Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of Cloudbase Mayhem. I'm recording this in Utah, doing some towing here with Cody Mittanck, who I was just down in Texas with, doing a little bit of acro and SIV stuff. And two days after we got down to Texas, I believe, I think that was June 20th or so, so we were just kind of getting into it, I got an email from Jonathan Deitch, who has sent me a bunch of great people to talk to on the Mayhem over the years. And he had sent me the article about Owen Morse, who had just broken, that day on the 20th, the out-and-back record, world record, out in the Owens. That record had been down in Chile for quite a while, I don't remember who to, he says it in the show here.
But 222 miles on almost the longest day of the year in the Owens. And June 20th, it would have been pretty spicy, I'm sure super tall. I actually looked at the track log of that, he's got it up on Avery. And stuff, but awesome flight from Walt's Point, so up the Sierras, cross over the Whites, out off the end of the Whites, and made it all the way home. And so, very, very cool flight. And this record was something Owen had been chasing for six years. So we hear about his history and that chase and a bunch of cool stuff in regards to hang gliding, of course. But I also, when I was getting ready for the talk with Owen, realized that he is one of the most, or maybe the, most famous jugglers on earth.
He and his partner have been doing this stuff for 32 years they've been working together. They have performed for the Queen and Jay Leno and Johnny Carson. They've been on This America's, or Who's Got Talent, a show in the States. I think they've been on that twice. These guys throw knives and burning stuff and chainsaws, and they are a riot. It's a comedy show, it is awesome. Got to go. I'm going to go to the show notes and check out all the links that we've put up there and all the videos they have. Of course, right now with COVID, they're not traveling around the world as they usually do performing. So they're doing it all from their studio in California. And so I guess that's probably where he spends most of his time because to do what these guys are doing has just, man, it takes Malcolm Gladwell's thing totally out.
They're way over 10,000 hours. It is remarkable what these guys do. Super fun. It was a riot. My daughter was just cracking up. It was little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little He said, well, yeah, I ran 100 meters in 11, I think it's 11.2 seconds while juggling three balls. And he's done 100 meters in just over 13 seconds.
This is all on the show, but I'm still just really excited about it while juggling five balls. So incredible, insane talent and a lot of fun. And really, you've got to go to the show notes and watch some of these videos. This guy is just super fun and his partner. They're obviously having a really good time. Met in college and they've been doing this their whole life. So what a cool way to make a living. And you get to go hang gliding all the time. So enjoy this talk. I had a blast with this and they go and did as well. I think you're going to enjoy it. Cheers.
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saw, I don't know, it would have been close to 15 years ago, I think, George Stebbins set the out-and-back world record in the Owens, 100 miles out and back. And that sort of captured my imagination and just went, my goodness, that is so, so cool. And then after that, Tom Weissenberger beat that record down in Chile. And, you know, I just, I always thought it should be done in a thermal flying site and in California and, well, in a valley called the Owens Valley. Seemed appropriate, too. So, yeah, I've been working on it for six years and finally have just learned the place enough, studied the weather enough, had the right equipment,
the right mindset and the right support team behind me. And boy, it happened.
For those people who are listening who aren't familiar with the Owens, I mean, it's got that reputation like some places do, but describe flying there to folks who haven't flown in the Owens.
Well, it's just, you know, the lore of the Owens Valley has been around since, you know, the early 70s. It's a magical place. I think of it sort of being as like the mavericks of hang gliding locations. Just big air. And you just need to respect it. It's beautiful. And it can be challenging and a little terrifying. And the conditions can be so strong. But my goodness, there's so much untapped potential there. And it's a place that, you know, glider pilots don't seem to visit much anymore. It's, it's, it seems to sort of, dropped off the mat for whatever reason.
But goodness, it's, it's a fabulous place to fly.
Well, it's great that pilots like yourselves and maybe some others are, are maybe getting back into it there. You know, I was down in Texas with Larry Tudor, which was incredibly special for me to hang out with him and hear all of his stories. And that it used to be, like you said, you pull up to Waltz on a given day and it was packed.
Right. Yeah. There used to be, I mean, you watch the old, footage of the place, you know, hundreds of pilots showing up on a weekend, not even for comps, just, Hey, we're, we're flying, flying the Owens. And that was it. And yeah, certainly Larry Tudor, you know, put the place on the map, especially using Waltz on the Sierra side. And, you know, it's, it's, I'm thinking it's going to have a resurgence. I certainly, and I start seeing paraglider flights happening from there and other launches, nine mile road and, and you think, okay, this, this could be a renaissance of, of the place. And I, I would love to see that happen.
