a heads up and maybe a PSA here real quick that, you know, I know many of you listening probably follow Chrigel and, and Patrick and you know, they've been doing this top landing challenge thing and it's all just unreal. It's awesome what these guys are doing. I've been working really hard at this kind of for the last six months. And I will just put out there that this is super top level. It's not necessary. You don't need to learn how to top land like that. And you know, I would just put a warning that this is, this is extremely top level flying that these guys are doing and, and showing, and they're, they're obviously, they're not bragging.

They're not putting it out there to try to inspire other people to do it. I don't think. And so don't be, don't be overly inspired to go learn that. It's an awesome skill and it's great to have in your toolkit, of course, but it's not really necessary to do you know, awesome babies. I had no idea that this even existed for all the big babies that I've done. I, I'd never seen that or even thought about it and yeah, just heads up. You get that timing wrong. It is really extreme.

You're totally right there. I mean, yeah, I've never needed to do anything like that. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, in terms of weather forecasting, yeah, I've, um, we, we use Matthew parapoint, which was, I mean, it's, it's, uh, the information is presented in a really nice, easy, understandable way as to whether it's accurate or not. I don't know. One of the, one of the days, uh, on this trip, it was forecasting really strong winds in the Trento Valley. And I got there and there was nothing really. Um, and it sort of changed. Slightly changed my plans. I ended up sort of landing when maybe I need the blended.

I guess you don't want to just use one, one source. We will also looking at, um, soaring Metro as well. It's a little more complex, but that gives you a good, a good, uh, overview a few days out looking at thermal quality. What other ones sometimes they're just getting an overview of the weather. Yeah. You know, sometimes just whether it's sunny or not, it's going to be all, all you need. So, you know, Matthew Swiss is a, is a good app actually. That gives you, if you wind, you know, actual wind speeds in the valleys, which is nice to know.

Yeah. I was going to say, are you checking anything on the fly?

Well, yes, sometimes. Um, yeah, like this year I had a flight from San Bui to, to sort of just pass Martin, the, you know, landing. I ended up landing in, in the sea on Valley made a little bit of a mistake there in my route choice or decision-making at the very end. And so, but before, before I reached that decision point, I had opened up the Metis Swiss app and I checked the winds, um, in the sea on, and I could see that it was like 20 kilometers an hour. So I thought, well, you know, that's fine. If I do end up landing down in the Valley there, it's going to be manageable. And on that board, I was able to, I was able to, I was able to, I was able to, I was able to get in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a

selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected

direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected

direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected

direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected direction in a selected I've

usually, when I'm in Europe, I'm using the Medio Swiss. It's really terrific. I mean, I think the point here for those who haven't flown in the Alps is that valley winds can often be an issue. And they're not an issue if you know about them because you just land high, you know, side land, or you just don't subject yourself to them. And it's no problem. So I think it's a good thing to be observing if you can. And that's a whole other skill level, you know, checking your phone and tapping into all that kind of stuff. But having some of that tech really helps. And like you said, I mean, in terms of the accuracy or non-accuracy, you know, in 2015, we did it on the fly. You know, my buddy Bruce did all the weather in 2017 and 2019.

We had an actual weather pro, you know, who was supporting a couple other pilots he has in every race since the beginning, since 2003. And he's a proper, you know. You know, Medio France, he's a pilot and a Medio France weather forecaster in, you know, lives in Chamonix. So he's got the eight screens going and the whole thing. And this isn't a knock against him whatsoever. But, you know, he provides valuable information. But the accuracy of it is not much better than what you get from the apps, really. I mean, and it's often just not accurate. I mean, what we're dealing with, and that, again, it's not a knock on him at all. It's more that we're flying in the micro part of our climate, which a lot of the weather models just don't pick up.

You know, we're being affected by a lot of things at the micro level that the models aren't going to get and often don't get it right. So you kind of, like you said, you kind of got to go to know. Would you agree?

Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of it. It's just observation of what's actually happening. And the air around you, you know, and on the horizon. One thing I learned slightly to my cost last year, 2019, I ended up on that bivy trip, end up in Andamatt. And I'd flown that day from, oh, yeah, just near Fiche, actually. Oh, so Abbotts. And

over the Furka.

