Is someone listening? Okay.
Let me tell you the story of that guy. First you loved, then you promised.
Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase, ma 'am. I apologize again that we are still running a little bit late. I got kind of behind there in Mexico working on the episode with Jeff Shapiro and Will Gadd. Hope you enjoyed that one. That was one of the more important shows we've put out there. But I just got back from Colombia. Tried to put together a couple of live ones when I was down there. We had a couple of days of pretty bad weather, but that also did not come back together. But just got off the phone with Seb Espina, an old friend of mine who's been crushing. He's from Armenia down in Colombia. Got started when he was 14. He's been crushing it on comps. He won the Open and the British last year. And he was second in both RC. I think he won the Open this year. And then he was just second this last week.
And the British Open is very much the same speed or even faster. I think sometimes certainly was than the Argentina PWC this year. There's a lot of talent to go down to this thing. A lot of big names. And he's been doing really well. But he also does the whole tandem thing and interlocking seasonally. And he's been doing really well. And he's been doing really well. And he's been chasing the big distance flights down in the Sertão and the Brazil. So we had a lot to talk about. We hit on a lot of topics. And I'm here to enjoy it. He's a real bright light in our sport. Always loved Seb. He and I met when he was guiding out for the boys, Mike and Stu Belvis, out in Berbier. Great, great friends of mine who were real instructive. Also for me when I was getting into flying. That's kind of where both Seb and I cut our teeth was there in Berbier. So you're going to enjoy that. Before we get to the show, I also promised.
I promised a few weeks ago that those of you who were aggressive about sharing these shows would be rewarded. And so I've just drawn. I couldn't. I can't reward everybody for this because I don't have enough stuff to give away. But I just drew a bunch of names out of a hat for those of you who have been sharing the last few shows. The Blue Fly Varios. I've got two of those. Thanks, Blue Fly, for sending me those. Almost a time ago. These things are awesome. Great little audio Varios you put on your shoulder and real low maintenance. Great little tool. But those go to my buddy Dave Hanning out in Tennessee and my buddy Stein Volstad from Norway. He's been a fan of the show from the very beginning. He always shares it and just wouldn't be right to not give him one of these various. So thank you, my man.
Here you go. And those for those Patagonia friends and family cars. This is 40 percent off anything the Patagonia sells with some exceptions and during sales and stuff. But like wetsuits aren't in that. But most things are. Those go to I've got a whole bunch of those. So I'm giving a bunch of those away and I'll contact you all. You don't need to. But I just want to put it out there that these people, I really do appreciate it. And I have seen it. And like I said, I couldn't get everybody that shared. But these are going to go to Viv Four Acre, Vivian Gilstrap, Yan Gallen, Bowen Dwell, Ben Netterfield, Andy Reid. And I don't know how to say this name. I'm sorry. But Anze Priestov. I hope I'm saying that close to correctly. But thank you all. We'll do more of these in the future. I'll get some more of these cars. From Patagonia and spread the love a little bit from them.
And but thank you. I really do appreciate it. And it goes a long ways when you spread these shows and just gets more people listening, which I think is a good thing. It's good for our community. So thanks very much. And let's get into it. This is I'm coming off maybe the worst couple of weeks of racing I've ever had. Got a lot going on right now with my boat life, my other life. And I think that stress was certainly playing a role. But who knows? I certainly did not have one down at the Monarca and down at the British. Another thing I just wanted to say about the British Open is this is this is the first comp that I have been involved in. That was they were doing carbon credits to make it carbon neutral, which is amazing. Imagine 130 pilots flying in from all over the world and then taking these gas guzzling buses up to launch every day.
It's always been something that has driven me crazy about paragliding in general and gliding, you name it. But also just flying in general is. You know, our carbon impact as a community on the earth is massive. When we go to these comps and the British have taken it on themselves to make that part of their deal. And I just hope that they that other comp organizers around the world would be really encouraged. Like I was really encouraged to see down at the Monarca in Mexico this year. Miguel Gutierrez, they are not allowing any plastic. They're not doing any water bottles up at the start. You got to bring your own container. They're supplying water. But and that's what they were doing. And at the British down in Columbia as well. So I thought that was really cool to be able to to offset that whole massive carbon load there with that with with these comps.
And it really doesn't end up being a ton of cost. But when they've learned that when they put it on the pilots to do it, it just doesn't happen. So they're just making that part of your fees. A little bit of your fees are going towards offsetting the travel down to go to these comps. So I hope that sinks in. With other comps and with other organizers everywhere. That's a very cool thing that they're doing. But thank you guys for doing that. It was tons of fun. It was awesome to be flying in the sky with lots of colored wings and all of my friends. It was a terrific few weeks and a good trip, even though the scores didn't add up. But they certainly did for Seb. And I tried to ply from him as much as I could how he's doing it. So here you go. Enjoy this talk with Seb Espina.
Seb, I'm really bummed I couldn't do this with you personally, which is just ridiculous. Considering we had a couple of rain days down there. I should have made it happen a couple of days ago when I was still in Columbia. But you're still there. So half of us is right. And I'm back here in my very cold sound room in Sun Valley. But happy to be able to do this anyway. I've been wanting to actually connect with you on a podcast for a long time. You and I share actually quite a bit of background together with the whole Verbiage. connection, which is kind of fun. But dude, congratulations on another excellent showing. Roldo seems to be, well, you're crushing it all over the world. But Roldo seems to be, you've got that place lined up, man.
Hey, Gavin. Thanks a lot for the invitation. And it's an absolute pleasure to be on your show. A total honor. I'm glad we got to make it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This will be a blast. I've wanted. To kind of ask you about you and I had pretty much opposite races this time around. Last year, I went down there coming on off the tails of Menarca and Menarca went OK. And then Roldo went great. I had a really good race down there. You won it, right? You won it last year. You were crushed. Yeah,
I won. I won both the Nationals and then the British, which you were there on the top 10 with me.
