Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the CloudBase Mayhem. We are trying to venture out of our kind of typical show with paragliding and XC and a little bit of acro and trying to talk to people who have very different backgrounds and flying different aircrafts. This is certainly no exception. In this talk I speak to Denise Burnham who's an Alaska resident and she works on oil rigs all over the world. Right now she's on a two-week rotation down in Texas working on a gas rig, but she runs the rig. I think she's the only female that is on that rig, which is fascinating, but she's a chemical engineer by education and she flies everything. Helicopters, seaplanes, sailplanes, paramotors, paragliders, hang gliders, so has a real interest obviously in aviation.
And this was just a fascinating talk with a very, very fascinating person. I think you're going to enjoy it. A little bit of housekeeping before we get into the talk. I don't have a ton of time. I don't have a ton of stuff, but remember that we're having a little thing for those who share the show. We'll be put into a pot and I'll do a little grab bag for Patagonia, big Patagonia discounts. And also we've got a couple of blue fly varios left from Alistair who gave me some of these a couple of years back. I've got a couple of those. So please share the show with your friends or put it out on social media or just talk about it on the way to launch. Let me know you've done so. We'll put your name in a... In a sack and we'll draw from that sometime early January.
Happy holidays, everybody. And hope you enjoy the show. Cheers. I just don't go in for sweet young things and superstition. Are you drunk? Denise, welcome to the Cloud Based Mayhem. I've been really excited to talk to you. I was just fascinated to follow you recently on Instagram. A friend of yours reached out and said, you've got to check this girl out and see what she's doing. And I thought an interesting place to start. We just had this kind of long conversation about some of your history and education and work. But if you and I were sitting in a party and we never, you know, we'd never met, we didn't know each other. And I said, hey, what do you do? How do you answer that? Because you've got a fascinating background.
Yeah, thanks. I think I just kind of normally tell people I just work in oil and gas industry. And it's kind of taken me some really... To promote locations. Like I spend years in the Arctic. I've worked in Canada and some other places throughout the U.S. But my background itself is engineering.
And you have quite a unique position on these rates. Right now, you're down in Texas. Is that right? You're drilling for gas?
Yeah, in East Texas.
Okay. And your schedule, you were saying, is two weeks on, two weeks off. And you live in Alaska. So that's a lot of travel.
Yeah, it is a lot of travel. So, yeah, I'm definitely gone more than six and a half months out of the year because the travel days count against me.
And how long have you been doing this?
It's been about 10 years now.
And so, okay, so you, like I said, when we were talking before we started recording, you went to USC and UCSD out in California. And was this kind of on your radar, getting into oil and gas?
No, not at all. I studied chemical engineering at UCSD. And so biotech is huge in San Diego. So that's kind of where I had focused my internships on alternative energy or a little bit of stem cell research.
But it was just one of those opportunities. I got to be interviewed in Bakersfield.
And that's the first time I've ever even seen an oil rig. And they made a job offer to me to go to Brazil. And being from San Diego, I was super excited. And of course, I was like, well, heck yeah, I'm going to sign up for that. And then they sent me to the Arctic.
Crazy. I mean, what was the catalyst for the flying? Did this come from your parents? And to find, I think people are going to be fascinated to learn all the things you do fly. So we'll get into the various aircraft you fly. But when did that all happen?
Both my parents were in the military, but neither one of them was a pilot. I guess I, just from a very young age, I had like a true love of aviation. I would draw like little pictures of helicopters. You know, getting to go to school in San Diego. Of course, there's Torrey Pines right there in La Jolla. And I remember seeing stuff, but of course, you know, you can't really afford it. So you would just kind of watch people do things. But I've always had that desire. I started actually flying at the local Aero Club on base when I was 17. So I got a taste of it and I knew I loved it. But most of the other types of flight, I just got to kind of watch people doing it until I knew I had, could dedicate the time and the resources.
And what was first?
So I got my fixed wing license first. That was about 10 years ago in California. And so that was just a single engine land.
And so this is when you were going to school?
So that was right after school. Okay. And then I kind of like to try a lot of things. And unfortunately, sometimes I try something and then I'll come back years and years later and finish it. But so I kind of dabbled around in a couple of things. Like that's kind of the first time I tried helicopters, but it was, you know, helicopters are quite expensive to fly. And it requires a lot of money. It requires a big time commitment. And when I was working in the Arctic, I didn't actually have a normal rotation. So I would work for sometimes six weeks straight, only get three days off. And obviously, when you're in the Arctic, there's I mean, you're working right. You're on a rig. There's nothing else to do there. So you would kind of talk to other people, maybe hear about something and you just kind of take a little mental note. But kind of the next thing I remember doing is I kind of feel like I tried the accelerated freefall with Skydive.
