Hi there, everybody. Welcome to episode 101 of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I recorded this sitting in a car with Primo Sousa quite a few weeks back when I was back in Slovenia and Europe, and we had a really nice talk. I had a chance to fly with he and Alex Roby and Aaron Durogati and a bunch of other guys on a really fun Triangle Day in Antholtz back in July, and I'd been wanting to sit down with Primo because along with Alex Roby, you know, we had this great show with Alex Roby a few episodes back. If you haven't heard that one, you must. It's just packed with information. But if you look at X Contest right now, I think Alex is in like third and number one, and he's often in that position, is my guest today, Primo Sousa. So he's an incredible pilot from Slovenia, been at this game a really long time, has some great insights on how to keep it safe, how to fly big lines, how to glide well.
And like I said, we couldn't find a really quiet place to do it there at the campground, so we just jumped in his car. And I turned on the recorder, and we talked. So please enjoy the show with Primo Sousa, an awesome pilot who knows how to go big, and I think you'll get a lot out of this. Enjoy.
It's great to talk to him, and I've been wanting to talk to you for literally years. I thought a good place for us to start is 2009. You competed in the X-Alps. I'm still coming off the whole kind of... The downside of competing in the X-Alps, I always find it kind of hard after the race, like you've done so much training and preparation and everything, and all of a sudden it's like, now what do you do? Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
What's something that still for you really stands out from the race? When you think back on it, is there a particular flight or a particular walk or something, or something crazy that happened in the race that still cracks you up?
Yeah, it was like this, that I fell out of the race around... Okay. And then I rest for about four days, and then I continue solo with just my gear, because my idea was to finish the route.
When you say
fell out of the race, you were eliminated, or... I was eliminated, yeah. Okay.
And so I continue on my own, and there was actually, I took off 13 times on the whole route until I reached Nice. But the kind of the best... Flight I had, one of the scariest was the landing in Martigny, the best flight was from Brianson down to, it's a small village, Roura, it's almost, it's like 50 kilometers from Nice. And then the last day, it was the end of the earth, it was so big, thunderstorms. Wow. So I was walking, but it didn't touch me at all. So I was, I started to walk early in the morning, and I was walking the last 50 k's air distance down to Nice. And the whole day I was walking. And one guy comes down, and he said, because we meet the day before, and he said, behind you, it's the end of the world.
And I'm walking down, and this, it's just a lot of wind in the valley everywhere. And it was just giving me power to finish this walk. And the whole day I was walking, behind of me, this huge cumulonimbus was growing. And at the end of the day, when I reached down, this cloud was just... I mean, it literally melted into the sky. So the whole thing, whatever you could see, was this huge cumulonimbus developing the whole day, and just covering everything in the end. So this was like the end of my... That is so
cool. So how long did it take to finish the course?
Because I was going really, if there was one month. Ah, okay. So I stayed... Because that was the year,
that was the year Hansa got third. That was the year, it was a really bad weather year. It was really bad weather year. Yeah. Roma did quite well that year, because he basically ran the whole thing, right? Okay.
I'm not sure, because then after I stopped following, so I was just... You were just having fun. I was just going, yeah. So... That is really cool that you kept going. I was on the road, like, I didn't follow anything at that time. So I was just on my own going, and that was...
And the elimination, was that heartbreaking? Was that... It
was like this, that I went on the... At that time, there was no stopping of the race. Yeah. So, and I went on the mountain to fly the next day. And during the night, one other guy said he's quitting. So the next day, I was on the cut, and the other guys were walking the whole day. So they were past Lienz, and a bit maybe towards Siljan, I'm not sure. And I was still on this side. So my idea was to... To fly the next day. But now the timing was bad. So the timing was, at 12, it's the end. So it was 10 o'clock.
The weather is not yet ready for flying. At that time, it was... I mean, this day was not. And still, the takeoff was not really high. So I took off at 10. I had not a beep up. So I was just gliding down. And that was it. So that was the end.
Ah, shit. Brutal. Did you ever think about doing it again? My
idea at the time was, I want to cross the Alps. And I didn't come into the race so much to compete. But my idea from the start, when I went there, was to finish. I want to do the route. Because we were planning it with some other friends for a really long time. And it was kind of like 10 years of my flying at that time already. So it was like the cherry. And it really felt like that. The last day that I flew from Brienzon down, it was not the best flight. It was the most crazy flight, I would describe it. Because half of the flight, I was scared. Then I meet in the air.
On the route, there was English-British nationals. So I came into this thermal. Like San Andrei? I'm not sure. Actually, this big lake from Brienzon down, there is another.
Oh, yeah. Saint Vincent and Gap, probably. Embram Lake,
maybe. Not sure, maybe. So there is a take-off there, actually. And I came into a lead, not gaggle. It was a huge gaggle waiting for that start. So I came in. I was super relaxed. Now I'm with some other guys. They know what's happening. So I'm climbing to the top. They start the race. And I'm going back into the big mountains. And I'm getting scared again. Nobody knowing where you are. You're just a leaf taking around with the winds. And then I was just flying with some cell planes. It was super good condition. I went to 4,000 something. So I was lost. I was lost with the Garmin GPS. No map, nothing.
So it was okay on the ground. But in the air, I had no idea where I am. So I'm looking for one path. Where is this path? And where is this valley with the Isola, small village Isola? So I'm looking for this valley. I couldn't find it. And then finally, I see the path. Super small down below. Because normally, people make this path on the ground or super low. Yeah, just barely over it. In 2013,
I barely cleared that.
This is a bit further than Barcelona 8. Yeah. So I was there in stratosphere. That's an amazing day down there. I couldn't see the path. I mean, I couldn't see the valley where I need to go. It was just mountains like this. So yeah. And then finally, I found this valley. And then I know where I need to go. And after
the elimination, did you carry on just by yourself? Or did you keep your team? No, no,
no. I just by myself. Okay.