Yeah, that was that was fantastic. And you were second. A couple of days ago. Correct. Do I have that right? Yes. I took off before the awards. Dude, that's just I think also, you know, people need to understand that the British Open is very much PWC or even beyond level. I just came back. My last PWC was down in Argentina. And the level of pilots and the speed is is certainly World Cup at the British. There's just a lot of talent there. So congratulations. I want to talk about. I'm kind of how you piece together these these puzzles and we'll talk a little bit about your history. But let's just start with just this race. What what kind of headspace do you try to get in before it starts?
You know, you had the open right before it. Do you even need to think about that? Are you all kind of warmed up or what are you what are you trying to kind of think about the you know, going into the first day?
Well, Gavin, that's a good question, actually. And initially. Yeah. My thought was to completely forget about the events until they happened. So I did some other stuff. I did some coaching on my time. Then I spent time with family. I went to the beach and I went kitesurfing. I just try not to think too much about these two events since maybe there was a little bit of pressure having won both events last year and being the local winner. So I think it's a good question. I don't believe you.
I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. to prove anyone anything.
Yeah, just to try to stay as cool as possible. My wife, she knows that and she tries to help with that kind of headspace. What does she do?
Well, she just moved to Interlaken with me. She's working at a hotel. Before that, she has a master in business administration. She was working at a university here in Colombia. But yeah, now we're making it work in Switzerland.
But what does she do to help you with your headspace? How does she help you kind of prepare?
She knows when, let's say, particularly my ego, you know, like all pilots have big egos and so on. And she knows that. And when she sees me kind of going off track, she tries to remember, to remind me of that. And it kind of works. And we just talk. We just talk about how I'm feeling. And, you know, just discussing that, it creates some sort of, how can I say that, some awareness into what might be happening inside my head. So, yeah, it's pretty good.
One of the things that made me feel a little bit better is, like I said, I had the opposite week. I literally couldn't do anything right this week. It was really bizarre. That was a funky place for me to be. So it was kind of bizarre. What was happening in my head. But it helped me the last day when, you know, like Guy bombed out. And he's pretty, you know, he's very good at being consistent. And, you know, his comment was like, ah, that's just, you know, that's paragliding. That's the game. If you had a comp where you've just blown it. You mean blowing it right at the end? No, just like the comp just didn't go. It just, you know, it is what. It wasn't clicking, wasn't working, wasn't happening.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I probably have several, but then the most recent memory was the World Cup in Portugal last year. Yeah. The first day I was really not flying how I should have been flying. And I started pushing hard from the very beginning of the first task. And, and basically I was all over the place and ended up landing in first place, but. Not where I should be landing, which is gold.
And the second day, yeah, I flew average. So, yeah, it's pretty easy to blow a comp, especially if it's only a two day comp as well. Yeah, sure.
We're getting into this earlier than I planned, but I know you've been working as a lot of other really top pilots are, you know, Patrick Von Kannel and Chrigel and Charles Cazorla. So you've been working with one day coaching with Thomas and I guess his team, right? It's not just him. Yeah, mainly him.
Okay. He has a big team of several coaches and so on. But they also do like corporate, more on the corporate side. And Thomas is the one who pretty much has all the experience with, especially initially with Chrigel. And now with Charles. So Seiko, Yael Marguelis, a bunch of other top athletes from other disciplines such as skiing and sailing and so on. And so he's the one who kind of has all the experience with top athletes. Yeah, it's pretty good. And
is that, is it pretty much 100 % psychology or take me through what you're. Yeah. What are you learning from Thomas and what, you know, how long you've been doing it? What do you, what are you learning? How has it affected your performance?
Well, it's all about, it's not only psychology. He also kind of put things in perspective and lets you see the little things and also the goals that you may have and small changes or even big changes that you can make to get to those goals. So it's not only on what's happening with my mind, but also perhaps other technical things which I can do to improve my results or help me get to my goals. So since he has all the experience in preparation with Chrigel for the X-Alps, I think he can translate that onto, you know, normal competition flying or acro training or whatever.
And also the good thing is that, you know, he, he, he doesn't have a standardized way of working is my impression. He just sees what you more or less need and what your goals are and who you are. And if he has anything to say coming from another athlete's problems or, you know, ways of solving things, he will kind of give you an example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's pretty good. Can you give me
any specifics? I'm just thinking about the folks listening and I'm one of them for sure.
You know, if I could, if I didn't have access to Thomas, what, what, what would be some of the kind of tips and strategies that you've learned from him that we could pass on? You know, is it, are you, are you going to him and go on? Listen, I, you know, I think I'm gliding pretty well, but I could be a better climber or, or is it more? Gosh, I, you know, day three of every comp, I start getting nervous and anxious and I, I need to learn how to relax. You know, what, what kind of stuff do you take to him and what would be his solution?
Hey, perhaps, um, you know, perhaps he would ask you, how ready are you for the next, um, cross country chasing record to trip? And I would say, okay, I'm ready. This, this, and this way. He would say, okay, what percentage? Are you ready? Are you 80 % ready? 90 % ready? I would say, okay, I'm 95 % ready. Okay. What would take you? What do you need to do to, to, to reach that 100 % and then you start thinking and it's like, okay, it's probably, I'm not 95 % ready. I'm probably a bit less, maybe just 80 % ready. And then you realize there is a whole lot of stuff to do that. You still need to prepare.
Um, um, such things and then normally just write it down. Also something that he, he, he is very important. Um, kind of just write it down and feedback, you know, like a, you land, you have to be writing down. What have you done wrong? What went right? Um, why did you do certain decisions? And if, if, if you had like a notebook and you write down all of these things, even if you don't, don't look at it, you're going to be like, okay, I'm going to do this. And if you look at it back, I think he has some effects. Um, um, a little bit of that.
Maxine talks a lot about that in his book. Uh, Maxine Bellman talks about the importance of, of journaling, you know, that just having a, having a little notebook in your flight deck. So when you land, instead of kicking your helmet and getting all pissed off, you just take a few moments and write it all down. And like, like you said, actually, he said the same thing. You don't need to actually go back to it. It's just a matter of kind of cataloging, you know, what you've done, right. What you've done wrong, kind of developing that growth mindset to, to, uh, get better.
