Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud-Based Mayhem. By the time this episode drops, we recorded this on the 22nd of March, Sunday, with Charles Cazot. He is over in France in lockdown, and I am here in Ketchum, Idaho, in lockdown. And by lockdown on this end, I mean, you know, we can go outside and stuff, but, you know, basically everything is closed, and they don't, you know, we have to respect social distancing, and we can go get food and stuff. So it's not totally extreme. But I wanted to tap in with Charles because they can't fly currently right now in France and Belgium and Italy and other places. And there's certainly a very interesting conversation going on here about that. And by the time we put out the show, I will have put out the show that I did with my sister and my good friend Terry O 'Connor, who's an ER doctor here.
They're really on the front lines of all of this. And so I think we'll have probably... We'll not be flying here either. And it doesn't sound like that's a smart thing to do. And potentially, if you had an accident, then overwhelm an already overwhelmed system. But anyway, I want to apologize that we probably didn't sound very current in terms of where the world most likely stands now, several weeks later. But this episode is with Charles Cazot. He's been flying for more than 25 years. He was the first kind of junior.
They have a junior training, professional training program in France that you can come up through to become a professional pilot and be paid and coached in that process. And so this is something that's pretty foreign for most other pilots in the world. But a very cool program that people like Charles and Maxime Pinot and others have come up through, honor and have come up through. So he was the first with this. He got on the team in 1995 when he was 18. He was 18 years old and then made the French team in 2000. He's been on it ever since. So almost 20 years with the French team. So I wanted to just talk to him about what they're teaching and what he's learned over the years and how to fly faster in comps and strategy and tactics and all that kind of stuff.
And mental, the mental side of the sport, which is, of course, huge. And then also we talked quite a bit about what he and Seiko have been teaching at their school the last three years. And SIV and specifically SIV on two liners and pretty hot wings. So great talk. It was great to speak with Charles again. I hadn't flown with him in a while or talked to him in a while. So enjoy.
Charles, awesome to have you on the Mayhem. I've been wanting to talk to you a long time. I was trying to think about it this morning when the last time we saw each other was. I know we flew together. And Shalan, a few years back. I feel like I've seen you since then. But as always, it's always too long. But thanks for coming on the show. I understand, like I do right now, you have a lot of time in this time of Corona.
Yeah, thanks, Gavin, to bring me to the show. Yeah, I think the last time we met maybe was in Colombia for a competition there. That's right. All right. We have quite a lot of time actually at home with the Corona issue. And I'm not one of. I'm not the guy walking because the office closed. So now we are waiting the stuff going on and give all our energy to the people who are informed fighting with these virus.
Yeah, it is really an unprecedented time. I just did a podcast last night with my sister. You know, she's not a pilot, but she's the health and science reporter for KQED, which is our kind of NPR station out in San Francisco. And so she's been on the front lines reporting on this really since it came across. From China, because it first came to San Francisco from China. And it's just, man, it's just incredible watching the numbers and the escalation of this. And then, of course, you know, you guys were the first to get shut down, I believe. Right. You know, France, Belgium, Italy, you know, the shutdown.
It wasn't the worst. It was the first. It was. It started quite badly before the Superfinal, actually. And so it's why nobody decided to go to Brazil. And now it's quite bad in Italy. And we know it will happen to France and the other country from Europe and then the rest of the world. So we just try to understand what's going on and to be ready and to face it and then to go ahead. Yeah. And what is your work? Actually, I'm working in a mobile phone company, Orange. And I have this deal with the ministry and the company. So they allow me to train and comp half of the year. Yeah. Mainly like autumn and winter in the office and spring and summer. I can compete, train and teach with Seiko in our school.
This is a great place to start. So I can't remember who it was that I spoke to about this. When you're on the French team, you can get paid to fly, correct? You can work for Orange and then they have a system where you're allowed to fly for, is that a certain amount of time or something? How does that work?
Yeah, we have a system. If you are in some of the big companies like the train station or like mine, Orange, in fact, the company, they earn some taxes on the time you are not at work. So it's good for the company and it's good for the athletes. And it's quite helpful then to, especially for paragliding pilots, it's quite helpful to have time to get the money and to go to competition and train. For sure. You need to find a sponsor to support your budget for competition. But, you know, when you go to competition, you don't need to focus on, say, oh, it's good weather. Maybe if I'm at work, I can make some tandem. But it's not the case. I know when I'm in competition, I can focus on competition.
And the only fact is you have to stay in the top 12 FI ranking. So it's a bit of pressure.
Ah, okay. So how many French pilots right now are in your competition? What's your situation where they can work and fly but be supported to fly?
So in the big company, I think I'm the last one. And then some other like Honorin in Ozone, Pierre-Emy in Nervure, they have a little support from the local government for it. So they don't have the same amount of time as me, but they still have some weeks to do it, which is quite nice. And I think the other one, yeah. So they don't get the same support. So for sure, if you are in the top level ranking and you're in a big company, it's quite helpful. You make a long career.
Is it all decided on ranking?
Yes, because in fact, the mystery spot on the first October, if you're in the top 12, then you can apply for it. If you are 13, you cannot.
Wow, that is pretty tight. So take me to the... As I understand, you were the first person in kind of this juniors program, which has now become a thing. You know, Maxime came up through it, Maxime Pinot, who did really well in the X-Ops last time. And obviously another really good competition pilot, I think Honorin did. But what is it? And can you explain? You know, because this is something completely foreign, I think, to most other countries.
Yeah, this project started in, as I remember, it was 95. And I was one of the seven children to enter this system. And it's based in Font-Romeu. Font-Romeu is quite well known in France because it was an area to prepare the athletes for the Olympic Games in Mexico. And it's on a high level plateau, 1,500 meters. So it's good to get some oxygen to be prepared for long racing. So it's why they organized this school there. So you have like, I don't know, 10 or 20 different sports. Coming here to train. You have athletes from all Europe coming on certain time of the year to train. And they decide to make this pool of training for the pilot there.
