Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cloudbase Mayhem. Recording this in Utah, doing some towing here with Cody Mittanck, who I was just down in Texas with, doing a little bit of acro and SIV stuff. And two days after we got down to Texas, I believe, I think that was June 20th or so, so we were just kind of getting into it, I got an email from Jonathan Deitch, who has sent me a bunch of great people to talk to on the Mayhem over the years. And he had sent me the article about Owen Morse, who had just broken that day on the 20th, the out-and-back record, world record, out in the Owens. That record had been down in Chile for quite a while. I don't remember who to. He says it in the show here.
But 222 miles on almost the longest day of the year in the Owens. And June 20th, it would have been pretty spicy. I'm sure super tall. I actually looked at the track log of that. He's got it up on Avery. And stuff, but awesome flight from Walt's Point. So up the Sierras, cross over the Whites, out off the end of the Whites and made it all the way home. And so very, very cool flight. And this record was something Owen had been chasing for six years. So we hear about his history and that chase and a bunch of cool stuff in regards to hang gliding, of course. But I also, when I was getting ready for the talk with Owen, realized that he is one of the most, or maybe the, most famous jugglers on Earth.
He and his partner have been doing this stuff for 32 years they've been working together. They have performed for the Queen and Jay Leno and Johnny Carson. They've been on This America's, or Who's Got Talent, a show in the States. I think they've been on that twice. These guys throw knives and burning stuff and chainsaws. And they are a riot. It's a comedy show. It is awesome. Got to go to the show. Go to the show notes and check out all the links that we've put up there and all the videos they have. Of course, right now with COVID, they're not traveling around the world as they usually do performing. So they're doing it all from their studio in California. And so I guess that's probably where he spends most of his time because to do what these guys are doing has just, man, it takes Malcolm Gladwell's thing totally out.
They're way over 10,000 hours. It is remarkable what these guys do. Super fun. It was a riot. My daughter was just cracking up. At these guys. So we talk a lot about juggling. And he not only has a couple world records now in hang gliding, but he's got at least four more in juggling. I think that's what it's called. I didn't know that was a thing, but that's running while juggling. And he has, like I said, four world records. But just to put this in perspective, he was having a talk with Usain Bolt. And he's like, hey, man, so, yeah, I've got a record kind of like yours. And Usain's like, hold on, what are you talking about? And he said, well, yeah, I ran 100 meters. And I think it's 11.2 seconds while juggling three balls. And he's done 100 meters in just over 13 seconds.
This is all on the show. But I'm still just really excited about it while juggling five balls. So incredible, insane talent and a lot of fun. And really, you've got to go to the show notes and watch some of these videos. This guy is just super fun. And his partner. They're obviously having a really good time. They met in college. And they've been doing this their whole life. What a cool way to make a living. And you get to go hang gliding all the time. So enjoy this talk. I had a blast with this. I think Owen did as well. I think you're going to enjoy it. Cheers.
Owen, great to have you on the show. I was down in Texas. We had just gotten there a couple days before you absolutely sent it. I saw the news pop up in my Ooshpa and then cross country feed. 222 miles out and back in the Owens. A new out-and-back world record. Congratulations. That just looked fantastic. I mean, I'm a huge fan of the Sierras. Anything that happens in the Sierras is always just like, oh, yes.
Oh, man. Well, you are so kind. Let me just start by saying thank you for having me on your show. I am a huge fan. And I love what you're doing with Cloudbase Mayhem. And, yeah, you know, I'm still pinching myself about that flight. And it was a dream come true. And to date, my best flight for sure.
Yeah. And, I mean, I read the article. There were several about it. It sounds like this is something you've been chasing for a while.
Yeah, for six years. You know, I saw, I don't know, it would have been close to 15 years ago, I think. George Stebbins set the out-and-back world record in the Owens, 100 miles out and back. And that sort of captured my imagination and just went, my goodness, that is so, so cool. And then after that. And then after that, Tom Weissenberger beat that record down in Chile. And, you know, I just, I always thought it should be done in a thermal flying site in California. And, well, in a valley called the Owens Valley seemed appropriate, too. So, yeah, I've been working on it for six years.
And finally, I've just learned the place enough, studied the weather enough, had the right equipment. The right mindset and the right support team behind me. And, boy, it happened.
For those people who are listening who aren't familiar with the Owens, I mean, it's got that reputation. Like some places do. But describe flying there to folks who haven't flown in the Owens.
Well, it's just, you know, the lore of the Owens Valley has been around since, you know, the early 70s. It's different. It's a magical place. I think of it sort of being as like the mavericks of hang gliding locations. Just big air. And you just need to respect it. It's beautiful. And it can be challenging and a little terrifying. And the conditions can be so strong. But, my goodness, there's so much untapped potential there. And it's a place that. And, you know, hang glider pilots don't seem to visit much anymore. It seems to have sort of dropped off the mat for whatever reason.
But, goodness, it's a fabulous place to fly.
Well, it's great that pilots like yourselves and maybe some others are maybe getting back into it there. You know, I was down in Texas with Larry Tudor, which was incredibly special for me to hang out with him and hear all of his stories. And it used to be, like you said. You pull up to Waltz on a given day and it was packed.
