Hi there, everybody. Welcome to the Cloudbase Mayhem, coming to you from Mexico. I want to first off apologize that I'm a little bit late with this one. We put up a bonus episode last week with Ken Jorgensen out in Utah that was terrific. I encourage you all to grab that. Remember that you do not need to be a subscriber to get that content. And there's also an RSS feed, so you don't have to just listen to it from the website. You can get it on your phones through whatever platform you listen to podcasts on, you know, iTunes, Stitcher, whatever. whatever, that RSS feed is on the website, and I'll be sending that out in a newsletter here very quickly. But this episode, a pretty serious subject, but we took an approach that I think you're going to enjoy. But there's been a lot of carnage, certainly in North America, and some of you may have seen my article about maintaining a margin in a recent cross country publication, application, but it's not, you know, the, the carnage is something that's just ubiquitous in this sport.
And so we don't really take on the subject of, you know, trying to eliminate human error, you know, like not clipping in, you know, we're human, humans make dumb mistakes. This is more about, you know, just trying to be smarter about how you fly to, uh, reduce the carnage. This was instigated certainly by the accident that Cody Tuttle had this summer in the Sierras. And then more recently by the accident that Casey Bedell had to good friends. And but, you know, these accidents just keep happening. And they're, of course, frustrating and they will keep happening. But the attempt here was to reach out to two guys who I think speak about as articulately as possible about this subject. Jeff Shapiro and Will Gadd.
These guys are both, you know, top level athletes in a lot of different disciplines. You know, with Will, ice climbing, kayaking, certainly flying a paraglider with Jeff. He's been flying hang gliders for over 25 years, more recently got into paragliding. But, you know, wingsuiter, also really super skilled climber, falconer. These guys certainly have lived a lot of their lives participating and pursuing dangerous activities. But they have a very good understanding of those, of the realities and the consequences. and I just thought it'd be good for us to hear from them and kind of have a back to the beginning kind of fireside chat with these guys. I don't really interview them in this one. We just talk about risk and what we can do collectively as a community to fly safer and make better decisions and understand how a little bit how our brains work and understand, you know, things like the five hazardous attitudes of aviation.
That's what we kicked it off with. Jeff has recently gotten into flying small airplanes, and there's a lot of things in commercial aviation that don't seem to cross over, uh, very well into our sport of aviation, and they should. So, you're gonna love this, and I encourage you to share it and to, I hope that instructors who listen to this will share it with their students. It is very hard; we draw a lot of analogies to things like backcountry skiing and climbing stuff, but it's really hard to learn without making mistakes, unfortunately. In our sport, you know, if you push it, then the mistake is always hitting the ground. And the ground is hard, and the ground is very unforgiving, and so you know, unlike a lot of other sports where you can push it and just take a whipper, like in climbing, and get away with it, uh, you're not going to do so well.
You hit the ground, so this, these are the things we talk about. We talk about, you know, being inconvenienced, and we talk about complacency, and we talk about mental attitude. We'll talk about a lot of things that hopefully will have an impact, and and reduce the carnage. That's what this one's all about, so enjoy this. I apologize, the connection was pretty rough. Miles will do his typical magic. and make it sound as good as he can. And of course, I'm sitting here in Mexico, you can hear the crickets in the background, but we did this, we recorded this in a laundry room for myself and on my end and, uh, didn't have a great connection, and of course, it's just Mexico. There's lots of noises down here in Valladolid, bravo. But, uh, important subject, you'll enjoy it.
And again, please share it. Cheers, guys.
I really appreciate this. I know this is hard to connect the dots. Thoughts, Willie Cannell and I are sitting here in a laundry room in Mexico, and Will, I know you're in Canmore at home, and Jeff, you're at home. And, uh, I want to jump right into this because I know we've got some time constraints, but thanks as always for contributing and coming on the mayhem. And this is a pretty serious subject, but I'm really excited to talk about it. We're going to talk about risk and how we can possibly reduce the carnage in our various, uh, passions, and especially, especially, obviously, pre-flight, but I wanted specifically to talk to you guys. Cause I know it's been a really hard year as well in climbing. And I thought it'd be really interesting to talk about the similarities and some of the non-similarities and what you're both seeing.
And, uh, yeah, just see if we can reduce the carnage. Uh, well, the other night we weren't able to connect with you, but Jeff and I had a good chat and Jeff, I thought a really good place to maybe start would be, you know, you're, you're just getting into flying super cubs and small airplanes. And you came across some stuff in your recent tests, getting all licensed up there called the five hazardous attitudes of aviation. And, you know, we've all been in aviation a long time and this was new to you and totally new to me. I thought that'd be a great place to start. And then let's just have a fireside chat about risk.
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I, I recently was going going through the process of getting my pilot's license. And, um, I had actually come across this, these terms or, you know, the, the five hazardous attitudes in a, in a previous, uh, aviation book. I think it was a sailplane book, but what I was surprised to see in, in every textbook that I've, that I studied from airman knowledge, um, and, uh, the, you know, aircraft training handbook and all these things referenced, uh, what they sort of refer to as the five hazardous attitudes in aviation. And, and I, what surprised me most was that I had never seen it in a hang gliding or paragliding text. Um, but it was, it, it made me laugh when I read it because, um, you know, certainly I recognized it in my own behavior in past years.
And it is something that I see on a regular basis and in patterns after, you know, participating in sports that involve risk management for a lot of years. And, um, and, and I think it's something that, that each one of us should sort of, um, self-reflect and ask ourselves. Certainly, I try and do this, um, relative to the decisions that I make when I'm flying any type of aircraft. But those, those five hazardous attitudes, it's really funny. Uh, the first one is anti-authority, right? Uh, don't tell me what to do. Um, the second is macho, uh, you know, I got this. Uh, the third one is invulnerability. Um, you, you know, it's not going to happen to me. Uh, the fourth is impulsivity. I'm going for it. And the, and the fifth is resignation.
