Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. I am recording this exactly 30 days before the race, but by the time you get this, it's going to be the 26th, so hopefully we'll be closing on Monaco. Maybe we'll even be there. That'll be 10 days after the race. We've got 12 days to get there. Hopefully you're all watching and rooting us on. Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. I am recording this exactly 30 days before the race, but by the time you get this, it's going to be the 26th, so hopefully we'll be closing on Monaco. Maybe we'll even be there. That'll be 10 days after the race, but by the time you get this, it's going to be the 26th, so hopefully we'll be closing on Monaco.
Maybe you're all watching and rooting
us on.
And then from that result and then just how fun that was, he applied to the X-Alps and got in. So it's going to be fun to race with him. He's becoming a really good pilot. And as you'll see in this podcast, he's incredibly analytical. A couple months ago, he gave me access to his blog. It's kind of like his journal online that's just private. And I just thought it was terrific. And I thought, man, I got to get you on the show, Willie. This is really cool. And we take a real deep dive into things that are kind of hard to, at least for me, to put into words. Like, why do we do this? Why do we fly? I mean, obviously, there's the fun and, you know, just the escapism and the impossibility of flight with a little piece of plastic and some nylon over your head.
So there's all that. But he really gets into it. And I think you're going to, I know you're going to really enjoy this. His perspective on life and flying and just how to go through life is super, super interesting. And I think it'd be really fun to just hear this as the race is going on and see how it lines up with the actual race and his thoughts. I've been getting a lot of thoughts, or a lot of thoughts. I've been getting a lot of emails and texts and stuff from folks that listen to and really enjoyed the episode on Rick Heatley, the Canadian who went in after a midair, spent a very cold night out in the snow. And a lot of people were pretty surprised with how little gear he had.
And they were surprised I didn't call him out on that. We did talk about, you know, I was kind of flabbergasted that he didn't have an inReach and he didn't have a spare battery. So we got into it a little bit in the show. But yeah, I totally agree. You know, I've certainly been guilty of not having a spare battery. And, you know, like some things that were pointed out, like lack of good footwear, you know, because he was flying over snow. Well, I mean, yes and no. I mean, the same, you know, I've never been one of these people who likes to use hiking boots for flying. I think it's actually less safe. And this is just my opinion. And there are a lot of different opinions on this. But I don't like big, you know, hiking boots that go up over the ankle. I like to be really nimble and able to move real fast on launch because I think that's often the case.
And so I use tennis shoes no matter what, even if it's freezing. So and you'll see me. That's what I'll be using in the X-Alps, even when there's all this snow. So, you know, a pair of tennis shoes and some gators is as far as I'm ever going to go. But other things for sure, you know, especially if you're if you're flying XC, you know, the one that I know you guys are all sick of me here talking about the inReach. But, you know, when I heard that he didn't have an inReach, I just I don't even like flying with people. That don't have an inReach. It just drives me crazy. You know, we had a very good friend of mine the other day, just didn't have his and landed out way deep. And we didn't know where he was. And, you know, got back to the parking lot after a big XC day and his van still there.
And then a few hours later, his van still there. And, you know, it's just like we were kind of panicked. Like, you know, is he OK? Should we go? Should we call search and rescue? Should we call 911? What do we do? Should we launch again and look around because we kind of knew the area that he was in? And, you know, a simple inReach would just we'd know exactly where he was and we could message him. So anyway, that's the number one. But the other thing, too, is I think it's a really good idea. Chris Weigel reached out, as did a number of others, and said, hey, man, you know, I was surprised he didn't have X and X and X. So I put together a little list, you know, like when I fly here in Sun Valley, I've got like a light sleeping bag. You know, it's not going to, you know, do it in the middle of winter, but it'll certainly keep you more comfortable. If you've got to stay in the night out, I've always got extra food.
I've always got extra water, not extra water, you know, some tablets or something. But it's also a really good idea to have some kind of kit that fits where you're flying. You know, first aid, your first aid should always have some pretty decent painkillers in it in case there's some trauma. You want to have like some dental floss. You want to have like some tree, a tree kit. You want to have a knife, you know, depending on the again, depending on the terrain, like you might want a knife with a little saw so you can deal with branches. Or something.
What else? Let's see. You want to have definitely a flashlight, you know, or headlamp, you know, with good batteries. I always take my batteries and reverse them so the button can be pushed when it's in my kit. You want to be thinking about your radio. You've got to have a spare battery because what if you, what if your phone goes down? Then those inreaches get pretty hard to utilize. You've got to have cables to power up stuff. You know, maybe if you're, maybe if you've got the space, you've got a little solar panel. You know, you can do, you know, you can charge your batteries back up. Trekking poles. You've got to have, you know, depending on where you are, maybe your first aid kit's got like some snake bite stuff in it. And that was one of the things I learned from Chris. That was, that's a really good idea. Yeah.
Lighter. Maybe some, you know, like a little bit of lint from your dryer so you can make a real easy fire. That certainly keep you more comfortable at night and also can be used to signal a little, little tiny mirror. You can take. A lot of, uh, any number of places, but nice little signaling mirrors, a good idea again with an in-reach, probably not necessary, but, uh, nice to have a little backup. So anyway, be thinking about this stuff. I think, you know, this kind of thing has come up a lot on the show and I'm surprised people are still, you know, when you're flying XC, depending on where you are, um, you know, there's a good chance you're going to land out. And, uh, certainly that little bit of peace of mind is worth a few pounds and a little tiny bit of space. So. Something to think about. Okay.
So back to the X-Alps back to Willie, uh, you're going to dig this show. You're going to dig this talk. Super fascinating guy. He lives right down the street from me. I, I, I feel real privileged to be able to fly with Willie and been able to watch him kind of come up really quick. Uh, and, uh, hopefully you're all, all of your eyes are right now on the X-Alps and we're crushing. I hope, I hope, hope. And, uh, anyway, yeah. Enjoy this doc. See you soon.
Willie. Awesome to have you on the show. Man. This is so, uh, cool that we can do this live. I don't get to do this very often. So welcome to the, uh, cloud-based mayhem.
Good to be at the headquarters. Yeah. That's where the magic happens, man.