Yeah. I mean, for, for us on, on our side of things, we went out and did that bivy across the Sierras up to the Oregon border in 2012. And just before that, I believe it was right around in that zone in 2011, 2012, Dave Turner started flying in the Sierras. And we were hearing all these stories about him flying there in the summer. And that just, it hadn't been done in like a decade. It had been a long time since that was going down. And so it's, it's great to see that Owens is back on the map. I mean, we used to have world championships there and big comps.
Exactly. Yeah. And I, I think that can happen again. I, I, you know, when you talk about comps, I, I'm a mountain pilot. I, I gravitate towards, you know, my home site is Crestline, California, and, you know, I'm just flying up and down the mountain ranges all, all the time. And, that sort of flying makes sense to me. I've done a couple of comps, you know, big spring and out in Florida and the flat, honestly, the flatlands confuse me. I, you know, I fly the ground and the wind and I, you know, people go, no, you gotta fly the clouds. I go, what? All right. I, I guess. So I've got a lot to learn, but man, I think there's some interest in, in doing foot launch mountain flying comps again.
Uh, in recent years, they've, uh, done some in dinosaur and they just had the Canadian nationals. Uh, I did that last year and, and, uh, cam loops and, um, you know, that's, that's my type of flying. I, I just really love that.
How did you get into all this absurdity and give us a timeframe?
Yeah, I had my first tandem flight in 1990. Um, and it wasn't until 93 until I got my first hang glider. Um, and I, I, I was little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little So I just ended up focusing my attention more on hang gliding. And I got my hang four in 98 and just started doing cross country flying in 2000.
And it just really captured me. I just really loved it. And, you know, just mostly spent my time flying between Elsinore, a little bit of Torrey Pines, and Crestline, and Sylmar up in L.A. So local Southern California flying. But, yeah, then turned my attention to more XC-related tasks. So every time I would fly cross Crestline, I'd try to go. Just go somewhere. And, yeah. Mostly out and backs. And I just find those so civilized to be able to take off, fly for four or five hours, go as far as you can away.
And the chess game of how far out can I go and still make it back just really appealed to me. So every time I fly, that's my goal. And there's some really good big air to the east of Crestline that nobody really taps into. So, you know, when people are getting 6,000, 7,000 feet of Crestline, well, you're getting 11, 12, 14,000 over San Gregonio or San Jacinto.
And so that's kind of been my training ground. And I think that's prepared me a bit for the Owens Valley, too, because summer days can be pretty strong at Crestline.
So, yeah. I mean, when you say that Marshall, Elsinore is kind of a big deal. The Rowdy. Is that more in the kind of spring? Because in the summer, it gets quite stable. Is that when you move to the other side and start flying out into the Mojave and stuff and flying in the desert?
Yeah. Spring and fall are days where you can get up high enough to make the jump over the back. Summer gets, yeah, you get high pressure and you get an inversion layer. But you can bust through that if you head east. And that's sort of something I've learned over the years that the more you head east, the higher the mountains are. And you can crack through the inversion layer and bust out some good miles.
You said, I'm jumping around here a little bit, but you said on the day that you had the record from Waltz and you did the out and back, you kind of had everything aligned. But you also said you had the right mindset. Tell me about that.
Well, yeah. So I've been looking for the right day. And you're looking for a day that's light variable at all elevations or as many as you can. And I was fortunate. I look at the solstice as being my marker, the summer solstice. Obviously, you're looking for the longest day. And so 20 days before and after the solstice is where I'm really focusing on the right day and what's going to be likely to give me the opportunity to set the out and back. And I'm friends with Rob McKenzie, and he and I have talked about this extensively. And we figure there's six days a year where it actually is possible to do it. Yeah. So I'm not a very aggressive pilot. I'm actually relatively conservative.
I think my strength is in endurance. I don't really have a problem flying for 10 hours. But it's also I try to be as aggressive as I have to be to race because you're racing the sun. But I also try to make the smart moves, be patient when I have to be patient. And and and, you know, push when I have to push in or am able to push. So, you know, I fly with oxygen even though I, you know, well, the highest I got was over 17,000 feet. But for the most part, I try to stay low and push above 12,000 feet. You know, I noticed that day was pretty turbulent. And, you know, the old ones can can eat your lunch, man.
So why spend time climbing up through that mess?
When you can just just drive and just make short climbs and drive short climbs and so and then climb to the top when you have to make a crossing. And so just try to be smart about it. You know, and I actually changed my tactic this year. And I think that was the reason for my success, too, is I in the previous years I had been told that you don't want to go off the ends of the whites in the north past boundary peak just because there's no no good. And so I would launch waltz and had 15 point two miles south to Alansha. And that's where I would start my. Get my first turn point. So then with that amount of distance, I could go north and just go to Boundary Peak as my turn point.