You know, there's nothing I can do about it now. And, um, you know, how often do we hear that? Or how often do we say that when we're flying paragliders, you know, like, um, you're on launch and, and someone, uh, says something about weather or about conditions or whatever, you know, and, and, um, you know, my first reaction is to, to sort of believe in myself. Right. And, and I think that that's a good thing. Um, especially when, you know, you're getting advice that, that might, um, give you information and be helpful, but contradicts what you think is right for you. But I think it's important to, to sort of figure out the difference between, um, you know, advice and, and whether or not you're, you're sort of pushing back against someone, someone else's advice, you know, like, don't tell me what to do.
I, I got it. There's the first two right there, you know? And then, um, you know, the other one I see a lot is, uh, in almost every sport, is this, "Man, that... that's a bummer that that happened to so-and-so." And there's a reason why it happened, so there's some justification for the accident, and that justification seems to somehow rule out that it's ever going to happen to me because I know what happened and I'm never going to do that, right? But, but it can, it can happen to all of us. And, and, um, and it is always a different thing, right? Um, and then the impulsivity, you know, I'm going for it sometimes, even our logical brains before we fly or after a flight or whatever, you know, you learn a pretty valuable lesson. It might, might be pretty heavy, you know, you say, "Man, I'm going to be more conservative," but in the heat of the moment when you're emotional and you're flying, uh, you know, we're all sort of guilty of saying, "Ah, I'm going for it" anyways, you know?
And, um, and that, that can, can obviously, uh, create a pretty hazardous situation at times. And, and then, um, you know, the fifth, the resignation, I had to think about this one, but, but it's true, you know, uh, when you are in the air, you're totally committed, right? You, you launch, you're trying to squeeze one in, uh, before the storm hits, or, you know, you, you're trying to fly a little closer to the storm cell for that, just a few more caves or whatever. Um, you know, By the time you've made a decision, and that decision has, uh, you know, proven to be kind of a poor one relative to risk, um, you know, the idea that there's nothing I can do about it, I'm, I'm just gonna go with it, you know, that can be, that can happen, you know, based on necessity. But, but the mistake's been made already, you know, the mistake was made, uh, five moves ago.
So, yeah, I just thought that those, those hazardous attitudes are, are pretty interesting and, um, after reading it and sort of studying it for this, this pilot's license thing, I, I definitely try and check in with myself now about each of those things. And relative to risk, you know, I've always said, it's important to try and make decisions for myself based on logic and, and not emotion. I try and I try and think about all five of those terms and, you know, discover whether or not, you know, my decisions are being influenced by by any one of the five, you know?
Yeah, and we were we were talking about you will Will, I wanted to, you know, we touched on this in the first podcast with you a couple of years ago, and I wanted to just reflect back on that and talk about it more, maybe dig into it more. But you have this great saying, you talk about it in your talks all the time, the positive power of negative thinking. And we, Jeff and I talked about that the other night and said, you know, that's the thing. It's so positive. There's nothing negative about the positive power of negative thinking. So can you talk about that? Because I know, I mean, this is such a timely thing. You know, you're dealing with, uh, an avalanche death that happened today. I understand, and there's so many parallels to me with backcountry skiing is like when you go into avalanche terrain, you know, you could make a bad decision and get back to the car and have no idea you've made a bad decision, and you go, "Man, I killed it today, I crushed it," and the next guy that skis that exact same line gets buried, yeah.
I mean, it's—I mean, the positive power of negative thinking idea works. It works really well, especially for dealing with like the biggest hazard in aviation, which of any kind or any kind of high risk activity. And it's the same stuff as Jeff's five hazardous activities. It's how well do you understand your own head? Like all the knowledge and all the technical skill and the best equipment and all that stuff is certainly good. Good, but if you want to survive, you kind of have to understand your own head and expect error, and then you can use all those tools. Like, if you're coming into a ridge, you can either, you know, push it and come in right on the boundary layer where that, where the rotor starts, or you can give it an extra 100, you know, meters, 300 feet, and give yourself margin, because you know what?
You get, get it wrong sometimes. And if you give yourself an extra 300 feet, you can fold it up and walk away. And if you're like, "I'm going to come in right on the boundary layer with the rotor and I'm going to, you know, just skate it in perfectly," um, then inevitably that's not going to work out. And you know, speaking from personal experience, I think a lot of times I have played that line. I'm like, "I'm going to take it right in the layer, I'm going to go into that ridge as low as I can," and then I got the shit kicked out of me dozens of times. And I was like, well, let's give it an extra, you know, 150, 300 feet, and I'll live longer. And that's where that, both expectation of your own error and that you're gonna get it wrong, and if you built enough, um, margin, then you might live through it.
And then also you're going, "Wow, what could happen here?" And that's the positive power of negative thinking. Like, you know, I could fold it up, and then do I have enough time to toss? You know, that 300 feet becomes really critical when, when things get really western, and you're like, "Wow, I'm so stoked that I have enough time to make like one good effort," and then, and then get the laundry out. So I think as I've gotten older in all these sports, that the thing I've seen over and over again, it's like the people who do think about the consequences of what they're doing in the moment and then also try to add margin, um, tend to live longer. And, and again, we're all walking the line, you know? It's, it's like I've had some really good luck when I needed it a couple times, and I'm very appreciative of that. And nobody sets out and be like, today is a great day to have an accident.
