Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. My guest today is Manu Bonte. He's a French master paragliding instructor with the APPI system, which he was really integral in developing and still is. A great educational syllabus and system that is now in, I believe, 100 countries. And he and his wife also guide XC tours. They've been doing this for more than 10 years. They have a really kind of a unique system. Sounds fantastic, actually. But they operate all over the world. They operate in Greece, Macedonia, and Turkey. Actually, today I was talking to him down in Colombia. He's been operating down the Calca Valley for quite a long time. He's discovered quite a few routes down there and does these 15-day courses that are really grounded in aesthetic and safety and the mental aspects of flying XC more so than otherwise.
So, I think he's a really good guy. So, a really cool take. I'm a very cool person who's been at this game a very long time. So, please enjoy this conversation with Manu Bonte.
Manu, thanks for coming on the show. We have been working at this for several weeks now. And when we started, you were down in Colombia. And I understand you're still in Colombia guiding some tours. How are things going down there? And hello.
Thank you. Hello. Hello, Gavin. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's so cool. It's great to be in your podcast. Yeah, I'm still in Colombia. I'm working here guiding cross country clinics, working with my wife, Monique. If you want to have an idea about the way we work, at the beginning, Monique, my wife, and I, we were traveling the world for years in search of places to fly. And our criteria were originality of the place we fly, aesthetics. cross country potential. And also, we like also, you know, trek and fly or climb and fly adventure. And when we decided to go pro, what we wanted to offer to our clients is, above all, you know, share and discover nice, original places we personally know very well and progress.
And about Colombia, we were among the first, you know, to bring pilot in Colombia 10 years ago. Now, of course, it'd be... It became more popular, but there are still places we fly where we are the only foreign pilot to fly there. So, this is basically what we do in Colombia.
And how long are the tours and what are the kind of objectives?
The tour we do, the projects of our clinics is connected with that vision of the flying we have. It's the search of aesthetical flights and progression. So, it's typically 15 days. And the clinic is based, you know, on basically on the tour. The clients, they discover a place. They fly that place, local cross country, a couple of days. And then we try to reach the next place in flight. And this helps the pilots to get usually the knowledge of several areas. And eventually, we try to connect them together. So, it's fun.
There is a taste of discovering. But also, what is interesting in that is that we put the pilots in the situation to apply the teaching tips we give them in different terrains. So, this is basically the way we work.
So, that, I mean, Roldanillo and that area, the Calca Valley, must be terrific for that. Yeah, because you've got the mountain aspect. And the flatland aspect. Are both of you teaching? Or you're both in the air with the clients all the time?
Yes, definitely. So, first of all, you know, the area is not the area we spend most time. Usually, we make, let's say, the tour is a long, let's say, 400-kilometer trip from Medellin to Cali. Cali, Medellin, you know, stuff like that. Wow. So, there are a lot of terrain. We fly that are totally different, like the valley. It's not like if we would fly only, I would say, Pideginche, Roldanillo, if you know the place, and San Manuel, you know, for instance. We go in totally different terrain. And, of course, you know, when we do this type of, I would call that like something like cross country touring, you know.
The safety is essential. So, the keys we have for the safety. The key for the safety is, first of all, we are two guides in the air. We manage little groups. It's three to four clients maximum per guide. And we build groups with homogenic level. And as you were mentioning, the choice of the site, you know, sites that allow to escape from the mountain to get in flat area are interesting. If it's too turbulent in the mountain, then we escape in the flat. And we keep a good safety level. And, of course, for the safety, for me, the main point is working as the organizer, the guide, you know, instructor, working on pilots' autonomy.
This is, for me, a key point, you know, because even if you have, let's say, only eight clients and two guides in the air, it's always possible, you know, one pilot escapes. And if you give him, you know. If the key is to ensure his own autonomy, then, you know, you have a good safety level.
And where else in the world? Because I understand you guys are doing this pretty year round. So, where else are you going? Have you got kind of a system for, you know, you spend a couple months in Colombia and then where else do you go?
So, we work in Colombia. We work in Argentina. We work in Dominican Republic sometimes. And then we have also activity in the Balkans, in Macedonia, around Crucevo, Albania, Greece. Greece is also a perfect place to work on that. And when I was talking about pilots' autonomy, I'm thinking about it is mainly based, you know, like a few points. Maybe we work on, you know. You know, to get good autonomy in the pilots. The first point is the briefing quality.
In the briefing, what is important on our point of view is to set a challenging but doable project according to the conditions. But also to the technical level, the state of mind of the pilots. And above all, have them understand alternative project option. So, see if a pilot at one moment. Is isolated from the group. He doesn't stick on the preset project, you know, at all costs, which might be a source of exposure.
So, the pilots, they must get the necessary knowledge to take the good decision. Terrain knowledge, danger zone, exit door, landing option, plan B, plan C. This is all that terrain and route knowledge we have for flying there for a long time. And we spend our time. We're trying to open new routes. We spend our time bombing out everywhere. So, we share this with them.
And also, the ability to put the guys in the state of mind to adopt actually the good attitude. This is basically an equilibrium between motivation and safety. You know, the guys are usually highly motivated and also with the group, you know. They get, you know, maybe sometimes over motivated. But put them, you know, in this good state of mind. And I believe the key word is the following. Would the pilot or the pilots be able to achieve the project without us? Or even, I would say, achieve a nice flight even if it's different of the project that has been set, you know. I mean, if we could answer yes, that means that in many ways the objective is reached.
So, it sounds to me a little bit. I spent quite a bit of time in the late 90s instructing for Howard Bound. And these were typically month-long courses where in the beginning, the instructor team, there was always two instructors and usually 10 students. In the beginning, you were very involved. You know, you're teaching them all the kind of skills to live in nature. So, from cooking and, you know, how to put ingredients into a pan. And not burn stuff to navigation and compass and reading terrain maps. And then as time goes by, you step out more and more and more. And as the autonomy of the students would increase. Is that kind of the objective? Are you, in a sense, pulling out a little bit as time goes by?
As they get more capable, more confident, more skilled?
Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, most of the guys, I'm sure you're aware that. Most of the guys that go for a cross country clinic, they are super focused on making their personal best, you know. And that becomes, you know, their main objective.
It's quite easy to remote control a group of pilots and have them achieve that. You know, like you can really, you know. Sure. Go here,
go there. Go there. Go, do this. Guide the guys by
radio, spiral down, get them up, you know, and track them, you know, to their personal best. But in fact, this is not really what we are aiming at, you know. It's not the way we like to work. We like to observe the pilot, work on their weak points.