So I went down that path a little bit and then I actually went and did the hang gliding and look out mountain. And then I kind of I kind of learned that paragliding backwards. I went and I learned how to fly paramotors first. And then and then I did paragliding and then I went and did my seaplane rating and then helicopter license to Alaska.
So a lot of people I know out in the Midwest, there's a lot there we got to unpack. But I can't believe you fly. Wow, that's awesome. And I mean, it's also it's great that you fly all these things without the you know, like you got into flying helicopters on your own. You know, most people have to go through either military training or, you know, it's expensive to learn how to fly a helicopter. But as I understand, you've done all this through your job.
Oh, yeah, for sure. So I did all this kind of self-funded it. I work, you know, that rotating schedule. So in my days off, I would go and say, OK, I'm going to focus on this one area. And so, you know, for instance, for the helicopter, it took me several rotations. Right. So I had to probably do it over the course of six or seven months. Whereas some of the other stuff, right, paramotors, I was able to do it in just one of those days off rotations.
And do you own like do you own your own seaplane or do you how does that how do you get how do you get hours?
So a lot of this stuff, like helicopters, once you get your license through a school, they'll normally let you rent it. Through them. So I've done it that way. So like renting it through the people that I learned from or, you know, there's sometimes like little clubs you can join, like aero clubs or something like that. But I do own my own like paraglider.
Yeah. And that's so I know a lot of people learn paramotoring first. And that's not that unique because they're out in the Midwest and there aren't mountains to hop off. But it's always that's always scared me to death. And the first paramotor I flew was actually up in Alaska. I was in Alaska with my buddy Kenny up there and it just terrified me. I just I felt so out of control and heavy. It was just really it was I've never really gotten into paramotoring. But how do you learn how to paramotor before you paraglide? I've never really understood that.
I mean, first of all, I 100 percent agree with you. Something about the takeoffs itself. Oh, my God.
You're so yeah. There's no way you can make that look good. I mean, even the guys that like to really do it professionally. They don't want to do
it. They're like, Oh, my God, I'm going to take that
great taking off. It's just it's kind of hard. You're taking these weird little steps and.
Well, also, you know, you have so much thrust, right? So it's pushing your hips forward. So in a way, like you said, there's really like no cool way to take off. But it's just really funny to think about. That's what makes me laugh.
So I had a really good instructor. His name is Joe Cruz. He's a he was out of Valley Springs. And like he did it very because he's actually he flies free flight as well as the parents. So he does like the just the paraglider itself. And he's very talented pilot. So he kind of progressively like the one thing he always stressed is like, you got to know how to kite your wing. So kind of like, I guess everybody learns, right? You just got to learn how to kite the paraglider. And then they have like a winch. So they would kind of tow you with just the paraglider because they wanted you to get used to having getting pulled from the waist a little bit. Because remember how when you're getting that motor is on? Exactly. You're getting pushed with your hips forward. And then they kind of let you they would just kind of have you do like dry runs with the paramotor itself.
So of course, you know, this is a lot of ground handling, a lot of training on the ground because the paramotor itself is really heavy. And for me, I actually I found it quite heavy for foot launching and stuff like that. But especially when you're carrying a lot of fuel.
So, yeah, I mean, I remember to the first time you actually take off, you're just like, oh, my gosh, like, there's no way this is going to work. And then like magically you're in the air. But, you know, I've learned some hard lessons to write like I learned when an instructor tells you don't jump. I learned that the hard way. Unfortunately, like one of the times where you kind of feel like, OK, I know I got enough speed. I'm just going to, you know, like do a little hop and know like you come crashing down and it's pretty brutal, right? You have like 70 pounds on your back.
Yeah. With its pressing you into the ground.
Yeah. Yeah. You just kind of lay there just ashamed. Throttle off. Throttle off. Yeah. Yeah.
Have you ever had any accidents flying all these different apparatus?
You know, kind of knock on wood. No, I haven't.
Just, you know, especially with hang gliding and stuff like that. I've had like a little bit of maybe like a little bit of rough landings and stuff like that. But thankfully, most things in the air kind of fly the same way. So it's always the takeoff and landing that makes it really unique. Yeah.
And I think that's something you're doing is very foreign to me that you're flying all these different things. You're also working pretty hard. So you can't leave that much time to really devote to one thing. I mean, I got into paragliding and that was it. My life just became paragliding and I stopped doing a lot of other things. Probably to all those other things detriments for sure. But how do you how do you kind of approach maintaining security and flight? How do you approach – you're probably not getting enough hours to stay super proficient. So how does your approach vary when you jump in a sailplane, jump in a helicopter, you go fly a hang glider? Yeah. How do you approach all that side of things?
