Hi there everybody, welcome to a very special episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. I'm recording this about three weeks post-race. I'm sitting in a hotel beneath Antholds in Italy. Had a great day of flying yesterday with a couple of upcoming guests, Alex Roby and Primo Sousa. Aaron Durogati was also in the sky and also a whole bunch of other really, really good pilots. Finally got a shot at that beautiful triangle here that they do down into the Dolomites, which has been on my hit list for many, many years. But this episode is, I went to a whole bunch of the athletes, so this is just a few of them, and asked pretty much the same questions. Best day, worst day, advice for people thinking about doing the X-Alps. Biggest mistake, will you do it again? I changed it up a little bit.
What we hear from Maxime and Chrigel and Paul Guschlbauer and a whole bunch of the athletes. This one is Nick Neynens, King of Master Alerts, Aaron Durogati and Gaspard Pettio. A bunch of the, you know, they are all big fan favorites. Thought we'd kick it off with them. We've got about seven, at least, hours of content. We've
got about 10 minutes of content
here with all the interviews. Today's is about 90 minutes. We're going to put this one out and listen to the feedback and decide if we should put the other, break the other ones up in at least two more episodes. But, you know, I'm obviously way into the Red Bull X-Alps, and I know many of you are, but many of you probably aren't, and this will be redundant in some ways. So we'll either put the other ones out as like bonus content or as regular shows, depending on what we hear. So, but for now, I think you'll really enjoy this. Get these folks perspective on what is most definitely the greatest game on earth. This year was, was physically unbelievable with that stability at the end with the last three days. And in the middle days, we had all those thunderstorms and never really heard a beep out of our various, but an exciting race, very cool course.
Although you're here, you'll hear some thoughts about how it wasn't with so many more waypoints. It didn't allow us a lot of freedom to, to make big moves. We basically followed each other around because there wasn't enough distance between the waypoints to, you know, get very creative with our, with our route. So we've given that feedback to Red Bull. Hopefully that will change. We'll actually do zoom. Hopefully that'll change in the future, but yeah, it was a, it was an Epic race as it always is. Tons of fun, little bit of heaven, a little bit of hell and everything in between, as I've said. So I hope you enjoy this show. Let us know what you think. Ping me afterwards. After you listened and, and let me know how, what you think we should do with the rest of the content. We've got a whole bunch more, like I said, at least seven hours of content here with a lot of the different athletes.
So, and I know you want to hear from, from Chrigel and some of the others, so we will release it. Just not sure how we're going to do it, but for now, enjoy the show and give you a little relive of the Red Bull X house.
Okay.
Now everybody's fan favorite, Nick Manans, the guy who claims he doesn't train and does it in jandals. Everybody loves Nick, me included. We've had him on the show before, of course. And Nick is just awesome. He had a really slow start in this one, had a, had a, had a rough first day. And, but we, I kept saying to my team, like, we, you can't count Nick out. You can't count Nick out. He's going to, he's
going to
make magic moves. He always does. And he did, he fought from the back and had some good days there and kept moving up and kept moving up and kept moving up. Ended up in 15th place. I did really well. He does it. You know, most of us have these big RVs and creature comforts and he does it in like a little Subaru with his mom and his brother in tent. So hats off to Nick. Incredible to watch, super fun to watch and does a great job with social media. So I'm sure you all saw a bunch of his posts and stuff, but here's Nick Nannens.
Nick, so cool to talk to you, man. I appreciate you taking some time out on one of your, your transfers here. I understand you're in Bangkok with mom and, but it's been, I think three days now. I'm sure you're like me. You're still pretty tired and recovering, but congratulations on yet another epic race. You and I got started in all this madness the same year in 2015. So this was your, your third one. And you were, you were, as I knew you would, you had a slow start this one and I knew you'd make some terrific moves, which you did. So, but congratulations on another race. Thanks a lot, Gavin. And same to you too. It was good racing with you. Next time I'll try to race a little bit closer, I suppose. And yeah, it's, that's probably the main thing after the race is just catching up on the sleep.
Like I didn't feel super tired during the race,
but afterwards, as soon as it's over, you realize that, you do need to catch up on sleep a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're gunning it hard for, for 12 days. I, I met at one point, I remember cause you've done the XPEAR. I haven't, but I remember at one point I was thinking it was like day seven or something or day eight. It was like, oh man, we, we still have the distance left of the entire XPEAR. I was like, oh man, this is, this is a big slog. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's what I like about X-Elps cause XPEAR was fantastic adventure as well. But, but like, especially if you're coming from Australia or New Zealand, you're coming so far to, to have the whole race. Like once they did XPEAR basically in three days, it's like,
yeah, X-Elps at least you, you can get your teeth stuck in and, and really, yeah, have, have a good, good slog. Besides all the briefings and transfers and yeah, airplanes and all that kind of stuff. Sure. Actually get some time. Sure. Sure. On the ground stuff. So, Nick, I'm going to ask you the same questions I'm asking everybody else. I'm not sure this first one is all that relevant because you have done it twice before, but is there anything you underestimated about this race in retrospect? Well, I guess it's basically what happened. This race is a slip behind at the start. I made a few mistakes that just sort of got me off the pace a little bit and then really sunk the boat at Kronplatz where there was like, afternoon storms and everyone else had a really long flight towards Zugspitze and I just got way behind because of those storms.
And the next day it took ages to get going again as well. So it's getting a bit harder to catch up again these days. Everyone's, the quality, the standard is pretty high. So if you make mistakes, they get punished pretty, pretty hard. What was your biggest mistake? Yeah. So, well, on the first day I bombed out, but that didn't affect things. Greatly. I don't think because it was really cloudy and most people had to land a bit further anyway, but it just meant I walked quite a bit. Um, and I still was a little behind. So I just lost maybe because I maybe lost a couple of hours. So the next day I was under pressure and then I lost a couple more hours scratching away somewhere. Uh, but then I was lucky with a low save, but really what I should have done better is, uh, flying all the way to a shell turn point.
I kind of, I didn't top up with height and I should have, uh, basically I landed short of person and I had to, yeah, if, if I, the leaders tagged a shell that night and then flew with the value ends. And that's what I wanted to do. Like did they did the easy part of the flight where you had the belly winds behind you and you just racked up some easy case mountains. And because of that, I was just, you know, several hours behind the pace. And, and that meant that the, the window closed with the storms on crumb plots. And, and I couldn't get through crumb plots basically. So that the, the biggest, um, setback was not getting through crumb plots. And that's because I made a few mistakes that just put me a little bit off the pace. And maybe if I'd been one hour earlier to crumb plots, I would have got through before the rain, you know, and it would have been fine.
That was a critical day because it was really good getting to crumb plots, uh, for, you know, the top kind of 15 and, and, uh, and escaping there, leaving. There was, was, it was starting to get pretty scary. The skies were getting big and, you know, those that were about an hour or so behind me really got hammered and they were, uh, and they got pinned on that side. And that was, that was a, that was a big difference in the ball game because it was, it was quite good still on the north. So yeah, it was, that was, that was one of those areas where the speed thing was really critical. And then, yeah. And, and it's one of those things where, because I, because I was a little bit behind, I was trying to sort of,
uh, cut a few corners and fly fast and catch up. And because of that, I took a few risks that basically put me even further behind. Right. Right. Um, best day and worst day. Um,
well, yeah, I'm not sure. I guess the first day was, uh, one of the worst days, because I only flew, like, I didn't fly long enough on that first flight from the guys Berg, and it was a relatively short day. So not that much happened, but it was still nice. I had a few glides and I don't know, um, maybe the best day in terms of tactics for me was the last full day, because I started at Mongeau league, close to Mont Blanc. That's the day that everyone top landed on Mont Blanc. And I managed to stay in the high mountains a couple of times, I had to land and walk over the past to the other side, but it was a lot better than the guys who were struggling out,
um, on, on the chartreuse and the, um, and the bowl ship further out to the small hills to the west, who ended up having to walk a lot. And that was sweltering heat that day. So that was my best day tactically in terms of gained a few places. But I think most of the race, I was slowly clawing back, uh, places. Uh, and most of the race, I felt pretty good about the whole thing. It was just that I sort of mucked it up at the start as, as I did in 2015. Yeah. You had a rough, rough start in 2015 and you came roaring back the same. I, we, we certainly did not write you off Nick in the beginning. I was like, gee, we, we know Nick, he he'll be back right back here in the end, which you were so,
uh, nicely done. Yeah. Um, you, you know, it, it, it even said this, I think on your, your bio and that, you know, that kind of map of all the athletes that we get, but you, you know, you, you famously quote unquote, you know, don't really train for the race, which you talked about in the last podcast that we did. But, uh, if you could, if you could rewind the clock, uh, in no, knowing what you know now about the race that just happened, is there anything you would do differently in any preparation or, or strategy or stuff with your team or anything that would be, that you would change? Yeah, I think if I had, you know, if we had better weather in the pre-week, it would have been fine. I just would have got all the gear sorted and,
but yeah, my very first flight on that harness was during the prologue and, uh, yeah, that day before I flew for a couple of hours, but still sort of adjusting things and sorting things out. So I was thinking maybe it would be cool to do a little bulb. Maybe, uh, before the event starts and just get everything sorted. So I'm sort of hitting the ground running because basically every day, uh, through the event, I felt better. And it was just the first few days, a few hiccups on the first few days that let me down. And other than that, I thought I was pretty efficient and productive. And, and I, maybe it was just because the people I was around, uh, weren't as fast as the lead pack, but it felt like I was,
you know, getting the most out of the day, generally speaking. Hmm. You kind of already answered this at the very beginning, but it sounds like you will do this again. Will you do it again?
