Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. My guest today is Nuno Virgilio. Nuno is, I think, the first pilot we've had on who calls Portugal home. He lives just outside of Lisbon. He's been chasing it for over half his life, for 23, 24 years now. He competed in the X-Alps in 2011. He has a whole bunch of sight records. He won a World Cup task back in 2012. He's been a national champion multiple times, and I've been asked by many, many people over the years to get him on the show. And we were finally able to connect. Great talk with a really fascinating person who has a lot of thoughts on flow and training and safety. He's never had an accident. His wife also flies and his whole family flies. He got into it. His dad introduced him to flying way back when, when he was 17.
And his wife flies. And at the end of this one, we hear about a pretty scary, crazy story about her getting sucked into a cloud and going over 5,000 meters and getting encased in ice and having a pretty intimate look at the other side. So a lot here. Fascinating, fun talk that I think you're going to enjoy. Her full story is in the show notes about that cloud suck day. And he, Nuno also hosts a website called paragliding.bstoke.net. And the link for that's also in the show notes. That's kind of like an Airbnb for paragliders and for traveling pilots. So check that out as well. Enjoy this talk with Nuno. I really did. Sing
part of the screen.
Well, good to have you on the show. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on the mayhem. I think you're the first pilot we've interviewed from Portugal. So I'm really looking forward to this. And there's been a lot of requests for you over the years. And I've been following you and we've had quite a bit of contact over the social medias and stuff, but never had a chance to chat. So welcome.
Thank you, Gavin. It's a great honor to be on the show. I've been also following for a while. Mayhem. It's amazing. The pilots you've been.
Yeah,
it's, um, great honor to, to, to be on the show.
Yeah. Well, thank you. And that's before we started recording there, you were giving me a little bit of your background. I understand you live close to Lisbon and you were telling me kind of about the flying there and stuff, which I definitely want to hear more about, but understand you've been at this game quite a long time. You've been flying for half your life. So how long is that?
Yeah, I started. Quite early, I was 17, um, just, um, after my father, who, who always been an addict or a very interested in aerial sports, um, after his military service, he was a paratrooper and he kept on going in aerial sports with skydiving and just following general aviation. And suddenly, there was this sport where you could just jump from a hill, you could, you wouldn't need to, to, to, to fly off a plane. So this was really the early days of the sport, like early 90s, I don't know, and we were kids, me and my brothers, and we naturally followed his steps and we started flying as soon as we can, as we could.
So yeah, um, it's a long time I've been ever since. the good weather and chasing the clouds and go doing some competitions, but um, a lot of XC around and, uh, yeah, traveling the world a bit, meeting people, discovering cultures, amazing, you know? Yeah, that's—I think that's what keeps us, no with a parallel anything, yeah.
So, I, you, uh, let's see, you started when you're 17 and you just said you're 40, right? So you've been, yeah, you've been for more than half your life. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Does your family still fly? Do your brothers still fly? Yeah.
They do. Um, I'm the oldest. My second brother, he's actually also a really good pilot, although now he's taking a break because family issues. He has three kids, three small kids, so not devoting as much time as before. Um, we flew a lot together. I think we developed, um, we, yeah, we grew up our pilots together. And, um, my younger brother, he's, uh, actually a professional pilot in the military. He's an Air Force pilot, but he also flies paraglider, um, since early age, and every now and then he gets his glider off and goes for some soaring and close to the place where he lives, just by the beach, so more kind of more relaxed flying.
doing competition or XC, but he's the real pilot in the family. Wow,
Cool, and well, I want to talk to more pilots like that to see, you know, the kind of crossover some of the commercial pilots we've spoken to have had. You know, their, their training is—they get a lot better, I guess, training than I think we do. And, you know, because they, that's just so adamant that they can't have accidents, so they, they really—we did a show on this, TM threatened air management, that I, I had never even heard of, and I'm surprised a lot of that stuff isn't, you know, brought into the fold with, with hang gliding and paragliding. So I'm sure you've learned a lot from him, yeah.
We, we share a lot of experience, that's for sure. That's for sure, I
Didn't I? Didn't tell you I was going to answer that or ask this? So you know it's kind of hard to do it on the spot, but when you think back at your, you know, 23 years of flying, now do you have a flight that still just really stands out to you? Or do you have a flight that still really stands out to you, or do you have a something that that one um
Yes, I mean, uh, several. Uh, it's hard to, to condensate, uh, such a long time in just one single flight, but, um, you know, like maybe the longest life flow, or, um, I don't know, maybe, uh, the most successful while competing, winning a World Cup task is always something, um, or a breaking 300ks from your home spot is never done before, never repeated. So, it was just a perfect day. So, that's kind of memories that stick out. But, for sure, there's many more. I remember the, the early days, the first time we flew the four of us together, like my two brothers and my father, all the time, all at the same time.
It was kind of emotional. Um, yeah, the first time I won this, uh, well, first and only, I've done it only once, but, uh, winning a World Cup task after 100ks, in beating the world's best pilots out there, it really makes you feel somehow special, no? So, these are the ones that stand out, yeah.