And I got to hear about the scary landing in Martini. Because that is a famous place for wind. Yeah, yeah. I've never landed down in there. I've done that feast triangle a lot. I've flown in that area a lot. But I've always... You know, this year... Crossing there into Chamonix, I was like, I don't want to go down there. Yeah, sure.
I mean, it's like this, that some things you just need to know. Yeah. And some things you just find out on your own. Ah, you just found it out? I found it out on my own. You didn't know about that place? I didn't know that it's so problematic there to land. So it was like this. I started on Riederalp. I had an average day. But in this, let's say, my travel was like fantastic. Because I could fly from Riederalp, from Aleš Glitčel, down to Martini. This was like, wow. Yeah. With all the bad weather. Yeah. With all the bad weather before. And it's beautiful flight. Anyway, I was flying the whole flight on the kind of middle of the mountains. So really average day. But then I reach Martini and it was kind of stable.
I could not do anything. So before it, there is like a small valley going in in the mountains towards north. And I was struggling there even to stay up. And then I said, okay, finally, after an hour, I think I said, okay, it's just not working. I cannot go up. So I went out around the corner and towards Martini. And then it's just starting to become really stronger and stronger. So I'm at some point, I'm going full bar, thermals going up like and backwards and a bit of collapses and I'm watching where will I land here? Because down there, I couldn't see. It's a nasty spot. Yeah. I didn't see. I mean, it's a huge valley, but I didn't see the good landings because there was so just so many of these for the plants, these vineyards and
all the fences, power
lines. Yeah. So I'm thinking just the best would be just to go really maybe, I mean, if I need to land, just maybe the best is just to go in the middle of the valley. And even if I get dragged, there is like some straight channel that's
going to be there.
But I could maybe try to land there. And then I see in some village before the there, I see a small patch of field like grass and some field like for, I don't know, potato or whatever. And I said, I will land there. So then I'll start to push full bar in there, thermals almost, I mean, thermals going backwards, a bit of collapses and full bar, full bar, full bar until the ground exactly inside that village, inside that field. That little field. Yeah. Awesome. And the one guy came and he just start to do like this with the hands, like it's really like sketchy. Yeah. Because it was, and the traffic signs start to do, sometimes when I was packing the traffic signs start to do like, it was strong wind and that was the most scary for me on the whole route actually.
Yeah.
Wow. Yeah. It's that race. I mean, even if you weren't, you weren't in the race at that point, but that race will put you in positions that are, that are, that are tenuous for sure.
This was kind of the hardest, the most scary moment and the hardest moment was before the Galibier Pass. I was, at that time I felt super fit, no problems. I can, I landed a bit before, so it was like 30 kilometers on the ground until the pass. So I'm thinking this I can do just today. Yeah. And then finally I got, uh, some kind of food poisoning in the village with some pizza and I needed three days to get on that bus. And then the next day when I was on the top, I called a friend, where did Alex Hoffa took off here? Because, uh, I mean, this looks to me like Lee and he said, yeah, he took off somewhere exactly where you are.
So I take off. And I had a splash down to the valley. I think it was not more than 10 minutes. I was back on the ground. So this was the hardest moment, I think, because at that moment, and then my boss calls me and he says, yeah, when you're coming home, I mean, when you come to work and I said just few more days and then I'm finished.
So yeah, I walked down to, uh, Brianson, walked the mountain, sleep on the mountain. And then the first, it was the first day that I woke up and I said, okay, today you fly. Or you go on the train and you go home. And then was this like the best flight of the whole trip for me, uh, and, uh, yeah, then just one day of walk more and then he
made it, that had to feel good. I thought, I thought it was pretty stylish in, uh, in the 2015 race, Dave Turner did the same thing. He wasn't, I don't think he was eliminated, uh, but that was a year where, you know, 19 got in. A lot of people made it. Yeah. And he was still maybe two 50 or so out when the race ended and he just kept going. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I mean,
for me it made the only sense because anyway, this is what I came for and, uh, uh, yeah, it was perfect ending. Finally, before
we started recording, you were talking about your history. You started 23 years ago. He started in 96 and said you were quite lucky. Talk about the, how it started and how you got into the sport. Yeah,
I was, I always wanted to fly. So in, when I was in elementary school, they were asking kids, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? So I said, I was thinking, I want to, what should I say?
Did, did you live in Ljubljana then?
No. It's so super near to Ljubljana.
Okay. And, but in, in elementary school it was Yugoslavia, correct? Was it? Yeah. Okay. It hadn't been broken up yet. No,
no, no. Okay. Yeah. So I'm thinking, what should I say that it will be more cool than everyone else? So I said, I want to be a pilot when I grow up. So yeah. And then, um, it was always like two things or computers or, or flying, um, and I wanted to fly cell planes. Uh, we had a national lottery and there was a huge, I mean, there was a like famous kind of still famous, I think Elan cell plane that you could win. I bought a lottery ticket and I didn't win. And then, uh, one neighbor said, Hey, why don't you try paragliding? Andres knows Nick. Uh, and, uh, I said, yeah, I didn't know anything about it. So I was thinking, yeah, I might just jump out the mountains until I start to fly cell planes.
And then, uh, yeah. And then I started and what is really cool about paragliding for me, that is just opening up the, the more, you know, the more you, uh, get better. Yeah. The possibilities are just opening up what more you can do. So it was just amazing. Six years. I was just thinking about, about this, how to fly, how, how to get higher, how to fly further. And yeah. So I was using those program to, to plan my roots a to B and then, yeah. So yeah, like this
was, was, uh, was cross country kind of immediate. I understand you, you started flying when you're 18.