Yeah. I mean, is I like it. And if, if, um, if I get the chance to do it again, I'd be pretty keen. It just depends on what, what else is going on in my life. I suppose. Hmm. What advice do you have to someone who hasn't done the exercise? Uh, who is watching this race is millions of people were, uh, they get inspired and, you know, like the idea of it. What, what advice would you give to somebody who hasn't done it? That wants to, well, you're saying, uh, don't train, but I do a lot of, which I think is really good training. And like the last thing, well, Volvix prepares you for the lot of like a huge part of the experiences that you have.
Yeah. Face and Excels. Probably the thing, it doesn't prepare for that. I was lacking is just the competition flying aspect where you have to, you know, big, keep up on those classic good days as well. Hmm. Yeah. Um, I think fitness for me, wasn't really a problem, but you need to be able to make sure that you can get yourself to take off, you know, several times, each day. so there's lots of other hiker fly events that I would definitely want to try before signing up for the Excel. People get, you know, glossy, um, eyes when they think of the Excel and they just want to sign up and do it, but you're better off making sure that you're ready with all those, uh, smaller races first.
That's the way I did it. I did expert and expir and, uh, that was on top of all my bulb is years of bulb of experience. Sure. Yeah. So the new at Excel, especially now that the pace is so fast that if you have a crack, you might not get another chance at it. So you want to have a pretty good crack. So like it's, it's one of those things where people want to do it one day and they probably just take any chance they can get. But, you know, I guess sometimes you might only have that option because later you're going to have kids and family and you're not going to have time or the, the circumstances aren't going to line up. But yeah, you don't really want to have a go before you ready and then do poorly and then try it again in two years later.
And maybe there's just too many other people that are on the waiting list. It's ready to go, I guess. So yeah, just lots of high compliance stuff before you sign up for Excel. Yeah, that's good advice. I can offer some insight there too, is I spent some time with folks that are not like on the committee or in the race committee. I mean, not Kristoff, but that kind of know how the whole selection process works, which I still don't really know, but they did offer some, some advice or, well, they, they basically told me that you're absolutely right. If you do it, you know, I think a lot of people, you know, sign up, you're not really expecting to get in and, but just, they want to go through the process and they sign up, but then they do get in.
And if you're not prepared very well and you don't do very well, you will most likely get skipped the next time, you know, if you get eliminated or you don't do very well, or you make a decision that they see as kind of dangerous, then your chances of getting selected are, are, are pretty low. You know, they're, they're definitely looking for people that can, can threaten the Eagle, which I don't believe many people can do, but as we just saw, but there's just so many good people from, for them to choose from that it's hard for them to justify giving you another go when there's so many other people that, you know, are qualified as well. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you're going to enjoy it a lot more if you have a good crack at it.
Like, you know, I say I do it for fun, but it's definitely more fun if you're doing well. So yeah, absolutely. Totally. What's the most critical or vital support you got from your team?
Oh, they were so on the ball this time. I mean, they were on the ball last time as well, but the first couple of days, I mean, they were asking me before the event saying, Oh, what should we do? What should we do? Like I say, Oh, don't worry, we'll figure it out and I'll, I'll tell you everything you need to know. But then we just sort of fell into place and it went fine. So I said this time when I say I don't need a battery pack, uh, ask me again at least four times. And there was one time during the race where I said, okay, mom, I need these batteries. but yeah like so that was really good like i was always topped up with power and they're always really uh fast and efficient finding me and and um i probably got more assistance this race than i did um the last race partly because there was a lot of turn points and there was a lot of stop start because of that um but yeah the support was really good um i also had a team on whatsapp uh you know a couple of different time zones that i would just ask for information um every now and then like sometimes it's good to know what the other pilots are doing especially on those hot stable days to see if anyone's managing to stay up and people have decided to take off and and uh
yeah how high people are starting and stuff like that so uh it's really hard to get that information because a lot of the time the reception on on uh was hopeless um so if you can just get someone to send you a screenshot it really helps and um just give you a little bit of commentary on what's going on that was um good as well and you and i talked about this a little bit yeah totally um you and i talked about this a little bit before the race but uh the whole race i don't even look at the weather i never pull up you know windy i don't i don't do i mean that's totally in my team's hands um and you know i get like a weather briefing every day or i get
like a weather briefing every day or i get like a weather briefing every day or i get like a
when i'm in the air um but you you're a meteorologist and i'm assuming that your your brother and mom don't have you know nearly the weather knowledge that you do how do you guys handle that on your team are you doing it or are are you have you kind of taught them enough that they're passing it on to you or are you not even worrying about it you're just looking at the sky and figuring it out yeah a lot of the time i'm just looking at the sky i'm figuring it out i'm looking at windy a lot because it's got a lot of what you need sometimes i was asking the guys to send me uh you know the radar the latest radar which get on windy now um or what else was i asking for often i'll just look at the upper winds on the meteogram on windy and um i had some some because yeah i didn't really have time to look at all these different things but yeah someone on my whatsapp group would often be sending me uh like an enneagram like a sounding the forecasting which is basically all you need to know and you can get i was getting that myself off windy sometimes as well so that just shows you how much moisture there is and what stability there is and what kind of mixing like heights you can expect like thermal heights so i i didn't look into it in a lot of detail and i can get a lot more detail out of all the um different paragliding specific weather apps but i just didn't really have time for it and also i didn't really have time for it i don't think it made that much difference because you didn't really have that much route choice you just had to do the best you could anyway and yeah for example when i went up titlis just looking around you could see all the the valley haze and it just sort of looked stable and then when i took off it felt stable and then uh scratching on these huge big bluffs facing the sun later and i couldn't get up so it's like yep it is stable so you can kind of figure it out anyway but i guess where the makes um a difference is if it changes your decision making so i was actually really lucky on one of those stormier days where it was raining fairly heavily in the morning so i slept in for a couple hours then i hiked up when it was basically stopped raining and flew just before it started raining and then um i got up to that pass just before davos and there was some really heavy rain when i was walking up to the pass but as i got to the pass it started to clear and it was perfect just to fly down and i um timed it perfectly that day but i think that came down a lot to luck we were looking at the radar as well oh there was another day where i just squeaked into subjubitsa just before the storm storms came so yeah that day we were looking at the radar and that was like a system that was moving through it wasn't storms that were developing locally so um yeah a bit of now casting checking out what's like i guess the one of the main things is whether you've got to decide whether you've got to walk up the hill and fly or just keep walking on the highway because there might be a storm that makes it impossible to fly and shuts the whole place down for hours and hours and you'd be wasting your time if you were sitting on the side of the hill so uh yeah i didn't get any weather holdups like that this time
and i was yeah yeah
i found i found that you know i was when they announced the course i was really excited about it and i think it was a great course it was an awesome route but i would totally agree with you that with the with the shorter with the more turn points and the shorter distances you know there was the big decision point leaving crone plats you could go east you could go west or you could go to brenner and walk you know there was you know you basically had those three options there and then leaving the zug spits you could go the northern route or the south southern route and other than that there really wasn't you just kind of had to put your head down and keep moving there wasn't there wasn't there wasn't there wasn't there wasn't there wasn't the flexibility in the route or the creativity that we've had in the last couple that i really enjoy i i hope they back that off in the future because it's it really was you know there there were a few little option changes going up the rhine in terms of what pet which pass you walked over whether it be the overalp or one of the earlier ones which most people did um you know there but there wasn't really like like flying wise uh you know i mean nobody really flew davos to to titlis except creagle but but you know there you know there you could go up the rhine or you could go the northern side but it really there wasn't that many options uh like there has been you know i like the big gaps where you can really see some creativity and what people do yeah totally i think for the fans that's one of the really exciting things too because you see people take different routes and you you try to figure out which one's better but there were some of the most exciting
things that i've seen in the last couple of years
exciting uh parts of the race for me were still route choice related so there was still some route choice even though they had so many turn points close together the worst turn points were uh i mean having auger and then titlis with the airspace directly in between them and no way around it that was i hope they don't do that again yeah yeah that was the closest standpoint to the race and they got airspace wedge right between them and it just depends if you're there in a weekday or before the race and then you're there and you're there and you're there and you're there or after hours whether you can get through or not yeah and that was that was really luck i mean god you know i was there on a sunday i didn't have to worry about it at all you know and and uh yeah yeah it was just terrific you know i got up there and i waded through a snowstorm and then i got a little window and got the fly i didn't have to worry about it but yeah that's i tried to do that when it was on in training it's basically impossible you know it's so yeah that was i hope they change that as well although i think their turn point part of it is just for a while so i'm not sure but well nick thank you very much man i'll let you get back to your uh
your sleep before your next flight and give your best to your your mom and and your brother it was great to see them again and uh congratulations on yet another epic race i felt like this year was was epic in every way we just we had a little bit of everything it was fantastic so much fun and uh it was good racing with you again man yeah you too gavin thanks for the interview and yeah might be time to hit out for some pad thai yeah there you go cool bud talk soon see you cloud base yeah you too cheers king of master alerts new zealand 2 uh another fan favorite uh one of the female athletes this year along with dominica unfortunately she was eliminated uh near the end and uh after a really epic battle with the korean and those two went all night and she talks about that and making a little mistake in the morning which cost her the elimination but uh
