Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. On Monday, just three days ago, we dropped that show about COVID-19, which was a little bit dark, for sure, but I think maybe the best piece of journalism we've put out. And I've heard from many of you that you really appreciated it, and we're grateful that we did put it out, because a lot of people are taking this seriously, but many aren't. And it was just good to get the perspective of a couple of people that are really kind of on the front line. Certainly, Terry, my friend who is an ER doc here in town, is on the front lines. And just an update, just since Monday, if you listen to the show, two of his staff are now intubated non-ventilators.
And neither of these people are old and neither of these people have underlying conditions. So, it is quite serious and I just want to reiterate that it's really important that we all as a community take this seriously. It's not just the potential for getting hurt and ending up in a hospital, which would be a bad thing to happen right now, but it's the potential for continuing to spread this. The only way to stop this is to social distance. And if we're taking Ubers and getting in car rides with other people, we're going to keep spreading it. And you could literally kill somebody if you do that. And that's pretty uncool.
I've heard a lot of people say, well, yeah, it's only getting the older people. Well, exactly. And the older populations, it's right up there at 12, 14 percent, if over 80. So what you're saying, if you're saying that, is that you don't care about old people? And like my sister said, that means you don't have a heart. So anyway, you don't need me to preach at you; that's not my job, that's not what I want to do. I just would just requesting that y'all think about it. Chrigel's not flying, and he's the best in the world. We can all get back to this thing that we love so much later, and it's also our community is going to be judged by people from around the world that see us doing what we're doing, and that's important as well.
This show is the polar opposite of all of that darkness. It's one of the more inspiring talks I've had with anybody. I sat down with Hansa Rishmanik, my good friend and five times ex-Alps athlete and longtime columnist for Cross Country Magazine. You all know him through his meteorology column there. He's a meteorologist out in Davis, California. And he and his son, Martin, who's now 11, have been doing these awesome eight-day tandem vol biv adventures in the Alps the last three years. They're planning on going back over again this June, but that's looking increasingly unlikely. But they're putting together some really great routes and spending amazing time, you know, father and son, and you're gonna dig it.
They're just—they're—they're covering ground, and they're having amazing flights, and they're doing it all by human power. So this is kind of filling Hansa's Red Bull X-Alps hole that he left after 2015, and they're doing it in style. They're moving a lot slower, of course, than what Hansa's used to, and he's carrying a lot more weight than what he's used to, but very cool. And I think you're going to enjoy it. So enjoy this talk with Hansa and his son, Martin. before you shoot your gun hansa
And Martin, it's, uh, great to connect with you. What a fantastic thing to be doing while we're trying to, uh, be social distancing around the world. So it's, it's fun to talk to you guys on Skype. I'd rather, I'd rather do it in person, but we'll probably leave that for another time. And I'm really excited to talk about these fantastic adventures you guys have been having in the Alps. I thought, uh, before we do, I'd love to just hear, you know, this isn't a show obviously about COVID-19, but I'd like to just find out what your reality is like right now and how you guys are dealing with this. And to give the listeners some perspective, it's March the 20th. And yeah, that's the time. That's the kind of things we're dealing with. I understand California and specifically your part of the world has gotten pretty locked down.
Yeah. So we have already had to cancel our Belize trip. And now we're hoping that we don't need to cancel the trip to the Alps a fourth time, and but we'll see how that's going to turn out with COVID-19. And Martin, are you home? Or yeah, I guess schools have been canceled across California, right? Okay, yeah. And uh, and so how long have you been home? And what's it like just hanging out with the parents all day? Well, I just finished my first week, but I go to my grandma's house a lot and with with my classmates and my teacher, we created a Canvas link, so we're still continuing our projects, and we can communicate with each other via Canvas. Very cool. Yeah, but what's Canvas?
You're talking to an old guy. I don't even know what that is.
Canvas, it's like sort of a blog, but there are different projects and links to websites, websites, and you can talk about which experiences you've had with those websites with your classmates or whoever's on Canvas at that time. Oh, cool. So you're still going to school? Sort of. Yeah, but I'm still gonna have to go to school in the summer since... oh, I see. That is that how they're going to try to balance things out exactly? And Honza, what are you doing right now for work? Are you able to work from home and, you know, just look at... do you have all the kind of computing power you You need to be dealing with meteorology, or are you just in furlough?
Yeah, no, they've sent me home and I've been basically teleworking. I come in occasionally into the office, but, you know, I'm not doing specifically forecasting. It's more air quality that I work in. So it's, you know, it's we manage to just work on projects at home. But, yeah. Yeah.
So that was a surprise to me, Martin. You said you guys are going back, hopefully, and we'll see, right, in June for your fourth one? I thought you've done three of these already. Yeah. So we were planning to go back for our fourth one because we – so the first year, we had our destination Zell am See to Corvara in Italy, but we didn't make it. And the next year, we tried it and we got to go back in Italy. But so then we made a new starting point and destination, Annecy in France, to where was it? Zermatt in Switzerland.
And so we tried it once and that was last year. Yeah, that was last year. We weren't able to get to Zermatt, so we wanted to try it again next, this year. Let's, let's give, uh, that's I, I think we gotta first rewind a little bit and tell everybody what you guys are doing. What, what is, what are these missions and how does it work? So, it's a father-son sky camp where the first day we start up at a launch somewhere high. And then we cannot use any buses, public transport, any motorized vehicles to get ourselves anywhere until our finish, which we usually have a time limit of eight days.
And we have a start point and a destination and we need to get there with only hiking and flying on a tandem paraglider. Wow. And so how much are you carrying versus your workhorse dad? Um, he's killing the paraglider, the tent, the, uh, basically everything except for me. And I'm killing the food. Oh, the food's quite a bit of
clothes now.
Yeah. And my clothes. And are you, are you allowed, are you eating cafes? You guys top landing and having an espresso in the Dolomites or you haven't been to the Dolomites, I guess. But are you, are you, you're allowed, you're, you're going through restaurants on the way or are you carrying your food as well? We do carry food, but if we end up in the valley or somewhere where there is a cafe, yeah, we do stop for a raspberry tart or something. And we also have been to the Dolomites. Corvara, our first destination, is in Italy, so that's the Dolomites. Yeah. You're cool. So eight days sky camping with your dad on a tandem rig. Tell me a little bit more about your gear.