Absolutely. I think so. Uh, also another point, you know, I guess you've already talked, uh, perhaps to hear me there about the concept of what the monkeys and how it affects you and how, uh, you know, mindfulness, uh, and all that helps them. Um, you know, Um, Thomas also, uh, likes, uh, to teach you about that concept of mindfulness and, you know, controlling the bloody monkey.
Mm. Is that, are you doing that through meditation or some other way?
I kind of talk to myself a lot. Um, yeah. Yeah. I sometimes get my head space up. I fire it up. Um, and I use it a little bit. But also I just kind of talk to myself a lot and I try just to, to, you know, like if I'm feeling angry, I tell it to myself. Okay. I'm feeling angry. Why is that? And if I'm being, you know, a little bit of a angry driver or something, I try to be aware of that and control it, you know, it's just that. And when I'm flying, I'm very aware when my monkey's out. Sometimes I let it go. I get out to play, but sometimes it needs to, to, to stay in the cage.
What, what general mindset are you looking for going into a comp? You know, I've heard all kinds of things, you know, some, some pilots really like going in kind of hung over and being, you know, kind of tired because they're not so wound up. You know, other, other pilots, you know, the mostly what I hear is, oh man, the best thing. Yeah.
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You don't get tired. You don't get tired. like I could just reach out and crush somebody. And because it was a downhill, I was going to be skiing at 75 miles an hour and taking huge air. And I just needed to be, I needed to be, you know, I don't know, like, like a metal head, just like, ah, that's where I needed to be. But now I, I actually don't know, you know, like a lot of my, my, my bigger flights have always been when I'm really, you know, either tired or really calm. Um, but racing, I haven't really figured out, you know, like I, I can't identify what was different about last year at the Brits and this year, uh, you know, I just, this year didn't work last year did, but I haven't really figured that out.
That's a very interesting question. I think after talking to, to Thomas, one of the things we did, we wrote down in my, in my cup, it's kind of, well, I don't know if you call it my mantra or my priorities, but I'm sorry. In this cockpit, uh, I have, um, what I should be thinking about, let's say, and first of all, is safety, have a safe takeoff and safe landing, a fun, make sure I'm having fun. Um, also ideally be making good decisions, have a clear mind to make the decision. And also very importantly for me, the mindset, in which I want to be is to be sane.
I think of, I don't know, like Yoda or something like, I want to be sane. I want to be cool in the, in, in, in these situations, even for competitions. And when you think about, you know, all the top racers in the world, they're pretty chill. And they, I mean, someone like Russell, he's pretty chill guy and he just crushes it, uh, you know, in the races. Um, uh, I think, uh, I think, uh, I think, uh, I think, uh, I think, uh, I think, I think that's a, as you say, like, uh, it is a pretty long game, you know, it's a two, three hour race. If you're all pumped up, you're probably going to get tired pretty soon. And
I think you're a lot more, you're much better at observation when you're really calm.
Absolutely. I think just to try and have a clear mind and, and yeah, because it's hard, it's hard. I mean, it's easier said than done, but yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't, I'm, I'm not always cool, but that's where, what I aim to do to be.
These mantras, um, that you have on your cockpit. Do you also have stuff that you just kind of generally repeat in your mind? Um, I, you know, Nick Nainan's, I think Adele, quite a few people that have been on the show actually have had, had some really good ones that they use when things are real stressful, but I don't often find comp flying very stressful. I find it more, it's better to just, you know, my mantras are along the lines of just like, you know, just breathe, you know, just look around, just relax, you know, especially if I get dropped, you know, then it's, um, you know, uh, Mitch Riley said, you know, the best thing when you're behind is you, the worst thing you can do is just keep piling on the mistakes.
You know, that's just going to keep putting you on more. Like if you start, if you start trying to fly differently because you've gotten dropped, you're just going to hit the dirt, right? You know, you,
you have
to, you have to, do you have to just like do what you do best?
Yes. Um, I don't have anything in particular that I say to myself in this situation. I just, I just say, I just try to remember to breathe. I think it's pretty easy to, to be out of breath, you know, and, and, you know, the mind needs oxygen, just bring it in and try to breathe. So yeah, I think I always, you know, before takeoff, everyone gets a bit nervous and pumped up and I can see, you know, my heart rate going up and so on. Uh, the one thing I just try to do is to breathe really deeply and to get all the oxygen in and, and to cool myself down. So yeah, I agree.
Let's switch gears a little bit. The, um, when I, when you and I met initially, you were guiding for the boys, Mike and Stu, uh, Belvis and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, uh, you know, I know that I don't even know if you were into comps yet then. I think you were, um, but, uh, what, you know, that was quite a while back now, you've been at this game for a long time now and you're, you're kind of, you're flying year round. You're doing the tandem thing real intensely out in Interlochen. You know, you've been chasing the big distance down in Brazil and the Sertau last few seasons. Um, you're doing comps as much as you can, obviously. What advice would you give to the boys? Would you like to pass on to the pilots just getting into comps, you know, and not stuff like even the British, you know, but you know, the BGD open and the waitlist, the lower level stuff.
Um, what would you like to pass on to them? Some of the things that you learned to help you get to where you are now?
I think one thing is, um, to let's say fly the shit out of the glider, which you have. So if you, if you're flying, B fly the shit out of it until you're making at least a hundred Ks on it, then you move on to the sea and you know, you need to really fly the shit out of your glider before you move on to something else. And maybe for you, for me, we made the mistake of moving up pretty quick. Um, I flew quite a lot. My first glider, which was a B I flew 300 hours on it. So then I moved up into, uh, the straightaway, uh, I did 30 hours on it and then I moved on to a comb glider.
And then my flying went, went back. Like, uh, I don't know, it's, uh, maybe a year or two, uh, while I managed to get the hang of the, of this level of, you know, comp gliders, protos or whatever. So, so yeah, just do your process. Don't, don't rush it. And, and, uh, make, make sure you're at the best in your class before you are actually moving on to something else. Yeah.