Yes. Yes. Yes. What
was cost cross country immediately available to you? Did you know that? I mean, when I, when I get in flying, I didn't know that that was even a part of it. I thought you launched there and you landed here. When I learned that, I don't know when it wasn't immediate. It was, you know, I think it was actually when I watched my first deck selves, which I think was 2007. I thought, wait, what you can travel.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me it was like this, that exactly like you, I mean, I didn't know, I was just thinking you can fly down and then I'm, I'm thinking, I'm wondering, I see people higher than the mountains around and I'm thinking, how did they get there even, uh, then, uh, yeah, then I figured out, okay, you can sort, you can climb. And then one friend, um, brought up like a paper and he was declaring a task. So what's this, this is cross country. So you travel from A to B and then maybe come back. So just fascinating about this. I was really super lucky with, uh, with my friends and first with my instructor and then with my friends around me because they really, I think pull me up, uh, that I could fly better and just first show me what, what is possible, what they're doing, what's even happening
and then making me better. Uh, so this was really cool. How
have you approached, we talked about this a bit with Alex, good friend of yours. This
is a good friend of yours.
You fly a lot with, uh, I was saying before we started recording that I, you know, I'm kind of an X contest junkie at home. We have a lot of unflyable days, so I'm always checking X contest to see what people have done. And then I try to analyze their tracks. That's part of what I feel is a smart thing to do with, uh, so when I come over here, I can hopefully fly bigger lines, but it's very often you and Alex, when I look at X contest that you guys are right there at the top of the score. That day. How do you go from, how have you gone from, you know, when you learned 18, 20, 20 something years ago to where you are now? What's been the, what's been the key points of that progression?
I think the key points is always, um, like goals, setting goals. Uh, so first really knowing what you want, um, even before or have like ideas. So in general, I think. To have ideas thought out before you're actually doing it. It's already a good step and to have, let's say if you are flying cross country to have an idea what you want to do, uh, in that day, that will actually happen tomorrow. Uh, it's half of the win because in the area, you're not wondering what to do now. You exactly know, um, what your main goal is and then just breaking up, breaking it up step by step. So.
You're just dealing with one problem at that at a time. Um, so first, just like now I need to take off, then I need my first thermal, then, and so on and so on. So this is how the day progress, but the whole picture you have, in my opinion, you have to have one day before or whatever you have to have it in your mind because when you have, when you just go to fly a bit and you have, you realize in there, wow, it's a great day. You climb to the top.
You go up
to the cloud base and then you say, well, now what, uh, you just don't have idea. I don't have like what you want to do. And that's, let's say what's missing often. And in general, for me, for flying, I think the biggest two things are combination of comps and cross country. Uh, and I think because with this combination, I think you really learn the most how to fly really fast. And because let's say when I was. I was just flying cross country more in the beginning. At one moment you fell in a trap that you're flying just the good days. And then your rhythm and everything is just for the good days. And with the comps, you fly everything, uh, and, um, and you see also other people, what they're doing, because if you're just somewhere alone in the air,
you have your own idea. You're doing that, but actually you don't see the other options. And when, when you start to fly the comps, you see what's even possible. What other people are doing, uh, and, uh, yeah, it makes you better. Um, so these two come and finally, if you, and it's a, it's a loop. So if you want to win the comp, I think you need to be really comfortable flying on your own finally also. So it's a, it's a loop comps and cross country, I think together, like the perfect thing to really be good.
And comps have been a big part of your history.
Yes. I was basically, I started the next year. Yeah. Flying coach. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It was like this, that, uh, I start to fly and my instructor said, ah, next year. So yeah, uh, we have a nationalist now, uh, and I'm thinking I was just quiet. I didn't want to say I want to go also, but I was just exploding. And then he said, do you want, so also want to go, yes, it was the best comp in a way, because I was not thinking at all about anything. Yes. I was just sucking in the, the whole, what was going on.
Yeah. What's the approach that you, what's the advice you would give to people that are just getting into comps? Where, where should the headspace be? Because I have found there's a tricky transition from, you know, if you're the sponge, you don't care about winning, you don't care about where your result is. You really learn a lot, you know, rather than bombing out and kicking your helmet and getting all pissed off. Oh, I'm going to make some notes, what did I do wrong? But then I, but then you've also got a transition to doing well. And uh, I think that transition can be tricky for people.
I think the tricky can be even before because people come maybe to the comps with really high expectations and then this is just not realistic. I mean that your competitors, if you go to a normal comp have seen so many more slides of pictures of the situations. Yeah. Sure. Uh, and you're just starting, um, so I think you should really come without expectation and join the small comps, um, and not stressful comps in, in a way you shouldn't be worrying about results or anything first when you're starting, I think you just should worry about reaching goal. Uh, this should be the first objective and, and just seeing what other guys are doing and then progress from that.
Um, when you can reach the goal at any moment, then you can start to think how you can reach it faster. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. How
do you approach, is that a process you're thinking about? Like when we flew antholds as well, or is that a process you're thinking about when you're on these, on the, on just standard XCs, do you, do you have a rhythm of the day that defines how fast you fly?
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Um. Uh, I mean, it's always the idea that in the, in the morning, uh, you want to stay high and you want to get up and stay high. And then during the day you can go lower and you can take more sportive risk. And again, at the end of the day, you want to, to, to, to go more easy and stay high again. Um, this works for flatlands. Uh, the most. I mean, it's the most obvious. And for the mountains, it's not really a rule, but yeah, it helps to, to do it like that. I mean, to be more conservative and in the beginning, at the end of the day.
When you're, do you instruct too, or you just do tandems?
Um, I have an instructor license, but, uh, I didn't find it too challenging to me and it was just standing on a perfect day in the slope. So somehow I didn't pick that up. Um, yeah, so I'm not teaching,
um, when, when you have, I'm assuming though, you probably have people underneath you that you're kind of mentoring or that people look up to you or they're trying to learn from you. What, what are the kind of the, the typical mistakes or the typical things that you're finding with pilots, uh, at a lower level that what they need to work on?
