Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. By the time this episode drops, we recorded this on the 22nd of March, Sunday, with Charles Cazot. He is over in France in lockdown, and I am here in Ketchum, Idaho, in lockdown. And by lockdown on this end, I mean, you know, we can go outside and stuff, but, you know, basically everything is closed, and they don't, you know, we have to respect social distancing, and we can go get food and stuff. So it's not totally extreme, but I wanted to tap in with Charles because they can't fly currently right now in France and Belgium and Italy and other places. And there's certainly a very interesting conversation going on here about that. And by the time we put out the show, I will have put out the show that I did with my sister and my good friend, Terry O 'Connor, who's an ER doctor here.
They're really on the front lines of all of this. And so I think we'll have probably will not be flying here either. And it doesn't sound like that's a smart thing to do. And potentially, if you had an accident and overwhelm an already overwhelmed system. But anyway, I want to apologize that we probably didn't sound very current in terms of where the world most likely stands now, several weeks later. But this episode is with Charles Cazot. He's been flying for more than 25 years. He was the first kind of junior. They have a junior training, professional training program in France that you can come up through to become a professional pilot and be paid and coached in that process.
And so this is something that's pretty foreign for most other pilots in the world, but a very cool program that people like Charles and Maxime Pinot and others have come up through and honor and have come up through. So he was the first with this. He got on the team in 1995 when he was 18 years old and then made the French team in 2000. He's been on it ever since, so almost 20 years with the French team. So I wanted to just talk to him about what they're teaching and what he's learned over the years, and how to fly faster in comps, and strategy and tactics and all that kind of stuff, and mental... uh, the mental side of the sport, which is of course huge. And then also, we talked quite a bit about what he and Seiko have been teaching at their school the last three years, and SIV, and specifically SIV on two-liners and pretty hot wings.
So great talk. It was great to speak with Charles again. I hadn't flown with him in a while or talked to him in a while. So enjoy.
Charles, awesome to have you on the Mayhem. I've been wanting to talk to you a long time. I was trying to think about it this morning, when the last time we saw each other was... I know we flew together in Chelan a few years back. I feel like I've seen you since then, but uh, as always, it's... it's always too long. But thanks for... thanks for coming on the show. I understand, like I do right now, you have a lot of time in this time of corona, yeah.
Thanks, Gavin, to to bring me to the show. Yeah, I think the last time we met maybe was in Colombia for a competition there. Yeah, that's right. All right, we have quite a lot of time, uh, actually at home with the corona issue, and I'm not one of the guy walking because the office closed. So now we are waiting the stuff going on and give all our energy to the people who are informed fighting with the virus, yeah.
It's, it is really an unprecedented time. I just did a podcast last night with my sister, you know? She's, she's not a pilot, but she's the health and science reporter for KQED, which is our kind of NPR station out in San Francisco. And so she's been on the front lines reporting on this really since it came across from China because it first came to San Francisco from China. And it's just, man, it's just incredible watching the numbers and the escalation of this. And then, of course, you know, you guys were the first to get shut down, I believe, right? You know, France, Belgium, Italy, you know, the shutdown flight.
It wasn't the worst. It was the first. It started quite badly before the Superfinal, actually. And so it's why nobody decided to go to Brazil. And now it's quite bad in Italy. And we know it will happen to France and the other country from Europe and then the rest of the world. So we just try to understand what's going on and to be ready and to face it and then to go ahead. Yeah. And what is your work? Actually, I'm working in a mobile phone company, Orange. And I have this deal with the ministry and the company. So they allow me to train and comp half of the year. So I mainly like autumn and winter in the office and spring and summer.
I can compete, train and teach with Seiko in our school.
This is a great place to start. So I can't remember who it was that I spoke to about this. when you're on the French team, you can get paid to fly, correct? You can work for Orange and then they have a system where you're allowed to fly for, is that a certain amount of time or something? How does that work?
Yeah, we have a system. If you are in some of the big companies like the train station or like mine at Orange, in fact, the company, They earn some taxes on the time you are not at work, so it's good for the company and it's good for the athletes, and it's quite helpful, especially for piloting. It's quite helpful to have time to get the money to go to competition and train. For sure, you need to find a sponsor to support your budget for competition, but you know, when you go to competition, you don't need to focus on it's good weather, maybe if I'm at work I can make some tandem, but it's not the case. I know when I'm in competition, I can focus on competition.
And the only fact is you have to stay in the top 12 FI ranking. So it's a bit of pressure.
Ah, okay. So how many French pilots right now are in your situation where they can work and fly but be supported to fly?
So in the big company, I think I'm the last one. And then some other like Honorin in Ozone, Pierre-Amy in Nervure, they have a little support from the local government for it. So they don't have the same amount of time as me, but they still have some weeks to do it, which is quite nice.
And I think the other one, they are students, so they don't get the same support. So for sure, if you are in the top-level ranking and you have a big company, it's quite helpful. So you make a long career.
Is it all decided on ranking?
Yes, because in fact, the mystery spot on the first October, if you're in the top 12, then you can apply for it. If you are 13, you cannot.
Wow, that is pretty tight. So take me to the, as I understand, you were the first person in kind of this juniors program, which has now become a thing. You know, Maxime came up through it, Maxime Pinault, who did really well in the X-OPS last time, and obviously another really good competition pilot, I think, Honorin did. But what is it, and can you explain, you know, because this is something completely foreign, I think, to most other countries.
Yeah, this project started in, as I remember, it was 1995, and I was one of the seven children to enter this system. and it's based in Font-Romeu, Font-Romeu is quite well known in France because it was the area to prepare the athletes for the Olympic Games in Mexico and it's on a high level plateau, 1500 meters, so it's good to get some like oxygen to be prepared for long racing. So it's why they organized this group there, so you have like, I don't know, 10 or 20 different sports coming here to train. You have athletes from all Europe coming on certain time of the the year to train, and they decided to make this pool of uh of training for the pilot of pilot there.