Yeah. So I'd taken off at Fiche. Yeah. And actually, it wasn't the, you know, it wasn't the best of conditions. So we didn't get. Oh, yeah. We went over the Furka Pass. That's right. At the. Yeah. Over the Furka Pass and then got to Andamatt. And there's a couple of windmills, wind turbines on the hill to the north of Andamatt. And I was trying to, as I was approaching them, I was looking, seeing which way they were turning. I was trying to work out, well, they're going, they were actually going anticlockwise. But I was just trying to work out, can you tell without knowing which way they turn, whether the wind, whether they're facing into wind or not, you know, relative to you.

And I, because the previous year, I'd done a similar flight from Fiche and had soared up that south facing slope underneath these turbines. I sort of. I sort of convinced myself that that's what the wind was doing rather than the wind normally comes, hits Andamatt, comes from the north there. And anyway, so these, these wind, I, last year, then I ended up getting into a bit of rota just by these turbines. Yeah. Well, not just by them, you know. Yeah. I was well away from them, but in that vicinity, the wind was clearly coming from the north. And I sort of convinced myself on part, based on past experience that it was probably going to be worse. So I was working there. It's the south facing slope. And those turbines must be just reflecting the, the, uh, antibiotic wind blowing up the slope.

And, uh, yeah, so a bit of rota. And I thought that was the end of sort of like eight days. I thought, okay, I'll just, I'll just go and land now. Let's call it a day. I had a good run of it. Right. Um, but there is a rule because wind turbines do always rotate clockwise. Uh, when. When they are facing into the wind, sort of, if you're viewing it from in front of them, as it were. So to try and summarize that, if, if you're looking at a wind turbine and it's going around clockwise, then the wind is blowing from you towards it. And if I just known that simple rule, I would have, uh, I would have known not to go into that little area. Ah,

I didn't know that.

That's interesting. Yeah. So they all, they all turn clockwise when, when, you know. When facing into the wind, when you, when you look at them from in front.

So, yeah, because they don't swivel, right? So what you're saying is if they're, if they're. Oh

yeah, no, they do swivel. Oh, they do. Okay. But they only go around one way.

Ah, okay. Okay. Okay. I'm not, I'm with you. Yeah. Cause we were, boy, we were dealing with a lot of wind turbines down in Texas. It's there. There, there's a pucker factor there for sure. They're big and they look like they're going so slow, but the tips are going at something like two

and a half miles per hour.

205 miles an hour, 105 miles. They're going really fast. They're moving. You don't want to play with those things.

No, no. I, I mean, this is the whole people have discussed about, you know, what's the turbines like behind them, but I sort of think it's not quite as bad as you think. Cause it's not pushing air. It's actually, you know, moving energy from the air, isn't it? Yeah. I just

don't know that we want to drop ourselves into there and find out.

Not out of choice, but they are often good trigger points.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Definitely. No, they, they saved me quite a few times in Texas, but then they didn't sometimes do so. And you're like, Ooh, I get to a road. So what's, what are, what like take me back to that first, the big trip you did with Nigel, when you got done, what were the things you put in your notebook? Okay. Well, we got to do that differently next time. And just gear or food or a route or anything.

Uh, I think I sort of refined gear a little bit, but you're always sort of doing that. But the route again, you know, we didn't have a set route in mind. We would sort of flexible.

No, you know, for the, for the, I did a trip the following year and, uh, I think I pretty much everything I took was, was the same as the previous year. I think this is something we sort of found out on this year's trip. We found ourselves, um, after even after day one. Split up into. Sort of three, three pairs of two.

And that was all, that was all fine because we all had company. But then at the end of the second day, I had a fantastic flight landed in Eugene. Chris was, Ooh, I dunno, maybe 40 minutes behind me. I didn't know where he was. I wasn't seeing him on live track. Um, he didn't know where I was. Our radios weren't really working. Cause I was now down in the Valley. I did. I did hear him just as I was coming into land at Eugene, but I wasn't in a position to reply and ended up, he, he went up a different Valley. He, uh, you know, flew about the same distance. But how do you, how do we been in touch?