So stuff like the helicopter airplanes or seaplanes, those are federal licenses. So they actually have like FAA sets currency requirements. But because you're renting it through a school, they have their own currency requirements, right? So something like that, you know, helicopter to me was the most expensive. And I kind of feel like consequence-wise, like I think it's quite easy to get killed doing it if you're not careful. Because you literally cannot let go of the controls on that. So I feel like if I take a little bit of too much time off, I'm always like, there's no ego in this aviation, right? Go get an instructor, get checked out again, make sure you're comfortable, practice auto rotations.
Just, you know, use common sense, right? Like I never just say – I don't take a month or two off of something and say, okay, I'm just going to go wing it. Like that's crazy. I always say like, for instance, when I took my gear – because I got my gear in Santa Barbara for the paragliding. So when I took my gear up to Alaska, I went and found like a local pilot. And I got a site orientation and I just don't care to pay somebody to kind of, hey, you know, do you mind just walking me through? It's been a little while or just get a refresher that way. And then I kind of go off and do my own thing. But always, always I make sure that I'm comfortable first because you can pay with your life for sure.
That's – I like how you think of it in terms of currency. Will any of these endeavors – do you ever see any of them becoming commercial? Or these will just – Are they purely recreational activities?
I mean in terms of like my hours, I definitely have enough hours between helicopters and the fixed wing. I could pursue the commercial license. But – and, you know, I could be wrong about this. This is kind of how I feel. Like I never wanted to taint my love because it was just like for me, like it's a hobby. I enjoy it so much. And I kind of feel like if somebody was paying you to do it, well, now it becomes – and you'd have to kind of see how I fly, right? Because I kind of dress up in characters or I tell a story. And that's not going to fly if somebody is paying you money, right? Like I'm going to be like, what are you doing? So I kind of like keeping it separate. I kind of like getting to express myself through flying that I kind of feel like it would be affected if I was paid to do it.
Where are you based?
So I'm actually an Alaska resident. But, you know, I travel every two weeks for work.
So you're near Anchorage?
It's about an hour north, yeah.
Is your flying site then Hatcher Pass, right?
Yeah, yeah. That's actually – That's
kind of the local flying site. Okay. So seaplanes, helicopters, hang gliders, paramotors, paragliders, what's your favorite? Have I missed any there? Can you fly anything else?
So in terms of all the licenses, that's what I have. But I have all but the check ride for the sailplane, so for the gliders. Oh,
my God. You fly sailplanes too? You're ridiculous.
No, I just truly enjoy the learning process and kind of testing yourself, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not somebody that's sitting there breaking records or anything like that. For me, it's just like kind of the pursuit of the knowledge and testing yourself, like saying, hey, can I do this? Or, you know, not everything I do, I'm not like amazing at everything, right? I'm okay. Yeah. Oh, in terms of like my favorite, like I've, you know, I've been obsessed with helicopters since I was a little girl. So when I got that license, I was just so thrilled. And, you know, my – it's something that I had started when I was kind of right. It was right around the time that I got my fixed swing license. But it was one of those things, like I said, it was expensive and I couldn't really dedicate the time. So I had always wanted it, but I had to really wait a long time to get that. And I was just so thrilled to accomplish it.
And for me, like taking it back and doing it in Alaska was really special too.
So helicopters are your favorite?
In terms of like the amount of effort and like I spend so much time and energy and thought goes into learning how to fly it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the only one that's ever like made me emotional in terms of like – I was literally like the first time I launched off of Lookout Mountain, I was like crying. I was just so – it was just such a pure form of flying.
Yeah. And I think being prone is pretty special. You know, you're like a bird. Oh, for sure. Wow. I'm a bird. Which one of those do you kind of have the most respect for or maybe the most fear for?
Like with helicopters, I'll just say the type of helicopter I fly, right? Because it's – it's – It's the R-22, right? So like there's a lot that can go wrong if you're not careful. Like, you know, some of this stuff like in a fixed wing, when you have a lot of hours, you can get a little bit complacent, right? You can like trim it out. You can take your hands off the controls for a second if you need to or whatever. But you don't really do stuff like that in helicopters. I mean, it's like it requires vigilance because in the event of emergency, you have 1.2 seconds to react to get that collective down to enter the auto rotation. And then as you go up in altitude, your kind of time window starts shrinking. So in terms of like you always feel like, oh my gosh, like you can't really like – you enjoy it, but you can't enjoy it too much.
But I've always enjoyed the solo flying. Paramotor – paragliders, to me, the launch has always felt a little bit different. Like I've seen some people do some crazy things where I thought like, holy smokes, is this person going to survive the launch? Or you just kind of see like poor decisions sometimes where people maybe are launching out of – you know, you just – as an observer, you just kind of see like poor decisions sometimes where people maybe are launching out of – or sometimes you're just like, man, I can't believe somebody's launching in those conditions. But, you know, everybody has a different, I guess – Threshold. Skill set. Yeah, and thresholds, you know, comfort and stuff. But, yeah, like the paraglider launching, to me, I always found that very different compared to the others.