Yeah, it's always, let's say. It's a good question. What is the most important climbing, gliding, whatever else, uh, I think climbing is always the most important. So you really need to work on, on your climbing and, uh, and then after that perceptions of others of distance. So because others are your other people flying or birds or whatever, it's, they're your helpers. So often I see. Yeah. People sticking with their own thermal, um, and there's just a hundred meters away and then they don't, they don't switch. I mean, it's just 200 meters away. It's like a rocket.
Just go there. Yeah. Um, I was having, uh, some guidings and I found it really funny. I had lower EMB wing always. And for me, when you were guiding, when I was guiding for me, it was hard to stay on the level. I mean, wherever I would go, it would just go up. I mean, just fly around and it will take you up on your, on your own. I mean, you don't need to do anything. Um, when they are sticking to some small lift and just scratching that lift. So yeah. Uh, getting the, I think what you really, what I would, what I had the problem, you don't want to bomb out. You don't want to bomb out.
You're just thinking about, I don't want to bomb out. So you're sticking to every small. Yeah. Small scratch of lift. You don't explore. You don't, you don't go out to search. So just start to accept that finally you will bomb out. And even if you do, so what, uh, and this really helps, um, that you're more comfortable exploring the, the, the, um, it helps also, let's say when you start to do bigger distance. So if you already did 100, so who cares if you've bombed on 50. Or, or on a hundred, I mean, you want to do 200 maybe. So then you can start to fly faster and, and don't care about if you bomb out on 50, this becomes really more obvious when you do 500, let's say, because then you, then
until 300, you have a objection at one o'clock. I need to be on 300. If I'm not there, it's the same. If I bomb, I will not reach 500. So then you can fly really faster because you are thinking in this way, you don't care. If you bomb. Because anyway, if I'm not there at the time, I will not do five. And then it means I bombed. So you can do faster. You can go faster.
How many hours a year do you typically fly or do you try to fly?
So I was flying, I started with a lot. So I was like everything possible. Um, I was doing 400 no, actually no 300 I think it was my, my best, uh, 300 is
a lot.
300 is a lot. My friend is doing 400. So that's why I got, uh, confused, but now I'm not doing that. I'm doing like 150, I think the earlier, yep.
Was there a, was there a time in your, in the last 23 years, I was thinking about comps, but also just standard XC where there was kind of a click, like, ah, like an aha moment. And if so, what, what, what was it? What was the big difference? Well, what was it? What, what allowed you to really
pick up your game? I mean, there was always, I mean, there is many clicks, but one click for me was around six years. I think when I had the feeling that now I really know what the wing is telling me. Um, and that my hands and the brakes, I mean, my hands are just extensions of the brakes and the wing. So this, I think was one aha moment that I kind of, I can even remember. Like, ah, I just know what's happening with the wing. Um, after that, I'm sure, I mean, there is less and less. I mean, the most fun fun part of the thing is when you know, even less. So when there is more black spots, I think it's more fun or more challenging.
I don't know. It's something like that.
Is, is chasing these numbers, is it kind of a Charlotte's web in a sense? Is you know the the X contest thing, you know, for like I don't fly much anymore on days like today where I know it's going to overdevelop. I could go out and get four hours of really good flying, but I want 10 hours, yeah. And in a sense, that's that goes against—I mean, how it was in the beginning is you're chasing 10 minutes. It's just so exciting six times.
a day
Yeah, you just, I don't do that anymore exactly. And I don't, the it's, it gets to this thing where it's like, you know, okay, you get 200, and then you get 250, and then you get the 300, and then you just, you know, if you don't get more, it's kind of like a disappointment. Is that a I
think it's a trap, it's a trap, it's a trap. So, and I think at one moment, like, it's a cross-country trap, maybe? So, at one moment, yeah, this can happen. And, uh, the idea, um, for me, it's like this: uh, I started when there was not many tracks and there was no cross-country online portals database. So, yeah, it was just really a paper, piece of paper and a small community, um, piece of paper and a camera, and you need to photo the paper, you need to photo the glider, you need to photo the where you took off, where you landed, and so on. And, uh, it
It's for me, let's say. If you're doing one route many times, it's the same like climbing in a way you didn't reach yet, what you want there. Um, um, so if you fly 290, it's the same like you would climb to the top of this wall, but then you're missing this last thing.
Quite the last one, yeah.
just ah puff and again, and you do it again and you do it again because you want to do that, and I think people sometimes find it like these guys are flying all the time this, but yeah, I mean I didn't do anything almost the first like the first time like the best what I wanted to do, and now I can quit. So, uh, for me these are like small challenges, and we have here one, we had here one challenge like this. I mean, we were developing a route and it had a lot of world records on it, and finally there was this final thing we want to do, 300 out and return world record, and it didn't happen for five years, and then finally it happened. For me, I didn't care about the record at all anymore, I just wanted to do to finish this route.
We have 300, we know it's possible, we can do it, we just need to do it, and then finally we did it, and It was really, uh, like I got more relaxed, easier. So now I can go other places. This project is done. Other people has maybe this the same kind of projects at home, and you can get stuck with this thing, and then, then you don't explore other stuff. So when I started, what I wanted to say before is also that there was many routes open. So you did this, you did this, everything was kind of new. Now it's not anymore like that. So I had to change a bit my thinking, and I changed it in a couple of ways. One way was that I started to do a lot of hike and fly.
So this was the first time I did this really for me, one hike to the mountain and fly down. It's almost the same good feeling as I would fly 500, and it felt, it started to feel like I'm beginner again, kind of like I got back about this feeling. I don't care about really soaring, even when I do hike and fly, I just want to fly down, and that's the biggest reward, to be again kind of like happy with small things. Uh, this was one thing, and another thing because the routes were, at least in my area, what I did was I kind of lost what else I can do. So with this project finished, now I said, okay, um, kind of reimagine the map in the mountains.
