Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. These are still coming to you from on the road. I'm still out in Santa Barbara training. I was down in Marshall with Reavis and Ben for a few days. Got some great flying and a lot of Red Bull logistics stuff sorted out, so that was fantastic. Back up in Santa Barbara. I'll be here for another couple days. I'm actually right in the middle of a three-day simulation, but I just wanted to bang out this intro so we could still get a show up on time. Great show for you today with Travis Burke. A lot of you, I'm sure, are familiar with that name. I started following him a few years ago on Instagram, now along with almost a million people. He's got 800 and something thousand followers, so he wouldn't like this term, but he's one of these people referred to as an influencer and is an athlete and photographer, a really talented photographer and shoots surf.
And skate and climbing and all kinds of sports, kind of, I guess, more on the extreme end of things, but recently got into flying, and I always think it's fun to talk to folks who are really just getting into it and see what their perspective is. He and his good friend who manages his business, David Hatfield, drove up here from San Diego, and we had a really nice XC flight here in Santa Barbara together, and then we sat down and had a talk. In some ways, I feel like this was kind of a missed opportunity because we had this really interesting talk on the way up to launch just about the pros and cons of social media. And as I've alluded to in the last few episodes, I really feel like Facebook has pretty much a monopoly on social media, owning Instagram and WhatsApp, and clearly played a major factor in our last election.
And anyway, I think the business model for these companies that facilitate data transaction, it's free to the user, but that's how they make their money is a really flawed and toxic business model. You name it, Google, Amazon. Anyway, that's not my job, and that's not what we talk about here on the show, but I do think that world is pretty fascinating. And I wanted to get into, because I have quite a strangled relationship with that, and I imagine many of you do, with the addiction side of it and just the sponsorship side and how to be authentic and still use it, or should we not use it at all.
And he and I had a pretty good talk about that, and then we didn't really talk about it. I just felt like it was kind of complicated to talk about in the actual show and didn't think you would be interested in it. But then I realized when we were done that if I'm interested in it, probably you all or many of you. You all are as well. So I apologize for that. That is kind of a missed opportunity. The other thing that we decided actively to not talk about and then also thought, man, maybe we should have, he was given a wing by Ozone right up front very early on. Today, when we recorded this, the day we had our XC flight from here in Santa Barbara was literally his first XC. Travis has about 100 hours, but most of those are ridge soaring.
At Torrey Pines, which I've told some other people and folks, a lot of people would say, oh, those kind of hours don't even really count, which is probably an interesting thing to discuss. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that and weigh in on that. Certainly, launching and landing is always good hours, and it doesn't matter where you get them. But anyway, what I'm trying to say is a very, very novice pilot just shot a big commercial with Toyota that featured paragliding. And so that was another thing that we didn't really get into because I thought, gosh, man, if people find out that you're getting wings and you're just learning how to fly, that's probably going to infuriate people. But, you know, like the Superfinal just wrapped up, and I would imagine there's only a couple of the top maybe 30 pilots down there at the Superfinal, like the best pilots in the world that are actually getting wings for free.
You know, there might be the homie discount. Or the team pilot discount, that kind of thing. But, you know, it's folks like Travis that have a ton of reach and that can get it and really, in my opinion, should because they can bring a whole new audience to our sport and grow the sport. And so it was pretty proactive for Ozone to see that. And I also get a ton of questions all the time from people going, hey, how do I get, you know, can you introduce me to so-and-so and how do I get sponsored? And my usual response is like, hey, man. Let's get a better job and buy the gear. It's a lot of work. And it's, you know, when I introduce folks like that, it's, you know, it's kind of very rarely a win-win. You know, the chances for under-livery are through the roof.
You know, unless you're really, that's what you do, like Travis does. If you're a content provider, then you know how to do that. If you don't, it's pretty tough. It's pretty hard to make, you know, getting a free wing and covering that 3,500 euros. In terms of content and providing that ROI back to a company is pretty hard to do. So anyway, that was another subject we didn't really discuss. And again, I apologize for that. I do feel like this was kind of a missed opportunity. But we did cover a lot of ground. Not a lot of it flying, but mostly, you know, the business side and the photo side. And, you know, he's had a very interesting arc to his business, which I thoroughly enjoyed. So I think you will as well.
Before we get to the show, a couple little bits of housekeeping. One is I'm a little sensitive to, you know, I try to get guests that are representative from all over the world. I haven't been able to do that since I've been on the road. I've got a ton of great ones lined up. Wolfgang Seiss, The Hang Gliding Show, and Marcela, who just broke the female distance record down in Brazil. And Maxime Bellemin, who just released his new book, Performance Flying. And I've actually got a review of that. And the next Cross Country Magazine. So some great interviews coming up. I just have not had the Internet to be able to do those as I typically do on Skype. So I've had to find people more locally to do these. And those happen to be Americans, like with the last show with Rob Sporrer. We've got another show coming up with J.K.
Nichols about TEM. He's an airline pilot who's, you know, that threatened air management that they use flying airplanes is super relevant. And I think pretty interesting to free flight. So bear with us. I'm sorry we haven't had that kind of typical mix we usually do. But that's just been logistically tough with me being on the road. The other thing I just want to bring up, some of the advice in the Rob Sporrer show, which I totally agree with. I got some feedback from some listeners that, you know, felt like the advice about trees are always your friend. And the advice about reserves maybe needed to be expanded on a little. But, you know, maybe we came across in the podcast that they were infallible.