Denise, for the entertainment of our listeners, I think probably a lot of people don't know about auto rotation. It's fascinating and, to me, just incredibly scary. So describe what an auto rotation is. What does auto rotation with a helicopter entail?
So, essentially, it's like if you have an engine failure or something like that, right? Because now you – like picture like a pinwheel. Like remember those little things as a kid? You'd have it and you'd have to blow on it. So the whole point of auto rotation is you've got to keep that main rotor spinning, right?
So you're having to manage between your collective and your cyclic. So you have one that's collectively changing the pitch of the blades and the other one that's kind of like cycling through. So you're trying to manage that energy to make sure that you're keeping the main blade spinning and you have like a little RPM threshold there. Because obviously you can't overspeed the rotor, but you also – if it slows down too much, it becomes something that you can't recover from, right? So your blades can tool up or something horrifying can happen like that and you're just – you're going to fall like a refrigerator at that point. But, yeah, auto rotation is itself. Like there's some super talented pilots out there that can enter it. Like from conditions that most of us probably couldn't. Most of us, you know, like when you're getting your private license and stuff like that, like you're kind of entering it from always like a standard set of conditions.
Like, okay, you already have a forward airspeed of like, you know, 60 knots or something like that. And then you're just trying to maintain your airspeed because you're going to have to need – you need that energy at the bottom to flare too. Because you can imagine like that's it. You don't have power. You're just coming down and then you're going to flare and just set the helicopter down. But in the same way – In the same way, like in the United States and stuff like that, like I can't speak for overseas. I'm not sure. You actually – they don't train you in those schools to do full set down autos. It's something that you do recover at the very end. Crazy.
So the way you're describing it, I think of like SIV with paragliding. We go and go to a course and take SIV and you're taking it in perfect conditions. It's not combat.
It's over the water with somebody in your ear telling you everything to do. And I think people often forget. They forget that when it happens in real life, it's a little different.
Oh, absolutely. But that's why it's so important to practice. You're hoping that the muscle memory takes over, right? Because some of that stuff you probably wouldn't even have time to think about.
So when you're flying a helicopter, how many auto rotations are you doing a year?
I mean there's no standard like that. It's something that like for instance if you're solo and you're renting somebody else's stuff, they actually wouldn't allow you to go do that on your own. Their expectation is that – I mean you can respect that. You can respect their decision too, right? Because it's a minimum quarter million dollar machine. They don't want you to go – obviously they don't want you to kill yourself, but they also don't want you to destroy their machine. Right. So yeah, it's something that like whenever – if I'm going solo flying and stuff like that, that's great, but I'll always make sure I practice auto rotations with an instructor just before I go up because in the event you're by yourself, like what are you going to do, right? You got to make sure you can save yourself. Yeah.
Yeah. Are you traveling a lot to fly or these days because you're working so much in those two weeks off, you're just mostly going home and flying at home?
So a lot of these licenses have been kind of spread out. Like I used to love traveling to go learn something new because I would like do all my research online and say, okay, where do I think I can go get some good instruction? So like hang gliding was in Lookout Mountain. The paramotors was in California, in Northern California. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I did the helicopter tour in Santa Barbara, Helicopters of Alaska, Maine. I did the sea planes and then the fixed wing I did in California. So I used to be totally willing to go out and travel for it, but I do find now that I don't like to do it as much. Like now I just take my wing somewhere and like as far as paragliding goes, I'll just fly locally in Hatcher's Pass.
Other than that, like helicopters, I've done it in California too. But it's just because it's like kind of where you can go out. There's flight schools throughout the country that you can go and, you know, either rent their equipment or whatever, because it's a lot easier than having to take stuff with you.
How is flying? I mean, usually I would say, you know, how is paragliding or hang gliding changed your life? But with you, it's just flying. How is flying changed your life?
So for me, it was kind of maybe a confidence thing. So because I studied, you know, chemical engineering at UCSD, like it was very like I spent a lot of time just kind of focusing on schoolwork. And then I got thrust into like a predominantly male dominated industry with the oil and gas industry. And I was in a remote location. So for me, like it was number one in the escape, a way to kind of. Daydream a little bit and kind of picture going out and doing things I've always wanted. But it's also like to accomplish certain things. Right. You gain more and more confidence and you're just it kind of makes you a safer pilot. But that's where I got like I wasn't always like dressing up in costumes and stuff like that. It was something that as I got more confident and kind of felt like, OK, it's not going to distract me from actually flying the aircraft or whatever it is I'm doing.