So, you know, nobody starts the day like that. But being aware of those ideas, you know, how well do I understand my own mind? What do I actually want to do today? You know, do I want to live or do I want to like go as hard as I can and kick ass? And both of those, in my view, are actually pretty valid viewpoints. But you have to understand where you're operating from, how much margin you have, and then decide where you want that kind of slider to be. So a bunch of things in there, but that hazardous attitudes means you've got to understand your own mind and then the positive power of negative thinking, what could go wrong, and then going, right, how much margin do I need here to do this for a long time? How
do we instill that kind of knowledge before you have it? Again, back to the backcountry analogy, you never want to get in an avalanche, but until you get in an avalanche, it's kind of hard to really understand the true risks. It's really hard to understand how it could go and, and to have this attitude of I'm going to be fine and not properly scared. So I'm thinking about the, you know, the pilot that hasn't pushed it and made those mistakes as we all have. It seems like that's a necessary education. Can we, can you skip that? You
know what's funny about this? And I'm really anxious to hear what Will has to say about it. But I think, you know, when you talk about a place, some people say, oh, you know, that place is beautiful because they've seen photos. But unless you have a visceral connection with that place, you know, unless you've been there and had your fingers in the dirt or, you know, that you've spent time there and you have memories and you know the smells and you know those memories relate, you don't have that visceral connection. And it's not as important as it is for someone who's just seen it in photos. And I think that when it comes to experience, it's similar. You know, when we go and we climb a route, uh, the, the experience of that climb or that route or that pitch or that move or whatever is over the second it happens, you know, by the time I'm walking down the trail back to the car and I'm thinking about the story, I'm going to tell my wife, it's already different than what actually happened, you know?
And what, what's interesting about that is, is, you know, when we have close calls or we have, and I'm, I'm sure Will and I both have had, um, fistfuls of them, uh, over the the years, but those mean something to us. And although I would love to be able to give that to somebody, it's very, very, very difficult to explain it in a way that has the same level of impact that it did for me. And so what's really interesting is, um, that I've noticed at least is when, uh, when, when I'm on launch and I'm talking to a newer pilot and, you know, they have questions, I can try and explain something, but there is this, this certain level of experience That has to happen for that lesson to be learned. And, um, and I also think that, um, certain people, I think, uh, there's a trend on launch sometimes where people will get advice and it's really difficult to tell who are the sort of, you know, like you've mentioned, like the term ground suck crew, the difference between someone who's being negative and someone who's giving good advice.
So I think a lot of newer pilots will misinterpret advice sometimes as fear as opposed to experience. And I found that communicating that in a really particular way is super important to be able to, like you said, give that to somebody in a way that might have an impact, a positive impact on their day. I don't know. What do you think, Will? No,
I think that's a really good point. How you communicate risk and talk to people. You know, I wasn't very good at that in my 20s. And, you know, somebody would be doing something and I'd be like, don't be a fucking idiot. The communication wouldn't work. And now I'm like, well, hey, you know, this might not work out so hot. And I've kind of been there. And, you know, maybe this is something that you might want to think about because I'm thinking about it. And then we get to a common point. So that communication of risk and knowledge is, yeah, that's really, really important. It is hard to get that into people's heads. And there's so many layers to this. I've been dealing with it a lot in different industries as well. So I look at how guys who work on high tension lines, really high power, high tension lines, how they deal with their high risk environment.
And again and again, it does come down more and more to human factors, how people look at it. You can call them hazardous attitudes or human factors, but it is how people approach it. And you go through different careers, you know, or different stages in your career as a pilot or any in any risk activity. And I think until you really get it into your head that every time you launch, you're you're going to die unless you do certain things right. Right, it does. You've got that into your head, it... it doesn't really, um, sink in. And if you fly with that knowledge, or climb with that knowledge, and... and that knowledge is, if you get it wrong, you die. Then you tend to start making better decisions and try to build systems so you can make little errors and still live.
But I do think in all these sports that I see, it's like, yeah, you can do this safely, bro. You know, you're more likely to die driving your car. This is bullshit, like, all these sports are high-consequence, complex environments, and you can't approach them like that. It's just not reasonable. But if you do approach them with an understanding of the very real hazards, and then you're like, today is an excellent day to live, and I'm gonna, you know, watch myself for these five hazardous attitudes. And I know I get really competitive with other pilots, so maybe I'm not gonna, you know, fly in environments where I do that, or I'm gonna recognize that desire in my own brain and... and slow it down. But it, yeah, I think the starting point is we are operating every time we step off the ground in any sport or whatever in a really dangerous environment.
And then, if we do enough things right, we can deal with our errors and... and end the day, you know, back on the dirt with a... with a beer and a smile, which is kind of the real goal, isn't it? You know,
You know what's really funny too is, um, when we talk about other sports and I'm sure that it's been like this for you guys as well, I, I've always learned best by pushing pretty hard. You know, I, I look at, uh, people that I think are better than me, I try and learn from them. I push out of my, uh, comfort zone and try and make, you know, pretty big gains in both understanding and skill set, and and sometimes those gains come at a price of making mistakes almost always, right? But in aviation, what's unique to aviation relative to most other activities like, say, skiing or climbing or whatever, I mean, the point of climbing is falling off, right? The point is trying shit that's harder than you can do. And when it comes to aviation, the things that are always constant are, you know, gravity and speed.
And the ground is fucking hard. And so what's what's interesting is, is that when we're 100 feet off the ground, what do we say as pilots? Well, God, we're fucking low. You know, we are low. Well, 100 feet, try and jump off 100 foot building. What's going to happen? You're going to die. You know, so that the thing is, is when you're when you're not very high off the ground, say 50 or 60 feet, if you fall, which happens when you know, we take a big collapse and you hit the ground, it's going to hurt you probably forever. So what's really interesting is in my normal mantra of pushing hard and maybe climbing like the climber that I want to be, when it comes to flying, I think one of the mantras that I've been sort of trying to pass on, or at least utilize or apply to my own flying-related life lately, has been to make decisions and to fly like the pilot I am, and not like the pilot I want to be.
And what's important about that is that I know that the more I fly, it's inevitable that I'm going to gain experience, and with that experience, I'm going to gain skill. There's no way I can fly every day and not get better and not gain the experience, but I can only be me. I can only be Jeff. I can't be Will. I can't be Gavin. So comparing myself to somebody else or flying like a different pilot than I am with the intention of getting better, it might even work pretty well a couple of flights. But eventually that is going to bite me. That's going to get me eventually when I make a decision because I'm, you know, wanting to be something that I'm not that that is going to catch up to me. And that's been a pretty interesting sort of, you know, discipline to have or to try and have, because, you know, once again, without the discipline, I'm being emotional and risk and emotion just doesn't work out generally, at least not 100 percent of the time.