I don't really think we came across that way. But, you know, certainly those two things are, you know, for the most part, work really well. Trees typically are your friend. And reserves do work, just period. But, of course, they aren't infallible. And these guys reached out and had pretty serious accidents, one from a reserve, another one from a tree. Of course. Of course that happens. But I still think the messaging is totally accurate. You know, that you make a low rash, really quick turn low to the ground to not hit a tree, your chances of getting really hurt by spinning the glider or something go way up. I'd rather just, you know, for the most part, you can just fly into that tree and have much better odds. And then the other thing is just reserves, just hands down, period.
They are actually pretty infallible. Of course, there are, you know. You know, your risks are still, you know, it's free flight. You still have the risk of something going wrong. But for the most part, they work really well. And will at least, you know, instead of death or a broken back, you know, you're looking at an ankle or something else. So, anyway, but I did, I appreciated that feedback. They're absolutely correct. They're not infallible. And, you know, good things to discuss. I think that's it with the housekeeping. I am right now transitioning us over from. Patreon, as I've said in the last couple of shows, to our own subscription service. So, that will be live here any day. But as I've said before, just stick where you are for right now until we get that all solidified and tested and making it work.
So, we're getting close. And, yep. Also, the X-Alps is getting close. We're closing down here quite a bit less than three months to go. So, stay tuned for more exciting content coming out of that whole crazy madness. Please enjoy this show for now with Travis Burt. Cheers.
Travis, thanks for coming on the Mayhem. It was really cool having a flight with you today. That was really neat with David. And it's good to see you guys up here in Santa Barbara. And always special for me to be able to do, you know, quote, unquote, live show. Have you sitting here in the glamping mobile. But, welcome.
Yeah, thank you. Super stoked to be out here. We had a crazy flight. My first kind of cross country. So, that was exciting. And, yeah, stoked to be here.
Yeah, that was special to share the sky with you knowing you hadn't really gone XC. So, that was really fun. I thought we'd start with, you know, you and I were talking today after our first flight about some of the things that kind of took you down this road. But, pretend you're at a party and you're introducing yourself. How do you describe yourself to somebody that doesn't know, like, what you do and who you are?
Yeah, I guess I would say I'm a photographer, athlete, and content creator. Okay.
And, does the, is the new terminology is influencer? Do you kind of, would that, you wouldn't say that at a party, I think. But, is that kind of the, is that how that works?
I don't typically like to use that myself. But, it is a term that I think would describe what I do pretty well, yeah. But, I just try and approach it different. I'm a photographer by trade. So, it just so happened to have built an audience on social media.
And, how did, how did that all happen? Was your background in photography? Did you study it in school? Or, how did you get into this?
Yeah, I guess I kind of started in the, I grew up in San Diego. I grew up in the surf and skate industry, skateboarding. And, just had a background. I always loved to try different sports, a little bit of everything. So, mountain biking and rock climbing and riding a unicycle. Almost anything that kind of just pushed me, kind of mentally and physically. After high school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted something creative, hands-on. And, hadn't found that yet. So, I didn't go straight into college. And, started working at different warehouses for surfing and skateboarding. And, doing a little bit of everything. Bagging groceries at grocery stores. Being a busboy at restaurants.
Even, one of my more classic jobs was a fire safety job. And, through the night, we would go up there. Up into these restaurants after they shut down the kitchen. And, actually crawl up into the grease traps and the ventilation systems. It was still super hot from the stoves and ovens being on all day. And, we would just scrape the grease out of the insides of these things with cockroaches and rats. And, it gets in your hair. And, we're spraying chemicals to try and get the grease, kind of break down the grease. And, you're just inhaling that stuff. And, we do that from about 9 o'clock at night till 6 in the morning. And, then we'd go. Me and my buddy would jump in the water, do a quick surf to try and get the grease off. And, I'd go to school.
And, I was doing a little bit of random community college stuff at the time. But, it wasn't until my parents were actually hiking the Pacific Crest Trail from the border of Mexico all the way up to Canada. They were in their 50s and 60s. And, I didn't think they'd really get very far. But, I told them if they made it to Yosemite National Park, I'd come up and visit them. They had a decent amount of experience backpacking. But, that's a gnarly hike for anybody. So, a lot of people that tried are in their mid-20s, just out of college. What's the
full distance on that? Because, they did the full thing, right? They started at the border? Yeah. I don't remember.
It's a couple thousand miles. Yeah. They ended up completing it. And, it took just over five and a half months. Wow. Full time, every single day. Like, they put in about, I think they average 18 miles a day. Wow. But, 40-pound packs. Good for them. All different types of terrain. You could imagine deserts and snow. And, once you get up, yeah, into Oregon, it's just wet and rainy and miserable. And, yeah, I gained a lot more respect for them after that. Was there,
I know this is about you, but was there, what was their background? Were they hikers? Were they, you know, outdoorsy people? Or, is this just on a whim? Or, did they, you know, they're a little more prepared than that?
Yeah, definitely outdoorsy. We grew up camping. We had a little tent trailer. And, we do, you know, fishing with my dad and different trips since as long as I could remember. So, always loved the outdoors. They skied. That's how they actually met, was skiing. And, so, always outdoorsy people. And, basically, their retirement trip for themselves was the Pacific Crest Trail. Cool. So, they planned it for quite a few years. They did the John Muir Trail as, like, training and successfully did that. So, they had some warm-up. They had about four years of planning before they actually did it. So, it wasn't just out of nowhere. But, at the same time, there's still so many variables that come into play with something like that.