We would have, he could have landed with me and we would have had a night together and that, uh, a cool flight, not a couple of days later. Yeah. So Tom's in the air is definitely something that I think we could improve on. Uh, definitely live tracking. Everyone needs to have that up and running and working. I know the flam devices help with the sort of shorter range, uh, uh, seeing where you, where your mates are, but, uh, sort of in its infancy really, because I know apps like fly sky high. You can, at the moment you can't allocate that. I know you can't allocate a name to a flam ID. So you just see this sort of arrow screen. So you don't know who it is, but life life back 24 is probably the, the, the way to go, but plus having an alternative, easy to use means of communicating in the air without necessarily relying on radios.

And I know Gavin, you, you mentioned in, uh, was it your recent one about an app, um, that you were using for like two way, like a walkie talkie app.

Yeah. Zello. Um, we use Zello. And there's others, but it's, it's basically just turning your phone into a radio.

Yeah. And I know you're not going to have internet the whole time, but.

Yeah, but you know what it does is it stores it. So you can, you know, they've got these little, I I've always just used it from the phone, but they've actually got a Bluetooth, a little push button. You can just put on your helmet. So a Bluetooth to your phone and you can, we always just set up a Zello group before we go flying. And, and we, we use that here where we've got. Yeah. And we have like 5 % of the cell that you do in the ALPS. So, I mean, there are places for sure. Like you said, in the ALPS where you're down in a canyon or something, you don't have cell, but it's for the most part, it's pretty good. And you can, you just hit that button on the side of your helmet, like you're hitting a radio and it'll put that message to the group. If you've got it set up that way or to one person, you know, so if I'm just flying with Revis or somebody, I'll just be Revis and I.

And, but the nice thing about it is it also saves it. So if you're not in cell and you just press the button. And it'll record that. And as soon as you are and they are, there's obviously a two way thing here, then that person will get it. So that that's really nice. We used it. We use it a lot in the race because we don't use a radio in the race. It's too much weight. And so that's kind of how we're communicating. I like that a lot more than using, you know, a telegram or WhatsApp. But another thing that we utilize quite a bit when we're flying for location and that kind of thing, like you said, the fly sky high is great or the the live track is great. But we'll turn on, you know, just turn on share your live position for eight hours kind of thing in telegram.

So, again, we'll make a telegram group, same as we would with like the Zello. But we'll just make a telegram group with just the pilots we're flying with that day. This is really handy in terms of for emergency and that kind of thing, too. It's it's super helpful. It just makes it quick. But you and then you can just share your location. Now, the only downside is you're burning a lot of juice, you know, so that's you've got to have your phone connected to an external battery. So I've never used. Are

you burning more juice than if you're using it? I don't think so. You know, I

don't know. I don't know. Fly

sky high or XC track. Anyway, I've

never actually done the it just seems like it's burning through more battery. But do I actually is it actually I don't know. You know, I mean, I've always got that. I use that same battery. You do that anchor 10,000 milliamp. It's great. You know, so that'll keep you going all day. No problem. So I don't know if this is a great multi day solution in a bivy environment. If you can't charge up your stuff, that would definitely I would think it would use more. But those two things. You can do WhatsApp or Telegram. We've been using more. I think Telegram is better at that. But then, you know, and of course, the big qualification here is how good are you with your hands and using the phone in the air? You know, some people can do it. Like, I mean, Revis can do anything on his phone in the air.

He's amazing. And I'm less than that. So, you know, so it depends on how much you like to do stuff in the air. But that can be really great because you just click on it and you can instantly see where their last ping was. You know, so it may. Not be like that. It's it does help. And it's nice to especially when you land to have kind of all those things going and you can you know, you can put together the puzzle pretty quick.

Yeah. I mean, in the UK, we and actually it's been a few other countries that are using it now. We have the thing called XC Retrieve, which uses Telegram. And we've got various different retrieve groups set up around the country. So we've got one in the southwest sort of my area. We've got Wales. We've got sort of central. We've got Lake District, blah, blah, blah. But so when you land, you drop a pin in there and you can your next message is a little message saying packing up. Yeah. Going to hit. Those

are great.