Jeff, the last show we just put out with Jeff and Will, he talks, we talked about that quite a bit, you know, that the, I think when people get into comps and, you know, you just see the performance of the, of the CCC gliders, you know, obviously that can be pretty discouraging, but you know, what, what you just said is so true. And it, you know, the glider's not going to make you a better pilot.
It's the hours that are going to make you a better pilot. And, you know, just jumping on that better glider isn't going to, isn't going to bring the results. You still have to get really good. We, we just, you know, the Menarca this year was, uh, it's always so eyeopening to fly with Josh Cohn because last year he flew it on the Omega and got second. And then this year he flew on the Z Alps and got, I think he got second or third. You know, he's just like, you just can't drop the guy. And, and, and he flies so little, you know, he's, he flies that comp, maybe one, another one in a year and doesn't get many hours anymore, but he's been at it so long. And like you said, he, he has flown the shit out of every glider for, for decades.
And, uh, you know, so he can just show up and crush and, and it's, it's very inspiring, but I think it's also, I think it's a great lesson for all the, all the pilots out there. That are like, man, I got to get a better glider. No, you don't. You need to, you need to be rad on the glider you got.
Yeah, absolutely. That's the best lesson. I think. Um, yeah, I mean, uh, when I got my first comp glider, it was, uh, airway FR2 or something like that. Man, I was afraid of pushing bar on that thing. It's like, what's the point? What's the point of flying something I'm scared of? So, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. level are you guiding and uh how do these things work and you know i'm just curious how you and powell take on the the subject of teaching yeah
it was originally a pulse idea you know he moved into columbia he's spending pretty much a half of the year here in columbia um me also i spent some months here so um he had the idea to start bringing our pilots from europe who are you know like looking to improve their cross country skills and but also you know it's we we have to push them we want to push them to make their personal best to it's not only a holiday but you know we we want to make them better and safer pilots so of course pal has a you know so much knowledge safety and cross country that people are happy to come and um yeah we work more or less in average
three three pilots per instructor uh which is a good ratio and normally these people if you already know how to take off and land okay um we will teach you a rest and it's impressive how within two weeks people can improve so much we we had a guy last year who had learned to fly less than a year before and he was already flying 65 k's on a on an a glider with us so that's just so rewarding to see i mean like to see someone who just learned to take off a few months back and already crushing it in in the
it's so cool so we had other people definitely well pretty much everyone they came out a better pilot so we're looking to do that again this year hopefully the weather helps and yeah working with pilots also so interesting because we also learn things from each other when we are giving these talks and we also learn like little tricks that you know we didn't have so that's also quite cool yeah
what glider what glider will you each fly when you're doing that kind of guiding well
um we we try as much as we can to also use the glider and the tandems okay um so you know like a paddle has a swift max and my magnum three and that's good enough to fly cross country here in valladolid caucasian to keep up with them with the clients and it's it's a very good tool gavin to take someone else and so that they can see your your thinking process and also when you are vocalizing that when you're you know pretty much saying what you're thinking about the day and about your decisions it it kind of helps you understand yourself a bit better as well so so so yeah that's pretty good and for when they don't go on the tandem we use a b's and c gliders it's better the least performance the best because we have to come down a lot in on spiral or only or impulse case and doing helis or whatever so
good chance for him to practice some acro coming down from cloud base absolutely yeah that's great um if there's three things that you see over and over again that you know in in this in this kind of group of pilots that you're you're teaching so lower hour pilots you know folks that are pushing for their first 50 and 100k kind of thing what are the what are the three things that you and pal tend to bring up the most in terms of here's what you got to learn
well that's a good question let me let me think about that um you know normally one thing we we see with all newbies when they start to thermal up is that they're a little bit afraid of you know making the turn a little bit tight they turn a bit wide that's kind of one thing that we have to keep repeating on the radio you know crank it up go on go on go on
what else uh pitch control that's also super important uh and and that's something that people can practice you know like on in the ground you know like uh with a little bit of winds and so we we kind of push them a little bit to do a lot of ground handling just simply because that's a way to improve in so many ways to make your takeoffs better to your landings and also your just just to be able to fly efficiently and safer you know so we we we want them to do that a lot actually and um what else would be the third one that we we we try to teach them where we are flying just observation observation is a very important part of you know cross country flying mainly because uh what we have very often is two people in different thermals one is going up higher you know stronger than the other and and the other one is not even noticing that and we we have to keep on telling them please observe look what's going on around you and when that when someone is climbing better than you don't be afraid to go and join them and you know then you fly together
and so to observe like in we have many free flies around you can use them even for competitions to show you the thermals and and yeah i mean that that goes a long way observe for birds and for you know maybe you are close to a terrain and you see the grass is shaking or whatever so so observation is a big part of of this kind of progression but very often the the mind is a little bit clouded with you know keeping the glider open and so on so it's perhaps something that also comes with with ours as well is
there been any like breakthroughs in your when you look back the last 10 years and look at comps was there something you could kind of throw a dart at and go yeah that was the thing that allowed me to consistently break the top 10
yeah that's a very interesting question uh well first of all unfortunately i didn't qualify for Superfinal but
yeah um but one thing that i think um improved my flying a lot and perhaps is the reason why i did well last year and i did well this year it's um it's having spent so much time flying cross country in brazil and last last october you know because it's like a proper let's say i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don't you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you don you you know, it's like a proper training.
Like what the boys do in Organia with the acro, perhaps is what happens in Brazil with the cross country. So if you look into maybe when Michael Siegel, when he won the Superfinal here in Colombia, he had just spent a couple of weeks, two, three weeks in Brazil chasing records. So, you know, when, when, when honor and one here in Columbia, the world championships, he also spent some time in Kishida just before that. So, so perhaps, you know, like I did feel like after that Brazilian season,
way more confidence, you know, like diving in low and, you know, when I was maybe a hundred, 200 meters of the ground, I'm still cool. I'm still saying, because I had to deal with all of it. I've done that in Brazil, not once, not twice, but maybe 50 times. Yeah. You do a lot of low saves there. Jeez. So, so perhaps that just like thermal finding or finding the core you've done it, you know, in a single flight in Brazil, I don't know how many times you have to do it, maybe 50, 50 times or whatever.