Uh, but yeah, you and I have been training a lot together. I'm really excited to talk to you about, it's just cool that my neighbor is, uh, is, is going to go compete with me here in a few weeks. This has been really fun and it's been fun to see your progression. So we're going to talk a lot and we're going to use your, your, your hire. You get, uh. Kind of personal journal that you've been kind enough to share with me as our kind of guideline. I think people are going to really dig it before we get into that. Uh, we're going to, we're going to start this off talking about our Nevada flight last week, which ozone just pasted all over the place. That was pretty cool. Um, but also I wanted to just give the audience a quick, you know, your resume version of your paragliding life, because you haven't been at this very long and you're going off to compete in the biggest one.
There is, you know, it's the big show.
First of all, thanks for having me here, Gavin. I've half of what I've learned in this sport, I feel like is from cloud-based mayhem. So I'm honored to be here with you. Awesome. Uh, yeah, but I, um, I learned to fly in 2013 around this time of the year. Uh, so I guess that was six years ago. Yeah. Well, five and a half or so I've been flying. Uh, yeah, I talked to Mike Fow, a local pilot here who pointed me in the right direction down to super fly, learned to fly at the point of the mountain and then came back up to Iowa. And I kind of had a, I was really busy on the river that was also right when I was, uh, taking the leap to buy this outfitting business. So kind of a lot of life changes happening at that time and didn't get to concentrate too much on flying right away, but did a lot of flying on my own alone up in Salmon, actually that first year or two that I had my P2.
And, uh, and then I got to spend some more time in the summers flying here. Uh, Mike Fow again, kind of was my first mentor here. Uh. Uh, taught me a lot. And then, um, finally started to get to do some, some real XC flights in our beautiful central Idaho area. And, uh, yeah, it's kind of been a crazy adventure ever since.
It, it, it's kind of unique in that you, you know, your job, your, your outfitting business and river business on the middle fork is like in the meat of our season. So you're the guy that I have to go to every day in the spring. Cause you're so hungry. Cause you know, you're going off to the river. Um, and then we were, we were having a conversation the other day about just like when new people come here, how do we get them up to speed? Because it's a, it's not the easiest place to learn how to fly. And this place is on, especially in the summer, not to put you on the spot, but what do you think it is about your own personality and relationship to risk that allowed you to learn here? Cause it's, it's not, it's, you know, I wouldn't recommend most people learn here there. It's a unique kind of personality that can kind of.
Grapple with the strength of conditions that we have.
Yeah. I, um, I don't know. Maybe I took more risks than is advisable in the beginning of my kind of thermal flying when I was up in salmon. And when I was here kind of learning to fly a lot of the times alone, I don't think I did. Um, but it's, yeah, it's a tough question. How do we make an area that is kind of notoriously big air accessible? And we also don't really get that many. Yeah. It's not. It's not a consistent place. We don't get flying days every day, so we kind of got to grab them when they're good. But I don't know. For me, um, it was kind of a blessing and a curse that I couldn't really have every summer day available to fly when, especially when I was learning. Um, it kind of forced me to go to Valle and go to Columbia and go other places.
Um, maybe sooner reach out to that kind of other world out there of paragliding sooner than I would have if I could have flown. I mean, I was learning to fly. I was learning to fly. You know, those first two or three years that I was learning to fly. Uh, but on the other hand, I know I missed a lot of great flying here, so I'm not sure. But yeah, as far as making the area accessible, I think people just need to come and stick it out. And there's, I mean, I couldn't have asked for better mentors. You know, there, there's some amazing pilots here to, to teach whatever you need, really. So it just takes spending the time.
Five of 10, I believe, uh, of the U.S. X-Alps athletes in the history of the race have, you know, have been from here, but certainly, you know, cut their teeth here if they weren't from here. But, you know, Hansa, Mitch, Nate, of course, was the first. Um, is that place? Is that people?
Hmm. I think it's people. I mean, I think that, I think it's definitely, I think we have, um, you know, launching Baldy using Sun Valley is, is, and it has a name. And I think that draws great pilots here. I don't owe it to Sun Valley that those amazing, you know, pilots who you mentioned have been in the X-Alps and done other incredible flying learn necessarily something here that they wouldn't somewhere else. I think this is just a really beautiful place and it draws passionate people.
I don't know if I mentioned Hansa, but I should have used five times in the X-Alps. What a lunatic. Um, and I'm getting up there too. So, so. Because we're all lunatics. Um, let's switch to Nevada. We had a pretty special day. Uh, you and I and Cody. So team USA went out to Nevada on this big mission and, uh, and it got it. You got your personal best. Um, you've written very poetically and beautiful about it in your, in your, uh, in your blog here. Tell me about that, that day and what was, what was special about it for you?
Yeah, the most special. Well, so first of all, as usual, I ended up flying. Alone for most of the flight as, uh, as we do watching you faster guys just heading off into the distance. But, um, yeah, it was a really special flight. Um, kind of thrown myself in Nevada a few times and it's always really amazing when it works. I think, you know, one thing I learned after that flight was it's so important in this sport to have confidence in putting yourself in the right place at the right time. So that means looking at the. Forecast and Cody basically set us up so well for that. I had a little bit of doubt about that launch, but, you know, if you put yourself in the right place at the right time, as far as the conditions go, you're, you're kind of, you're using the slight edge to, to set yourself up for success.
And that's what happened with that flight. You know, the, it seems like all of the, I guess, personal best, not necessarily the personal longest, but personal best flights that I've had have been, um, you know, some of the easier flights really, even though being in the air. A long time isn't always easy. Sometimes it's challenging just, just to keep going at times, but yeah, I think it was just a really, really amazing day. Um, one of the, one of the coolest things about that flight for me is, you know, I've looked up at the skies in Nevada so many times from the ground and just thought, God, it'd be so amazing. What would it be like to fly over this whole area and being on highway 50, just looking up at booming skies and then finally getting to do it, you know, and watching the town, watching Austin Eureka. And having Ely come inside at the end of that flight was really special.
I was blown away by the, I mean, I've driven across Nevada for so many times I've forgotten. And I used to live in Lake Tahoe. I mean, I've lived in Nevada a bunch of my life. And, you know, every time I drive across, across Nevada, I'm always like, Jesus, there's nothing out here. I mean, it's just, it brings me a lot of hope for our society. There's nothing, there's nothing out there. But seeing it from that perspective was like, wow, there's really nothing out here. Just mountain hopping all day. And there, you know, there's nothing out there. You know, at one point I was like, oh my God, there's a, there's a bear down there. And it was a cow, you know, but I mean, you know, that's about it.
Cows, cows scare me more than bears.
They like our wings
too much.