To wherever. And you put the sort of hashtag hash map on it. And then if you go to a website, XCRT.Aero, then you can see all the pins. Yeah. And you can actually share them for everyone in the UK on the same map. So you can you don't even have to be in the same group as them. But you look on this map. You see all that show blogs there and landed a road for me. I didn't know that. And

you can

click on his pin and then message him, and then you might want to share a taxi, or he might have a retrieve driver, and you can sort of share lifts. So, yeah. And we use that in our bold bids as well for sort of sharing positions once we've landed, but it's not so – you sort of don't tend to use it in the air, although it will show you. It shows live track 24 positions as well on it and in reach and spots. So it's pretty flexible. But, yeah, just having the sharing your live position in Telegram just amongst the little group of people you're flying with, actually that could work quite well. Yeah, I'm going to check. We might try that with some – Yeah, it does. It works quite

well. And like I said, the communications app, Zello, is – I couldn't believe how much we used it in the last race. I mean

– I mean,

it was 99 % of our comms. It's unbelievable. It's really great. And it's amazing how well it works here in the West where we have very little cell. I mean, it'll still – as soon as you get to – you got coverage for a minute, boom, boom, boom, they go back and forth, and it's quite useful. Because radios, like you said, I mean, radios are a must, but I'm not going to carry one in the X-Alps. And there's times in Bivy where it'd be nice to not carry that brick. It's another thing. It's

something to

charge, another thing. But I mean, I think for – I don't want to discourage people from carrying radios. I think radios are really key, especially when it comes to emergencies. But yeah, there's other stuff that's valuable. For sure, if you're not going to carry a radio, you got to have an in-reach anyway, just period. But then an in-reach becomes really, really important. That's super handy. And is this – Tim, is this like a guided thing? Like are people paying to go on these or is it just – No, no, no. This is –

We just called it the Gumball Trans-Alps Rally after that Gumball Trans-America film.

Right. That

sort of race. This isn't a race. It's just an excuse to sort of find some people to go bivvying with. I mean, we did get – you get split up pretty rapidly, and I spent most of that, you know, this last trip on my own, which is fine. But, you know, sometimes a bit of company is quite nice. So, yeah, the more the merrier. It's a trip as far as we're concerned as long as, you know, you've got the relevant experience. If you haven't, then hire a guide and do it with a guide. But, no, it's just an idea to –

Encourage people to do it. Get more

people doing it, really. Yeah.

Yeah. And

we've got – within the UK, I set up this Facebook group, the UK vol biv Pilots, and it started off to like 20 or 30 people, and now there's like 350 or almost 400 people in the group. Holy smokes. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. They're not all British pilots. There's a few, you know, from all the rest of the world. That's awesome. Yeah, there's a lot of interest in it. And, you know, from my own experience, you just need a little bit of a push to actually give it a go.

I mean the –

So that was the idea. And we're doing another trip this year or in 2021. I

was going to say, okay, so next – what – now that you've done these, you did the first one in 2018 and 2019. You did one this year in 2022? Yeah. So this is – Yeah, yeah. Okay. What have you refined about timing and where? So where will you go and what time of the year have you decided is kind of the best, is the sweet spot for the next one?

Well, we're still – well, we've got the time. I think we're going to go in July, the middle two weeks of July probably, but basically sometime in July. We haven't – we're trying to decide whether to – you know, do the similar route to what we've done before, i.e. from sort of like Sant Andre northwards and then eastwards from Chamonix. You know, that's a logical route, you know, heading west to east because you've got the general prevailing wind is from the west in those northern Alps. But we quite like the idea of a bit of a change of scenery, maybe, you know, potentially start in Slovenia and –

Go via Austria and then, you know, head into Switzerland from Austria. So, yeah, we're still wondering about that. Or we start in Chamonix and sort of cut out that the first two or three days and just go head east from Chamonix or, you know, Annecy or somewhere like that. So, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I guess if you're going kind of mid-July, you're starting to orient definitely towards the bigger stuff. You're definitely getting into the time of year where you've got stability. It can be an issue down in the lowlands, especially on the Italian side. So, yeah, you're kind of probably wanting to play with the bigger stuff, getting above the inversions.