And, and you know, I'd like to come home 100 of the time if I can from flying, yeah.
That's a really good goal, I think. Keeping that goal topmost in your body is, is pretty critical at any sport. It's like, what? And we tend to get sidetracked, right? We're out on a big flight, we're like, "Oh yeah, I could just, if I can just pull this off, I'm going to that ridge low, but if I can pull it off, it's going to be epic." And then, if you do have that goal in your mind, it's like, "Wait a minute, my goal today day is to like land and go back home and, and you know, pull this off safely." Then the question is, is it really worth that risk at that moment? And, you know, if you're at like, if you're at like one kilometer from your personal best and you're like, "It means everything to you," then, then maybe that risk is totally worth it. And that's awesome, if so. But if it's like just another shitty day at the hill and you're trying to scratch your way over the highway, maybe not.
And you're going against that big goal in your head, which is to end it safely at the end of the day. So when you lose sight of that big goal, you know, and, and, and I do all the time, and then I have to reel my brain back in and be like, "Nope, we're not doing that. What the goal is here is to have a really good flight and make it home in time for dinner." And then I'm like, "All right, I don't need to make this like very high risk, high consequence decision right now. Maybe I will in the future, but right here, here right now," I don't need to do that. And then I can make a safer decision. And oddly, often enough, the safer decision works out fine anyhow.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and the other thing too, is, is, you know, we'd all be lying if we, if we didn't have like the best memories of our lives as, as were these moments where you pushed hard and, and, you know, you, you either did it well or you got away with it or whatever, but you, you know, you got the, you got the carrot it at the end of the stick, you know, and, um, and that's, that's awesome. I mean, you know, to, to do what you're, you know, what, what you didn't think that you could do, there's, there's hardly a better feeling, but, um, I would also say, uh, from experience that the times where I risked and it didn't work out, uh, I never said it was worth it, you know? And so, so it's, it's always kind of one of those things. It's like, Is an extra K, or flying further than your buddies, or when in the day is it worth, you know?
And at some level, you know, it's a very personal decision that is made by each of us every single day and every single flight. Like, and you know, the other interesting part of that is, is I try and when I'm, when I am saying, you know, like, whatever I'm going for it because, um, it is worth it to me today, that today it is worth it. And, and I do feel like I'm going to be successful. I try and want, you know, sort of ask myself whether or not I'm, I'm, I'm forcing my will on the day, you know, um, Gavin and I were talking about this the other night, you know, this, this term that, um, Nick brings up in, in his podcast about, um, you know, flying your desire as opposed to the day, or, you know, always fly the day and not your desire. Um, I think it's interesting that, uh, you know, occasionally I'll find myself doing it, but I'm certainly seeing it as a factor in some accidents where people are trying to, or, you know, sometimes I'll try to, um, force my will on the day.
So in other words, and this can happen with, with a choice of gear, it can happen with, uh, uh, trying to accomplish a particular flight using, using the high terrain to get high, as opposed to getting high and being allowed into the high terrain or, um, you know, using a two liner to become, uh, to get more more performance as opposed to being, uh, you know, outflying the glider that you're on so that it's appropriate to move up and, and you might have the, the skillset to be able to fly that glider. I see that as being contributing factors to some of the accidents that have been happening and, and certainly use it as a mirror to check myself.
Yeah. I wanted, I'm glad you brought that up, Jeff, because I learned a lot from you, William, on the Rockies Traverse with wing choice. Uh, and I, it seems, you know, I might just be getting old, you know, old fuddy But it seems to me like, you know, in when I learned it was like there was a requisite number of hours and time and experience before people would just look at you like you were crazy if you if you moved up in a wing. And now and I don't know, maybe that's because I've been flying more comps lately, but it's just, you know, I see it in people. They're so hungry and they're so stoked, which I love to see because it reminds me of, you know, when I got into the sport and I'm still kind of that way. But you said it the other night, Jeff, that people are using the wings to improve and they're not getting better.
The wing is not going to make you a better pilot. And so we've got people that are, in my opinion, maybe moving awfully fast up because they want that. You know, you see it. You go on glide with, uh, you know, big, uh, you know, open glass wing or CCC like comp wings, and you know that can be a bit, a bit discouraging. But, you know, at the same time, you see a guy like Josh cone down here last year on the Omega, and then this year on the Z Alps, just crushing everybody. I mean, he doesn't have any trouble keeping up with good gliders that are way better than him. I mean, obviously, he is totally outflying that wing. Well, I want to be Josh, gosh.
Yeah, it's a... that's there's a lot in what you both said. Um, the the wing choice thing is interesting, and I've gone back and forth in that so much. And so, yeah, I've got the two-liner for some days, and then I've got my like light wing that I fly a lot, and I often choose to fly the light wing, you know, because it's... it's just a lot of fun, and I can do just about anything I can hen on the on the two-liner as I can on my light wig. And and uh, I just have to remember that, and maybe I need to set the glides up a bit better or whatever. But again, it boils down to, I think, what what Jeff had to say. It's a Buddhist concept about seeing things as they are, you know? The day is what it is, not what you want it to be, and conditions and and so on are what they are, and you can't change that.
So you have to be super open and flexible to the day into whatever the conditions are, and then and then adapt to it, and then, you know, and and make good choices out of that and try to do your best. I one other thing, I think it's... I've I've realized recently, that's probably not gonna be super popular, but um, I I do believe it when when you know there's this temptation to... it's like it's like a... it's like combat veterans, you know? The first stage of a combat veteran is to say, well, not that not that many accidents happen, and it won't happen to me. And that's like your novice pilot or your basic intermediate pilot stuff doesn't happen very often. They haven't like done CPR on somebody on the side of the hillside, that shit's not that real. And then you see that a bit, and the combat veteran is like, right, things go sideways out there, and if I train really hard and I'm really dialed and things are super tight and I'm locked down and I have high knowledge and high understanding, and everything, that won't happen to me.