What, what are you guys carrying? Are you carrying stoves and fuel and, you know, how, how heavy is everything? No, we have one titanium bowl and I think we have one titanium spork and that's about it. Yeah,
we don't have fuel we decide we go dry food nuts Fire. Yeah, sometimes we'll wake a little fire, but the idea is we've just got beet jerky, nuts, some dried fruit.
Wild blueberries. Are you collecting quite a bit of food?
Depends on the year.
In August, on the second trip, we found a lot of berries. This last one, which was in June, was a little early, so we didn't have too many. But
this one in June, we had a lot of we stayed at two cabins. Both of them gave us food, which was fun. And this one place they were celebrating something and the flying conditions weren't good. So we sort of hung out and there was this really good meat and good food last year. yeah they
made a pit in the uh, like, in the ground and used some uh, dried, uh, old, old vines from an old vineyard and made the coals with that and basically there was, I think, a pork loin that they roasted underground. It was really nice. It was after that was after five days of eating dried, just dry food, so hopefully a beer
As well, yeah, that sounds great. Well, what's been the biggest kind of, uh, crux? Or is it, is it weather? Because I mean, in the Alps, you've got the water, right? You've got, you got plenty of food. Um, what's been kind of the hardest thing, Martin, about doing these? That would be between two, either weather or the first year, the Skull Crossbones Trail, as we named it, which is a trail, which actually isn't a trail. It was a nice trail on the map, it said, but then when we got there, it was a little bit of an animal trail. And other than that, it was mostly bushwhacking and through slippery water, waterfall grounds.
Yes, I'm not sure what's worse, either having to deal with the weather or that. Oh, so you're, you're hiking, you're covering ground on foot too? You're not just flying, top landing, waiting for the next flyable day? No.
we're kind of, uh, we're basically doing it at X-Alps without the, you know, the intense fervor of having to move all the time, but, uh, yeah, there's times we, you know, and end up in the bottom of the valley, so then we got to, you know, get to the next launch, and so we're just, if it's, you know, unless it's ridiculously rainy, we're, we're trying to keep moving, uh, towards our destination, sort of X-light style
Right, and and how, how heavy is your kit, Hans, on your side of things? It
Starts out pretty darn heavy, I'd say. It starts out close to 30 kilos when we start because it's got... it's a regular weight tandem. Um, I've got my, uh, nervous bivouac harness, which I used in the 07 XL, same one as Nate Scales used. Um, and that one's got a lot of room under the seat, which is good, uh, for stuff. It's maybe 1.3 kilos. We just use a, a lightweight one-person, uh, reserve because we're still pretty light. We might have to upgrade as Martin gets older. Uh, Martin's in a thin red line, which is just a 300-time harness from the, from the 90s. Uh, but, uh, it's still... then we've got a, we've got a tent that's about a two-kilo tent. We don't bring sleeping bags; we use the tandem as a massive blanket up over ourselves and maybe Martin, you can tell what, how we, how we kind of, how we settled on sleeping pads, yeah.
So the first year, we thought about things, sleeping pads. But just before we left, we were like, "No, we're not gonna need these." But then we had not as much of the wing to put on us because we put most of it underneath to serve sort of as a sleeping pad. But then the next year, we're like, "Okay, we let's get some sleeping pads, we need to bring sleeping pads." And so we brought them. And now what we do is we sleep in sort of the middle of the wing, and that's underneath us. And then we each of us has our own sector of the wing, which you can put over us in any way we want. And that is what we have done for this year and last year.
And so the theory, theory there is, you're, you've got quite a bit of clothes for flying, and you can just, are you just sleeping in your clothes with the wing, yes?
Yes, fully dressed, fully dressed this
Is always something that sounds kind of romantic, but every time I've tried it, I can't sleep because the noise do you guys both just don't move no?
we we move and if hopefully we're tired enough uh to where we just get worn out yeah martin martin sleeps through it uh very well sometimes we arrive arrived jet lagged. So I'm, I'm bringing some Benadryl and some melatonin and kind of popping both to, to get myself straightened out with my sleep cycle as quick as possible. Or if I'm just laying there awake and I know I need to get some rest.
And your, your route, um, are you adjusting that, you know, kind of literally as you're on the plane going over, or is this something you guys, okay, we're going to do this this year, Regardless of the weather, you start and push through it, or do you adapt on the fly? We, um, so we have a starting point and our destination, and once we get to the spot, we, if we have service, we check the weather, and we're like, "Okay, would it be better to go this valley, that valley? Where should we go?" So we adapt mostly on the, not on the flight, but like when we're laying in the tent, or after we've settled in for the night, and
I see what you're asking, Gavin, I think. On the, what you know, I especially for the first one, I wasn't totally fixed on starting at Zell Mc. It was kind of, uh, you know, we were, we were in Prague and trying to decide to, you know, where made most sense, uh, given the weather, um, and then the next next time around, we, you know, we decided to try for the same goal. We've kind of, Martin, you want to tell a rule about how we went? Yeah, so
we adapted a rule. So we set a point. We try it once. If it doesn't work, we try it the second time. And if that doesn't work, then we try it the third time. And if that still doesn't work, then we go to a new destination and starting point. So we have three tries to get it. and if we don't then we switch or if we do then we automatically switch and is that switch getting on a train and going to a new like an old a new zone well
It's kind of year by year, so the idea is, um, you know, it's like, for example, we didn't, uh, we didn't make it all the way to, um, uh, Zermatt or does a Matterhorn. So our plan, uh, which is up in the air, literally, with the COVID-19, but, uh, is to try again, uh, you know, Anisee twos or not again. And, uh, by the, by our personal rules, even if we don't make it this year, we would get one more year. So it's kind of three tries, and then we, we change the starting point and the destination. That's either we make it, uh, and if, if we give it three tries and we don't make it, it's we're not flying very well, or, or it was too hard, and then we can change it after three attempts.
So, Martin, by my math, your first one was when you were eight. Is that right? Yes. And how did you guys decide to do this? Because I know you used to ride on your dad's back at the start of the X-Alps and stuff, so I know you've been intimately familiar with his flying and his exploits, and I know you guys have been doing stuff in Chile every year for years. but was this you know was this just oh let's go do this or was this something you guys kind of trained for at home like you took some little flights kind of figured it out well
We only had a one day, uh, maybe two and a half hour, uh, cross country here locally, uh, and that was the longest, uh, flight Martin had had with me. And the whole idea almost got sabotaged because I started talking, talking about this idea, you know, when Martin was seven, just turning eight, and then I made the big mistake of showing him the 2009 X-Alps video with your face.
and stuff
Yeah, yeah, one day when he was, you know, home from school and I was watching him because he was sick, I decided to show him the 2009 X-Alps video. He's all, "Dude, Dad, we're not doing that, that's way too crazy." So I had to really, like, explain to him, "It's going to be a lot mellower, we'll get to do fun stuff a along the way." And we do fun stuff. What are some of the fun activities, Mike?