So actually, you have some kids from uh children, yeah, some kids they are like from 13 to 18 on the year they start. I was 18, so it was like a hunter only for one year. I knew it when I enter, but it was really a great year because we have uh some coach like Didier Ziga, which was a friendship pilot years ago, and some other coach around, and we learned a lot because when I entered this school, you know, I never did a flight bigger than maybe 15k, and when I exit from the school, I went back to Saint-Hilaire, which was close to my own place. On the next spring, I was able to fly 150, 160 for my first cross country in the Alps, so it was very interesting the way they learn us.
Just know, you mainly learn about the process, and then when you have the condition and you're ready, you just go tell
me more about the process, so
We learn, we say, step by step. First, uh, like handling on the ground to be, uh, on full control of our wing. When we did some SIV, because the idea was to not to let us fly as far as possible, but first to be in control of our chair and to be control of our skill, to be more and more skills. And then we, we went step by step. So I would say we, we learned to, to climb so dynamic or in a thermal activity to be more efficient thermal, to be more aware about our sensation. And then step slowly and slowly we go from thermal to another thermal. And after each flight we have like debriefing for some time. During one hour we were briefing before the flight, everything was organized so we can understand what we do in the air to make it better for the next flight.
And then I keep this process for myself when I came back in the Alps after the school and I just add some more experience some more skills, some more knowledge to be better and better yeah,
to improve Progress. Is the goal of the school, so when you get into this program and you're identified, do you, actually I should ask that, do you sign up for this school or are you picked? I
sign up for the school because I really want to go there, but there is a selection, so I think we were like 20 or 30 and there were only 7 places the first year. So they don't make a selection only based on the level of the pilot; they were also first aware about the school level because they don't want people to be focused too much on piloting. They want us to have a good level of school so we can have free time to fly. And they know some pilots who are in the Alps, maybe with their parents already flying, they have some kind of advantage. And I was coming from the flat.
I was alone to fly. Nobody in my family was flying. So maybe we will say, okay, maybe this guy, we can help a little bit if we put him in the system. system, and from my past experience, I was, uh, I was climbing, I was running, I make, I was making football, a lot of activity, and I was always trying to go ahead and to push further my, my skills. So I think they feel it when they ask the question and they say, "Oh, maybe this guy have some potential to, to, to improve a lot." And the idea was not to push us to the competition. I, I know, uh, when I start piloting, I didn't want to go to competition. Competition finally just become a tools to progress, to know some more, to learn from different pilots, but I didn't want to go to competition.
I want to go to cross country, ah.
So when you sign up for the program, it's not the the goal of the program isn't to create necessarily race pilots, it's just to create good pilots
Yeah, the first year it was more about, uh, yeah, creating good pilot, and then the level year after year improve. And I will say, when they have to make the selection, selection, then they, they select quite a good level of pilot. On this pilot, after three years in this school, they have the World Cup, World Cup level pilot, which was crazy because you have some, uh, teenager they came, maybe the biggest fight they did was 30K, and they learned year after year to improve their skills, to learn about the airmask, to learn about the tactics. And after three years, they are able to be in the top 20 of some tasks in World Cup. So this was very interesting, and they did quite a good job, yeah.
Yeah.
When I spoke with Maxime a couple months ago about his books, and I understand he's done some coaching for the French team as well. He talked about these four categories that you have to focus on for learning and becoming a good pilot. There's the technical side, climbing, gliding. There's the tactical side, your decision-making. And then there's the mental Mental side is the big one. I forget what the fourth one is now, but the mental one was the one that he said was just by far and away, you know, that at the high levels, you know, the Superfinal levels, you know, pretty much everybody's a pretty good climber and a pretty good glider and pretty much tactics are, you know, quite similar, you know, stay in the lead gaggle until the end, try to make a break.
You know, there's not a huge difference there. The huge difference is really in the mental. Is that something that the school you went to really focused on as well?
Yeah, for sure. I think we learned more about mental when I leave the school. Then I have the chance to enter the French team. And then we get some input about the mental and how it will change our performance. Because as you say, in, uh, like the level of the top pilots, if we were getting the skills, yeah, everybody is able to push, uh, full speed, everybody can climb good. Then you have some pilots climbing more or less, and now I would say the difference is more about how you see the air mass and also from the mental view, how you are able to do the right thing at the, the right moment.
Because most of us, we know what to do, but to do it at the right moment, to have the right trimming during all the tasks or the competition is quite, which is a quite, uh, demanding and not so easy. Even me, some competition I'm really in on, some I will not, so, so, or completely out. And, uh, yeah, this is a hard part of learning, mental part, what
do you what do you attribute that to you know all these years of competing well let me ask you the other question first So you started the school in 95. What was the first year you made the French team?
I entered the French team in 2000. Wow. I did two World Cup in 1998. It was Murcie and Chamonix. And in 2000, I entered the French team. Until now.
You've been on the French
team every year since 1998? yeah exactly holy moly in
The French team, we had like a pool of 20, I would say 20, 30 pilots at the beginning. And then it, uh, and now we are like maybe less than 10 because, uh, yeah, the thing change and the budgets change, and the the the way it's organized a little bit different. And, uh, yes, in 20 years you can see like the wing changing, you can see the tactics changing. You can see everything was more demanding for the pilot to be at the top level. I say, yeah, the wing was a really big change when the two-liner arrived. And then I think the big change after the two-liner is that most of the pilots, they were able to have a really good wing.
And then the tactics become more and more important in the competition.