That, yeah, it was impressive. Was
it really good for them? It was.
I mean,
as a couple. And, you know, I mean, obviously, they've been together a long time. But...
Yeah, I think they say, I think with any long-distance backpacking trip, or even road trip, I spent four years in a van traveling around. But, any relationship where you're with somebody 24-7 stuck in these tiny confined spaces, you go through the highs and lows and can't really get away from each other even if you want to, really tests you. So, I think for them and for most people who do something like that, it'll either, you'll come out stronger and kind of knowing that you're fully in it and compatible, or you'll come out and know that you're, it's not really working and kind of split from there. But for them, it all worked out. And, yeah, they do really well together. They do pretty much everything together. So, yeah, it was a great experience.
Probably, I think for them, an experience of a lifetime. So, yeah, it was really cool. But to get back to the story, I told them I'd meet them in Yosemite National Park, if they even made it that far. And after a couple weeks, they told me, you know, they're getting close. So, I decided, I was working all those random jobs, had some extra money, decided I'd buy some over-the-top camera. I had no idea how to use it, but it's like, oh, I'm going to Yosemite. I'll be Ansel Adams and take all these pretty pictures. And so, I packed up my truck. I had a little Toyota Tacoma with a camper shell and threw all my gear in there and decided to do a little solo road trip up to Yosemite. Spent time with them, hung out. And after that, kind of just stuck around Yosemite and hiked Half Dome and what I realized with photography is instead of just walking past a scene and acknowledging and being like, wow, this is really pretty, and then continuing on, it really made me stop and slow down and try and capture it.
So, I'd be with the new camera. I'd be like, how do I get the composition and the angle and the colors? And I really spent more time just absorbing it kind of in the moment and trying to capture that in the best way possible. And even just the little things. Like we had, I remember I was just by myself taking a break and I saw these ants kind of crawling across this log. Like, whoa, this is awesome. I got out my macro lens and I could see all the details. And I'm laying on this log just taking pictures of ants. And if I didn't have my camera, I wouldn't have even, you know, really looked at it or thought anything. Yeah. But, yeah, so it really made me just look at everything in a new way, a new perspective, and spend more time appreciating all of those little moments and trying to capture them. So, some people say that the camera is like a disconnect for them.
They're focused on settings and all these things and they're not present. But for me, I've always found that I feel like I'm more present and appreciate moments more and for longer periods of time with the camera. So, I would even go out at night on that first trip into the valley and have the moon coming over the valley and trying to capture that completely in the dark. I don't think I had a tripod. It was all blurry and out of focus. But I was just stoked to be out there and trying to capture it. And otherwise, I just would have been asleep in my tent and, you know, not really experiencing those beautiful moments. So, that was kind of the start of photography for me. I went back home and I was doing some community college classes, woodworking and graphic design and architectural, you know, classes.
And I kind of dropped all those and switched to photography and really hit it. I hit full speed from there and started assisting other photographers and going home. I didn't just want the base knowledge that the classes were giving me. I would do research and I'd go to libraries and I'd do all these, anything I could to get more information. And yeah, I just hit it full speed.
How long ago was this?
This was, yeah, sorry, my first trip to Yosemite was just over 10 years ago. Okay. That was my, I had no idea how to use a camera. So, I'd probably been in school a year and a half at this point, taking film classes and studio lighting classes and a couple of different things. Had built a portfolio and was getting decent at photography. Had, I think, even won a couple of awards at that point. I was submitting contests and different things. But, yeah, so there was a, he was the chief writer and editor for Surfer Magazine who was speaking to this journalism class and I wasn't taking any of those classes, but I figured if there was a way for me to be able to learn and understand from a journalism perspective what they're looking for because the writing and photos go hand in hand, how I can utilize that to take pictures that would connect the story better, then that would kind of give me a one-up in the industry and just figure out, you know, how to, how
to produce the right type of content for them to hopefully land a job. Uh, yeah. Yeah, so he, he was telling people how he had been a professional surfer and traveled the world to all these beautiful islands and crazy destinations that I had never even heard of. Then he was the, as a writer for Surfer Magazine, he'd get to go on all these trips and document everything and tell those stories. And I was just sitting there thinking, like, wow, this is literally the dream job. Like, I can't believe how incredible his life is. I had never really even left California. I was just so focused on surfing and skateboarding. And we didn't do any really big trips growing up. We drove to Texas a couple times, which is pretty much just flat the whole way, but hadn't seen much of the U.S., let alone the world.
And just hearing these stories was just mind-blowing. And I remember specifically he was like, if there is one trip that meant more to me than any other trip I've ever been on in my life, and I just felt like he was talking directly to me. I was kind of at this point where I was sick of my jobs. I wanted something different, more fulfilling, more in line with what I was passionate about. And I didn't really know what that was. And so he's sitting here saying, like, this is what meant more to me than anything I've ever done. And I was like, whatever he's about to say, like, this is my calling. This is what I have to do. And so I was just waiting for it. And he's like, out of everything, I did a solo road trip.