Yeah. I mean, a few years ago, I did do a little bit of research looking at flights on X contest, you know, which I'd pick a sort of area and just see how many flights over 100K were there in each month. And it seemed like, you know, May and – well, June, let's say, you get some absolutely mega days in June, but you get more non-flyable days in between. By the time you get to July, the weather, yeah, it's a little – it's more settled. So, it's definitely more reliable, but you don't get such, you know, real five-star days. Right. Well, you can do. But, yeah, the stability can be an issue for sure.

You know, in the Albertville Valley, it can get quite stable, you know, between Grenoble and Albertville. And, yeah, like you say, in those Italian sort of lakes regions, it can get pretty stable. Yeah.

So, yeah, next year, maybe try and avoid that bit. But, you know, you just go with the flow. If you've got a few days, some windy days further north, then you sort of progress southward. You know, it's just –

And would you all just – you know, if you've flown into a Venus flytrap area, it just looks terrible. Yeah. And if you've got a few days, would you just get on a train, go somewhere else?

Good question. I think we probably would do. Yeah. You know, just to – like this year, I ended up getting a couple of bus rides to get from where I landed just to the west of Trento to get across to Naviccio Terme. As it happens, it was pretty stable the next day after that. So, yeah.

I made a few kilometers progress, about 40K that last – my final day. But I started slightly kicking myself because I didn't do enough route planning down in that sort of southern Dolomite sort of area. And I should have – from the day before, I should have made my way more to – is it Bolzano? And then across into the Dolomites from there. I think I probably would have got some better air. But, you know, you live and learn, don't you?

That's the beautiful thing about it. I mean, you mentioned – I mentioned beer. You had that pilot that – you know, there's so many places in the world, too, where you can do some really neat – I mean, even Columbia. They're doing some really cool bibbies in the Valladolid. You know, I always go down and just race Rodanillo, you know, and do the same thing every time I go. And, yeah, I mean, there's been lots of really cool stuff being done. You know, and it's just flying up and down that valley. But, you know, there's lots of places to top land, and there's – you know, it's cheap. And, you know, there's places like this. There's

places all over

the world that are really fun. But I like that you guys are focusing on the Alps because it's – you know, I think you learn a lot. And it's just so friendly for it, isn't it? I mean, you don't have to – you don't have to crack yourself. You can take the gondola. You can take the train. You can take the – it's just so easy to get around and move pretty quickly. And, you know, you can keep it pretty nice.

Yeah, yeah. We're not all hardcore adventurers like you, Gavin, or – you know, we're not all hardcore adventurers like you, Gavin, or the likes of, you know, Benjamin Jordan. God, have you seen his latest trip? I just saw that on

Instagram. I was just – I had no idea he was even doing that last year. You know,

it was – No, he kept that very quiet, didn't he? Yeah, yeah. God, all the way from – flying from Mexico up to Canada over, yeah, basically half a year it took him. Yeah, that's –

I mean, it's the line you would take to – it's – holy cow. He would have seen some incredible terrain.

Yeah. I mean, I was definitely sort of missing home. I was missing home comforts after, you know, nine or ten days. So I was quite glad to get home. A nice comfy bed and a nice food again and see the family, et cetera, et cetera. But, I mean, I've been away for, you know, six months, five months. I don't know. That's pretty hardcore. It

is pretty hardcore, yeah. I'm sure it would be an entertaining film. Tim, just before we close up here, you've been at this for a long time. Thirty years. You've heard this question a million times on the show. But if you could go back or you could rewind the clock to your 50-hour self or just, you know, do it all over again, what would you change?

I'll tell you what. I stopped entering flights in our National cross country League a couple of years ago. And that was quite liberating. I, you know, it was nice. I had been, you know, for the last 20 years religiously putting every flight in the cross country League and comparing it. You know, I was going to go back to other flights, you know, and there was a lot of pressure to be out on the really good days because otherwise you'd miss out on, you know, your points in the XC League. Nowadays, I just put in X Contest as a sort of record. Yeah, like your log. Yeah, it's like a logbook. So, you know, that is, that was a bit of a breakthrough, really.