When, when was that? You know, there...
was back in 2012, I think. Um, yeah, one of my favorite places in Portugal is actually, uh, quite a long time ago famous place for, um, championships. We had the European just two years ago and a couple of World Cups there, a World Championship way back in 2003. Um, this, I think, was 2012 or 13, I'm not sure right now, but mainly a perfect day in the area we. It's, well, it's known for sometimes quite tricky conditions, but when it's good, it's really good. Like, you have these conversions lines, you can go full bar cruising everywhere, and it's then jumping out of the convergence line and you have to to shift gears, slow down a bit, then go full on again.
And yeah, closing a hundred k triangle landing in the town or close to the lake, there's a quite a nice lake nearby. This is, uh, one of my favorite places, as I said, and um, yeah, winning at home, if I can say that, um, yeah, say so was really special. I
was gonna say because that's quite unusual, isn't it? I mean, there's, yeah, it's almost never the local hero that wins, you know, because they just, they have such an imprint on what works and what doesn't that, you know, it's, it's hard, it's hard to be creative. And when new pilots come to town, they often, you know, because they don't know it as well, they can make some pretty fancy moves. So that, that must have felt really good.
Yeah, definitely. Uh, and in fact, the next day, or the previous day, I didn't know that I was going to be able to do that. I didn't, I don't know, I totally messed up, so it comes to to to to this conclusion. Yeah, the local pilot, maybe sometimes you're too much, um, you know, you know the place too well that you think, "Okay, this direction or the thermals there, they never work." And not knowing this, is it might be an advantage, definitely, yeah.
You know, when you look back on that day, when you think back on it, was there anything particular that you feel really helped? You know, anything you've been trying to access again? Maybe a particular mindset, or you know, is it just things just went right that day?
Um, you know, at a certain point in my flying, we with our national team were having some mentorship from someone, uh, outside of the paragliding world, but with a really, um, big experience and and, uh, not just in life because it was an elderly lady, but, uh, professionally, she was dealing with, um, like personal development, group dynamics, and stuff like this. And she, she really brought something that we could, um, I mean, the whole team, not just me, uh, use in the paragliding. And this was, um, if I can condense it to just a just a a couple of, um, bullet points, what's just, uh, like realize what you're doing.
understand why you keep doing it and be totally aware of where you are, who you are, and what's your fears? What do you fear the most? What do you want the most? So, as soon as you, you, if you are true to yourself and you can answer these questions, you, you really leave what you're, that's restraining you from flying your best. You leave it on the ground, and whenever you take off, you're, you're really making the best of your flying. And at the time, I was really developing somehow, and this, uh, really, you know, um, uh, meditating a bit on these, uh, questions, and, uh, from time to time, everything came in place, and I could really do well.
Um, that's when I When, when this period happened, I finally won my first championships, uh, even got some good success abroad in some international big events. Um, and this, uh, this task I was mentioning, the World Cup, was maybe the pinnacle of all that. So you're just, um, it's what people relate to many times when they say they're in the zone; they're just flowing, you know? Everything comes together and everything comes out really naturally. You don't even question why, while on the ground, you know already for sure that you'll have a good one and things just, um, happen naturally.
I think that, that's what, um, makes it for a successful
competition, or XC flight, or applying in general, what
This lady is, she was kind of like a coach. I did, she—what kind of exercises did she give you or encourage you to do? Can you be more specific about what that kind of looks like? Sure,
Um, well, she like relaxing, really, um, uh, letting go of any, any, how to say, um, um, uh, sorry, I like the English word for this, like any stress you might have, some this, um, tense feeling that you, you have while on the ground, still, even before taking off. Like, once I, I made this, uh, this test, uh, using a heart rate monitor during a whole flight, and I realized the highest peak of your heartbeat is just before taking off.
So, just there, standing on takeoff, and just anticipating that you're going to take off, and you're going to take off, and you're waiting, this, uh, this rush, this adrenaline for, for the flying, you have the highest, the peak before taking off. So, this is just mental, sure. And if you can, if you can acknowledge this first and realize that you're somehow stressed or worried or tense, and you can, um, really work on it, you'll, you'll be much more at ease, much more focused, much more
relaxed somehow, so some exercises we learned from from from this period was how to how to visualize like you're you're still on the ground and you have a task, or you're going for a long xc, you studied the meteo, so you know what do you to expect, you should study the maps of the area you're going through, or if it's a competition, you know the turn points you'll have to do it. So one of the one of the key things is to visualize to go through it on a mental process in advance, so when you're actually flying it, it's just, uh, materializing something that your brain already anticipated, so it's it's done, it's already done, just you'll just have to go through it.
And this visualization thing, it really works. I mean, for me... it helped me it worked also the the relaxing thing the the How to, how to breathe, how to to to focus, and there are some um exercises that really help you. Breathing is one of them, like, uh, it's known that many top pilots, you'll see on a on a takeoff, just before people start to take off, everyone has its moment of somehow isolation. You know, you'll see some guys putting their headphones and just listening to some music, some other guys are just reading a book, or some other guys are just laughing loud.
It's a way to to somehow um get your stuff together, like really relaxing on your own way to isolate yourself from what's distracting you.
These are some, some of the stuff we were doing at the time, you
You mentioned when we were just talking before we started recording that you, you kind of went through that. It sounds like that was kind of the period where you were really performing well. Has that, uh, has that changed now? Was that, was that kind of the peak, and or does it have you been able to maintain that? I
think I, I can maintain that. I don't, I don't even think very much about it now; it just comes out naturally, you know? You, you for a while, when you discover something new, you really try and do this breathing thing and visualizing. You close your eyes, you really anticipate what you're doing, and you, you really focus on this. You, I don't know, you're, you take extra care with the, with the food you're having the day before and during the, the, the flight. You keep hydrated and stuff, and after a while, this kind of becomes natural, comes. You absorb it as your, your, um, your, um, regular routines, and somehow, how I feel it is that right now, it's so natural that I don't even think about it.