So actually you have some kids from, some kids that are like from 13 to 18. On the year they start, I was 18. So it was like, I entered only for one year. I knew it when I entered. But it was a great year because we have. Some coach like Didier Higga, which was a French team pilot years ago. And some other coach around. And we learned a lot because when I entered this school, you know, I never did a flight bigger than maybe 15K. And when I exit from the school, I went back to St-Hilaire, which was close to my own place. On the next thing, I was able to fly 150, 160 for my first cross country in the Alps. So it was really interesting.
The way they learn us, just know you mainly learn about the process. And then when you have the condition and you're ready, you just go.
Tell me more about the process.
So we learn, we say step by step first, like handling on the ground to be on full control of our wing. When we did some SIV because the idea was to not to let us fly as far as possible, but first to be in control of our jet. And to be in control of our skill, to be more and more skills. And then we went step by step. So I would say we really learned to climb. So dynamic or in a thermal activity to be more efficient in thermal, to be more aware about our sensation. And then step slowly and slowly we go from thermal to another thermal. And after each flight, we have like debriefing for some time during one hour.
We are briefing before the flight. Everything was. Organized so we can understand what we do in the air to make it better for the next flight. And then I keep this process for myself when I came back in the Alps after the school. And I just add some more experience, some more skills, some more knowledge to be better and better. Yeah.
To improve. Yeah. Progress. Progress. Did you. Is the goal of the school. So when you get into this program and you're identified, do you. Do you actually. I should ask that. Do you sign up for this school or are you picked?
I sign up for the school because I really want to go there. But there is a selection. So I think we were like 20 or 30 and there were only seven place the first year. So they don't make a selection only based on the level of the pilot. They. They were also, I would say, first aware about the school level because they don't want people to be focused too much on piloting. They want us to have a good level of school so we can have free time to fly. And they know some pilots who are in the Alps, maybe with their parents already flying. They have some kind of advantage. And I was coming from the flat.
I was alone to fly. Nobody in my family. We're flying. So maybe we say, okay, maybe this guy, we can help a little bit if we put him in the system. And from my past experience, I was, uh, I was climbing, I was running, I make, I was making football, a lot of activity that was always trying to go ahead and to push for my, uh, my skills. So I think they feel it when they ask the question and they say, Oh, maybe this guy, you have some potential to. To, to improve a lot. And the idea was not to push all. As to the competition. I know, uh, when I started piloting, I didn't want to go to competition competition. Finally just become a, a tool to progress, to know some more, to learn from different pilots, but I didn't want to go to competition.
See, I want to go to cross country.
Ah, so when you sign up for the program, it's not the goal of the program. Isn't to create necessarily race pilots. It's just to create good pilots.
Yeah. The first year, it was more about, uh, yeah, creating good pilot and then the level. Uh, yeah. After you're in pool. And I will say when they have to make the solution selection, then they select quite a good level of pilot on this pilot. After three years in this school, we have the what cut what cup level pilots, which was crazy because you have some, uh, teenager, they came, maybe the biggest five. They did was 30 K. And they learn year after year to. Yeah. To, uh, to improve the skills, to learn about the Emma's to learn about the tactics. And after three years, they are, they are able to be in the top, uh, top 20 of some task in what cup. So this was really interesting and, uh, they did quite a good job.
Yeah.
When I spoke with Maxine a couple months ago about his books and I understand he's done some, some coaching for the French team as well. He talked about kind of these four categories, uh, that you have to focus on. Yeah. Things to consider for learning and becoming a good pilot. You know, there's the technical side, climbing, gliding. Uh, there's the tactical side, you know, your decision-making and then there's the, the mental side is what is the big one. I forget what the fourth one is now, but the, the, the mental one was the one that he said was just. By far and away, you know, the, with the tech at the high levels, you know, the Superfinal levels, you know, pretty much everybody's a pretty good climber and a pretty good glider and pretty much. which tactics are quite similar, stay in the lead gaggle until the end, try to make a break.
There's not a huge difference there. The huge difference is really in the mental. Is that something that the school you went to really focused on as well?
Yeah, for sure. I think we learned more about mental when I leave the school. Then I have the chance to enter the French team, and then we get some input about the mental and how it will change our performance. Because as you say, in the level of the top pilots, if we're getting the skills, everybody is able to push full speed. Everybody can climb good. Then you have some pilots climbing more or less. And now I would say the difference is more about how you see the performance. How you see the air mass, and also from the mental view, how you're able to do the right thing at the right moment.
Because most of us, we know what to do. But to do it at the right moment, to have the right training during all the tasks, all the competition, which is quite demanding and not so easy. Even me, some competition I'm really in, and some I will not so-so or completely out. This is the hard part of paragliding. Mental part. What
do you attribute that to? All these years of competing. Well, let me ask you the other question first. So you started the school in 95. What was the first year you made the French team?
I entered the French team in 2000. Wow. I did two World Cup in 1998. It was Mucy and Chamonix. In 2000, I entered the French team. Until now. Wow. Yeah. And yeah, so I see like... You've been on the French
team every year since 1998? Yeah, exactly. Every year. Holy moly.
In the French team, we had like a pool of, I would say 20, 30 pilots at the beginning. And now we are like maybe less than 10. Because, yeah, the things change and the budgets change and the way it's organized a little bit different. And yeah, in 2000, you can see like the wing changing. You can see the tactics changing. You can see everything was more demanding for the pilot to be at the top level. I see, yeah, the wing was a really big change when the two-liner arrived. And then I think the big change after the two-liner is that most of the pilots, they were able to have a really good wing.
And then the tactics become more and more important. And in the competition.