And sometimes, you know, the personal best just happens without having specifically looked for it. Sure. Sometimes it's even when the guy is exhausted. They come back home, they report tangible improvement of their flying, concretized, you know, sometimes by the famous personal best, you know, but in autonomy. And so our teaching is really based on that, you know, like observe the clients, identify the weak points, work personally on improving, you know. Some guys, they are too fast. You know, like they don't look, they run, they are not able to wait. Some other guys are too conservative, you know. And in a group, you know, you can see really fast the character of each pilot.
And you work on each of them to finally get, you know, like a group that is working and go far, you know, well, far. Are you... Make nice, I mean, together.
Take me through kind of a, briefly, not, you know, you don't have to do extensively, but it sounds to me like... Like there's, you know, there's kind of a morning briefing and you're maybe laying out the weather and the objectives or are you just saying, what have you found for the weather? And then, well, answer that and then we'll keep... Yeah, take me through kind of a typical day, you know, a good, you know, a good day, a day that works. It's not a rain day.
Yeah, typical day is different along the project, along the class, you know. At the beginning, of course, we start to analyze the weather. We present, you know. The project, we present a plan B and we say, you know, what's going on and, you know, like this, you know, little by little during, you know, the tour, these are the guys themselves, you know, that... Hand that off to them. We'll finally analyze the weather, say, oh, today we will have that ceiling, the wind will be that direction. We have this stability and stability, analyzing the security and say, eventually, you know. Look around and say, oh, today we could fly there.
It would be, you know, the best place. Or sometimes, you know, even they say, oh, we identified that. That place would be the best. But actually, we would like to fly another one. We know that it's not going to be the best one, but we like to fly it. And at this moment, you know. Yeah, yeah. And at this moment, you know, we let, you know, the group, you know, take decision and go for it. But it's little by little, you know, it goes like this. So at the beginning, we... We set, you know, the plan. We explain what are the escape option, you know. And then, you know, the guys themselves, you know, do it little by little.
When you guide guys like this, you know, technically, you can... There are moments you need to intervene in order to put the pilot in success. You know, you like to... You need to guide him on the radio. You need to... You need to spiral down to bring him up. I mean, it's not to make kilometers for us. It's mainly for a mental purpose, meaning breaking a series of bomb out. Put the pilot in a positive state of mind. This is one type of intervention we can have. But the idea is for what purpose?
The purpose is not get the guy out just so he can reach. 50K, 100K or whatever, you know, is just, you know, mentally put them in a positive situation. Then there is another thing you can do is you observe the guy makes a mistake and you let him make a mistake. Like, for instance, we could talk about this, but we work on basic strategic rules, you know, rules you shouldn't break, you know. And if you see that the guy is breaking the rule. And obviously, you know, it's a mistake. Let him do this mistake. And working more on the debriefing after the flight is something like the idea behind this is that one learns more from its mistakes and from its success, you know.
So let the guy, you know, make a mistake. Like, it can be a transition, you know. There is an obvious line, you know. And the guy should take the line, should see the line, you know. He's...
He's a
little bit in front of you. But he goes direct, you know, to maybe a point we said we would pass by, you know. He doesn't take the line. And you take the line. He doesn't take the line. And at the end, you see the altitude difference. Probably, he doesn't bomb out. But you have to wait for him. But he sees, you know, that he made a bad choice, you know. And so this is basically something we analyze afterwards in the debriefing. And then if we go a little bit further with the group. And they are getting. You know, really, really good. At a certain point, it happens that ourself, we make stupid things, you know. Like, we... Ourself, we break, you know, like classic rules. And so we assess if the pilots, they just follow the instructor because he's the instructor.
Or is there a clear view of what should be done? And they actually do it, you know. Like, and it's interesting when you arrive at that level to make something that is, you know, very questionable. And see that the group, you know, you have kind of aura, you know, like as an instructor. Sure. More or less the guru, you know. And so it requires from the pilots a really, really strong opinion about what should be done, not to follow.
Yeah, I love it. I love it that you're actively... Yeah, I love it that you're actively doing the bad, the wrong thing to see if they're learning. And to see if they can... They can make the choice. That's fantastic. Because, you know, a lot of pilots get in trouble because they're being lemmings, aren't they?
Yeah. Well, you don't do that, you know, for anybody at any level, you know. Sure, of course. And you resolve a lot of problems. The group is working. The guys have a clear view of, you know, the classic, you know, standard rules. The choices that are not questionable, the ones that are questionable and stuff. And then you... You put them in the position where they have really, you know, to show, you know, that they understand and they don't follow you because they believe what you do is not appropriate. And so... And, well, you don't do that with every guy, you know. You arrive... You do this when the group is really working at that one moment, this is the next level, you know, like... Yeah,
and they're ready for it. You said in the beginning that you're... You try to take on pilot... You have, you know, small groups, 15 days, but you try to take on pilots that are... Pretty similar in level. What level is that? Are these pilots that are coming to you with 1,000 hours or 100 hours? What are you kind of... And how do you screen? How do you try to get people that are kind of similar?
So this is basically our force is that we don't come to a place for 15 days. We usually stay in a place for three months. And so basically it's not like somebody will call me and say, I come to Colombia. The first 15 days of January is more like the guy says, I would like to come to Colombia with you. And then I will investigate to know what is his level. And according to his level, I will propose him to join a certain group. Okay. So this is basically, you know, how it works. So the second point is that most of the time...
We have about 50 % of the group that are people we already know. And a maximum of 50 % we don't know. Meaning we have a lot of people coming back. And so basically there is very little incertitude about, you know, the guys that join, you know. And those guys that join are usually known, you know, by the guys. And we investigate, you know, like nowadays, nobody that makes a little bit cross country do not publish, you know, the tracks on the internet. So you can research, see what he does, you know, and discuss with the guys. And so it gives you an idea.
So we don't have really like we take only the guys that have a super high level. We take something, you know, guys that are just, you know, discovering cross country. Okay. But we don't take them in the same. We don't take them on the same project. And we don't mix them in a group of people that have, you know, a high level. Otherwise, it's kind of frustration for everybody, you know. So
the pilots have pretty... You're trying to put together a group that has pretty similar skills. So the objectives can be kind of across the board challenging and reasonable and something that all of them could potentially do.