Well, we do a lot of whittling on the way. And we also do a lot of berry picking, which is fun. Yeah.
And afterwards, what I really like is I get to make Moyes from it with the pictures. So I make I make music videos with the pictures, sort of. Oh, fun. And what's the most memorable point of these, Martin, for you? And then for you, Dad, too. The most memorable point, I'd say, is finally having some time with my dad. Because since my brother was born, it was mostly Dad and brother, or just, or me, my Dad and my brother. And yeah, so I've never gotten to have, from that moment, some time with my Dad.
So I feel like we get along really well there, and it's so much fun, God, that. And how about for you, Honza? What's, what's the kind of most memorable moment of these three and hopefully four adventures, uh?
I mean, it's—I think in some ways it was our second, uh, no, our fourth day. On the second trip was, uh, we, uh, we, we had a five-hour flight and it was basically, it was like textbook. Uh, it was zero wind up to about, about 3,800 meters, and every spine was working just like it should. Just to kind of back up, we had started with LMZ, had a decent day that first day, and then we had two days of just hiking through the rain. So after two days of hiking in the rain, we woke up to a beautiful morning, got ourselves to a great launch, and five hours, about 50K as the crow flies, even though it was much a little more of an arc and uh made it into the dolomites and uh we even that
night, we reached our destination. We reached
our destination. We had to
hike the 10k into, and so we had, what was it, eight days for that, I think we had
Seven days for that one, and we on day four we reached our goal, which was, which was really cool. So then we got to spend three days just flying around in the Dolomites, and even on the last day out to, uh, Trey Chime, which was a turn point in the 2011 X Helps, and we got to within maybe 5k of it. We like, from the north, we came into the Dolomites and then backed out, uh, but it's overcast. Yeah, it was getting overcast and just had to just, uh, and
on the second one we landed in the exact same spot that we did on the The first ones ended up in Talau or City by New Orleans, same field.
Yes. The first one was mostly walking. The first trip was, you know, a few… Walking in sled rides. Walking in sled rides until the last day where we had a three-hour flight. And we covered more distance in three hours of flying on our final day of our very first trip than we did, you know, The um, during the five days, uh, walking or so, and um, so this, the second trip was the most successful as far as flying goes. I think we had 18 hours of air time, like I said, we made our goal, uh, on day four, and then we had three days to just explore, fly to the Marmolada, uh, it was just, it was just, you know, top land up high, and uh, but it also was exciting.
You want to tell them about the, the, the one on the, this, where we got close to the trees on the, on the landing in that tight field? Yeah.
So we were flying around and we needed to top land, and so we were coming in, and since it was looking good, my dad decided to do one last circle around just so we could lose some height. But then, when we're coming in, our toes were almost touching the trees and I was like, "Dad, what are you doing? About all I know about flying, we shouldn't have done that last circle, yeah, and you're not supposed to hit the trees, yeah." So we almost touched the trees, but we made it into the field a
lightweight loaded on a tandem with trimmers out into headwind. It's, it's easy to forget how bad your glide ratio can be, right? Yeah, yeah, it should be in a three-to-one. It wasn't even a full circle, it was just an S-turn, but enough of that. S-turn was enough to like, just as I finished it and checked the glide again, I was like, "Oh, we might not be clearing this." There's literally like a little bee in the trees that we were, that we were getting through, but um...
And it was near a cabin, and there were people in that cabin, and then they were like outside and stuff, and they were like, "Did you guys touch the trees?" We thought you almost did. They probably gave you some delicious salami and cheese. And no, just bananas, but those were really, really good. Yeah, bananas.
Were great because we hadn't had any fruit, right? Yeah, I mean, I felt that that was the one. I felt, man, I was like, I'd never, I've 25 years of flying, never never landed in a tree. And for a second, I thought we'd be putting it down in a treetop with my son. I would have felt just really silly waiting for some rescue if we weren't able to self-rescue. It would have felt really silly. It would have been interesting to hear
What they said too, like, "Wait, you're doing what? What are you doing?" You know, that's pretty extreme even for the French, even though you weren't in France. But yeah, that's, um, do you get any of that? Do you get any kind of pushback? Are there any, but are there any people that are just like, "What are you guys doing?" No.
So far, it's been very supportive. We did get a rescue called on us, uh, but that was
on the
first year yeah it was the second day of our first uh uh, you know, it was these little sled rides and it was one across, you know, Zellemsee we flew westward for a little bit and then South across the main Valley and ex-alp style just decided to put it down in some, you know, a place where the very short trees where, you know, these patches where they, well, we
needed to,
well, we needed to, cause we didn't want to land in the Valley. It was kind of ex-alp style. Let's head, let's land 300 meters up the Hillside in a little spot. Save yourself some work. Exactly. Well, Well, somebody down in the valley saw this paraglider just fly straight into the hill. And
we saw later, yeah, it looked like just straight into the hill. It wasn't a small bush. It was a hill.
So we'd already set up tent, and we were basically, Martin was already asleep. And then this crew of five people, the search and rescue, come up to rescue us. And we just had to explain to them we're doing a father-son exile, and we're fine.
Then they had to wake me up.
Yeah. Yeah, it was okay. And yeah, and then they were on their way, uh, and then the day after that was also interesting, uh, uh, we were, we were up on a launch. It just kept raining and raining, and uh, we sometimes just hide under the tarp, uh, just to, you know, we had a tarp that we could deploy very quickly over us, even if there was no trees, so we could kind of shelter in place, and uh, so then we, we decided, okay, we're not going to stay up here. We're going to fly down to the valley. And we landed in a ranger. Anyone want to tell them about the ranger?