So you mentioned something that I think a lot of pilots, including myself, really struggle with. There are times when you're just in it, and I call that kind of being in the flow. And then there's times where you're just not. Have you been able to isolate and drill down on that and figure out better ways to be in it? i
will say, yes, you see some moment or some part of the task, you say, "I'm not in," and then you try to understand what's going on with your mind. And most of the time, when you want to, to make the results, or too fast, and you don't have the process to, to focus on what you have to do at a certain moment of the task, like, I don't know, you are terming, you have to be focused on your feeling and like each turn of the thermal. I know I have to focus on one, uh, on the meteo, on the pilot, on me. And if you are too focused, oh, I will miss the gurgle, uh, I would miss the result. You know, if you are too focused on, on the results part, then for sure everything you, you trained for before and you organize to make a good, a good performance, then it starts to be destroyed because your mind is not in the action, it's too far away.
Are there things that you've learned over the years, say mantras or something you're writing on your instruments, or are there clues that you've been able to grasp onto and resolve that in flight? They're thinking, hey, Charles, come back, or Charles, you're thinking too much. I got to let my subconscious do more work. Are there things that you've kind of learned or codified to help that?
I work with Thomas Torreira, which is a mental coach of several pilots, including Chrigel. And yeah, the last two years, I was working with him. and I was flying with a fly now writing on my instrument and just remember okay, You are in the air; you have to be focused on what you do now and be efficient now, just to be in the game, not already at the goal or thinking what will be the consequences of my results, for example, for my deal with the ministry, with my company, with the result at the end of the year. Just, okay, you are in the race.
You are at this moment of the task. You are in this situation. What you have to do to be efficient now and focus on it, nothing else.
Can you, what was the main thing you went to Thomas for and what advice did he give to you to solve that?
The main thing for me was really the pressure. Sure, uh, I have to deal with, um, with the say, with the bylining involved in, uh, in my job as a with the deal in the company. So, in some year, was really complicated to, to, to deal with because you, you have like three good results, you know, you have to make one comp a very good result, and even you don't, you are not, you are not on the flying area, you are not in the task, you already, your mind is not there. So, yeah, it helped me to, to really focus on the highlighting side when I'm in competition and to relax from this contract with my company because on one way, it's a really good
It's nice, Denali have, but it cannot work if I'm not focused on competition. I have, I have to be able to go to competition to keep my pleasure to fly and, yeah, to enjoy the process to, to compete and not to do only this for, I would say, for my deal with the company. Yeah, it's a very special place, I would say. I, I don't know if some there is not so many pilot I think who have this, uh, no kind of deal and, uh, on one way super nice deal, on another way, yeah, it can give a little bit stress, but, uh, no, I think I have the deal with for 10 years, so I learned to, to live with it. It's, I would say, privilege, so I have to face it, no problem.
I would imagine that in some ways, you know, the silver lining of it, I mean, there's lots of silver linings there, but I would imagine one of the main silver linings of that kind of situation is it probably keeps you really motivated to fly. I mean, do you think you'd have the same motivation without it?
In fact, I don't need the motivation to fly because I love so much flying, I just need to to go and fly. I know some I have some friend who we go for competition and when they go for a fly, they go they go to train for one, two hours and they don't like to stay at the same place during their flight. So okay, they make their two hours training and they know they want to make a result in competition, but for me, if I spend like five hours in the same thermal, I don't care because I just love to be in the air, you know? And I come to piloting because I was coming from mountain from climbing. I first want to use piloting to go down, then I realize I can climb and I can move from one mountain to another mountain only with the piloter and I don't even if I don't I'm not competing, I can go on my cross country for hours.
I just love to fly.
Back to Thomas, how did he help you to relax and to distance yourself from the pressure?
It was mainly this work we did with finding the words which are linked to some image or some feeling which bring me back to the present, present, not with the future or the past, but really, okay, I see this world in front of me, I know what this world mean, the feeling linked to this world, and then I connect, I switch to present mode, not to move my mind somewhere else, yes.
Will you keep working with them, or is that done? No,
we will keep working. We will keep working together, yeah.
Wow.
What do you like most about flying? Is it the competitions? Is it the working with Seiko and instructing? Is it just flying?
As I said, I love flying. I was used to spend like four hours, four, 50, 400 hours in the year sometimes. That's a lot. When I was a student, it was like this, 400 hours in the air during the year. Now it's more, it's less. I think it's like 200 hours. And I feel now, in the past, I needed to fly a lot, to see different situations with the terrain, with the air mass. And now I feel if I fly 150, 200 hours, it's quite a lot in the year. And I feel comfortable with this amount of hours, and I'm more angry when I go to competition.
Because if I fly too much, it starts to be kind of routine, but if I fly don't not so much, then I really want to be in there. And for me, it's more efficient than for the comp, and yeah, I like to fly cross country because I came from cross country part before to go to competition. I like to discover over to take my own decision. I like to fly alone, it's a bit egoist, but it's, uh, one part of the flight I like. And, uh, also the side we we start with seiko with the school, uh, I like a lot. I like to share the knowledge with the with the students who are coming. I start to give them feedback, information, help them to to progress, always to to keep the safety part in mind.
And, uh, I always say, "You will be a good pilot if you are an old pilot," you know? And years after years, we all realize it's just true. And I really push old pilots. So whatever the level they are, just go to SIV to train your skills. And they tell me, oh, but you know, I did it five years ago. I'm a good pilot. I say, I don't care. You just go. You show. And when you come back, you know, it's like you send your car to the garage every year to check if everything is working well and it's the same for the pilot you have to go with your wing to learn, to improve your skills and just to become better, you cannot just stay in your chair and say okay, are you honest I'm a good pilot I can fly 100, I can fly 200k say okay, you fly you fly good, you understand what's going on in the air, but you have to be a pilot under your wing and you have to know how you will react in every situation.