Yes. We were talking about that. That was a group of American pilots that was guiding, you know, last weekend, last 15 days. And they say what was cool is that the projects were challenging, but doable, you know, like, and actually, sometimes most of the time we did it, you know, like, and so this is like, say, look at the projects. I don't believe like it's impossible for them to understand it will be challenging. And sometimes they realize it. So this is it. But in fact, it was doable. So this is what keeps, you know, high motivation in the group also. But of course, you know, one of the problem is to build, you know, groups that have, you know, kind of homogeneous, you know, level and willing also, you know, willing to fly.
It's very important, you know, some people, you know, have a high motivation, some others, you know, a little bit less. It's good, you know, to have something like an evenness, you know, in the group.
Yeah, that group dynamic is everything, isn't it? You mentioned that it sounds like you and your wife spend quite a bit of time on the mental side of flying, which I can certainly understand. That's mostly what makes good pilots is the mental side, isn't it? How much? Let me ask this question. When you and your wife, you know, between seasons or between courses or even now. On the course, how much are you putting into that side of the game? You know, when you guys talk at night, listen, we need to work on this or that. How much is the technical? How much is the mental? What are the things you kind of have to hit over and over again? What are the big key teaching points that you find you have to, that come up over and over again?
I really believe the mental part is really the most important. Definitely. I mean, I would say, yeah, the most important point we're working on is have the, it can look, you know, like stupid or amazing or whatever, but have the pilot enjoy the flying. Feel good in there, you know. This is really the first point we are working on. And we can... We can really often observe behaviors that betrays nervousness, you know, and resolving that issue unlocks many blocking.
For instance, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. You observe pilots that are unable to top the thermal, leading to an endless headlong rush. You know what I'm talking about? So an ability to get the necessary attitude, altitude to make a safe transition or an ability to wait and get together with the group, you know, like for instance, eventually they get a little bit in the front and then they rush, you know, in the front, they're unable to wait, you know, bad observation leading to bad decision, an ability to see or feel the good lines, you know, all this type of stuff, you know. So this is one of the most... Important point we are working on is have the pilot, let's say, be natural, feel, you know, like really good in there.
How
do you... Let me ask you, how do you coddle that? What are you doing to...
We have a special trick. Ah. Which is, well, first of all, we first work on something very classical, which is mental conditioning, you know. It can be, you know, like a moto. A little sentence. The people, they think, they talk, they shout, you know, in the air. One of these magic sentences, the higher, the better, you know, like for instance, most of the guys, they are afraid to get high, you know, whatever. And if they think it, tell it, scream it, you know, and scream, no, shout it. Yeah. It's like it will, you know, like relax all the muscles. Make them breath and thinking something or hearing it, even if you say it, is totally different.
And there is another... So this is quite classical, you know, like you visualize what you want to do. You, let's say, connect, you know, cool sensation with the fact that you climb, you know, whatever. So this is other. But there is something we discovered. We have a special exercise. And we use for a total different purpose. Like I like to disconnect, for instance, the piloting from the vision. You know, like most of the guys, when they pilot and when it's rough, they use their vision to pilot. And so when they arrive at the top of the thermal, they did not observe anything and they go wherever and they bomb out, you know. So basically, it's very important to disconnect the piloting from the vision, to keep the vision, take information.
And have, you know, like something like autopilot, you know, to, to pilot the glider when you climb. And for this, we have a little trick we use. We ask the guy to tumble his shirt, you know? So at the beginning, they are a little bit afraid, you know, the last 10 seconds and they need to open the eyes. And at one moment, they feel so good doing this. You really need to wake them up, you know, because otherwise they don't want to open the eyes. So we realize that doing this exercise. Yeah. We invented for total different purpose, meaning disconnect, you know, the vision from the piloting. We have excellent results in having the guy feeling good in there, you know, like when they get, you know, a little bit nervous, anxious, you know, whatever.
They close their eyes. Well, not in the Google, of course.
And it gives them, you know, they come back on, you know, sensation, you know. And it resolves a lot of problems. So this is a kind of exercise where we have many things, you know, to work on this type of topic. But this is one of the topics, you know, like we work on. On the technical field, what we work most is widen the palette of way to term. Well, arriving at a certain level, most of the... Most of the pilots have a good understanding of the thermal structure and a relatively good vision of the proper trajectories they should achieve.
But they lack technique, you know, to get it. It can be a wide range of reasons, you know. Maybe they just recently changed glider harness. Maybe it's a lack of technique, you know. However, the idea is to be able to identify the reason and work on this. Then we work on strategy. And... Most of all, you know, in strategy, we mainly work on identifying standard cases that are not questionable. And if the pilot already applies those simple rules, he already limits the mistakes. And this also frees the pilot mind. So when they encounter a situation where actually they should make a choice, you know, I'm talking before about situation when you don't have to make a choice.
We know exactly you should do this. You know, there is no question about it. So when they encounter then a situation when they have to make a choice, then they identify it and they are more sharp. You know, if you want, I can give you a classic example. You know, I climb, I see a glider that is climbing faster than me and I can reach above him. I should go. You know, there is no discussion. You know, you don't let somebody, you know, climbing a little bit away faster than you if you can arrive above. The group is at base. The group is at base and goes, you know, in transition. I'm under and I climb with a good, you know, climbing rate. I don't go. I talk before to go. You know, those are situations where there is no discussion. You know, you should do this.
You know, we should do this. Then there are discussions where you need to wait to analyze the situation to take a decision. I climb. I see a glider climbing faster than me. He's not too far away, you know, but I will not reach above him. So what do you do? At this moment. At this moment, you need to decide. And this decision is not easy. It depends on your altitude. If you're low, maybe you stay in your thermal that is not so good. But until you get high enough to secure your position, if the day is inconsistent, you know, it's a short bubble, short cycles, you know, maybe you don't go because there is good chances you just arrive below the bubble, you know, you know, like this is, this is basically situation where you need to take a decision, this decision might be right or wrong, you know, and so if the guy already identify all the situations that are not questionable and apply the rules, being, being, being, being, being like this at this moment, you know, it's, it's, it makes things, you know, easier and, and have them, you know, identify this.
So this is strategy about energy. Have. I love, you know, identify the moments they can relax and the ones that, uh, they will be anyways under pressure, you know, like many guys, they believe like when you talk to them all and you start the transition, this is where you're relaxed. And I believe it's not true. I believe as soon as you go down, you're under pressure, even if you're high. And so we, we identified a phase where the guy can relax is when they climb and they are high. You know? Like in the second half of the convective, you know, layer, like in the second half, you know, the higher half, you know, the climbing.