You know,
one of the
coolest things about training for these races, like the X-Alps and the X-Piers, you put yourself, and Karel mentioned this the other day too, like it changes your mindset. Like you stop thinking about, God, that's going to take me six hours to walk out of there if I land. And you start thinking, I'm God. The food, I'm prepared. And that's going to be a really nice walk out when I land down there. And then you end up not landing down there because you have the confidence to go where you need to go.
That's, that's really powerful. I think, I think that, yeah, I learned that down in Australia training for the 2015 race. We were doing flatland towing. I mean, you, depending on the wind direction down there, you are sometimes really flying out to a place where if you land early, you could really be in, there's no shade. And it's like way over a hundred degrees. You know, so it's pretty intense. But if you follow the roads, you're not going to send it. You have to abandon that stuff. And it's, yeah, it's, there's a real kind of self-sufficiency to it all that you really have to abandon the roads. I think that's just the case and in the sport to do well. Yeah. So tell me about this journal.
How long you been doing it? In some ways, I feel like it's really opportunistic. And timing, I just did this review for Maxine Bellman's book that, that just came out called performance flying for, for cross country. And this was one of the first things he recommended was that's really geared towards competition flying. But you know, that you, you land and you pull your journal out of your flight deck and you write it down and you, you know, instead of throwing your helmet and kicking your stuff, I'm getting all pissed off and getting drunk that night, you know, journal about it, learn from it. And, you know, I think the benefits of journaling have been well proven. At this point, but what was, what was the inspiration for you? Have you always been a writer? Is it, I mean, this is like, I've never,
I never really kept a, I started, um, I started my kind of life, not related to paragliding journal at the same time that I started this one. And I, I guess I, uh, I guess it's maybe, I don't know, three years old or so that I've, I've been kind of writing my notes down. Um, the reason I do it, I think maybe because if I didn't just write some of this stuff down and get it out of my head, then I wouldn't. I'd never sleep. I'd never be able to relax. So I just, it's a coping mechanism.
But I mean, yeah, there are some things, you know, you know, and there's some, I like to, I like to do my best and try to get better at the things that I'm dedicating my time to. It's, it's probably all kind of related to this sort of phase of my life where I'm realizing how fast time is slipping by. And, and I want to do something about that. But, you know, it's also kind of a trip because. I write all this stuff down and I write everything I, I can that I think I need to, to be better and then kind of realize that you can't really like attach to any of it if you really want to get better. You know, it's good to make these notes and to learn from them and they do apply in some instances, but really, um, really to kind of, to be a master of anything, you have to sort of know it and then set it aside and kind of know when to touch in with some of that stuff.
And so, yeah. Having a journal helps me do that.
Do you, do you have any kind of a schedule when you go back to it or do you just go back to it when you need to?
No, I don't. No, it's mostly, I mean, I go back to it occasionally if there's, you know, a piece of information in there that I know is irrelevant to what I, what I want to know in that moment. But, you know, I'll refer to it for information, but usually it's, it's just a, it's a resource for putting stuff down, not, not taking stuff back out of it. If that makes sense.
Yeah. Do you, do you credit, um, how you've gotten good really fast in, in, uh, in, you know, not a lot of years. And, um, and like you said, cause your, your job keeps you away from flying, you know, for a good portion of our summer. Do you, do you credit some of that to, is this part of your kind of, is this part of your puzzle piece? Is this part of your success? It
probably is. Um, I don't know. I don't, I have trouble kind of. Uh, yeah, I guess I can agree that, you know, my learning progression has been accelerated at times compared to other people's, but, um, but I think that's just, I just enjoy, I just enjoy it. And I, I, I don't know how much of this journal is related to, to my, uh, my actual learning progress, but, um, but some of, some of the information in there I'm sure is related. That might not have answered your question at all.
No, no, it does. I mean, it's, um, when I, when I read it, I. Because I know you and I've flown a lot with you, um, I, I see a, a, a similar tension in this flow tension in you that I think many of us do in paragliding, you know, this kind of this, you know, this incredible passion and desire and God, it kicks your ass sometimes. And it's this, you know, and I, I, I appreciate that you're, you're writing it down and trying to take. Uh, there's takeaways there and there's, you know, there's, there's moments of clarity and then there's moments of cloudy.
Mm-hmm. There's definitely moments of cloudy. Those are the, we like cloudy moments. I
like cloudy moments, yeah.
It's not too many clouds. So let's. No, I know what you're saying, but, um, yeah, go on.
Well, I, it, well, yeah, I wasn't really asking a question. It was more just, um, I think, I think it's really valuable what you're doing here. And I think this is, you know, the, the takeaway. Before we even get into it, which we're about to, the takeaway is I think that we as pilots should be doing this. That was, that was my, when I read this, I was like, oh, how many things have I missed? Cause I haven't written it down or, you know, because we, I have tried to get a lot better about bombing out and instead of freaking out, just, oh, what happened there? What was going on? We had it happen to us the other day, you know? So rather than packing up my gear, I just sat there for a while. I'm like, what could I have done differently here? And, you know, what? Did I make a mistake? Was it just the day? Was it, you know, what is it?
So, yeah.
Um, yeah. And a large part of the whole, a large part of this whole writing process in the journal for me is, um, figuring out why we do this. I mean, it's really fun. It's the coolest thing I've ever done in my life. Paragliding and being at 18,000 feet underneath a cloud on a paraglider, but, you know, basically nothing. Um, but it is dangerous. You know, I mean, we're taking risks with our lives and I know it's hard to be, it's hard to say exactly what that risk reward is and it's different for every person in every moment, uh, but kind of wrestling with the, with the risk of it all, uh, is, is a large part of why I keep these notes. I feel like I'd be lost in that aspect of, um, of that, of that part of the experience, um, without writing some of this down.
Um, yeah, that's, that's part of it too.
So I'm going to ask you the hardest. Question of the whole thing. Why?
I don't know. Uh, I mean, obviously it's really fun and that makes it worth it. Um, but yeah, why do something that's, that at times could be dangerous and some, you know, people who you respect as skilled pilots to have died doing, uh, uh, it's necessary for, uh, some sort of psychological health, I think, um, to some degree, uh, to be doing really fun, somewhat extreme. Stuff. Hmm. For some people, they don't need paragliding. Hmm. Others do.
Hmm. Why is it that some of us do?