You have to learn how your wing, your new wing will react as well. So Seiko is really the coach for the SIV and for me she's amazing because I think she's the only one who's a co-pilot in cross country. She was a co-pilot in acro. She is test pilot instructor. instructor, uh, she has a really good overview what's going on with the wing and how the the pilot pilot they react, and for me it's really interesting. I learned a lot from her and how she she trained, how she focused on the on flying, it's really interesting, yeah.
I think you guys really broke terrific ground with what you're doing there at the school and sharing these videos, because I always think back to Russ Ogden gave a terrific talk here in Sun Valley right after the World Cup in 2012. And he obviously knows a lot about wing design. And back then he was still recommending, which I know he's changed his mind on now, but he was still recommending that it wasn't really a good idea to do SIV on our comp wings. You know, so back there, back then open class wings and now serial class wings, but, you know, that, you know, the hotter end of the scale, two liners, you know, that that was just, you know, you should still do SIV on a lower level wing because if they went, you know, they, they, they were very hard to recover.
And you guys have shown, I mean, and also wings have changed and, you know, the CCC class is definitely tamped down on, you know, say an R11, but, you know, you guys have shown that, you know, you really should do it and you should do it frequently and, you know, if done well, that you can do it safely. yeah
And when we have a compilot coming, for example, with the CC wing, CCC wing, and if he tells us, "Uh, it's my first SIV." It's happened, you know? It's, or it will be, my first all ever, really. Yeah, it's happened. It's, uh, you know, my first all. I did it after 10 years of flying, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was playing across a competition wing for long because it... It was not, I would say, it was not in the move at this time when I was flying. I was flying like a prototype, everything. I never did stall before. And then when I entered the French team, they say, okay, now you want to go for competition?
You have to pass by the SIV course. So then we go to SIV. My first SIV was with a prototype from Advance, no, with APCO. I was with this kind of prototype there, and they say, okay, now you go for SIV, go for STOR with full-speed collapse. And then if I think to this with more years of experience, I say, but we were crazy to go for the SIV like this. I know our students, if they come with no experience in SIV, Even they are flying competition wing, we told them, "Okay, you are better to come with a lower level wing because it will be more easy to get to learn the skills, to learn the tools, to see your reaction, and then when you manage the situation well, you have you"
you under well use the tools to recover the different tools then, okay? You move to your CCC wing, and then you just adapt your skills to this wing. Otherwise, it's too much thing moving, and there's too much stress for the pilot. So this is for me, this is just normal, so it's why we go step by step. You know, we just, we just, it is not to make, say, a circus, a Disney Disneyland tour. You know, we say to the, to the students, we don't, you don't pay on the come to to have, I would say, fun; you come to learn. And when you go back home, you have to some tools, Some tools in your baggage, some tools you can make only over the water, and some tools you master, you can try at home and improve.
Because some tools, even if you try in the air, if you don't master, you will just go in worse situation. So it's better you learn some tools which you know, you learn some situation, you have some experience, and then you know when you will be able to handle or not, and when you will need to use your rescue or not.
Yeah. It seems like to me, that's almost the most important thing that SIV teaches you is, I mean, it's all important, but the big one is what situation am I in right now and how long is this going to take to fix? Because then you know if you should throw. And it's, I think a lot of people, well, we know this, a lot of people hit the ground because they try to fix it too long.
Exactly, or they don't have the right tools for the situation, or they don't know the tools. And sometimes, if you have the tools and you know it, you know it's like in the air, you know, in which situation of the task you are, you know what you have to do in this moment, and you will not think to go full speed if you need to climb. And it's the same when you have something going on with your wing and SIV; you will use the right tool at the right moment, and it smooths the situation, and then it's more easy to recover. For sure, some situation maybe you cannot recover because it's too complicated for your wing or your level. So the rescue is maybe the only issue. But at least you think to use the rescue because we have some pilots going in the water sometimes.
Even don't think to use the rescue if the coach don't tell them, rescue, rescue, you know?
Wow. Yeah. How often should people do SIV?
I would say if you are able to do one barrier, it's just amazing if you can do one every two years, especially when you change your wing. And often the pilot, they say, "I come to a side with my old wing because I will change next week and I don't want to make a side with the new wing." So why you come? You are better. You come with your new wing, you know, or both wings, so you can show what you do and you can do it again with the new wing because the new wing will have different behavior, so better to know how it will react and then you are prepared for the whole season or for the next two years.
Understand they don't want to damage the wing. Usually, you don't damage the wing apart if you have like a comp wing with very thin line, it's quite okay one.
of the things that I've been practicing quite a bit since watching your videos is the whole kind of double knock, you know, so you, you, you know, you get it, almost a stall, let it go again, and then you've stalled. You know, this is very much an acro full stall; it's not, you know, just stall it and keep your hands down, it's real quick, and you let it fly again, and you know, from your videos, you You only lose very minimal height, you know, 15 meters kind of thing. And it works fantastic. It's just terrific the way Seiko works through that in her videos. And I encourage all you who are listening that if you haven't seen these, go check them out. I'll have all the links in the show notes for this. But Charles, I've always struggled with even the thought of doing that in a true combat situation.