a great first effort from this rookie i'm sure we will see her again she has not been flying very long and uh share some really cool thoughts about the race in the future here's kinga kinga welcome to the mayhem uh really excited to have this conversation with you we didn't see much of each other in the race so uh you know i was watching on live tracking whenever i could in the mornings when i was walking and stuff and i watched your epic battle at the end and uh so i i can't wait to see
you there and uh i'm really excited to see you there and uh i'm really excited to see you there but
i'm sorry the axe man man got you there after a few days but i i know it was still an epic adventure and and no matter where we place in these things uh you know you're you're owed a huge amount of uh of congratulations i know it's an it's an awesome effort and uh so so yeah so first off just congratulations and in your uh Red Bull X-Alps campaign uh
thanks gavin that's it's awesome to to talk to you here and uh i'm really excited to be here and i'm really excited to be here and uh awesome it was awesome to to be in Red Bull X-Alps it was quite an adventure and uh yeah we didn't see each other much because you were just way too too ahead for me too much in front so you know but uh you know it was the first time i'm relatively inexperienced pilot so even being there and learning from uh from some of the best pilots in the world it was an amazing experience and seeing all the lines that other pilots choose and different conditions the decisions that others make it's it's such a steep learning curve it's amazing i i've learned in a week i learned probably more than i would learn in a year of of flying solo somewhere you know cruising through the through the mountains so yeah i'm i'm mine it completely blew my mind what you can do with the paraglider what personally even what not on the what better pilots can do but even with what i can do with paraglider how much capacity i have which i don't usually use and you need this particular surrounding and logistics and and support and safety net and on the pilots around that Red Bull X-Alps give you gives you to um yeah to just dig deep and and get access to to to 100 of your capacity so it was super inspiring experience yeah
there's uh my my buddy nate scales who who is really a mentor of mine and a guy i fly with at home and just an
amazing guy and he's been a great mentor to me and i've been a great friend of his for a long time there's only one way to get to that place and in the X-Alps you're going to get there guaranteed you know it's like it's that's hard to describe to people that that who haven't done it but you're going to get to a very special place in your in your mind and your body that you just you almost can't even train for but well let me let me run through let me run through these questions and uh you know you don't have to answer them quickly but i'm just kind of answer asking the same questions of every of everyone and and seeing where we go but um what was the number one thing you underestimated and when you when you look back at the race and your training and the preparation what what was the biggest thing that caught you off guard that you would have you know maybe done differently i would say that
first thing that comes to my mind that two things first thing that comes to my mind is um uh it's a team how important it is and uh because usually we just think about the um what what athletes do and what kind of decisions they make and then the team is there to you know to follow with the car to feed you and help you to make some some decisions potentially but there's so much more and dynamics of the team especially after a week into the race when everybody get tired you really see in this race what you are made of and it's not only about us athletes i this race really pulled out all the best and all the worst and all the worst and all the worst and all the worst and all the worst and all the worst and all the worst and all the worst and all the worst uh with who i am uh but also uh but also the whole team changes and dynamics changes and um and yes now i understand better what i should have what i shouldn't have maybe maybe which type of people is is
good for this adventure and which not necessarily because after a week under pressure and the when people get tired it can become a little bit um difficult so i didn't appreciate enough this part i kind of thought that as long as we are just you know a bunch of friends it will unroll itself and suddenly it didn't because i guess maybe i i didn't brief the team precisely enough maybe i thought that the dynamics will sort itself out but after a week of being tired and under pressure nothing sorts itself out anymore so i think it's a good thing that we're all in this together and i think it's a good thing that we're all in this together and i think it's a good thing that we're all in this together so maybe yes maybe the fact that i was inexperienced in such a long race and and with so much pressure and uh and the team that i have chosen and that i'm very grateful they decided to go through this adventure with me but all dynamics didn't go as well as i hoped for if it makes sense so this is definitely i didn't appreciate that it's such a such a team race such a team adventure we usually just think about the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the a few times how well sorted is everything around them so they can focus on what they should be focusing not in all the logistics the
real the real key for me is is uh that i don't have to think at all you know that the team does all of that i mean obviously when i'm in the air you know you're you're trying to kind of go on autopilot and just fly your glider and and make good moves and and that's certainly thinking but uh but yeah this it's really the support your support team in this race is just so critical i mean a lot of ways they're working harder than we are and so
i think now maybe it was a little bit of my own insecurity that i i maybe i thought about people who would be really suitable for my team but maybe i was too shy to ask just as well you know who i am to ask them if you know i'm just like you know i'm just just just a tourist and now i think it was completely silly because uh the better it's like you know like failing to prepare is preparing to fail basically and and it has it had a huge impact at the end of my overall performance obviously it's not i'm not i'm not saying at all that you know that i i don't know that my performance that's anything for the fault of my team i'm just saying that i myself might have prepared better around this kind of team logistics
and and uh and yeah now i now i know yeah
i mean there's a lot you don't know as a rookie team i mean in 2015 when i did it my first time it was there was pages of stuff at the end of the race i mean it was my best placing but it was still well
for your first performance yeah we did but it was flyable you know
yeah we did but you know it's it was uh it's yeah it's there's a lot you don't know go ahead yeah
second thing that i would say that that kind of maybe not maybe it didn't surprise me but it's something definitely to work on uh for me it's this kind of consistency that you need to have every single day in this race because you have a one day that you are out of focus something happens completely like you know that puts you out of focus and uh and then the the race is basically running away you know the older field is running away so um so uh it's relatively easy to keep this focus for a few days but here we are racing for 12 days and uh it's a long time i think i didn't appreciate how long this race really is you know because it's a bit different when you do races you know other races let's say that take up to six days and here after six days you're just you know halfway into the race and it's just kind of getting started you know so uh so i for sure i didn't appreciate the the i think it was like oh and it's still a little bit overwhelming it's a long race it's a bloody long journey and there's so many things things that will happen that at the end of it you feel like the beginning was a you know a month ago because so many things happen everything is so intense so yeah this intensity for many days in a row with the lack of sleep yeah i didn't appreciate how big it really is but i guess you can't really imagine it unless you do it because yeah well i can also i can
also tell you just from my you know this was my third campaign the pace you know got a lot faster in 2017 and then it just got a lot faster in 2019 like everybody's getting more pro more fit better in the air better organized better support crews it's you know it's gone from a proper adventure race back in 23 2003 where everybody's carrying pots and pans and you'd wait 10k for your buddy to catch up and you were just having one in the mountains to like a real you know you know tour de france type pace but with paragliders and so it's you know it's it's it's really hard i think for people to come into it now without a lot of experience and a lot of background because it's the pace is vicious i've never seen me it was so fast this time it was just mind-blowing i can't believe how some of these how fast these teams are moving so well hey next question which you maybe have already answered but what was your biggest mistake i
guess my biggest mistake was um on the maybe fourth day i had to say right now fourth or fifth day i i listened to the advice of a very good cross country pilot very experienced pilot who lived lives in the area where i was at this moment and i didn't really listen to my guts and and i was first i was thinking about it for too long just kind of wasn't able to make this decision and instead against like what i thought against um! against what this very experienced pilot who really should knows better in every sense so i finally listened to him and it was a disaster i ended up wasting the whole day running around in circles a lot of energy and i put a lot of energy into it and didn't make much progress and this was very interesting lesson for me just to to really start trusting myself more because you you try to always this is difficult difficult part of the journey and i think it's really important in this race that you you have your own feeling and your own you know look at the weather conditions and the topography and everything then you have some some some some uh some support that tells you to do something potential advises you the best they can and then there's uh there's the other athletes doing particular things that may think that maybe it's a good idea or maybe it's bad but just you have to center yourself in all this and for for me it was quite a tricky part and then once i made this mistake and actually made this wrong decision which completely screwed up the whole day which was actually quite a good day and i might have made quite a progress i dig myself in that and in it a little bit started stressing out and then you know it influenced the next next decisions and a couple of next days and this one begins
yeah exactly and this one was a was the biggest part of it because once you make a mistake okay it's done and you have to go back and do it again and then you have to go back and do it again and then you have to go back and do it again and then you have to go back and do it again and then you have to just cut it off and and think about the future and uh and this is also something that we i mean we learn with experience some people are born this way i'm rather born in a very like i have this very analytical approach that like to really learn from mistakes so but it also means analyzing these mistakes and it's like there's no time for it in this race so we have to just cut it off and and keep going and i i dig myself in this hole for too long and uh yeah so it was totally kind of rookie mistake but also i i guess you know this is something that you're learning with experience that's that's who to trust and basically trust yourself first of all there's a reason why you are participating not some you know other advisors you