That I don't know. I have no idea. I, my, I, I have always suspected that more people should be flying paragliders because it's so much fun, but, um, I'm not sure. I haven't, I haven't really, I mean, in this, uh, in this journal of mine, I've kind of thrown out a lot of theories, but none of them really. like answer that question um part of the fun is related to the risks the risk that we take um i don't know i think that being kind i think some people need to be a little bit closer in in touch with death for for like a clarity of life of life and um and that might be some of it but you know it's possible that we're just kind of stupid and we really like doing stuff that's really fun and and don't really calculate that risk reward properly we're good at at calculating it but we're not doing it properly um or aware of it so i'm not sure it's a really hard question but
i think
it's one that at least we should at least be thinking about and trying to figure out and if somebody does have an answer for themselves that's awesome and i i don't know if i maybe i do for myself but i just can't put it into words but it's obviously part of what we do what
does cat think about you flying and then uh xpeer and now xops she's
stoked about it all um and and i think she's i'm pretty open and honest with her about yeah it's there are times when it's dangerous and i know and i think i believe that i know when i'm taking risks and when i'm not and you know taking those risks are one percent of the time but um no she's she's really supportive really proud of me and she's done a lot of risky things in her life too like her long horseback rides solo across the west and stuff are arguably more risky than our paragliding but um yeah if
you're scared of horses as i am then for sure way more terrified to do what she's doing it's interesting she's
you know i i get more fear around horses because they're not predictable but to her horses are more predictable than flying a paraglider in dynamic conditions yeah that's interesting yeah
that's super interesting um okay let's just let's just tap on a few of these because i they're they're just terrific and we're not going to be able to get to all of them but uh one of the first things you learned was from a friend of ours who taught me as well christina croce words to never forget yeah
i don't even know if i so so he said um he said to me once and it was kind of i think after i got my p2 and maybe i was down there for a maneuvers course or something it was kind of late in my first phase of learning how to paraglide but long before i was you know close to an intermediate um but he said never um you know always be stoked for a sledder don't feel like you you if you're not just flying off a mountain and i don't remember i'm sure he said it much more intelligently than i remember it and i hope i'm not distorting your words chris but uh you know basically always be stoked for a sledder you don't have to have some great flight you know to to mark a good flight and you know i use that sort of as a way to check in with myself and i'm not going to do it myself if i'm even if i'm totally amped for a long cross country day and all my gear is ready you know it takes effort to just pack the whole kit every time we go paragliding i check in with myself and think hey if i was just going up there for a sledder and i was just gonna go up fly off baldy land at the river and parking lot and go home would i be stoked about that today and there are some days where maybe i wouldn't and i just that doesn't necessarily mean like i wouldn't go flying but it's a way i i it's it's a metric i use to just kind of check in with myself and where i'm at as far as if i'm bringing it or not really have
you thought about that in relation to the race in relation to what's coming up because there's you know like the other day you're like yeah i don't feel it and we all have those days and i believe i hope i've gotten a lot better at listening to that there's you know there are times now where i'm just like i'm in the air i'm not into it and i just gonna land in a nice spot um you know we can't really do that in the race are you have you thought about i will that happen you think or could it or in
the X-Pyr that never happened it's kind of like you know i was just you're just so stoked i was so stoked the whole time um and i did a lot of sledders and i was stoked to just be doing the sledders knowing that it wasn't cross country conditions but you know i got to just go up and fly you know it's kind of like all you know training for a foot race or something you're not always feeling great in training you're not always feeling great in training but when you get to the race it's a different condition it's different you're not training there's something different and so yeah i don't think that's going to be a problem at the xl's
what if anything have you had trouble with in the last nine months and you and i are on the same you know we have the same trainer ben abruzzo shout out to you you fucker for crushing us all the time but yeah it's been he's amazing uh no it's been terrific and uh but you and i are in a very similar program but yeah what what's been what's been the thing that's been the hardest part of preparing for the xl's the
hardest part was um god this is why i have such an awesome supporter shout out to rob curran um the hardest part was right when i found out that i got in i when i applied i was like i obviously wouldn't have applied if i didn't think there was a chance that they'd accept me but um but i was shocked for sure and it took me a little while to process probably a month or so to process like what what have i signed up for knowing that i'd enjoy it i'd be stoked for the training i'd be stoked to show up and do my best but i realized that what i was the hardest part for me was kind of grappling with attainment it was a lesson in non-attainment i was kind of orienting to like not only is it a thousand kilometers across the alps but also i'm putting some sort of like attainment pressure on me on myself um so kind of sorting that out and figuring out like my own by
attainment you mean results but yeah
everything results just kind of
you know focusing on yeah the competitive aspect rather than the experience uh like trying to quantitate rather than qualitate the X-Alps um yeah trying to uh yeah basically making the importance of the race the center of the race rather than the experience and um so that was probably the hardest part in the beginning figuring out like my own ethos around like such a huge endeavor but that uh you know i've definitely settled into like you know mental state and preparatory state that i'm really happy about um kind of more non-attainment focused and honza um he said to me a couple times like how the X-Alps is just the biggest game in the world but it's still just a game you know and it's it's uh um
so yeah kind of kind of figuring out what the X-Alps actually is for me was was the hardest part harder than the training for sure i've actually really i i don't find it too hard to the training the only time it's it's hard to put in all i mean it's so many hours but the only thing that makes it hard is is figuring out if i have the time in my schedule in a given week um it's not actually showing up to the to the task yeah
i had this this interesting in 2015 when i first started doing it i would i would look at these workouts and go good god you know what and i very quickly realized like the it's just like the X-Alps they all they end you just all you gotta do ends it doesn't matter how long the pavement pound goes it's just like you know if you can if
you have to break it down to this to just the step then yeah then it's fine then it's all
it's all very manageable okay so non-attainment and what the race means to you what is it what did you come up where did you land what does it mean to you and bring rob back into it you said oh yeah well rob's just got from him