Yeah. So the ranger came. It was raining when we landed. And in very scrubby English. So we didn't understand him very much. He started speaking to us about scaring the deer. And we explained to him. We showed him on a map. We are not in the park yet. We're in legal flying zone. and he said like the deer will jump off the cliffs and suicide themselves because of a large bird and stuff like so what wow
Yeah, he was very... he was very upset. He was saying the deer could jump and hurt themselves because you landed here. But, um, yeah, in the end, once we kind of, in, were able to explain what we were doing, he... he let us basically stay and he... he calmed down. But it was... it was kind of one day after another. So it wasn't necessarily people, you know, being upset with the idea of what we were doing, but just little events like that happened. That was especially on that first adventure.
Martin, when you fly with your dad, especially on these long flights, five-hour flight stuff, do you get any air sickness? No. Nothing? I feel really lucky because I do not get car sick, sea sick, air sick. sick. That's great. Stomach sick. Yeah. Are you flying yet? You're on your own? I know you're kiting and that kind of thing, but are you taking little flights on your own yet? No.
But
he steers. I let him thermal for a while. If I'm taking pictures, especially if we're not in close proximity to a cliff or anything. I don't
like him taking pictures. He's really really good at it though. I've seen him do it in really hairy conditions. Um, how do you guys approach, uh, you know, do you kind of have like a tap out, you know, uh, do you, do you guys have kind of a, like a, what's the word I'm looking for? Rules of just like, Hey dad, I'm scared. I don't like this, you know, or does Hansi, do you just make all the calls or is it kind of a team effort?
I would say it's a team effort. Um, you know, sometimes there was, there was one on that that last one of the second year where we're kind of flying into the Dolomites. And I kept doing these sort of hopper flights, top landing. And Martin was like, made the call. He's like, this is the last top landing you get dad. Like it's just, it's the last day, you know, just, just, just deal with it. If we're sinking out and get a sink out, like don't, don't try to salvage this one for all it's worth. And another time Martin made the, well, he was giving me advice. I should have listened. you want to tell the story this was when we're trying to get into chamonix
Yes, we're trying to get into Chamonix. This is from, so you were flying from Annecy, yeah?
This is Annecy. We had the first day, wasn't much. We got over over the back, yeah. This is the third trip, so we got we got over the back of the tournette and just a little past it, okay? So
down to like La Clusaz, or whatever that is down there. Yeah,
Not even, not even to La Clusaz. Yeah, okay, basically almost like over the back of of the turnet and the first kind of hill towards the rvs that forms beyond that
okay that
Was day one, second day hiking most of the day to get onto the RVs, uh, and it was overcast in the morning, and then we had a really nice blast down the RVs and just across the the main valley, um, and a top landing, and it was starting to overdevelop big over Mont Blanc, so we had to, you know, we had a very short one hour flight, and then the third day, so we're now, we're not too far out of Chamonix, and finally it gets good around two in the afternoon, and and I decided to kind of cut a diagonal and Martin go ahead, well, so
I was like, "Why don't you follow the veg? Like, why are you cutting the diagonal across the valley? What could follow the veg and go along the veg, which what?" When I've been flying with you, I've learned that if you're along a hillside, the vaults are better there. So I sink out in the valley and make the huge crossing, which is a risk when you can just dolphin fly along them. Yeah, Martin. That sounds smart.
And we sunk out in the 3 p.m. nice cumies, and we sunk out right in Chamonix Valley. And so that was, yeah, I should have listened to Martin. Yeah, he's got some good advice. up
A thousand meters, yeah.
We had to hike up a thousand, over a thousand meters, right out of the Chamonix Valley, but uh, but
and we still got to fly a little bit, but that got us stuck on a glacier. Well,
on a snow, on a yeah, on a snow field, yeah, yeah, just not stuck, not stuck per se, but uh, stuck as far as uh, you know, it didn't make sense to hike further at that point. It was kind of uh, the weather was uh, was, was, was pretty bad the next morning, and it was, it was hard to launch because it's kind of always crossing, slightly cross and down. or at slight moments still but uh yeah made you know it made it made it tough to to get off the next day
Yeah, so we were there till about what was it? 11, no.
I think it was later, I think it was maybe, maybe two in the afternoon when we, oh well, about two
Yes, we got airborne and then we we
made it to the back called the blam, yeah. So we got almost to call the bomb. It was getting pretty windy, so we decided, not you know, and we thought we either got a really tall thermal to go over or let's land before the call where it compresses and landed on a nice snow field and then hiked the call, which
one was the the flight where you you almost got us stuck in the power lines, not
the power lines. The, oh, that was the day before. Well, you, you saw the, the, the cables to Aiguille du Midi, yeah?
And you were seeing some cables way far off at the distance. You were saying, "They're still far away," and I'm like, "No, they're pretty close in front of us, and we'll see." Yeah, that's—that's why
having a fresh pair of eyes, a young pair of eyes, yeah.
Oh man, there's so many cables in the Alps. It's—I've had several flights where it's just like, "Whoa, I didn't see that." Yeah,
Wow, but it was just beautiful flying over the glaciers, you know, next to Mont Blanc. I mean, that's just... oh, so you were
you were the time of year where you could still be on the north side, sorry.
south side. Yeah, allowed us to fly. Yeah, the north facing the south side of the valley, which was really cool, uh, to get to fly there. And, uh, yeah, but called it once the next day. After that, when we did get to call the bomb, there was a pilot, a a paraglider pilot, who bought the refuge right at the summit, and he was remodeling it. And when we told him what we were doing, he said, well, you guys can just crash out here. You don't have to set up your tent. It's raining. So come on in. That was really nice. We
stopped there. We had spaghetti and apple pie or crumble.
Yeah. That
was, and then the next day. Yeah. So then after that early in the morning, like around six. Super early, before sunrise. yeah like 5 45 6 we had this half an hour this really long half hour sled ride about what was it 1 400 probably
Even more than that, I think 1,800, 1,900, no, meters of descent, because we started at 2,300 meters and flew down in the past, past Martini, just, uh, yeah, a little bit past Martini, uh, we landed before we got to the Sion airspace, so
If you, I mean, this is kind of, but for a lot of listeners, this won't make a ton of sense because unless they know that area. But because we do, so well, and Martin, you've obviously got awesome geographical knowledge of the Alps now. But if you guys try to do this again from Annecy to the Matterhorn, would you take the Verbier Valley instead of the Sion Valley? Avoid all that muck in the Rhone. Let's
See, now so I'm trying to remember... Remember, the Verbier Valley would be once you got past Martigny, we'd go to the south.