But that's actually how I started off. There was like a film. Festival in Northern California. It was probably about six or seven years ago. And it was like a free flight film festival. And like the what I made for that entry was it was I called it overcoming fear. So I made different characters that I would say like, OK, like if you're too afraid to go tackle something yourself, create a character and have them go tackle it for you. So I made like two characters. One was a female. One was a man. And the female was based off of like one of my favorite songs at the time. It was like Sia's chandelier song. So like there was a certain way the girl dressed in the video with like this ballerina outfit. So that's kind of what I did. It was like super, super embarrassing looking back on it.
But for the guy, it was kind of my way of expressing like having always been surrounded in that kind of industry or even like with so much of flight instruction. It's almost predominantly men teaching you. So it was kind of my way of poking fun at always having you. And I was like, OK, I'm going to try to get that feeling of like people expect you to be one of the guys and stuff like that. So I kind of made those characters like one just for that video. By the way, I learned how to do the paramotors and I did it dress up as the girl, you know, as just as the ballerina and stuff, which was super funny because I can tell you falling down in tights is not a good time.
Yeah, I had some pretty gnarly grass stains and everything else. And um, but yeah, I mean, that's kind of how I started off. Like, I didn't really know how to articulate the way I was feeling. So I was like, OK, I'm just going to do this performance art. So for me, it's like a big confidence boost, I think.
Is performance art something you've done before? You've mentioned this costume thing a couple of times. I should probably take you down a little bit. What's with the costumes?
Yeah, I just, I guess I never really, like, whenever I kind of share stuff, like, I should say that I put a lot of time and effort into that film festival submission. And I think that's kind of what I learned. And that film festival actually got canceled that year. So I never, I never got to, like, show anybody. So I was like, oh, man, like, that's super disappointing. But I was like, OK, I'm going to just post it on YouTube and see what happens. And of course, people were like, what is this?
So it was kind of a good experience, too, right? Because it's like the expectation versus reality. Just because you put a lot of time and effort into something, it's sometimes difficult to portray to others what you're actually thinking or feeling. Because I don't really like to maybe talk a lot. I just kind of prefer to just let the action speak for itself in terms of the flying.
So anyway, I learned something from that. And I have submitted again. And I actually got to show one of my films at one of those film festivals maybe a year or so later. And, you know, it did OK. But, like, honestly, like, I got to see how other people's take on stuff was. Always different. Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely the only one doing the, you know.
I'm the only one doing the bizarre route. I don't know how else to describe it. Because I was just trying to show maybe a different perspective, right? Because obviously there's some super high skill level pilots out there that are doing absolutely crazy things visually. Whereas for me it was more like, OK, I can't do that. But I can, you know, if I still have a right to participate, I'm going to participate at my own level. I'm not going to take an unnecessary risk. But I'm going to do something that I think is kind of funny. And that was kind of always my goal with this. It's like, man, you know. Maybe at least I can make people laugh.
Have you been to St. Hilaire for Kupacar? No, I haven't. You would be the best entry there. You've probably seen videos of it and pictures and that kind of thing. But, I mean, everybody dresses up. Thousands and thousands and thousands of people. It's the biggest festival in paragliding and, well, in freelance. I mean, they have ballooning and acro and hang gliding and everything. But it's the biggest festival in the world flying every year. It's in September. And it's a hoot. And if you like dressing up, you'd love it. It's just terrific. People do some amazing, you know, like 50-foot long dragons and just fantastic stuff. You know, eating wine and brie as they're flying around. And it's good. It's very entertaining. Yeah.
Okay. So, the rig. What do you think it is about you and your personality? You are definitely partaking not only in, you know, your recreational time but in business time in very male-dominated things. We were talking before we started recording that you run the rig. Is that right?
Yeah. So, as a well-side leader. So, overseeing all the drilling operations. And your
position, they've had to change this, I think, because you're in it. But you're called a what man or something?
So, traditionally, it's known as a company man. Company man. Yeah. It's kind of the way the title is. But now it's more so like well-side leader or just kind of other. Other companies call it different things like maybe drilling manager or something like that.
And what's that like being in that position as a female? I mean, I don't need to get into the sexist stuff too much. But it's, I mean, I imagine that's pretty tricky. You said you're the only female on the rig, right?
Yeah, on mine for sure. Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's something that I think when I was younger, of course, the experiences were a lot different. Because when you've never seen something before. Obviously, you have the knowledge gap is huge, right? You have so much to learn. So, you kind of feel intimidated too because, you know, it's a different culture. It's kind of hard to explain it. You've never been around it. But the expectations, you know, people can be kind of rough to each other in terms of how they talk or anything like that. And, you know, when you're just straight out of college and like I said, you've never even seen a rig before. And somebody's talking to you a certain way, you're just kind of like horrified and you're just super upset. But you're kind of like, okay. Like I would just kind of be quiet. And I was like, okay, like I need to study a lot and make sure that I have to do my best to close that knowledge gap.
