Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloudbase Mayhem. I sat down with Ferdie Van Shelven to record this a couple of weeks ago. I'm now recording this opener a day before the U.S. election, so I have no idea what's going to transpire there. there, but hopefully we will all get through this chaos and life will go on. But, uh, this, this episode is all love and light; has nothing to do with politics, of course. And I hope you enjoy it. Ferdy van Shelven for name, and Shelvin's from the Netherlands. He's, uh, until pretty recently lived in the flats, and which is amazing to watch him compete in the XLC. He's competed four times. His first was in 2011.
He's never done worse than seventh. Squeaked me out, beat me, and it just got me in the final day of the 2015 race. And then he did not compete last time in the 2019 race. He was hanging out with Tom Dodorolono and some of his other friends and wanted to just see what it was like to sit on the sidelines a bit. Decided he couldn't do that again, and he's back for his fifth in this one in the 2021 race. So this episode is mostly about the X-Alps, but also about how he's been able to pull off such extraordinary moves and do so well being from the flats. You see, he's grown up in the Netherlands, and now he lives in Sion and makes snow in Verbier in the mountains of Switzerland.
So he's in a much better position to train and fly in the mountains. And so I'm sure he'll be even a sharper weapon coming into this one. But always a fan favorite, takes incredible lines, has an awesome attitude. His supporter is his wife, Nicole, and they just had a little baby. He's got a five-month-old at home now, and so we talked a lot about risk and how that's changed his approach, and yeah, just how he, how he, how much he loves the X-Alps. And as we dive into the 10th edition of the X-Alps, I thought it'd be fun to have him on the show, so had a lot of fun with this one. It was always great to sit down and and chat with Ferdy. I love this dude.
We had a chance to train together quite a bit before the 2017 race, and uh, awesome guy, so enjoy pretty
So cool to have you on the show, man. I appreciate your patience and putting this all together, and I didn't, I didn't know that you lived in Sion. Now you're, uh, you're a Swiss resident. What's it like being in the vales, yeah?
It's changing, it changed a lot compared to Belgium where I used to live before. Like, uh, yeah, it's great to be in the mountains and and be able to to train and and fly and all do all the things that you can do in the mountains. It's, uh, yeah, it's a big change and it's, yeah, I like it. I
Understand, you're working on the snow guns? Your snow making, was that something you, you learned in Switzerland, or did this is something you brought over from, from Belgium, Netherlands, and that area? Yeah,
Of course, it's not really into Belgium stands to try to make snow and everything, but
They make ice rinks, I guess.
Well, there are a few like tiny ski slopes, but when I was a kid, I was really fascinated by snow. And so, when I was younger, I was trying to make all these snow guns in my garden, then try to make snow in the garden, and then, and around, I don't know, when I was 18 or something, I went to France and then worked there one season in the skiing area, and I really liked it. But then I had to work—well, I didn't have to, but my family had a business in Belgium and some people left, and then they needed—well, they didn't need me, but I felt like I was needed, and And then I decided to move back to Belgium and work for them a few years.
And then when I came back to Switzerland, I thought, yeah, maybe it's a nice job. You're always outside. And I thought, yeah, why not try this? And so now I'm, how do you say, the, how do you call this? The chef for the guy who runs the snow cannon. The manager. The manager, yeah. So it's nice. it's in three years time it's it's pretty cool yeah
I know that you know, historically, you've been at the sport of paragliding and flying for 25 years or something, is that right? You've been at this thing, you've been at it a long time, but right, you got into this when you're really young, right? Yeah,
When I was, yeah, around 10, I think, 10 or 12, yeah, my father was, well, started to paragliding because he always dreamed of it. And then they had this outdoor sports company, and then they did like, uh, yeah, beginner courses for paragliding just to get a sense of what paragliding was. And then, uh, I always said, "Can I go with?" And, um, yeah, and then, uh, I would, you know, just fly on the flat, on the flat part. And then my father would hope me that I wouldn't fly off too far. And then, and then I was, when I was 12 or so, I think, I really started, um, flying from, uh, in the Alps, and then back in Belgium from some small hills and everything.
Yeah, yeah.
How did you get the... how did you get the mountain experience that you brought into your first X-Alps and into 2011? Were you at that point, were you a pretty experienced mountain pilot, or were you just kind, kind of winging it?
Yeah, it's really weird, actually. When you live in the mountains, now you think like, how the hell did I? How the hell did I do it? You know, because like all these crazy winds you get like phone and everything you don't. Well, you've heard about it when you live in Belgium, but you don't really understand how it works and everything. And when you live here, like people are actually always talking about, is there a north phone or south phone? And and and they're always busy with this. And then when I used to go to the Alps, I would just look on like some standard weather forecast and then look if there was any wind or something, and then it looks fine, and then I was just offline and usually it worked pretty well.
I mean, sometimes you you make these crazy ideas about this phone wind and everything and then. And of course, at a certain point, it can be quite tricky and dangerous. But I remember once during one X-Alps, there was quite a lot of north wind, but I flew like 50 k's. It was a bit turbulent, but I was on the lee side of the mountain. And then coming out of the valley towards Lake Como, I think it was all of a sudden like this wind coming. down from Sang Moritz hit this this valley, and then I was all of a sudden, I was turning more to the right, crossing the valley, and all of a sudden I was flying backwards, and I thought, "What's going on here?" And then looking down, and I saw the corn fields like going, they were almost flat, you know, because there was so much wind down at the bottom, like, oh.
So then I turned around and flew back a little bit from the valley I was coming from, because I thought, "Yeah, well, there it was, was fine, so it should be fine." And then at the end, I landed flying a bit backwards, but it was still manageable. And then some local pilots from Italy, they came and I said, "Are you crazy? Why are you flying with these conditions? There is 80 kilometers an hour wind in this valley and" and uh yeah, but it was just because I didn't, I didn't know actually, but I still flew 50k so So, and I landed.
Yeah, that's a win in the X-Alps. That's a good day.
And then it was funny because Thomas, he was flying also.
Also from Belgium, he didn't really knew either. But he was flying on the other side, like on the north side.
And actually that day we flew quite a bit. And then a bit later on, we found each other again. And we gained quite a few places that day because like all the other guys didn't fly because it was, yeah, phone and you were not supposed to fly, but actually it was fine. So, yeah, sometimes it can help you and sometimes it's nice also not to know everything and just feel or look at the sky and do whatever you think is good or something like this, I think.