Um, so perhaps that, I think one of the breakthrough, yeah, perhaps realizing that all these hours somehow, I'm translating to my competition flag.
Hmm. I'm curious, take any of the days that we had this last week. Um, how does your mind, how does your mental approach change as the day goes on? Yeah. So yeah, let's call it a hundred K task or maybe like the task down to Pita change. Yeah. That was just like 130.
Um, do you, are there, are there different, are there times when you're different? Or are you trying to stay level headed the same all the way through? I mean, including the like final break.
Uh, I wish I had stayed a level head on that task all the way through. Cause initially, uh, Paul had a gain that kind of a gap on us. And at that point I was very clear with me. I tried to stay level then until I mom in until the moment when I caught him up, like after, I don't know, 80 Ks or whatever he was so fast. Uh, and then I overtook him and then I tried to fly as a team with him. But I think our minds went kind of weird. Like Paul was confused somehow by the decisions I was making. And I was, uh, we wanted to fly as a team, but we can't, we couldn't kind of coordinate. And that was a bit of a distraction.
I know. So I mean, the, you know, such a top gargoyle chasing us, uh, put on a some pressure on us. So at that point we, we, we, our decisions were clouded and, uh, yeah, we, we, we lost a little bit on the, on the final.
Uh, but normally I wish I could stay level headed all the time. Uh, just to use the logic mind as much as I can. How do you use it on that day? Maybe. Well, and I would have. I've won the day or something.
Yeah. Cause I, I often, what gets me a lot is often the first day and then late on, in a race where I'm doing well and I get too excited for both of those. The first day I get too excited. I'm just so excited. I'm in the air and I'm doing well and it's fun. And I'm like, oh man, I'm with legal. This is great. This is great. It's great. And I just start pushing too hard. And then the other one I do, and I've done it a lot. So. Yeah. And I've journaled about it a lot. So. I just can't make it that much of a day. But yeah. And then the other one is like, you know, as the, as the day is closing and it's like, okay, 20 K 18 K 16 K. And I just get so excited. You know, I just, the level headed goes right out the door, you know?
And, uh, so yeah, maybe, maybe the question should be not, not really that day because the, a lot of the listeners weren't down there in Columbia. I have no idea what we're talking about, but just, do you have a, do you kind of have a recipe for sticking with a, you know, here's my, here's my, do you have it? Do you, I mean, like when you take off as I, okay, this is my game plan.
Yeah. I mean, on an ideal day, Gavin, I want to make very few decisions. And the few decisions I make is because I know I'm going for sure. So in Columbia, like flying down the reach, I know it pretty well. So I know when to die, when to push, when to slow down. Right. But ideally in an unknown place, I want to use not so much my knowledge, but just kind of other people's knowledge until maybe 20 Ks out. And that's when I have to get creative somehow. But, but, uh, it's, it's hard because every, everyone else needs to get creative. Right. Um, but you know, for instance, on the last stars of the bridge, everyone has to be creative.
I don't believe you.
I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. mentally I want to stay cool the whole time. Even because in the past I've had many moments when I thought I had never won a task, you know, like, I don't know, like five years ago. And whenever I came close to winning a task, I would get so excited. I would, my heart would start pumping and I'd be like, yes, I'm going to nail this. One time I was about a glide, a six to one glide to go to win a Superfinal task.
And I didn't get there. So I had all these crushing moments that made me realize, okay, I have to cool it down on finals and just, yeah, maybe if, if maybe I will win a task, time will tell. But, um, but I want to stay cool when I'm on final, even if everything is looking for sure. So if I'm on final, and I'm first and I have a glide to go to four to one, okay. I, I still, I'm still not celebrating early or getting excited. I'm just looking at my glider and my leading edge. I'm making sure it doesn't close. Um, yeah, it's mainly that I tried to, and then I, I saved the celebration for the end.
So after I make it,
your main job of the year, and I imagine this is, is what provides the most of your funding. Yeah. You're doing the tandem thing and interlocking, which is no joke. That's a, you know, I know you guys are doing a ton of those every day and, you know, it's very hard work, but before we started recording, I asked that and you were like, oh man, I love it. It's great. Do you think it's, it's, I've heard a lot of people say that they don't think flying tandems is good for their own personal flying. How do you feel about that?
Yeah, I think that's, um, that comes to each individual. I, in my mind, I kind of separate what tandem flying is from flying my Enzo three, you know? Uh, so, you know, I do, you know, like every job, it can become a little bit dull after doing it several times. Uh, but I'm still craving flying my Enzo for a cross country flight. After that, I do get, I do have, uh, maybe some colleagues, uh, that, you know, I don't want to see a paraglider after the season. So that's totally respectable. I don't know how that would feel, but perhaps he's trying not to overdo it. I mean, the tandem thing is very attractive when you have a, you know, a lot of customers coming through and you want to save up a lot of money for your holidays in winter and so on.
But also perhaps if you're overdoing it, it's also not so healthy. So for instance, uh, my tandem season, nearly, it's, it's much more, I have a week off to, to, to do competitions or something, you know, and on my first time in season, I remember I was getting pretty fed up, but that was simply because I was working. I wanted to work only work and I didn't even do many calls that year. But at the end, um, the motivation went down quite badly. So, so, so I realized that I have to slow down a little bit. I started with a excessive work and also take some time to enjoy the beauty of normal flight, solo flying or flying with my wife or, you know, something that doesn't involve money for sure.
Yeah. But then for me, I stay passionate, um, with or without tandems.
So you're, you're down in Armenia now, which is about an hour from, uh, from world to NEO. Uh, rewind the clock way back. How did you get into all this? What was the catalyst? How'd you start flying? Did you start flying there? And then how did, how have you gone from there to be in, you know, chasing records around the world and comps and doing the tandem thing in Switzerland?
Yeah, it's, um, I started to fly, um, when I was 14. And, uh, at the time I didn't have any other hobbies. I was not a sporty boy. Uh, I didn't have anything I really, really liked. Um, so my mother kind of saw that. And when she saw that I sort of like paragliding, she went all in and she let me do it, which is kind of scary for a mother to see their 14 year old child going into it. But it was a good thing. And, and, uh, yeah, I started to fly right here with a very old glider, with that airway drive, which was from the year 92. Oh man.