You know, what else can you do? Like I don't think quitting is always the right answer. Like just because you face hardship, you know what I mean? Like it's like, okay, it's a hard industry. I mean, I'm not in prison. This is voluntary. So, like obviously, like, you know, if I chose to be here, I can't complain. So, it was one of those things where I was like, okay, I'm going to suck it up. I'm going to study and just make sure that I just learn something new every day. And I kind of take my hobbies the same way.
Is it enjoyable being on the rig? I mean, is it something that, you know, when you're having these two weeks off like you are now, you're going back tomorrow. Is that right?
Yeah, I'll be flying back tomorrow. I've done it a long time. So, I think I don't always get the same like fear factor or anything like that. Like you're just kind of more focused on accomplishing a task. And you want everybody to be safe. And, you know, you want to do well. Because you're going to be there. Because we all, you know, we all kind of exist. We get to operate as long as we're doing a good job. So, it's kind of like a lot of different pressures, right? It's not just technology or people management or anything like that. You know, it's also financial. So, you have to make sure that you're not overspending budgets or anything like that.
Are you always on land-based rigs or both, ocean and land?
So, my experience in the lower 48 and stuff like that has always been on land. And in Alaska, I did get to go out to the Beaufort Sea. They had a man-made island there. That was really different. But because it freezes, you would like drive out to it.
Whoa. Bizarre. You said that hang gliding was the one kind of form of aviation that you undertook that really made you super emotional. Talk about that a little bit more.
Yeah. So, I learned how to fly in the Lakella Mountain. And I'm not sure if you've ever seen what they're ranked. I don't know what the ramp looks like. But it's pretty gnarly. It's pretty steep. Yeah. And I think now, like maybe this last year, so they started allowing paraglider pilots to start flying there as well. But when I had learned back then, it was only for hang gliders. And so, they kind of train you. Everything, I guess, the training starts kind of similar, right? You start on small hills. You kind of progressively work your way up. But you kind of go from like, you know, maybe 50 foot to maybe like 100 or 150 foot. And then next thing you know, you're like in the thousands range. Because they say it all kind of flies the same. Like there's no point in kind of taking more increments than that.
So, I remember doing the training and then going up to that launch site. And I was like, holy smokes. Like it was so steep. It was so cold. It was in maybe January. I don't know how long it's been now. Maybe seven or eight years ago. And I remember my mom was with me. And, you know, she was just holding me. And I was terrified when she saw that ramp. I remember because I'm, you know, with hang gliders, right, you had to kind of set it up and tear it down every single time. So, like I was setting it up and it takes about, you know, 15, 20 minutes or so. So, I'm kind of off to the side there. And I could hear my mom telling that instructor. She was like, look, I don't think Denise would fly today. She was just so scared. Like it's just such a breathtaking, you know, it's a gorgeous area, you know, for those of you that don't know it.
but if you definitely just take the time to look it up, it's pretty shocking. Yeah.
So like, I was kind of nervous and I hear my mom saying that and I was like, Holy smokes, you know, maybe, maybe I shouldn't do it. But I remember like I kind of set it up and then of course the instructor trying to offer encouragement too. But the only other really experiences I had up to that point, like I had done the skydiving, I had done, you know, I had my fixed wing license and stuff like that. But when I actually took those steps and then, uh, it's just such a sheer, sheer drop off of that ramp. I remember when it, when everything actually like you actually hang in your straps and you're like, Oh my God, like you're so relieved, but, uh, you're just so overwhelmed too. Or at least I was, I was so, uh, I had thought about it for such a long time, you know, in San Diego, seeing the hang glider pilots at Torrey Pines, I'd always got to watch people.
I, um, yeah, I don't know. Like I, it's just something that I had thought about for such a long time and finally getting to do it myself. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I can do this. And it was just such a beautiful flight too. I mean, it was definitely, even though you're up so high, like it was still, you know, a sled run, uh, cause they chose like a super calm day for your first time you, you launch. And, um, but I remember just kind of, uh, flying and kind of taking the hands off and they want you to kind of find the trim and stuff like that, or just kind of play around with it a little bit. They would give you like simple tasks. And I was just really, um, yeah, it was just such a, out of all the things I've done, like there's, uh, kind of few things that I really stuck in my brain. And that's kind of one of them is just that the kind of first time launching off that ran.
Do you think that's ever that feeling is something you can have again? Cause you hear from people all the time. And I'm certainly one of these people as well that, you know, in some ways our flying careers are always chasing that first flight. That sensation is indescribable.
I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think experience too, because I've always been obsessed with it. But I remember like, there was no time for tears. Like you don't get to just, you know, fine trim, take your hands off, nothing like this, right? Like it was such a intense feeling. Like I was really excited and happy, but you feel it more like after the fact, rather than like while you're doing it, or you feel like super anxious, like before, cause you're just like, well, the instructor finally tells you, okay, you know, I'm going to hop out.