So you mentioned something that I think a lot of pilots, including myself, really struggle with. There are times when you're just in it. And I call that kind of being in the flow. And then there's times where you're just not. Have you been able to isolate and drill down on that and figure out better ways to be in it?
I would say, yes. You see some moment or some part of the task, you say, ah, I'm not in. And then you try to understand what's going on with your mind. And most of the time when you want to make the results too fast and you don't have the process to focus on what you have to do at a certain moment of the task, like you are terming, you have to be focused on your feeling. And like each turn of the terminal, I know I have to focus on one, on the meteo, on the pilot, on me. And if you are too focused, I will miss the gurgle. I will miss the result. If you are too focused on the results part, then for sure everything you trained for before and you organized to make a good performance,
then it starts to be destroyed because your mind is not in the action. It's too far away.
Are there things, are there things that you've learned over the years, you know, say mantras or something you're writing on your instruments or are there clues that you can, you've been able to grasp onto and resolve that, you know, in flight? Hey, Charles, come back or Charles, you're thinking too much. I got to let my subconscious do more work. Are there things that you've kind of learned or codified to help that?
I work with Thomas Torreira, which is a mental coach of several pilots, including Chrigel. And yes, the last two years I was working with him and I was flying with a fly now, writing on my instrument. And just remember, okay, you are in the air. You have to be focused on what you do now and be efficient now. No, just to be in the game, not already at the goal. Or thinking what will be the consequences of my results. For example, for my deal with the mystery, with my company, with the result at the end of the year, just, okay, you are in the race.
You are at this moment of the task. You are in this situation. What you have to do to be efficient now and focus on it, nothing else.
Can you... What was the main thing you went to Thomas for and what advice did he give to you to solve that?
The main thing for me was really the pressure. I have to deal with the... with the... with the piloting involved in my job. With the deal in the company. So in some way, the first year was really complicated to deal with. Because you have like three good results. You have to make one comp with very good results. And even you are not on the flying area, you are not in the task, your mind is not there. So it helped me to refocus on the piloting side when I'm in competition and to relax from this contract with my company.
Because on one way, it's a really good... It's a nice Denali have. But it cannot work if I'm not focused on competition. I have to be able to go to competition, to keep my pleasure to fly. And yeah, to enjoy the process to compete. And not to do only this for... I would say for my deal with the company. Yeah. It's a very special place. I would say I don't know if some... There is not so many pilots, I think, who have this kind of deal. No. And on one way, super nice deal. On another way, yeah, it can give a little bit stress. But now I think I have the deal with for 10 years. So I learned to live with it. It's a privilege. So I have to face it.
No problem.
I would imagine that in some ways, the silver lining of it... I mean, there's lots of silver linings there. But I would imagine one of the main silver linings of that kind of situation is it probably keeps you really motivated to fly. Do you think you'd have the same motivation without it?
In fact, I don't need the same motivation to fly because I love so much flying. I just need to go and fly. I know some... I have some friend who we go for competition. And when we go for a flight, they go to train for one, two hours. And they don't like to stay at the same place during their flight. So, okay, they make their two hours training. And they know they want to make a result in competition. But for me, if I spend like five hours in the same thermal, I don't care because I just love to be in the air, you know? And I come to piloting because I was coming from mountain, from climbing. I first want to use piloting to go down. Then I realize I can climb and I can move from one mountain to one other mountain only with the piloter.
And I know even if I don't... I'm not competing. I can go and make cross country for hours. I just love to fly.
Back to Thomas, how did he help you to relax and to distance yourself from the pressure?
It was mainly this work we did. We find the words which are linked to some image or some feeling, which bring me back to... to the present. Not to the future or the past, but really, okay, I see this world in front of me. I know what this world means. The feeling linked to this world. And then I connect. I switch to present mode, not to move my mind somewhere else. Yes.
Will you keep working with him or is that done?
No, we are keep working. We are keep working together. Okay. Wow.
What do you like most about flying? Is it the competitions? Is it the working with Seiko and instructing? Is it just flying?
As I said, I love flying. So I was used to spend like four hours, four or 50, 400 hours in the year sometimes. That's a lot. When I was a student, it was like this, 400 hours in the year during the year. Now it's more, it's less. I think it's like 200 hours. And I feel now, obviously in the past, I needed to fly a lot. To, to so, it's a different situation. With the terrain, with the air mass. I know I feel if I fly 150, 200 hours, it's quite a lot in the year. And I feel comfortable with this amount of hours.
And, I'm more hungry when I go to competition. Because if I fly too much, it's still tough to be kind of routine. But if I fly not so much, then I really want to be in the air. And for me, it's more efficient than for the comp. And, yeah, I like to fly cross country because I came from cross country part before to go to competition. I like to discover, to take my own decision. I like to fly alone. It's a bit egoist, but it's, one part of the flight I like. And, also the side we, we start with Seiko, with the school. I like a lot. I like to share the knowledge with the, with the students who are coming. I start to give them feedback, information,
help them to, to progress. Always to, to keep the safety part in mind. And, I always say, you will be a good pilot if you are a pilot, you know. And, years after years, we all realize it's just true. And, I really push all pilots. So, what's, whatever the level they are, just go to SIV to train your skills. And they, they tell me, ah, but you know, I did it five years ago. I'm a good pilot. I say, I don't care. You just go, you show. And, and then you come back, you know, it's like, you, you send your car to the garage every year to, to check if you're doing well. Yeah. And it's the same for the pilot. You have to go with your wing to, to, to learn, to improve your skills.
And just to become better. You cannot just stay in your chair and say, okay, are you honest? I'm a good pilot. I can, good pilot. I can fly 100. I can fly 200 K. Say, okay, you fly, you fly good. You understand what's going on in the air. But you have to be a pilot under your wing. And, you have to know how you will react in every situation. You have to learn, how you wing, your new wing is, you will react as well. So, Seiko is really the coach for the SIV. And for me, she's amazing because I think she's the only one who's a compilot in a cross country. She was a compilot in ACRO. She is test pilot instructor.