rob's done some really cool adventures of his own um he was my in the X-Pyr and um he's just got the right attitude that's a huge part of what he brings to team usa2 is um i don't want to call it casual but when it has to be casual it's casual i don't want to call it like um you know in the X-Pyr it's hard it was hard for me to figure out when i had to go hard and when i had to tune it back and he's got an awesome perspective on that and he has a perspective on like telling me yes you're looking at this in the right way or no you're not and um yeah so i don't know it was just helpful chatting with him after hearing about uh getting accepted the X-Alps and after he was i'm so grateful he was stoked to be up for the task as supporter um to kind of figure out you know what it means to compete in the X-Alps
the X-Alps is basically just like the biggest experiment i've ever done with my life it's a big experiment for me you know what can i do and that the and many of the results are in because i've been training you know for months you know half a year or more seven months or whatever already you know what can i do with my body um what can i do so for me it's different because this will be the first time i ever i've ever flown in the alps so i have to keep that in perspective like what that's part of the experience for me like showing up to a totally new environment and seeing what i can do and that's part of the experiment and um obviously how much fun can i have how much meant it's an experiment mental toughness which i'm which is again like very type 2 fun but something i'm excited to to push the envelope on uh what can i do with my body i'm in the best shape i've ever been in my life so you know the experiment's working i'm really stoked about about everything that's happening but yeah it's just uh it's an experiment that i feel super fortunate to be allowed to participate in do
you have any specific goals
um i fly to monaco but also if i don't make it to monaco that's you know that's obviously an enormous goal in itself um you know my my goals are more like to make this experiment work you know come out of it learning something i really want to learn from these amazing pilots you know i mean i how can i take advantage of Chrigel having to launch with me at least once and on the guys you know i mean i'll be i have no doubt that i will be to the top of the geisberg at the same time as as Chrigel and some of the best pilots in the world in my opinion they have to launch with me what can i do my goal is to make the best out of that moment you know see how far i can carry it on so yeah to learn to um another goal for sure is just to
yeah it's very non-attainment centric for me it's like my goal is to see if i can know myself better and like use myself to the best of my own ability um but uh but as far as like you know placing like or number of kilometers down the course line it doesn't make sense to me to set those goals and if it does make sense i don't know how yeah
i don't i don't think it makes sense either is anything scary about it
um yeah like losing lift and not being able to get back in the lift when the rest of the people are in the lift that's scary losing the gaggle
um no i mean the hardest part of this whole endeavor for me is related to like leaving work during the busiest time of the year um which is you know obviously not xops related i think just being able to be over there everything involved is going to be really awesome hard challenging for sure but um yeah tell
me about the three layer theory of paragliding okay
this was about um i'm kind of interested for some reason in figuring out what other sports or experiences in my life are like paragliding and obviously no other sport is like paragliding besides maybe hang gliding but um so my so i've kind of come up with a three layer notion of what we are doing up there and if you kind of zoom all the way out like if you picture these layers like it's a funnel and the top biggest layer i think is most like a big game of chess because most of the time what we're doing the most important things we're doing are making decisions we're just taking step-by-step decision making and sometimes you wander into the middle of a chess game it's not like you're playing the chess game from the beginning sometimes you're playing the chess game all the way from the beginning if conditions stay the same and um and you're in the same terrain etc but really what we're doing is we're making decisions and we're making decisions we're doing is just looking at a chess board and making the best move to our ability um the second layer is for me it's i grew up sailing um racing dinghies like small boats lasers and 420s and i think it's very very similar to a lot of the the scale of strategy um in small boat racing
a lot of times those races will last an hour two three hours or so it depends on the conditions very similar to a comp and paragliding you're making you're going through different conditions especially involving the wind and the winds are changing and you're reading weather and uh and basically kind of breaking your those bigger decisions into actually you know physically being attached to them you're you're still actually moving that chess piece is part of the sport um you know going into the thermal is an active thing even after you've decided to do it and then on the kind of smallest scale level i think it's a lot like um kind of like dynamic sort of flow sports like surfing or downhill skiing or boating um where every moment we are at speed not very fast speeds obviously compared to other things that people race but um we're at speed actively handling our craft and um
you know it's kind of like surfing is interesting because you're the wave itself that you're surfing down is also moving and that's very similar to paragliding and paragliding we're we're climbing mountains of air and then descending off the other side except the entire mountain is moving the entire time you know so it's it's very it's obviously a very active thing um so yeah those are kind of that's kind of my my entire sort of three layer way of doing things but i think it's kind of of wrapping my head around what paragliding is as a sport compared to my other experiences in life.
Why do you think you were drawn to it in 2013? Was this something you'd wanted to do? And how old were you then? Were you late 20s?
Yeah, I was like mid 20s.
Well, so I actually totally forgotten about this until like a year or so into paragliding, but I actually took a tandem flight when I was like 19 or something. I was traveling through South America and I was alone and just doing stuff. And I was in Ecuador and this guy was, you know, I saw a sign for paragliding. I was like, that sounds cool. Signed up for it. Did it. Was like, God, I'm never going to do that again. That was terrifying.
You know, I was just like motion sick the whole time and like spinning around in circles and like G-forces. Yeah. Like frail little body. And I was just like, no, I'm good. Never again. And I had totally forgotten about that, like until a few years into actually learning how to paraglide many years later. But to answer your question, I, yeah, I do remember the moment when I was like, I should paraglide. And I was riding the lift on Baldy. I was coaching ski racing and at the time, and I just looked up and saw, who knows, maybe you, maybe Carell, somebody flying off Baldy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was probably a speed wing guy. I don't, I don't even remember, you know, I wasn't able to recognize what was what then. And just thinking, I could never do that.
And then by the end of the trailer ride, I was like, I could totally do that. And I, and I think it was that day I called up Mike Pfau, who I knew from other circumstances and, and got the ball rolling.
Huh. Nature's due.
You've got this really cool, you've got this really cool little, it's not a quote, but it's this. Entry called the body's tide. Tell me about the body's tide.
Oh, yeah. The body's tide is sort of my way of feeling good about the annoying way that particularly in physical training, but also very relevant, I think, to learning things with our mind. The way that we, we accelerate, the way that we plateau, the way that we regress, the way that we overreach. Sometimes that has negative consequences. And also the way that we sort of have a, an efficient and effective learning progression, if we can find that right curve. But the tide is sort of, especially in training for like the X-peer and the X-helps, I've noticed sometimes I feel like king of the world and, you know, I've never lifted more weight or whatever, or never just cruised Baldy twice and felt like a king that I could keep doing it all day.