You know, I, I just, I believe I would have a hard time doing the double in a combat situation. I think I would just acro stall it. What have you guys learned in that? Is it only, you know, what I'm saying is it's just, you know, to be mindful enough to do it like that, uh, in, in a situation where things are pretty radical, pretty fast. isn't it still okay to just stall it and let it go and
I will say, what is the most important is know when you will need to stall your wing exactly, because most of the time we have some cravat, like not quite big cravat, but even with a half spin, you know, you can recover the cravat. And I would say on my 25 years experience of pilot, I am, I never did a stall because I need it, you know, I just did a stall, uh, during SIV. Yeah, otherwise only with a half spin I can recover the cravat, but you really need to have quite a huge part of your wing going through the the canopy on the line to be able to really need to make a huge stall, and if you have like such big cravats
which you need to make a stall anyway. I would say not as soon as you touch the handle, but almost. You will pull a little bit and your wing will stall because your wing will have a smaller area open. No, you will maybe pull a 5cm and this part will stall, so I don't think you will be able to really make a double
you're saying you won't even get to there I see what you're saying. So you really, you know, when, when you're thinking, when you're, when you're having to go in to stall or to back fly or tail slide to get a cravat out, you're never going to get to that point. As soon as you start pulling brake on the, on the cravated side, it's going to spin. In, yeah, okay. So, so most, in most cases, even with the the really high aspect wings, you can just spin it out to that side. And in, in my experience, and like in your videos, it's, it's pretty quick. It's, you know, it's 90 degrees, 120 degrees, and it's out.
Exactly, and I was used to to make it with the um, with the under, with the break, or sometime even I was using the b, you know, because Because we have some situations, the guy, he breaks the line of the break. So what you need to – I'm speaking only about two-liner now. And for sure, with the two-liner, it's very easy. You pull the B, you can make half spin. Then with overwing, like when you have three, four line, for sure, it's different. For sure.
I've heard some of the acro pilots that I've interviewed on the show, they have this – it seems to be this magic number that you've got to do 300 full stalls.
You've got to do 300 stalls before you really start getting it. You've got to do a lot. Is that kind of what you and Seiko are pushing as well?
Yeah, you need to do a lot to be a master. I think Seiko, she did like, I don't know how many thousand she did, but quite a lot because she was used to go to Organia and train there. And I did less. I did quite a lot with the completion ring because the last 10 years I was flying only with the comp wing apart of the side of coaching where I'm using some more easy wing and yeah, mainly only competition wing. Maybe the last two years more with little accro wing, like not accro wing like freestyle, because I was really happy to learn helicopter so before to learn helicopter Seiko, she said, okay, you go to stall, stall, stall.
So I was making hours of stall just to get more skills and more feeling before to go for full helicopter. And I would say helicopter is very nice because you already become a sensitive pilot and then I can use this sensitive feeling also to fly my combustion wing. So this is nice.
Do you feel like the acro training you've been doing these years with Seiko, Has it really helped your cross country flying as well?
Yeah, because it's helped me to understand better what's going on with my competition wing. And if I understand better what's going on, understand better the feeling, sure, I feel more comfortable, I feel more precise in my handling. So everything will be better for me. And also I get more confidence with my competition wing, Even I'm used to, I mean, I'm training with an accro wing because I got in some situation which I can try again with the competition wing. Not infinity, like a helicopter situation, you can go with the competition wing, it's still okay, you don't damage the wing.
Yeah, I've always thought that's really sexy. I'm not at that level with helicopters by any means. I haven't even tried it yet, but I haven't seen people do it. Yeah, that's a nice move. Charles, I want to switch lanes here to comp flying and strategy and tactics and all that. But before I do, is there anything else you wanted to say about your school or about SIV and that side of training?
I would say with the school, we are quite happy because we started since three years with Seiko. Co, and uh, we have especially a lot of pilot from US coming for to meet us for SIV on cross country, which is very nice. And uh, yeah, pilot from Japan, all over the world, so it's a good time of the year when we are doing coaching, and it's always a good time. Like, it's more like a, I say, family atmosphere. She really secretly want to bring the atmosphere from the school of Japan in Europe, so it's what we are, we're trying to do. It's very fun, yeah.
It sounds fun, and I did. The videos you guys are putting out are really terrific, so hats off to you for that, and I hope you keep doing it. Okay, let's switch to racing, and Maxine pointed out that, you know, to him, the the the mark of a really good pilot, like yourself and Julian and you know the guys that that are, uh, and girls, uh, that are really consistent. Like that's, that's the, you know, kind of consistently in that top 10, that's the mark of a really good pilot. If what we know about, you know, technique and tactics are, you know, most of the pilots say it's certainly at a Superfinal level, you know, again, these, you know, most of the guys, you know, the, the, Difference between climbing is, you know, low percentile, one, two, three percent, maybe.
Uh, the difference between gliding, maybe the same. So, you know, we talked about the mental thing, but what's the—what are the kind of breakaway differences between the, you know, those folks that you just consistently see on the podium and the top 10 and the rest? And is this something that you're obviously focusing on in the French team?
I've seen for the guy who are regularly on the top, on the podium, I would say they are able to fly with the group, really consistent and they are in control of the group. But on the other hand, when they are alone, they are super efficient to fly alone.
So if they are a bit behind, they can catch the group. But if the group risk, they can fly very efficient, like Julia or some Slovenian pilot, they can really fly fast alone, even they are not in the group. And yeah, I think this is really what makes the the top pilot, because you need to be to master the group to fly on the keep it and use it as the maximum of the task. But then, like, when the group split, when you have the advantage in the last part of the task, then we are able to go. And we always, we were quite big margin compared to some pilots who always attack during the task, attack, attack.
But then, sometimes they are stuck on the end, so this is a hard part. Even the, you see, the condition are good, but okay, you keep in your process, you, you stay with the the group. And when you have opportunity, when you just try to to escape, and maybe the guy will follow you. I saw some guy, like Yuri Village, this guy is amazing, you know? He's flying, maybe I don't know, less than 50 hours per per year. He's not competing, he's competing only in the main competition, and he's always at the top and relax. He's always in good position in the group and it don't take much risk and Like, okay, he always arrive like in the leading group of the task, and day by day his result, his building is a final ranking like this.