She has a really good overview of what's going on with the wing and how the, the pilot, pilot, they,! they react. And for me, it's really interesting. I learned a lot from her on the, how she, she train, how she focus on the, on flying. It's really interesting.
Yeah. I think you guys really broke terrific ground with what you're doing there at the school and sharing these videos. Cause I, I always think back to Russ Ogden, gave a terrific talk here in Sun Valley right after the world cup in 2012. And he obviously knows a lot about wing design. And back then he was still recommending, which I know he's changed his mind on now, but he, you know, he was still recommending that it wasn't really a good idea to do SIV on, you know, on our comp wings, you know, so back there, back then open class wings and now serial class wings, but you know, the, you know, the hotter end of the scale, two liners, you know, that that was just,
you should still do SIV on a lower level wing because if they went, you know, they, they, they were very hard to recover. And you guys have shown, I mean, and also wings have changed and, you know, the CCC classes is definitely tamped down on, you know, say an, an R11, but you know, you guys have shown that, you know, you really should do it and you should do it frequently. And, you know, if done well, that you can do it safely.
Yeah. And when we have a comp pilot coming, for example, with the CCC wing, and if he tells us, it's my first SIV, it's happened, you know, it will be my first all ever. Yeah, it's happened. It's a, you know, my first all I did it after 10 years of flying. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was playing a cross comp wing for long. Wow. It was not, I would say,
it was not in the move at this time when I was playing, I was playing like a prototype, everything. I never did stall before. And then when I entered the French team, they say, okay, no, you want to go for competition. You have to pass, to pass by as a SIV course. So then we go to SIV. My first SIV was, was with, I don't remember. So with the prototype from, from, from advanced or now with a APCO. No, I was with this kind of prototype there and they say, okay, now you go for a SIV, go for stall with a full speed collapse. And then if I think to this with more years of expand, I say, but we were crazy to go like for the SIV like this.
I know our student, if they come with a no experience in SIV, even they are flying competition wing, we told them, okay, you are better to come with a lower level wing. Because it would be more easy to get the, to learn the skills, to learn the tools, to see your action. And then when you manage the situation, well, you have the, you, you under where you as a, the tools to recover. So different tools, then, okay, you move to your CCC wing. And then you just adapt, adapt your skills to this wing. Otherwise it's too much thing moving and there is too much stress for the pilot. So this is for me, this is just normal. So it's why we, we go step by step. No, we just, we just, I did not to make a,
say a, a circus, a Disney, Disneyland tour. You know, we, we said to the, to the students, we don't, you don't pay on the come to, to have a, I would say, fun. You come to learn. And when you go back home, you have to, to some tools in your baggage, some tool you, you can make only over the water. Some, and some tool you master, we, you can try at them and improve because some tool, you, even if you try in VR, if you don't master you, you will just go in worse situation. So it's better. You learn some tool, which, you know, you learn some situation, you have some experience, and then, you know, when you will be able to handle or not. And when we, you will need to use your rescue or not.
Yeah. It seems like to me, that's almost the most important thing that SIV teaches you is, I mean, it's all important, but the, the big one is what situation am I in right now? And how long is this going to take to fix? Because then, then, you know, if you should throw and it's, I think a lot of people, well, we know this, a lot of people hit the ground because they try to fix it too long.
Exactly. Or they don't have the right tools for the situation, or they don't know the tools. And sometimes if you have the tools and you know it, you know, it's like in the air, you know, in which situation of the task you are, you know what you have to do in this moment. And you will not think to go full speed if you need to climb. And the same, when you have something going on with your wing and SIV, you will use the right tool at the right moment. And it's, it's moves the situation. And then it's more easy to, to recover for sure. Some situation, maybe you cannot recover because it's too complicated for you, for your wing or your level. So the rescue is maybe the only issue, but at least you think to use a rescue because we have some pilot going in the water. Sometime even don't think to use the rescue, the rescue is a coach.
Don't tell them rescue rescue, you know?
Wow. Yeah. How often should people do SIV?
I would say if you are able to do one buyer, it's just amazing. If you can do, I'd say one every two years, especially when you change your wing and often the pilot, they say, ah, I come to SIV with my old wing because I will change the next, next week. And I don't want to make a SIV with the new wing. I say, so why you come, you are better. You come with your new wing, you know, or both wing. So you can show what you do and you can do it again with the new wing because the new wing will have different behavior. So better to know how it will be react. And then you are prepared for the whole season. For the next two years,
understand they don't want to damage the wing. Usually you don't, you don't damage your wing. Apart if you have like a comp wing with very thin line, it's quite okay.
One of the things that I've been practicing quite a bit since watching your videos is the whole kind of double knock, you know, so you, you, you know, you get it almost a stall, let it go again. And then you've started, you know, this is very much an acro full stall. It's not, you know, just stall it and keep your hands down. It's real quick and you let it fly again. And you know, from your videos, you only lose very minimal height, you know, 15 meters kind of thing. But I, and it works fantastic. It's just, it's just terrific. The way Seiko works through that in her videos. And I encourage all you who are listening that if you haven't seen these, go check them out. They all have all the links in the show notes for this. But Charles, I've always struggled with the, the, even the thought of doing that in a true combat situation.
Yeah. I, I just, I believe I would have a hard time doing the double in a combat situation. I think I would just acro stall it. What have you guys learned in that? Is it only, you know, what I'm saying is it's just, you know, to be mindful enough to do it like that in, in a situation where things are pretty radical, pretty fast, isn't it still okay to just stall it and let it go?