So when they are low, they need to center. They don't want to miss the thermal, you know, and then when they are low, they start to climb, they identify the start point, the arrival point, you know, the drift of the thermal and they look at the sky and they already build a strategy of what they're going to do because they have an excellent view of the sky when they are low. They can also see easily when they are low. The birds are climbing because you see them in the sky and the higher you get, the more complicated it is to make observation because if you have a cloud above you, you get close to cloud base and your vision is not so good. And the birds, you know, they are under you on the terrain. You don't see them so well. So this is basically the moment where you need to be able to relax when you climb and you're high.
And so we work on this and identify where the guy should relax. And then as soon as they start this transition, of course, adjust perfectly the speed, you know, and try to find, you know, good line is something that is, you know, like key point. And so it's not the moment you relax, actually. So this is all, you know, kind of things we work on with tips, you know, like techniques to wait. Cloud base is not the best place to wait. Because. You know, like you're under the cloud, sometimes people, the trajectory is not predictable and the collider is not so much in tension so you can get collapsed, you know, whatever.
So we teach them, you know, she thinks like this and we, we try to put this, you know, like in order. And then we have the theoretical input that come, you know, as a personalized support, you know, of what we observe. We have the theoretical input that come, you know, as a personalized support, you know, as a personalized support. On the field, you know, we explain why, you know, so this is basically how we work.
So you, you had the mental, the technical, the strategy and the energy. If you could divide those into 100%, you know, what, what, what's getting the most weight?
I would say first the mentor with probably 50%. I mean, are you talking about what is the time we spend? on it or what is the importance on it you know because
both both
Mental, we talk all the time about it, you know? Like, how do you feel today before to go fly? Okay, watch out. Yesterday, you made a super flight, and so today you're over motivated because you want to fly even better. But look, the conditions are not the same; it's going to be complicated. You might take risk, you know, whatever. So, from, you know, the beginning, you know, we insist all the time, there is no
obligation to fly, you know? It's every day your decision, and tomorrow is another day, you know? So the the the mental, you know, is all the time in it when we see a guy in the thermal, he caught a rough thermal and he climbed, you know, and directly, you know, as soon as he top it and he goes in transition, we are not so much about, you know, like feel the line, but relax at this moment, you know? Like, okay, breath, okay, um, let your controls go, open your arms, press, okay? You're cool now. Now let's go again in the flight, you know? Like every time we see this, you know, it's mental is, you know, like every time obsession, I would say.
And so there are phases where we work on it. Um, I would say it's even part, you know, for the work, but importance for me is like 60, you know? Like, if the guy is not, or maybe 70 importance, you know? Like, if the guy is not, uh, good with his, um, um, I would say, um, emotional control, um, then you can talk about technique, you know, make no point, you know? So, uh, we first need to, to, to take this in consideration and work on that, and then we can talk about technique, strategy, you know, whatever. And energy is also, you know, something that is connected with the mental, you know?
Like, the guys that start to be tired, you know, at one moment, the guys that believe, you know, like, it's the last days of the tour and we will do something like, now, you know? Yeah. And so, um, taking all this in consideration, tiredness, you know, motivation, around the motivation, lack of motivation, this is basically, um, like a key point, you know, in the, in the progression and
also in in the safety
And they, you've stressed safety now several times, and at some point here we're going to transition to all the work you're doing it with APPI. Um, but before we get to that, you know, all these years you've been guiding, and all years with your wife, and all these places you've guided, you've had a lot of students, and I know you instruct instructors as well. What three things do you see that lead to problems? What are the three, you know, most recurring things you see first?
problem social right social red syndrome social
word yeah
the weekend warrior, you know, like um, I post my, I, I post my flights, okay? So basically, the external motivation, like, I don't fly to fly. I don't, I fly to show the people I'm able to do this. And so all the guys that post their flight, you know, like, I did this, you know, like, blah, blah, blah, at this moment, um, there is, uh, we don't, we don't need this in the paragliding, you know? I mean, I'm convinced, I'm really convinced, paragliding is dangerous enough.
We don't need any social pressure, you know.
Many people, they say, "Ah, paragliding, you know, that's a sport with risk, but it's not dangerous." I... I... this is, you know, I mean, spaghetti is dangerous. I've been making many sports and I... I don't remember, well, I did not pay, I did not do basically jumping, okay? But I don't remember any sport I did where I had, uh, so many friends that killed themselves, seriously. You know, like in this moment, every year I have two person I know personally they kill themselves every year. However, it's super cool to fly. I like it, you know, I wouldn't stop, you know, for nothing, but um, except this, I believe is the first step in direction of safety. Yeah, and yeah, I mean, um, you have a certain experience in the flying, I'm sure, understand what I'm talking about, and so this is um...
This is, this is basically, you know, the the first problem. Um, I believe there are two things, you know, like it's two things we should think about, you know. First point: what is a good paraglider pilot? What is a great flight, you know? For instance, so for instance, for me, I'm, I'm sure, you know, for me many people, you know, being able to achieve a preset task and get the first on the goal. Of course, it's a mark of a certain expertise, you know. But for me, for instance, a good paraglider pilot is someone that is able to analyze the forecast, eventually choose the proper takeoff, you know, in the vicinity of where he is, set a project accordingly and also consider other tasks, you know, if in case, you know, the weather forecast is wrong.
Takeoff, if the conditions are suitable. Once in there, assess the real conditions and choose the proper projects, you know, between the projects he imagined. And during the flight, be able to assess, you know, the weather evolution and adapt his project. Not say, I decided to go there, so I go there. So this is basically what we teach. To our guys, you know, when we make our briefing, we say, OK, we'd like to do this. But however, there is, you know, other option and arriving to this point, which is kind of tricky point, you know, to pass. If it doesn't work, here is, you know, like optional, you know, way, you know, to shorten or or even, you know, like if we get there and it's still good, maybe we will lengthen the project or whatever. This is the idea is be able to adapt, you know.
Above all, the vision we have about what is a good pilot. Is a pilot that is able to manage the level of exposure, you know, and and so this is one point. What is a good pilot and what is a great flight? Of course, you know, there is the magic of the numbers, you know, 100 kilometer, 100 miles, you know, whatever. But for me, for instance, the aesthetic dimension of the project, its originality primes on the number of kilometers. And I remember a pilot. I was guiding last year and we achieved a wonderful, very original flight above pretty wide terrain. I must admit, you know, and that guy was asking me if I had at the end of the flight, you know, we landed and I was so happy, you know, to make this with the group because that was the route I opened, you know, pretty wide.