Just dab into Nevada for just because I thought it was amusing to. So I put my turn point in Nevada and turned around. But then coming back, you run into the southern. Right. Oh little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little And, yeah, just to pull it, you know, at the end, just going, no, I don't want to sit here all night for a long retrieve and just make that decision was pretty tough.
But the numbers weren't looking right. And I thought, well, I'll try again next year. And that's kind of it. So this year I just looked into the idea of starting at Waltz, tagging a point at 395 and then turning back around, go back to Waltz and climb up and go north and go off the end. Go off the end of Boundary Peak and across to the other side and see what was there. And I had never flown that area before, but I studied it for hours on Google Earth and just watched XC Skyline. And see where the triggers likely were going to be. And, oh, goodness, it couldn't have gone better. You know, I got drilled going off the end.
And I thought, this is why people don't do this. You know, sustained 2,000 feet per minute down and going, shoot, I'm an idiot. And yet, you know, you're doing that at the middle of the day. And so you're going, OK, well, there's got to be something. And sure enough, rewarded with a 700 up on the other side and just rode it. And then got my turn point. And, you know, people were curious that, you know, you see my track log and you can find it online. You know, I didn't turn right around and head back to Boundary because the winds through there can just blow you straight into Nevada. And it's a
real, real, real prominent Venturi through there.
Absolutely. And it reminds me a lot of the Cahome Pass and, you know, that crest line. So you go, OK, well. So I played. I played. I played it west a bit and flew over Benton. And so I, you know, and I only lost 1,000 feet coming back across to the whites, which, you know, I told Mike Meyer and Steve Pearson, you know, I made about three good decisions and three poor decisions. I got lucky three times and unlucky three times. And none of the things I none of the bad things or poor choices I made, you know, cost me. Yeah, it really penalized me. Right. And the good choice. The good choice is made up for those enough that that. Yeah, I will say, yes, I did get lucky, but I also made some good choices, too.
And that was one of them to head back to play the winds and get back established pretty quickly on the whites and keep going. So I
often think, you know, lucky, you know, we could say the same thing for a Chrigel, you know, but there are pilots that create their own. They create their I mean, how can he get lucky that much? Right. Right. Right. So. So he's created. I mean, it seems like with you six years in a sense of trying this and planning it and then identify it to me. It's all identifying the day. And you how far out did you were you looking at this day?
Well, that's the cool thing is I, you know, obviously I've been studied. Like I said, I studied the weather 20 days before, but I saw Friday the the 19th on Tuesday and I went, oh, that's. That's the day I saw that that, you know, three or four days out. And I called my buddy George Stevens and said, hey, are you seeing what I'm seeing on Friday? And and he came back the next day and said, oh, yeah, I think, you know, and none of the days are ever perfect. You don't get a 10 out of a 10, but it was certainly an eight out of 10. And I thought that's all I need. And then the next day on Wednesday, I went, you know, often you see the day deteriorate or, you know, it's not what it used to be, but it held. And. And it looked like it still could be good.
And then on Thursday, I said, it's a go. And so, yeah, I drove up Thursday night and was prepared bright and early Friday morning. And and even got. Were you
by yourself?
Yeah. Yeah. Actually, George Stevens joined me that day. He was just going to do a free flight. So. But, yeah, he and I were the only pilots flying that day. And. Yeah. But. Man,
where were the paragliders? Light and variable. You know. Up to 18 grand. Sounds perfect.
Oh. I expected to see some. Now, I did launch early at 941 in the morning. And. But sure. I. It was certainly launchable for paraglider pilots. I thought somebody's going to bust something good today.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me ask you that. So earlier this year, I think it was kind of early June. There was a couple really good days. But downwinders, they wouldn't have been out and backs. And I agree with you 100 percent. There's nothing sexier than landing where you took off. That's just fantastic. But are guys like you and your crew and this kind of, you know, let's call it a little mini renaissance or maybe hopefully I hope that's what's happening. You know, those they had to bet Revis and those guys had two back to back days where they were launching nine mile. And those of you listening, I realize we're throwing along the terms that if you don't know the islands, that doesn't mean much to you. But the main launch is Waltz. It's on the Sierra side. You typically fly from there up to kind of near Bishop.
And then you cross over to the. Whites, which is the next range to the east. But nine mile is down further down south. So it's it can be a better start if you're just going one way because you can get a whole bunch of ground covered on the Sierra side and you cross, get a bit more ground covered on the whites and then you keep going. And so these guys are, you know, I think Revis did it had a couple of days were kind of in the low 300 K your flight, 368 K in light and variable in and out back, which is much harder work than just. Oh man.
Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. open distance. Um, in my opinion, I just think there's something just really cool about saying, no, I started and that's, and specifically actually to be clear, I did get two world records that day. It was the declared out and back and then they gave me the open cause it happened to be, uh, longer. My declared happened to be longer than the previous open. So that's pretty sweet. Yeah. Yeah. That is super sweet. Yeah. So, uh, uh, but yeah, just to be able to say, yeah, I'm going to go to this, I'm going to take off here. I'm going to go to this specific spot, this 400 meter radius circle.
I'm going to tag it and then come back to where I started. So, but you know, yeah, to your, to your point. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's still big miles to be had out there. And on a day where you can get off waltz or, or an even nine mile for that matter. Yeah. I spent some time at night, my nine mile in the morning, go, yeah, this is launchable with a hang glider. I mean, it's a hike in obviously, but if you started there, then you get to run all those miles North and then get to waltz pretty early too, and just keep going. And so, yeah, there's some 300 plus miles out there to be had easy. Well, not easy, but it's possible.
Right. It's, it's, it's there. I like how Will Gadd talks about this year is that it's just, it's one of the most complex environments. You could possibly fly in. And I think there are others, but the, they're not many places that are more complex when you, in terms of just the micro stuff you're dealing with.
Absolutely. Yeah. It's
a very rowdy place.
It's a rowdy place and it changes. There's some, there's some patterns that show up that you can kind of anticipate, but you kind of go, okay, what, what elevation am I going to be flying? What time of day? So, you just XCSkies is a tool that you, I mean, we just didn't have that back back in the day. And so to be able to just see these trends, these, these patterns emerge, you know I think again, the Owens Valley is untapped. We're missing out on some big flights happening there. And I, I can't wait to see other people try it. And I think my plan is to just try to beat the record every year. I, I, I'm not done. I want to, it's, it's just pure joy for me out there.
I, I just love it. You know, I'm not too old. I'm 53 right now and I've got some adventures left in me.
Yeah, you do. Let's, let's transition temporarily here to, I think you have maybe the most interesting job I've ever heard of. Tell us how you make a living.
You know, this is goofy. I, as I mentioned, I, I, I honestly, I lead a charter.
I'm not little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little little hey what are you doing after college i don't know what are you doing hey let's throw a show together and uh see if we can do that for a couple years and then we'll go get our real jobs well that was 32 years ago and uh within the first two years we got on the tonight show with johnny carson twice um we were in the adams family movie if you saw that there's a scene we're going that's an uncle fester pull out these daggers and start throwing them back and forth um that was us we stunt doubled for raul julia i was gomez and john was christopher lloyd's part uncle fester uh shortly after that we did a royal command performance for prince charles we've uh performed at the white house uh recently we did a couple of runs on america's got talent a lot of people might have seen us on that um and we just yeah just last week we were on penn and tellers fool us um so it's this crazy crazy crazy gig we juggle chainsaws and stun guns and rat traps and you know ridiculous stuff uh the name of our show we're called the passing zone if you have a moment and want to be amused go to passingzone.com and see see all the ridiculous crap that we throw around and uh but it's a joy i i get to make people laugh for a living and i just feel as silly as juggling is to throw things up in the air and try to catch them uh i'm bringing a small amount of joy into the world and that just feels great and
have you guys been together 32 years that's
it yeah it's an
incredible partnership you
know it really is i'm so proud of our partnership uh you know 32 years together and and still and still enjoying it and and uh appreciating every day how
much training goes into this job you
know uh a surprising amount if you knew how many thousands are of hours are behind every routine that you see us do you just go you guys are insane so just we practice every day of the week usually three to four hours a day and a lot of that is you know honing our skills uh but it's also developing new skills and new routines um we have this uh warehouse space uh between our homes uh john is up in uh hermosa beach and i'm down in tustin in orange county and uh you know yeah we have this spot a warehouse space that we get together it's our we call it our clubhouse and uh as you might imagine with the current pandemic um there's not a lot of call for live entertainment um so right our lives have in a way been put on hold our next gig that's let's see it's july now uh 2020 um our next gig isn't until february of 2021 so which
is also probably still maybe considering how things are going to be in the future but we're going to be doing a lot of right oh
for sure i i think that one's a definite maybe so we've had to pivot a bit and so we've turned our warehouse space into a television studio effectively it's it's we're doing live stream shows virtual shows from there and our primary market is the corporate events market so um yeah we uh we stream out our show and we try to you know think of creative ways to get people involved um you know our show definitely is heavily uh audience interactive um so we figure out a way to uh to to get a mannequin and get a uh an ipad that we hang on the mannequin's face and then we facetime somebody on the zoom call and get them to hold their phones right up to their face and so all of a sudden now they're in our warehouse space and you know we can talk to them and interact with them and just tell them to hold really still and and uh they're really good at that