A
road trip
across the entire United States. And I was like, whoa, I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, all these crazy places. Every place in the world. And just a road trip across the U.S. And he talked about just how much of a personal experience that was. Just the different cultures and landscapes. And I was like, okay, that's it. Like, I got to do this road trip, you know? And so that really stuck with me. And he talked for quite a bit longer. And I ended up getting to chat with him afterwards. After, you know, all the other students had kind of tried to connect with him. And I was kind of the last one there. I had my laptop with my images. I started chatting with him, showing him my work. I did a lot of, like, they're called diptychs, where it's a portrait next to, like, an action shot of a surfer.
I think I even had some paragliders in there from Torrey Pines. And different things. And I was trying to relate to him and show him that I was telling a story with my images by the portrait. And then kind of what that person did. And after a while, he's skimming through. And I was like, wait a minute, are these your images? And I was like, yeah, that's what I do. I'm a photographer. And he was like, I got to get you into my office. And I was like, whoa. Like, I really didn't expect it to go anywhere. So sure enough, a week or two later, I'm in his office. And he ended up presenting. He's like, I've been in this industry a long time. And this was Grind TV, Grind Media, which at the time was, I think right now it's called the Enthusiast Network. But it's kind of the umbrella company for Surfer Magazine, Skateboarder, Canoe and Kayak.
All these outdoor sports that I was kind of obsessed with growing up. And I was just nervous being in the office. I'm like shaking. I'm like, I can't believe I'm in here. This is crazy. And he kind of sat me down and was like, I had a chance to look through your work. And I have this position that I never thought would ever exist. Because I've never seen somebody that really can produce the type of work that you're producing in such a broad spectrum. But I want to give you the opportunity to basically be the first ever staff photographer for the entire network and document everything. And I was just taken aback. I had no idea. That was like the biggest compliment I could ever get coming from somebody like that.
Amazing. And I was like, wow, that's amazing. And I took a second. And I was like, you remember that story you told about your favorite trip you've ever done was that road trip across the country? That really stuck with me. Is that something you would recommend somebody like myself doing? And he kind of sat there and was like, if you have the chance to do that, there's always an excuse. There's always a reason, whether it's a mortgage or your dog or a wife and kids. There's always a reason not to do something like that. He said, if you have that opportunity. You have to go for it and kind of just do it. So I sat there and I was like, okay, well, I have a huge respect. Thank you so much for this opportunity.
I'd like to maybe put that on hold and do this road trip and take off. And if the opportunity is still there. Yeah, I didn't even really know what I was doing at the time. Just kind of going with it. But it felt like the right thing to do. And I was like, before I settle into this. Before I settle into this position and job. I feel like this might be my only time. And I think he was taken back too. He was like, whoa, like, how's he turning this down? I think I was thinking the same thing after I said it. Like, I can't believe I just said that. But he sat there and he thought about it for a minute. And he didn't even consult anybody else. He just was like, okay. He's like, how about this? Take your road trip. Go wherever you want to go.
Do whatever you were going to do. He's like, I know you're going to be taking pictures and documenting the whole thing. He's like, I'll cover the cost of your entire road trip. And pay you X amount of dollars on top of that. If you just send us the images that you're shooting. Slam dunk. What? Oh, my God. It just blew me away. I was like, oh, let me think about that. I was just like, mind blown. So, that's really what started. That was my first actual job. That was in the career that I was passionate about. I was even doing real estate photography on the side. And had assisted wedding photographers. And all the product photography in studios. And all these different things. But I was like, wow. This is kind of the opportunity of a lifetime.
So, packed up my truck. I had all my gear. Climbing, you know, mountain biking, snowboarding, surfboarding, skateboarding, everything.
And kind of just hit the road. And was just traveling around doing landscape photography. Night photography. I'd go into these small towns and just see what type of sports or activities people are doing. Connect with the locals. Sometimes I'd link up with professionals. Sometimes it was just, you know, weekend warriors and documenting their adventures and the landscape. And, yeah, that kind of set me off in the path that really got me out here.
And was that, you know, so Instagram, that stuff's around then. That's 2009, 2010, I guess. Yeah.
Somewhere. I think I'm bad with years. But kind of in the beginning stages of Instagram. I think I had one at that point. I held off. I wasn't really super into it. And just like, oh, I don't want to. I'm not big on sharing what I'm doing. I don't know. So, most
of this was going back to this guy at Grind. Yep. Okay. And they
had like a blog. We had started a blog series with my content. And so, that was really what kind of kicked off my social media. I started posting. Now that I was out and about doing cool stuff all the time and road tripping, it was just a way for me to update even friends and family and just let them know where I was, what I was doing. And almost a portfolio, just me showing my best clips and photos.
But, yeah, some of the imagery and stories were actually, Grind had some awesome connections, obviously, in the industry. So, I remember there was multiple kind of blogs and stories that I did that got the front page of Yahoo News, which at the time was like the biggest search engine. And so, that was huge exposure for me. They actually also connected me with GoPro at the time. Like, hey, he's about to set off on this road trip. You know, can you hook him up with some cameras? And got me that initial connection, which ended up being a huge catalyst to the social media world and building a following. Because once I had gotten some content, sent them some photos, I think we talked about this earlier, but the very first image that GoPro actually shared on their Instagram page, still at that time they had, you know, a million plus followers.
I had maybe like a thousand or something. And it was a strong image and it engaged really well. It was their actually highest engaged image they had ever posted. And that sent, in 24 hours, I had gained I think 25,000 followers. Unbelievable, man. And so, that was...
Struck gold.