So maybe I even, uh, by not thinking about it, maybe I lose a bit performance because I don't take it so seriously, but things still come out naturally, you know? You, you, you switch to, to a different level, I would say, uh, when things really become, uh, the standard, like you do this
Nuno, is there, uh, is there anything, were you in kind of, any, were you doing any kind of routine to get to kind of access flow on a regular basis back when you were learning about this? I mean, now you're saying now it's coming just like a new thing. I mean, it's like a new thing, I mean, it's like a new thing, just more naturally. But was there anything you were doing when you were learning how to do it that people could, yeah?
Yeah, I remember. It really worked for me to activate or to calm down, depending on my mood and my stress levels, I would say. The music, I would just put my headphones on and listen to some calm, relaxed some music that would act like an anchor to me, like I could relate some songs that I would listen to and I would listen to some songs that I would listen to and I or that would take me to my safe place, you know, or to bring back some good memories from um, from moments where I would feel really, really well, really in the flow, and I would use this to, to recall the same, the same feelings.
So we would even call it like that, anchors, so because they really, it really has a powerful effect and, uh, with me, it worked like, if I would feel, uh, that I was, uh, too stressed, I would put on some, uh, song that would make me feel calmer; or if I would feel that, no, I need to activate, I'm too lazy here, I need to get pumped up, you know, so I will put something else more, uh, like I'm a heavy metal guy, a fan, so you can imagine the kind, the kind of, uh, songs that, uh, I would listen to. But um, when I realized, let's not be able to get too high, I don't understand. But it worked for me and with different kinds.
So I would suggest everyone could find their own. Like, what's your favorite song that takes you back to a perfect moment? Everything was flowing or it brings back some really good memories. And just put it on just before you take off. You'll see that you feel really good while flying.
And what about when you're in the air? One of the things I've been struggling with lately is that I'm thinking too much. Because before I launch, I'll be thinking about, okay, I want to be really observant. But I also think I'm falling out of flow quite often when I'm flying because I'm trying to be smart. I'm just trying to fly smart. I'm trying to observe everybody else and think about the different lines. And, you know, rather than just, you know, my best flying is always on autopilot. You know, when you – there's a lot of – Adele has talked about this a lot. I've been emailing her back and forth a ton because she's done a lot of work on flow.
But, you know, you have to kind of put the thinking part of your brain aside.
Yeah, I agree with that. I'm also a kind of analytical, rational guy. But I prefer to study and to think about. It's tough when I'm on the ground. If you overthink when you're flying, you're going to mess up. I feel it like you should more, like, follow your gut. Like, you know, don't calculate too much before making a move. No. If you have, like, a feeling, like, something tells me I should go there, don't think why. Why should I go there and not the other way? No. Just go. Just go. Just do it. Because there's some reason. Almost on impulse. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, because you – it's not your brain that knows too much. It's your own self. It's your – like, trust your intuition. Just let it – a good friend of us, a good friend of mine, a great pilot, Portuguese pilot, he already passed away. But he was one of the greats. He was one of the greatest pilots out there, used to say something like this, like, getting in the flow, that was his definition somehow. It's when you stop flying and you start being flown, you know, so it's just – it's just the bigger thing that flies you.
It's not you who's flying, you are flown, so it's – I really can relate to this. I – it's when you just follow your intuition. You don't overthink. I
think probably the prime – one of the prime – there's many of this, but one of the prime examples of that would be like Manfred Ruhmer in hang gliding. I think that just the decades that he's been able to dominate like he does and all the other pilots say that about him all the time. He just seems to constantly make brilliant moves that they don't – others don't see. And I think he's just following his intuition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and – and not worrying about it.
Yeah. The other thing that I noticed is something you mentioned, others don't see. This is very important to being observant. I've had a couple of task wins in situations where I realized first than other pilots what was going on ahead. Like, especially when you – when you're – when the conditions are changing. Like, you're having tougher times, struggling, going through. You're going through a more stable area, and suddenly you see in the distance a small cumulus cloud coming up and then disappearing. So, definitely something is happening ahead. And if you realize this before anyone else, you have the advantage because you can go full speed to this area and, you know, go over the inversion layer or get advantage just by making the move first.
So, being observant is really important. Really important. And also knowing or realizing when you can really shift gears from slowing down and taking it easy and just surviving a more difficult area to a difficult part of the day. It can also happen on longer flights or, I don't know, cloud cover, put some shade on the way and conditions change. So, knowing when to shift gears, it's super crucial. Like, suddenly everything is booming again, and then it's time to go full speed. No, don't wait.
What do you think it is that separates – you know, I mean, I've given this a lot of thought, especially lately. I mean, it seems to me that at that top level, you know, at the World Championships level and the Europeans and the world cup, you know, there's a lot of competition. you know, the, the, the skill level difference in terms of technical skill, I bet, you know, between the top 50 pilots is maybe a couple percent percentage points. It's very small. You know what
I mean?