Right. Yeah, there used to be. I mean, you watch the old footage of the place. You know, hundreds of pilots showing up on a weekend. Not even for comps. Just, hey, we're flying the Owens. And that was it. And, yeah, certainly Larry Tudor, you know, put the place on the map, especially using Waltz on the Sierra side. And, you know, it's. I'm thinking it's going to have a research. I certainly I start seeing paraglider flights happening from there and other launches, nine mile road. And you think, OK, this this could be a renaissance of the place. And I would love to see that happen.
Yeah. I mean, for us on our side of things, we went out and did that bivy across the Sierras up to the Oregon border in 2012. And just before that, I believe it was right around in that zone in 2011, 2012, Dave Turner. And started flying in the Sierras. And we were hearing all these stories about him flying there in the summer. And that just had been done in like a decade. It had been a long time since that was going down. And so it's it's great to see that Owens is back on the map. And we used to have world championships there and big comps.
Exactly. Yeah. And I think that can happen again. I, you know, when you talk about comps, I I'm a mountain pilot. I I gravitate towards, you know, my home. My home site is Crestline, California. And, you know, I'm just flying up and down the mountain ranges all all the time. And that sort of flying makes sense to me. I've done a couple of comps, you know, Big Spring and Florida and the flat. Honestly, the flatlands confuse me. I, you know, I fly the ground and the wind. And I know you got to fly the clouds. I go, what? All right. I guess. So I've got a lot to learn. But, man, I think there's some interest. And doing foot launch mountain flying comps again in recent years, they've done some in Dinosaur and they just had the Canadian Nationals.
I did that last year in Kamloops. And, you know, that's that's my type of flying. I I just really love that.
How did you get into all this absurdity and give us a time frame?
Yeah, I had my first tandem flight in 19. And it wasn't until 93 until I got my first hang glider. And, you know, it actually started off relatively slowly and played at different interests. And in 98, I tore my ACL playing basketball. And so that kind of sidelined. And it's like, you know what? This basketball stuff is it's just too dangerous contact sport. And I played pretty hard. And. So I just ended up focusing my attention more on hang gliding. And that's I got my hang for in 98 and just started doing cross country flying in 2000.
And just it just really captured me. I just really loved it. And, you know, just mostly spent my time flying between Elsinore, a little bit of Torrey Pines and Crestline and. Omar up in L.A. So local Southern California flying. But, yeah, then turn my attention to more XC related tasks. So every time I would fly cross Crestline, I'd try to go just go somewhere and mostly out and back. And I just I find those so civilized to be able to take off, fly for four or five hours, go as far as you can away.
And the chess game. How far out can I go and still make it back? Just really appealed to me. So every time I fly, that's my goal. And there's some really good big air to the east of Crestline that nobody really taps into. So, you know, when when people are getting six thousand seven thousand feet of Crestline, well, you're getting eleven, twelve, fourteen thousand over San Dragonia or San Jacinto. Mm hmm. And.
So that's kind of been my training ground. And I think that's prepared me a bit for the Owens Valley, too, because summer summer days can be pretty strong at Crestline.
So, yeah, I mean, when you say that Marshall Elsinore is kind of rowdy, is that more in the kind of spring? Because in the summer it gets quite stable. Is that when you move to the other side and start flying out into the Mojave and stuff and flying in the desert?
Yeah. Spring and fall are days where you can get up high enough to make the jump. Over the back summer gets. Yeah, you get high pressure and you get an inversion layer, but you can bust through that if you head east. And that's sort of something I've learned over the years that that the more you head east, the higher the mountains are. And and you can you can crack through the inversion layer and and bust out some good miles. Hmm.
You said I'm jumping around here a little bit, but you said on the day you had the record from Waltz and you did the out. And back, you kind of had the right everything aligned. But you also said you had the right mindset. Tell me about that.
Well, yeah. So I I've been looking for the right day and you're looking for a day where it's like variable at all elevations or as many as you can. And I was fortunate. I look at the solstice as being my marker, the summer solstice. You know, obviously you're looking for the longest day. And so 20 days before and after the solstice is where I'm really focusing on on the right day. And what's what's going to be. Likely to give me the opportunity to to set the out back. And I I'm friends with Rob McKenzie and he and I have talked about this extensively. And we we figure there's six days a year where where it actually is possible to do it. You know, I'm not I'm not a very aggressive pilot. I'm actually relatively conservative.
I think my strength is in endurance. I don't really have a problem flying for 10 hours. But it's also. I try to be, you know, as aggressive as I have to be to race because you're racing the sun. But I also try to make the smart, smart moves, be patient when I have to be patient and and and, you know, push when I have to push or am able to push. So, you know, I fly with oxygen, even though I, you know, well, the highest I got was over 17000 feet. But for the most part, I try to stay low and push above 200. You know, I noticed that day was pretty turbulent. And, you know, the Owens can can eat your lunch, man.