And on the other hand, you have some guy who want to say to to win some task, and someday we make good, someday we make less good result. But what is important is your average on the end. Even now with the scoring changing a bit, you need to be consistent on the top. For sure, you can have some discards. But if you play with your discard too much, one day you will miss some good discards for your top results.
Can you talk about one of the things I heard recently was that the French team is trying to, or maybe they already have completed, it's almost like a, I think of it like chess, you know, really good chess masters. The first move by the first guy, there's almost like an auto response for the second move on it. They don't have to think about it. It's just what you do to that, you know, that move requires that move. And then the next move requires that move. And it's, you know, in the beginning, I mean, the chess is all about the beginning, but it is, It becomes very easy for chess masters. So we call that codifying. And I understand the French team has really codified what you should do based on where you are.
In other words, to eliminate more mistakes. Because usually when you get behind, if you start really trying to push to catch up, you could add more mistakes and just, and it gets worse and worse. And so you, you know, they always say, you know, you concentrate on just flying well, and eventually the lead gaggle will get caught somewhere and you can catch up. Can you share any of those kind of rules that the French team has developed? In other words, if you're midway in the gaggle and the lead guys get to the top and they start going, do you go then or do you go to the top? Are there things like that? In other words, they're trying to give you guys rules so you don't have to think as much.
I
would say, for sure, you need to stick to the gaggle if you want to try to arrive with them at the end. But then you have also to be objective about what information you have. For example, if you have a nice value where you are climbing and you see this guy going for myself, I would just stay in my thermal and climb as long as my bio is good for the day, and then I will move. Because if you move too fast, then you arrive. For sure, you cannot arrive higher than the guy who are starting higher than you, you know, when you fly with speed apart. If you get a good line, but it's not, uh, I say realistic, so maybe
I don't, I don't see really some rules where you have to go when the guy are leaving, well
Not, not necessarily that, but just, just kind of general rules that, uh, maybe that was a bad example, but you know, just kind of depending on where you are in a gaggle or on a course, you know, if it's early, if it's the middle, if it's the late, you know, late in the, in the race, are there things that the, the French team is kind, kind of drilling in? you know, in terms of discipline?
I think the new young pilot, there are more rules than the old one. The old one are more freestyle.
And we are more based on the old tools, like I say, old generation, like MacReady, like improving our glide, watching instruments, be aware about air mass information, formation, more maybe creative and, uh, for sure, the new generation. What I see on the, on the new French competition pilot generation, they are not so able to fly, uh, cross country so efficient as a, as us, but in competition, they are amazing because they really stick, as you say, with the group. They have some rules, like they have, they always need to have some pilot be below them, so you use information.
If you have the guy used by the other, you will lose one moment, but if you have the guy making the game, you have like 10 pilots below you, you just use them. Then at your level, you just find the good pilot to follow
Then step by step, it will be more helpful for you to catch the top pilot lot, but if you go like crazy in front, for sure you have less chance to find the thermal, or you will take more time, and then when you find the thermal, the guy will just catch you, and uh, you just take risks for nothing. So I think the new one, new generation, they're a little bit, they're more disciplined than, uh, the the old one. So we, we are learning from them anyway now.
this is
the The game, you always have some young coming, and they catch your experience or knowledge, but you have to catch their spirit, their experience and knowledge as well. Otherwise, they just overtook you.
Give us some advice for pilots that are just getting into competitions. What should you focus on? What are some of the things that you'd want to pass on to maybe that younger generation or even the older generation that's just discovering comps?
For I would say, don't try to make a result, try to make a great performance. So I would say, if you focus on the results, it just give you a say excitation, or some stress, or some stuff like this. If you are focused on the performance, you will be focused on the process, like how you have to be ready on takeoff, how you have to manage your position, and your timing to get to be be at the right position for the start, and like then, okay, this kind of stuff during all the tasks. And if you step by step, you will make a good, good process to arrive to goal. Maybe, okay, maybe you arrive, I don't know, 20-30 minutes after the first, no problem.
After, you will reduce your margin, you will improve your tactics, you will fly maybe a little bit faster on the part where you know you you can fly faster, and step by step, you will just catch the top pilot. But don't, uh, don't focus on the results. I would say results can be a final goal, but then you have to build some
second level or third level goal to to improve your skills improve your tactics improve the way The way you find the information in the air, how you use it to be more efficient.
So you should have been down in Brazil right now competing in the Superfinal, which was canceled, of course, because Corona. Was there any kind of things you were working on before you went in terms of, are there things you do, either mental exercises or physical exercises or anything to help? What do you do to get prepared for something like the Superfinal or a World Cup, you know, a high-level race?
So the last four months before going to Brazil, I was in office every day. So I'd say I did two flights in four months because it was wintertime here and every day it was good weather. I was working and when it was a race day, it was raining or snowing. So it was a bad timing this year. And I spent more time skipping in the garage than flying. So I was really physically fully prepared to fly the new wing. And so what we do before going to the comp? So we have all the experience on track from the previous competition there.
So our coach is making a crazy job. like it takes all the data from the last maybe five or six comps in Castelo and we have some track coming from CU, we have some debriefing with information, how was the condition, how was the race this day, so we can introduce ourselves on the topography, on the horology of what we can can, uh, what you can face. I have experience from two comp in Castello, and then what I tried with myself when I'm not flying for a long time, I just use map to set some, you see, yes, some tasks, even maps in the Alps, you know, and just to to stay in the process, so what I have to do in the air to go from one point to another and like basic, basic thing, climbing, transition, just to imagine I'm flying to get this feeling, and on some parts I will just sit, close my eyes, imagine I'm terming what, what kind of action I'm doing with my arm, what I can correct, and okay, I'm now I did like Like, I don't know, 50K, I want to go full speed.