We have so many classic, top classic flights, routes, and people say, "Yeah, I mean they are all the time flying that." But did you fly it? I didn't fly it. So I want to fly it, I need to do it. So I mean, my idea now, I want to do all the big classics in the Alps. This is my challenge for myself. It's like all
the big fais, well, just classic lines, whatever. Yeah, yeah, so
It's, uh, like, uh, reading, uh, this... how you do? You know how it's in English expression that you have like a reading schedule or something like this? You need to read this checklist, the checklist, yeah, something like this... talk
about gliding, because a big part of—I think this is the most mysterious thing for most pilots until they kind of get it—and some, maybe, you know, I—this is something in my own flying that I have really struggled with over the years—is, is, you know, finding these magic lines. I mean, I always think about when you watch Chrigel, you know, Steven Smokers, you know, like every time you turn, you're going the wrong way half the time. So you've got to find the better lines and just keep going. And when you watch Chrigel's track logs, when you—or when you fly with him, he—he feels like you're flying straight all the time. He's just finding these better lines, but teaching that, I have found, or relating that to somebody, is quite difficult.
Yeah, I think actually, um, you should all the time. Maybe it looks straight on the map, but you basically need to adjust the line all the time, especially if you're flying with some other friends. It's easier than, and on the comps is super visible actually. This the first time I really realized it, that you need to adjust the line basically all the time with when, uh, Donini, uh, we were on some, I think it was European Up to Now or World Up to Now, I'm not sure what it was, and we were like three of us going back from Dachstein and then finally Bischling, and then we needed to cross back to just go to, um, to Up to Now.
And on that line, the air was kind of not really working much, but when one guy just got a bit of lift, Donini really like changed almost 90 degrees to get on his line. So I'm thinking, why is this guy? What did he do? This, I mean, and then I really start to do this, I really start to try to adjust the line all the time. And also the exits of the thermals, it's like super funny. I mean, if you were thermaling, thermaling, and then it just goes straight out, and the other guy makes a small, like, not even a detour, it's just small other direction. I mean, uh, how to say it in English?
Just adjust the line, and he will go in the lift. Like, for the next, let's say, less than a minute, he will gain 200 meters against you, and then just adjust the line again. Like, was the the main line, well...
Then you have that other person that has shown you where the where the air is you're higher, I mean a little bit behind, but that's a perfect place. This is
like competition tactics, but it helps you also to think about how you're exiting thermals or how you're adjusting the lines on the cross country and, uh, yeah, it's so small detours or small adjustments can really mean a lot on the line. How, how
Do you approach the like, "Let's just take the flight we did in anthels the other day"? How do you approach when to climb versus just pressing and pressing and pressing?
as the day, as the day starts middle late late late
So yeah, like the first, breaking it up into, uh, immediate problems, what I need to do and
What I see how to do it first, just to imagine it, how you will do it, and then what would be the the what would be the extra? So, if this doesn't work, what will be the next one? Uh, what will be the next move? So, it's if it's tricky, just be more conservative. Let's say this is like the most easy rule of time. If it's tricky, you are getting low; the more conservative you need to be. If you're getting low, the more happier with anything you get, the more high you are, the least happy you should be. The more you should try to get some good insight into the scenario from the start of this video, so better. So, at the beginning of the day, yeah, you go, you try to go high. If it doesn't go, you scratch everything, and then in ant holes, it's kind of really obvious when at one moment it really starts to work and on a good day, and then you can fly super fast at
That time, yeah, you should—you should kind of be optimistic in a way, thinking, or optimistic that, or not? I mean, you shouldn't be worrying about bombing out. I mean, I think this is the most challenging for when you are not knowing, or somehow you are, yeah.
newer pilot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're—when it's on, you're not gonna bomb out. Yeah, yeah, exactly pushing, yeah, exactly.
And, uh, let's say on the McCready scale with the paragliding, we are as soon as it gets stronger than three meters, you can basically push as much as you dare. But still, let's say I think that idea is to have better glide. So, on on the cross country, you don't need to go full bar, or if there is, I mean, even on comps, I think full bar is a bit, uh, going down in a way that you want to have really good, good glides, so
Yeah, let's let's talk about bar on a good day. 10-hour day, you're flying a big triangle. What what's the percentage on bar on your glides? You know, what are you mostly at? And then give me percentages of how often you're on full bar, three-quarters, half.
So the the my idea is, let's say, oh, and then
You should tell everybody what you're flying too, you yeah.
Uh, it's the same. So I find we were wondering this with our own when we were flying in Brazil. So, how do we fly this? Is just with the wind? Do we fly? It's the same as at home in the mountains, or do we fly like less? Finally, we are flying exactly the same. Uh, you want to reach the next thermal, you are super high, you see the thermal, you see the huge cloud. Yeah, full bar.
And I kind of split my full bar, my bar, in like three, three, four points. So, no bar, climbing a little bit, always a little bit of bar on the glide when I want best glide, at least a bit of bar. And this can go to half, and then from half on starts to go, what I need? Speed. More, I don't need the glide, I need speed. So, until half, I would say always a bit on the glide, and from this, let's say, one quarter to half, or a bit over, I would say I need glide. Or until half, I would say I need glide. Over the half, I would say I need speed.
And because I know it's good, I just want to get there faster. And if you have like obvious, it's either the reach, or it's either a guy in front of you having a thermal, then it's full bar because you just need speed. You just need to get there. You can see it. Yeah, you're
flying the Enzo, I'm
flying the Enzo, yeah, no, um
I believe you and I were down in the sertão at the same time, because you were flying patu quite a bit and getting some big flights the last time. So that year, I believe you were mostly foot launching; I don't think you were part of that toe team, no.