So why spend time climbing up through that mess when you can just just drive and just make short climbs and drive short climbs? And so and then climb to the top when you have to make a crossing. And so just try to be smart about it. You know, and I actually changed my tactic this year. And I think that was the reason for my success, too, is I in the previous years, I had been told that you don't want to go off the ends of the whites in the north past Boundary Peak just because there's no no good can come from that. And so I would launch waltz and head 15 point two miles south to Alantia. And that's where I would start my get
my first turn point. So then with that amount of distance, I could go north and just go to Boundary Peak as my. Turn point, just dab into Nevada for just because I thought it was amusing to. So I put my turn point in Nevada and turned around. But then coming back, you run into the Southerlies at the end of the day. And last year I was seven miles short after ten and a half hours in the air. And that was just a brutal decision to look at the numbers and see that I needed like 18 to one to make goal and into a headwind. And then to watch those numbers just go south and go. Oh, no. And to make the decision, you know, I was heading across the Owens Valley dry lake and, you know, the sun set behind the Sierras. And, you know, I've got 20 minutes to go.
And yeah, just to pull the pull it, you know, at the end, just going now it's it's I don't want to sit here all night for a long retrieve and and just make that decision was was pretty tough. But the numbers weren't looking right. And I thought, well, I'll try again next year. And that's kind of kind of it. So this year I just looked into the idea of starting at Walt's tagging a point at three ninety five and then turning back around, go back to Walt's and climb up and go north and go off the end, go off the end of Boundary Peak and across to the other side and see what was there. And I had never flown that area before, but I studied it for hours on Google Earth and just.
Watch XCSkies and see where the triggers likely were going to be. And, oh, goodness, it it couldn't have gone better. You know, I I got drilled going off the end and I thought, this is why people don't do this, you know, sustain two thousand feet per minute down and going, shoot, I'm an idiot. And and yet, you know, you're doing that at the middle of the day. And so you're going, OK, well, there's got to be something. And sure enough, rewarded with a seven hundred up on the other side and just. Got it and then got my turn point. And, you know, people were curious that, you know, you see my track log and you can find it online. You know, I didn't turn right around and head back to a boundary because the winds through there can just blow you straight into Nevada.
And you're and and it's. Yeah,
it's a real, real, real prominent Venturi through there.
Absolutely. And it reminds me a lot of the Cahom Pass and, you know, that crest line. So you go, OK, well, so I played. I played it west a bit and flew over Benton. And so I, you know, and I only lost a thousand feet coming back across to the whites, which, you know, I told Mike Meyer and Steve Pearson, you know, I I made about three good decisions and three poor decisions. I got lucky three times and unlucky three times. And none of the things I none of the bad things or poor choices I made, you know, cost me. Yeah, it really penalized me. And the good choices made up for those enough that that. Yeah, I will say, yes, I did get lucky, but I also made some good choices, too.
And that was one of them to head back to play the wins and get back established pretty quickly on the whites and keep going. So I
often think, you know, lucky, you know, we could say the same thing for Chrigel, you know, but there are pilots that create their own. They create their I mean, how can he get lucky that much? Right, right, right. So so he's created. I mean, it seems like with you six years in a sense of trying this and planning it and then identify it to me. It's all identifying the day. And you how far out did you were you looking at this day?
Well, that's the cool thing is I, you know, obviously I've been studied. I like I said, I studied the weather 20 days before, but I saw Friday the the 19th on Tuesday and I went, oh, that's. That's the day I saw that that, you know, three or four days out. And I called my buddy George Stebbins and said, hey, are you seeing what I'm seeing on Friday? And and he came back the next day and said, oh, yeah, I think, you know, and none of the days are ever perfect. You don't get a 10 out of a 10, but it was certainly an eight out of 10. And I thought that's all I need. And then the next day on Wednesday, I went, you know, often you see the day deteriorate or, you know, it's not what it used to be, but it held. And it looked like it still could be good.
And then on Thursday, I said, it's a go. And so, yeah, I drove up Thursday night and was prepared bright and early Friday morning. And were you
by yourself?
Yeah. Yeah. Actually, George Stebbins joined me that day. He was just going to do a free flight. So but yeah, he and I were the only pilots flying that day. And yeah, but. Man,
where were the paragliders? You know, to 18 grand. Sounds. Oh,
I expected to see some. Now, I did launch early at 941 in the morning. And but sure, I it was certainly launchable for paraglider pilots. I thought somebody's going to bust something good today.
Yeah. Well, let me ask you that. So earlier this year, I think it was kind of early June. There was a couple really good days, but downwinders, they wouldn't have been out and backs. And I agree with you 100 percent. There's nothing sexier than landing where you took off. That's just fantastic. But are guys like you and your crew and this kind of, you know, let's call it a little mini renaissance or maybe hopefully I hope that's what's happening. You know, those they had to bet Revis and those guys had two back to back days where they were launching nine mile. And those of you listening, I realize we're throwing along the terms that if you don't know the islands, that doesn't mean much to you. But the main launch is Waltz. It's on the Sierra side. You typically fly from there up to kind of near Bishop and then you cross over to the wall.
Which is the next range to the east. But nine mile is down further down south. So it's it can be a better start if you're just going one way because you can get a whole bunch of ground covered on the Sierra side and you cross, get a bit more ground covered on the whites and then you keep going. And so these guys are, you know, I think Revis did it had a couple of days where kind of in the low 300 K, your flight, 368 K in light and variable in and out back, which is much harder work than just winging out. And it off downwind, um, are, are you, are you flying those? Are you thinking about big days where you can connect with like the Toya bees and just keep going?