So I can imagine I'm going full speed. What I'm looking in there, I'm looking to the canopy, to my riser, to the instrument. How I can organize all this timing to catch every information I need. And actually, this is the only way I can fly when I need to go to work and it's not flyable on the rest day.
So you're doing a lot of visualization. visualization yeah
I do a visualization like this because I can, how I can fly. If it's not possible to fly, I need to to keep the process and keep try to keep the feeling and keep like automatism reflex I have in VR to catch information, to use information, and to be efficient. So this is the way. If you can fly for a long time, I think it's a good process, and I'm used to do it several times during the winter. I don't say I will do it every day, but maybe one per week I will focus on doing stuff like this.
Or even when I'm skipping with the rope in my garage, I can move my mind to the flight part, so I'm skipping sleeping, but imagine I'm in the air, I'm flying, I'm going from one point to one over. What I'm doing in the air? I'm pushing, I'm turning. I have to go through this process. Even in the moment, I'm doing some sports. For me, I would say it's a good point for me to keep connecting with the paragliding. How
important is fitness to something like the Superfinal when you're racing for potentially 12 days?
You need to be fit to under your wing for, let's say, four or five hours. And the most important is to be able to recover. So you get ready every day for each task. So I will not say you need a crazy training physically. Physically, but you need to to sleep good, you need to eat well, you need to to prepare thing, and so you are 100 of your potential. This is a main important for me when I go to comp, you should train. I know for myself, I need to train because if I train a good, my mental will will be ready.
I know some pilots, they don't need to go to get ready physically, but it's their process to be ready for the comp. But mine, I like to know I did all my best to be ready. So when I'm in comp, I will not think, oh, maybe I need to train more physically to be ready for the comp. No, I did it. So I don't need to think about it.
What kind of mental... where are you trying to get, uh, you know, before you show up to a Superfinal? And then, kind of each day, do you have any kind of routine or anything you do to get in the right frame of mind? And what, what is that frame of mind? Are you trying to be uber relaxed? Are you just trying to be uber aware? Are there other things that you're chasing in terms of where you're in, in terms of your headspace?
So generally, I would say I'm quite a relaxed guy. I'm not so excited. So it's quite easy for me to be relaxed. I don't need many tools, activities around me to feel good.
I mainly need to wake up and take off. And from my experience on the earth, I don't need to make something, uh, very special during the comp. What is the main thing I do? I know, I like to have my bag with my instrument, everything ready, uh, like when I in the morning, when I wake up, okay, everything is ready. I know when I have to go up, I take my bag, I go, it's ready. And, uh, when I'm take off, you know, sometime we had some, some tasks. We have to wait three, four hours on the takeoff, nothing happened, or they do one briefing, two briefing, three briefing, and they change the task. So if I, you are too much aware, every time there is a briefing, then this is canceled, new briefing, you know, it's always, uh, you make up and down.
So usually when I, I put my helmet and I close the glass in front. I'm connected with the task. This is the moment. I can be on the briefing, prepare the task, aware about what we will have to do. Okay. Then I put my harness and I clip my helmet and I'm in.
Yeah. Maxime calls that the kind of the funnel effect. As you get closer and closer to launch, Once you get more and more focused and tuned in to what you're about to do, you don't want distractions and other things at that point.
Even in VR, you need to find the right level of activity between two relax and two hour. If you want to be able to catch all information, the main information you need at each moment of the flight. Because if you are too much not nervous, but too active, maybe you will miss one information which is close from you. If you are too relaxed, maybe things will happen during the task in terms of tactics and you are not aware of what's going on. So it's always the streaming, which is not so easy to find. So maybe someday on certain part of the task, if I feel I will say maybe a bit sleepy, maybe not full activity, I will be more able to use the other pilots for this part of the task.
And then when I feel more aware, or as I try to be, maybe more aware for the start or for the end of the task, because I know this last maybe 20, 25 K, which has an important moment to to be focused on what's going on and to not lose some time on the on the best pilot of the day, how
Important is it? You know, I, I tend to get really, probably very way too relaxed about weather at comps. I just don't even pay any attention. Uh, am I blowing it? I, I, you know, you get your briefing in the morning and you fly with everybody else, and I just don't find it's that, that relevant. But how important is it? Or how much are you looking at the weather when you're at a comp? I
See, sometimes we look too much at the weather, and then things appear to be completely different during the task. Yeah, but for sure, it's good to—we look to the weather to know what will be the stadium of the day. You know, it's like a football game. You are—you have a stadium, which is an area where you will have the task. You have to know how it will work. As we are 150 pilots in the air, you will see very fast how it works. Anyway, but what is interesting is to know how it will evolve. It will change, it will move during the day to also be ready to adapt your timing or your altitude of flying
And in this part, the weather will be helpful for sure. It's completely different when you have to fly cross-country, or when you have to fly like you X-Alps, where the weather is so much important. I would say from a follower for the X-Alps, yeah weather looks really important even sometimes guys really push a lot in certain conditions but yeah Yeah, you have to use every window to make few K in flight. It's better than walking, it looks like.
Charles, you mentioned that one of the real pitfalls people can get into early on, especially, but obviously at any time in a career is to think too much about the results. Are there other pitfalls, other things that, you know, in your 25 years, things you look back and I could have avoided that? or I could have done that differently, so
I will say fly when you progress, fly with a wing for your level, fly in the condition of your level, which is important, also important. And then when you build your skills step by step, you know, you, you can go with a different wing, maybe with more performance, but you need to have this couple with pilot and wing always in, uh, connected to the say to always able to face the air mass. You will, uh, you will have, you have too much pilot to want to, to fly with more performance with the wing, but finally they are less efficient in VR because they can't fly as good in some strong conditions because the wing is too demanding for them.