And I will say what is most important is know when you will need to stall your wing. Exactly. Because most of the time we have some cravat, like not quite big cravat, but even with a half spin, you know, you can recover the cravat. And I would say on my 25 years experience of pilot, I, I never, I never did a stall because I need it. You know, I just did a stall during SIV. Yeah. Otherwise only with a half spin, I can recover the cravat, but you really need to have quite a huge part of your wing going through the canopy on the line to be able to, to really need to make a huge stall. And if you have like such big cravat,
which you need to make a stall, anyway, I would say not as soon as you touch the handle, but almost, you will pull a little bit and your wing will stall because your, your wing will have a smaller area open. No, you will maybe pull a 5cm and this part will stall. So I don't think you will be able to really make a double.
Yeah. You're saying you won't even get to there. I see what you're saying. So you really, you know, when you're thinking, when you're, when you're having to go in to stall or to back fly or tail slide, to get a cravat out, you're never going to get to that point. As soon as you start pulling brake on the, on the cravat side, it's going to spin. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Okay. So, so most in most cases, even with the, the really high aspect wings, you can just spin it out to that side. And in, in, in my experience and like in your videos, it's, it's pretty quick. It's, you know, it's 90 degrees, 120 degrees and it's out.
Exactly. And I was used to, to make it with the, with the under, with the brake. Or sometimes even I was using the B, you know, because we have some situations, the guy, the brakes, the line of the brake. So what you are, what you need to, I was, I'm speaking only about two liner now. And for sure, if the trainer is really easy, you pull the B, you can make half spin. Then with, over wing, like when you have three, four line for sure, it's a different, for sure.
Mm. Mm. I've heard some of the acro pilots that I've interviewed on the show. They have this, it seems to me, to be this magic number that you've got to do 300 full stalls. Well, you got to do 300 stalls. I shouldn't turn full stall, but you've got to do 300 stalls before you really start getting it. You know, you've got to do a lot. Is that, is that kind of what you and Seiko are pushing as well?
Yeah, you need to do a lot to be a master. I think Seiko, she did like, I don't know how many thousand she did, but quite a lot because she was used to go to Organia and train, train there. Mm. And I did less. I did, uh, quite a lot with the competition wing because, uh, and the last 10 years I was flying only with the comp wing, uh, apart of the side of coaching where I'm using, uh, some, um, more easy wing. And, uh, yeah, still mainly only competition wing. Only the, maybe the last two years, uh, more with the little acro wing, like not acro wing, like freestyle, because I was really, uh, happy to learn, uh, helicopter.
So before to learn helicopter, Seiko, she say, okay, you go to stall, stall, stall. So I was making hours of stall just to, to get more skills and more feeling before to go for, for helicopter. And I would say helicopter is very nice because you already become a sensitive pilot. And I, then I can use this sensitive, uh, feeling also to fly my combustion wing. So this is nice.
Yeah. Do you feel like you're a little bit more comfortable with the, with the acro training you've been doing these years with Seiko? Has it really helped your cross country flying as well?
Yeah. Yeah. Because I would say it's helped me to, um, to understand better what's going on with my, uh, competition wing. And, uh, if I feel, I understand better what's going on and the sun better as a feeling. Sure. I feel more comfortable. I feel more precise in my own link. So everything will be better for me. And, uh, so I get more comfortable. I feel more confidence with my competition wing. Even, uh, I'm used to, uh, I mean, I'm training with accro wing because I got in some situation which I can try again with the, um, is a competition wing, not, uh, infinity, uh, like, uh, uh, helicopter situation. You can go with the competition wing is still okay.
You don't damage the wing. So,
yeah, I've always thought that's really sexy. I'm not at that level with helicopters, but, uh,! I haven't tried it yet, but that would, I haven't seen people do it. And it's, yeah, that's, that's a nice move. Um, Charles, I want to switch lanes here to, to comp flying and strategy and tactics and all that. But before I do, have we, is there anything else you wanted to say about your school or about SIV and that side of training?
I would say with the, with the school, we are quite happy because we start like, uh, since three years with Seiko. And, uh, we have a special, a lot of pilot from US, coming for, to meet us for SIV on the cross country, which is very nice. And, uh, yeah, Japan all over the world. So it's a good time of the year when we are doing coaching and it's always a good time. Like it's more like, uh, uh, you say family atmosphere. She really, Seiko, you want to bring the atmosphere from the school of Japan in Europe. So it's what we are, we're trying to do. It's really fun. Hmm.
Yeah. It sounds fun. And I did the videos you guys are putting out are really terrific. So hats off to you for that. And I hope you keep doing it. Okay. Let's switch to racing at Maxine pointed out that, you know, to him, the, the, the mark of a really good pilot, like yourself and Julian and, you know, the guys that are, uh, and girls, uh, that are really consistent. Like that's, that's the, you know, kind of consistently in that top 10, that's the mark of a really good pilot. If what we know about, you know, technique and tactics are, you know, most of the pilots say it's certainly at a Superfinal level, you know, again, these, you know, most of the guy, you know, the, the, the difference between climbing is, you know, low percentile is one, two, 3%, maybe, uh, the difference between gliding, maybe the same.
Uh, so, you know, we talked about the mental thing, but what's the, what are the kind of breakaway differences between the, you know, those folks that you just consistently see on the podium and the top 10 and the rest. And is this something that, you know, you're obviously focusing on in the French team.
And I've seen for the guy who are regularly on the, on the top, on the podium, I would say variable to, to, to fly with the group, really consistent on the, they are in the, in control of the group, but on the other hand, if one of our alone, they are super efficient to fly alone. And, uh, so if they are a bit behind, they can, uh, catch a group. But if the group resplits, they can fly very efficiently. Julia, um, or some Slovenian pilot, they can really fly fast alone. Even though I'm not in the group, but they can fly very fast. And, um, yeah, I think this is really what makes the top pilot. Cause you need to be to master the group to fly on the, keep it on, use it as a maximum of the task.