But OK, and so we learned and the guy was asking me if I had advice to give him about this thing. And he was actually. Asking what technical points he could improve. And so I thought, you know, two seconds and I asked him if he was aware we achieved a pretty rare flight. Anybody looking at the track would call us crazy. And he said, oh, yeah, I agree. And I asked him if he had the feeling in any moment of the flight, we took a risk or he took a risk. And he said, no, any moment I knew perfectly where I was and what I had to do if I wouldn't climb. You know. To keep safe, you know, because the briefing was done like this. And so he understood the briefing, you know, and he felt, you know, super secure doing this.
And so I said to him, OK, I have nothing more important to teach you. Find a way to do safely exceptional flight. And I believe in the piloting scene, there is a big deal with stories of pilots doing ambitious projects where they report, you know, being lucky to survive the adventure. And of course, there is probably a part. Part of exaggeration, storytelling. I'm sure, you know, the guys that do those incredible adventures are extremely prepared. But finally, I don't think it's a good example to give to the community when when one is concerned about the accident, you know, in the sport. So this is this is the first point, you know, like in the magazines, in the media, there are all the story of people doing stuff that are absolutely hairy.
You know, I'm sure they are super prepared, but in the storytelling, it's just like, oh, I almost died, you know, 10 times and everybody finds this is cool, you know, and I don't find this is super cool. The second point, which is a problem, is finally the vision of the progression in the in the piloting. There are some sports, no pain, no gain. OK, you push your limits, you progress. It's running, you know, trail running, you know, whatever in paragliding. If you proceed like this, I'm pretty convinced you expose yourself and the cost of mistakes is often disproportionate, you know. And my opinion is the way to progress in paragliding is not to push. It's to work, work the technique, enlarge the knowledge field, improve the mental strength, the emotional control, increase your experience.
And then when everything is aligned, then the flying improves. And the results come by themselves, you know, like it's always the story of the guys that, you know, you ask him, why did you go there? And he's unable to explain, really. But finally, it worked. And then it worked again and it worked again. You know, like it works all the time, you know, basically is not free, but it's a result of, you know, like the work he did. And finally, maybe all of his decision is notable, you know. To justify, but actually it works. And that guy is always high. He's never, you know, like struggling in the middle of nowhere where he's unlandable, you know, and just escape by magic, you know, finger of God or whatever.
And so this is basically, you know, like what I believe, you know, like I don't stop to find cool, you know, like the guys that say, oh, I flew 100. And, you know, I got this big collapse of the rotation, but I controlled and I kept on flying and everybody said, wow, you're tough. That's so cool. And, you know, on the other hand, you know, the guys that say, oh, push, push, push, and you will progress. And you mix these ways, you know, those weekend warriors that are so happy, you know, to post, you know, on social right, you know, the tracks they did. And every time they fly, they are under pressure. Like I need to achieve this to be able to post it. Hmm. And so this is on my opinion, you know, like there is a big, big, big analyze of accidents that have been done in France on the 10 last years.
And it's very, very interesting. The typical guys that kill himself in paragliding is not a beginner. He's not a guy that do not understand nothing about the paragliding. It's a guy that has, you know, a very good experience flying, not a hot ship, you know, like B, what we call B plus, you know, like. 5.7, six aspect ratio glider up to, you know, like 6.5 and, you know, it's targets, you know, on this type of guy flying typically between 60 and 100 hour a year, which is not nothing. Okay. And this is typically the guy that kills himself, you know, in paragliding.
He has a lot of years experience. He does cross country, made SIV, you know. Has knowledge and stuff and kills himself. And so it's very interesting to study, you know, this
type, this type of, this type of accidentology, you know, like analyze of accident. And it's the same, you know, when we work with our client, many times the guys arrive to the clinic, as I said, obsessed by making their personal best. And it's a main objective. And the idea when we make the briefing. And the debriefing is really to change their vision and you can do it as an instructor, you know, like if your briefing and your debriefing is based on what's going to improve today, then, you know, the question of the numbers passed on the second, you know, like screen, you know, in the back, you know, and, and it naturally goes, you know, in the, in the, in the, you know, in the back.
And the guys are most more focused. And they, they are, their happiness is connected to is, um, let's say, how's that been improved? You know, they have been able to improve the points you have been able to identify, you know, and to create, like they had a weakness, you know, at that point. And so when they see that they improve this, then, you know, it's good. And then, as I said before, you know, eventually, you know, the, the, the personal bet comes, you know, but it. It was not the goal anymore. You know, it's the goal is feel good in the air, fly, fly nicely. Okay. I flew 100 kilometer and I made five low save.
Oh, cool. You are good. You have been able, you know, to make low save. However, you know, is this, is this cool? Is this a proof of success? You know, like, because if you're able to fly 100 kilometer and make zero low save, because you took all the time, the good decision. At this moment, who is a better pilot? Yeah. So being able to escape from a low save, you know, in Columbia, 60 meter from the ground, 180 feet, you know, it's like, wow, you know, you're super happy. But each time you lose your energy and it's not a proof of, I would say, smart decision. Right. And when you are able to put the guys, you know, in this type of state of mind. Not only you improve that general.
Efficiency performance, but also, you know, you have them fly safer. So that's quite cool.
Very well, very well said. I've often said on the show that, you know, I'm sure one of the tools you must use after flying, you know, to analyze and to give feedback are the databases, you know, things like X contest. They're, they're incredibly powerful and they're, they're fantastic tools, but there are, there's a dark side to them as well. Isn't there? And when you, I mean, I, I, there's so many synergies with life with flying. I find them everywhere, but the chasing kilometers and chasing distance or chasing your personal best is just the same as buying a bigger house or a better car. You know, they, they're, the end result doesn't change who you are. It doesn't change your level of enjoyment or joy or happiness whatsoever.
We know it's a fool's game and yet we do it, you know? And I think if you're, if you instead fly for everything. I mean, that's, that's a pursuit that has no end. There's no, it just, you know, you, you, you land and you've broken your personal best and then you just have to break another personal best. Where does that lead? You know, it doesn't lead anywhere. So it's, you know, if you fly for, like you said, if you fly for the aesthetic or you fly to, uh, there's so many other things to fly for, to get more enjoyment, just fly to get better and enjoy that from the day, uh, is, uh, is a goal. It's a goal that you can reach.