Yeah. And this is, I mean, this is definitely some of the things I really want to talk to you about probably just a little bit later. Cause I, I, you seem to have a really good feel for following your instincts. Maybe, I don't know if you'd frame it as kind of flow kind of entering flow channel, but you've, you know, you clearly have a real gift for flying, but for, for this race as well. well, you know, your, your first race was 2011. You've competed four times. This is, this will be your fifth. You're, you've been top seven and in every race you snuck me in the 2015 race, which I'll never forgive you for. You put a good move on me that second to last day. And I was actually, I don't know if you and I ever talked about that, but it was, you know, I was sitting under this chairlift, basically contemplating that I'd just nearly died and I'd gotten stuck in really bad Valley winds and didn't really recognize that I was in the Lee.
And, and, uh, and I just, the last report I'd gotten was that you and Nick were, were grounded and you were way behind me and I didn't really have to worry about you. And then my team didn't have internet and that whole Vars area and whenever that another town South there is. And, uh, And you had crossed the valley quite—it made a quite sexy move—and crossed the valley to the better side, and the west-facing side, and just flown right over my head. So I, I would, I didn't know any of that. I was just sitting on the ground, and when I found out, I was so furious. I just thought, "Oh, gotta catch him, I've got to catch him." So I had a really nice flight that evening, and then I ran all night trying to catch you, and I, I just imagined that I could, but you're also very, very fast on the ground, and I never even got close.
I
Remember, they told me already then, but uh, yeah, but it's also, I mean, I always wonder why I end up so... well, because of course I do train a bit and and everything, but uh, it's always about decisions, you know? And like that day, I thought I was flying on that same side as you; I was flying on these east faces. And then all of a sudden, I thought, yeah, well, you know, and there was this wind coming from Brianson and then there is this sailplane flying on these west faces there. And then I thought at a certain stage, well, and it was, I don't know, around one o'clock or something, then at a certain stage I should cross to the west faces and also because of this valley wind.
And then when I crossed to the west face, it was like super windy also at this side. And there was, yeah, like I got stuck there and then like I couldn't get around the corner on a mountain because the wind was going, yeah, not really in the right direction. And so then I walked just, I don't know, maybe 500 meters to get across a ridge. And then I was on the other side and it was like super windy. I thought if I wasn't in the race, I wouldn't have took off. But then I thought, well, everybody has seen this video of Griegel where he takes off and then gets shot in the air. And then I thought, well, probably it's going to happen the same and then afterwards I'll be fine.
So then I tried and then, yeah, it was a bit the same. Like I took off there and then I got up, I think, 1,500 meters without making one turn or not going backwards or forwards. And then just I went up like this 1,500 meters, and then all of a sudden there was less wind on the top, and then I could, yeah, I started flying again forward. So, yeah, actually it was quite easy, but a bit scary at the same time. And I got the same thing. So, the first, you have this valley coming from Bruyant, and then afterwards there's this other valley from the Uber River, and there I got exactly the same thing. Like, I was flying, I was super high, I don't know what the the ceiling was that day, but I think 4,000 meters or something, and I got in the lee side of this mountain in front of me.
I was full bar pushing, and I, I think I was, I only had one K to go, and I, I don't know, maybe a thousand meters above this mountain, and then I just went down minus 10 meters a second until I just flew over this, this top, but maybe two, three hundred meters above it. I thought, if I don't make it, I end up in one of those crazy valleys in the back there, and I really didn't want to. So I was really pushing, pushing, pushing, and then I hit the the wind in front of the mountain again, and then the same thing, I went up again 1,500 meters straight up, and then afterwards, woods, it was fine again. And then I, I was flying towards, uh, yeah, call the fives and everything, and there, there was a bit better, but it was, yeah, a crazy flight.
And then I remember at the end, like, having all this wind, there was this valley going towards the sea, and then I thought, there's probably gonna be as much wind as this valley, so I don't want to land at the bottom, and
Sola, the Asola Valley. Yeah, that... that is in training. That night when I landed, uh, chasing you, it was very mellow. But holy cow, in training down there, I had some days that were terrifying. That canyon just funnels all that wind off the Mediterranean. It's just really windy. That's
What I thought, yeah, but then like my supporters were way in the back because we flew so much that day, so I couldn't ask them if there was any wind in the valley, so I landed like really stupid in one of those side valleys instead of landing on top of a mountain or something, but I thought, okay, well I'm pretty close to the to the end now and I'll just land somewhere in the side valley and then I'll walk all night and then I'll be in Monaco tomorrow, but when I walked back towards the main valley there was like zero wind and I could have flown maybe 20 k's further, I don't know like if I would have flown straight, but then I just landed in one of the side valleys just to prevent myself, you know I was already been so scared by all this wind in these valleys, so then I was, yeah, just hiking and then there were two following me all night and yeah it was pretty funny and then I remember like falling asleep while walking towards, uh, yeah, the beginning of the day like when the the light just came up I was really falling asleep while walking and then Nicole was my My wife was telling me, I don't know how you do it.
I'm falling asleep all the time. And you just keep walking.
You know that at some point that night, about five o'clock in the morning, I came up to you on the side of the road and I started talking to you. I was completely hallucinating. I mean, you were still 12K ahead of me or something, but I was completely asleep. I was walking just like the dead. It was like I was a dead person and I kind of opened my eyes or maybe they were open. I don't, you know, but you were, you were sitting on this bridge and I, I walked up and I was like, Freddie, do you want to come in? And I just, you, you didn't exist.
I was completely hallucinating at that point. I was out of my mind.
Actually, I saw you and then I told you, just, just get some rest, man. And then I get in front of you.
Oh, that was, I actually had a really proper kind of breakdown. The next, the next day we got some beta from a friend in Australia that said, Hey, somebody has flown this little hill, you know, that, that, you know, and maybe you could, you were, you were nearly in pay at that point, but you know, maybe you could climb up this and, and squeak it in there. and I was so wrecked, and we we'd climb, and you know, it was, it was like 100 degrees that day. It was torture. I hate Monaco, and I, uh, I climbed up this thing, and it was like three hours for it wasn't a very big climb, but I was just smoked at that point and my feet were mangled and I got up to this launch and it was kind of windy from the sea, like the sea breeze was just starting to of set in, but you could see, all you had to do was, and that you know, you got that really tight airspace there, but you could see all you had to do was go back, like, go away from pay and and follow the terrain back, and it was kind of a U mountain, and it would have brought me over onto the ridge and Pay.