I'm going to learn from everybody else's errors, and I will get through this just fine. And in the third stage of combat veterans, and I think it very much applies to extreme sports, is you know what? You go out the door, you can get killed. And it's not resignation. You're going to do everything you can to keep that from happening that day. You're going to do all the work and do everything you can. But if you approach flying with that stage three mentality of, you know what? Really smart people who didn't make any stupid errors are dead. Then you can approach it maybe, and build the best margin, and and use that concept of maybe this wing isn't the best choice for me. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stay on a wing that's reasonable, and I'm gonna adapt fast to conditions, and maybe I'll land 30 minutes before I really needed to for that storm.
But um, I'm on the dirt, it's a good thing, so I don't know if that's a depressing thought or not, but for me, it's liberating. It's like, you know what, these sports are really dangerous. Smart people die doing them who aren't pushing hard. Let's try to get through the day as best we can and, and use all those skills to have the best day. But you got to start with that understanding or to quote fight club. You're useless. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
you know, you know, what's, what's funny about that too, is, is that goes back to the, you know, how do you pass this on? How do you give that advice? And what's, what's harsh about it is, is when you, you know when you've gone through those stages, when you're like, Oh, you know, that should happen sometimes. And then you're like, wow, it really happens Because, you know, you've had blood on your hands and then you get to that third stage. How do you communicate that to a newer pilot without it being all doom and gloom and negative Nancy? Because let's face it, we're all out there just to have fun. You know, we want to go up on the hill. We want to go flying. We want to go flying because it's fun and we want to have fun while we're flying, you know, and hearing about accidents and hearing about the doom and gloom of what could happen and all these things. I think that the knowledge is important and relative to making good decisions.
But, you know, we want to be in a good headspace when we're flying. We want to have our, you know, our minds in the right place and we want to enjoy what we're doing. But what I think is interesting is when you got two sort of opinions, right? You have somebody who's been flying a while and, you know, they might say, I'll use this example. So they've flown through the rain three or four times, and they're like, I don't know what everybody's quivering about. It's no big deal flying through the rain. I've flown through the rain 10 times. Nothing's ever happened to me. And then you have a pilot who's flown through the rain, whatever, 100 times. And 10 of those times, it increased the stall speed, and they came out of the sky like a stone and ended up having to dump it somewhere or had a near miss because of it.
And so, you know, is it negative to give that advice of maybe it's not so smart to fly through the rain? Because one pilot's giving advice based on what hasn't happened to them, and the other pilot is giving advice on what has happened. And I think that that's really important to remember when you're getting advice or when you're giving advice, that it should be from a place of experience, you know, what you have experienced. and if it's not, then you know you should think about the conservative side of the line and back to what we were talking about before relative to: is it really worth it? What are my goals today? What's the mission? You know, if the mission is to win the day, if the mission is to go huge, and it is important to you and you are feeling it, and you're, you know, you're at one with your wing, you're feeling current and, and you know, uh, the time to dive into that ridge feels right, then you know, whatever, that's that's up to you as a pilot.
Um, it's very personal, like I said, but... But, but if my mission today is to have a good time and to do my very best to learn a lot and to come home, then my wing choice, my line, how hard I push and and, you know, the priority of landing safely and and figuring out how to how to hitch my way back to dinner with my family, if that's the mission, then, you know, then that's what I'm going to try and do the best that I can at. And I think all of those experiences build into this personal set of limits. And, you know, all of a sudden now getting advice becomes just another piece of information, no different than the way the trees are moving in the wind or the birds, you know, turning in front of launch.
It's just another piece of information for each pilot to use to make their own decisions. And, you know, I just think it's really important to remember that that information is coming from somewhere and to analyze where that information is coming from and then to utilize it appropriately. appropriately.
I'd be curious to know that. That's great, Jeff. I'd be curious to know, you know, I know both of you guys, uh, are fully willing to back down and come back down, whether climbing, flying, uh, you know, well, you and I talked about it a lot and something that you talk about freely about how open you are to doing that, whether you're guiding or whether you're by yourself. How much of that is what you see versus what you feel?
Well, it's both. If I don't feel good about a situation, then usually there's a reason for that. I might not have intellectually figured it out yet, but if something feels off to me, it's an excellent time to stop and have lunch in the mountains. The trick is that in paragliding, it gets a little trickier to stop and have lunch. It's like you can't just like hang on the bolt, or put in a piece of gear, or walk over to that, that ridge, and get out of the gully and figure out what's going on. You know, aviation is a lot like, more intense kayaking, where you, you're in the drop from the moment you step off till the moment you, you get to the bottom. But I think listening to that again and understanding your, your own head and being, if something feels wrong, um, then, then you know, back it down, do something different, choose a more conservative line.
Is that, is the equivalent in paragliding? You know, when I first started learning to kayak, I would like puke in the eddies, the top of big class five drops, and that was just not the right mindset. I thought that's how I had to approach the sport to get good at it, and in retrospect, that was not the way forward. You don't learn as much when you're in a state of terror; you don't perform as well. And as I got better at kayaking, I decided I wasn't going to paddle in that state anymore. And the same with flying, um, I, I don't like operating if I'm really afraid in the air. It's like, that is not the right state to be in the air. And, and, and I will often go and just land. I'm over it. It's like, if I'm not feeling good and solid and competent, then I know myself well enough to go, right? I'm out. This is not cool. And maybe I haven't noticed something, you know?
Maybe there's more going on out there. Maybe my wing is sluggish for some reason, and you know, I haven't figured out why. Or just listening to that little voice that says, something's not, not right here. And, and, uh, being willing, being willing to make changes. And, and, you know, maybe you get lower and you're like, oh, you know what? I was really high, and I was a bit hypoxic. I haven't eaten anything, and that's why I'm like, feeling uptight and scared in the air. But operating in that place of fear is, is really not good. You also, you have to have honesty about what the consequences are, and then be operating in that place of competency, where you're like, yeah, I got this. It's solid. I'm making good decisions. And I'm not operating like, I'm going to overcome my fear and fly close to that big black cloud because I saw guys do that once. You know, that's, then you turn into Ava, and you get like sucked up to 10 000 meters, and I asked her, why?