Yeah. That really was like, whoa, kind of a reality check of this is a great way to just get more exposure. It was my target audience, you know, everybody that was in the outdoor industry that wanted to, you know, see beautiful landscapes or kind of outdoor adventures. And so, that was between grind, getting stuff featured, on their website and a couple of magazine features, getting stuff on Yahoo News and a couple of other big outside sources like that. And starting to work with different brands. They connected me with Clif Bar and I got connected with Goal Zero. Ended up building long-term relationships with all those companies. And yeah, them featuring my work was a great way to just build that audience and that exposure and kind of allowed me to continue on the road trips.
I built those relationships to where I could get kind of an annual contract with them and shoot photos for them that they could use for marketing and PR and social media. And so, it was a great way. That was kind of at the beginning stages of, I guess, what you would now consider like an influencer. But I was able to utilize my social media page, which was continuing to slowly... grow and create content for them that they could use on their social media channels as well.
So, in the age of digital, because, you know, back in the day, it was all slide and film and, you know, it was an investment and you really had to... I'm not a photographer, so I'm saying all this from, you know, just my own life and learning from Jody and my partner for a long time, who's a photographer. But there's, you know... You really had to learn the craft. How do you... Obviously, it's what you have done. But, you know, these days, you know, the iPhone X is unbelievable. Like, you're competing with the world that has smartphones and they can do some pretty fun stuff. People can capture it because they're lucky or whatever. But, you know, how have you constantly had to kind of reinvent yourself or how do you stay ahead of that kind of wave?
Because it was a huge... Not everybody survived that transition. You know, there's always going to be the Ansel Adams out there that's just amazing. But, you know, how do you... I'm leading us to paragliding in a very roundabout way. But, you know, there's talent and there's hard work and there's both. You know, do you... When you look back, did you just have a natural eye or was it just a ton of hard work, both?
Yeah, those are all great questions. And I think to summarize, I don't think I was technically like naturally gifted with photography. I went through a lot of classes and we got critiqued. And my work at the beginning was definitely didn't stand out necessarily next to anybody else's. I think it was... And what a lot of the other sports had taught me, I was huge into skateboarding. That was my thing growing up and got to the point where I was doing 20 stair handrails and skating vert ramps and doing pretty big stuff. And I think that taught me... That didn't come naturally necessarily to me either. But what I learned from skateboarding, it kind of taught me a bunch of life lessons that I've used throughout my career now to approach different things and just life in general.
But my whole concept is with passion, dedication, and the belief that it's possible, you can really do anything that you want. And skateboarding taught me that just through hard work and doing things that my friends kind of laughed. And I was 12 years old and I showed them this magazine cover of this guy doing a 20 stair handrail. And I went out to my friends and I wasn't very good at skateboarding. I was like, I think I could do this. And it was like the biggest thing that had ever been done. And they're like, you're crazy, you're an idiot, you know, like whatever. And I was like, no, it seems logical. If you can do a five-step, you can do a 20 stair handrail, you can do a 20 stair, you just have to balance longer.
And they're like, no way, like you're crazy. But that same mentality, I ended up going, I think it was like eight years later, and doing the same trick on the same handrail. There's this cool backstory, but yeah, only a few people in the world had ever ended up. It's this handrail that is called El Toro. It's a famous 20 stair handrail and did the same trick on the same rail that I'd seen on the cover all those years ago. But yeah, so I think with just hard work and dedication and just really pushing, I think it's a lot of leaps of faith. And whether it was me setting out in my van with $81.10 to my name, or pursuing all these different sports, I do a lot of slacklining or highlining now, where you're walking a slackline across these crazy huge canyons.
And it's just pushing past those perceived boundaries, I think. And I guess, yeah, to circle back to your question, I think it's just a lot of hard work for me. There is a lot of competition out there now in the photographer realm and social media. Every kid with an iPhone or a GoPro or a mirrorless camera are using the exact same tools that I'm using. And so it could be seen as a scary position for me to be in. Like, wow, I really have to continue. I can't feel safe, I don't think. I have to continue to constantly evolve and push myself.
And that's part of what paragliding was to me, I think, too. I'd seen it years ago. I grew up in San Diego around Torrey Pines, and it always intrigued me. But just, A, it was something that always did intrigue me, and I was really excited to do it. But just finding new ways to approach landscapes and to get out there and push myself and meet up with other people and landscapes in a way that not many people in the world get to see them, and being able to hopefully bring my unique perspective into that and capture that, share it with a large audience. I'm all about a human element in the landscape. And for me, whether that's night photography or just national parks, but to have a human element in the landscape where you're both flying through the landscape, I mean, that's like the ultimate dream for me.
Don't
you think, like, with your background, the first big paragliding film I did, you know, we'd done quite a few smaller ones, but the first bigger budget film and more serious and red cameras and all that was 500 Miles to Nowhere with a very good friend of mine, Michael Paul Jones, who was a huge Hollywood shooter, and he was just fascinated by it, and he wanted to come out and shoot it.