you know what though i mean the other thing uh i mean i would i would like to say to you is that they you know the mistakes are so inevitable and they're and they're just part of the game and you know without them you can't learn anyway so it's you know your attitude's great yeah you just you you're you're gonna make mistakes that's inevitable and uh absolutely and the main thing is just to learn from it you know and so they're all i i found you know like in 2015 we made more mistakes than the other campaigns by far but i found that they were all acceptable mistakes you know they were all like yeah i mean how how could we have known and how would we know differently if we didn't do them you know so hey so let's keep things moving um just briefly best day and worst day and why uh
best day was probably the my last day um when uh when i i i was flying for upper upper in valley and uh and crossover to davos i was chasing uh the korean korean athlete and uh all the way basically all the all the all day long and it had a i finally after after you know digging myself a little bit into misery and stress i i um i came back to the light and and uh and um and it was i finally felt how it should feel i guess uh how this race can feel uh when you when you just just race and keep going on high pace and good energy and uh and have this this direct target of uh chasing someone in this case uh the the korean athlete it doesn't have to be necessarily about the ranking about winning about this or that it's just there's particular energy created around it that finally i felt like wow this is like how x-ops feels like it was so high paced and so so such good flying and good energy and i was so motivated and uh after the last after the last flight i was three kilometers behind the
korean korean athlete and uh and i started chasing him on foot and i felt like i can run forever you know and i was laughing before the race oh we don't usually run we just hike during the race and then off i went running you know 10 kilometers per hour for next three hours and and overtook him and felt like i was like oh my god i'm so motivated and i was so motivated and nothing is impossible so that was definitely definitely uh yeah the fight for definitely the very best this moment and i finally felt yeah this is how x-ops should feel like this is how it feels for for our top guns somewhere they're already in front but you know beautiful and and was your worst
day the getting cut or was it one of the other ones
yeah the worst day i mean getting cut uh it was obviously heartbreaking but i i it was very short you know it was just an hour in the morning and uh getting cut obviously was heartbreaking because i i just had it but i also felt like i did everything i i could have done and the rest was just you know my supporter was next to me with a phone uh staring in this phone life tracking etc so it couldn't it would never come to my mind that he would take me to the wrong ballet that would be the wrong ballet that would be the wrong ballet that would be the will get lost on the on the on the road so uh so i just had impression you know it was a mistake of course and i don't even think it's his fault because he during all the the days before he's been managing so much and trying to put all this team together it was so stressful for him that i can understand that he made this very simple and silly from outside mistake we all make mistakes so so i wouldn't even say that that was the worst because of course it was i mean with eliminated and it was heartbreaking but the same time i felt that you know i i got it i i did what i could here and again another lesson always double check and i always do double check after my supporter whoever i always i actually always choose my route myself it was the one single time when i didn't because he just okay i got it you just run i was like okay no problem i run this straight straight road we can't get lost here right so with it uh i say i would say that the the the worst the worst uh day was probably uh i don't know there was quite a few lows you know it's like so intense they're so highs are so highs and lows are so low but i guess uh i guess maybe this mentioned the day the day that i mentioned when yeah when i listen to the wrong advice and then i started like digging myself deeper and deeper into this rabbit hole instead of just uh yeah just like shaking it off and it's like hey okay let's let's let's act like nothing happened and i started getting a little bit stressed because i slipped in this ranking i was doing quite well until until this moment so and then it's just like everything got a little bit nervous and you know so yeah i'm probably a problem at this day but i would say that for me personally the the amount and quality of positive moments is completely like incomparable like there was a few few very low lows but at the end it was such amazing experience that you know even at the at the and um and the worst moments i was saying oh my god i would love to do it again you know it's i was i was completely like somewhere in the in the rain when i can't take hold because i completely screwed up before and i'm just completely like like freezing myself and and and completely miserable and it's just like yeah i would love to do it again because i'm learning so much and so awesome experience so that's
that's actually the next question and and i know that you know we've only had a few minutes but i'm sure you're going to be able to process this but it sounds like yes you will you will do it again or you'd love to do it again
oh if i have a chance to do it again absolutely and i want to do it again this is completely addictive and i i absolutely love the experience and i learned so much and also understood how much i can i can on some you know i've been playing on the five years and it's intense it's been intense but it's a really short time if you compare it to to to some some other athletes that you play with during the time you're playing and i'm sure you're going to be able to do it again this race and uh and uh to to to understand all these areas where i can progress and the ways i can progress and and get better as a pilot as an athlete as a person i mean it's it's mind-blowing i'm completely stoked with the whole event and of course i would love to do it again and i will be better prepared and you know and i think it will be even more fun because of it because i won't be
stressing stressing so much because i won't i will i will also be able to solve team um dynamics and logistics better and you know you learn so many things on the way and then you you have another two years to to to to to to to to use these lessons and progress my i guess in two years it will be even more fun yeah
so last question what was the best fan experience you had along the way or you know like uh just person on the side of the road or you know people come out there
was quite a few quite a few awesome awesome moments with people cheering me up i guess i guess the most beautiful was when i was um in the um this like
during this day when i was when i was chasing korean athlete in the evening when i was running after him he was like still a few kilometers ahead a couple of kilometers ahead and i was running he he he was hiking so i was closing this distance and and then some um some people who who saw it on life tracking just came drove in and joined me in running and i after a while i had a whole whole awesome team when running with me it's like a free free free guys you know running and cheering and protecting me from cars and like and it was it felt so magic because they just you know they just left their cars uh behind and just just went on running with me for kilometers and and yeah and there was so much energy in it i wasn't even working anymore on on you know my i wasn't even burning sugar or anything i was i was burning pure energy pure pure magic you know and yeah and then there was this moment when we were when we were when we were overtaking um korean korean athlete uh going up here and i was like oh my god i'm so and he was very tired.
He couldn't eat with the response of, he was just hiking. And he yelled, you're crazy. You're completely crazy. I was like, yeah, respect, awesome fight, awesome date. There was so much energy in it. And they fed on it and I fed on their energy. And yeah, pure magic happened there. So I think that was a beautiful, beautiful, yeah, beautiful fun experience. And finally, when we got to the place where we, and when we were about to spend the night, they just realized, oh, our car is like 20 kilometers behind. Wow, that's so cool. And like, awesome. So yeah, so one of my supporters just took them there. So it was like, yeah, it was very special, very special.
Yeah, and hats off to the Korean. We keep saying that because his name's so hard to pronounce, but God, he showed some tenacity. I mean, a couple of days before that, the pictures of his feet were just. They looked so bad and he just kept marching. I was, yeah, he showed some real grit there. Yeah, absolutely.
He's a warrior. He really is. I even thought at this point, I even said it while running, that he's such a warrior. I have huge respect to him and losing with him wouldn't be a defeat, but winning feels better. And at this point I thought, oh, of course, right now I'm winning with him because I'm already, you know, a kilometer ahead and I can't lose it. It's just. In the morning, I just can't let it slip from my hands.
Oh, wow. Sorry about that. It's a crushing, crushing way to get people.
Yeah, it's an awesome lesson. I'll just, you know, keep, keep, keep, stay focused and just don't trust too much to others, you know, make your own decisions, even if it's, if it feels simple and if it feels super straightforward, especially, I guess, from, from life tracking, what the hell are they doing? Because it's so obvious, but we're in the middle of it, like running on the road and five o 'clock in the morning, you know, everything can happen. So it's a good. Everything's foggy then. Yeah. So, so it's a good humbling lesson on like staying focused to the end and, and, and just keep pushing.
Yeah. Copy. Kenya, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. And best of luck to you. Yeah. Thank you. And best of luck. And I, I wish you great rest and recovery and hope to see you in 2021 for the next one, if not before, but thanks very much for your time.
Thank you. Thank you. Cheers.
One of my favorites had an incredible run in 2017 until he had a little crash and got pretty injured. Gaspard Petio, amazing pilot. Definitely one of the best pilots in the race. Yeah. Consistently. And he came back furiously this year and had a really good race. I was hanging on to him through day eight and he was one of the, one of the 10 who got to. Got to Monaco, had an incredible race. He talks about it being his best. We don't know if we'll see him again. He talks about that in this episode, but a great little chat here with a good friend of mine, an amazing pilot, amazing X-Ops pilot, Gaspard Petio. Yeah. So, uh, Gaspard, it's a real treat to talk to you, man.
It's just been a few days since the end of the race. Uh, thanks for, for coming on the mayhem. And I was, uh, terribly disappointed to lose you guys day eight. I was just behind you and Tom. And I think one other person, when you guys, uh, bumped into the road and I had a really bad day and that kind of first stable day and, and went nowhere. So, uh, sorry to, to lose you guys. That was a fun pack for quite a long time, but, uh, congratulations. On an Epic race, man. I know that was, uh, we had a little bit of everything in this one and also very physical for, for you and I, the older guys that have bad knees and stuff. Uh, but we got to walk a little bit together. I think that was day one or day two, but, but, uh, yeah, congratulations. Nice job. Thank you very much.
But you did an awesome job too. Yeah, no, it was a terrific race. Wasn't it? I really enjoyed this one. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. It was very Alpine and very. It was, I think it was, uh, the most beautiful one in a sense that we were always in the Alpine range, always, uh, uh, walking in the snow and, uh, with the glaciers and it was super nice. Yeah. Yeah. I wish they hadn't put the St. Hilaire turn point in, but that one was a bitch. Jeez. It was stable when we got down there, but you took a really deep line going in there. I think you were the only one in the air that, that evening I was watching as I was walking through Chamonix. And, uh, that was a, that was a good move. Well, actually I was, I was trying to, to find some, um, unstable air in the altitude.