Yeah, so you wouldn't go to Martigny. You would just from Col du Balm, I mean, if you could get up there, you would lob over the back and keep Martigny off to your left, off to your north. And if you don't make Verbier, there's a couple, you would fly up the, what is that, the St. Bernard, up towards the St. Bernard Pass, the one into Italy. But you'd fly. I'm only thinking that because then you're avoiding the routiness of the run and the valley winds and all that stuff, and you're avoiding the sea on airspace, um, and you're kind of high, uh, and then so you, and then if you made it into Verbier, then from there you just fly out. You, you, you get up, there's a bunch of launches that are all gorgeous in Verbier, um, and then from there air, it's a 50k flight to Zermatt, and you just fly, you kind of backdoor it.
You go, you, you, if you get one climb out of Verbiage, you can start punching along those kind of north-south ridges that lead down to the Rhone, you know? So you just kind of keep popping along those, but you stay south of the sea on airspace all the way into Zermatt, if that makes sense? Yeah.
I've thought that I've definitely looking at it even last year, looking at how, uh, especially in June, the way the sun goes. So it seems like some of those, even though they're north, you know, my my original thought, Gavin, was, OK, we'll fly the south faces like the whole Rhone Valley. We'll just do all that. We'll be the north of it and fly all the south faces. But I was realizing it, you know, it's it's pretty far north up there in those long days of summer. Actually, the sun is setting in the northwest. West, so in the late afternoon, some of your north, uh, north-facing or northwest-facing, uh, slopes are getting much better sun. So I think, I think you're right about that. I think a little bit of a change of route there, uh, and and just to stay out of the main sion valley might be, uh, might be the way to go.
Well,
I think you're just, you're subjecting yourself to much nicer groundwork by foot, too. There was one time I flew into Geneva, you know, I came in on like the 9.30 flight, whatever it is, and I took the train up to Verbier. I fell asleep on the train, so it went to Sion. I didn't get off and I'd go back on and go the other way, go back. So I was kind of late and I got to Verbier, I don't know, at noon and took the gondola up. You take the gondola to this launch called Runet, uh, and it's a kind of an afternoon launch, you know, so it starts working at, you know, 12, 12:30, kind of thing, and, uh, you know, dialed up there and was in Zermatt in no time. Actually flew to Fiesch that day, but it was, you know, for you guys, I think it'd be a pretty easy connection, uh, because it's just 50k, you know, from there, you really got it.
You're pretty close, you just need one decent day, and if you've got a little bit of west wind, which you usually do, it if you got the base, you know, then you can just, you can kind of stay high, and you're still flying down the Rome, but you're on the south side of it and deep, yeah.
Yeah, I think, I think you're right. I think we're gonna have to switch it up a little bit, and once again, it all depends on, sure, uh, on conditions, but it was, it was cool. We, uh, um, I don't think it was you, but some XL pilot on the 2019, it was actually happening during the 2019 XL, so by by the time it was our last day of this last...
We flew with, I forgot his name, but the French guy.
Oh, was it?
Yeah, we flew with the French guy. Was he one of the ones way out front? Maxime? Or Gaspard? I'd say it was the, yeah, Maxime or the second French guy. One of those two. Oh, maybe Benoit. Yeah. It
was that super, super stable day. It was like, it was, uh, it was super stable, and a few days after that, it got really good where everybody had, you know, we had to finish by then. But when the top top landings on Mont Blanc happened, like, so, so we, we finished just a day or two before that. Uh, we had to get out of there, uh, for schedule-wise, but it would, gosh, that would be amazing to have a day where, you know, we have that kind of, oh
Yeah, that'd be... oh, that was... yeah, that was pretty amazing. I was not happy to be on the ground when that was going on. It was so stable and so hot. Uh, but it hansa has this helped fill the the hole that must live in your heart of not doing the X-Alps, or is you know, is this kind of like uh something you could really look forward to and fills that gap? Oh,
Yeah, this is now, you know, now that I'm not doing the X-Alps, this, this is the one thing I look forward to most in the year, uh, because it's, it's, it's on that kind of same. It's still got the same thing where we, we make this time to do it and we go do it no matter what. It's not like a normal paragliding comp where tasks get canceled. I got really, I got kind of over that after, I think, my last comp, normal comp, was the 2008 U.S. Nationals and they just canceled one task after another, after another and, uh, I just to go somewhere, you know, spend a lot of money and just be told you can't fly. I'd much rather, you know, have a hike and fly adventure where you'd make it happen no matter what. And to get to do that with my son and to share it with him is just, you know, right now I think it's the coolest thing that I can be doing.
And Martin, how do you, do you look forward to it kind of in the same way? Yes, I really like it. And I feel like it adds that gap of time with dad. Yeah. You know? That's so special to me. I mean, that's, that's a really intimate time. You guys are flying together, which is intense and fun and, you know, exploratory and ascetic. And then you're getting to camp together and figure it all out. You're getting to navigate together and eat together. And that's fantastic.
Yeah. There was, um, after that super long sled ride, uh, what did we find, uh, when we got just landed just past Martini before we started hiking? Oh yeah.
We found, what was it? Cherries. Cherries
and apricots. Yeah.
Cherries and apricots.
Yeah. It was so nice after being up in the tall mountains for a while, I had
A particularly rough training day—I can't remember which one I was training, maybe it was the 2017 one—and I did this monster hike, couldn't fly. I walked back down and I, and I just happened to cross this like huge strawberry plantation farm, and I just thought, "Oh, I have to steal a few." You, I hope that's okay. You know, I was kind of dehydrated and bonking, and oh, they were the most delicious thing I've ever put in my mouth. I
think for X-Ops pilot that's allowed, that's been my X-Ops rules and hiking through the apple orchards of Italy. Oh, it's just such
a treasure. It's just like coming across a field of ice cream; you're just like, "Oh, thank you so much." Much, any, uh, any intense moments in these three that you've done? Um, Skull Crossbones Trail, that...
Sounded like hell. It was, you know, you know the Outdoor Active app, right? Do you use that one? Yeah, not anymore, because
It kept screwing us. I was gonna say, I bet you were using that app. It's just not, yeah.