But then like, uh, when the group split, when you have the advantage, the last part of the task, then we are able to go. And, uh, we always, we were quite big margin compared to some pilots who already always attack during the task. Attack, attack, but then sometimes they are stuck on the end. So this is a hard part. Even the, you see the condition are good, but okay. You keep in your process. You, you stay with the group. And, uh, when you have opportunity, when you just try to, to escape and maybe the guy will follow you. I saw some guy like, uh, Yuri village. These guys are amazing. No, he's flying. Maybe I don't know, less than 50 hours per year.
He's not competing. He's not, he's competing only in the main competition. And he's always at the top. And the relax is always in good position position in the group. And it don't take much risk. And like, okay. You always arrive like in the leading group of the task. And day by day is result is building is a final ranking like this. And on the other hand, you have some guy who want to, say to, to win some task. And someday we make good someday we make a less good result. But what she, what is important is your average on the, on VM. Even now is, uh, scoring changing a bit.
You need to be consistent on the top. You're for sure. You can have some discard. If you play with your discard too much, you know, one day you will miss some, uh, some good discard for your top results.
Can you talk about, uh, one of the things I heard recently was that the French team is trying to, or maybe they already have completed. It's almost like, uh, I think of it like chess, you know, really good chess masters. It, the first move by the, the first guy, it, there's almost like an auto response for the second move on it. They don't have to think about it. It's just what you do to that, you know, that move requires that move. And then the next move requires that move. And it's, you know, in the beginning, I mean, the chess is all about the beginning, but it is, it, it becomes very easy for, you know, chess masters. Uh, so we, we call that like codifying, you know, and I understand the French team is, is really codified what you should do where, based on where you are.
In other words, to, to, to eliminate more mistakes. Cause usually when you get behind, if you start really trying to push to catch up, you, you, you could, uh, add more mistakes and just, and it gets worse and worse. And so you, you know, you, they always say, you know, you concentrate on just flying well, and eventually the lead gaggle will get caught somewhere and, and you can catch up. But is there, can you share any of those kind of rules that the French team has developed? In other words, you know, if you're, if you're midway in the gaggle and the, the lead guys get to the top and they start catching up, they start going, do you go then, or do you go to the top? You know, are there, are there things like that that are just, in other words, they're trying to give you guys rules so you don't have to think as much.
I would say for sure you need to stick to the gaggle if you want to try to arrive with them at the end. But then you have also to, to be objective about what information you have. For example, if you are, you are nice value where you are climbing and you see this guy going for myself, I would just stay in my terminal and climb as long as my value is good for the day. And then I will move because if you move too fast, then you arrive for sure. You cannot arrive by higher than the guy who are starting higher than you know, when you fly with speed, I thought if you get a good line, that it's not a,
I say realistic. Yeah. So maybe I don't, I don't see really some words where you have to go when the guy are leaving.
Well, not, not necessarily that, but just, just kind of general rules that maybe that was a bad example, but you know, just kind of depending on where you are in a gaggle or on a course, you know, if it's early, if it's the middle, if it's the late, you know, late in the, in the race, are there things that the, the French team is kind of drilling in, you know, in terms of discipline?
I think the, the, the new young pilot, there are more rules than the old one. The old one are more freestyle.
And we are more based on the old tools, like, I say old generation, like, like improving our glide, watching instruments, be aware about air mass information, more maybe creative. And for sure, the new generation, what I see on the, on the new French competition pilot generation, they are not so able to fly cross country, so efficient as a, as us, but in competition, they are amazing because they really stick, as you say, with the group, they have some rules like they have, they always need to have some pilot be below them.
And, you know, so you use information. If you have the guy used by the over, you will lose one moment. But if you have the, the guy who's making the game, you're like 10 pilot below you, you, you just use them. Then at your level, you just find the good pilot to follow.
Then step by step, it will be more helpful for you to catch the top pilot. But if you go crazy in front, for sure, you have less chance to find the terminal or you will take more time. And then when you find the terminals, the guy will just catch you and you just take Chris for nothing. So I think the new one, new generation value, they'll be more disciplined than the, the old one. So we, we are learning from them anyway.
Now this is
the game. You always have some young coming on you. They catch you experience of knowledge, but you have to catch them. They are spirit, their experience and knowledge as well. Otherwise we just overtook you.
Give us some advice for pilots that are just getting into competitions. You know, what should you focus on? What are some of the things that you'd want to pass on to maybe that younger generation or even the older generation that's just discovering comps?
For, I would say don't try to make a result, try to make a great performance.
So if you focus on the results, it just give you a, say excitation or some stress or some stuff like this. If you are focused on the performance, you will be focused on the process. Like, Oh, you have to be ready on takeoff. Oh, you have to manage your position on your timing to get to be as a right position for the start. And like then, okay. This kind of stuff during all the tasks. And if you step by steps, you will make a good, good process to arrive to goal. Maybe, okay. Maybe you're like, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes after the first, no problem. After you will reduce your margin, you will improve your tactics. You will fly maybe a little bit faster on the part where you know you can fly faster.
And step by step, you will adjust catch the top pilot. Don't, uh, don't focus on the results. I would say results can be a final goal, but then you have to build some, uh, um, let me see. So go level of third level goal to, to improve your skills, improve your tactics, improve, improve the way you, you find the information in VR or you use it to, uh, to be more efficient.
So you should have been down in Brazil, right? Yeah. in the Superfinal, which was canceled, of course, because Corona. Can you, was there any kind of things you were working on before you went in terms of, are there things you do, either mental exercises or physical exercises or anything to help? What do you do to get prepared for something like the Superfinal or a World Cup, you know, a high-level race?