Absolutely. Yeah. So I've got my sights on that now. I, I mean, honestly, the out and back just has captured my imagination for years. And I, it's just, I think it's the second coolest hang gliding record you can get obviously behind the, the open distance, um, in my opinion, I just think there's. Sure. Something just really cool about saying, no, I started and that's, and specifically, actually, to be clear, I, I did get two world records that day. It was the declared out and back. And then they gave me the open cause it happened to be, uh, longer. My declared happened to be longer than the previous open. So that's pretty sweet. Yeah. Yeah. That is super sweet. Yeah. So, uh, uh, but yeah, just to be able to say, yeah, I'm going to go to this.
I'm going to take off here. I'm going to go. I'm going to go to this specific spot, this 400 meter radius circle. I'm going to tag it and then come back to where I started. So, but you know, yeah, to your, to your point. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's still big miles to be had out there. And on a day where you can get off waltz or, or an even nine mile for that matter. Yeah. I spent some time at night, my nine mile in the morning and go, yeah, this is launchable with a hang glider. I mean, it's a hike in obviously. But if you started there, then you get to run all those miles north and then get to waltz pretty early too, and just keep going. And so, yeah, there's some 300 plus miles out there to be had easy.
Well, not easy, but it's possible. Right.
It's, it's, it's there. I like how Will Gadd talks about this year is that it's just, it's one of the most complex environments you could possibly fly in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are others, but there, there, there are not many places that are more complex when you, in terms of just the micro stuff you're dealing with.
Absolutely. Yeah. You just
get. It's a very rowdy place. It's a
rowdy place and it changes. There's some, there's some patterns that show up that you can kind of anticipate, but you can kind of go, okay, what, what elevation am I going to be flying? What time of day? So you just XCSkies is a tool that you. I mean, we just didn't have that back, back in the day. And so to be able to just see these trends, these, these patterns emerge, you know, uh, I think again, the Owens Valley is untapped. We're, we're missing out on some big flights happening there. And I, I can't wait to see, uh, other people try it. And I think my plan is to just try to beat the record every year. Um, and I, I, I'm not done. I want to, it's, it's just pure joy.
For me out there. I, I just love it. Um, you know, I'm not too old. I'm 53 right now. And, uh, I've got some adventures left in me.
Yeah, you do. Let's let's transition temporarily here to, I think you have maybe the most interesting job I've ever heard of. Tell us how you make a living.
You know, this is goofy. I, as I mentioned, I, I, I honestly, I lead a charmed life. My, my, uh, my day. Day job, I, I work as a, uh, as a comedy juggler. So I work with another guy. We have a two man comedy juggling team. We tour the world, primarily the States, uh, and doing, doing our show. And, uh, my buddy John and I met in, uh, 86 at a juggling convention. And at the time, just in college and going, Hey, what are you doing after college? I don't know. What are you doing? Hey, let's throw a show together and, uh, see if we can do that. For a couple of years, and then we'll go get our real jobs. Well, that was 32 years ago. And, uh, within the first two years, we got on the tonight show with Johnny Carson twice.
Um, we were in the Adams family movie. If you saw that, there's a scene where Gomez and uncle Fester pull out these daggers and start throwing them back and forth. Um, that was us. We stunt doubled for Raul Julia. I was Gomez and John was Christopher Lloyd's part, uh, uncle Fester, uh, shortly after that. We did a Royal command performance for Prince Charles. We've, uh, performed at the white house. Uh, recently we did a couple of runs on the America's got talent. A lot of people might've seen us on that. Um, and we just, yeah, just last week we were on Penn and Teller's fool us. Um, so it's this crazy, crazy gig. We juggle chainsaws and stun guns and rat traps and, you know, ridiculous stuff.
Uh, the name of our show. We're called. We're called the passing zone. If you have a moment and want to be amused, go to passing zone.com and see, see all the ridiculous crap that we throw around. And, uh, but it's a joy. I get to make people laugh for a living and, um, I just feel as silly as juggling is to throw things up in the air and try to catch them. Uh, I'm bringing a small amount of joy into the world and that just feels great.
And have you guys been together? 32 years.
That's it. Yeah.
It's an incredible partnership. You
know, it really is. I'm so proud of our partnership. Uh, you know, 32 years together and, and still, and still enjoying it and, and, uh, appreciating every day.
How much training goes into this job? You
know, uh, a surprising amount. If you knew how many thousands are of hours are behind every routine that you see us do, you just go, you guys are insane. So just. We practiced every day. Uh, we practiced every day. We practice every day of the week, usually three to four hours a day. Uh, and a lot of that is, you know, honing our skills. Uh, but it's also developing new skills and new routines. Um, we have this, uh, warehouse space, uh, between our homes. Uh, John is up in, uh, Hermosa beach and I'm down in Tustin and orange County. And, uh, yeah, we have this spot, a warehouse space that we get together. It's our, we call it our clubhouse. And, uh, as you might imagine with the current pandemic, um, there's not, there's not a lot of call for live entertainment. Um, so.
Right. Our lives have in a way been put on hold our next gig. That's let's see. It's July now, uh, 2020. Um, our next gig isn't until February of 2021. So.