Yes. Well, you said it has no hand, but it has also no meaning, you know, perfectly that, you know, like is that day, uh, doing the, uh, classical, uh, 60 kilometer triangle around your home, uh, is so easy. And the next day is going to be extremely difficult, you know, to, to achieve it, you know, like, um, the kilometers are just, uh, doesn't make sense, you know? Unless you are, you know, in a kind of competition where all the guys are on the same task the same day, you know, whatever, but basically, um, from the beginning, if you state to the guys that, okay, today we go on a 40 K project, but it's beautiful, but it's complicated, you know, and it's original.
Very little people flew. It's that truth. And it's a road that you opened, blah, blah, blah, blah. And almost nobody went on that route. And then, you know, the guys, they touched the fact that, um, kilometers are not the point. What is the point is the beauty of the project, the originality of the project, the beauty of the landscape, you know, where do you fly? And it's typically here in Columbia. Like if you really want to fly kilometers, you go to a world than you, and you stay in world than you, because it's definitely the place where. You can make, you know, best flying, you know, take the best, you know, like when you can fly, you know, let's say 50 kilometer in Antioquia, you see people shitting 150, you know, but I wouldn't trade.
I can fly, you know, like the magic triangle, like, uh, where you pass, you know, along, you know, incredible landscapes and tricky, you know, place where you need to be clever and stuff. And, you know, like.
So, um, it's cool to do 150, I like it too, you know, but it's just, you know, to have the guy touch with a finger, uh, you know, like making that distance in that place, you know, requires much more, you know, that maybe three times more distance in another place. And so there's not so much focus about it, then it's, it's just a question of education, you know, like. Uh, you know, I, there is the, record chasing stuff, you know, all the magazines. And so all the pilots they step, you know, on this and as a training unit to fly 100 K, 200 K trend with K, whatever.
But, um, if you change, you know, it's a vision and say, okay, what do you think about that flight? Well, yeah, it's wrong. It's wrong, but it has virtually no interest. Right. so they change the change opinion and
That's it, and when you were talking about, you know, what you can find, you know, an X contest and stuff, so it's a tool that is quite interesting. It's a friend of mine, he developed an application called X Analytics, so that would analyze your flight, and when you make a group flight and you analyze, you know, the flights they share, basically, you know, I will make it roughly, you know, they share the flight in four, uh, four parts, in fact eight, you know, but basically, you know, four interesting part. One part is the climbing, one part is the transition, one part is the line, and one part is the searching.
You understand what I mean? And when you search, you know, like you're not really climbing, and at one moment you, you, you're circling, but you don't climb, you know, and at one moment, you know, you find the thermal and you climb, so this is time you lose basically. And then the climbing, you can analyze what was your climb rate, and it's really amazing, you know, between two pilots, uh, between the best and the worst pilot in climbing in a group of eight, you have one guy that is climbing, you know, twice as fast as the other one, clearly I'm showing bumps, you know, he's understand same. And in transition, you know, basically what was your glide in transition? So if the guys they have virtually gliders that are pretty much, you know, the same aspect ratio, uh
the ones that exits a little bit better from the thermal. We work on that, by the way. You know, like, uh, what speed exit the thermal? You know, where exit the thermal, blah, blah, blah. And between one guy that exits, you know, properly the thermal, and one guy that do not exit properly the thermal with the bad speed, bad, you know, uh, place, and in, in a few seconds, it can be, we can get, you know, like, uh, 20, 30 meter difference, you know? So this impacts, you know, on finally the glide ratio. And when you compare this, you know, I'm in, in this, um, way, um, I'm not a competition guy, you know, but I like to fly my glider at its best, you know, like for this.
And this is also what I try to give to the people. I say, we are not here, you know, to, to go a little bit further than our friends; we are here to go far together, or to make a nice project together, you know? And, but basically be able to Um, fly the glider at its best, you know? It's, um, it's a key point and basically this little application, uh, really helps, you know, uh, for the guys, you know, compared to the group measure, you know, the, how they improve, um, how fast, you know, what is their average climbing rate in the, um, how long did they, uh, waste time before to center properly the thermal and climb?
Um, how was their, uh, climb? And what is the part of line, you know, like, um, the part of the flying you fly straight with a glide angle that is better than the natural glide angle of your glider? Like, you have a line, you know, climb, you know, or you don't, you just level or you go down, but not like at glide of, you know, eight, nine, or whatever, but rather 25. So this is, I have a line. So basically, this, this little tool is not a tool that would, um, push the guy, you know, to take risk, but, um, That shows the guy how good, uh, how
good they fly, basically. You know, so technically, you know, like it's not about, you know, like, uh, old choice, you know, but technically, you know, how, how is, how good they flew? So, um, that, that's interesting. I believe, you know, it's, uh, one of the tools that is interesting, and do not push the people, you know, in the on the dark side, you know, of the parading, like taking risk, getting low, or whatever.
Before we jump to your work in APPI, that we—we went down the line there of the the things that you're seeing that cause problems. Did we finish there? Is it—you talked about kind of the social, you know, trying to put stuff out on social media. I talked about chasing kilometers. Did we miss anything? I
think it's really the main problem. I really believe I don't, I don't believe the guy kills himself because they, they didn't understand what was going on. I don't understand. The guy, they kill themselves because technically, well, technically at one moment they are not at the level, you know? But um, and it's, it's a whole mix between what, what project you set according, you know, to your abilities, to your state of mind, and what glider you fly according to your abilities to the conditions, you know? And then you know, you know what you're doing, and then you know what you're, you know, you fly in, and what is, what are the safety margin you take?
Yeah, I'm sure if you, yeah, I'm sure if you think about it, most of the guy, you know, that impacted on the ground, they had a major collapse close to the ground. Sure, yeah. So this is at one moment they were flying a glider that was too tricky for them in con in, well, There is a mix between the conditions at that place, the safety margin they had towards the terrain, and uh, the technical level required to fly that gear, you know, in those conditions. So, and and also, you know, in, you know, what, what was, you know, the emotional state, you know, like tired, you know, motivated, over-motivated, you know, whatever.