You were flying.
You were flying a
parachute. Yeah.
Yeah. That was interesting. Uh, but I, I got to handle the shit out of that glider. And my instructor really made a lot of emphasis on that, on that, and that I should be on handle a lot. And I came to really like it. So whenever I could, I would even in, you know, in, in the football pitch where I live. Um, so yeah, um, I flew that year, not so much in the following year, every weekend I will be flying. I will be saving up my, my lunch money to go flying. And then on the third year I started competing. I did all the local lakes. I had a massive glider. I had a knock on later on, which was 29 square meters.
And I used to weigh 65 kilograms back then. So it was a huge, uh,
uh, I was lucky that that year was really weak in all the competitions. And I would manage to be in the top 10 in the overalls in all the competitions, just simply because I will be like in a balloon.
So that was, that was a funny one fly with boomerang fours around me. And I was on my little balloon on my huge balloon. I'll climb in there. Um,
so, so yeah, that was, uh, then I had to move on to, uh, to the UK to study English and do my university and so on. And then that was a bit tough because I didn't get to fly much. Uh, spend nine months without flying, which I think it was because of that. And some other things, uh, it was the darkest nine months of my life. Is your dad British? My stepdad, he's Colombian and British. Okay. So thanks to him, I, I get to, to fly in. I flew to Switzerland and all that. Okay. Yeah. So, so yeah, then I, I met Mark Watts down in the UK and he really encouraged me to go fly and kind of mentor me out there.
What a great mentor he is. And, you know, I used to fly also without burial, even in competitions. And I was really, really kind of against it. And it was Mark who basically handed me a very, and he told me, no, you're giving, you're giving. you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving
you're giving you're giving you're
giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're giving you're maybe three and four hundred hours. That was cool.
Yeah, and it's a beautiful place and it's kind of protected. I think we both kind of cut our teeth there.
Absolutely, yeah. I would say so. I learned so much over there.
Cool. And then I remember like the last, I think it was the 2015 X-Alps, which brought me right through Verbier. So after the race, I came through and I might have the year off by a year or so here, but I remember one of the times I saw you, you were really excited because you'd just gotten the Swiss sign off with the tandems and you were going out to Interlochen.
Yes, I was, you know, that's kind of a process. It took me a full summer to do the license and the idea originally was to work with boys, but then I got offered the gift and Interlochen by a friend and I couldn't say no, you know how it is. A
lot more tandems.
It's Interlochen, yes. So also the opportunity to be around so many really good pilots who live there, you know, it's like a hub of champions, you know. So I wanted to be there. I wanted to learn from them. I'm still learning from them. So yeah, that's so good.
Yeah, that is good. Are you able, when you, take these week breaks in the summer when you're doing the, when you're in the full-on tandem season, do you often, you know, jump in the car and go, you know, just go wrap out some big XC flight somewhere in the Alps or is that just downtime? You just go kite surfing, do something else?
It comes down to the weather. Like, I mean, the comps are the comps. I go there no matter what. If I see a good day coming up, I go in XC and I can manage to get the day off. But would, last year I only managed to get in the season apart from comps, two good XC days. One was when we landed the Mont Blanc and then we took off again and flew to the Matterhorn. And the other one, yeah. And then the other one was 260K triangle, which we did, yeah, I needed it for the, the XC contest. But apart from that, I didn't really manage to get the days to go for more XC like that.
Not so much. Mainly, yeah, when the weather would be allowing, I would go kite surfing as well, yeah.
Will you keep doing the Sertal thing? Is that kind of yearly? Because I think you've been down there the last three years, haven't you?
I skipped, I did 2016, I skipped 2017 and then 18 and 19, I did it again. I will try, I will try, I will do my best to do it this year. Perhaps I'll try a different place. I want to mix it up.
Yeah, I will try this year, but perhaps the following year, I will, I will chill because it's, you know, it's kind of exhausting and expensive to go there as well.
It is exhausting. I did the whole Tessima thing on my own. Before those guys. Oh man, it was brutal. And, and Tessimas, you know, they did it, you know, they got the record there this year, but they towed there. And back then when we were there, you know, we weren't towing. And so it's, you know, it's barely light when you launch. And most of the time you can't even launch, you know, it's raining or it's just too windy. And it's pretty dicey. And the launch is not, I mean, it makes Keisha to look like a block in the park. And then, and then you have to ridge soar for quite a long time. You know, it's not on yet at all. And then you get enough height to bench back to this, you know, 3K ridge behind it. And that's a little bit, higher. And then you bench there for a little bit. And then you got to clear like a 40K plateau and it's just ripping.
And there's lots of power lines and the cloud base, you know, and you're right on the ocean there. So your cloud base is like right off the dirt. So you got to clear this like 40K gap before it, and then it drops away and then you can start getting established. But man, I mean, most of the time you're back at the hotel before eight and you know, there's no wifi, there's no food in this little town. It's man, it is bleak. It's not the experience that I think a lot of people are having in like ASU and certainly not like he should have. And it was work. It was like, man, I'm obviously here to do a job. It was, it was tough going.
Yes. I have lots of respect for the record Brazilian guys. Oh man. Those guys were, because they did it from there. Yeah. They had to endure all of that.
Yeah. When, when I was there, those guys were there, Rafael and Marcelo, and Samuel. And you know, the year before was when they got the five 64, when they got the record and it was 39 days and they flew three. Can you imagine? I mean, they like, so when they showed up that time, when I was there, they were there for three days, Samuel kind of had a hard landing and hurt his shoulder and a bunch of wind. And, and they were just like, ah, you know what? Fuck it. We can't do it this year. We just don't have the mental aptitude to deal with it. And they took off. And I was like, Oh, man, I need you guys. I don't know. Wait a minute. But, uh, 39 days, they got three. Uh, I mean, it's bad. It's, it's tough work.
The way that's proper resilience. Oh man. That's why, that's why they're the record guys. Yeah. Totally. They fight for it. They fight.