But, uh, this day, I think anywhere you would go, it was a stable everywhere. So my, it didn't work the way I, I expected to work, but at least I didn't. And I mean, for me, there was no way I could walk on this concrete for all day, especially with this heat. So it was a way to avoid this. Yeah, no, that was, that was. That was smart. Have you ever seen, I haven't asked anybody else this yet, but have you ever seen stability like that? Cause I, you know, we just, that's not something we deal with at home at all. We never get stable days. You know, we get more stable than unstable that, you know, like it's all on a scale, but I've never seen anything like that. That was just unbelievable. Yeah, it was, it was, uh, pretty, pretty unbelievable. It happens sometimes, especially in St.
Hilaire, but usually we get a lot of stability down there. I mean, on the lower, uh, uh, uh, yeah, on the lower, lower bases. But then when you go up, I mean, up to 2,500 meters, normally you have some unstable instability. This was very special in a way that it was stable everywhere at every altitude. And I mean, even, even, even Chamonix was stable and this is very, very uncommon. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was crazy. It was like flying in soup. I was just, I just couldn't wait for my Vario to make some noise other than going down. Yes. Well, hey, so I'll, I'll, uh, I'll go through these questions, answer them however you like and, and, you know, take your time. If you, if you want to jump into a story or something, go for it.
But, uh, you know, you've done the race now twice before this, the same years as I did, but it, did you underestimate anything coming into this one? Anything, anything really catch you off guard? Actually, when we came to this one, uh, it was, uh, we wanted to end this race again. Yeah. And we wanted to go to the, to the end of it. And, uh, I mean, we were, we stopped the last one on the, on the injury and we wanted to, to end this race, but I was really scared about my body, uh, about my, uh, my ability that physically I would be able to end this race. And, um, so we were a bit scared when we started the race and actually, yes, uh, fortunately my body, uh, could keep up and could, uh, make it.
I mean, all the way, because we had, this race was really hard in a sense that we had the really weak termals, weak condition for, for the Alps. I was expecting, I mean, huge termals and a lot of wind and we had, uh, almost no wind and really, really smooth and, uh, and weak conditions. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. What was your, what was your, I was, you know, I was watching you guys on that final leg into Monaco. And I remember that one from. From 2015. And of course I wish I was sharing that with you, but in that heat and the, oh, those are slogs down there with those windy roads. But, uh, yeah, anyway, congratulations. It was, it was, it was fun to watch you get in. Well, actually even getting to Monaco, um, I mean, we were probably in the most, uh,
the most exciting, uh, peragliding, um, area near St. André, which is usually a huge place with a lot of great termals. And, uh, I mean, it's really unstable there. And this year we were there, uh, it was really hard and weak. And, uh, and I mean, it, it, yes, it was not usual conditions and we had to be really patient and take our time. And, and, um, even, even flying in gaggles was not that easy because the thermal wears too weak. So even getting to Monaco was hard, uh, until the last beat of, of, of, uh, flying. And this is quite. Quite unusual. And actually I, I chose when I had to choose the wing, uh, this year I had, uh, you know, my, my weight is just between the two ranges, uh, between a small one and a medium small.
And I, and I said, okay, I'll take the small wing because, uh, it's usually super strong with a lot of wind and I want to be secure with the small wing. And I, I mean, it, it happened totally the contrary. It was really weak with no wind at all. And for sure I got the wrong wing. I, I, if I had to do it again, I would probably take a big one or a huge wing to be able to, to use those really weak thermals. It was like competing in Brazil, like very, uh, in flatlands. I mean, it was really unusual. Yeah. Yeah. And you were on the zeolite as I was, correct? Yes. I was on the zeolite, but it was really small. And for example, in day two, we were flying in gaggles and I could, couldn't keep up with the gaggles because I couldn't fly. I couldn't, I mean, uh, lift myself.
And the thermal, I mean, with the right amount of speed and I was always left behind and that's why I, it took me a long time to come back from the back of the ranking. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Well, we can talk about that in a bit. Cause I was, I was watching you keenly on, on live tracking on the walks. Um, what was Gaspar? What was your biggest mistake in the race?
Um, I don't, I don't think that I made a miss a big mistake. Uh, for me, the, probably the, the big mistake was to, uh, uh, yes, um, is that one is probably that I, I, I believe that the condition, I thought that the condition would be really strong. Usually I'm a pilot that is, uh, usually my, my abilities, my, uh, my, my, my, how do you say that? My tricks, my, yeah, my, all the things, what I know how to do yes, is flying in the wind and in strong conditions. I, I'm not, um, I'm not a super good PWC pilot because I don't like it when it's really smooth and weak. Mm-hmm. And this year, I mean, it was, uh, it was not a race, uh, designed for me in the sense that we had to walk a lot.
We had to hike, uh, 4,000 meters every day, which I'm not, I mean, as good as the youngest guy we have in the, in the field. And we had to fly in this really weak thermals and this is not what I'm super good at. But in, despite all this, we could stay with the group and we could keep up and make a good race. And I think after all, we believe. I believe that the race was, was pretty, pretty nice for us. Yeah, actually, absolutely. Um, best day and worst day. Uh, the best days for sure. They three, I think when I come back from the back of the ranking, um, when I, um, I'm thinking I'm 22 or maybe 20 at the beginning of the day when I'm near, uh, near our show coming back from my show turn point, uh, one, two, three or three or four.
And I'm, uh, and I'm heading to cramp that. And I'm really back in the. Ranking. And I choose, um, when I'm heading back, back north from crunk that's to, uh, uh, soup speed. So I choose a left line. Yeah. Yeah. And this allows me to come back in the ranking and I, and the day I'm on third position. And this is, uh, this is a great, uh, this is great because I believed in this option from the beginning, but I was the only one to choose it. And at the end it works. So, so it was, it was really, um, it was fantastic. Yeah. That was, you know, it's so amazing how people can influence you, but I, I, that was my first option was going the route you did. I really wanted to go that way.
And, uh, and then the, of course the second option was to go the East line, which is, you know, Meyerhoff and which is the way I ended up going. And then the third option of course, is going the Brenner if the weather was terrible and walking across the airspace. But right before the race, I was sitting, chatting to Chrigel and I was asking him about that. And he said, ah, you know, if you, I really liked the West line, it's a little bit shorter. I liked that. But the problem with that is you always run into the Bavarian winds and the way they have the Zuchspitze line off to the Northeast, it's going to be really hard to get up through there after you leave the, the sold in. And so I, I like the East line and it was crazy. You know, when I left Chrome Platts about 15 minutes, I was in good position. I left, it was just starting to blow up and getting kind of ugly, you know, and I left in good, like 15 minutes behind those guys.
And it was very easy crossing the spine again and getting into kind of Zellum Zeller and Meyerhoff an area, but it's an area I don't know at all. And I got completely stuck there in the Valley winds for a very long time. And I didn't land. I S I stayed in the air, but then a big cell blew up off to our East, down the pins gal and in the Gus front, the dropout just, just got me. And I, I sat on the top of the hill. I sat on the top of the mountain, trying to get off. It was blowing over the back hard and I couldn't get off. Couldn't get off. Couldn't enough. And I, so I was watching you on live tracking going, ah, I should've gone that way. You know, and you were flying, I think with Willie through there too. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, at the beginning, when we got in Chrome Platts, uh, Willie arrived, arrived in complex just a few minutes before.
And when I got here, he said, okay, Gaspar, I'm going to, I'm going to fly with you. I want to follow you a bit. So I said, okay, let's go on the left side. And so. So Willie and I started to, to aim the west side, but here for sure, it was not really engaging because the first part was just blue sky with no, no cumulus at all. So we knew we, we had a lot of value in coming in and it would be tricky to go through, but I was confident and I, and I was leading, uh, with, uh, leading, um, yes, Willie was just, uh, behind me. And when I started really to engage myself, he, I think he didn't trust it. Yeah. He said that to me on Facebook a couple of days ago. He said, I don't know why I left him. And I said, you never leave Gaspar, never, never leave him.
Yeah. He made this mistake and then he got stuck in this valley wind. And I think he, I mean, this was a bad decision, but, um, luckily for me, it worked pretty well. Yeah. It worked great. Okay. So worst day.
Um, worst days probably, even if you won't believe it, but it's probably the day when we started at 3000 meters on a glacier near, um, Sion Valley and we tried to reach Chamonix. Yeah. Cause it was slow for you guys. Exactly. It was not that bad because at the end of the day we reached finally Chamonix, but I mean, we, we planned, uh, we had planned so many, so many, um, we had so many plans in our head and we, we decided to aim this, this, uh, this valley. I mean, chatting with the forecast and we were sure to do something really right. And we fought, I mean, we fought for it really, really hard. We hiked this huge glacier. We found a takeoff.
It was super hard. And then we took off and it was really stable and we fought for hours to, to reach the Martini Valley and the, and here I, I landed and, uh, suddenly I could see many of the wings that were far behind me. Like Toma Cocconia, um, Manuel Nubel and, uh, Simon Oberhauser. And they just passed me over my head and was like, damn, I did all, everything I could. I planned so many, so many ideas and it's not working. So I was really pissed off down in the valley. And uh, yes, I was, I was really, I mean, I think I was really, uh, really mad and, uh, and, uh, even it was my team. I mean, they could feel that I was, was not really happy about what was happening.
Fortunately. Um. I didn't let go and I came back and, and the, the second part of the afternoon was much better and we can land far away. Uh, but for, for a couple hours I was really, really down there, uh, you know, uh, you know, feeling really bad and, uh, and, and really annoyed and, and I was even not really nice with my crew.