And then, you know, there was clouds and it was real obvious what you would do, but you, I would have had to fly away from Pay to do it, and I couldn't force my... I could just... couldn't do it. I was like, "There's no way." So instead, I did the dumb thing and I just pressed into the wind towards the ocean and flew. I think I flew like five kilometers you know, so I, so I climbed this big mountain for nothing, and then flew five kilometers, and I landed in this kind of like sewer river. It was really filthy and really dirty, and and uh, and then realized, you know, when I brought it up on my phone, I still had, you know, by the Red Bull tracking it was like three kilometers, but I had to walk like 14 kilometers, whatever it was, you know, because it's up this windy road and tons of vertical gain, I had to go way up, and I looked at that and I just, in my mind, I thought, I can't, it's not possible, I just can't do it.
So Bruce pulled up and I just said, "Bruce, I, I can't make it," and he said oh, so what are you gonna fucking do? You're gonna, you're gonna quit the X-Alps when you're 14 kilometers away? He's like, he basically kicked me out of the car. He said, "Said get going, you wimp," but you just, uh, it's, it's crazy the place that that that race puts you in mentally is is really something else, yeah.
No, no, for sure, but it's true that this last bit, yeah. It's, it's terrible, like all these windy roads and nothing goes to, yeah, nothing goes straight. And then there's all these sparkly bushes everywhere, which really, yeah, it's terrible, yeah.
We got, we got shredded going through that. There's a, there's a section where everybody else went to, but we, I don't know if we lost the trail or it's just like that, but Ben just got shredded. It was, it was, you know, just he was kind of just grabbing these vines and yanking them out of the way. It's, yeah, it's, it's torture back there. Well, what was it like to sit out 2019? You were, you're with Tom that first day, I got to chat with you a little bit in the car as it was raining and we were all walking at that point. Um, but about, you know, one of the reasons I signed back up this year was, I just thought, "God, it'd be torture to watch." Was it hard? Or was it, was it kind of fun to take a break? No.
It was actually quite, yeah, it was fun to see it from another point of view because you're, when you're, when you're in... well, of course I always see it as a big deal, like it's a, it's a big thing to do this race, but when you're in it, like, it doesn't matter. Well, when you, when your alarm sets off at three o'clock in the morning or whatever, you're like, "There we go again." But then you wake up and then you start walking, or you try to in the beginning, and then after a few steps your muscles, how do you say, like, get loose a bit, and then, and then all of a sudden you're walking again, and then the day starts, and then until 11, and then, yeah, you go to sleep again, and, and then you just keep doing that for two weeks, and then you're, if you're lucky, you're in Monaco.
But like, when you see it from, from like, when you can take the rest, you know, when you're not in the race, like, uh, yeah, you hike up a mountain and then you fly a bit, and then you think, "Yeah, well, it's fine for today, you know, I've done enough." And, but, but then, and then I was with Thomas and he said, "Okay, just come with me, we'll hike up this mountain again, and then we'll fly from there." Okay, fine. And then you do one more, and then you see six o'clock already. For me, it's fine now, you know, and then they still have to hike, so you
felt a lot of sympathy, I guess. Yeah,
You really think, wow, this is just crazy, but you're so much, yeah, into the adrenaline of the race that you don't really notice the performance that you're achieving. Like, it's, uh, it's crazy when you see it from the outside. You really think it's crazy what, what you guys are doing, actually? You don't. Well, I don't notice it when I'm in the race, anyway. I really, yeah, really saw that from, from, from the outside, like this. But it's really something special. It's quite amazing.
did you miss it?
Yeah, well, of course, at some point I was doing some flights, and sometimes I, I did some stupid things, you know? Even when I was just following the race, I thought, luckily I'm not in the race now, otherwise I would have been pissed or whatever, but
Yeah, of course I missed it, but it's different, you know, when you're not really in the race, you make other decisions. Yeah, it's just not the same. And of course, yeah, I missed it; otherwise, I wouldn't have done it again this year. But yeah, you know the feeling, like every time when you finish this race, you think, "I'll never do it again," and then after a year, you suddenly think, "Yeah, it's quite nice, let's do it again." What's the
hardest thing for you when it comes to the race if you take the whole thing the the training from the very beginning to the very end what's What's the hardest part?
I think the week before the race.
Just the anticipation or the nerves?
No, because it just takes so much time. Oh, God, yeah. God, it is awful. It's crazy. On the stump side and everything. I don't know, but it's also kind of nice. Well, it's nice, you know, like all the guys from the X-Alps, like almost all of them are competitive, but also really friendly with each other. So they, yeah, yeah, like we are chatting now. It's, uh, it's like that with every pilot, and that's a nice thing about the race. But, yeah, there isn't really a thing I hate. The only thing, when I finish the race and I'm really, well, my worst experience was in 2011. There, I was really... we hiked so much during this race, and then I think I was still young and just pushing my body to
to whatever my body could do. Like, my mind would just keep saying, "Okay, just keep going, keep going," but then it really took me like half a year, I think, to, yeah, to recuperate. Or how do you say this? Yeah,
recover recover
Yeah, uh, it really took me like so much time that I thought, "Boy, this can't be good for you," you know? But I lost, I don't know, I think 10, 10 kgs during this race.
whoa yeah
It was like, I didn't eat well, or uh, wasn't really prepared for everything, but it was crazy. Like, I think in the race we had three days where we hiked, oh well, like one day more than 100 kilometers and in two days around 95, or something. I think I walked 850 kilometers. That, oh, it was amazing. Yeah, do
You have any, if you historically do, you have any foot problems?
Foot problems?
Yeah, like blisters?
Not really, no. Like the last race I did in 2017, because it was so hot in Italy.
But yeah, there I got some problems. I got like tibia. I don't know how you
call it. Oh, yeah, shin splints.