And she was like, I was gonna win the day, don't do that, you know, um...
Jeff, you, you've had in the last, you know, well, you talked about it a bit on the first show, of course, with the king and everything, but you've had a couple pretty recent, um, super close calls. Uh, I guess one of the one in the close calls, a hit, uh, with wingsuiting. I'm curious, were you able to process and look back where those were both of those times was the voice screaming and you ignored it or something else?
No, I mean, what, what Will said and what Belcourt said, I think is super true. And it's kind of where the magic is in paragliding. Like you can't, I mean, you can't make it safe. It's not safe, you know, but it, that's awesome. You know, it's, it's nice to be able to, If you're competent and you're current, you can navigate that environment in a way that's, um, that that is incredibly fulfilling. You know, it's just amazing thing to get to do, and to pretend like you can operate a paraglider on a cross country flight in the mountains safely is just, I mean, it's just not accurate, you know? Um, but but like, will, I don't think I've ever, uh, been sorry about backing off something when that little voice was in my head, you know? And the the line between fear and doubt and and real danger gets pretty blurry, um, and it takes some experience to sort of know the difference.
But I mean, you know, I've certainly had experiences where I, you know, like, was way up on some ice climb and just the the last pitch just didn't feel like it was, it just didn't feel right. It was just a little too gnarly for me that day, and so we, you know, we wrapped out. It was no big big deal. We backed off. And then, you know, I kick myself afterwards and say, God, man, I, I, I should have just sent that thing. You know, I was there, I worked really hard. It was the last pitch, you know, it would have been good to get it done. And the fact that I can sit back and say that is sort of a proof positive that it was a good decision because if it would have gone the other way, uh, then I, you know, I would have been wherever, you know, hospital or, or dead thinking, God, that wasn't worth it. It was just one pitch. Right. So, you know, I think, um, Whenever I feel that and I'm not sure where it's coming from, I try real hard to listen to it.
When it comes to flying, you know, as soon as you make the decision, you know, the first decision in this link, this this chain of events where, you know, like like we were talking about before the podcast, most aviation accidents end up being this this chain of events. Right. And if you were to remove any link in the chain, then the accident wouldn't occur or at least it might not be catastrophic. And so generally that that chain starts with the decision to launch. Right. And so if you've if you've made the decision to launch, you know, now you're pretty much committed to the aviation, you know, and you have to stay focused and and be on point until you're back on the ground safely. safely. Um, but you know, if I'm on launch or, or on an exit or at the base of a route or even on a route and I get that feeling, um, then, you know, once again, I asked myself like, what's the mission today?
Am I here to have fun? Is there anything that I need to prove? Am I, am I, you know, whatever. And obviously, um, the answer is yes, I'm here for fun. No, I have zero to prove to anybody, including myself. And, um, you know, the, the mission is to come home because I want to do this again tomorrow. You know, we're out there to have fun. So like, why wouldn't I want to fly tomorrow and the next day? And, and, um, if, you know, if it, if I'm getting that feeling, then, uh, for me, it's just been important to listen to it. And, um, and, you know, I don't have to necessarily verbalize it, um, unless I see a, uh, you know, a very active hazard that It might, it might be beneficial for me to let the people around me know about it. But, but generally, if I have that, that, that feeling, even if it doesn't mean anything to anybody else, I'll, I'll, I'll listen to it.
And I think it's important to do that for, you know, if longevity isn't, it is, is something that, that I want, which it is.
It's a, it's like, like Nate scale says, you gotta be stupid enough to launch and smart enough to get it back to the ground.
Yeah. Nate's good, man.
You know, um, what one other thing that that I use in all my sports, across all my sports, that that is really, I think, been useful to me, and I've only codified it in the last, um, maybe five or ten years of doing these sports, is to is to keep track of the of the like two or three things in any one environment that are actually likely to kill me, and and to always, always have kind of those three things on my mental screen, or that one thing. And that's been really useful to me over and over. And to have some sort of plan in my head to deal with those three things if they start popping up. So, you know, in paragliding, it's like the ground is the obvious thing that's going to kill you. So if you're close to the ground, you're immediately in that danger zone, You start making better decisions and be a lot more switched on mentally and in the the game.
You know, nope, I don't think anybody's ever died at 16,000 feet or something; it's pretty rare, actually. I know one guy who did, but it's pretty rare. It's like the ground is what's going to kill you, so now you're close to the ground. And then, you know, in ice climbing, it's if you if you fall off and you don't have enough gear in, um, if you fall off with enough gear in, you're just probably likely to get maimed, but not die. So get enough gear in that you're not going to die. But knowing those those two or three things and and having them in your head, and where I've gotten into trouble across all my sports is when I stop thinking about those things and I'm like, I'm really low, but I'm going to scratch this out here, and it's windy as hell, but I can still deal with this, and the thermals are ripping and I can deal with this. And then I'm like, you know, I've had a few very close calls where I'm like, I forgot that the ground is the enemy and it was out to kill me, and I needed to, you know, respect that relationship.
So knowing those two or three things, and paragliding, it is only usually the ground that's going to get you in the long run. But it may be, you know, on this day, it's going to overdevelop. Okay, I got to watch that. That's something that can get me. And then, wow, what's going on with that? And checking into it all the time and being very aware of that and respectful of it is helpful across. It's like driving, you know, what's going to get you? Well, you're going to hit something or somebody's going to hit you. So how are you going to deal with that? If somebody locks it up in front of you, where are you going to go? If you see somebody in your rear view mirror coming at you really fast, what are you going to do about it? And, and having that as part of your outlook, I think is pretty, pretty critical. And then having it pre-planned so you can react fast is, is pretty helpful because you're not going to do any better in combat than you did in training, yeah.
You know, you know what else is really interesting, too, is is that we're all, we're all out there, you know, like I said, to have fun, but But, you know, when that affects ego and yet, you know, like we're out there to get to have this emotional response, but yet you have to remove ego to honestly self-reflect. That's a pretty difficult sort of dichotomy, you know, to say, you know, I'm going to put all ego aside and self-reflect honestly and say, okay, am I current? current? Am I prepared to fly this glider today in these conditions? Um, you know, what you want and what you should do, uh, can be, you know, a conflict sometimes. And, um, and that, that's, that's something that has helped.