Yeah. Well, I, when I was in the air, I was right with those guys at the Shilthorn and, uh, and, uh, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, I think I was in these these these
these these these these these these these these
It's our worst day because this place usually works super well. This day, we could see huge cumulus, beautiful cumulus cloud. I mean, all the signals were green. And I mean, actually, when you were flying actually in this area, it was hopeful. And this is why I think it was super annoying is that why this place are not working today. I mean, this should work and it's not working. And that's what really annoys. Hmm. If you could prepare again, you know, kind of rewind the clock for the last nine months, would you do anything differently knowing what you know now? Well, I choose a different wing. I mean, a different size. That's the only thing.
I mean, the preparation was really hard for me because of all the injuries I had. And I have to say, if someone would have told me that I would end it. I mean, I would have signed to Monaco in the seventh place. I would have signed. I mean, I would have signed with no, with no, no. I mean, for sure, I would be happy. So I think I cannot change many things for sure. The guys in front of me, I stronger. They were more trained. There are younger. They fly better. So I think that I, I would, it wouldn't change a lot if I, I mean, I couldn't do much better. I think. Hmm. Um, you told me before the race. There was no way you'd do it again, but what do you think now?
Is anything changed or are you done? Yeah, for sure. Um, if, I mean, if, if I was 25 or, uh, I would do it again for sure. I mean, my mind is, is fully into it and I like really the adventure and all what happens around the race. But now I'm, I'm not 25, I'm 38 and I have two kids that are now pretty old. They're seven and nine and I have a lot of injuries and it's every time getting worse and worse. And I mean, the preparation is always a nightmare. So if I'm smart, I quit. Uh, but then we'll, we will see if I'm smart enough. Uh, but I sure, if I'm smart, I shouldn't be there in two years. Well, if you need some inspiration, I'm 47 buddies.
So you've still got plenty of years.
Yes. Yes. But I, I'm probably not trained on like you do. I don't know, but my buddy is not, it's not, um, it's not in the. In a good, good shape. I think. Was that, was the injury in the 2017 race, was it quite severe? Uh, no, it's not about the crash I had in 2017. It's more about, uh, all the stupid races I've done since I'm 16. Like, uh, I've done a lot of, um, running and, you know, this kind of, um, uh, ultra trails and, um, all kind of races that many different kinds of races and biking and skiing in. And all this stupid thing I did when I was a kid. So I think my knees are just a bit, uh, old now. I mean, all that training and, uh,
and it's, it's like, I mean, when you're a football player, you quit when you're 25 is when you're 35. So that's pretty logical that, that my body is now a bit, a bit old. Yeah. I think it is. Yeah. It takes, it takes a lot more time to recover as well. Um, what advice you've done? You did 2015, 2017, 2019. Uh, what did, you know? Well, millions of people watch this race pilots all over the world and they get really inspired by what they see. Uh, what advice would you give to someone thinking about participating in the Red Bull X-Ops? Well, the first, the first, uh, advice, and I do quite a lot of conferences to explain this is that usually people that watches the race and they, that wanted to do it believe that it's, that you need to be a good pilot and, uh, you be, you need to be trained to do this race.
And this is true for sure. But it is not the only, the only thing that you need to be, to be, uh, to be tough in this race. I think it's a lot about thinking and a lot about strategy and about planning and preparing the race. And I think it's, it's, it's a really good thing to train, to do some, um, you know, maybe some small race, but, uh, some kind of races that are just hiking fly races, just like this one. Yeah. To be able to train how to make decisions. Yeah. Yeah. Not to make stupid decisions because you can be the best pilots in the world and you can be the most trained guy in the world. You can still do a bunch of mistakes in, in, in your race can be, can be destroyed just, just with, with one little mistake.
So I think there's a lot of thinking a lot of strategy. It's a sport like, like, like, uh, like, I mean, it's a really, um, it's a, it needs to be learned. It's not. It's not, uh, you just cannot, you can't just talk your way through. Yeah. You just cannot. Yeah. You cannot just imagine this. I mean, you have to learn it. And I think, and I think that's the best advice. Usually when you're too trained, when you're too tough on the ground, you, this is where you make the biggest mistake because you believe that you will always be able to keep up with your legs with this totally wrong. Sometimes you can, uh, you can do really smart moves with, uh, with, um, with a lot of, with a little hiking. And, and, and, and a good flying.
Yeah. And I, even if I believe I'm not, I'm by far not the best pilot and by far, I'm not the best runner, but I can still play in the front because I think that I, I try to think as much as I can to, um, yeah, to make this smart moves and try to keep to, uh, make some economy. I mean, I don't know how to say this, but to preserve my, my body and my strength. Hmm. Yeah. So what's the most critical or vital support you got from your team?
Actually I think that my team is, I mean, I'm saying this it's, it's one of the best in the, in the field. It's a team that I've been, I've built for two 15 race and it's almost the same team, uh, that I had for three races and they, they know perfectly what they have to do. We have a, we have a full team with a lot of people and they, they all have very precise tasks. And, um, there's a lot of teams that were depending on mine actually during, uh, for example, in the glacier, in the glacier, we, uh, we could, um, I mean, um, uh, thanks to us, uh, Toma, the Dolodo and Marcus, uh, Anders could cross the glacier because we had mountain guides. For example, when we got to Monaco, it was super hot.
Uh, and when I landed in the middle of the plateau before Nice and we were almost dying with the heat, uh, my team was there with water. And I mean, uh, Martin Simon Oberhanner, uh, could drink because of my team. Um, and Alpe d 'Huez, uh, the four athletes, uh, uh, I mean, I mean, I mean, at least the Swiss guy, um, uh, Patrick Van Kenel, Toma, the Dolodo and I, I mean, where, um. We could eat and drink thanks to my team. I mean, they were always there when I needed them. They knew perfectly what they had to do and they know where they knew perfectly where to be, where to settle, where to, where to be at the exact time. So that, uh, I mean, I almost never hiked alone.
I was always, uh, with one of my partners. I mean, and it helps a lot mentally, uh, to keep your motivations. Okay. Uh, I could, um, you know. Avoid carrying liters of waters. So my team was really always there when I needed them. And, and it's, and it's, and it's remarkable. I mean, I, I, I, I give, give them a huge thanks because they were just marvelous. Hmm. What was the best fan or, uh, you know, locals experience you had along the way?
Um, I had plenty when, when we came to St. Hilaire, I, I mean, uh, my brother has been, has been living there for five years. And I know a lot of people there. So we had a lot of people coming in and a lot of kids. Uh, it was super nice to share this with them. Um, uh, we had also many people during the race that, that, I mean, opened their doors and, uh, could give us, you know, just a shower or, or bring some food or some water or, I mean, during the whole race, we were like, uh, pushed by all those guys, all those persons that, that, that, uh, we had a lot of people there. would just, uh, encourage us. And this, this was just a marvelous. I Gaspar, I haven't asked anybody else this, but I would like to get your take on it.
Um, you, you said before the race that, you know, the, the French this year, and I know some of the French that applied that didn't get in are incredibly strong. Like Damien Lacaze, who did the Pakistan trip with, with, uh, Antoine and this, this last year, um, Maxime showed that he's definitely just unbelievable pilot and really, really good at this game. He had a little bit of practice with the X-Spear last year and did incredibly well there. Um, but still Kriegel's way out in front. I mean, is, do you see that anybody really has a chance?
Um, To be, to be honest, I've been racing with Chrigel for four days, um, on a Swiss, uh, competition September. And I had the opportunity or the chance to follow him and to see how this guy works and how we, the, how he manages to be always in the front. And I have to say, um, that there's no way for me, um, that this guy would be beaten, uh, in the next few years. Um, why? I mean, I think that a guy like Maxime is, is, um, is extremely good pilot. And I think he's even, it could be even better than Kriegel's. Um, but the problem is Chrigel is that he doesn't have any weakness. So he's probably the best pilot, one of the best pilot, but is also, uh, one of the best, uh, on the ground.
We could see that the prologue, for example, is, uh, is, is even better than Coconier on the great days. I mean, he's, uh, he's a machine now and he's training for this. And what people don't see is all the preparation and all the knowledge he has. I mean, he, this guy knows the ops just like, you know, you're a garden and he knows, he knows everything, every, every, um, yes, he knows every, all the places when, for example, he has an information like there's 20 Ks in this Valley. Well, he can, he knows exactly that that means that on this other Valley, it would be 18 and not on the other one, it would be 25. And he knows, he knows exactly that. And he knows exactly that. And he knows exactly that. And he knows exactly that. And he knows exactly that. And he knows exactly that. And he knows exactly that. The ops like you would know your, your, your pergliding site, your personal pergliding site and is also, so that's, that's the, the, the field knowledge, but he also knows a lot of people inside those areas.
So he knows like local specialists everywhere. He knows, um, all the, the parameters that you have to watch, watch out. Like for example, the, the winds values, he knows where to pick them. Um, What do they mean? And so it allows him to make the good decisions far ahead, far in advance. And all this, a guy like Maxime that is probably one of the only one that could keep up is far from getting all this knowledge for now. So that's why for me, there's a huge gap and it will continue for some years as long as Chrigel stays really focused into that.