Most of these pilots are really good at, you know, most of the aspects and they all know the same information. You know, we, we it's, it's, it's like Russ Ogden said on his show, you know, Chrigel, you know, a four year pilot knows the exact same thing that Chrigel does. He's just executing everything better.
But when you look at, you know, I was just down at the British in January and, you know, it was, it was surprising to me to see, you know, guys, pilots that had done really well the year before were, had done, did like, you know, there was a lot of people like me that had done really well the year before and then just got smoked this time. And you see that all the time. Even at the World Cup level, you see that luck plays a hand in other things. But, but you also see there are some pilots, you know, like Russ Ogden and Julian Wurtz, and there are some pilots that are just always in there. What do you think separates them
from the rest? They
really are
consistent in them, in their performance. I think it's also cyclic, we all go through ups and downs in our life. And this relates to your flying. I, I, well, I must say this again. It's a, he was a great mentor to me, the same guy who I mentioned before, you also had the saying that I would never forget. Like you fly the way you live and you live the way you fly. So what, what does it mean that your, your daily life, your social life, your family life reflects on your flying. So you're, if you're stressed about something at work or things with your girlfriend, don't, you're not so easy at the moment, it reflects.
So you, it means you're on a low, or you're not in your best shape as, as you've been maybe the last year and it reflects on your flying. So it, I really think it relates. So I would say the, the pilots who are more consistent are, I mean, we could make a poll and test this out. I'm sure. We would get this kind of results. Maybe there are the, the, the ones who are really, um, mentally stable. They, they're not going through hard times emotionally or something like this or whatever. Um, but also, um, as you say, I also agree.
It can be kind of luck, maybe just the conditions were not what you're expecting or but but mostly I think it reflects the your your current
I also
noticed something that there's the pilots who have been added a long time and, you know, they've worked at it and they've trained. These are the kind of pilots that, you know, these days, you know, after years and years, they don't have to fly very much and they still do really well, you know, they, they're, there seems to be, you know, somewhere along the line, there's kind of an aha moment and it might, it's probably not an aha moment, but it's a, it's the, the, everything kind of clicks. And then I'm not sure you lose that click. It seems to be that, you know, you can fly 50 hours a year and come and do really well still. And I, uh, I agree.
Yeah. Do you, do you feel like that's, that's kind of happened with you because you've been at it so long that it's just, you know, there's, you, you've done it enough that, okay. I I've been here. I've seen that. I know, I know how this works.
Yeah. I definitely agree with that. It comes to a point when it becomes natural. You don't need to focus very hard on, Oh, okay. So now I have to, to really relax because I'm tense. I'm going to take off. It's going to be very hard race. No. So what was the exercise? This, this, uh, this, uh, um, uh, lady taught me 10 years ago. Ah, I need to breathe, uh, in just really, uh, imagine how is it going to be the thermals on this last, very last turn point. And then, you know, you don't think about it. You, you're, you're so at ease with it that it just becomes natural. It comes out really, it's part of your nature.
You've been at this game a long time or there, what are you excited about these days?
It's a good question. Uh, as I said before, I really love XC. Um, I, and I, I, I fly quite a bit on my area all along the country because, okay, Portugal is not that big country, but we already run out of new routes or almost. So we fly a lot into Spain. And, uh, what excites me these days, it's really study new possibilities, because, um, uh, I mean, I went all directions possible. Um, maybe at a certain point, I had all the records from the main takeoffs in Portugal. I mean the longest flights, but as I said as well, we have a, uh, nice bunch of pilots, really good pilots, uh, motivated with this XC flying.
And we're figuring out where to pull out the next big one. Okay. And the next big one, Okay. I think, uh, 300 K flights in this area, which is, uh, quite something because of the, um, the solar window, it's not so big. So our flights are big flights. You can do it from May to end of August, September, maybe. And, um, on the best days you have like seven and a half to eight hours maximum. Uh, I think I never flown more than seven and a half. And, then, uh, during these seven hours, I want to make the most out of it. So this, what motivates me right at this moment.
It's to go big on my backyard. Hmm.
Last year, uh, after the X-Alps, uh, I was watching Revis, you know, one of my supporters went down and flew, uh, the P W P pre PWC in Spain. I can't remember where that was. Uh, but the week before that there was a Spanish, uh, I think. Uh, I think. I don't think they were towing, but I think they were. I'm pretty sure they were punching out over the flats, but it was like the—it was like an open distance contest. Were you part of that? Because they had insane conditions. It was like a week, and they just kept doing these 200-plus flights. Yeah, yeah.
I, I was not there, but I followed and I know the area more or less. And yeah, 280, I think that was the—the biggest one from Francis, Francis right now. Uh, and uh, yeah, totally. That's the kind of flying we have here. With the Iberian Peninsula, is quite dry and quite hot in summer months.
So, and as I said, we normally have sea breeze coming in, so constant flow from same direction all day for some days in a row. And, uh, when this condition settled, you can expect 3000 plus cloudways with a nice 20-25k tailwind. And, you know, it's, uh, it's very safe to go to go even with stronger wind because, as I said, it's a flatland flying. Um, the dream conditions here is when you have convergence lines, so this, you just go full bar, no need to turn, just flying straight from cloud to cloud.