Um, you know, when I, when I do feel that little, that little voice saying, Hey, you know, you know, step back for a second and take some deep breaths. That's, that's what I try and, uh, immediately do is, is drop all ego and self-reflect in a pretty hard hard way and say, okay, why am I getting this feeling? And, um, you know, is it fear and doubt or, or is it something? And, and sometimes I still decide to back off just for personal reasons or whatever, but, but sometimes, uh, look at it logically. And, um, and I, I self-reflect, honestly, I realized that, that that feeling is actually coming from somewhere. Maybe I'm not so current. Maybe the conditions are, are, you know, whatever, not appropriate for my skillset or level level of experience and then the answer becomes easier to you know to put into action you know
No, I think that's really, that's the, that's very much in line with what, what I think about was talking earlier, and that understanding yourself is the biggest part of staying safe and in any of these sports is to have an honest look at yourself and, and know what your motivations are and where they are. And if your goal that day is to go huge and be dangerous, then hey, that's what, what you, that's the deal you've made, and right on, rock out, go for it. And if your deal that day is, I want to get back for dinner, that, yeah, being able to reflect honestly on that and look at it is a, is a good thing. Um, I mean, one kind of tangent to this that I think is pretty important, and again, it's something I'm working with a lot in other areas of my life, but paragliding is not one thing; it's like there's a huge spectrum to it. You can, and you can choose where you want to be on that spectrum.
And for me, most of it in flying comes down to, once you start removing the direct human factors, it comes down to the complexity of the environment that you're in. And you can choose to fly, and you know, you can fly the, the Point North side in the evening, it's relatively laminar and it's a, it's a relatively, um, straightforward environment, and that's awesome. And some of the best flights of my life have been in that light in the Wasatch, man, those are just seared into my brain, love that stuff. And you can take a risk, you can try and glide over to that next hill, and, and if you don't make it, you land in the sage and pick your glider out, you're like, okay, well, that was still pretty cool. And then you can step it up a bit, and you know, maybe the far end of the spectrum as you're flying distant flights in the Owens in, in July or August, you are in one hell of a complex environment in, in there.
And no matter who you are, you, you can't parse that environment in a way that's going to make it anything but pretty, um, pretty, um, the things are going to combine in unlikely ways and you're going to have outcomes both fantastic. You know, I went to like a very high altitude in the Owens one day, it was awesome, but also I got blown backwards over a cinder cone there. You can't predict that environment as well because it's so complex. So as a pilot, and as people who teach other pilots, because we're like old people now, we need to like set that, explain, explain that there is a, a wide spectrum of abilities and situations and complexity in flying and try to help people find the right level of complexity, um, for them, and understand that paragliding is not just this thing, it's like super, it's a super wide spectrum and you can pick a point that makes sense to you on it, and, and not just go fly because it's paragliding.
It's like, it's, it's really, really huge range, and when you operate in those more complex environments, you inherently are going to have adverse or unforeseen events, let's put it that way, unforeseen events more often, and
That, that sounds to me like, you know, if you're going to operate in more complex environments like the Sierras, or like you and I did in the Rockies, then you have to automatically—doesn't matter how good you are—you have to provide yourself a lot more margin. And so then you need to remove, you know, it's no longer taking the obvious line right on top of the peaks. It's getting out front and giving yourself some margin and giving yourself that 2000 feet if something goes wrong. And piecing together those flights can be more difficult, but it's also, it's a skillset that you can learn. To me, I mean, It's a way for us to fly places like that a lot more safely, rather than like you said, you know, parking yourself over the cinder cone, 30 kilometers an hour wind, and the Sierras is, you know, there's, there's very high potential for a bad outcome there, no matter how good you are, yeah.
It was like 50. It was pretty stupid, but I didn't respect the environment. I just didn't, I didn't, I just did not respect that environment, you know? And I didn't understand how complex and how fast that could be, and on a rocky traverse, I got caught out once or twice there. And you will be, no matter how much respect you give it, you're still going to get caught out, but it's more likely to happen. And even in those simple environments, it's like I remember, you know, maybe 25 years ago flying in Venezuela, and I was chucking these huge wing overs at this nice evening laminar site, and I screwed it up. I was just way, way late or way early, I forget, but I blew that wing up, like, not very high. And I couldn't throw my reserve because I was in the middle of a city. And I was like, you know, I didn't respect that even in that simple environment, the ground is still really hard.
And I can't fold it up low. I kind of forgot that I was like, I'm doing wing overs. This is so rad. I'm in Venezuela, you know, and I just forgot. And, and that sort of thinking where you're like, I don't remember, Even though I'm in a simple environment, the ground's still the same and I can still blow it up here, so I've got to like keep it a little bit inside the box, um, and then have have a bit more margin. Just just a if you have like 20 more more margin than you think you'd really really need, then when you blow it by like 19, you still live. But if you're like right on the edge and you blow it, then you got nothing left. And and yeah, that's that's something I try to operate with in all my sports. It
Is it is hard to to not be um to not let stoke get in the way, you know, when you, you know what what needs to what needs to happen and and it's, you know, this this list of mechanical things, but when you're feeling it, you are, and it's really hard to just like put those emotions aside when you know you're, you're doing huge wing overs in Venezuela, it feels so good. It's like, it's hard to remember what was what would happen if I lost half the wing on this last one, you know know, or whatever. And it kind of goes back to this, you know, like you say, margin, it goes back to this idea that the only thing in this world that I could ever hope to control is my own mind. And in flying a paraglider, you know, in whatever, 28 years of free flying, I've been studying the weather a long time and it very routinely surprises me.