They fight hard. Were you guys doing ASU or Keiko? Uh, this year, uh, last year, you mean, uh, um, were you, you were doing this year? Yeah.
Again. Uh, this year, um, I, I think as soon as I might not do it, it's a really good place for doing 400 plus, but I feel that it's a bit difficult to do the 500 because when you get a little bit of Southern influence on the wind, uh, basically you have to overcome to our space, uh, to our spaces. So we have a muscle on them for Thales. And so when the wind is pushing you towards airspace, it's not efficient. So I might try somewhere up in more South or maybe even Keiko. I have to discuss that with, uh, with, um, with them with maybe fly with Andy or whoever is operating there.
But then, yeah, maybe Keiko, maybe we try and find our own place. Who knows where?
Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that, that's a very interesting game. So for, for listeners that haven't been down there, what would you say? Or kind of, um, you know, what, what would you want to tell new people that are thinking about going to the flight flight is the Sir towel, uh, to be kind of ready for, I think the sounds like towing is a much safer way to get in the sky. Then, you know, then the typical launches there, whether that be Patu or Keisha or to seem or whatever. But, um, it's also pretty for real. I was, I was amazed like the, uh, you know, the terrain is not, you know, it's not Australia where it's just nothing. Um, it's, you know, it's not like flying Denali Quinn, which I did for a few weeks back in, uh, I think that was 2014. But, um, you know, there it's more like the lack of roads.
And if you land out somewhere, you really literally could die from the heat. Where's, where's the Sir towel. It's like cactus, man. There's some really serious stuff that you would not want to land in.
Yeah. The sir towel has some really unlandable areas. Um, I would say in the case of a zoo, a, we, we are kind of, okay. I would, uh, yeah, I mean with the towing is certainly much safer than going to Kishida and getting thrown about in the compression. The toy just takes away the pressure of takeoff and the pressure of gaining height so that you can leave. Um, so you can already feel it in your heart. You know, like you are not so scared. You are not so anxious. You're just ready to go. Um,
the, the landing options are generally quite fine from a zoo. Um, also the cool thing, as you probably already know, Gavin is the local people. You land and they will take care of you so well. So, so that, that kind of helps when, when you're landing out, people will come and help you as a recommendation. As usual, treat it. You know, you have to treat this kind of long flights. So, so how would you, would you treat, uh, any endurance or do you know, like when you go biking for six hours or when you're going to a marathon or something, you have to stay hydrated to, to, to be, to stay, you know, nourished and to eat well and,
uh, to, to stay healthy, to stay fit. Uh, yeah. Uh, don't, don't treat it like a normal flight where you maybe have a sandwich in the morning and then go and fly for five hours. This is a bit more serious and you can get easily very dehydrated over there. And then, yeah, you need to be prepared, carry less water and, and have a plan for yourself to eat and, um, and be prepared for emergencies. We, we all have to carry an emergency kit. As you already know, it's very important to carry a alarm or a spot. And that's, um, you know, an essential piece of kit over there. And, uh, for sure to have a good team, a good ground team chasing you.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. For sure.
We, we, we were really blessed with the team we had this year from, from flight track expeditions. They had this massive, massive four by four chasing us around the South town. And they had this system where it's a bit like, uh, the, it doesn't go through the internet. You have like satellite, I don't know, sort of positioning, uh, that allows the truck to see where you are without needing, um, wow. Yeah. That's, uh, it was developed by Martin Foreman. I don't know how, but it was pretty, pretty good. So that the trucks, they don't need internet connection to find your spot. Um, it just, it's just on the go wherever you are. And that allows for some pretty cool rescues, pretty sparse rescues.
And, and also you, you feel a bit safer, don't you? That's great.
That's super nice to have that. What a, what a cool development.
Yeah. Yeah. You should talk to Martin. That's pretty interesting.
I don't know
if, if, um, where, where else they could have it, but that was amazing.
What have you learned? Um, what have you learned about flying the flats? Oh, that's different than flying in the Alps.
Yeah. Flying in the flats, you know, it's, it's a bit more of a gamble, right? You see a cloud, maybe the cycle is on, maybe it's dying already. So you need to observe a lot what's going on with the clouds. And the more you fly, the more you learn how to read when a cloud is dying or growing. For me also, a new cloud is actually better than a big cloud. And you know, like a big cloud might be already dying and you don't know. A new cloud is always like a more sure bet. And, and also, you know, perhaps I don't know if it works with all gliders, but perhaps, but I know with my end zone, when I'm flying low, I just let it guide me to the thermal and it works pretty well.
I just let the thermal pull my glider into it. And then obviously find an area where it's, where you know there could be some thermal activity. And, and when you're kind of searching and you're getting little bubbles and so on, I let my glider do the work, which I don't know if it works in the mountains so much. In the mountains, it feels like you go more for a short thing and you can plan out your, your, your route more precisely because you know exactly where the thermals are coming. But in the flats, you know, it's all cycles and you need to, to, to learn to read them. Yeah.
One of the things I learned from Jeff Shapiro down when I was down in Keisha a few years back is about sink in the flats to, that, you know, often when I'm in the mountains, you know, if I, if I enter, you know, really pretty strong sink, I won't necessarily be nearly as aggressive about getting out of it as I am in the flats because I know it's going to change pretty quick. Whereas in the flats, because you've got all that wind, especially in the Sertau, that, you know, you're beyond the ground if you stay in it. Like the, you have to be radically aggressive about getting out of the, the sink, you know? So like, you know, cause we're always kind of taught when we first learn, you know, you know, turn 30, 45 degrees and hit more speed bar.
And, and Jeff was like, yeah, that's not enough in the flats in the Sertau, it's 90 degrees and, and hammer speed bar, you know, like be really aggressive about it. And, you know, it's, it's hard to visualize, but he seemed to be onto something with that.