And, um, yeah, pushing
It, do you have any advice? I know a lot of our listeners, if they ping me all the time with confusion about convergence, and you know that when you're in it, you're just—you feel like a god. When you're not, you're getting slammed. Um, do you have any advice for, especially mountain pilots? I think struggle with this quite a bit because they don't fly like myself. I don't fly the flatlands very much. What you're kind of looking for, what you're feeling, you know how to read the clouds? Do you want to be, you know, the upwind side, the downwind side, that you do? You have any kind of, um, things to pass along about tips for flying conversions, yeah?
Um, some, I... I hope to remember the... the most important, uh, or at least to... to can put it in words. Um, as I said, at a certain point, this becomes almost natural. But, uh, looking, being observant, uh, on everything, mostly not just what happens on... on the clouds ahead. Like, uh, several people refer this, and it's a common statement that you... you have a usable altitude, so you can divide in half. If you're above this half, you look up, you look to the clouds ahead, you look to other pilots, to birds. If you're on the lower half, you should look to the ground.
I would say, even if you're on a higher
part if you really look ahead, really far away, you can—you should still look to the ground, looking for signs. And signs in flatlands can be like smoke from fires from factories, from whichever, whichever other origins. Or like, for instance, windmills. We have a lot of these, uh, farms—no, wind farms—so the windmills really can be really helpful because they show you, um, if like, if in a relatively small area you see windmills pointing different directions, you can just calculate where is it, where it will be, the the the convergence, uh, point, or some term all releasing, um, yeah.
But mainly when I'm going XC, I try to be really observant of this, uh, this, these small things. Where's
your favorite place to fly, that's
a tough one as well, uh, I remember really, I really liked Mexico by the Bravo because Because it's for its strong conditions and, again, convergence lines. And there it works amazingly. It's an amazing place for this kind of race. So it's one of my favorite places, um, although I, although I'm a flat land pilot as I, I mean, originally no, but I really like the mountain. So anytime I flew in the Alps, I fell in love with the, with the area. So I really like, um, uh, this French region close to Ansea.
It's amazing. It's one of my favorite places. I remember one championship in Marzine, a bit further north, was so good. It was so good to fly in these mountains, um, so this is one of my favorite places as well in the Alps, um, I remember Saint Andre on the Southern Alps, it was. But, well, it helps that I was, uh, I also had a successful result there in a European Championship, but it's amazing area for racing paragliders. It's not so high mountains, but it's like a racetrack, I would say. Yeah, everything works like in the books, you know?
It's, it's perfect. So, apart from, from my own, from my area here in Portugal, we have three, four really good places for this kind of flatland flying, I would say. Southern Alps, Saint Andre is up for sure; Mexico, Valle de Bravo, and maybe Macedonia. We, I mean, I've just been there twice, and it's surprisingly consistent, and it's a mix, actually totally flat, but, uh, surrounded with some Well, some bigger than other mountains, but it's a really good place. Yeah, so these are my favorite, Macedonia.
Reminds me a lot of Colombia. You have the—you have the two mountain ranges on each side of the flats, and you can kind of mess around in both. And man, you can get a lot of hours. I've only been once, but I was—I was really impressed with there. It's a fantastic place to hold the comps. We're—we're constantly, you know, we need to hold more comps here, and we're always like, "Yeah, but when and where?" You know, because it's just so hard to get the consistency, yeah.
Well, I've never been there, but I heard in the U.S. Chelan is a really good place. I would love
Chelan is maybe my favorite in the world. I all those places you just mentioned, I absolutely love. I, I, I tried to never miss by a. I love going down there every year for them, at least for the monarca, not more. But the, but Chelan is Chelan's world class, man. And it does, it is consistent. It's, it's one of our few places where you, you know, it if you get getting less than four tasks would be incredibly unusual. In fact, I don't even ever remember getting less than four, but usually, usually you get seven out of seven, and it's just, oh man, it's cool. That's a great place to race. It's a fantastic place to race. It's terrific. I
Would love to go there. I heard from several friends that it's really good and really, really exciting. I would really love to go there. You would love
It because you like strong conditions, obviously, in the places that you fly. And it's, it's strong. Um, the the flatlands there are really wild because they have it has this very, very soft dirt, so you can see all the thermals that you can. They're all dust devils and, uh, and it's so you can see them and it's, it's and it's crazy scenic. And you, you know, you you launch off a mountain, you fly across the Columbia Gorge, it's, you know, massive river. And then you go out in the flat. Sometimes in the last couple years, we've also done tasks that stay in the mountains, which are really neat, you know, because you're kind of on the edge of the Cascades there. So it's just a really cool environment to fly in. And then, of course, on the on big days, you can go a long ways. You know, there's been some the day they they set the distance record and a comp, I think the comp was like 226k, and they had 60 people in goal.
There's a whole bunch of
people in goal, and they had a whole bunch of people in
personal best that day, you know, henzie, henzie tag goal and kept going. He went 300 and something k that day, where
Do I sign up? Yeah, they just come on over. They
Just, uh, it just went live. You can sign up on Air Tribune, and it's, I think, it's July 18th or 19th this year, which is a little bit later than it usually is. That, but it should still be really good.
great yeah
Come on over, I'd love to show you it. It's a... it's a fantastic site. So, so, comp flying is still... you're still doing quite a bit of comp flying as well.