Yeah, it looked like a great trail, so I was like, "Martin, look, we'll go up 200 meters an elevation and get onto this nice trail, and it'll let us traverse while we get to this trail, and it's like barely noticeable, if at all, kind of in and out of being a trail at all." And then it just got onto it's in forest, so you don't know how steep the terrain is coming up, but it got into these really partially cliffy areas, and it was, you know, it was very, it got kind of sketchy and just uncomfortable in some parts, and it was wet and slippery, it was wet, yeah, wet and slippery, yeah. So we just, there's, it was one of those trails that you're like, wow, that that's definitely not a trail. Like we would, if we could leave feedback, I would put a lot of skull and crossbones or you'd send somebody that you don't like on that trail.
Gosh,
you know, buddy, I think that's actually maybe my fault. I think I put you onto that app before the 2015 race. I was like, you got to check this out. But what we learned in that race and the reason we stopped using it is that it's open source. So anybody using it, if they go hike, something like that, and they've got their record on, it becomes a trail in the app itself. And so, uh, yeah, we've we've switched to... I would highly recommend a little plug here, but I would highly recommend using the Gaia. Uh, their their trails are fantastic. If it's a trail, it's a trail. If it's on there, it works, and they've got awesome, you know, you can put in where you are and then where you want to go, and it'll map you the most the accurate, most accurate way.
You can download everything in advance. Um, yeah, it's it's really terrific, and that, yeah, with that Outdoor Active, there were many times where I was just, it was a goose chase.
Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that. We're not the only ones.
That's pretty funny. Any other things like that that, uh, I don't know, been, you know, learning points. What, what are some of the things you've changed along the way?
Well, we, the, the mattresses. So we did start bringing in the super lightweight, just three quarter length thermo rest. Um, you know, the ones that are just air, uh, but, uh, They have that little Mylar layer in there.
So those Therm-Rests, we do do mattresses now.
Let's see, gear-wise, this time we brought ice axe and crampons, but I think we might not do that. I don't think it was necessary and it just added a lot. I'd
say, yeah, definitely not ice axe. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't think they've had a – And
the crampons,
that's like, no. And they haven't had a real big snow year. I mean, last year when you guys were there, we had that monster snow year. But this year, I think it's more normal so far.
So I think we're to minimize on gear. Eventually, you know, looking to the future, I'd love to get a lightweight tandem. That would be that would lighten things up. And then Martin's getting bigger and stronger. So, you know, we'll probably be sharing the load a little a little more each year.
Yeah, I've been having these little adventures on a single surface wing. I've never flown it cross country or anything, but they make those in tandems now. Is that a possibility, or is that those just don't – they don't work for cross country? I don't – I mean I've heard these stories of people flying like 100K on them. I just – when I fly mine, I can't imagine doing that.
I could see in the right conditions it could fly 100K, but then if you get into a windy situation where you're like trying to push against wind, I could see the glide ratio being really like – I don't think you really have one in
those. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't know, I mean, mine has a speed bar on it, but it's kind of—I think it's kind of pathetic when there's any wind, yeah.
I think it's better to lose weight and other things, just, just lighten your gear. Uh, just try to really evaluate what you need. Like, we've been bringing a folding saw, but I'm just thinking of more of a saw blade that's wrapped up in something, you know, to keep it from cutting things up and just making, making a handle if we really need the the saw or little, little things like that, just trying to always evaluate. We weigh our food. We usually try to not have more than five kilos. We're trying to fit as many calories into five kilos of food, so looking at ideally more fat content in the food. Trying to be self-reliant for about six days is the idea, food-wise.
Tell me about your food. You mentioned nuts. By calories and fat, you're probably trying to go cheese, nuts. What are you putting in your food kit?
Yeah, we bring cheese, salami. What else?
Nuts, some dried berries, but not too much of that. What was it we had? Oh, bacon bits.
Bacon bits, yeah. Like a whole bag of bacon bits at Costco.
They have Costco in Europe? You can never have enough of those. Those are always out at the end of the trip. Yeah, yeah. We
look at what's at the end of the trip, and if there is anything that didn't get eaten by chance, we know we need less of that.
Yeah, you don't need less of that, and if it's eaten on the second day, we need more of that. Okay, so Martin, after six days of eating cheese and salami and nuts, what are you dying to have? When you guys get back into quote-unquote civilization, what's the first thing you go for?
I'm not sure. What did we do the first two times? I think, remember when we took the train to L 'Anse? We had
ice cream. Nice. And some wiener schnitzel?
Yeah. No, the
first time we had a kebab.
Yeah, like a hero. Yeah.
Martin, has there been any times in these three trips you've done with dad that have you been scared at any point?
Um, I, well, there's always, but that freaks me out a little bit, always like when we're about to launch, okay? Like right when we're starting to run, like, but that—I've talked to my grandma and she also has that same feeling, like right when you're about to do it, there's that like little feeling of, but what if? Yeah, well, then it's gonna work. Um, and also just to say in a quick summary, I'd say that the first year was like going into it and seeing if this is gonna even work, and then the second year was really enjoyable, enjoyable in terms of flying and where we're gonna get, and then the third year was also really, really enjoyable in terms of the people because we stayed in two cabins
on the way. We had some good food there and we, for the first time, actually stopped by a cafe that time to have pie or tart.
Yeah, each one has kind of a different flavor, different feel to it. I mean, you know, it's just like each X-Hops has kind of its own particular feel. Yeah, they all belong in their own category.
Yeah, cool.
The one time I remember Martin on the very first trip, uh, being a little scared. There was, this was, uh, my fault was, uh, I said, well, just wait here. I'm going to go look if this, if there's a launchable spot and just, just wait here. So I left my backpack there, you know, with all the gear and kind of ran around the corner and that looked a little better around another corner. And, you know, I said, I'd be gone for five minutes. It was probably closer to 15 by the time it was done. And he was visibly upset that I'd been gone that long.