We have to say that Chrigel spent his whole days, I mean, day after day in how to be better in hike and fly flying. I mean, this is his whole life and he spent all his time checking every parameter and giving his best. On every parameter, which is really different from you and me. I mean, I have kids, I have a job, I have many things to do. And I mean, his only matter is just to be a better hike and fly pilot every day. And he's for sure in this sense, I don't see how in the next few years he could be beaten. Yeah, I agree.
I agree. I agree. Gaspard, thank you, man. I really appreciate it. We're going to have to do a real show, a mayhem show just with you one of these days and get all your thoughts on this and a lot more. But this will be great to put all these little pieces together with a bunch of the pilots. So I really appreciate it. Thanks for your time. And again, man, God, dude, you'd crushed it. Congratulations. A really, really good race. Well, thank you very much. Thank you very much for asking. And hopefully we can fly a bit together in a race or not. I mean, an evolved baby stuff or something more softer. Yes. Oh, softer.
Softer sounds good right now. My feet are singing.
Thanks, man. Thank you very much. Okay. The Italian stallion, Aaron Durogati, had an incredible race. Had some real bad knees. He had some knee problems after the last one, after 2017. And he was pretty questionable going into this one, but was able to get his knee back together good enough. He did no running whatsoever. This is usually, Aaron's usually a person who does a lot of running, but can't run anymore and ended up doing something crazy, like only 18 kilometers on pavement, which in this race is remarkable. But so really kind of took it more as an adventure and a mountaineering. And so he was able to get his knee back together. And so he was able to get his knee back together. And so he was able to get his knee back together. And so he was able to get his knee back together. And he also said this was by far his best race, not his best result, but he got to, uh, he got to Monaco.
He was in ninth and, uh, did some really cool flying and some made some amazing moves in the air. Please enjoy this talk with Aaron Durogati. Aaron, uh, thanks for coming on the mayhem. I've been excited to talk to you. I'm sorry. I didn't see you in Monaco. I didn't want to go down and bear the 40 degree heat after those last, uh, those last three stable days. So I hope you had fun at the party, but, uh, congratulations on an awesome race. I was cracking up a couple of days ago. Maddie showed me footage from the start back in Mozart plats and, you know, everybody ran by and then there you were walking, you know, and, and, and she said he didn't even look like he was trying. And I said, no, no, no. That's he was, he was the first.
To take off at the Geisberg, you know, he, he, he can't run anymore on the pavement, but you trust me. He's really fast up the mountains. You're incredibly fast, man. It showed in the race, but a great, great job. Yeah. Thank you. It was a little bit, um, hard for me to, to accept the fact to don't run with the other. Because, uh, usually I was used to be really strong in. Running, but now I have to save my niece. So, um, yeah, I, yeah, I just don't run the old exiles, the prologue and the start of the exiles, which was somehow not easy because these moods in the people and everything you want really to run.
But, uh, I was focused on my strategy. And I say, I don't run. So I was kind of walking and everyone was kind of laughing about me because it was hard. The last, and they was thinking I'm going for a holiday or something, but yeah. As soon as the mountain gets deep, then I know I can push and, uh, yeah, then I overpass, uh, many outlets. And in the end I arrive up, I think, I don't know, five, six, seven. I. I. I don't know. I just prepare myself and I took off and then I was, oh, wow. I'm the first. Yeah. That was, that was great. Well, and, and, uh, you had quite a scary moment this last year, right?
With the doctor, you went to a very, very good doctor and in Italy, you were telling me on when we were hiking up to that launch and the, who basically said, and you're like, Aaron, you're, you're done. You can't, you can't keep doing this stuff anymore. Yeah, actually it was, uh, Austrian doctor. Okay. Um, yeah, it was. It was a pretty shocking because, uh, after a kind of half an hour talk and, uh, checking out my MRI and stuff, he basically say, yeah, search a nice job in office because, uh, it's over with the sport.
Hmm. Crazy. And then you got another opinion in that, that one said it's, well, no, I think it's okay. Or. No. Well, anyone told me it's okay, but, uh, I mean, after, uh, yeah, I mean, after I was to this doctor in Austria, it was, um, yeah, for sure. Um, I was having one, two weeks really, really hard. Um, but then I was. Thinking, okay. Mm. It can't be that bad or, I mean, it should be something I can do. So I find another doctor pretty famous in Italy, which, uh, well, he say for sure you, your, your niece has done a lot and they are not, not as new, but, uh, mm, he decided to do a surgery to me last year in June.
And then I did, um, some plasma. Uh, and then I did, um, some plasma. Therapy like, um, plasma infiltration in the knee and some other treatment. And, uh, then I start to do some very specific, uh, training in Innsbruck on, um, on a training center to build up some more muscle, which can give me more stability. Then I was working with the doctor, uh, which I'm used to work in Marano. Um, then I did another kind of therapy here. So basically my last, uh, one and a half year was, uh, working on my knee basically. So for the week was focused to, to get my knee in a, in a better shape.
Well, obviously it worked. So congratulations. Uh, but yeah, I mean, the X helps to put your knees through hell and you, you, uh, you made it. So congratulations. And I know your, your, your strategy and your attack was, was quite a bit
of a struggle. It was a bit
different than it'd been in the past. You know, that instead of, you know, running and doing a lot of ground game, you really tried to fly as much as possible. And it, it really, really paid off. Um, well, let's get into these questions, Aaron, and, and these, these go pretty quickly, but, uh, the first is what, if anything, you know, you've done this race now four times, I believe before. Um, what, what, if anything, did you underestimate about this race? Uh, well, actually this time was for me far the best X helps, um, because I was basically enjoying every single day I could be in the race and I was able to do that.
What I like to do, which is basically flying and being in the mountain.
So this time for me, I mean, it was kind of perfect. Um, I mean, I'm, I'm also somehow happy with my result because I was the one which was, uh, hiking, uh, less as everyone. And in the air I was flying, I think really good.
Um, yeah, I'm really happy with my, my X. I just a little bit fucked up the last day in a way, but I, I'm still happy. I did it like I did. I did it because, um, I was, I want to try to get to Monaco on fly also by flying. And so the route I choose, it was the one which gave me the biggest chance to be in pale, uh, on my glider by flying. But it turns out to be pretty bad because I have a thunderstorm behind me, which was, um, giving me a lot of headwind. And, but I think these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these time and i did a lot of vertical meter but i almost never walk in the flat and i did all in all less than 30 k's on the asphalt on the all X-Alps so wow that's amazing jeez i did that just on the morning going to saint hilaire that's amazing 18 kilometers on asphalt in saint hilaire and i did a bit more than eight nine kilometers towards monaco the last day when i get on the on the on the goal on pale and that's all the asphalt i did so wow that's amazing god that's incredible
that's incredible um well then you said that you had this kind of fuck up on the last day but my next question is what was your biggest mistake was it that one or was it what was what was the what was the worst mistake in the whole race
i did a big mistake on after davos but i was in a way lucky and um after the bad luck i was lucky let's say because when i did davos i was third and i hike up really fast on the takeoff and where maxim took off you it was already in the shade for me so i couldn't take off so i went all the way up to this valley which is leading to core and um i was basically just missing one little reach so maybe 20 minutes to walk to fly basically this valley which is going straight to core but um i mean there was the thunderstorm coming but on the basically on the east a little bit it was a blue sky clouds on 3500 meters so um i was hoping and thinking that maybe the thunderstorm will be just staying in that area of core and so i decide okay fuck it i'm gonna take off and fly basically 90 degrees from the uh route i should fly
but my idea was to fly on the on the sunny and blue sky spot wait there in the air be high and then fly back direction core but what's in in the end happened is that i took off and i got like about minus four to minus five minus six basically till the ground off the other valley and i was thinking okay now i'm super fucked up like apart of having done thousand vertical meter in 50 minutes for nothing i was like 25 kilometer or out of the route but then i was lucky because uh basically i was 100 meter above the valley floor above a church and i was pointing this church in the last 10 minutes of my super sinking
uh flight and exactly there where i want to have the thermal where i expect the thermal i got it but i was 100 meter above the valley and i went from thousand meter above ground which was the valley floor till 3300 all the way and then yeah and then i climbed there to the cloud i make one one transition on the same side of the valley and then i mean it was visible the fucking thunderstorm was just going in my direction so then i had to fly towards the thunderstorm and land in the mountain waiting that the thunderstorm passed and then i was again on the on the on the right valley let's say but uh that was i mean you can see my track log in davos it's pretty stupid from the other side i i was thinking at the moment it was a good idea
and i sure not expected four six meters sinking all the way down till the valley floor yeah i had one of those as well that i think day three that's the worst um okay maybe that's your best and worst day together but best day and worst day okay well the the best day was for sure the third day when i flew from kitzbühel to kronplatz and to lermos and a little bit further also so i think it was i never really check it but it should be more than 200 and i crossed basically the the main reach of the alps twice um yeah there i start in the morning i think i'm going to be able to do it in the morning i think i'm going to be able to do it in the morning morning but these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these these bit more north i is fair i see there was a convergence i could follow it and yeah that day i flew really well and both the worst day i don't know like for sure the worst flight was my last flight um but also that in the end turns to be cool because i mean i like i told you i was in this valley without any landing chance for two hours i was pretty sure i'm gonna land in the tree and then um basically by fighting fighting fighting um i see one little landing field on the lee side of a little village it was like 30 meters time 30 or something like that but then um just before i managed to land in the tree i was in this valley without any landing chance for two hours i was managed to get there i i have to pass one little reach and i got a huge collapse which there i was almost sure to crash because i was like 50 meter high and basically the old glider disappear so i was already thinking okay i have one second if the glider open good if not open i'm the rescue and i and i hope it's gonna open the rescue but with 50 meters it's pretty sketchy and uh in the end the glider just disappear but two second after it's reinfilate without having cravat so that was really good i mean i was lucky i was maybe doing