Now you're going to go solo. You're just like, holy smokes. Um, I do remember my first solos for the fixed wing and stuff like that too. But it was once again, one of those things where you're like, you're a little bit anxious, but you're so focused, um, on the task at hand. Cause they, they have you do something very specific, like, okay, you're going to go fly in the pattern at the airport three times. And that's your first solo. Whereas with hang gliding, it's like, no, I mean, you're, you're kind of like everybody else. Like it's maybe hard to identify the first solo. I mean, like, obviously, you know, you could maybe tell from the type of glider person that's flying, it's more of a beginner's glider or something, but you know, it's, uh, I think it's harder to identify, right. Because you're, you're just like the person next to you. Whereas in the airplane, like nobody else is just sitting there circling the patterns like that.
Do you have flying, flying goals and ambitions?
Yeah. Um, I, I have thought about,
like for me, it's no longer about like accumulating ratings or certificates or anything like that. Like that's, it's just not that interesting for me. Like I've, uh, I've tried certain things. Um, like I've done wing walking, uh, you know, I went and got the tail dragger endorsements. Um, I've flown in some amphibious planes. So at this kind of point in my life, I like to go try different things and I'm, I still guess I'm searching for something. Um, I don't know, like before I commit to purchasing something, I like to kind of get a feel for like what is out there, but I do want to, uh, in the near future, kind of own my own aircraft. But other than that, like, I still like to just make little kind of silly videos and kind of the desire to make people laugh. Right. It's just, it's still going to be something lighthearted for me. Do
you have other hobbies too, or is flying your, your kind of biggest hobby? Do you ski? Do you do other stuff up in Alaska that's not flying based?
Yeah, for sure. Like, uh, and you know, keep in mind, like flying does take up majority of my time just because I've invested so much time, you know, in the military. So I've been into it over, you know, how many years now, 10, 12 years. I do have a couple of motorcycles in addition to that. Like I can ski, but you know, I went to high school in Northern California, so it was near Tahoe. Um, so like the military, um, would have buses and stuff that could like bus you up there. And so there's some other stuff that I can do, but I would say like flying is what I do. Definitely the best.
Of all the places you've flown, what's your favorite?
Well, Like Alaska has always been, um, kind of a special place to fly. Uh, there's such a big aviation community up there. Um, and I, I love seeing the mountains. Like it's really something that I, that's like one of my favorite solo flights is just going and flying in the mountains or even with the sea planes itself, like just go landing in a random lakes. Um, there's, there's just so much opportunity for flying up there and the scale of the mountains is just, uh, is very humbling.
Hmm. That's big. Alaska. Yeah. It's just big.
Yeah. It's, and it's crazy too, because it's like, you know, such a small population, right? It's, it's got more coastline than the entire lower, lower 48 combined. I know
that's, that's amazing. Yeah. It's crazy. It's a huge, it's just so vast. It's really hard. I, I very, I struggled. We struggled with that and making the film up there, North unknown film that we did in the Alaska range. It was, it was hard to articulate just the scope of everything. It just makes you feel really, really, really, I've spent a lot of time at sea, which makes you feel very small, but some about those mountains, some of them out that state, it's just, it's just big. It's huge.
Yeah, for sure.
Two questions to wrap us up. What's been the biggest challenge of your flying career. And then the second one, what's been the biggest challenge of your professional career?
In terms of the flying itself, I'd say the greatest challenges that I faced was, and we touched on it some, right? Like I spend so much time away balancing,
balancing the hobbies and the interests. Like there's a give and take, right? Something's always going to suffer. And sometimes
you have to pick and choose. Like there's certain things I don't ever want to let kind of cross the line. I don't want to let it be a challenge. I don't want to let it be a challenge. I don't want to let it crumble. Right? Like I spent so much time and money on the helicopters. I just kind of feel like obligated in a way to kind of keep that current. So yeah, I mean, because I have to balance my work and life, my hobbies like that. And I've always had to do it without the time off. I think my biggest challenge is just finding the time, I guess, to dedicate to anything without getting burnt out. And professionally. You know, I did, I did my masters while working full time. You know, there's a lot of responsibility as you kind of move up to where you're operating. And I'd say, I guess the biggest challenge itself is like, you you're, you're pulled in so many directions, you want to do a really good job.
You want the people because they kind of become your brothers in a way like you're seeing the same people. Just give you an idea of people work minimum 12 hour shifts, and you're working for two weeks straight. So you spend a lot of time together with the crews. So you see them like your brothers, you want them to stay safe, but you want to do a good job. So you're pulled in a lot of different directions. So in terms of multitasking, like, that always comes to the forefront, right? So I'd say professionally, like juggling so many things at once. It's just like private life, right? Like, it's always give and take, right? Something always wants your attention.