Yeah, like I was really infected. And then one of my chilies was also really bad. at the end
ouch but
I think it was just because of the heat and, but uh, mainly I'm doing fine with that, only like during winter when I start ski touring and I always get some blisters on my heels. Once they are gone again and then I'm fine, but no, usually I'm quite okay with the blisters.
What? How has your approach changed between 2011 and then going into the 2021 race? I mean, obviously, obviously, you've got all the experience, but do you have different goals now than you did? And what were the goals?
Yes, I remember in 2011, my goal was to finish in the top 10 and to reach, well, my goal. I don't know if it was a goal. I kind of hoped that somehow it was possible because I was really thinking that I wasn't up for this thing or I would try. but I didn't really know, yeah, what to expect or anything. And then, so I remember I studied the course until Chamonix, like I thought if I read Chamonix I would already be really happy. And then I remembered, like, it was two days before the end of the race I was in Chamonix. And then I thought, "Shit, I haven't looked at the maps any further than this." And then I really didn't know where to go, so yeah.
Then I was kind of asking to John Chambers, "Where, where are we going now?" And he said, "I will go up here." So, uh, yeah, I just thought if I reach Germany I would be pretty cool. And then I ended up at the Col du Galibier on the, yeah, like the race finished over there because, because Krieger already reached Monaco two days earlier, I think. Yeah,
I think only he and Thoma got in that year, right? Was that the 2011 year?
Yeah, it could be, yeah.
Yeah. Col de Glibier is a nice place to end. That's beautiful.
Yeah, no, it was nice, yeah. So that was my first race. And then the next one, I thought, okay, let's do it a bit better, especially for the nutrition. Nutrition, I thought I should, uh, yeah, have some. Shouldn't lose so much weight during this race, and then, yeah, more proteins to recover. And more, uh, yeah, I think I only lost like three or four kilos during the 2013 one, so that was more acceptable, and
Has Nicole supported you in all of them?
Uh, no, no, like in 2013 she came, but towards when I reached France, uh, or no, a little bit earlier, like in, in Zermatt, I think she came, uh, but then I think you were already flying then in 2013, no.
I didn't. My first was 15, no.
So she now that year, like 2013, I flew from like the whole valleys, actually. So I flew from, uh, Lufthansa all the way to Zermatt, and then I did the same thing going to this back-back country to Chamonix. I
remember that really distinctly. On, I was watching that race really closely. You made some wicked moves through there. You were, you were really fun to watch that year. That was, that was an yn 2011, but you, you had some, some really cool lines, yeah.
Well, that was like a bit of luck as well, you know? I reached, I reached the um, the amount, and then I, and then I saw the cloud base was really high, and then I saw Manuel Nubo, I think. I don't know if it was that year of the year or the year later, but he was catching up on me, and then no, I think it wasn't that year, yeah, because his first year
Was, was, was my first year too. It was 2015, yeah.
Yeah, so that was that the next time. But so the first, I was with Alan Duragati, I think, and then like we both kind of saw it would be the best, the best way to go. And then, yeah, so we picked that line and it was really nice because, you at the end, it's way shorter than the other one. So, so yeah, and then I ended up in Chamonix that night, and then I saw Nicole from Chamonix and she followed us to Monaco, and then in 2005, so the next race, 2015, yeah, she also followed me a bit, I think, there, yeah. And then in 2017, she was my supporter, and now she will do it again.
You've got to tell me about that. What's that like? I just can't. I love my wife to death, but I can't imagine doing a race with her.
Yeah, well, I'm quite lucky. Like Nicole, she really likes the whole race and everything, And she likes all the, well, like also all the the other pilots that are in the race and all the social or the social network around it and yeah, and she's, yeah, I don't know, like the the first races I was a bit scared, you know, to because then, yeah, our relationship was quite young and and, uh, and I was also with a supporter which, uh, had a quite a strong, how to say, character and I didn't think they would match with Nicole's character, you know, like it would be difficult during the race, yeah, like she always told me, "I want to go with you and and support you and everything." So like in 2017, I was still a bit before the race, I thought, yeah, I'm not sure if it's gonna work, you know, because well, like you're saying, it's not always easy when you're with your wife or, but then at the end it worked really well, like, uh, yeah, like everybody had his task and then
not the end, it went, yeah, we didn't really fight during the race or whatever, so it was—that was pretty cool. And it, of course, it's quite nice that the, yeah, the person who loves you most follows you during the race and supports you, and at the end, there was a great experience. And so, so now we've got a kid. He's now five months old.
Oh, congratulations. I didn't know that.
Yeah. And so it's going to be more challenging this year to prepare for the race as well.
That's time consuming. So will he come with you guys? I guess so. Or do you have grandparents or something?
Yeah, the grandparents will. Okay. luckily took care of him and uh yeah
And I think Tom's got one coming right before the race, his second
Yeah, we were telling like, uh, what was it? Yeah, before we were, we got the news that we were selected. I said, "Yeah, uh, I don't know why, man, they didn't select me, uh, for the XL." And he was, was like, "No, why? I don't understand." And then I said, "Oh, yeah, I don't know. They, yeah, they just said they wouldn't select me this year. There was someone else that they took and whatever." And he was like, "I'm really sorry about you. It's really weird that they did that." And then at the end I said, "No, no, it's a joke, you know?" Yeah.
There's, there's no, there's no way you're not getting that you've been, you've been incredibly consistently consistent and and fun to watch. Your big crowd favorite. Um, yeah, I wanted to ask you about 2017 because it, I mean, you, you know, you've been top seven every time. It's not like, in a way, you had a breakthrough, but it seemed from the outside. I didn't have a very good race in 2017. I had made a really bad move early on that really cost me. But the, it seemed like you kind of had a breakthrough in 2017. You just had a really solid race all the way through, even at the end. I mean, you know, you don't, again, it was one of those hard weather races and only two people got in, but you were right there and, and you had some wicked competition and some very fast people on the ground, but those kind of, that the end, the end was, was a lot of walking and running and, you know, it was, the weather was brutal, but.
it
Yeah, I don't know. I think like, I don't really, I don't mind, uh, I don't, I don't mind walking really, like in the, I don't know, like sometimes it's a bit weird, but I always say to my supporters, try to convince me to fly, because just sometimes I think, well, I'm just, I'm just hiking now and I'm, I'm just cruising along and I'm going forward. I don't take any risks.