But we had Jodi on that trip, and because she was a pilot, Mike was super astute in telling his right-hand man, this guy, Jeremy Cannon, who's super talented as well, but he was constantly going, Jeremy, just go where Jodi's going, because she's going to shoot the stills. She knows all the angles because she's a pilot. And do you think that that's really been a huge factor with you? I think of somebody like Jimmy Chin. The reason he knows how to shoot climbing so well is he's a pretty good climber. Definitely right. He knows where to be in the mountains. And he can get there. Yeah, most people
can't get there to get the shot. So yeah, that's a great point. And somebody like Jimmy Chin is someone who I've always looked up to. Because of that, they're not just sitting on the sidelines trying to capture something with a long lens of someone up on a wall or on these huge mountain routes or mountaineering in general. He's out there with them, and he's almost at the same level as some of these top athletes in the world. And I think that does give him that unique perspective and get the angles that nobody else can get, and really just understand the sport and how gnarly it is and be able to translate that through the imagery to tell the best story. If you don't know what it's like to be out there, how can you tell that story?
I think it's a lot harder, and there's more of a disconnect. So with everything that I shoot, I try to be competent in that sport or that activity to really understand it, to document it the right way. It builds a better connection and relationship between you and the other person. And for me, it's just really fun. I don't want to just be sitting around on the sidelines. I want to be out there whether I have a camera or not. So yeah, it all has tied together. And Jimmy's a person that I've looked up to for that and that respect a lot. But yeah, if I was just sitting on the ground shooting paragliding all day, there's not too many angles I could necessarily get. But if I can be up high thermally and looking down, or just vol biv and get to these crazy places that not many people get to otherwise, there's no trails, there's no roads, there's no access.
Even one of my goals is PPG for that reason as well. And just to be able to, especially sunrise and sunset, be able to get a motor and get up in the sky and approach these different landscapes just with, again, a unique perspective and a unique eye and even get out to some of those places that you really can't get to any other way.
So we'll get more into the flying, but I want to spend a few minutes on it. So I got to know you because of your van, you know, hashtag van life. I saw like the very original one, I think. And this is, I think, more or less when you started really blowing up on social media and stuff. But you had quite an adventure there, right? It was like four years living in a van. Yeah,
it was pretty cool. I had been working for Grind TV, Grind Media, and had just been living out of my truck. This was really before the whole van life movement. And there wasn't all the Sprinter vans and, you know, every other car you see out in Moab wasn't an adventure van. But I was out there, I was on, and it ended up being about a 100-day road trip in my truck all over the western U.S. And it was incredible. But I found that living out of my truck was a little challenging in some ways. I mean, editing photos, I was like laying down. I had a kind of a platform thing in the back of my truck. And I was trying to edit photos and I had all my gear and was just laying on my back with my computer on my stomach. I couldn't even sit up or trying to change my pants.
You know, like you're like laying down trying to put pants. It's just like not the best long-term goal, at least for me. So at one point I had seen this adventure van drive by. I think it was probably a sports mobile, like one of the original sports mobiles at the time. This lifted Ford, fully decked out with solar panels and off-road 4x4 and ladders. And I just saw it go by and I was like, whoa, that's what I need. Like if I'm going to do this full time, like it just has a little kitchen. I could stand up. And I was like, that's the dream right there. And so I put it on. I had started creating like a vision board and got really into that. And I looked online and I think I found sports mobiles and they're like, you know, $150,000 for the low end one.
And I was living paycheck to paycheck and honestly wasn't getting paid on time. And especially in the, you know, the surf and skate industry, you don't necessarily get paid all the time. It's just a bunch of bros and homies. And oh, sorry, dude, I forgot to send the check out. And yeah, there was times where I was struggling and didn't have enough money to buy groceries or pay for a shower, do laundry. And even if I wanted to give up and buy gas and drive home, I didn't even have enough money to pay for a full tank of gas. And so a $150,000 van was just totally out of the question. But for some reason, I still stuck it on my vision board. And I was like, I don't know how. I'm going to get this, but I just know that I'm going to make this happen.
And months went by, I was looking on Craigslist and used for $95,000. And I just there's just no way. And probably six months later, you know, I told my parents and a couple of friends like this is my dream. And my grandma called me who lives in Texas. And she was like, you know, I have this camper van just sitting in my driveway. If you want it, you can just have it. And I was like, what? Like, I totally didn't even remember. But I was like, wait a minute. Send me a picture. And I was thinking in my head, like, it's not going to be some adventure mobile like epic thing. And she sends me a couple of pictures. And it's a full on like 20 year old grandma camper van with like blue shag carpet on the inside.
Yeah, just like, you know, definitely not this lifted epic thing. But I thought about it for a little bit. And I was like, you know, I have a background. I'm pretty handy. I was like, there's not really any other way I can make this happen. So I was like, all right, I'll fly over to Texas. And I want to pick this up and hang out for a little bit and drive it back. And I feel like I could make it look a little more adventurous than it is. So I sold my Tacoma, took the money from that, which is about $8,000, I think, and put it all into the van and tore it down to the metal pretty much on the inside. And built out cabinets and flooring and really kind of customized it to what I thought it needed to be. I lifted it, put off road tires and ladders and solar panels, tried to emulate that first one that I had seen.
But I remember when I first drove it back to San Diego, it was that grandma camper van. And my friends are just like, what are you doing? Like, you've lost it. You know, like, this is just ridiculous. Again, because of van movement, it wasn't really a thing necessarily. And it was just this, like, beat up, you know, weird looking van. And they're like, oh, it looks like a creeper mobile, you know. And nobody really saw the vision. But I was like, just wait. Like, I'm going to fix it up. It's going to be awesome. And sure enough, yeah, a couple months later, I set off the night before my birthday with $81.10 to my name. And again, it was one of those, like, leap of faith moments where I knew if I stayed in San Diego, I wouldn't be able to produce content and get the imagery that I needed.