That was just before we flew across the valley. That was—that was that day, we just—just that evening before we flew across the valley where the search and rescue got called on us later that, yeah, that
Night, now you guys have really inspired me. I mean, my, my little one's only two and a half, so it'd be a while, but I, I did, uh, we were up in, uh, Lake Walawa when she was 13 months old. I was doing some acro training there over the water. and I, I put her, her and mom on a tandem with Todd and, uh, and he did helis with them all. the way down in the water, so she—I don't think she actually knew what was going on, but I was flying right next to him and I took all the video and sent it to Grandma, and Grandma was not impressed. Yeah,
It's, it's a little tricky. I mean, some, some people would, you know, so you definitely, so some people frown upon it. I haven't really run across that too much, but, uh, uh, you know, my wife sometimes reminds me that some people might frown upon, sure, upon this activity. It's a, it's understandable. Yeah, I could see where they're coming from. Yeah,
Sure, how is the flying for you differently doing this? Is it, is it more tense? Is it more, is there anything that is, is much different than, you know, solo flying or flying how you normally do? I
think, um, it actually in some ways being just on a a, uh, on a, on a big tandem, it's—it feels, it feels way more secure. Uh, the tandem, I mean, it's just—it's, uh, you know, it's like tandems are usually like a big, uh, b glider or at that, yeah, it's—it's so it's a—it feels very safe. I have to respect, especially in the early years when Martin was lighter, uh, that we are lightly loaded, uh, so I have to kind of keep that in mind, uh, uh, as you, you know, I have to be very like cognizant, more cognizant. I think that I would be on a normal, uh, on a solo wing of, um, of Valley winds and, uh, wind in general. Um, but, uh, the flying off, you know, it's, uh, it's a UPK two, three, and it's, uh, it's, it's just, uh, it's been a great wing, uh, for this adventure.
It's, uh, it launches great and it's been able, you know, can land it, a lot of side hill landing uh on it, and uh it's, I've been just super happy with the wing, so you know, it's sometimes easy, sometimes you kind of forget what you're doing, that you're just with, you know, with your eight or nine or ten year old kid, you know, surfing up next to a cliff face and the Dolomites and son.
Don't take a picture of this. Don't send it to Mom. Mom,
But it, but you know, but it feels very, very natural. I mean, I've been doing this, like I said, almost 20 over 25 years, so it's just, it's just natural extension of what it's like we should be doing you
Know, the other thing I should ask is, what about Mom? How does she feel about you guys doing this good time with Dad? Yeah,
She's actually, um, you know, just, uh, does she give you any, uh, what did she say? Well,
What they do is, since they are here, it's summer, it's hot. They go to the library, and then when that closes at five o'clock, they go to IKEA, and then when that closes at nine o'clock, they go home, and then they go to bed because our air conditioning is broken and it's hot here, and so get that, yeah, so
no she's just yeah she's she's been very supportive she actually used to uh fly um when we when we met each other and stuff she'd actually she actually tried paragliding We did the math, and it was when she was 14, so she was younger. It was earlier in time than when I first tried it, like, yeah, I think I tried it in '92. I think she tried in '91 or something, and uh, and so she understands flying. She's got probably 100 hours and maybe some 30-mile cross-countries back in the day. So she's – She
gets it.
She gets it, yeah. And then, yeah, luckily, you know, trust in my abilities, and I try to respect that. I try to – you know, like any flying, you're always evaluating the conditions. conditions, uh, and and especially in the Dolomites, it does get tricky because sometimes it'll, you know, the clouds look pretty ripe, but it's not necessarily, you know, then it, then it gets overcast sometimes if some high clouds come in and everything just kind of pulses back down again. And so it's, uh, you know, there's each place has its, um, you know, some places those kind of clouds, you'd be like, "Oh, I gotta get on, I gotta be on the ground immediately." Whereas, um, I think the biggest, biggest, biggest one there with the tandem is you don't want to be flying a really windy day.
Just if it's a windy day, just, just don't fly. If it's, if it's light wind, uh, that, you know, then, uh, then you can, you then get your escape path. But if you're, if you're on a light loaded tandem and it gets windy, your, your escape routes are going to shut down really quick. So that's, that's that's the one thing I would, if anybody like gets inspired by this and wants to do this with their kid, first of all, be very honest with your, um, flying skills, uh, you know, make sure that you feel very comfortable with your flying. And then of course, you know, mom is, uh, or dad is cool with, uh, is cool with it. And, uh, uh, then just, you know, treat it like any other tandem, but it's, you know, it's a light, lightly loaded tandem and it's your kid.
Yeah,
that changes the dynamic quite a bit. And what's going to happen when Tomas gets old enough to start doing this? You're going to have to do two.
I think he's already been flying with me. He had his first flight when he was 11 months. At that time, he was more interested in the cows in the landing area than the flight itself. But now he's already talking about birds and thermals and cumulus clouds. He is? Yeah, he mentions it. I mean, when we're flying, he says, you know, like yesterday we had a little flight and just a sledder. But he's like, Dad, where are we going to land? Where's the landing area? Where's the landing area? I don't want to land in the water.
So he's three. He just turned three a few weeks ago. But, yeah,
I'd say that he's probably going to get a chance to do this because I'm going to be 16 when he's going to be eight. Oh, he's eight years younger. Yeah, that's a big difference. So we'll get to do this with that'll be, that'll be pretty good. Yeah, so it's a nice smooth transition. Yeah, and Honza, that'll keep you fit, man. You're gonna be doing this in your 50s, maybe.
By then, I'll invest in a lighter weight tandem. I don't
Know, man, you use gear a long time. Yeah, that's true. You probably still got that harness that gave you a bunch of years ago. Yeah, so in the future, you know, this one's kind of up in the air, but do you guys see yourself doing this for the foreseeable future? Yeah,
I'd like to, um, we're kind of starting to make a contingency plan because it looks like Covet 19, it might be a while. I mean, I think they're—they don't want to scare us too much and say it's a few months, but it's, uh, I could see, you know, I'm—I'm starting to doubt June, June travel is going to happen or even, well, I'm hoping maybe we could push it towards the end of the summer, but, uh, what were we talking about doing, uh, maybe a few days, uh, in
the Sierras, in the Sierras with cross country skis
Yeah, bring some cross-country skis and try to fly with those, because those are pretty light. Yeah, and we could probably use, uh, you know, and
try to like get around all those and sit up foot, yeah, like land end
up somewhere, maybe do it, uh, maybe go McGee's South or get on to maybe something in the Owens, but before it gets too strong, maybe, you know, like late April, early May, uh, and and if there's still enough snow up there, land in some of those box canyon kind of, ski around for a little bit, set up camp, ski around, and then get up to a higher ridge. And but it just, the Sierras are tough because you have to have several days. Ideally, you want a period of, it's either calm winds or light easterlies, ideally, so you're not in the lee, gosh.
Maybe, I mean, it's a little bit farther, but maybe the Rubies would be a good place for a mission like that. There's not—I was—I just—there's not a lot of snow. I drove up through—I drove down through, you know, where you and I were a couple years ago. I drove down the Rubies on the eastern side, down through Vegas to go out to California, and then I came back up the Sierras just so I could look at them. There's not much snow.