anyway it's a way to uh to connect with people and try to break up their day i mean we're all just struggling with this and trying to figure out ways to continue doing what we do best and and and like i said bring bring a little joy sure
yeah so you mentioned you know johnny carson and penn and teller and playing for the queen what tell me about the is it is it more stressful how you've learned how to deal with that in terms of the pressure well
sure you know people ask me okay do you get nervous before the show and i just say well yeah every show i you know and there's nothing worse than being nervous and juggling i mean your skill level especially doing live tv goodness doing america's got talent with you know 14 million people watching you if you drop a chainsaw you know there's no recovery from that i mean there's so that's
when you have to be really good at comedy
exactly well that's the thing you know you you after years of working together with john uh we've just figured out ways to to joke about it and and make light of it and um but yeah nervousness to me just means i care i want every show to be as good as it can possibly be and and so but once you get going and the audience starts reacting and appreciating what you do and laughing those go away and we feed off of energy and we give it right back and it's just it's just awesome and it's it's interesting because there's this interesting parallel i think between hang gliding uh paragliding as well and and uh and juggling and that is i think they're both really misunderstood you know if your listeners are gonna go okay he's a professional juggler they imagine me in big floppy shoes and a red nose and a circus you know that sort of thing but it's it's not at all that you know it's it's not at all that i mean we we kind of model ourselves a little bit off of like a pen and teller uh you know magicians who wear suits on stage and and are you know very comedic based and stuff but you know in the hang gliding world you know you tell people you're a hang glider pilot or a paraglider pilot and they just go oh you're you've got a death wish you know uh you jump off a cliff and you you fly down and they don't understand the beauty and the intricacies of the sport and i just feel
like i need this like almost a psa to say no no here's what it is you need to understand that we're finding thermals we're staying in the air for hours we're launching and landing often when and where we want to and it's uh it's a much different sport than it was in the 70s and it was for that reason that i really wanted to do something to reach out to the public and my my airport is um i fly out all the time is john wayne airport in orange county here and so in uh 2000 and geez i think it was 2008 i created a hang gliding exhibit there and it actually is still there today so if you go to the airport and look up there are four hang gliders hanging from the ceiling above the baggage claims there and it's a way of showing people because the the preconception of what a hang glider looks like it's the 70s you know bamboo
you
know kind of a kind of a kite yeah
exactly and this you know things strung together with duct tape you know whatever so to see these carbon fiber sexy wings that just look astonishing and just the new fabrics that you know manufacturers are using now i think it's just a way to show that hey this is a sport that's matured and it is a real thing now and uh so i i'm proud that that's still out there as a way to share the sport even subconsciously with the public in general as a way of telling them hey we're not what we used to be um this is something that you should look into if it interests you do
you think that your juggling career and all the training you've done has that impacted how you fly how you approach flying how how you train yeah
you know most definitely i i am a huge believer i mean i just see it every day what practice can do and prepared practice can do you know i spend hours working on juggling tricks that some of them just for me you know things that will never be in the show because they're just too damn hard but just focus practice and and you get better and you try different things and you you experiment and you so i i definitely think there's a a nice crossover of skills and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a really good point between hang gliding and juggling and and the way i look at it you
also look like a really fit person is that is that um do you do you feel like that plays a part in your ability to fly 10 hours and be cool yeah
well there's there's one i tell people all the time you don't often see an overweight juggler and that's primarily because they can't afford to eat but uh
i
bet you put that
in there i bet you put that in there i bet you put that in there i bet you put that in there exactly my favorite one is what's the difference between a large pizza and a juggler that's just a large pizza can feed a family of four uh but uh no i mean there's obviously a physical aspect to juggling and i think yeah i mean it's it's a very active uh thing and i think that has helped my ability to stay fit and and certainly the endurance of that has transitioned nicely over to uh being able to stay in the air for 10 hours i i you know at the end i was fresh i was you know and had i been short again on the 19th the 20th looked like it was flyable and i was just going okay if i'm short i'm going again tomorrow i'll be back at it and uh so i yeah that's if i have a skill set you know i am i hang out with zippy i hang out with you know somebody you know john duran some of the best pilots in the world and uh you know they are they are amazing at what they do so if i have a skill set to me i think it's uh staying in the air for a long time and and being all right with it um so being patient being patient and just yeah i'm not flying super fast i'm just out there to beat the sun not beat another pilot um and uh yeah and and just try to be smart you know what i'm doing i'm not doing anything wrong i'm just doing what i'm doing maybe lacking skills i try to make up you know i'm flying with oxygen so i'm thinking clearly the whole time and uh you know there's a lot of pilots oh you don't need oxygen you're not going to be that high for that long but just that little edge to go okay i'm i'm thinking clearly that's super important