So I needed to be on the road. And I was still working with Grind. But they were, as I said, not paying the best all the time. I was just barely getting by. But I was like, I just need to fully commit to this if I want to try to make something happen and set off. And I was like, I might be gone three months and be over it. Or I might be gone three years. I really had no idea. And it turned into a four-year road trip all around the United States. And Canada.
And do you attribute that to really the kind of career you've built? I mean, that kind of stepping off. The saying that comes to mind is, you know, boats are safe in harbor, but that's not what boats are built for. Exactly. You just have to, you know, when I first set off at sail, I mean, if I had listened to the people in the marina, I'd still be sitting there. Yeah. Oh, no, you got to have that. You got to have that. You got to have wind vane. You got to have that. Definitely. You never go anywhere.
Yeah. And yeah, you have that same, I think, spirit and kind of background on the water, obviously. And I know you have the van as well and have done quite a few road trips. But yeah, I think it's just a combination of the things I kind of learned was, like I said, with skateboarding. There were so many other, even with photography, like you really have to take those leaps of faith if you want to get anywhere, push past those perceived boundaries, like I said. If you stay in your comfort zone, nothing, like they say, nothing great comes from your comfort zones. You really have to push past that. And it is, you have to still be smart and assess all of those risks. But at the same time, yeah, sometimes it's just going for it and fully committing.
And I think what I've learned over the years through everything that I've done is it's those moments that I was terrified of something. And I went for it anyways and pushed past those fears and just fully committed that ended up turning into the best experiences of my life. And that the van and taking off was one of those moments for sure.
So we have pretty similar backgrounds when it comes to that kind of thing. Yeah. And also I think similar where we've gotten to in a way. So you go through this time and it's really footloose and fancy free because you got nothing to lose. I like being in a position where you've got nothing to lose. But then four years later, you're making money now. You've landed Clif Bar and these other companies. And you're making money and you bring on an assistant and another assistant now. Still feels the same way? More pressure?
Yeah, that's a great question. I think having a team is still pretty new to me. I've had my original assistant, Whitney, for two years now. And she's part time. And then brought on my close friend, David Hatfield, full time to be kind of my agent and rep and really help in all aspects. And it is a little bit more. It's definitely a little more scary knowing that I have that overhead. And even I recently got rid of the van. I gave it away in a contest, wanted to pay it forward like my grandma had done with me. And decided I was kind of tired of living in something the size of a walk-in closet. You know, for four years straight, I couldn't even fully stand up.
And again, it was, you know, the experience of a lifetime. And I credit my grandma with giving me, kind of getting me where I'm at. If I wouldn't have had that van, it would have been a totally different story. But I was ready for something new. So I settled back down in San Diego. I'm renting a place, got a normal vehicle again and have hired a team. And yeah, it is a little more intimidating just knowing that I have to consistently have money coming in. And it's not this free spirit, kind of go with the wind. Like, I'll just take a job when it comes. And a lot of the stuff in my industry is last minute. But yeah, that's a lot more intimidating and does add some stress with knowing that there's other people's livelihood depending on you and your business and your creativity and making it all come together.
And just the business in general, so yeah.
One more business question and then we've got to switch to flying here. But I think it's fascinating. I think the listeners will find it fascinating.
Do your jobs, clients, you know, gigs, whatever we call them, do they always come from the company or do they come from athletes too? Like, do athletes reach out to you and go, hey, I need X and X? Because in my own personal contracts, there's never any budget for that. I've got to supply, you know, I've got to supply the imagery. And social media imagery is always kind of free. You know, it's just something that's just in my contract. I've got to do that. You know, there's extra stuff sometimes where it's in the contract that if I need to hire a photographer, that's on them if we're doing a specific project for X company. But just wondering that because that just seems to have shifted. I don't know if that's just me. Or the industry.
Yeah, that's a great point. I would say for me, it's a little bit all over the place. I've built relationships with quite a few athletes to where if we're just brainstorming or even if just the athlete is like, hey, I got this crazy idea. I want you to be a part of it. I've built those relationships where they know me. They trust me. We work really well together. They know that we produce really good content. And so hopefully if they have something cool, they know. I'll be stoked to at least hear about it and hopefully go on this crazy adventure and produce content and just have an overall really good experience.
And then are you figuring out, sorry to butt in, but are you then post-selling that or you got it all pre-sold? Are you approaching that as, hey, this is a great project. This is a cool person. I'm just going to shoot it and see what we can do with it.
Again, it's a little bit of everything. Sometimes the person's like, oh, I'm working with Black Diamond or Patagonia. I'm presenting this project and I want to add you to the team. And so it'll all be included in the proposal. And they do have budget and there's deliverables and it's all planned out ahead of time. And sometimes, and especially in the beginning, it's a lot more like, hey, let's go do something rad. Produce really cool content and hope that somebody is going to be stoked on it. And the more I guess you, the more you've produced and the more you have the name in the industry and have built that kind of trust factor to where they know that you're going to go out and get something, then they're able to back it beforehand and be like, okay, these guys are going out.