No, we are talking. Oh, okay, okay, okay.
So maybe I have that wrong. Uh, were you flying Patu? We were crossing it a couple of times. Yeah, so you were just doing the towing.
Yeah, we were just doing the towing. I find it super more easy, um, much easier, much easier in the patu. I think you're always a bit in the lee also, so you're... I don't want to get myself, I'm just there for flying and I don't want to get myself standing on the takeoff looking at the wind and I'm think, or it's just the best for me to go on the, on the airfield. It's almost no wind. The day is still not on, and then when it starts to, just a bit of wind, it means, okay, it started to work. So then you can already try and so it's super easy to take off, super safe, and you take off always and you start from really early.
I mean, this is... I was never there actually, in patoo and seara and these places to foot launch, so I don't know the place in this way, I just know it.
side, and I, I find it better I
Did, uh, I spent eight or nine days in Tasima where they where the guys got the record two years before when I was ourselves, they were down there two or three years ago. Yeah, and, uh, and, uh, Raphael and a couple of those guys and, uh, Samuel and Marcelo came for like three days. Yeah, you know, they, they sat there, I believe it was 39 days to get that record, and they flew three times. Yes, and it is brutal. It's so brutal. The first move is 40k over this plateau where you're barely got your, your base is right on the deck and it's really windy, so you got to get across this thing and then you start to get established as you start to get closer to Keiko. But I mean, you're starting almost on the coast, so yeah. And every night, oh, the weather looks good tomorrow, and then you go out and it's raining or it's too windy or whatever.
I mean, it was, it was a the most brutal patient game I've ever played. It was like, I gotta get out of here because you're, if it doesn't work, you're home by 7:00 a.m. Yeah, yeah. And there's nothing to do, you're just twiddling your thumbs all day. But, uh, what
Talk about flying in the Sirtau, I loved it. Uh, I knew it was good. I mean, before, my friends were going to Seara in these places and somehow I was not really convinced and interested. But then, at one moment, when Michael Ziegel started to do his uh Breakfast 500 case, yeah, I said, "This is a classic route now, so I need to do the classic route. I need to do 500k, 500 at least." And it was funny. I mean, we were on World Cup in Bulgaria, we wanted to organize ourselves, our own winching, our own team, everything. And then everything fell apart and I'm thinking, "Okay, when will I do this?" And then Aaron calls me. I'm driving home and I'm thinking, "This, when I will do this, Brazil, I want to do Brazil." Next day, Aaron calls me, he says, "Uh, there's another place, do you want to go?" "Yes." And that's how we went.
Uh, it was super fun.
It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun.
For me, um, I really like to fly, um, with Aaron. It's, uh, we have really cool way of, of do a pair flying. When we were crossing Bulgarian mountains on hike and fly, we established couple of rules how to really, how it really works that you can fly together really well and, uh, yeah, we use this. You can use this on cross country and, um, so when we were flying bivak over the Bulgarian mountains, the first day we were, we took off. I mean, the first day that was flyable, we took off and we were going really slow.
We were just watching ourselves, how, who will do the move, whatever, and then we When walking to for the next day, we were... we established like couple of rules. One rule is the lower one always leads the lower one always needs to do a decision because the higher one can go wherever he wants, and the lower one is actually the one who who needs to do that decision. So this is like the first rule. The second rule is that when when the lower one makes a decision, the higher one can always do the same because he's higher, so he's going at the same moment because when you reach the next thermal, when the lower one will meet region external, the higher one will be there too.
and fly faster in the thermal, and that we had there anyway. The first rule from the first day, if one bomb goes out, the the other bombs out because we are hiking, and so we established the third rule, uh, that if somebody gets away in the thermal, he goes down to join and you go up again together. So we use these three things and we can fly super fast is
That, uh, did you guys talk to Rafael and those guys? Because I mean, in my mind, the Brazilians have nailed this team flying thing. I mean, they are clearly making this work. Uh, is that—is that basically what they're doing as well? I
have no idea. This is based on, I think, so and maybe
Done. Is that they talked about that in Chelan two years ago at the Nationals? Uh, we had a canceled day and I was behind those guys. I was waiting for some other guys to launch, so I never caught up with them. But I, I remember something along those lines, you know, basically the lowest person leads, okay? The, uh, the highest person, if the lowest person bombs out, you dial down, come up together. Yeah, I think I
mean, this is based—our idea is based just purely on hike and fly, uh, so okay, yeah, how
Were you guys approaching it in, in Brazil, because you've got, you're towing, you're separated, no?
You, it's quite good organization. It's super good organization, actually, the best I've seen ever. And, uh, you throw side by side? Oh, yeah, okay. So you go side by side, up you release, and then you start—you, you and Aaron would just fly as a team. Yeah, exactly. Oh, cool. How
the other the day after Antholtz, uh, I didn't go with you guys. You went and flew Mayrhofen and did a nice triangle there. I watched the avery replay that Alex put up. After that, you and Alex were like together, I mean really together for 200 and something k. I mean, the whole flight, you were just totally together. Are you communicating with you on the radio? No.
No, no, with the same rules, basically we're kind of spreading this, yeah? So, yeah, um, yeah, we—if you have these rules, you don't need the radio. We were flying the Balkan mountains without the radius; we didn't have any radios. And here, it's cool because sometimes you need to have—it's cool to have a radio because you can discuss a decision, um, and with, yeah, with Lex, we are, I think, we're flying similar, like, uh, the same prince, the same principles, same speed, yeah, yeah.
Well, that's—that's terrific. Okay, so are there any other—if we missed anything there? Because I think team flying is really important. Are there any other kind of principles or things you talk about? Do you guys, after the flight, do you discuss it? Do you, before the flight, do you discuss what? Take me through—take me through the day. You know, like you see a big day coming, take me through even before the day. How are you identifying it? Weather? What are you using for resources? What are you guys talking about pre-flight? And then, how are you analyzing it afterwards? Yeah.