Yeah, I mean, not as much as I would like, because I really like to hang out with this, uh, with this tribe. No, you all belong to, to, uh, flying junkie community. No, junkie in a good sense. I mean, of course, no. I really like to, to, to, to fly among friends, um, and to, to, to race. It's where you really learn. It's in a comp, because you can go 50 times on crossing cross country flying by your own, you'll have 50 chances to, to analyze your, your decisions and decide in the end if they were good or bad, if they were successful or not.
On a comp task, you do this all the time because you're surrounded with so many pilots that you'll see it on live if you're deciding good, if you're taking uh, making a good assessment and and really taking out the most of the day, so I really like this, uh, uh, performance kind of flying. So, yeah, comps keep me motivated for sure, yeah.
And 2011, you did the X-Alps. Tell me about that experience, well...
That was a milestone, uh, not just in the flying, but in my life as well. It was, um, I didn't, I didn't do, uh, particularly good, so I survived one week. It was really tough. The, the conditions on that year, 2011,
was epically bad
Yeah, it was really bad. The first day was okay, but then we had four or five days in a row with a strong wind and rain. So while I was flying the first day, I could really do well. Um, then actually, I got a couple of penalties that got me grounded for a while and I lost a lot of time to my opponents. And I ended up being, yeah, the first day I got, it was just booming on the Salzburg area going in direction to Dachstein. And I inadvertently went into airspace by 20 meters or something. And he got me a penalty.
Yeah, it sucked. But anyway, it was a really great experience, like a big achievement, like I would say self-accomplishment, you know? Like if you, how I see it now, if it's like, if you really focus on something, you set up a goal for yourself. It doesn't matter which kind you really can make it. If you put the right motivation and effort into it. So it was really something special, definitely. When you say... It was very hard, very hard, the preparation and the training for such a short outcome in the end, but definitely amazing experience.
Did you pull out because of injury or you were eliminated?
I was eliminated in the end. Okay. But I was also really having a hard time because I suffered really hard from huge blisters on my feet. So I was in big pain at the time I got eliminated. I wouldn't have gone much further actually. So. And
in the race this year, watching the videos of, uh, oh, it's not Hanjin, uh, the Korean pilot, gosh, I'm drawing a blank right now, but, uh, yeah, sorry. Uh, oh my God, they were so nasty because my, my feet in 2015, when I got to Monaco at the next morning, Bruce literally had to put me on his shoulders to carry me to the bathroom. Yeah. I mean, my feet, it looked like somebody beaten on them with a hammer and they were so nasty. But when I watched Chick Yong's feet, I was like, Ooh, I don't think mine were that bad. And he just kept, he kept pushing. I, oh, it's just so, oh, it's so much pain that hurts so bad.
I remember at a certain point, I was such. Such a big pain that, uh, somehow the mind switched off from the body, you know, you're just floating out there. You, you, you cannot hold it anymore. And the only way to kind of go through it is really switch off your auto mode. Like this was really, uh, something that, um, uh, you know, it was really interesting to, to experience this, this thing is not, uh, um, like I heard some other people saying from different, uh, events in life, like when you have, uh, an accident or a big shock or a big pain and you kind of see yourself floating above your body.
Now, I really experienced this while going on a road after, you know, getting into the Dolomite area in, uh, border with Italy, I was just floating above my body. It's not, it was not me. You know, it's crazy. Crazy.
It's. It's. Nate, my buddy, Nate, who lives down the street from me, he's a real mentor for me and been flying a long time. He did it in 2007 and he always said, you know, there's only, there's only one, one way to get to that place. And in the X-Alps, you will get to that place. It's guaranteed. And, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting because, you know, pain is something our, our brains send us pain to protect us. And it's trying to say, okay, that's enough. You're doing a lot of damage. Stop doing this. You should stop because you don't stop because you don't stop. I think that's when you get that separation because it happens a lot in the race where you're just, it's, it hurts. Like you can't believe, and then it's gone because I think your brain just goes, okay, I, I, you're going to, obviously you're going to keep going.
So I'll let you, I'll let you be calm for a little bit, but yeah, it was, it was one of those things where every morning I'd wake up and it was just vicious. You know what
I mean?
I could only walk it like two and a half K an hour for the first. 10 minutes and then it'd get a little bit better. And then by 40 minutes it was gone. I couldn't, you know, and I, I don't know if it was just numb, you know, just like the numbing took over or if it's just my brain gone. Okay. Well, whatever. And then I'd be normal. I'd be fine all day that, you know, but it's, yeah, that's, that's vicious. Well, um, other hiking flies, have you done like the X-Pyr or anything else, or have there been any other ambitions since the X house?
No, not really. Not really. As I said, it was quite, uh, an experience. I really keep it as a, one of the big milestones in my life for the, for the whole thing. Uh, but I haven't done much more hiking flies. I, I participated a couple of times on the Dolomite and Mando, although it's a different concept, but it's also fun. It's like a team event and it's, um, yeah, it's different. You have a bit of running, but it's just so fast and it's over then. Uh, but no more, I can fly actually Portugal being, uh, kind of very, very cold, uh, country. We are really far away from the ops or from where most of these events happen.
So I haven't done much, just a couple of, on my own, um, hike and fly here on my backyard, going with a mini wing and stuff, but just a regular weekend flying, not, not really participating in more events. Um, X ops was really a milestone and I keep it like that, but it was also really hard, the whole preparation and stuff. So I didn't even consider, um, applying again. Uh, this is more like being there than that. Okay. Maybe if I've at the time could, uh, have managed the kind of biggest support or really good sponsor, I would consider doing it again.