Which is also probably still a, maybe considering how things are going, right? Oh,
for sure. I think that one's a definite, a definite maybe. So we've had to pivot a bit. And so we've turned our warehouse space into a television studio. Effectively. It's it's a, we're doing live. Live stream shows, virtual shows from there. And our, our primary market is the corporate events market. So, um, yeah, we, uh, we stream out our show and we try to, you know, think of creative ways to get people involved. Um, you know, our, our show definitely is heavily, uh, audience interactive. Um, so we figure out a way to, uh, to, to get a mannequin and get a, uh, an iPad that we hang on the mannequin space. And then we FaceTime somebody on the zoom call and get them to hold their phones right up to their face.
And so all of a sudden now they're in our warehouse space and, you know, we can talk to them and interact with them and just tell them to hold really still. And, and, uh, they're really good at that.
Anyway, it's a way to, uh, to connect with people and try to break up their day. I mean, we're all just struggling with this. And trying to figure out ways to continue doing what we do best. And, and, and like I said, bring, bring a little joy.
Sure. Sure. Yeah. So you mentioned, you know, Johnny Carson and Penn and Teller and playing for the queen. What, tell me about the, is it, is it more stressful? How have you guys learned how to deal with that in terms of the pressure?
Well, sure. You know, people ask me, okay, do you get nervous before the show? And I just say, well, yeah. Every show I, you know, and there's nothing worse than being nervous and juggling. I mean, your skill level, especially doing live TV, goodness, doing America's got talent with, you know, 14 million people watching you. If you drop a chainsaw, you know, there's no recovery from that. I mean, there's, so that's
when you have to be really good at comedy.
Exactly. Well, that's the thing, you know, you, you, after years of working together with John, uh, we've just figured out ways to. To joke about it and, and make light of it. And, um, but yeah, nervousness to me just means I care. I want every show to be as good as it can possibly be. And, and so, but once you get going and the audience starts reacting and appreciating what you do and laughing, those go away and we feed off of that energy and we give it right back. And it's just, it's just awesome. And it's, it's interesting because there's this interesting parallel, I think, between hang gliding. Uh, paragliding as well. And, and, uh, and juggling. And that is, I think they're both really misunderstood.
You know, if your listeners are going to go, okay, he's a professional juggler. They imagine me and big floppy shoes and a red nose and a circus, you know, that sort of thing. But it's, it's not at all that. I mean, we, we kind of model ourselves a little bit off of like a pen and teller, um, you know, magicians who wear suits on stage and, and are, you know, very comedic. Dressed and stuff, but you know, and the hang gliding world, you know, you tell people you're a hang glider pilot or a car pilot and they just go, Oh, you're, you've got a death wish. You know, uh, you jump off a cliff and you, you fly down and they don't understand the beauty and the intricacies of the sport. And I just feel this need this, like almost a PSA to say, no, no, here's what it is.
You need to understand that we're finding thermals. We're staying in the air for hours. We're launching and landing. often when and where we want to. And it's, uh, it's a much different sport than it was in the seventies. And it was for that reason that I really wanted to do something to reach out to the public. And my, my airport is, um, I fly out all the time as John Wayne airport in orange County here. And so in, uh, 2000 and geez, I think it was 2008.
I created a hang gliding exhibit there. Um, and it actually is still there today. So if you go to the airport and look up, there are four hang gliders hanging from the ceiling above the baggage claims there. And it's a way of showing people because the, the preconception of what a hang glider looks like, it's the seventies, you know, bamboo, you know,
kind of a, kind of a kite. Yeah,
exactly. And this, you know, things strung together with duct tape, you know, whatever. So to see these carbon fiber, sexy wings that just look. astonishing and just the new fabrics that, you know, manufacturers are using now. I think it's just a way to show that, Hey, this is a sport that's matured and it is a real thing now. And, uh, so I I'm proud that that's still out there as a way to share the sport, even subconsciously with the public in general, as a way of telling them, Hey, we're not going to do this. We're going to do this. We're going to do this. We're going to do this. We're going to be, um, this is something that you should look into if it interests you.
Do you think that your juggling career and all the training you've done, has that impacted how you fly, how you approach flying, how, how you
train? Yeah. You know, most definitely. I, I am a huge believer. I mean, I just see it every day, what practice can do and prepared practice can do. And I spend hours working on juggling tricks. Some of them just for me, you know, things that will never be in the show because they're just too damn hard, but just focused practice and, and you get better and you try different things and you, you experiment and you, so I, I definitely think there's a, a nice crossover of skill sets between hang gliding and juggling and the way I look at it.
You also look like a really fit person. Is that, is that, um, do you, do you feel, like that plays a part in your ability to fly 10 hours and be cool?
Yeah. Well, there's, there's one, I tell people all the time, you don't often see an overweight juggler and that's primarily because they can't afford to eat. But, uh,
I
bet you put that in the show.