everything perfect but i think the border between nothing happen and uh being crashing in the tree was very very bad and i think it's a very bad thing to do and i think it's a very bad thing to do and very tight and anyway i managed to land in that field in that kind of a field and then my supporter came and i was still like seven 700 meter high so and for sure the worst for me it's to walk downhill so that's really bad now so my supporter told me okay let's try to hike really on the top and then maybe we can cut some of the trees and then we can go up the hill and then we can go up the hill some tree and in some way you can take off again but then we start to walk and on the street i see like the chance to take off from the street so i took off again but my supporter was telling me what are you doing you know it's no landing field here it was almost crying the last two hours so what do you want to take off again and i say yeah because i don't want to walk down and i see there was like a tree and i was like oh my god i'm gonna take off again and i was like oh my god two reaches which i couldn't see in front and basically i'm an optimistic guy and i was i was sure that behind the third reach it's gonna be something to land so i took off of finding and basically after the third reach it was like 10 times 10 meters landable so i land there then again i was still 500 meter high from the valley floor so i walked two kilometer and then i did the best ever took off of the all because i from a castle like yeah a castle it was the only thing which was i mean it was not even to think about it but the street was full of cable and there were three everywhere so my supporter went on the castle and there was some little wind and so yeah i say okay let's try and then i went on the castle and i took off from there and i fly all the way down till uh yeah before nice ah it's awesome
aaron you know you're you're kind of in a similar position to me now with your little one you had a you had a little boy i think he's three now um you know i had a little girl right after the last X-Alps how has that affected your because i see you know you're doing these huge expeditions to patagonia and tons of ice climbing and uh you know and i know you're very very good at what you do and careful but the how has having a child changed how you approach these things that we do and things like the X-Alps
um in a way it didn't change and in a way it changed just uh in a better way because uh um when i come home i know i have my little kid and it's my nice uh girlfriend um uh i feel more peaceful but i'm not doing less of the thing i like to do because of a kid in the end um i think to be good for them i need to be happy and um if i don't do those things i'm not happy so so i'm just following that what's my my passion are and right now now it's um still flying and climbing i'm really more and more into climbing
and yeah probably from a normal point of view it's not really good at what i'm doing but i feel okay and for my girlfriend it's okay so we are yeah and she's a she's a pilot too so she gets it um okay uh if you could prepare anything differently uh you know and again you've you've done the X-Alps now a number of times so you know how to prepare if you could do anything differently than what you did what would it be yeah probably i will have to go back maybe 20 years and a little bit saving my knees
okay and the question you well go ahead what sorry a part of this um um yeah you could always prepare a little bit better like uh um this um i think i'm not the guy who like google earth and knows even better the valleys and the stuff but i'm not the guys which like so much to plan and to be in front of the computer so i think i did this time way more than what i did the other years so i was not so much lost like the other years because normally i was really lost this time i was lost but not that much
aaron do you find um you know you and i now have done it together three times and you did it once before before that you did in 2013 as well but the i found the pace this time just unbelievable you know i mean we had we had in a lot of ways pretty good weather we weren't dealing with a lot of wind and we definitely had plenty of thunderstorms and stuff but i found that this was the kind of the easiest flying weather of the three that i've done but the the the pace of the of the teams i have found just in so much faster than it was in my first one in 2015 i mean in 2015 i made so many more mistakes and still got to monaco in good time in a better place than this time but this time i felt like you know at least for me i was really doing better than i've ever done and and still there's you know 10 people out in front i just found that the pace is getting really fast is that something that you're trying to do right now i'm not sure if that's the something you're noticing as well yeah yeah definitely i think i think this year exalps the weather was um it was not a difficult weather because we didn't have to deal with um uh strong wind or um super ugly thunderstorm stuff but in in in the average the weather was was not that good i mean we have a very
it was uh the day where i flew kronplatz and lermos and then we had like three good days and then we have really kind of bad days in a way because like when i was in swiss it was raining when i was in french it was super stable yeah and even of that we was covering like um about 80 to 110 k's air distance a day yeah which was really impressive like um or like i say i didn't walk at all on the asphalt but uh i was doing a lot of vertical meter like i think i did or i didn't check it exactly but um roughly i i will say i did like 45 000 vertical meter yeah so
means i was doing like more than 4 000 a day yeah i think that's that's kind of where i came in as well that's a lot it's really a lot and yeah i think that the the level was uh at least of the first 15 was like super high because uh exactly if i think back at 2013 or 15 um by bad days there was a day i think in 2013 i did all in all like 40 kilometer which is less than half of of a bad day uh of this this uh red bull X-Alps yeah um yeah i think uh everyone become faster and uh way more efficient like in the in the way of choosing the route in the way of hike and fly never landing really down and again hike a bit and then fly again whatever so yeah the level is definitely super high i mean i if i think with the weather we were having in 2013 or 15 we might have finished these X-Alps in seven days or yeah eight days yeah i i agree i
think that's a good thing um yeah i think that's a good thing um yeah i think that's a good thing um will you do it again um i think so depends what my knee will say about it
but for sure motivated yeah like like i said from the beginning this time um for me was uh excellent and i really enjoy and my team was also really cool it was the first time i was having um uh alpine guide a good friend of mine which was walking a lot with me and um we was doing we were sometimes really enjoying like the first day we went up on this uh taking gebirge and we were sleeping in the tent and in the morning having a super nice sunrise taking off at six in the morning we was having really some
nice mountain experience
and the the general approach of the team was really in a positive attitude because i was very how to say like i didn't promise them that i'm gonna win or whatever i say look for me it's it's it's amazing that my knee let me start again this race so let's try to do our best and let's try to have fun yeah and you guys were having a heck of a battle down there between monteviso and the end it was that was really fun to watch i was in the soup going into saint hilaire so i had plenty of time to just watch and watch live track you get and see the battle going on it was a lot of a lot of changing places it was fun yeah but i didn't realize because i took off with them and then um we had to top land and we had to go to the top land and i top land differently then i was alone and then i see gaspar and tom i flew a little bit different and i got really good so then i overpassed them and i didn't saw anyone till
the no till the next day basically i was flying alone and actually that day
happened something really funny because uh um at the beginning it was really stable and it was super difficult to climb but once i climbed on the before the galibier the day was good it was some headwind but the day was not too bad so once i was high i was feeling safe and i was cruising pretty fast toward uh brian's song and and then i start to be tired and i'm start to almost uh fell asleep in the air i was thinking what can i do and i start to sing but that was not enough so like internet connection and i basically went on youtube and i start to watch a music video of the 90s
and i was singing like songs and then i was i was like being awake
that's good i've never heard that one aaron
well hey man thank you very much uh again enormous congratulations uh you really overcame a pretty serious knee issue to uh to finish in style that was that was awesome to watch and awesome to witness it was so fun racing with you again and sharing some of that time with you the first day and uh yeah man that was a blast but i i wish you the best and renata and your little boy and and uh good healing with the knee and and who knows maybe we'll see each other again in a couple years at this crazy wacky race will be nice kevin thank you very much thank you and see you soon okay see you soon
bye if you find the cloud based mayhem valuable you can support it in a lot of different ways you can give us a rating on itunes or stitcher or however you get your podcast that goes a long ways and helps spread the word you can blog about it on your own website or share it on social media you can talk about it on the way up to launch with your pilot friends i know a lot of interesting conversations have happened that way and of course you can support us financially this show does take a lot of time a lot of editing a lot of storage and music and all kinds of behind the scenes cost so if you can support us financially all we've ever asked for is a buck a show and you can do that through a one-time donation through paypal or you can set up a subscription service that charges you for each show that comes out we put a new show out every two weeks so for example if you did a buck a show and every two weeks it'd be about 25 a year so way cheaper than a magazine subscription and it makes all of this possible i do not want to fund this show with advertising or sponsors we get asked about that pretty frequently but i just want to for a whole bunch of different reasons which i've said many times on the show i don't want to do that i don't like having that stuff at the front of the show and i also want you to know that these are authentic conversations with real people and these are just our opinions but our opinions are not being skewed by sponsors or advertising dollars i think that's a pretty toxic business model so i hope you dig that um you can support us if you go to cloudbasedmayhem.com you can find the places to support you can do it through patreon.com forward slash cloudbased mayhem if you want a recurring subscription you can also do that directly through the website we've tried to make it really easy and that will give you access to all the bonus material a little video cast that we do and extra little uh nuggets that we find in conversations that don't make it into the main show but we feel like you should hear we don't put any of that behind a paywall if you can't afford to support us then just let me know and i'll set you up with an account of course that'll be lifetime and hopefully and you're being in a position someday to be able to support us but you'll find all that on the website and we'll see you next time on the cloud based mayhem podcast site uh all of you who have supported us or even joined our newsletter or bought cloudbased mayhem merchandise t-shirts or hats or anything you should be all set up you should have an account you should be able to access all that bonus material now thank you so much for listening i really appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next show thank you
so much for watching and i'll see you next time on the cloud based mayhem podcast
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