yeah i mean that's that the cowboy side of no oxygen i think has been long left behind which is a good thing we just we know now what that our brains don't function all that well when we're tall so yeah i think that's a good thing i think that's a good thing i think that's a good thing any little advantage we can get it's a good thing yeah
i'm i support that theory for sure yeah
what how has flying changed your life you
know it it's uh you've been at this a while i've been at this a while right and it just i think the community is uh it's just fabulous i really seem to connect with pilots you know i it may surprise many people you know you'll see me on stage and you go oh my gosh look how funny he is or look how relaxed i am an introvert i'm honestly just a uh a person who recharges when i'm by myself and um and hang gliding has has um allowed me to do now i i really enjoy being social i love the community the juggling community and the hang gliding community i i thrive on on that but then i i find i can only do that for a while
beautiful gathering of people and and personalities and i i just i consider my hang gliding you know group to be to be my the people i choose to be with and and i enjoy it very much so yeah it's just it shaped so many of my um my desires my my passions my dreams things i want to achieve and uh it just provides me an outlet that that brings me peace and yeah it's in the sky is where i want to be
is that is that is it been like that from the beginning have you had any kind of uh ups and downs or is if you you sound like you're uber passionate about it now has it been like that kind of through your flying career you
know i think it really has been you know in the beginning i i didn't have the ability financially to do that but i think it's been a really good experience for me and i think it's been a really good experience for me and i think it's been a really good experience for me financially to to pursue it as much as i wanted to john and i were just getting started and our careers together you know we were on the road quite a bit in those beginning years so i didn't have that opportunity but then the fact that performing sort of transitioned to more out and backs where i'd go to vegas and then come back for three days and head to orlando and then back for two days and so i'd had that's more the long outs you know doing two weeks on the road or three weeks on a cruise ship or something like that and i think it's been a really good experience for me too and that and then it became a little bit more lucrative when we were getting into the corporate market so that allowed me to have the financial freedom to to go explore and gliding some more and um you know i think i just love everything about i hear people just talk about oh
you know it takes me so long to set up my wing and so long to pack it up and head up the hill and you know i think it's been a really good experience for me and i think it's been a really good experience for me and i think it's been a really good experience for me to do this and that and i think i love putting my wing up on my car i love unzipping that bag every time and creating this magical thing that comes out of this tube that i just i'm creating it's just this little my personal rocket ship that's carbon fiber and sexy and and then flying it around for three four or five hours and landing and then i just i love taking it apart and putting it back in its bag and i just it just i don't know it's just it's It just seems, you know, not to get too existential. It's
all ridiculous and magical, isn't it? It really is. You
know, we've been looking for 200,000 years. Man has been looking up in the air and wishing they could be a bird, wishing we could fly and soar. And it hasn't been until the last 50 years that that was even an option. So it's just we are living in the future. And it is a magical time to be alive. And I feel like I owe it to all those humans, 200,000 years of humans to do this because they didn't get a chance to. And I do. And I just I want to celebrate that and do that for them. And, you know, I know that sounds cheesy, but I do. I honestly feel that way.
We are lucky. We are leading charmed lives to be able to do this. And I feel an obligation to educate people to allow them to know that this is a possibility simply because I don't believe they understand it. So if they don't know what a thermal is and that a thermal every day the sun's out is out there to carry us up. And that's hard to wrap your mind around when you don't see it. So these track logs that we post these, you know, your social media, the things you're doing, Gavin. I mean, you are. You are changing the world one podcast at a time. And honestly, I truly believe this should share this joy with as many people as possible.
No, it's not for everyone. Now, don't get. Sure. I don't say everyone should do this, but those who do should at least know about it. Right.
Yeah. We were having this discussion on the very long drive to Texas or coming back. I can't remember which one. But it's interesting. You know, I live in a place. I live in Sun Valley in Idaho, which is just filled. With a valley of go getters like outdoor enthusiasts, you know, backcountry skiers and kayakers and, you know, hiking and fly fishing. And, you know, these are people that really get after it and they live there because they want to be outside. And they all know. I mean, I've lots of these people are very my very good friends and they know what I do and they don't want to do it. It's really interesting. Isn't it fascinating? How can you not want to do this? Right. And
again, I. I that that baffles me because it is so glorious. I have become friends with Penn Jillette, a Penn and Teller, and he has been he had been talking for years about wanting to fly with me. And I said, dude, you you need to do it. And he weighed three hundred and thirty two pounds a few years back. He lost a hundred pounds. So he got down to two thirty two and he's still around there today. So a couple of years ago, I took him. I took him with me and we did a tandem flight together and he just dug it. He's done a whole podcast on it. And it was I had him do a little magic trick up there, pull out a car.