So the last four months before going to Brazil, I was in office every day. So I'd say I did two flights in four months because it was wintertime here and every day it was good weather. I was working and when it was a race day, it was raining or snowing. So it was bad timing this year. And I spent more time skipping in the garage than flying. So I was really physically fully prepared to fly the New Yorker. And so what we do before going to the comp? So we have the old experience on track from the previous competition there.
So our coach is making a crazy job. Like he takes all the data from the last maybe five or six comps in Castelo. And we have some of the track coming from CU. We have some debriefing with information. How was the condition? How was the race this day? So we can introduce ourselves on the topography, on the ideology of what we can face. I have experience from two comps in Castelo.
And then what I tried with myself when I'm not flying for a long time, I just use map to set some, you see, yes, I'm going to do some tasks, even maps in the Alps, you know. And just to stay in the process of what I have to do in the air. To go from one point to another. And like basic thing, climbing, transition, just to imagine I'm flying to get this feeling. And on some parts, I will just sit, close my eyes, imagine I'm tumbling. What kind of action I'm doing with my arm. What? What I can correct. And okay, I'm, now I did like, I don't know, 50K.
I want to go full speed. So I can imagine I'm going full speed. What I'm looking in there, I'm looking to the canopy, to my riser, to the instrument. How I can organize all this timing to catch every information I need. And actually, this is the only way I can fly when I need to go to work. And it's not playable on the race day..
So you're doing a lot of visualization.
Yeah, I do a visualization like this. Because I can, how I can fly. If it's not possible to fly, I need to keep the process and keep, try to keep the feeling. And keep like automatism, reflex I have in the air.
To catch information, to use information, and to be efficient...! So, yeah, this is the way. If you can fly, I would say, for a long time, I think it's a good process. And I'm used to do it several times during the winter. I don't say I would do it every day. But maybe one per week, I will focus on doing stuff like this. Or even when I'm skipping, with the rope in my garage, I can move my mind to the flight path. So I'm skipping. But I imagine I'm in the air. I'm flying. I'm going from one point to another. So what I'm doing in the air. I'm pushing. I'm turning. I have to go through this process.
Even in a moment I'm doing some sports. So for me I would say it's a good point for me to keep connecting with paragliding.
How important is fitness to kickboxing? something like the Superfinal when you're racing for potentially 12 days you
need to be fit to uh under your wing for i say four five hours and the most important is to be able to recover so you are you get ready every day for each task so i i will not say you need a crazy training physically but you need to to sleep good you need to eat well you need to to prepare thing and so you are 100 of your potential this is a main important for me when i go to comp you should train i know for myself i need to train because if i train a good my mental will be ready i know some pilot they don't need to go
to get ready physically but it's their process to be ready for the comp but mine i like to know i did all my best to be ready so when i'm in comp i will not think oh maybe i need to train more physically to be ready for the comp no i did it so i don't need to think about it
what kind of mental where are you trying to get uh you know before you show up to a Superfinal and then kind of each day do you have a mental where are you trying to get uh you know before you show up to a Superfinal do you have any kind of routine or anything you do to get in the right frame of mind and what what is that frame of mind are you trying to be uber relaxed are you just trying to be uber aware are there are there things that you're chasing in terms of where you're in terms of your headspace
so generally i would say i'm i'm quite a relaxed guy i'm not so exciting so it's quite easy for me to be relaxed i don't need many uh tools activity around me to to feel good uh
i mainly need to to wake up and take off and uh from my experience on the earth i don't need to make something uh very special during the comp what is the main thing i do i know i like to have my bag with my instrument everything ready uh like when i in the morning when i wake up i'm like oh i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this okay everything is ready i know when i have to go up i take my bag i go it's ready and uh when i'm take off you know sometime we had some some tasks we have to wait three four hours on the takeoff nothing happen or they do one briefing two briefing three briefing and they change the task so if i you are too much aware every time there is a briefing or when this is canceled new briefing you know it's always the you make up and down so usually when i put my helmet and i close the glass in front uh i'm connected with the task this is this is a moment i can be on the briefing prepare the task aware about what we will have to do okay then i put my harness on the i clip my helmet and i'm in
yeah maxime calls that the kind of the funnel effect you know you as you get closer and closer to launch you get more and more focused and and tuned in to what you're about to do you don't want distractions and other things at that point and
even in vr you need to find the right level of activity activity between to relax and two hour if you want to be able to catch all information or the main information you need at each moment of the flight because if you are i'm sorry if you're not able to catch all the information you need at each moment of the flight you need to be able to catch all the information you need at each moment of the flight too much not nervous but too active maybe you will miss one information which is close from you if you are too relaxed maybe things will happen during the task in terms of tactics and you are not aware about what's going on so it's always be streaming which is not so so easy to to find so maybe some someday on certain certain part of the task if i feel i will say maybe a bit sleepy maybe uh not in full activity i will be more able to use the other pilot for this part of the task and then when i feel more aware or i try to be maybe more aware for the start or for the end of the task because i know this last maybe 20 25k which has an important moment to to be focused on what's going on and to not lose some time on the on the best pilot of the day
how important is it you know i i tend to get really probably very way too relaxed about weather at comps i just don't even pay any attention uh am i blowing it i you know you get your briefing in the morning and you fly with everybody else and i just don't find it's that relevant but how important is it or how much are you looking at the weather when you're at a comp i
see sometimes we look too much at the weather and then things appear to be completely different during the task yeah but for sure it's good to we look to the weather to know what will be the stadium of the day you know it's like a football game you are you have a stadium which is a whole area where you will have the task you have to know how it will work as we are 150 pilot in the air you will see very fast how it works anyway but what is it's interesting is to know how it works and how it works and how it works and how it works and how it works it will evolve it will change it will move during the day to also be ready to adapt your your timing or your altitude of flying and it's in these parts the weather will be helpful for sure for sure it's completely different when you have to fly cross country or when you have to fly like you X-Alps where the weather is so much important i would say from a
follower for the X-Alps yeah weather looks really important even sometimes guys really push a lot in the certain condition but yeah you have to they have to use every window to to make few k in flight it's better than walking looks like
charles you mentioned that one of the real pitfalls uh people can get into early on especially but obviously at any time in a career is to think too much about the results are there pitfalls other things that you know in your twenty five years these you look back and i could have avoided that record done that differently
so i was a
flyer when you progress fly with the wing for your level flying the condition of your level which is important also important and then when you build your skills step by step no you are you can go with a different wing maybe with more performance but you need to have this couple with pilot on the wing always in a connected to the
to always able to face the air mass you will have you have too much pilot who want to fly with more performance with the wing but finally they are less efficient in the air because they they can't fly as a pilot they have to have a lot of energy they have to have a lot of energy of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of
of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of
of of
of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of
of of can put in paragliding in terms of training or competition, the level you want to go and the time you will need to reach this level. If you can fly 30 hours per year, it will need maybe more time. During the 30 hours you will fly, you will need to be super
prepared, organized but every hour you will fly, you will not only fly, you will learn something, you will progress. I think also this is one of the differences I had in my career. When I was flying 400 hours per year, I was flying cross country, I was flying and the last 10 years, even if I make a one-hour flight, I know okay, I say this hour flight is for fun or it will be for training. If it's for training, I will
cut my flight in several parts. I know, okay, in competition pushing full bar at the end is quite an important moment. Maybe we do it only for 5 or 10 minutes. I need to work for it. Even if I fly only one hour at home, I need to work during 10, 20 or 15 minutes only for full bar to get the feeling, to get the feedback. When I go to competition, I'm ready for it.