Yeah, so so that might be the way to go, early rather than late, because you know, being Nevada, it can get pretty cranking. But I think, uh, we were there in May, so I think if, if it wasn't too much snow in April, that might, that might be something to do, even if it was shorter, even if it was maybe, you know, three or four days. And but we, in that sense, we have to probably arrange some kind of a retrieve, especially now that you can't really, there's no, probably public transport is shutting them down quick too.
Right, yeah, yeah. Hitchhiking is probably not all that reliable either. Well, it never is in Nevada. There's nobody out there. But, um, Martin, were you in a few years? We are. You excited to get into flying? Do you see yourself being a pilot like Dad? I'd like to try it, definitely. Um, I do a lot of climbing nowadays, but I definitely like to try pivot gliding. Hmm, is climbing kind of your—what's your main kind of outdoor thing that you like to do? Um, outdoors, I don't get to climb outdoors that much because, well, um, I don't have the gear yet. I usually vent it, um, but outdoors thing that I like to do, I like to rollerblade a lot.
But other than that, I'd say the climbing is like my main sport.
we have a climbing gym called the Ruffnasium so he's been climbing there is it a club?
it's a class
are you
guys flying together down in Chile too?
A little bit, yeah, we had a
We hiked up Villavica; we snuck up there for like five rules and flew down
This is a worldwide podcast.
It's all right, that's all right, that's all
Right, pilots understand. Pilots understand, so...
one of the fun rules though if we're at it Is we got to fly down, uh, with my mom? Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, we were up there. So my mom's been up, uh, via Rica volcano, but um, it was first time for Martin to go up the volcano, and we just went up at night with crampons and the wind was perfect for flying a trandem off, so we got to fly down with Martin and my mom off the volcano, oh
That's very cool. I, one of the most special flights I've ever had in my life, was we were sailing up in Scotland and my mom came in for a couple weeks and, you know, as the the we were out in the Outer Hebrides, which is all basically just peat moss. There's no trees and, uh, you know, these crazy storms would would come through and you're in these kind of locks with the boat there, you know, they're saltwater locks, but you can get really protected in these beautiful bays. And we learned very quickly that, you know, on the right kind of wind, you could fly, you know, just whatever aspect, whatever wind, whatever wind direction was blowing, you could find an aspect at work. And it was just ridge soaring. You weren't doing any cross country, but it was just terrific. And so I started taking the clients, I had a tandem on board and I started, cause it wasn't really, it wasn't great kiting, you know, the boat thing's all about kite surfing.
And so I would take the clients, you know, flying and it never gets dark. You're up there in the summer and it's, you know, it's like being in Alaska. It never gets dark up there, you know, a couple hours a night, kind of between one and three. So, you know, you'd fly in the morning and come down and have breakfast and you'd fly in the middle of the day and you'd come and have lunch and you'd fly in the evening. and we were doing a lot of flying and, you know, I didn't have any on anybody on board that was a pilot, you know, it was all just tandem stuff. And, you know, each day my mom would be standing on the boat and, you know, we'd come back for lunch and she was just, you know, she'd ask and she was so curious and it just, it never really occurred to me. She, you know, she's got pretty bad knees and she was getting older. And, uh, and finally, you know, I came down one day and I was like, mom, would you like to do this? And she just clapped her hands. Oh, I thought you'd never ask. Yes, I'd love to do. So funny. Why did you ask me?
And so I brought her up and, uh, you know, and she'd seen me fly around with these, with the clients and stuff, and I'd been keeping it really mellow, but she'd also seen me just fly. And, and so, you know, we start, we started going and we're just doing these nice, gentle passes back and forth. And she kind of turned around at one point and she said, okay, Gavin, like, you know, I've seen you do that stuff. I want to do some of that stuff, you know what? Really, mom, and so I started doing these little mini wing overs. I come on, I've seen you do that stuff, like I want to do some of that stuff and, uh, and so you know, after a while I'm just wanging it around. I'm practically looping with my mom and she's just hooping and hollering and I, you know, and then I'd mellow it out and I because I was afraid she was just going to start Vomiting, Mom, are you okay?
Well, stop asking me that. Of course I'm okay. Keep doing Doing that stuff, she was just loving it. I couldn't bless you, and she still to this day talks about just how thrilling that was. It, I was so special, I was... well, no wonder I got, I got this from somebody. I guess it was you. Oh,
Yeah, yeah, no, it's definitely, I think I've got, you know, the ex-alps genes from my parents for sure. I mean, they're still, they're still hiking in their 70s, pretty hard.
that's That's terrific. Well, I hope you guys, I really hope that this thing quiets down. I think I'm in your camp. I think that's a bit of a reach right now. But I think we're just sitting at the precipice. It's going to get worse before it gets better. But I hope it works out for you. And if it doesn't in June, I hope something works out for you in the Sierras or something. them, but thanks for sharing your story, and I'll be tracking you guys, uh, in the future. And I have no idea if I'll do another xops at this point, but you always seem to be over about the same time, so hopefully our paths will cross on one of those sounds.
Good, Gavin. Thanks for, thanks for giving us a chance to, to tell their story, yeah.
Yeah, awesome. Thanks, Martin, thanks, ans I appreciate it.
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So way cheaper than a magazine subscription and it makes all of this possible. I do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors. We get asked about that pretty frequently, but for a whole bunch of different reasons, which I've said many times on the show, I don't want want to do that. I don't like having that stuff at the front of the show. And I also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people. And these are just our opinions, but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars. I think that's a pretty toxic business model. So I hope you dig that. You can support us. If you go to cloudbasemayhem.com, you can find the places to support. You can do it through patreon.com forward slash Cloudbase Mayhem. If you want a recurring subscription, you can also do that directly through the website. website, we've tried to make it really easy. And that will give you access to all the bonus material, a little video cast that we do and extra little nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show, but we feel like you should hear.
We don't put any of that behind a paywall. If you can't afford to support us, then just let me know and I'll set you up with an account. Of course, that'll be lifetime. And hopefully you're being in a position someday to to be able to support us, but you'll find all that on the website. All of you who have supported us or even joined our newsletter or bought CloudBase Mayhem merchandise, t-shirts or hats or anything, you should be all set up. You should have an account and you should be able to access all that bonus material now. Thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next show. Thank you.