And then other times I feel like I'm never even going to be able to make it up Baldy, you know, and that's just the nature of training. And that's kind of when I, I just, it was trying to kind of check in and, and be curious about how that works. Because of course, all of this, you know, I've, I've been an athlete, I guess, most of my life through ski racing and some other things, but these, this is the first, this last couple of years with the X-peer and running and the X-helps is the first time I've really trained for real training. That was what I'd call it for like endurance. Sort of activities. So just kind of grappling how our bodies react to stress, but it's also,
it's also, I want to say related to the mind, but that's too kind of distant, like the body and the mind, I think are, are more than just connected. It's happening at the same time. And we, as I learn, I noticed that, you know, in paragliding, like I know when I, especially when I'm learning new things and maybe earlier in my learning progress, I've realized times when I've overreached. And, and maybe that's caused like an increase of fear or doubt or, or like hyper attainment awareness, which is bad. And, and how that kind of sets you back. And there is, you gotta go slow to go fast. You have to kind of take it easy and, and just notice when you're progressing and, and tune in with your body's tide and not, and know that it happens rather than just, you know, just kind of falling prey to it.
Do you have like mantras or things that you kind of come back to that you've identified either through the journal or through flying that you're, you're trying to grapple with or fix before the race? Do you have, do you have like things like My
mantra for the X-Alps is it for everything else to achieve anything that's, that's difficult. It takes baby steps, but for achieving the X-Alps takes baby step ups.
That's my, that's my motto for the race. Yeah. But I don't know about in real life. Yeah. Going deep and personal here, but my personal mantra, which is kind of why I titled my partly why I titled my, my blog the higher you get, but with an empty mind, the higher you get, because I think particularly in paragliding, like we tend to just fill our brains with so much information and it's overwhelming. And most of the time we have too much in there to concentrate on, you know what I mean? Anybody, anybody who's flown paragliders for a while can just sit down and talk about it. And you can really talk about paragliding for days on end, you know, like there's so much in our brains. The big task for me is just kind of stepping that back, scaling it back and trying to have an empty mind and just kind of check in with the relevant things when, when they're relevant.
And, uh, and that lets you go higher.
What mental training have you done in the last seven months?
well uh more meditation than i've ever done in my life which i think is really important i can't really get too into that and explain why because i don't know why but that's a cool path and um and i think really good for training i've noticed i've noticed that like just general mindfulness is very helpful for like the long the hardest parts of the physical training um you know like the long excruciatingly boring road walks um it's it's it makes it easier to figure out what is excruciating why is that happening um but yeah i guess that kind of pertains mostly to the to the physical training rather than the flight well also also to the flying yeah
that that's pretty mental yeah yeah i think the long hikes on the road are about as mental as it gets yeah
yeah um you know it's also just general mindfulness is so helpful for me because like i realized for instance going back to that nevada flight i believe i could have kept flying i i know that when i landed i didn't want to be on the ground i was obviously super stoked about that flight but you always want to keep going further but also somewhere deep down below what you're aware of at times at least for me i think that there's a switch that's like i don't want to be in the air anymore and being aware of that is the only way to flip that switch you back on if you know what i mean um i think that like the mental endurance we have in the air once you for me it's like when i hit five or six hours i have to be very aware of like
what i truly what my nervous system is telling me and power through that sometimes ideally have
you found any tricks for that have you found any or or any you know like uh from for me a big part of it was just food yeah water you know like i yeah for sure you feel so okay that you forget to eat and then i'd land and realize i was just out of my head you know i mean i was starving four hours ago and just was kept alive by adrenaline yeah
forcing myself to eat just you know in the air and also just in life is important but yeah mostly in the air
um well i i don't know yeah so there's the food and the nutrition part that definitely makes it harder for your nervous nervous system to keep going there are two other things that i've tried kind of touching in on in in my own mind when i'm flying one of those is making fewer decisions i think that we get tired if we make too many decisions if we're like climbing this awesome thermal and it's and it's going and going and going and we're thinking about the next moves i've actually tried experimenting with like not making those decisions just observing because i think we i think every time we make a decision we're using energy and i don't think that we're using energy when we're just observing there's looking at the sky every time you go around take a look at the cloud go around again take another look at the cloud and let your mind rest and just you know don't exert yourself everything's good you're going up it's a great thermal
and then when we get to the top and we have all the data the observations that i need is when i try and make my decision um obviously in some situations you have to think more than just the last turn to decide where you're going other times you hit the thermal and you already know what you're going to do when you get to the top of the thermal so don't think about it at all don't make that decision 25 times in your head just like manically making that decision i think it makes us tired throughout the day
yeah i mean the brain burns burns the most energy doesn't it
totally so
i have this problem that my best biggest flights obviously many of my best flights have distance like all of ours you know we i mean i had a evening soaring session that day after we bombed out the other day it was just as magical as any flight i've ever done we have
personal best and personal longest right
um but my you know my my memorable big ones like the big flight i did in 2015 that moved me up from you know i jumped a lot of people that day i was totally alone and took a completely my completely my own line you know my record here all those years ago there's nobody with me um you know i i recognize in comps like you just cannot leave the gaggle it's so risky to go do stuff on your own you've got you know it's but that's a different ball game like how if you how do you wrestle with that because to me it's it's almost kind of like wrestling with the demon it's just like when i'm when i'm up there on my on my own it's so much easier to make less decisions you know it's easier to just go just to do it get in the flow
but you know even when you and i are flying the other day i'm second guessing everything i'm doing he's on a better line i'm i'm not climbing as well i'm over here why did i go over here he went over there i went i should be over there you know it's it you start just like it's harder to go with your own intuition you have some good thoughts about intuition i
guess to answer your question there are kind of two things that come to mind one i consider myself a complete comp newbie so i don't know the best way to do it i don't know the best way to do it i don't know the best way to do it to balance um you know just staying right on the guy that's next to you and you know the 10 other pilots that are next to you in the gaggle or um taking your own line and taking those risks um obviously some sportive risk is is necessary to achieve that feeling of like personal bestness you know accomplishment but to answer your question the way i wrestle with that is i just try and take the middle way just like be aware of yes part of me is taking the middle way and telling me to go on this line and obviously the conservative move is to stay with these 10 other pilots who are on this line um i don't have an answer though as far as making that decision i think when