I think now we don't talk so much anymore. I mean, it's just the question: is it good? And where is it good? Uh, where is the best place? So, I am, let's say, I was watching always one thing for Slovenia. Uh, we have, uh, Aladdin, some service that you can see the weather, the problem with. And Austrians have another one that's also great, and Swiss guys have another one that's not also great. Everyone has its own, but just for their own country. So, I, I didn't have a really good source of, um, weather info for whatever. And now I'm really trying to learn Sky Site.
It's a gliders, uh, yeah, that's great. Yeah, is that a lot in the exhaust? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it a lot. And it's, uh, first discovering the whole world. So now I have like two things to watch, and I say, okay, one is for at home that I really trust and know what he's saying to me, and another one I'm still learning what he's trying to say to me. What will literally then happen in reality, um? So, I'm using this and for a good day, basically I watch, uh No thunderstorms, no cover, not much cover, uh, low winds, and uh, and good thermal. So these three things, yeah, how high the thermal will go, if it will be, let's say, more than three forecast, uh, three meters per second, let's say, and low winds.
It means low winds means normally less trouble. Less trouble means longer distance, um, yeah, like this. So for you identifying good day, I think good thermals in the Alps, you could say, okay, up to until four thousand meters, um, let's say two, three, three meters thermals, and um, low wind. Everything else will be problematic day. Some, some stuff will be tricky. So it means it's good, it's okay for flying. It's good for flying, but you will not be able to do whatever you, what, what's your plan? Maybe do
You have anything you do pre-flight or pre that day, uh, mentally to prepare, or anything you're kind of thinking about the night before, like, "Hey, I've got a big day coming up, I want to"
I, I just, whatever I do, I have like a list of system, so I don't have really a list, but uh, I think if you don't have a system, you should have at least a list so that everything is really in order. So I think that's it for me, and then I'm going to go to the next one, and I'll see you in the next video. Order that everything, all the equipment is set, that you have everything. This is the most important; it doesn't just come together by itself, so you should, I think, really prepare always to, to have a system how everything needs to be so it's perfect. It's perfect that you don't miss anything when, because all the small, this, this maybe seems like small details, but finally, uh, if something is bothering you, I mean, you cannot go with an empty phone on this kind of flight.
It's a bit, uh, a challenge in your mind, the whole flight probably, then. So, um, something like this, um...
Let's talk about your job. You work for Naviter, you do their programming, yeah? Uh, is it a scary time in that space because of what's going on with phones, I...
Uh, yeah, I think, how I start to look at it, so Naviter have, anyway, a couple of products. Uh, one is CU and CU Cloud, and another is are the instruments. Um, how I see in general, the the the phones and the dedicated devices, not just saying for Naviter now, but let's say when I got, I had a, let's say, a PC at home, and then Mac, start Apple start to go to Intel, so you could even install Mac on your normal PC. So I did this, and it was working like crap. It was really not working.
You need to adjust the mouse, you need to adjust the keypads, whatever. I mean, it's a lot of work, and it's just not working as it's normally working on their own hardware, even though it could be lower, lower hardware than your PC. So, and I had similar experience with Navitel made cu mobile 20 years ago, and at that time I had it. I had big battery in my cockpit and this, uh, pocket PC with the cu mobile on it, and finally it's a lot of cables and a lot of stuff and it's just not working. So I'm thinking this way, I'm not—I'm not a thinkerion in this world and selectively, but I'm still think having like a lot of, I mean, from this perspective, because when I'm doing certain thing that I really want to excel with it, I want the best tool for the job.
You cannot go with the ENB on the World Championship. You need the best glider. You cannot use your phone with a shitty pressure sensor for your climbing on the World Championship. Just one dedicated device that just works, that you don't need to think about it. You need to think about other things. Like similar when you go to cross country in Kaiko, I mean, what is good thing about that you just need to think about flying. You don't need to think about anything else. They will take care of it. So in a way, in this way, I'm thinking for sure phones are competitors for sure.
I mean, there might be some things that will happen also on this side that Navit will do this. But dedicated device, I think, or dedicated something that for the guys that just want to fly, I think you need a finished thing, finished product that you don't need to think about it because you have other things you need to think about. For sure, for tinkerers, you want different stuff to connect together and play with that stuff. That's another story.
If you could rewind the clock to your 50-hour self. So back when you're 19, 20, somewhere in there, and you could offer that Primož advice from what you know now, what would it be? I
think many. Just I don't know from the top of my head.
Yeah, no, I don't have regrets, I must say.
I don't know. You had any accidents? I had one, actually. I was learning to fly hang glider, but I had a paraglider accident the same day then after in the evening. It was, I went with the Acro glider on the end of the day on my hill behind the takeoff.
And it's a cliff, it's a short takeoff, a cliff, a bit backwind. And I had a glider above me in the edge of the cliff. And I jumped. Either way. So I jumped. So I didn't have much energy. And I dived. And then when I dived, I was too low to exit the takeoff. So I crashed into the tree. And I broke a rib. Yeah. That's not too bad. No, it's not too bad.
It's still annoying. But yeah. It's annoying because you can't laugh for a month. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
What about in our world? We had... We see a lot of stuff we'd rather not see. What advice would you give to most 50-hour pilots? People that are... Well, not most. All 50-hour pilots. People that are listening that are just getting into this sport or getting really excited about it. Be it hang gliding, paragliding, sailplanes, whatever.