At the end of the day, I can do that for 80 kilometers. Well, I've done 80 kilometers, but I don't mind the walking part. So if it gets difficult, then I don't really care. What I do mind is flying into really shitty conditions. So when I, yeah, when I get tossed around and whatever, like flying in the lee all the time, and I can manage that for, for a while, but then after a while, I think it's really worth it. And then I'd rather be safe than sorry, if you know what I mean, so
Yeah, it's not really, uh, an answer to your question, I guess, but
yeah
I don't know, I always wonder why I'm so consistent. Like, I really hope this year I'm going to do fine again, you know? Because it's also a bit of luck. I mean, sometimes you, yeah, you have to be well positioned in the beginning, don't miss any good flying days, and if you do one big mistake on a good day, especially now, the level is quite high. Yeah, you're, you're like all the way in the back as soon as you make a mistake. So I don't know how I do it, but it's really, it keeps, I keep amazing myself. Like, I was four in 2017 and towards the end, like everybody, like all of a sudden, got like
I remember one day I was really
I was going from Makugnaga, I don't know if you know, yeah, nowhere sure to
What was the turn point? The other side of Sermat, the Italian side? Yeah.
the Courmayeur yeah
And on that day, they expected, I think, west wind, I don't know, 40 kilometers an hour, and I was really thinking, "No way, I'm gonna, you know, no way I'm gonna fly. I don't want to die, and I don't want to risk it flying every time into the lee of these, yeah, huge ridges and everything." So I thought, okay, well, I was, no, I was crying actually at the beginning of the day. I was telling, "How the hell am I gonna do this?" It was like four times, yeah, 1500 to 2000 meters.
ascension like, and then the same going down because it's like all these valleys you have to cross
hiking, and then I thought, how the hell, well, I can't do that, you know, I can't do 8,000 meters of vertical climbing one day, it's impossible. And then at the end, I just, well, the first ascension I had to hike, and then I could fly the first one because there wasn't any wind yet, and then the next one, it was starting to get windier, and then I saw I hiked back down and and hike back up at the end of the day, you know, 5,000 or 6,000 meters, big day. And then, yeah, but I just walked, and then all the other guys, they, they were flying, and I thought, okay, now they're all gonna disappear, you know, and and but at the end, like Manuel Nubo, he was really tired and got sick and then stayed somewhere on the mountain, and I don't know what happened there, but But,
yeah, they made some mistakes or whatever, I don't know. And then I catched up with the other guys in front. And then some guys flew into the airspace because it was quite complicated there. So, all of a sudden, like two or three guys kind of disappeared in front of me. And then one day before the last day, I decided to try to fly because I thought, yeah, I don't want to hike in these 40 degrees flats there in Italy. And then it was flying quite well. And I still did a stupid mistake because one
time I was flying in the east face in the afternoon and it was going up, but not so much. So at the end, I landed, and then I lost, I think, two hours hiking over this mountain, and if I just waited a bit more, I think I should, I could have made it, you know? It's just a bit more, yeah. Piece of, or how do you say, a bit more? Um, I was just tired, you know? So at the end, I thought, just land and then hike back up. But otherwise, I think I could have reached Paul Grischelbauer or be at the same level. I had one more mountain to cross, and then I would be, and then I would be at this level, and then it would have been funny because then, uh, yeah, it would have been another race again against him.
But yeah, then I flew back out in the flats, and then I hit this airspace, and I started to, to walk from there, and that was just a few k's in front of
Simon Oberaner and then I called him the last day I said Simon, I don't know, I was 10km behind me I think what shall we do? I can wait for you, and then we just drink a beer here, and then we call it a day, and then we finish the race like that. And for me, it's fine. And then he said he didn't really answer me; he said, I don't know
So then we we hung up on the phone and I was like, "Shit, he's probably gonna run." So we were watching the live track all the time and at all at a certain point he started running and then I thought, "Yeah, well he's just gonna run 1k and then we'll stop again." And then he kept running and then he reached like 5k, he was 5k behind me and then I thought, "Oh shit, I have to to start running." So then we ran, I think, for for two or three hours at the end of the race just to keep that fourth place. It was like and then at the end, but I was joking, you know? When I saw him, I was, uh, trying to kill him, but just in a friendly way, like, "Why don't you do that to me?" It makes
Me makes me feel even more ridiculous, for I had the exact same situation, situation. Uh, I was way behind you guys at that point, but I was Michael Gerlach and, uh, and, uh, Rick Brazina from Canada and myself were coming into Bellinzona, and I pulled up live tracking. I was—we were—he, Michael, was on the other side, and he was behind us at that point, but Rick had flown and made a better move on me, and he was like 2k in front of me. So I, I knew if I landed in front of him, I had him, and I did. I landed like 2k in front of him, and I packed up, and I called. This was the night before, you know, so we still had quite a bit of race left. It was that night, and then the next day until 11-something, whatever, it ended, and I called him and I said, "Hey, please, can we just be gentlemen and, you know, either finish this together or, uh, you know, can we just walk?
I'll just stay in front of you, but we'll just walk. We don't have to make this a race." I mean, I mean, I'm in 14th and you're in 15th. They're like, it doesn't matter, you know? And he said, no, you know, I've had fun racing. Let's just race. And so I ran a marathon that night to stay in front of him. I would just stay in 2K in front of him the whole time. And then the next morning, you know, we both were lined up at 5 a.m., you know, because we'd already used our night pass. And so luckily we didn't have to do that. But then I ran another marathon the next morning and it was just like, ah, dude, please just stop. Just stop running.
So stupid. It's crazy. crazy, crazy race. Well, that was it, but that was a great result. And well, back to the goals thing, how do you, you know, from these four races you've had and in this kind of decade, I
Really thought, okay, let's train a bit more. And then I did some serious flying in spring, and and and being in the Alps really helped me also to get a bit more ready. Like every time I was coming from Belgium, I always came to the Alps and I thought I was a bit impressed. The first few days, a bit impressed by the mountains and the rock faces and everything. And actually living here in Switzerland, I mean, where we live, there are quite some high mountains and it's quite impressive sometimes. So this time, when I was in Austria, I was thinking, it's almost flatland.
I had it all the other way around, you know, there are nice green grassy hills and it's not so impressive, so that really helped, I mean, psychologically it was much nicer this way, and also physically I managed to train a bit more, so I was pretty good, I think, in 2017.