And maybe if they were flying with the previous wing, which has less performance, was more easy, they were able to fly quite big distance with it so you have to Really, in French we say modest. I don't know English and
really accept the time you can put in paragliding in terms of training or competition, the level you want to go, and the time you will need to reach this level. If you can fly 30 hours per year, it will need maybe more time, or during the 30 hours you will fly, you will need to be super
prepared, organized but every hour you will fly you will not only fly you will learn something, you will progress I think also this is one of the differences I had in my career when I was flying for 400 hours per year, I was flying like, ok I was flying cross country I was flying the last 10 years even if I make a one hour flight I know, ok I say this hour flight is for fun or it will be for training If it's for training, I will cut my flight in several parts. I know, okay, in competition, pushing full bar at the end is quite an important moment.
Maybe we do it only for five or ten minutes. So I need to work for it. Even if I fly only one hour at home, I need to work during 10, 20, or I don't know, 15 minutes only for full bar to get the feeling, to get the feedback. bar the feedback, so when I go to competition, I'm ready for it. So it's, uh, I feel I'm not good in thermal. I, I have a lack of feeling, okay? Even if it's a super good day to make, maybe I don't know, 200k, I will just stick to the local area and I will climb, I will go down, I will climb, I will go down just to, to improve my, uh, my skill, my, my feeling. It's just not only about, uh, take off, make 100k and come back. Yeah, so you're talking about
turning kind of every flight into an opportunity to train and learn, yeah.
Maybe for sure, if you have, I would say maybe not every flight, but if you have a goal, for sure it's better because you, when you try to reach this goal and then you improve yourself, then you have some material to make your debriefing, and it's always better for, for the pilot to improve. On the other hand, I will, I know I will make some fly. Sometimes I don't want to make a goal, I just want to fly for fun, and which is normal because if you're always like, uh, if you always go to fly with a goal, then you will feel at work. You know, it's good to go, it's good sometimes to go to fly and you are like on the beach, you take yourself and you go in the wave and you, you just have fun and, uh, but if, if your goal is to go, if your goal is to make, I don't know, to make a result in competition, to make a distance in the cross country,
for sure you need to pass by some flights and do some training, which helps you to improve your skills and your level faster, like in every sport.
Yeah, of
course. You cannot only play. it's not uh yeah you need to walk to train yeah
Do you last question, Charles, when you talk about goals and goal setting, could you share some of yours? Because it sounds like it's more appropriate to set a goal like, "Uh, I want to be a better climber. I want to, you know, learn how to pick better lines." I want to, in other words, I want to make goals align with becoming a better pilot, not necessarily a goal of, "Uh, I want to be top three at the world," so
I can explain something like the the last year, maybe you see the most of the Superfinal, they were they they were in the flat terrain terrain, not not much in uh in the mountain. And like 10 years ago, I I was living uh very close from Saint-Hilaire and I say, uh, okay, now we will move like on the other side of the mountain because it's uh maybe only flat terrain in the Alps part where I'm flying, where I can train. So we move all the family with the house in this part and I say, okay, now I have to take off. It's It's 150 meters high reach, so it's not very high. You have the flat in front, and the main reach is 10K behind, and I say, okay, now I will train there
because I know I can fly easily on the mountain in the reach, but what I need for the competition is to improve my skill in the flat. So I need to, I move, I move my myself to the flat to be able to train as much as I can and to get the skills for it because when you come from the mountain with a reach to follow when you arrive in the flat, and somebody tell you, "Hey, you miss the line," and then you say, "Which line?" You know, so you have—you have to fly in the flat to understand how the thing are working, the flat to be aware about different elements. You need to be efficient, and I know I train a lot in this area with side wind, with front wind, and then okay, you understand what's going on with the thermal, how you can use the line, which finally you realize there is some line, or there is some thermal activity going always in the same way, which people call line, but finally it's only thermal, which you You eat every time.
Then you learn how to exit from a thermal with some wind. You learn how to enter a thermal. You know how to thermal better with wind, how to drift with 30, 40-kilometer winds in the flat. And this is the kind of thing you have to go to train and to improve. If you only fly on the ridge, you will never face it. And then you will arrive in this kind of situation. You can only say, I don't have the skills. Yes, sorry, but you have to go and train.
I like that approach. You got to train. You got to train if you want to play the game. Charles, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. It's fantastic to hear your voice. It's been too long. I'm sorry you're not down at the Superfinal. But I think this seems to be some silver linings with all of this. And I hope you're enjoying time with your family. And I'm sure you are. And by the time this show comes out, the world will have radically changed. So I can't even predict. But just be safe and best to you, man.
Yeah, things will change a lot, for sure. So I just want to wish all the best to the paragliding community, their family, friends. And let's see how things will go. And I wish Gavin we can have a nice beer on barbecue in Chelan.
Yes, I do too. I hope that happens. We shall see. I don't think the U.S. is taking this seriously enough early enough. And so we'll see. I think we're going to be following. And they say we're about 11 days behind what's happening in Spain and France and Italy right now. So we shall see. But, yeah, fingers crossed, it would be wonderful to have a beer with you and Shalane and do some flying together. Yep. Thank you very much. I need to get Seiko on the show as well. It would be awesome to talk to her. Yes. Well, cool. Well, I know it's getting a little bit later. You're part of the world, so I'll let you go. But thanks very much. Bye-bye, Gavin. Cheers. Bye-bye. Cheers. If
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