But, uh, this part was really. High time and energy consuming to the preparation thing. So I've never considered, uh, doing it again.
Yeah. It's a, it's a massive undertaking, not just physical, but financially and everything else. It's a, it's a, it's a huge deal.
I never thought I would do more than one. And when I did the first one, it was like, okay, that'll, there's no way I'll ever do this again. But then, you know, you get the, I, that first year I got to Monaco and that was just the worst tease ever. Cause, cause then you think, oh, well I've got this, I can do it, you know, but it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's a massive undertaking. Um, I promised myself that I wasn't going to go, you know, do some shows without talking about, you know, accidents and safety. We've been talking about that a lot lately, but I'm just curious in, you know, 23 years of flight, have you ever been hurt or have you ever had any close.
I've never been hurt. I have a couple of close calls, but, but, uh, not so close. Actually, I've been able to keep it, uh, on the safe side. I once, uh, landed on a tree, got hanged for a while because I was too low to, to throw my rescue, but that was it. The trees were there. So there are best friends you can get when you get in trouble like this, but, um, never had any major problems that I couldn't solve in good timing. So, but unfortunately I've been, I witnessed it. I'm kind of quite a few, uh, really bad and this, yeah, it shakes you for sure.
It makes you think, no, what you're doing and really, uh, yeah, get your head straight and understand why you're doing this. And if you really love what you're doing, then you keep it. Otherwise it's, uh, yeah. Witnessing an accident or seeing a friend get hurt. It's really a eye opener.
Yeah. You know, I'm, I've been working on the. The book, you know, we're doing a, um, with cross country magazine, we're putting together a book of kind of the highlights of the first hundred shows. And it's been really interesting going back and listening to them all and hearing the various different, uh, advice that we get on, on this topic. And the one that keeps popping up over and over again is make sure a, you ask yourself that question, you know, why are, you know, is the risk worth it? And why are you doing this? That's a very good question. To ask and not just once, but repeatedly, you know, all the time to kind of re kind of keep checking in with yourself. But the other one is just to make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. And that's, that's been kind of interesting because it's, it seems like, well, that's just seems automatic.
Why wouldn't we, we doing it for the right reasons, but you know, in a long career such that you've had, and I've been at this now quite a long time too. You do have your lulls and you do have times where you're really on it and you do have times when you're really not. And it's good to check in. And isn't it with, with that? And, you know, where am I today? Where am I right now? And, and like you said, you know, when you have the different factors in your life that are affecting you, as we all have, you know, jobs and relationships and everything else that,
that can,
that can play a major role. So if you're not doing it for fun and enjoyment, then you really should be thinking about not doing it. Because what's the point?
Definitely. Definitely. I, I. Recall three questions that, uh, that, uh, bring you back to this, uh, self assessment, self-awareness, if you're doing it for the right reason or not. And, uh, I can share with you and everyone else, maybe to, to question themselves, like, uh, because these same questions were, were asked me and I, it really makes you think like, uh, the first, why did you start? Yeah. Flying the second is like, why do you keep flying while you're still flying? And the third, which may not even be connected to flying itself, but in life in general is what's your biggest fear.
And if you have these, uh, three answers clear on your mind, maybe you're, you're aware of where you stand. And if you're doing it. And if you're doing it still with the same enthusiasm and still with the, you know, aware of the risks, aware of the passion, if you still have a passion or not, if you don't, maybe it's time to consider something else. Or if the, the answer to your, to the third question is so overwhelming or not, or doesn't put you at ease with, uh, what you're doing, then maybe you should also consider the whole thing. No. Um, yeah, that's. Just, uh, it seems very innocent, but it can be, it can really help you to, to, yeah, self-assessment somehow.
I, when I look back at my own experience, not just with flying, but life, uh, the times I've gotten in real trouble have been when I've forced it and that, and I think that when you force something, you're trying to put yourself, you know, you're square trying to put yourself in a circle. Yeah. Yeah.
If you could rewind the clock to your 50 year, 50 hour self. So back when you were 17, 18 and learning how to fly on the coast of Portugal, is there any advice you wish you would have gotten or something you would have changed in your career of flight?
Um, not changed, but, uh, maybe, uh, be aware of it at the time, like, uh, surrender. And then you also surround... Surround yourself with the more experienced pilots. Then you absorb the small things that you, they share with you after a day flying or just having a beer after landing and really learn from them. Cause if you're a beginner and you're just out of a parallel landing school and you're just by yourself, you... It will take ages to get to a confidence level that allows you to really profit from, you know, to really take your evolving as a pilot successfully and into a good term.
Otherwise, if you're surrounded with more experienced pilots, they always have something that you can learn from that you don't have to experience it yourself because that's how to really make it faster, this progression.
So, that's my advice for a low airtime pilot. Great advice. Stick with the gang, go flying together. Don't stay by yourself, go with friends, share all this thing in the end of the day. I've done this mainly with my brother and we were motivating and helping each other, also sharing a lot of what we were experiencing at the time. But I remember it was really good for both of us at the time that some older guy, very experienced pilot at the time, he would almost take us as, he's a protégé, you know, he's like kind of mentoring us and giving us confidence.