And that sort of coincided with, you know, really. I joined the Volbib, more sort of adventurous flying.

To me, it's the, yeah, I mean, we've talked about this quite a bit. The kilometer crunching approach isn't very sustainable, is it? I mean, you really have to. Yeah. I mean, I was way into that for a while. And I still do. I mean, we have this, we have the U.S. Contest, you know, here. They just started that the last few years. And, you know, this summer, I put a lot of energy into it. Until, you know, until Kiwi disappeared. And that kind of took over for us for a while. But, you know, and that was really fun. Because it forced me to go out and fly things that I hadn't thought about. That was really neat. But as a lifestyle of the sport, I don't dig it.

It just doesn't work. It just puts me into shitty air. And I don't need to do that. I mean, you know, I try to reserve my shitty air for the X-Alps. But there's only so much psychological trauma we can handle, you know. Or at least that's how I'm feeling about things these days.

I mean, the UK XC League is a great resource of, you know, fly information and everything. And, you know, it's fun to see how you're doing comparing yourself to others. But when you're, I think my best ever place in the league was, I don't know, I can't remember, eighth or ninth a few years ago. But I know that I'm never going to be able to do that. I'm never going to get to the top. I just don't have the time. And then when you've got like a family christening or a wedding or, you know, even just kids' birthday parties or something like that, you go to and it's a beautiful day and you can't go flying. It's just sort of, you know, all your mates are doing 100Ks and everything. It just puts, it just makes you unhappy.

And, you know, why go there? If you're not doing the league, you know, all that pressure is lifted off you. You just... You're not missing out on your Tesco points, you know, points in the league. It's just... You just fly for the fun of it. And that's how it should be. So the other thing I wanted to mention was... Well, let me just tell this story. It's back in 2012. I can't believe it's so long ago. April 2012. And the forecast down in the south of England was absolutely rubbish. The forecast up in the Highlands. of Scotland was five star. So there was about a dozen of us from the south. We all headed up there in a few cars.

And we got up to... We came the night before and then we got to White Corries, which is a site near Glencoe, on the Saturday morning. And it was just beautiful conditions. I did a nice little triangle out in front first before I sort of worked out what the day was doing. And then I started... I had this plan to fly from White Corries up to Fort William. That's pushing into wind. Then trying to get on to basically Ben Nevis and then fly back to White Corries. And that would have been a really nice little house in return. It didn't quite work like that. I managed to push all the way through into wind up to Fort William. And I just couldn't...

Didn't have enough height to get on to the sort of... What's it called? Annetmore Range. So I decided to head back. And I got a nice climb out from Fort William. The wind was pushing me southwest.

And I was running alongside Loch Linney, which Fort William is at the northernmost end of. And the sky to the west, i.e. to my right as I was flying sort of southwest, was beautiful. And the mountains were beautiful. And it just looked... Epic. The sky to my east, where I'd come from, was getting a bit overdeveloped and spread out. And I think there were a few spots of rain.

And I had to... I was in... I was such in two minds. Should I just carry on with this thermal that was drifting me over Loch Linney? It was about a kilometre crossing of the loch. And then I'd hit the mountains on the other side. But I... I was just full of doubt. How am I going to get back from there if I cross over the loch?

I could really... I could see there was a little ferry at Corran. And, you know, but I just put all these doubts into my mind. And there was another thing. I'd arranged dinner at this place where we were... We were due to stay that night. And there were other people with me, you know, staying there.

And in the end, I went... I went out and landed on the eastern side of Loch Linney. But I fell out of the thermal, of course, because I couldn't keep with it. And to this day, I regret not just going with my gut and really, you know, going to the good sky on the other side of the loch. You know, worse that would have happened, I would have had a bit of a walkout. I could have flown another 50 or 60 kilometres and landed on the Isle of Mull. And then that would have been a real adventure, you know, having to get a ferry. And, you know, it would have been a story to dine out on for the rest of time. But I wimped out. So the point of that story is really to just go for it.