My favorite one is that what's the difference between a large pizza and a, and a juggler. That's just a large pizza can feed a family of four. Uh, but, uh, no, I mean, there's obviously a physical aspect to juggling and I think, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very active, uh, thing. And I think that has helped my ability to stay fit. And, and certainly the endurance of that has transitioned nicely over to, uh, being able to stay in the air for 10 hours. I, I, you know, at the end I was fresh. I was, you know, and had I been short again on the 19th, the 20th looked like it was flyable and I was just going, okay, if I'm short, I'm going again
tomorrow, I'll be back at it. And, uh, so I, yeah, that's, if I have a skillset, you know, I am, I hang out with Zippy. I hang out with, you know, some, you know, Johnny Duran, some of the best pilots in the world. And, uh, you know, they are, they are amazing at what they do. So if I have a skillset to me, I think it's, it's, uh, staying in the air for a long time and, and being all right with it. Um, so being patient, being patient and just, yeah, I'm not flying super fast. I'm just out there to beat the sun, not beat another pilot. Um, and, uh, yeah. And, and just try to be smart. You know, what I may be lacking skills. I try to make up, you know, I'm flying with oxygen, so I'm thinking clearly the whole time.
And, uh, you know, there's a lot of pilots, you know, you don't need oxygen. You're not going to be that high for that long, but, just that little edge to go, okay, I'm, I'm thinking clearly. That's super important.
Yeah. I mean, that's the cowboy side of no oxygen, I think has been long left behind, which is a good thing. We just, we know now what, that our brains don't function all that well when we're tall. So any little advantage we can get, it's a good thing.
Yeah. Um, um, I support that theory for sure.
Yeah. What, um, how has flying changed your life? You
know, it, it's, uh, you've been at this a while. I've been at this a while. Right. And it just, I think the community is, uh, it's just fabulous. I really seem to connect with pilots. You know, I, it may surprise many people, you know, you'll see me on stage and you go, oh my gosh, look how funny he is. Or look how relaxed I am an introvert. I'm honestly just a, uh, a person who recharges when I'm by myself. And, um, and hang gliding has, has, um, allowed me to do it. Now I really enjoy being social. I love the community, the juggling community and the hang gliding community. I, I thrive on, on that, but then I find I can only do that for a while, but it's just a beautiful gathering of people and, and personalities.
And I, I just, I consider my hang gliding. You know, group to be, to be my, the people I choose to be with and, and I enjoy it very much. So yeah, it's just, it's shaped so many of my, um, my desires, my, my passions, my dreams, things I want to achieve. And, uh, it just provides me an outlet that, that, uh, brings me peace and yeah, it's in the sky is where I want to be.
Hmm. Is that, is that, is it been like, from the beginning, have you had any kind of, uh, ups and downs or is, if you, I mean, you sound like you're uber passionate about it now, has it been like that kind of through your flying career?
You know, I think it really has been, you know, in the beginning, I, I didn't have the ability financially to, to pursue it as much as I wanted to. John and I were just getting started in our careers together. You know, we were on the road quite a bit in those beginning years. I didn't have that opportunity, but then the fact that performing sort of transitioned to more out and backs where I'd go to Vegas and then come back for three days and head to Orlando and then back for two days. And so I'd had, that's more the long outs, you know, doing two weeks on the road or three weeks on a cruise ship or something and tours that had me away from home seemed to sort of transition into one nighters. And, uh, that, that changed things for me too.
And the, and then it became, it became a little bit more lucrative when we were getting into the corporate market. So that allowed me to have the financial freedom to, to go explore and gliding some more. And, um, you know, I, I think I just love everything about, I hear people just talk about, Oh, you know, it takes me so long to set up my wing and so long to pack it up and head up the Hill and do this and that. And I think I love putting my wing up on my car. I love zipping that bag every time and creating this magical thing that comes out of this tube. Yeah. I just, I'm creating, it's just this little, my personal rocket ship that's carbon fiber and sexy and, and then flying it around for three, four or five hours and landing. And then I just, I love taking it apart and putting it back in its bag.
And I just, it just, I don't know. It's just, it's just seems, you know, not to get too existential. It's
all ridiculous and magical. It really is. You
know, we've been looking for 200,000 years. Man has been looking up in the air and wishing they could be a bird, wishing we could fly and soar. And it hasn't been until the last 50 years that that was even an option. So it's just, we are living in the future and it is a magical time to be alive. And I feel like I owe it to all of those humans, 200,000 years of humans to do this because they didn't get a chance to. And I do. And I just, I want to celebrate that and do that for them. And, and, you know, I know that sounds cheesy, but I do, I honestly feel that way.
It's, we are lucky. We are leading charmed lives to be able to do this. And I feel an obligation to educate people, to allow them to know that this is a possibility simply because I don't believe they understand it. So if they don't know what a thermal is and that a thermal, every day, the sun's out is out there to carry us up. And that's hard to wrap your mind around when you don't see it. So these track logs that we post these, you know, your social media, the things you're doing, Gavin, I mean, you are, you are changing the world one podcast at a time. And honestly, I, I, I truly believe this should share this joy with as many people as possible.
No, it's not for everyone. Now don't get, I don't say everyone should do this, but those who do should at least do it. And I, know about it. Right.
Yeah. We were having this discussion on the very long drive to Texas or coming back. I can't remember which one, but it's interesting. You know, I, I live in a place, I live in some Valley in Idaho, which is just filled with a Valley of go-getters like outdoor enthusiasts, you know, backcountry skiers and kayakers and, you know, hiking and fly fishing. And, you know, these are people that really get after it and they live there because they want to be outside. And. They all know. I mean, I, lots of these people are very, my very good friends and they know what I do and they don't want to do it. It's really interesting. How can you not want to do this? And
again, I, that, that baffles me because it is so glorious. Uh, I have become friends with Penn Gillette, uh, Penn and Teller, and, and he has been, he had been talking for years about wanting to fly with me. And I said, dude, you, you need to do it. And he weighed 300, 132 pounds a few years back. Um, he lost a hundred pounds. So he got down to 232 and he's still around there today. So a couple of years ago, I took him with me and we did a tandem flight together and he just dug it. He's done a whole podcast on it. And it was, I had him do a little magic trick up there, pull out a car. And, uh, we had a drone following us.