Yeah. I mean, certainly you have to get out of there. So, I often, I don't know, in my case, I feel kind of encouraged when, when, when I feel that I'm sinking out a lot, I'm like, I get this feeling that, okay, something good is coming. Something good is about to happen. Yeah. So I tried to push through that a little bit, but it's, it's mentally a little bit challenging because you're also thinking a lot that you don't know when is it coming on the ground is coming closer and closer very fast. And, and sometimes it kind of works. Sometimes you just bump and, but, uh, normally we think I just try to push really hard through it and get out of it.
Yeah. I learned something. Uh, it was just, I hadn't heard it phrased this way, but we did this bonus episode recently. It was, I was down at this red rocks fly in, in, uh, in Southern Utah this fall. And there's a guide legend instructor here. Ken who didn't Jorgensen, I never say his last name, right. But been around a long time. In fact, he told a story at this thing about how he was, he's pretty sure he invented the reverse launch, at least in North America. You know, so that was, I'm sure it was probably happening in Switzerland and France about the same time. But, um, he was certainly the first one that did the first one here, which is pretty cool. But anyway, he's been around a long time, fantastic instructor. And he was talking about,
you know, when you're on glide, if you feel something, go towards it. It doesn't matter if it's sink or if it's a thermal, you go, you know, let your, let your wing go toward like our wings. I think the really higher aspect two liners kind of do like, I often do that. I'll often, especially if I'm kind of struggling, I'll just close my eyes and let the wing do the work and just let it go. And especially in the X outs, you're kind of tired, taking a little cat nap, you know, but just let the wing go to the lift. But, you know, because around most lift is, is sink. And so if you, if you just, if you feel, if you're feeling something, it's probably good. It might not initially be good. It might be sink, but then it'll be a thermal. So yeah, I was not that this week was representative because I was flying so, so poorly at the, at the British, but I was, I was trying that a lot and it almost always worked.
Just, I feel something. I'm going to go to that. And, and, you know,
you don't get what you don't get. You don't get what you don't get. You don't get what you don't get. You don't get what you don't get.
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don't get what you don't get. You don't get what you don't get. You don't get what you don't get. You don't get what you don't get. You don't get what you don't get. You don't get what you don't get.
You don't get what you don't get. race, finding it before you hit the deck. I think the gliders help. I don't know if all gliders do it, but I know mine likes to help with the thermal. And I remember two years ago, like, my glider was a bit crooked, I think with the lines or whatever. So I would approach where I would think the thermal is, I would approach it on the right, and I would let my glider kind of, with the turn that it had to the left, kind of guide me to the core. And it was actually quite funny, but it worked. That's great. Several times, so yeah.
So,
Seb, you gave us that great history of coming out of Columbia and learning there, and then coming over to the UK. You've been chasing it pretty hard now for a bunch of years. You're doing the tandem thing and interlocking, which is definitely a very real job, and that's a lot of flying. You're doing the Sertau thing, you're doing a bunch of comps. I'm experiencing something for the first time in my flying career, which is kind of a I don't know if I'd call it a lull, but there isn't that spice that I've always really enjoyed with flying. And there's a lot of personal questioning, especially if this happens more when you don't do very well at a comp, so I'm coming off of that bad week.
But, you know, a bit of a just kind of like, hmm, what's this all about? What does this all mean? Why is it important? This is new. I haven't experienced this before in flying. I'm just wondering if you've ever been through a lull in this, you know, in your, because you always seem pretty psyched about flying and pretty enthusiastic, and I don't know if I've ever seen you without a smile. But I'm just wondering if there's, you know, if there have been lulls that you've had to push through?
Yes, I mean, there was, I mean, my first lull was when I moved on to the UK, but I had to stop flying, not because I wanted, but because I couldn't. But I remember later on once I was in university, and it was right about the time when they stopped allowing competition gliders, well, sorry, I don't know, uncertified gliders into the comps. Well, I had one, and that was the only glider I had. So I ended up myself not being able to compete. So I remember doing a pre-workup in South Africa with a borrowed Air Design Pure and doing kind of badly there.
And then going to the Brits, British Open, also with an Air Design Pure when everybody else was flying on ENSOs and Ice Peaks and boomers. And I was just doing really badly at the time. I thought that, I'm just such a crap pilot. Obviously, also the gear didn't help. But also, kind of financially, I didn't see a way of being able to keep doing comps. You know, it's kind of an expensive sport. I couldn't afford to buy a brand new ENSO 2, ENSO 1, or whatever. And my results were not showing. So I was definitely thinking about giving up at least competitions and just keeping paragliding as a hobby.
And I remember my sister had a wedding here in Colombia. It was in December and I thought, okay, maybe I can go and squish in to the Colombian Open. And I had a talk with Mark Watts and he told me, well, basically, you can take my ENSO. I'll lend it to you. He was going to Colombia anyways for the Super Finals so I could give it to him after. And he gave me kind of a pep talk about how to fly with a group and how to control a little bit. And then I went off and went to my sister's wedding. Then with Mark's board, ENSO 1, I won the Colombian Open, which was pretty high level that year.
I finally felt what it was to fly with a proper glider and not to have any disadvantage.
And kind of the spark came back a little bit after that. I was certainly motivated to keep doing it and cross country approached me and they said, is there any way we can help you? And so on. They kind of helped me pay the registration fee for that year for the World Cups. Yeah, but that was certainly before that, there was a law and I was about to give up competitions and focus on my career. Yeah. But thankfully that didn't happen.
Well, Seb, I'm glad we got you back, man. It's good to have you in the game. And again, huge congratulations for another epic week and actually two epic weeks with the Open on that too. So can't wait to fly with you again, man. It's always just such a pleasure and it's been fun being wingtip to wingtip with you a few times as the years go by. And thanks, man. I appreciate it. It's good to have a chat with you.
Hey, Gavin, thanks a lot for the invite. I hope maybe I see you in Europe this year. And the wingtip to wingtip, yeah, that's a very interesting one. I remember doing a pretty full-on
synchro spiral with you in the pre-walls in Colombia a few years back. That's right. I
forgot about that. That was cool, man. That was cool. Yeah.
Yeah, bro.
Cool, man. Well, yeah, we'll talk soon. Thanks a lot and I appreciate it. Thanks, man.
Cheers, Gavin. See you next time and thanks so much.
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