At least before the race, I thought I might have my chances.
So, that was good. And then this year, of course, I'll try to do my best again. But, yeah, as you know, with a small kid, it takes a lot of time. I'll try to train as well, but I don't want to overdo it as well. So, yeah, I'll just do my best and see what happens. and fly as much as I can and train as much as I can. It will be a bit less, I think, than in 2017. One
of the things that I've had a really hard time with in all the races, and I recognized this after the 2015 race, you and I made pretty similar moves that day eight, going into the Matterhorn and really jumped. But a lot of people, I went from eighth to seventh, and I know you made a big jump that day too, um, which really kind of saved, I mean, I, it wasn't looking like I was even going to get to Monaco, but that, that, that's been, that was a good day for me, but I've, I've had a lot of days where I really struggled with flying. What I know is the right way to do it because it's way off course line. And I start thinking about, well, what if I, what if I don't do it? What if I, you know, it's going to add 20 K of walking and that kind of thing.
You don't seem very I mean, again, I, I can't watch you in the race. I don't know, but I I'm more judging from the 2011 and 2013 races when I, when I got to watch you, but you seem to be able to, um, maybe not take it so seriously. you, you, you're able to make moves that in the air that that really work and not get bogged down into that, um, it's not, it's not fear of death but fear of blowing it. You seem to be very confident when you need to be confident, just i
just take the route whichever I think for me is best, you know. You know, like I'm not, I hate it. Or like at a certain stage it became, where did Chrigel go? Like all the race, like everybody was just following, where did Chrigel go? Where did he, but it really depends, you know, each day is different and it really depends on like when I'm in the air, I'm just looking, oh, well, this ridge looks better now because there is more sun or it looks, yeah, I don't know, like I'm just judging whatever looks best, you know, and I'm not really thinking about what if, because I just think this is the best option for me or whatever. It's my judgment that I think on that day is best, and then I'll just stick to looking forward and try to get to the next ridge and to this next mountain, whatever, and keep going forward.
That's actually what I really like about the X-Alps is that I did some other hang and fly races, which are really quick, and then you have to go to one point and then hike and then do this and and then go to another point and then maybe you can get some more points if you land in between somewhere, and it gets all really complicated sometimes, and then in the XL is just, yeah, basically going from Salzburg to Monaco. Well, you have to go through this several points, but But, yeah, it's going from one point to the next. And then I'll just, yeah, decide whatever is best. And I always made these judgments myself. Like, I didn't trust on my supporters.
Of course, I always asked them about the weather that day or whatever they think was best. But once I'm in the air, I'm just judging whatever I think is the best thing that day. So I can't say to my supporters, What the hell? Why did you send me there? It was really shitty, or whatever. I just make my own judgment, and that seems to work fine. Or, yeah, how
Much are you in contact with them when you're flying?
not not
yeah just
When I have my doubts on valley winds or whatever, like then I give them a call. And if I like, during the end, or yeah, I got some quite some surprises during some races where I really didn't like it down in the valley, so like just for to ask if it's safe to land or whatever. But yeah, during the flight I don't really doubt or whatever, and just make my decisions during the, yeah, how
Do you, how do you think about the risk side of it for you? I remember when we were all hanging out in Monaco after the 2015 race, you know, everybody kind of had a pretty special story. Uh, we, we were dealing with a lot of wind in 2015. That is a funny thing to me about the races, uh, how different each of them have been. I mean, in 2019, there was no wind. I never went anywhere that I couldn't launch, which was very, for me, unusual. It was a very different race, but um, so it didn't feel very risky at all. But I mean, we had the, the bad weather in the middle of the, the race, but it was, you know, it was very, everything was real obvious, you know? It wasn't, it wasn't like you were flying a lot of fern, or yeah.
Um, but as you've gotten older now, you have the five month old. I mean, this is a question I get on the podcast all the time, you know, how does your How do you approach that side of it for?
Sure, for sure. It changes like, uh, not only because the five months old, but also because of, uh, when you're young and people are telling you, "We'll see when you get older," you get more, more scared about things. And then you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever," you don't think it's gonna happen. But for sure, you, yeah, now I start thinking about all kind of things when I'm flying and, uh, not really when I'm in this, when I'm in the racing mode, a bit less than when I fly for myself, but because you have this adrenaline of the race and everything. So you, you, you, yeah, you push a bit more, but for sure I'm way not that relaxed as Chrigel, as for example, which, yeah, he doesn't seem to care about anything, but
No, for sure, this is changing. Like, sometimes I'm flying along here, this big rock face, and I think, "What the hell would happen if I get a collapse here and then pull my reserve?" And then I would be dangling somewhere on these rocks, and it wouldn't make a difference anyway. Well, and then I started thinking about this. But then the other day, I was flying in the Swiss—well, I didn't do the race, but I was flying along with the Swiss Open—and then we were just racing, you know, from one point to another. And then I was just really... I wasn't even looking at the rock faces, you know? We were flying about four or five thousand meters. It was really amazing weather, and, uh, yeah, huge glaciers and everything.
And, and you were just, yeah, kind of, "Oh, there's another guy here in front," and try to catch up, and so... Yeah, it's a bit of course the race helps you to eliminate a bit of those fears, but of course you, you get them more and more. You start to think more about life and everything, and but maybe it will help. I mean, in 2017, I thought, okay, I'm gonna do this race, but I'm never gonna take risks for myself. So whenever I thought it wouldn't be good for flying, I wouldn't fly. Like after those two rainy days at the start, everybody was flying off in this phone wind, and I guess I've seen some really bad things happening, and I thought, yeah, well, whatever happens.
I mean, if I lose 10 places today, it's better to break my leg or whatever. So that was fine. I was hiking down the valley and I saw all these guys flying over me and I was having belly aches just by watching them. So I thought, yeah, it's a good decision. And the same at Makuknaga. When I was walking there, air, I thought, okay, I have to do this 6,000 meters of vertical climb, but whatever, it's, uh, at least I'm, I'll stay positive this way and and not feel uncomfortable in the air. So yeah, yeah.