i'm in that situation i try and think about task relevance um like what are things what is the data that i have that is relevant to the task at hand and the task at hand in the situation you're describing is be further ahead than other people in an hour and you know intuition is tricky because it's so attached to emotion and a lot of times emotion is not a task relevant piece of data fear for instance um ambition eagerness like attainment particularly uh i think those are attached to intuition but in a bad way and we have to be aware of at least for me i have to be aware of um when those task irrelevant pieces of data are too prominent in my decision making compared to things like observing the day
like pattern recall from like previously in that flight as well as previous experience in the air over the course of my life um it's all very complicated yeah obviously yeah yeah yeah we
and you were saying again before we started recording like if you have and you you wrote about this in your journal that what what's the quote um the crutches of enthusiasm oh can you pull that one up or do you want me to find it i
don't have i'm not it's not right in front of me but i do um remember it i just i feel like i just feel like in this extremely complicated sport with so many amazing grandmasters i'm just kind of hobbling along on the crutches of enthusiasm that's that's it that's all i can do
that's great you had this great experience in via this year we were down there at the sky race together and uh you know you you were in the sky race and you were in the sky race and you were you weren't on a comp wing you weren't on a CCC glider um i i saw you know in your writing because you did a you did a write-up of every day there was a lot of this crutches of enthusiasm you know like like you were riding on on you know like wait a minute this is awesome and yet man am i even learning anything and you were kind of like bouncing
around uh yeah it's weird the whole like anytime you go into a paragliding competition at least for me it's like there's so much frustration and confusion involved but that's how we learn is like through that dissonance and i was just really stoked i don't know that's all just having a good time and flying alone like yeah it would be great if i could have actually slowed down and flown with people who are flying at the end of the day in gaggles much further than i was but i was also i don't know it was weird i the xc sky race was a nice environment to just be flying solo when i wanted to i was able one thing i was really happy about was i was i used the xc sky race as an environment to test what we were just talking about about just going with intuition you know and just going where where i felt was right and just and being totally punished when that was wrong as i will do to me complicated area but direct feedback you know it's although i wasn't on a CCC wing that's not my progression right now i'm not i consider myself barely an intermediate really in this sport and being on a CCC wing will you know at some point i see myself stepping up to to a fast two-liner but i was just stoked to be on the first d wing i've ever flown on and to be happy about it you know and to figure it out and and have a great glide rate never
exclude continuations that were wrong before a condition changed describe that okay
yeah um i think about that one a lot because i think a mistake i make often is i'll launch baldy i'll or wherever i'll fly for an hour or two and then often i feel like after a couple hours of a cross country flight which hopefully is is kind of towards the beginning still of a long day um things usually change like rarely will conditions stay the same for more than a couple hours in you know just kind of vaguely speaking um or usually after a couple hours you have entered into an area unless you're doing a triangle um that is working differently than where you started and i tend to i've made the mistake in the past of collecting all this data in my mind and observations and um and learning from the day you know patterns of the day and and there's like velcroing to it and that ending up like using that as you know the first hour or two of the flight as the source for answers of what i need to do in the next part of the flight so i guess what that quote means is that i'm not to me is things are going to change in almost any cross country paragliding flight don't make the mistake of only using what you what has worked so far in that flight you have to be nimble i
have to be nimble i like that how does someone who has not flown in the alps um you did the x period last year i mean you hadn't flown in the pyrenees either so you that must be a that that had to be a pattern now yeah yeah but it also had to have been
a pattern yeah yeah but it also had to and
confidence building because you did really well there but how do you how do you prepare because when i rewind and i go back to 2015 that was one of the things i wasn't very stressed about because i'd flown a lot in the alps nothing like the europeans but um tell me about that side of the preparation the the logistical side because i think a lot of listeners are obviously not going to do the X-Alps but a lot of people want to know what you need to know to go to the alps and have fun yeah
i guess um i don't really know i mean what i've what i'm doing is um you know essentially essentially
to bolster my absolute inexperience in the alps i'm just um memorizing maps in my own way um and uh but kind of in a zoomed out way you know looking at regions rather than like specific areas too much um i know that a huge disadvantage for me will be not knowing the complex winds of the valleys of the alps and the alps that's just there's no way i can take on that task of learning that well enough to make it work even closer i've given up on that my strategy is different it's a little bit more um it's a little bit more zoomed out and just trusting that rob and i will be able to figure out and enjoy the process of figuring out what to do when we come to each kind of different complex scenario as far as like the flying is concerned
have any i asked you about what scares you the most but i want to i want to go back there maybe in a different from a different viewpoint um maybe maybe this isn't the same because you did the experience you kind of know but when i went into 2015 i like my biggest fear was i was able to kind of shelve the physical side because i had ben and he was like if you do the work you're going to be okay i'm gonna i'm gonna have you prepared for this because i was really worried about that beforehand with my knees and my history of skiing and stuff so my knees were trashed but um i just had no idea like am i going to be eliminated first or am i going to be good yeah i
had no idea does that scare you um yes but not in the not in like the form of like i'm getting eliminated dun dun dun like race is over the the fear for me is that i will have missed out on the experience of getting to go further into the alps in the race environment you know um yeah
but that's easy to fix you just dave turner you just keep going you don't have to stop
yeah totally um yeah i don't know um yes i mean doing poorly is a fear um but not a not a big one i i don't have a lot of fears about the x helps i have
um mostly excitement you know it's weird most of my fears are about uh leaving like my business is way more stressful going to the going to the alps to fly my paraglider for three weeks right in the meat of the season of yeah that you know which is what my livelihood is is far more stressful than anything in the x helps maybe it shouldn't be maybe there are things that i'm not that i'm overlooking about the x helps that i should be more concerned about but i think i've thought about it all
i'm gonna ask you we're gonna finish on these uh i've been doing this the last couple of weeks and i'm gonna ask you if you have any questions about the x helps shows they're called they're like well sam harris called they're not mine but i've i've tweaked them for pilots they're kind of like rapid fire questions and but that doesn't mean you have to answer them fast okay or short you can you know give us a story if you want but i think these i'd just like to ask you these i think they'll be fun if you had one piece of advice for someone to succeed as a pilot what would it be oh
god that's a broad question um i'm assuming you're talking about someone who's just learning no just in general yeah um and
of course success is defined
by everybody independently but probably focusing on for me based on my experience the way i answer that question is focusing on like knowing how to use your own your own tools like knowing yourself figuring out what your weapon is you know and by weapon i don't mean like just what you're really good at also like you know what makes you enjoy flying because that's you can't you absolutely cannot in this sport unless you're enjoying the progression so if there's something that's like blocking that like fear that you might not even know about you know you might just be kind of totally blocking it out it's still inhibiting you um looking inside looking inside of yourself that's my answer this