You know, if you get a chance like that, it doesn't matter what... If you end up having an epic retrieve, that's all part of the fun. Don't wimp out. And for sure, with my lightweight gear that I've got now, I'd absolutely definitely do that. Back, you know, 2012, I was on much heavier gear. So, yeah, I guess that was, you know, weighing on my mind as well as it would have been weighing on my back. But yeah, that's all I wanted to say, really.

Mmm. Oh, yeah. And that sees the day. I mean, there are those times, isn't it, where it's just totally appropriate to go for it. Well, I hope you get another opportunity like that. That's... I'm visualizing it. I mean, I haven't flown anywhere, you just said, but I'm visualizing, you know, flying over the locks and that would have been a crusher. But, well, hopefully you'll get another chance. It's an

awesome place to fly. Yeah, I'm dying for another trip up to Scotland. You know, when the weather's good up in the highlands of Scotland, it is unbeatable as a place to fly. You know, you often get six, 7,000 foot cloud base, which, you know, when the mountains are only 3,000 foot max, you know, you've got huge height over the terrain. And it is just so wild. It's wild and spectacular. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah,

brilliant. I had some of the best flying, some of the more memorable flying I've ever had. It certainly was, you know, nothing challenging and nothing radical by any means. But, you know, we spent almost a complete summer sailing the Outer Hebrides and Orkney Islands back in 2010, I guess it was. Yeah, no, late summer of 2011. And you could fly anywhere. Anywhere out in the Hebrides. It was unbelievable. You know, you just, you'd anchor in these cool little bays and ride out these storms. And then, you know, there's no trees or anything. You could just, no matter what direction the wind was, you could hike up, you know, 10 minutes and then soar. It was all soaring. I never did any XC.

But I'm sure you could. That'd be pretty neat, you know, to fly from like the northern tip down to Barra or something. But just, I mean, just the, it was just beyond spectacular. All the time. I actually took my mom for a tandem there. She was on the boat for a couple of weeks and she still talks about it as the best day of her life. It was just, it's just awesome.

I can imagine. Yeah, wicked. Yeah, yeah, it is stunning. Well, next year, hopefully.

Oh, man, that would have been good to go.

Oh, yeah. Because it was only last year or, no, the year before, 2019, that the first people actually flew to Mull.

Right. And I reckon I

could have done it. I'd just gone for it. Yeah. Oh, man. Oh,

we've all, we've all had plenty of those. It doesn't

matter. It was still a, it was a great, it was a great flight, whatever. Yeah,

of course.

And I had a, we were staying at the, there's a, there's an old, well, a railway line called the West Highlands, West Highland Line, I suppose it is. And there's, we, a few of us stayed at this old railway station that was a B &B and they cooked for us there. Yeah. And whilst we were there, this, this. Yeah. Pullman, was it? No, the, the Orange Express, you know, carriages rolled into the station. It was just a, it was a wonderful evening there. We had a superb meal.

But, you know.

Even so.

Yeah, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. A great place to end. Tim, that was, that was terrific. It's fun to talk to you after all these years. I mean, we've been in touch since then, but I can't wait to see what you do next. I was actually over in Europe. I was in Europe after the race in 2019 and watching your expedition very keenly because it looked like a blast and it's, it is a really, it's a great finger of our sport that is that, and that you can walk out on and really enjoy in a lot of different ways. So I think this will be inspiring for, for those thinking about doing it, but thanks for sharing your advice. We'll put up your, your kit list on the, in the show notes and anything else you want to share there. And also I'll, I'll provide you with some of the links. I'll provide a link to your great videos and, but thanks Tim.

I appreciate it.

Thanks very much, Gavin. It's been a pleasure talking to you and thanks for, you know, your contribution to the sport through the, you know, CloudBase Mayhem. It's a fantastic resource and I look forward to each of the episodes when they, when they come out. So yeah, cheers. Thanks very much.

That was great. Thanks Tim. I appreciate it. Talk soon.

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Bye.

Bye. Bye.