And we had a drone following us. So there's some great footage of that. And, you know, it's it's just one of those things for people who want to do it. I love that we can make it accessible to them. But you're right. For some people, it's just not their thing. And I. I. I get it. You know, it's not. Yeah. Not for everyone. And I don't you know, they don't need to do it because I think, you know, it's awesome. But.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you you. So you have the declared record and the out and back record. And then right before we started recording, you've got like six other world records. You've got more world records than anybody. So he's all in in jog joggling. What is it called?
Yeah. So, OK. This is about as ridiculous as it can get. There's something there is a sport out there called joggling and it's spelled J. O. G. G. L. I. N. G. So do.
Amuse yourself and type in joggling into a Google search and you're going to see a picture of me joggling with five balls. It was actually in the front page of the Guinness Book of World Records. It's it's as as it might. It's juggling and running or jogging at the same time. So I have the world record for 100 meters, five ball juggling and three three ball juggling for 100 meters. Now, this is this is a fun story. I was lucky enough to do a show with Usain Bolt last year. Wow. Yeah. So it was cool. We were doing a gig in Mexico City and he was on the same bill and I approached him afterwards and I said, hey, man, good to meet you.
We have something in common. And he's like, yeah. So, yeah, man, what's that? And I said, well, we both hold the world record for 100 meters. What's you talking about, man? And I. So I go, come
on, let's go, man. Toe to toe. But I said,
you know, I, I hold the world record for running 100 meters and juggling at the same time. And he goes, no. How fast you do it? I go, how fast you think I did? He goes, oh, I don't know. Fifteen seconds. I go eleven six. He goes, no, man.
You did it in eleven point six seconds. Eleven
six. So I used to be on the. Dude, I know it doesn't slow you down too much. So I'm a decathlete in college. And so I was a runner before a juggler or a pilot. So
it's the cow. Is there a video of this? I got to see the video of this.
Yeah, it's it's, you know, do a search. You do a YouTube search and you'll find some crazy TV shows. I thought you were going to
say like twenty five or something. That is you're fast. And
then with five balls, it's like thirteen eight, something like that. So it's. Oh, my God.
Yeah, it's. That's crazy. It's
crazy. So that's those. I mean, that's another example of like the most ridiculous world record one can have is a sport called juggling. Now, there was another. I also happen to hold the world record for chainsaw juggling. Most catches with another person. And the most the record I'm most proud of that we no longer have. But we. John and I set the world record for club passing back in ninety three. We were the first humans to pass eleven clubs back and forth. So those are the bowling pin shaped things. So we there's some Russians that had the record for many years and at ten. And we were the first to achieve eleven club passing between two people. And that that held for about a decade, maybe a little longer.
And then some more Russians came and took that from us. Well,
what kind of training would you have to do to get it back? How many hours went into that ninety three record?
Oh, again, thousands of hours. Yeah. When you just think of, you know, all the prep and all the training and stuff. Yeah. So there are not enough hours left in my life to allow me to beat to get it back. To get it back. Yeah. We're noticing at our age that our reflexes aren't what they used to be. And for technical reasons, I won't go into the details of it, but there's a new method for. For passing clubs that that will bore your listeners. But just say it's it's a little bit like if John and I are playing tennis with wood rackets and everybody else is playing with. They are. OK, so
gotcha. And and I know this is a flying show, but this is just so fascinating. So I used to run or used to run chains on a hot shot crew. Are you are you throwing real chainsaws? So
that's the deal. Full disclosure. Yes, we are throwing real chainsaws. Now I have ground down the teeth on the chain. That's the other thing. I run them idle idled up. So those chains are spinning as we're juggling them. So
there's fuel in them and everything. Oh,
yeah. Awful. And they're loud and they're yeah, they're the worst. But it's what people want to see. And so we're there to give it to them. Carnage. Yeah. Well, we
love our carnage. That must have been after a particularly bad night at drinking that you guys came up with that. That
idea. Well, the funny thing is, it's the audience. You know, you can't help you get hecklers. Oh, juggle chainsaws. And you're like, oh, good grief. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
But, you know, it's one of those things where after a while you just go, that's what they want. That's. And so you go, okay, well, how do we do this in a way that's actually worthwhile? So John and I try to find the funny in everything we do on stage. And one of the things we thought was, what about the juxtaposition? Between the idea of these manly, mean, awful chainsaws and ballet.
So we got ourselves some purple tights and Husqvarna's and we started working on a piece called the Chainsaw Ballet. So we juggle chainsaws and dance around the stage and throw these roaring things back and forth as we're dancing around. And prancing and being goofy. So it's hilarious and dangerous and ridiculous. And it's my job.