So, at that moment, so it mixed between all this, and so this situation, basically, it's, it's always connected when you want, probably, you know, to prove something, you know, um, most of all to other people than to yourself, and
Well, there are some people that are pushing for themselves, for sure, you know, but and and what the people think and what the people look at, it doesn't matter to them, you know, but uh, and last year I had a very good friend of mine; he killed himself, you know, in the valley, and he was 100 percent, you know, for instance, in this type of situation, like posting his flight, you know, and being super focused on what the people would, you know, think about what he was doing, and and yeah, when I was looking at him flying, I was always wondering, what is the part of fun
he has yeah
And that was really always the question I had, and I can it. I don't want to make a generality with just an example, but I can take 20 of them like this on people I know personally and where you would clearly, if I ask you, know to their friends and stuff like this, and the question can come all the time like, what is the part of fun they had and what is the part of
risk some kind of research of like recognition from the community, and I'm not far to believe, okay? X-contest is incredible tool, okay? When I arrive somewhere, I put, you know, I make a research flight, research, I put the cylinder and I look what has been done. I study the tracks, you know, and stuff. Like this is just magic, you know, like in it open, you know, the field of, you know, what is possible incredibly. But the dark side of this is finally
um
This, you know, like, how does it push the guy, um, to do something they wouldn't do, uh, if they wouldn't pause their flight? And I'm, I'm pretty much convinced if, um, like one day or one other, you know, the guys from X contest, they say, okay, we start, uh, it would have an impact, you know, on the accidentology. I'm sure there was a study a few years ago, I don't have the result, and the two students in France, in, um, university, they made a study, you know, on the connection between, between social media and, uh, level of risk the people, you know, feel like they and the connection, you know, between that and I'm really, I would, I would really
like, you know, to see what is the result of the study, you know, but um, we could already do that, you know, the accidents and focus on that, see, a little bit, you know, but I'm pretty much there is a big connection, you know, between, between, you know, the willing to show a little bit what we're able to do and the accidents. If you don't have nothing to prove and you believe, you know, like, you, you're sure you're not gonna post, you arrive, you're flying alone in the place where is, you know, like
You know, and the air is so bad, what you do? You go away. And and if going away, you don't find nothing, you land. Is it? You know, nobody's looking at you, nobody will say, "Hey, he landed." You know,
Right, right, yeah, it's
Your decision, like, do you want to fly? Do you want to live, or do you want to die at this one? You know, like, is it worse, you know, to take the risk to die, you know, to exit this place, even if you know that exiting this place, therefore, it's going to be a risk to die? It's going to be easy to make 50k more, 100k more, you know, like, is it worth it? And at this moment, there is also something I, I work a lot on with my, uh, students, is, uh, measure the risk. And if we ask to the guys, you know, what is the risk? I would say probably 70 percent of the people, they would answer and the risk is the probability something I don't want to happen happens. You know, this is not this, you know, the risk is, you know, the conjunction between the probability something happened and the seriousness of the consequences.
Okay, um, let me take an example. I, I am on a takeoff, you know, uh, wind is little bit, uh, you know, it's a little bit tailwind, and the takeoff is not so long, and let's say there are 60 percent, you know, chances I take off properly and 40 percent you know it's not so long, okay? Well, if the takeoff is grass, you know, it's one thing; if the takeoff is full of frogs, it's another thing; if the takeoff is the cliff is also one, you know, like with the same probability, you, you, you make your takeoff, you know, the same probability you fail the takeoff, the consequences are not the same, and so the risk is the conjunction between you know
the severity of the consequences. It looks stupid when we say this, but when you start to work on this and with your clients, you put them in the position each time they have to take a decision to think about the consequences. Okay, I want to make this transition, and there is a little call to pass. Maybe I don't pass the call, but if I don't pass the call, what happens? You know, option one, I
Option one, you know, option two, um, there is nothing to land and I land in the forest. Okay, option three, I'm alone, uh, there is no signal, nobody will rescue me. It's, you know, the Colombian wild rainforest with tigers and everything in it, okay? And I land in it, okay? So, um, at this moment, when the guys, they start to think about, you know, the consequences, at this moment, you know, we make a big step forward in the risk analysis and in the decision making, and I land in the forest, and I land in the forest decision making, yeah.
When you can start playing it out, well, one of the things I learned when, when I started really getting into ski touring and, and learning a lot about just traveling and avalanche terrain, one of the guys I learned a lot from back home is one of the forecasters, and he always says, "You know, imagine how the, the, the accident report will read. Just, just imagine it. Wherever you're standing just right now, imagine if you make this move and it doesn't work out. What will, what will the accident report read?" And if it's, you know, "Then he made this bad decision, and then he made this bad decision, and then he made that bad decision," because it's usually a series of bad decisions that lead to it. It's not typically one thing, like you just said, "You know, okay, well, maybe I'm gonna make it over the coal," and then you get to the coal and, well, maybe I, you know, it's all, it's always a series.
It's usually a cascade, just like it is when we lose our gliders; it's a cascade of events. And that always helps me get, come back to more grounded, you know, like if that accident report is going to read like, "I'm an asshole, I'm doing the wrong thing." Yeah.
Yeah, sure. Have you heard about Tony Kern? It's—it's a guy that wrote a book called *The Rogue Pilot*, and and in that book, Tony Kern used to analyze, you know, accidents, you know, um, in the aeronautics, you know, um, literal craft, you know, whatever. And the conclusion finally of the book is that when the pilot at one point, the pilot had a decision to take, you know, he had several options, and in 99 of the case, he—he was aware he was not taking the safest option. And then, you know, like the problems, you know, but—but it's not like the guy do not know, you know, arrive at the position where they have to take a decision and they know that one of, you know, like one decision is the safest decision to take, but they didn't take it, you know, and they were fully aware of it, you know, like.
And so that's, uh, um, that's usually the case, you know, in power gliding, like the guys, they know and, uh, they don't take the good decision. And as you said, on top of that, it's a cascade of, you know, several, you know, bad decisions. um
menu, just because I'm sensitive to your time and I really want to talk about it because I'm fascinated about it, and we had a little bit of discussion a couple weeks ago when we first tried to pull this off and with the bad connection, but I want to talk about APPI. I hadn't—I hadn't thought we'd go down that rabbit hole of of safety, but I'm really glad we did. That was—that was terrific to hear all your thoughts about that and to know, uh, what you see in the field, but I think that's a good transition to APPI because that's obviously a good transition to the field, and I think that's obviously what you're teaching as well with that. So, tell—tell give us a brief of what APPI is. Marco told us a little bit about it in his show, but um, tell us about what that is, what the work you're doing, and how it's—it seems to be how it's kind of transforming a bit the instructional side of of our sport, well.
First of all, APPI is an association of power gliding pilot and instructor.