Yeah, I should try this lighter now. You will like it. Go and do this and that and that. You have good, like practice your ground handling and you'll feel at ease in the air. Don't be afraid of this, you know, so just don't be by yourself. Share things.
Get integrated in the. Our local club, whatever, and go flying together. Yeah, this helps a lot.
You know, last question. How has flying changed your life? Is it's, it's defined much of your life. You've been at this over half of it.
Yeah, well, a lot, actually. Most of your free time, you're, you're, you're not thinking in, uh, your next weekend. Um. Or your next holidays as a, you know, as a, as a regular people do, I think you're not thinking, okay, let's go and discover this new country or travel to this other city. You know, you're, you're going to a flying spot, actually, right? You take the paragliding as, as an excuse to fly, not the opposite. Um, so mainly all our, I think I don't speak just for myself. No, all of us that fly for a while. Yeah. You get to this point that everything is around the flying and you, you walk outside, always checking out the birds and, oh, look at this clouds, you know, um,
if we spend a lot of time, spend a lot of time wandering around with our heads up in the air, don't we? My, my, my wife is constantly just like, what are you looking at? What do you mean? What am I looking at? I'm looking at the possibilities. It's up there. It's not down here.
Yeah. Even like, um, it changed. My life in a really, um, uh, permanent way, if I can say so, like I met my wife at the comp, so she is also flying. So we have common goals and this, and sometimes we even laugh of ourselves, like even like, uh, watching a movie and there's a very intense scene going on. And the comment we make is like, Whoa, look at that. Nice sky in the background. I don't give a damn about the speech or about the. You know,
that's great. Okay. Well then I, I lied. That wasn't my last question because that's, I didn't know that it's super interesting to, I'm sure have a partner who flies. Tell me about that.
Yeah, it sure is. Um, we, we, we, it's like you, you make plans together actually, but when we decide what's, what's the plan for the, for the next holidays is where are we going? Going to go flying? No, it's, uh, and, um, to have someone that understands this passion and you don't need to, to put it in into words because she knows, right? Like, how do you explain someone who doesn't fly that you really need to go chase this cloud street that you see at distance? Are you, there's a really good forecast for the weekend, really massive, uh, day coming in.
In. You really need to go flying. How do you explain this to your partner that you're going to miss the family lunch or family gathering? Because there's something really much more important than this though. You don't need to explain because she knows when she's a pilot herself as well. So this is a big advantage. I would say for couples that were both fly. Yeah. It's just the sharing of the same. Uh, uh, common passion somehow. Yeah.
I mean,
actually we've been, actually, we've been, uh, flying quite a lot together in even longer XC. I would say my wife, she became quite a good, uh, XC pilots and she really likes it. She also has some interesting, um, uh, not just accomplishments, but, uh, something in some really interesting events. Uh, even life-changing because she had, uh, once like, uh, cloud suck, she, and this was very, at the same time, disturbing, but on the other hand, very, uh, uh, would say almost enlightening or enriching in her life because she went through some, some very intense moments being cloud sucked to up to 5,000 meters in size.
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, just, uh, just, uh, side story we could, uh, Maybe develop from this for another episode. If you like. Yeah.
That sounds, I want to hear about it right now, but I've gotta run to this appointment, but that sounds crazy. Holy cow. That's that's scary.
Yeah, but she, she, she, um, actually was a really good day. We studied the weather, uh, together. was no risk of over development, just a really perfect cumulus high cloud base and stuff. We went over 200 together, both of us, and now some more, a bunch of other fellow pilots, but there was this one cloud that really had, um, I don't know, maybe a stronger thermal close to base, and this one grew a lot more than the surrounding clouds, and she got disorientated. She got lost in the inside the cloud, and she couldn't figure it out, how to, how to, to, to manage this somehow, and when she finally got spit out of the cloud, she
was really high since 5,400 meters somehow
The ice lay her around all her wing and glider and harness, very cold. And yeah, she mentioned to this as a, she's, she's seen the other side, you know? Yeah, it was, uh, quite intense, probably.
A bit, but she doesn't lose, uh, the the her consciousness. I mean, she was aware of all the time, no?
No permanent, no, no, no, just at the time, this, the moisture just, uh, froze on her and it was quite cold, but she managed to finally come out and, uh, yeah, then she had a long, long, long glide down to earth and to digest all this and to, yeah, but actually it was scary, but as I said, um...
Like, it's, it's the kind of events that make you question again, why are you doing this? And why do you keep doing this? And your biggest fear, what is it? Is to, to get hurt, to, or to stop living your dreams just because you're afraid of something? No, if you can put the things on the right place, if you can find the answers for these big questions, if you can understand why these things happen, in the end, you, you, you're
You're okay with yourself and you or not? Yeah, depends. So you either keep doing it or you just stop. Yeah, if it doesn't make sense, perfect.
place to stop, Nuno. Thank you so much. We're gonna have to get your wife on the show, I think, to hear that complete story. That's it sounds like quite a, quite an intense day and intense aftermath, and I want to hear about, kind of like you said, seeing the other side. I can, I can relate. I've had a few of those, um, you know. Thank you very much. What a pleasure! I really enjoyed this talk, and I can't wait to go flying with you, man. We need to make that happen. Thank
You, Gavin, it was my pleasure. Hope to meet you soon, for sure. Thanks.
bud talk soon
if
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