So there's some great footage of that and, uh, you know, it's—it's just one of those things for people who want to do it. I'd love that we can make it accessible to them, but you're right, for some people, it's just not their thing and I—I get it. You know, it's not, yeah, not for everyone and I don't, you know, they don't need to to do it because I think, you know, it's awesome, but, uh, right.
Yeah, yeah, well, you, you, so you have the declared record and the out and back record, and then right before we started recording, you've got like six other world records. You've got more world records than anybody, man. So, are these all in in jog joggling, what is it called? Yeah,
So okay, this is about as ridiculous as it can get. There's something, there is a sport out there called joggling, and it's spelled J-O-G-G-L-I-N-G. So do amuse yourself and type you in joggling into a Google search, and you're going to see a picture of me joggling with five balls that was actually, uh, in the front page of the Guinness Book of World Records. Um, it's, it's a, as, as it might, it's juggling and running, or jogging, uh, at the same time. So I have the world record for, uh, 100 meters five ball juggling, um, and three, uh, three ball joggling, um, for 100 meters. Now this is, this is a fun story. I was, uh, lucky enough to do a show with, uh, Usain Bolt last year.
Wow, yeah. So it was cool. We were doing a gig in Mexico City, and he was on the same bill, and I approached him afterwards, and I said, "Hey man, um, good to meet you. We have something in common." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah man, what's that?" And I said, "Well, we both hold the world record for 100 meters." "What you talking about, man?" And I, so i go
Come on, let's go man toe-to-toe, but I said
You know, I, uh, I have, I hold the world record for running 100 meters and juggling at the same time, and he goes, "No, how fast you do it?" I go, "How fast you think I did?" He goes, "Uh, I don't know, uh, 15 seconds." I go, "11.6." He goes, "No, man, you"
You did an 11.6 seconds 11
6, so I used to be on the dude. I know it, it doesn't slow you down too much, uh, so I'm a decathlete in college, and so I was a runner before a juggler or a pilot, so
Holy cow, is there video of this? I gotta see the video of this.
Yeah, it's—it's, uh, you know, do a search, you do a YouTube search, and you'll find some crazy TV shows, say...
like 25 or something that is, you're fast and
then with five balls, it's like 13.8, something like that. So it's, oh my god,
that's crazy it's
Crazy, so that's those are, I mean that, that's another example of the like, the most ridiculous world record one can have is in a called juggling. Now there was another, uh, I also happen to hold the world record for, uh, chainsaw juggling, most catches with another person, and, uh, the most, the record I'm most proud of, that we no longer have, but we, uh, John and I set the world record for, uh, club passing back in '93. Uh, we were the first humans to pass 11 clubs back and forth, so those are the bowling pin shaped things. So we, uh, there's some Russians that had the record for many years and at 10, and we were the first to achieve 11 club passing between two people, and that, that held for about a decade, maybe a little longer, and then, uh, some more Russians came and took that from us, well
What kind of training would you have to do to get it back? How many hours went into that 93 record? Oh,
Again, thousands of hours, yeah. When you just think of, you know, all the prep and all the training and stuff, yeah. Uh, so there are not enough hours, uh, left in my life to allow me to beat to get it back, to get it back, yeah. We're noticing our age, that our reflexes aren't what they used to be, and, uh, um, for technical reasons, I, I won't go into the details of it, but there's a new method for passing clubs that, uh, um, that will bore your listeners, um, but just say it's, it's a little bit like if John and I are playing tennis with wood rackets and everybody else is playing with the, okay, so
Gotcha. And, and I know this is a flying show, but this is just so fascinating. So, I used to run hot, or used to run chains on a hot shot crew. Are you, are you throwing real chainsaws, so...
That's the deal. Um, full disclosure, yes, we are throwing real chainsaws now. I have ground down the teeth on the chain; that's the other thing. I run them, uh, idle, idled up, so those chains are spinning as we're juggling them, uh, so
There's fuel in them and everything, oh.
Yeah, yeah, awful. And they're loud, and they're, um, yeah, they're the worst, but it's what people want to see, and so we're there to give it to
carnage yeah
oh we
love our carnage, that must have been after a particularly bad night at drinking that you guys came up with that
idea. Well, the funny thing is, it's the audience, you know? You can't help, you get hecklers. Oh, juggle chainsaws, and you're like, "Oh, good grief, yeah, okay, yeah." You, um, but you know, it's one of those things where after a while you just go, "That's what they want." That's, and so you go, "Okay, well, how do we do this in a way that's actually worthwhile?" So, John and I try to find the funny in everything we do on stage, and one of the things we thought was, "What about the juxtaposition between the idea of these manly, mean, awful chainsaws and ballet?"