And has been founded in 2009, you know? So basically 11 years ago, um, the main guy behind was David, which is a Swiss instructor, and and David was living in in Nepal and, uh, I would say teaching, you know, to the Nepali people how to fly. And he at one moment he believed, you know, it was good, you know, to make a proper system, you know, for Nepali people and, uh, really, really fast he understood that making an international system of, um, teaching and certification had a meaning because more and more people are traveling and maybe one guy will learn how to fly in USA and then come take a cross country clinic, you know, in Colombia, always maybe a U.S.
in foot or maybe a French one or maybe a Colombian one and then go, for instance, to in Turkey to holy denise and make SIV, you know, or whatever. And so the progression now is not like everything in the same place, you know? The guys, they travel and they progress and, um, if they have some certification in the system and they arrive, you know, in another country, maybe the instructor has no idea about, you know, what means the certification they got. So the the first idea was to offer to the pilot and instructor worldwide united education system, and so this is the the first point. The second point that came, you know, behind this was, uh, finally to to
Create something like a quality label; like, if we certify a tandem pilot, if we certify, you know, an instructor, this means that this guy has a certain level of, um, knowledge, uh, technique, you know.
mental, uh, mental control, you know, and uh, experience. So basically, um, this was the second part, you know, of APPI. So first, the system became, you know, like more like worldwide and, you know, just Nepali system for the Nepali people. And and then the sub-point that came, you know, a little bit later, uh, was to try to, uh, to try to provide to all pilot in the world access to an insurance. Because when like me, you are, you're coming from France, it looks like super natural to have access to the insurance, and it's not the case in many countries in the world.
And so basically, this came like, uh, it became like a main objective of APPI. So three main objective, you know, create a worldwide education system, quality label, and provide insurance to everyone, to everybody. So
Let me stick on that for a second, because the insurance has been a really big thing, as you know. You know, I spoke about this before in in the states, um, so if I, if I wanted to become an instructor and I wanted the APPI, APPI label, I could get insurance through through your organization, okay?
So basically, we, we have been working on providing insurance, you know, everywhere in the world, and we have been working on providing insurance to everyone in the world, and we have been, we work on it, but so far we did not totally achieve it, meaning for the moment we are able to ensure all the European citizens, even if they live abroad, or the foreigners when they fly, operate in Europe, okay? Meaning if tomorrow you say to me, "Okay, I'm gonna go, you know, in Greece or whatever," and you're certified PPI and you fly tandem in Greece, we are able to ensure you, okay? But um, USA, and unfortunately, you know, like USA and um, and Canada are kind of the big fear of the insurance company, yeah.
And we are actually working on, on, uh, opening, you know, and and I believe we will achieve it, you know, like, uh, we are um, after you know, a few years with excellent result in terms of accident for the insurance company, and we are able to ensure, you know, that we are able to, they are ready, you know, to open worldwide, but I'm afraid USA and Canada will stay, you know, on the side. They're, they're really blocking on it, you know, like it's very, very, very complicated, so I'm super afraid, so I don't see in the next future solution, you know, for um, USA and Canada. Today, APPI has 10,000 members in 100 countries, you know, and there's awesome, you know, in USA and Canada, but um, I'm
afraid, you know, for the insurance, it's always going to be a problem and
Give me, yeah. And then we don't have to get into that. We, everybody that's listening to the show that lives in either of those places, knows why. And that's, you know, this is part of our reality right now. Um, but the take me through. I understand there's five levels at the solo pilot level, but take, take, and kind of hit me—the hit me with the main points of what APPI takes you through. What are you, what are you, where, what are you trying to do? And what are you trying to do with the syllabus and with the course, so...
um, what is a little bit specific about APPI and very interesting is that the syllabus is created by, uh, let's say the, um, educational committee, and this educational committee, um, is made of, uh, 12 master instructor or 14 master instructor at this moment. That are from different horizon. We have people from France, from uh Switzerland, from USA, from India, from Macedonia, you know, from wherever, you know. And so basically, um, the the way the system has been developed has really, um, universal, you know, um, uh, let's say, value.
And this is something I did not realize at the very beginning. And then, you know, like when in the the discussion, maybe the guy from USA will say, "Okay, we should do this." And then the guy from India say, "Are you kidding? If we do this, you know, in my country, he's never gonna work, you know, for that." And that reason, and so basically, I think this is one of the big strengths of the ppi system is not a system made made by french people you know for french pilot not off by, you know, U.S. masters, you know, for U.S. pilot. It's something that is like more and it's really rich. interesting so the the system so we have of course you know like a pilot manual we have a logbook you know where everything is described and all this is available I would say in at this moment, probably, uh, 10 languages, you know?
And for instance, we have online theory training, uh, system, uh, with a pool of 500 questions, you know? At the beginning, we had, uh, 3,000, and we, uh, decrease it to 500 and and I can, I can totally give an exam to a Chinese guy, you know, uh, he would receive it in Chinese and then I will get the wrong answers, you know, he, he did um in English or in French or whatever, and then I can make a report to him, a feedback, you know, saying, "Okay, you pass the exam, but however, you know, like, you were wrong on this one, this one, this one, and I want to talk about that with you." You know, so um, this is—this is um, like the online theoretical example.
Virtual room is quite advanced, you know, for this. And then there are some specificity in APPI that, you know, like with APPI, a little bit different, like zeros of federation, like for instance, you, you cannot be advanced pilot if you don't have an advanced si Like, because nobody needs to be advanced pilot. The guys that want to be advanced pilot, it's because they want to become tandem pilot or they want to go for some comps, you know, whatever. And so we believe that, you know, being able to pilot, you know, the glider is a key point. Is it? Is it a good point? Is it a bad point? You know, this could be discussed, you know, but however, the system is like this, and you don't have access, you know, to tandem operating if you're not able to do, at least, to perform autonomously at least five maneuvers, you know, which are, um, deep spiral dump exit, you know, pitch pitch control, um, stall back fly fly again, um, spin and exit, the spin and collapse, auto rotation exit, the auto rotation.
So if this is not master and a solo glider, you don't have access, you know, to the tandem teaching man.
That is terrific. I hope that's taken flight. That, that's really, that's solid. Those of you who are listening will have details about all this and more, and all the stuff that man who's talking about on in the show notes for the show. And man, who I'm really psyched we were able to pull this off. I can't wait to do some flying with you. I wish you the very best for the rest of your, uh, time down there and in Columbia with you and your wife and all your students. I hope you guys are having fun; I'm sure you are. And thanks, man, I really appreciate it. This was an incredibly valuable and instructive. Thank you, thank
you so much. I hope to see you in the air and share, you know, sometime more together. That would be great. Thanks, man. Thank you, if
you
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