That, that second day of the, you know, I, I walked all night. That was, I pulled my night pass off right off the start, which ended up being a big mistake, but it was, uh, so I was down in that canyon when everybody but he started flying through, and I don't think I've ever seen anything that scary in paragliding. That was just terrifying. God. I mean, I even called, um, no, I forget. Yeah. Yeah. And not, not, not Christoph, but the, uh, Juergen, the safety director and just said, Hey, you better get the helicopter in here. This isn't going to end well. And you know, Benoit crashed, but he didn't get hurt. And, but then, man, God, that was ugly. it was just really scary yeah
well, I'm telling you how, yeah.
That was the end of his race, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, crazy. I'm interested. Does Nicole get nervous about that kind of stuff? Does she see and does she? I don't know, because I have this kind of agreement with my team that Revis, who does all my weather, it was Bruce in your days, yeah. He's no longer with us, unfortunately, but But, you know, he, he, he, they both know kind of what my limits are really well. So if they, you know, if they, they figure it safe, they'll, they'll put me, they'll, you know, okay, here's your next launch. But they don't really give me a lot of details because they know I don't want them. You know, I'll just be thinking about it all the way up to launch. So they kind of know what to give me and what to hold back.
Are you kind of calling all those shots or is, is, do you guys have an agreement along those kinds of lines?
Yeah, no, it's there was this thing I was telling you before, like I, uh, like all my supporters I got, they, they're great in supporting me, but they're not the best pilots or whatever, so they don't really know, yeah, what whatever takeoff would be the best or so. That like all these things are basically, well, sometimes they see on the map, maybe you could go there or whatever, but then I say, "Yeah, maybe, but I prefer to go there," so I make all these judgments myself, uh, so that Nicole doesn't really have to worry about that. And Nicole hasn't really worried about me either, because I don't know, somehow I think she trusts the decisions I'm taking and to be the good decisions.
And then now she's really cool with that. I mean, she doesn't go like, "Oh, you're not gonna die today," or whatever. She, she's always really down to earth or
That's cool. Well, it's encouraging for me to hear, as I think I've got about 12 years on you. I'll be 49 in this next; I'm 48 now. But it's, it's good for me to hear that because you've been flying longer than I have, and that you, you know, you have all those same reserve what have I collapsed because I, I get a lot of that and, and more and more, I used to be much more able to handle risk and, you know, thought I was more, uh, invincible of course than I do now, but it is strange what the race does to your mind. As I I've, I've often felt, I usually try to go over and do a little bit of training before and pretty much every year, there's been some days that are just really pretty pretty sketchy flying and, and they scare me to death as they should.
You know, they're not really recreational flying days, but that same, if I had that same day in the race, it wouldn't be scary at all. It's weird. You get in the strange. And I also don't think they're actually even that risky either. Cause you're, you're, you're just really dialed in. And I I've, I've, I've had this theory lately that I, I'm, I wonder if our brains can only really handle so much psychological trauma, and I think flying is often pretty traumatic, and you know, to, but if you can get your mind to that next level, it really is just an attitude. Is it isn't it? It's just a different approach that, for me at least, the three races I've been in, you get in that your brain goes to that point at the start out of the race, and it kind of stays there for 12 days.
It just kind of stays locked in where you just, you kind of have it
No, no, for sure. Yeah, like always, the difference in 2017 towards the other races, like the other race, I always felt like the last three or four days I would really be into, how do you say, into my element, or I wouldn't be scared anymore, or I just, yeah, felt comfortable flying like a good pilot would do. Uh, yeah, like Grigo flies all the time or whatever, or I mean, those guys are flying so much that it's just second nature, I think. And but, but I had this in 2017. I was, I flew quite a lot in spring, and then I was really already the first days of the race, I was already, you know, and then I wasn't scared, or I just felt, okay, let's fly, and I wasn't worrying at all about any dangers or whatever.
So, yeah. That, that makes a quite a big difference, I think, to be mentally strong.
Yeah, yeah, so Fruity, um, you and I did some training together before the, I guess that was a 26, yeah, before the 2017 race, we had a really cool flight from Slovenia, from, from, uh, tree glove up back into Austria and, but I, I think you, as you probably know, you know Chrigel doesn't do any of that. He doesn't, he doesn't go scout the course and beforehand. I mean, I think he scouts it with Google Earth and, of course, he's Chrigel. I mean, he's flown all over the Alps, there's probably not that many areas that he doesn't know. But, um, I was, I was pretty curious to find out in 2015 that he doesn't, you know, before the race, he pretty much just stays at home, keeps training at home, and doesn't go scout areas.
What's your viewpoint on that now, after doing it four times, and what will you do this year, I
understand um because you you know you you like for like we for example we did this flight and it worked out this this way on that day but if you're there on On another day, with a bit different weather, you might take that same decision because you thought, oh, that worked, but it might not be the best decision for that day. What's important for him is that he takes the good decision on a good day. If you actually don't really know where you're going, you just make your decisions on whatever you judge by the surroundings, by the birds you see, by the, I don't know, the clouds, the the thermals, whatever, and I think it's, uh, it's
Always good. It's, it's, it's almost always bad when locals come and tell you how you should fly, because they always say, "Oh no, you cannot go there because it never works," or whatever. And then, and then when you listen to them, you end up listening to them, and then you think, "Okay, I'm not going there because it's not working." But at the end, it might work if they just never tried it, or whatever. And if you think that they might be the best decision, then that's what makes the difference between him and a lot of other pilots. I think that he really analyzes everything for himself, and then it doesn't matter for him if he's flying in the lead or if he's flying
behind other pilots. If he flies behind other pilots, he will judge the other pilots he sees in front of him to make the best decision from whatever he thinks to whatever the other pilots are doing, but he will still make his own decision, which will bring him in the lead again.
Yeah, luckily he doesn't have to deal with following too much.
Not in this race, but I mean, in normal World Cups, whatever he will, he will not always be in front. It's, it's like I think he said it in one of his interviews, like, even if one of those young guys get in front of him, then you still need to be able to fly in front and make all those decisions yourself, because I remember flying with some guys like Benoit Utersi was flying exactly every single line that Krieger was doing. They were putting him on his GPS and just did exactly the same, which isn't the right way, because the day he flew there, it worked, but you might be one or two hours later, and then it's not, not the best line anymore.