What an awesome job. Do you come up with, so, you know, especially during the, this whole, you know, coronavirus situation, it was, I don't come up with very good ideas unless I'm out doing stuff. You know, so I do a lot of writing and, you know, if I get what, you know, my version of a writer's block or something, you know, usually a bike ride or a walk. Or something will help that. Where do your ideas come from? Do you get them from when you're flying? Do you get them when, how do you guys keep creative after 32 years? You
know, that's a very good question. And that ends up being sort of the most important part of our job is coming up with new things. And we're inspired by so many different areas. One of the nice things about flying is I don't think about juggling while I'm flying. I don't think about anything but flying. So that becomes a nice escape for me. But, you know, John and I sit, that's perhaps the most important part of us getting together every day is the part of our practice where we're not throwing things back and forth. But we're just talking. We have a section in our warehouse space where we sit and we talk about what we saw on YouTube that day. Or what we saw, you know, what's in the news. How to be topical. How do we change? You know, because juggling, honestly, by itself. I mean, like I said, we have world records in juggling because we're, you know, we spent so much.
I'm trying to be the best in the world at it. But nobody cares. Nobody cares whether we're juggling seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven clubs back and forth. It just doesn't matter. What they want is a connection with us and our show and our senses of humor. And they want an insight into who we are as people and what we are as a team and how that works. And so, you know, recently we sometimes just try to combine goofy skills. Like I've learned how to throw knives. And John's learned how to juggle upside down. And so we created this piece recently where he's. All right. This guy's not just follow me here. Take a moment. So John juggles upside down on a swinging pendulum back and forth.
So he's hanging by his ankles with gravity boots swinging back and forth. I stand on one side of him as he's swinging back and forth in front of me with this. The target. On the other side of him. So as
you're hucking knives across his plane.
Exactly right. And I'm blindfolded. So he's got to tell me. Oh my God. The drone. Yeah. And so we thought, well, this is cool, but it's not audience participation. So we thought, Hey, let's get somebody from the audience and join him on the pendulum. So now we get a female volunteer that stands next to him swinging back and forth. So she's going through the path of the knives. We thought, okay, he'll tell me. And I've got a target with a balloon on it on the other side of both of them. And so he'll tell me when to throw in order to save his own life. And we tell her, you tell me where to throw in order to pop that balloon. And then that balloon happens to be attached to a trigger mechanism that launches a pie into another volunteer's face.
So this is ridiculous. So clearly we have a lot of free time on our hands. I think that's what we're discovering here. So, you know, if I could pop it with an eight throw, so I, you know, he gets swinging, he's going now and I throw a knife and she's like higher. And then now, so back and forth and finally pop the balloon and the pie gets launched in the face and we're all happy. It all ends well.
What an awesome job you guys just to get to sit around and fart around all day and have fun. That
is it. I get to go. I
realize it's not farting around. You're obviously training, but it just, what a great, I mean, and creative.
It is an amazing thing in a beautiful country where one can make a living as a professional juggler and get away with it.
Yeah. You guys are winning for sure. You're winning. Okay. I just, because it is a flying show, I'll bring it back with just one, one question. And then I just, I really appreciate your time. This has been a blast. If you could, you've heard the show. You've heard me ask this a million times. If you could rewind the clock, sounds like to maybe 90, maybe 93 is that you learned in 90 did a tandem, but, you know, kind of think back to your 50 hour self. What would you change? What, what advice would you wish you've gotten or anything, anything you would have done differently?
You know, I, I just have to thank those who, who brought this sport into my life. Joe Greblo, Andy beam, Rob McKenzie, those instructors, they, they. Have changed my life, honestly. And I, I have appreciated hang gliding from every step of the way from those very first flights that were, you're just getting a foot off the ground for 10 feet. How magical is that? I mean, honestly, uh, I have, it was, it's been a slow progression. Maybe I would have chosen to try to figure out a way to do it faster, but you know what? I I've appreciated the journey the whole way. And, and honestly. Like I said, I'm leading a charmed life and I just want to share that with.
Give, hopefully give that to people who haven't discovered it yet. So, so they can do the same at that. If that appeals to them.
Well, it sounds like you've got a lot of gratitude and that's about the most important thing there is. So keep, keep entertaining. This is a, just what a, what a fun talk and congratulations on this amazing flight and achievement. And
thank you so much.
And like, and hopefully that's just the first of many and can't wait to share some, some sky with you soon. So that would be, that would be great. I'm sure our paths will cross if they haven't already. We were thinking that they maybe had out in Marshall Sunday, but another X-Alps is coming up next year. So I'll be out in your neck of the woods training this, this winter and, but, uh, all the best to you. And, and thank you so much for, for sharing this, this crazy, uh, these crazy years of yours with us.
Thank you so much, brother. I, I, again, I'm honored to be with you today and, uh, keep doing what you're doing. It's really needed and appreciated. And, uh, cheers. Cheers. Cheers, bud.
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Bye. Bye. Bye.