It's always a negotiation.
Yeah, for sure. I'm always grateful for the opportunities that I've been given, right? Like, if I'm given an opportunity, I want to give it to somebody. Like, if I'm given an opportunity, I want to give it to somebody. Like, if I'm given an opportunity, I want to give it to somebody. I try to do a good job, because then you hope that it opens the door for others that come behind you, right? And it's men or women. Like, I don't want to make it seem like just one sided, right? Like, I'm grateful for any young person to be given an opportunity. And hopefully by doing an honorable job, you make that available to others. Sure. My main point of flying and stuff like that, too, is like, I came, I guess, from a really different, you know, because I'm not like this accomplished, like, record holders or nothing like that. Mine was more like, the ability to share with others, when you spend so much time in remote locations, I think that was mostly my hope, right? Just like reaching out to people, the wider audience.
I've had,
I think what's given me the most joy, too, was just sharing the flying adventures with people that maybe have never tried it before, right? Because you're not necessarily going to impress somebody that's done it all. But somebody that hasn't gets to see it, and maybe they get inspired, they get to go, they get to go try it or that's kind of what makes me the happiest, I think. Like, number one, I do enjoy it when somebody gets a good laugh out of it, because it's meant to be lighthearted. But sometimes people write me, they say, Hey, like, they want to learn more about, like, for some reason, people are super fascinated by para loaders. So like, they always want to reach out and say, like, Hey, what is that? Like, Hey, how do you get into that or whatever? And I kind of love that, the knowledge sharing, but it's what keeps the sports alive, too, right? Or it keeps the hobbies alive or, or whatever, right? Like, I'm always afraid of hang gliding going away, because that's one thing that I don't really see my life as a sport.
much in Alaska. And I do want to take a hang glider up there and, and, you know, kind of keep doing my little solo flying and stuff like that. But I'm most afraid of that stuff just vanishing one day. And like, what a shame it would be because there's so many people that came before us that took those risks to develop it. It just seems like a sad way to die off.
Yeah, I had a great talk in the last show with Larry Buhner. They did this X flight expedition from the Gulf of Mexico. Yeah. To Canada, the Canadian border and a series of flights where they were, there was car supported, but they all the South to North flight, it was all done in the air, you know, so they could move laterally, but they had to fly if they were going North. And, and awesome talk. It was, it was really fascinating. And it made, but it also made me realize how much knowledge they all have. When I was doing the Alaska Traverse, one of the, I took off above, you know, where the road goes through between and Denali's off on your left. And
I was like, Oh, I'm going to fly. And I was like,
Oh, I'm going to fly.
And I was like, Oh, I'm going to fly. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to fly. I forget the
name of it. Cantwell. And then just beyond Cantwell, there's a little tiny village that's kind of where a lot of people kind of Mount, they've stayed before they go into the park. I can't remember that. And there's a little tiny village there and they have a pizza place. Anyway, I was holed up there in really bad weather for quite a few days. And then I took off where I kind of started going again after Dave left, I took off from, it was like Panorama Peak or something. And you know, you're, you're up there and you're like, there's no way anybody's ever flown from here before. And the hang gliders were using it back in the seventies. They were walking up there and flying off and it just like, well, I'm not that special at all. These guys have been, they were up here decades ago and it's just, there's a lot of knowledge there that, uh, you know, that we're slowly losing.
Yeah, for sure.
No, we got, we got to, got to keep, got to keep the hanging hangies alive for sure. Not the, not the people that the sport is very special.
Just in general. Right. Like it's something that, uh, it's something that I noticed too, with like, uh, when you share stuff either on social media or whatever, like a lot of people that haven't been through it, can't relate to the effort or the skill or whatever it is. Right. Like, uh, the demand too. And that's something that I really feel strongly about is like, because I try to post different types of things, if it gets too much like negativity or too much positivity, I actually ignore extremes because, uh, it totally kills your creativity. Like if you're always getting praised, then you're always going to keep doing the same thing. Right. But if you're like the kind of the outliers to the super negative people, like, okay, they're not really contributing. They're just like, like, why is it? Like, what is it making them so negative? So it's hard to even tell sometimes if you're talking to a person or a bot.
Um, but yeah, just in general, like that's kind of been my experiences. Like that's, I kind of feel like my contribution or way of paying it forward is like, at least to try to keep that interest alive in some of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, Denise, I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know I know with you you're a fascinating person i hope i get to see you in costume one of these days flying around that sounds like a lot of fun and thanks for sharing your stories with us i really appreciate it
yeah cool thank you bye cheers
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Let me remind you again. Let me remind you again. Let me remind you again. Let me remind you again. Let me remind you again.