Yeah. I think one thing is to really balance or judge, let's say, the day. What do I have to lose? What do I have to gain? So if it's just a flying and it looks dangerous, you're thinking it's dangerous, then this is maybe already like a warning. And then you just say, okay, you have a warning and then you just balance. So will this be just a flight down? Then it's really a warning and no reward. So why do it then? Just go down. I mean... Uh-huh. The mountain will stay tomorrow there and you can do the flight tomorrow easy. So this would be one thing to balance, let's say, in the way, what
am I risking? What am I trying to do? What are my rewards with this? And another thing in the air, I think it's always to have like second plan. If this doesn't work, what will you do next? And often I think flying on the safe side, it's actually kind of also the good line. So it's not losing that much if you're doing it a bit safer.
I have rejiggered my thoughts about that exact thing recently. I was training down in Santa Barbara this March for the X-OPS. I was down there for a month and the ocean's right there and there's these beautiful mountains. But because it's maritime, it often can be kind of stable. And the local pilots would really... But it's also, these mountains get a lot of heat and they can be pretty spicy. And there's kind of a front line and then there's the back line on the big peaks. And day after day, the local pilots were really, you're basically scratching for a long ways.
In a sense, you're scratching. You've got 4,000 feet, you can go fly out, but they're catching stuff right at the trigger point. And I just kept flying out front because the speed was the same, but I had 1,000 feet to work with. Exactly. I didn't really... I used to would have always been back there, but I didn't really, I couldn't understand. There wasn't a reason to do it.
Relative altitude is the key. I mean, if you often you go somewhere, let's say deeper in the mountain, it often means you have less relative altitude. Because the thermals are really often outside. So this is the one reason. Yeah.
Yeah. I have learned that you don't... I think often this line is a classic example, I've only done it once now, but when you start getting into Italy and you go past whatever the town is, you're flying through some zones that are pretty treed. There's not a lot of landings out there, so you really do have to fly quite deep and it has to be quite committed. Yeah. So I have learned that, especially as the day starts to get better, you can take a lot of lines that are way less risk.
Exactly. I mean, here it depends a bit like this. So if it's no wind, so it's hard to stay up then, yeah, and the day is working. So it's always a lot of ifs, I don't know. So if it's early, it's working, but it's weak, so you cannot be really stuck on the reach. So probably it's outside better. If it's middle of the day, a lot of wind, yeah, and you just need to cross this reach. So probably somewhere similar, like if you would take a wave, so this is the mountain and then you have the wave. If you will be on the top of the wave, behind the mountain, you're not really riding the wave. If you are more in front of it, you're riding the wave, so you're going like that. So this would be, let's say, one explanation.
Identifying where the wave is. Yeah. Yeah.
23 years, you're doing these huge triangles, you're going to Brazil, you're getting these big distances. What do you see? What's your goals? What are your goals now? Where do you see, what do you want to be doing in five years?
With paragliding, I have now just short goal is we are going with Aaron again to Brazil. So we want to fly big distance.
I'm not stressing about it too much. Um, so I'm not really, if, if we don't fly really far, I don't, I'm not, I'm not really, I don't have a problem with it, but I think we can, we can do five if we are lucky, maybe we can do 600.
Um, and so this is like short term and long term. I want to, I mean, I want to fly all the classics in the Alps. Oh, this is my cross country thing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to do all the classics about it. So I'm training a bit of acro and hike and fly. So basically what I did, what I changed, I stopped searching for other sports. I did at one moment, I was really searching for other sports. I tried sailing. I tried kayaking. I tried whatever, I mean a lot of stuff, but then finally now I think, okay, paragliding is my thing. I was even flying cellplanes, uh, but yeah, paragliding is my thing. So now I want to really. Just. this space more so last question
About comps, I've been wondering, you know, with the ex-alps, I've done the ex-alps now three times and, you know, really with my age and stuff, I probably shouldn't keep doing that. I love comps and I really like the idea of really working at them and making some goals there and doing a lot more comps, doing a lot more World Cups, but I worry about the, in a sense, you know, when you get done with the ex-alps, it's kind of the same thing. It's like, well, that, you know, I worry about the fulfillment part of it is, you know, am I kind of chasing the rabbit down the hole there where it's kind of like, you know, is there, is there enough fulfillment from even winning a World Cup?
Is that something that's really, you know, because in the end, in the big scheme of life and the big scheme of the world, who gives a shit exactly?
the guy on another planet doesn't care, yeah.
Really, I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to find five people in the sport who remember who won the Superfinal five years ago. It's just not, yeah, it's not really that. Which one?
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I, I think that with, with the comps is good to, like, let's say, ex-alps is a completely different thing and when, and it's possible to do coverage all every day. Interesting, because whatever you do, whatever, whatever is happening, whatever the weather is, it's always something happening on the comps. Often, it's a lot of waiting and nothing much is happening. So, I think for us, it's more interesting to have on a comps that you know that will be reliable weather, so you can fly there and, and yeah, it's good to, to have other objective also, like, I mean, you need to, if
You know, already, the people there, then it's cool to to fly with this thing. Yeah, I think it's very interesting to have these people, and it's a good escape, I think, from the from the working everyday job or something.
Yeah, it's a nice week, isn't it? The
thing is always fun. What I like it is that you don't need really good weather. It's for me, cross country and concert. Like, cross country is more like alpinism, maybe like you couldn't compare it, but let's say just this direction. And comps is more like wall climbing, like artificial wall, so it's more technical. You're flying with friends, comparing, and the weather doesn't matter. It's the same for everyone. So on the comps, I don't check the weather. Um, yeah, so I like to compare and to compete with the with the friends. So, yeah, it's cool.
Pretty much, thanks. I really appreciate it. That was super fun; it's always a treat to be able to do these live. I hope we get to fly more, uh, soon, to join you guys in Brazil, actually. That's a—that'd be a—that'd be a fun trip as well. I've been looking at the towing down there and very jealous of that. We just get a lot more hours. Cool.
yeah exactly
But, uh, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Thank you. Cool, if
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