And then I think It's, it's really important. I mean, your supporters are really important in this race, but also it's, uh, the the pilot at the end who, who needs to make the the right decisions when, when he's in the air, and you can't blame it on your supporters. Well, at least you can't blame it either on your supporters. I mean, you're just, it's your decision, so you can't, you can't say, "Why the hell did you send me up there?" was really shitty or whatever. So, I think this, this is a strong point from Griegel, which, which makes him so good. Pilot, yeah, yeah.
He's reading it on the fly, obviously. He's the best at that. Ferdy, I'm going to ask you what is maybe an impossible question, but I hope you can answer it. When you think back to your four campaigns, do you have a best and a worst experience? I know there's so many of both, but do you have one that really pops out?
I think the best was 2013 or 2015. I'm not sure, but I was in Grenoble. Grenoble in English. Yeah, Grenoble.
And then I made this really crazy line going south and then later on crossing back towards the main Alps. Like down
through Gap or something? Did you kind of stay with the St. Hilaire side for a while?
Yeah. Okay. I flew on the Vercors. So I flew this, and then I flew over the flats for a little bit to go back towards the Lac de Serre-Ponçon. And then from there, there was the Tour de France as well at the same time. At a certain point, I landed on a mountain. I called my support. I said, yeah, I don't know, man. It was really hard. It wasn't working in the beginning. I really had to fight to get up. And then all of a sudden, before crossing these flats, I got like a thermal which I don't know somehow went above the cloud base, and there was another cloud base higher up, and then I could cross these flats, and then I reached, well, like the second zone, and I called my supporter.
I said, "Oh, it was really hard, and I hope I can still cover some ground, uh, from now on," but it was already six o'clock or something, and then I managed to fly over like the Serre-Ponçon, and then, yeah, towards Saint-André-les-Alpes, and then even further than that, but there was already like in two hours or something I was flying like super fast. There was this, yeah, huge amount of backwind, and in every west phase that I would stumble on, or almost north face, I would, yeah, be catapulted like it was really, really, really nice. And then I ended up 80 kilometers from Monaco, and there was a really great flight. I think I overtook, I don't know, seven or eight pilots during that flight.
So that was really great. Like, yeah, really nice flight then.
So you overtook all the pilots that had stayed kind of deep. You took the wide line. Yeah, I remember that. I remember watching that. That was awesome. it
Was it? Was a bit of luck as well, because I asked pilots in Centillaire, "What could I do?" And then in spring, and I said, "Yeah, well, sometimes we go, we take this line, and then sometimes we cross, and then we go towards, well, deeper, like you're saying." And then I said, "Okay, let's just try this line," and it worked. And usually doesn't really work in summer because it's too stable, so you know, it was a bit of luck as well. I was, I just talked about this line to some local guys in spring when I was there, and then, and then, uh, and then I did it, and yeah, it worked great. But yeah, it was pretty, pretty hard, and I really did some low saves, like where I thought, "Oh shit, it could have been, it could have gone really bad as well." You know, I could have finished 15th or whatever, but yeah, it worked out fine, so it was cool, and
Then yeah, my worst, yeah, landing in some crazy wind somewhere
Hard to pin those down. We do that a bit, yeah.
I will like my worst also was, uh, when Thoma crashed in, I think was in 2015, when there was all these winds, uh, this east wind, or I think it was, yeah, east. We got a lot of east wind, no.
West? No, the west in 2015 was the strong west. That's when he landed in the coal up there, going backwards a million miles an hour. Yeah,
And then I was already like, "Fuck, why are we doing this? It's—we have to fight so much." And, uh, is it really worth it? And and then, and then we took off from this place with Thomas, and I was looking back with, "Where's Thomas?" I couldn't see him, and I thought, "Yeah, probably my eyes aren't open." I don't know, I couldn't find him anymore. And then I thought, "Yeah, well, probably something happened." You know, he should be there. And then, and then I landed on top of a mountain. I called my supporter, I said, "What is happening with Thomas?" Because he was just behind me, and I and then he already crashed, and I was on top of this mountain thinking, crying as well, like, why the hell are we doing this?
I thought he was dead, because we took off from a small ledge, like, we had 10 meters of grass, and then there was this big rock face going down, and then, yeah, I thought if he did something wrong on this takeoff, I don't know what could have happened, but then it can't be good, you know, He maybe fell down this rock face, and and that's actually what happened. So he, he tried to take off, and then when he like, you really had a short moment to pull up your glider and then turn around and then kind of jump off this cliff, but he just jumped off the cliff with the glider a bit too much in the back, and then so the glider stalled once he was in the air.
It wasn't actually flying yet, and then he like, yeah, stumbled down this, this cliff, and then luckily landed on a small ledge, so He didn't fell down all the way, but but yeah, he was lucky there that he didn't hurt himself more than I think he just had a small injury on his wrist or something, but he finished the race there. But I was really thinking, why the hell are we doing this?
Yeah, I mean, in 2015, maybe that was a different year, because in 2015 was when he pretty much got his face torn off. I mean, he, he had to, he had to quit the race. It was the same day that Michael Witschi, um, threw his reserve, but
I was still my coconut, but I was talking about, of course,
I'm sorry, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, you have those moments where you're like, like, "Whoa, kind of resets. What are we doing, um, next?"
day, I had this great flight from from there, from the Newfoundland Pass, all the way to to Chamonix. And then, yeah, and then I was happy again, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, you have your ups and downs, just like wine. Um, Ferdy, what a—what a joy, man. I appreciate it, and uh, so psyched to see your name on the—on the list again. I knew you'd be coming back, but that was—that was—it was great to see your—your name on the list again. We got a lot of young whippersnappers; they're going to be chomping at the heels around, or we're going to be chomping at their heels, I guess, more likely. But uh, it looks like a really well, probably the strongest uh field yet, and exciting to see what—what they give us for a course. But um, really excited to—to fly with you again and spend some time with you again and, and race with you again. So, but, uh, thanks for sharing your stories.
It will be interesting again. Yeah.
We'll see. We'll see.
It always is. It always is. Well, uh, talk again soon. Good luck with your training and COVID. I mean, obviously it's not looking that good right now for coming over, even doing the race, but, uh, COVID dependent we'll be seeing you in May or June. see you soon yeah all right bud talk soon thanks freddie yeah see you bye bye stay healthy bye if
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