I feel I'm not good in thermal. I have a lack of feeling. Okay, even if it's a super good day to make maybe, I don't know, 200k, I will just stick to the local area. I will climb, I will go down, I will climb, I will go down just to improve my skill, my feeling. It's just not only about take-off, make 100k and come back. Yeah, so you're talking about
turning kind of every flight into an opportunity to train and learn. Yeah.
Maybe for sure, if you have I would say maybe not every flight but if you have a goal, for sure it's better because when you try to reach this goal and then you improve yourself then you have some material to make your debriefing and it's always better for the pilot to improve. On the other hand, I know I will make some flights sometime I don't want to make a goal. I just want to fly for fun, which is normal because if you're always, like, if you always go to fly with a goal, then you will feel at work, you know. Sounds good to have a mix. It's good to, it's good sometimes to go to fly and you are like on the beach, you take yourself and you go in the wave and you just have fun.
But if your goal is to go, if your goal is to make I don't know, to make a result in competition, to make a distance in a cross country, for sure. You need to pass by some flights for some training, which helps you to improve your skills and your
level faster. Like in every sport.
Yeah, of
course. You cannot only play.
It's not, you need to work to train.
Yeah. Last question, Charles. When you talk about goals and goal setting, could you share some of yours? Because it sounds like it's more appropriate to set a goal like, I want to be a better climber. I want to learn how to pick better lines. I want to, in other words, I want to make goals align with becoming a better pilot, not necessarily a goal of, I want to be top three at the world.
So, I can explain something. Like the last year, maybe you see most of the super finals, they were in a flat terrain. Not much in the mountains. And like 10 years ago, I was living very close from Saint-Hilaire. And I said, okay, now we will move like on the other side of the mountain. Because it's maybe only flat terrain in the part where I'm flying, where I can train. So, we move all the family with the house in this part. And I said, okay, now I have to take off. It's 150 meters high reach. So, it's not very high. You have the flat in front.
And the main reach is 10K behind. And I said, okay, now I will train there. Because I know I can fly easily on the mountain, the reach. But what I need for the competition, it's to improve my skill in the flat. So, I need to move my self to the flat to be able to train as much as I can and to get the skills for it. Because when you come from the mountain with a reach to follow, when you arrive in the flat and somebody tells you, you missed the line. And then you say, which line? So, you have to fly in the flat to understand how the things are working in the flat. To be aware about different elements you need to be efficient.
I know I train a lot. In this area, with side wind, with front wind. And then, okay, you understand what's going on with the thermal, how you can use the line, which finally you realize there is some line, or there is some thermal activity going always in the same way, which people call line, but finally it's only thermal, which you eat every time. Then you learn how to exit from the thermal with some wind. You learn how to enter thermal. You know how to thermal better. You learn how to drift with 30, 40 km wind in the flat. This is the kind of thing you have to go to train and to improve. If you only fly on the reach, you will never face it.
And then you will arrive in this kind of situation. You can only say, I don't have the skills. Yes, sorry, but you have to go and train.
I like that approach. You got to train. You got to train if you want to play the game. Charles, thank you very, very much. I really appreciate it. It's fantastic to hear your voice. It's been too long. I'm sorry you're not down at the Superfinal. But I think there seems to be some silver linings with all of this. I hope you're enjoying time with your family, and I'm sure you are. By the time this show comes out, the world will have radically changed. I can't even predict, but just be safe and best to you, man.
Yeah, things will be changed a lot, for sure. So I just want to wish all the best to the paragliding community, their family, friends, and let's see how things will go. I wish Gavin we can have a nice beer and barbecue in Chelan.
Yes, I do too. I hope that happens. We shall see. I don't think the U.S. is taking this seriously enough early enough, but we'll see. I think we're going to be following. They say we're about 11 days behind what's happening in Spain and France and Italy right now, so we shall see. But yeah, fingers crossed. It would be wonderful to have a beer with you in Chelan and do some flying together. Thank you very much. I need to get Seiko on the show as well. It'd be awesome to talk to her. Well, cool. I know it's getting a little bit later. You're part of the world, so I'll let you go, but thanks very much. Bye-bye, Gavin. Cheers. Bye-bye. Cheers.
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