So we got ourselves some purple tights and Husqvarna's, and we started working on a piece called the chainsaw ballet. So we juggle chainsaws and dance around the stage and throw these roaring things back and forth as we're dancing around and prancing and being goofy, so it's hilarious, hilarious, and dangerous and ridiculous, and it's my job.
What an awesome job. Do you come up with— so especially during— this whole, you know, coronavirus situation, it was I, I don't come up with very good ideas unless I'm out doing stuff, you know? So I, I do a lot of writing, and you know, if I get, what you know, my version of a writer's block or something, you usually a bike ride or a walk or something will help that. Where do your ideas come from? Or they do? You get them from when you're flying? Do you get them when? How do you guys keep creative after 32 years? You
know, that's that's a very good question, and that ends up being sort of the most important part of our job is coming up with new things, and we're inspired by so many different areas. One of the nice things about flying is I don't think about juggling while I'm flying, I don't anything but flying, so that it becomes a nice escape for me. But you know, John and I sit, that's perhaps the most important part of us getting together every day is the part where we're not throwing things back and forth, but we're just talking. We have a section in our warehouse space where we sit and we talk about what we saw on YouTube that day, or what we saw, you know, what's in the news, what, how to be topical, how do we change, you know? Because juggling, honestly, by itself, I mean, like I said, we have world records in juggling because we're, you know, we spent so much time trying to be the best in the world at it, but nobody cares.
Nobody cares whether we're juggling seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven clubs back and forth, it just doesn't matter. What they want is a connection with us and our show and our senses of humor, and they want an insight into who we are as people and what we are as a team and how that works. And so, you know, uh, recently we, we sometimes just try to combine goofy skills, like I've learned how to throw knives, um, and John's learned how to juggle upside down, and so we created this piece recently where he's All right, this guy's not just... follow me here. Uh, take, take a moment. Uh, so John juggles upside down on a swinging pendulum back and forth. So he's hanging by his ankles with gravity boots, swinging back and forth.
I stand, uh, on one side of him as he's swinging back and forth in front of me, with the target on the other side of him. So as
You're hucking knives across his plane, exactly.
Right, and I'm blindfolded, so he's got to tell me, yeah? And so we thought, well, this is cool, but it's not audience participation, so we thought, hey, let's get somebody from the audience and join him on the pendulum. So now we get a female volunteer that stands next to him, swinging back and forth, so she's going through the path of the knives. We thought, okay, he'll tell me, and I've got a target with a balloon on it on the other side of both of them, and so he'll tell me when to throw in order to save his own life. And I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm going to throw!" And he's like, "Oh my god, I'm going to throw!" And I'm going to lie, and we tell her, "You tell me where to throw in order to pop that balloon." And then that balloon happens to be attached to a trigger mechanism that launches a pie into another volunteer's face.
So this is just ridiculous, so clearly we have a lot of free time on our hands, I think that's what we're discovering here. Uh, so you know, if I could pop it with an... so I, you know, he gets swinging, he's going now, and I throw a knife, she's like, "Higher!" And then now, so back and forth, and finally, uh, pop the balloon, and the pie gets launched in the face, and we're all happy. It all ends, well, what
An awesome job, you guys just get to sit around and fart around all day and have fun. That
Is it? I get to go, I...
realize it's not farting around; you're obviously training, but it's just what a great, I mean, and creative it's
It is an amazing thing in a beautiful country where one can make a living as a professional juggler and get away with it, yeah.
You guys are winning, for sure. You're winning, okay? I just to because it is a flying show, I'll bring it back with just one, one question, and I just, I really appreciate your time. This has been a blast. Um, if you could, you've heard the show, you've heard me ask this a million times, if you could rewind the clock, sounds like to maybe 90, maybe 93, is it? You learned in 90, did a tandem, but you know, kind of think back to your 50-hour self, what would you change? What, what advice would you wish you've gotten, or anything, anything you would have done differently? You
know, I, I just have to thank those who, who brought this sport into my life: Joe Greblo, Andy Beam, Rob McKenzie. Those instructors, they, they have changed my life, honestly. And I, I have appreciated hang gliding from every step of the way, from those very first flights that where you're just getting a foot off the ground for 10 minutes, and I'm like, I'm, how magical is that? I mean, honestly, uh, I have it was, it's been a slow progression. Maybe I would have chosen to try to figure out a way to do it faster, but you know what? I, I've appreciated the journey the whole way. And, and honestly, like I said, I'm leading a charmed life, and I just want to share that with, give, hopefully, give that to people who haven't discovered it yet, so
They can do the same if that, if that appeals to them, well.
It sounds like you've got a lot of gratitude, and that's about the most important thing there is. So keep, keep entertaining. This is, uh, just, what, what a fun talk! And congratulations on this amazing flight and achievement, and like, and hopefully that's just the, the first of many, and can't wait to share some, some sky with you, oh, soon. So that would be, that would be great. I'm sure our paths will cross a lot of times, and if they haven't already, we were thinking they maybe had out in Marshall someday. But another ex-alps is coming up next year, so I'll be out in your neck of the woods training this, this winter. And, but, uh, all the bestio, and, and thank you so much for, for sharing this, this crazy, uh, these crazy years of yours with us.
Gavin, thank you so much, brother. I, I again, I'm honored to be with you today and, uh, keep doing what you're doing. It, it's really needed and appreciated and, uh, cheers, cheers.
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