isn't on my card here as a question but how do you view fear oh
i have a very complicated complex way of viewing fear um just because i don't know what it is exactly and so i i have a lot of theories about it but particularly related to paragliding i think that there are a number of layers of fear i think that we so first of all before you launch there is a relevant fear like we have relevant fear when we look at the forecast and the conditions and we decide to launch or not to launch that's that's a helpful fear like okay if i launch in these conditions i might die good fear almost all of the fear that we experience after that point in the air i think is pretty irrelevant
and it makes sense that we have it because we're human beings and we're strapping ourselves into ultra light climbing harnesses and tying it with 0.8 millimeter lines to nylon and going to 18,000 feet stop it it's just too ridiculous i mean it makes sense we'd have fear and so yes i i think i think we have kind of like for me i've experienced like an umbrella diffused umbrella of agoraphobia just like fear of helplessness and like complete removal which is also something i enjoy about paragliding but it's also there's a fear involved there and i think probably a lot of people experience that like basic human fear of being out on the prairie with the lions you know um we have the same thing in the air we're exposed to conditions that our nervous system for hundreds of thousands of years if you believe in that kind of thing like science is saying you're
gonna die you know you're gonna get eaten by a lion if you don't find a tree so we have to deal with that and i think we're super exposed to it when we're flying even though we don't know it and i i have like kind of tried to be aware of that in my mind so that i can set it aside like usually usually like championing fear is just about for me like recognizing it and being like oh that's what it is oh oh that's fear instead of just like experiencing the byproducts of it the other kind of aspects of fear for me in the air because paragliding can get quite intense at times and um you know it's very active like we're being you know if you if you go to a kid and you just start shaking them they're going to experience fear and that's basically what we're doing up there we're just getting tossed around by invisible
air you know so that physically comes into contact with our nervous system um so just being aware of that like getting rocked around can result in fear and that's okay like you know i don't i've never felt like oh i'm feeling i'm feeling fear i should not be feeling that you know you have to just be aware that like okay that's what's happening and it's irrelevant to the decision i need to make at the top of this thermal and then i also think that there are some kind of like unexplained fears that we have that we hold inside of our body for me like i notice in my lower back and my My breath is a place where I hold a lot of fear. And as soon as I can be aware of that and just like breathe and just like relax my lower back, I'm able to release a lot of it.
Yeah, so that's kind of basically my thoughts about fear that I try to, you know, think about in the air or at least just be aware of so that I can put it aside and not have it like take up a bunch of my energy or make the experience unpleasant. Because once you're aware of like what it is you're experiencing, usually it's not a problem anymore. It's just the problem is like experiencing it and not being aware of it or experiencing it, being aware of it and being like, no, this isn't happening. I'm not scared. That doesn't help either.
Somebody needs to do a study on your lion analogy, you know, that we can wander around aimlessly most of the time and not be pounced upon by some critter that forever and ever and ever. Until pretty recent history would have. It killed us. You know, that's what kept us alive is our flight or fight, fight response.
Maybe that's the answer that we're all trying to figure out. Maybe that's why we do this is we don't have anybody trying to kill us all the time. So it's, you know, part of the power process is
what you're talking about.
Biological. Yeah.
Yeah. Needing something to give us a sense of power. Normally that would be just staying alive in a hostile environment. We don't have that right now. So we make up these. Ridiculous things like going to 18,000 feet and then coming down, you know, and like that does, I think, I think that's part of the kind of psychological health part that we started with. Yeah. I agree with you.
You talked about meditation. We've talked about your journal, but I want to tap into this a little bit more. What is the most important non-flying thing you can do to become a better pilot?
Most important non-flying thing I think is just physical health, like eating well and having. Having and trying your hardest to increase your aerobic fitness.
It's I've noticed it just, you know, I would never have like thought about that before training for the X-peer and the X-Alps, but it's so much easier to to do everything in life if you just put a little bit of effort into being a little healthier and having and just being able to. I mean, your brain uses so much energy if you can just make your body a little bit more efficient. You're going to have save up, save that energy for other things. So, yeah, just being healthy.
I think it's also underappreciated that being really fit makes you a lot more resilient. If you're really fit and you hit hard, that might be, you know, the difference between being paralyzed. Well, let's take Ben as an example. A year ago, he hit the ground really hard. And as I was running up to him, I was like. This might be a corpse. And he broke his back pretty badly. But the surgeon said if he hadn't been so fit, he'd be in a wheelchair for sure. It was like, you know, so I think that that's a big part of it. You know, we're playing a pretty dicey game at times. And if you're fit, you might be. You can bounce.
Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I think we should not get fit to plan on like being able to survive something that has gone terribly wrong. But I do think that.
But yeah, just being more physically resilient in general, yeah, translates over to having more energy, being better, having more brain space to make decisions if the least amount of physical impact can affect you.
This question is kind of tricky, so take some time if you need it. What negative experience in your life, one that you would not want to repeat, has most profoundly changed you for the better?
What negative thing? It has to be negative.
Yeah. What bad, negative? What's something – what's an experience that you wouldn't want to repeat but when you look back has had the most profoundly good?
I've been going kind of deep and personal on this whole thing, so I'll just keep that up and answer it completely honestly. Probably my parents getting divorced when I was like 15 allowed me to have a – somehow opened the door to like an enormous amount of autonomy for me. I wouldn't want that to happen again. I wouldn't want that to happen again, mostly for their sake. But yeah.
Divorces. Yeah. Too personal? Too much of a bummer, guys? Sorry.
No, not at all. No, not at all. Unfortunately, a lot of people have been through divorce. OK.
Final question and this is not related to paragliding. If you could solve one thing, what would it be?
OK. If I could solve one thing in the world, it would be – since there are too many problems. With the world right now, one thing isn't going to affect anything, so I would just choose to completely accelerate the inevitable downfall of planet Earth and mankind to a point where it can start over again.
If you gave me like 200 things that I could do, then maybe I'd start like trying to fix things and like, oh, like stop litter and like, you know, like take away the big plastic floating island. But. But there are just too many. So just, yeah, accelerate the inevitable.
Dark, but it ties into our Nevada trip. So I like it. I like it. Willie, that was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Of course, I can't wait to race with you and have an adventure with you in the Alps. It's going to be so fun. It's just always so fun training with you and flying with you and getting your very unique perspectives. Your blog's terrific. I know that's private, but maybe I can talk you into making that public for a little while while the people – or not. It doesn't matter. But thank you for sharing that with me. That was really special and precious, and it makes me want to journal more. Thank
you, Gavin.
Appreciate it. If
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