And so, you know, you make these decisions on a cross country flight where you're making that decision now that's going to affect you a couple of hours from now. It's not uncommon, even with a lot of experience to be wrong, you know? And so what's the harm in having a little bit of, of, um, of margin and, uh, and leaving yourself, you know, leaving yourself like when I learned how to fly, my buddy told me, um, always leave yourself a way out. If you forget everything else, I tell you, remember this, always leave yourself a way out, have a plan B and ideally a plan C, D and E as well, you know? And, um, and you know, how often over the years have you discovered the the plan C was actually the best plan to start with anyways, you know? So I think having options and trying to remember where we're at at all times and, you know, by all means, be stoked.
And I try as hard as I can to, you know, look around and smile and, like, remember where I'm at and how ridiculously awesome it is to be at CloudBase with a buddy, you know, flying over the granite teeth that are sticking out in Brazil. I'll, um, but at the same time, remember that I'm flying a paraglider and that I actually, um, can only control my own behavior, so you know, always like, like you say, uh, will have the have the positive power of negative thinking, what, what could go wrong? And, you know, be prepared, be educated, and be ready for it, and, um, and then, you know, relax and enjoy. It's hard to do all those things at the same time, but it's, but it's possible, and it's certainly the recipe for staying safe, yeah.
I like that one. I mean, I got to head out here in a minute, guys, but one—one thing that relates to what you're, you're talking about a little bit is something that we could maybe do a bit better, um, of a job. In in paragliding, now I feel very fortunate that I both I learned in in two places in North America that had a really great community of pilots, and ironically, both of them were named Golden. You know, I learned in Golden, Colorado, and Golden bc pretty different places but in both places there there was a really strong crew of more experienced pilots, and they were not shy about telling me what I was doing wrong. I'll never forget the voice of Mike Reeder, you know, God damn, boy, what are you trying to do? You don't want to die today or tomorrow. You're top of the list.
You're top of the list right now of pilots who are going to die this year. And there was the list, man, and that's how it worked. And I remember being really embarrassed at the time. And but I really think how we create this culture of communication and understanding, you know, that's that is that's probably not the way to do it in some ways. But it was really effective because I heard Mike and I was like, well, you know, he basically just told me that I'm an idiot. And in retrospect, he was right. And I probably am alive today because of those voices from the culture that I learned to fly in, especially in Golden, Colorado. And as people, you know, Jeff and you, Gavin, and me to some extent, it's like, you know, talking to pilots and if the older pilots in the sport make an effort and, you know, hopefully is a little bit better than I or my creator might have used.
this, but we got to do that. Like that is really important. And, you know, maybe we would hurt somebody's feelings, but having seen enough accidents in the mountains now, I'm pretty okay with hurting somebody's feelings. If I think something's actually dangerous or wrong, I'm going to try and do it in a professional and professional and collegial way. But if I can't, you know, it's way better to have that discussion before you scrape somebody up. And we've all got out those pilots on our hill that are making bad decisions, and I—and I think we do have to be, um, sometimes really direct. And then there are other pilots who make bad decisions unconsciously, and we've got to like talk to them and frame it in a different way and try and make it useful for them, um, because you know, it's your community. It's your instructor is super important, your gear is super important, but it's your community and your own understanding, your head, that maybe ultimately are kind of like the finishing school of piloting; not how many wing overs or infinites you could do, but um, how well do you—how well do you represent your community and communicate your values?
And then, how well do you understand your own head? And I think that's pretty critical, yeah.
I think passing on, passing on, um, information and creating a culture, uh, you know, each, each community, uh, around the world has, like, you say, this, this group of pilots and they all lean on each other. And I think the best, um, let's, let's put it this way, the, the, the most, uh, effective ways that I've ever learned have been, um, with good instruction. You know, uh, you know, that's where I make the biggest jumps. And I think this, this idea of accepting mentorship and having those mentors, um, all the mentors that are out there, if, if each of, of those mentors can figure out how to communicate in a, an effective way to each pilot. And I don't mean like baby in it, some people need, sort of, you know, to have you come at them hard, and some people, uh, they need you to be a little more gentle with them about it.
But either way, providing information for the greater goal, which is, um, for everybody to keep having fun and to stay safe and, and to learn and get better together collectively as a group. And, um, this idea of the mentor relationship, whether it be climbing or base jumping or flying paragliders or hang gliders, um, I think that it's super important in a way where the mentors in each community, they, they end up breeding a culture, and that culture is, is something that sort of drives all the pilots that are coming into the sport and the pilots that are growing within the sport. And, um, it kind of goes back to that, that, uh, idea that, you know, we were talking about before where, um, you know, deciphering whether or not, you know, nobody wants to go up on, on the hill and hear somebody talk about every excuse why you shouldn't fly.
But at the same time, if you're up on the hill with a pilot who's known to not be a conservative person, you know, known to be someone who's, who's out there getting after it and flying and flying well and, and, you know, uh, participating on a regular basis and is passionate about the sport, if that person sees a dark cloud off in the distance and shows some concern, you know, maybe you shouldn't throw your wing out and wonder why nobody else is pulling up, you know, and instead go over and ask that person, hey, what are you seeing? You know, what's the harm in asking that? And then, you know, having the wherewithal to say, okay, well, I'm still going to make my own decision, but I'm going to use this as information. And if the information is coming from an experienced pilot
who's, you know, speaking from things that have happened as opposed to things that haven't happened, um, then I'm going to learn something and, and whether it influences me to fly or not is still up to me, but, but it does breed this culture of, of, um, each of us sort of looking out for each other, which I think is, is, you know, I think, I think that's a cool thing. I think that that's helpful.
You guys are, you guys are awesome. I really appreciate it. Well, I know you got to get off to this dinner again. I'm sorry about, uh, the accident today and, uh, Send my love out into your community, but um, thanks you guys for sharing all this, and thanks for your time, and I think this is an important talk and message, and yeah, I appreciate it. Thank
You for doing this, man. It's like you're doing a really good job of spreading different ideas. Maybe something Jeff says resonates, or I say resonates, or Belcourt, but you've done a tremendous amount and totally appreciate that, man. Keep doing it. Thank you. Yeah, thanks.
Thanks a lot, you guys, if
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