We know they'll get something cool. We can help fund the project and can contribute to that. And a lot of times it's honestly trying to pull from a couple different sponsors and be like, hey, we have this idea. Let's get this company and this company, like, you know, this clothing company and this shoe brand. And this gear brand and make it this project where we can incorporate all of them organically and produce content for them and hopefully get some budget enough to make the project happen. And then sometimes you have agencies reach out. I just did a project with Toyota. We were able to actually integrate paragliding into that. I did some surfing, paragliding and highlining all in one day. But sometimes agencies approach me or other athletes and we're like, hey, we have this really cool company that's looking for, whether it's an athlete or a content creator, we think you're great for this.
And you kind of go from there. What's the project about? What's the deliverables, budget? And you kind of break it down, see if it's a good fit. I honestly turned down, I would say over the years, it's been probably 90 % of jobs or proposals that come to me because I've been so, so passionate about staying true to myself and my brand and that organic-ness. We kind of talked about this earlier, but just companies that are really a good fit for me and my lifestyle. And I think that my audience would want to see. I don't want to kind of overwhelm people with these spammy, cheesy commercials. I want it to be something that I'm stoked on, something that I already use and integrate in my life and try and connect with those companies.
So overall, that would be kind of a tip that I would give anyone is try to, if you're already using a product and a brand, try and work with those companies, because those are the ones that will organically already be in all of your content, and it's not going to be some weird thing to have to integrate an underwear line or just something cheesy, whatever it might be that you're not going to see or use or whatever it is and just a natural fit. But yeah, I don't know if that fully answered it, but it's a whole spectrum of different things. Sometimes we reach out to the brands. Sometimes they reach out to us. So it's a little bit of everything. And that's part of why it has been intimidating, like I said, with that overhead because it's not always consistent and now I need a little bit more of that consistency.
But yeah, so trying to find outside ways to make sure that I have that stable income has been important too.
Okay, I want to not forget my second question here. But the first one is how much of your time is spent shooting versus all the other BS? Would you call it BS? I mean, it's the editing. It's part of the job. Yeah, it's the computer time. And
so nowadays people see these, I think not only myself, but anyone on social media who they, oh, this person's living the dream. We're traveling the world and staying in all the coolest places doing the coolest things. And the reality, because I am friends with quite a few of those people and, you know, have somewhat of a little bit of that lifestyle myself. It's a lot of back end work, especially if you don't have a team helping you. You got to be the one sending the emails and editing the photos and researching the best time for sunrise or where the Milky Way is going to be or what the weather conditions are like. And it's a ton of time. I would say 50
To 75 plus percent of my time is actually on a computer or indoors somewhere trying to get Wi-Fi and send emails and upload photos on a slow Wi-Fi wherever I can find it in some crazy country or just in a small cafe. I use libraries a lot when I was on the road. They always have decent Wi-Fi and a nice mellow place to sit and relax. But yeah, it's a... It's a large part of what I do. It's not just this like, oh, he's living the dream and on vacation 24-7 while you're there. And in these crazy places, you got to produce content no matter what the conditions are like. You have people paying you good money like this guy's going here.
And so there's a lot of pressure. You can't just be lounging by the pool or by the beach. You have to produce no matter what it is. And I take pride in my work and my quality. I want to make sure that the client is getting, you know, the highest quality possible. So yeah, for me, it's go time and it's no sleep because I love shooting the night sky. I want to be up for sunrise and I want to shoot golden hour and midday like for different things. For flying, it's good. So it's almost like just never ending. And then you got to go back and edit the photos and send them off. So yeah, it's a pretty crazy adventure 24-7.
Okay, I'm going to ask you a little tongue-in-cheek question here. How does a guy, even given your reach and your background in photography, I don't mean to sound this like a slam, but how do you get a Toyota commercial when today, I believe, was your first XC flight ever? There's a lot of listeners out there that are like, what the f**k?
Definitely. That's a great question. And yeah, we haven't really talked about my paragliding experience. Yeah, this
is the sort of transition.
So I'm at, I think, just about 100 hours and done some mountain sites. Being in San Diego, I started at Torrey Pines. I did quite a bit of kiting even before then and tried to, you know, listen to you guys and build those fundamentals and everything. But yeah, just started flying, you know, doing the mountain sites. And today was my first kind of intro into XC. I think we got about 10 miles or so. But yeah, it's been a little bit over a year. And I thought I'd transition kind of straight to PPG. My goal was to be able to take some camera gear up with me. So it was really
photography. When you came back to it after the tandem years later, it was mostly to get into PPG and shoot.
It was, yeah. It was always. I think everything for me is both for the experience and the photography. But yeah, I was like, how cool would it be to all fly and go anywhere you want and take my camera and capture that. And just having a motor on my back, I felt like I'd be able to reach places that I maybe couldn't reach without a motor. And so that really intrigued me. But once I started, I thought I'd kind of do it, to me, what seemed like the smart and safe way to learn how to control the wing. Before strapping a motor to my back and add just another element. So I learned how to kite and ground handling. And I wanted to get my launches and landing and everything dialed before, again, strapping a giant motor to my back.
And once I started flying, I was like, this is actually really cool. And I could really get into this whole side of it. And yeah, I've kind of been hooked on just that.
So today being your first mountain flight. What are the things that are... First XC, not necessarily... Sorry, first XC flight. I think it's fascinating how people get into the sport and what they learn early on. And I always have this 50-hour question. What would you do differently if you went back to your 50-hour self? You're there, basically. Because a lot of the hours I know are tori, ridge soaring, and it's kind of different than XC flying.
How has your learning process gone? What are you enjoying about it? And what do you feel like it may be missing?
Oh, that's a great question. I tried to, even before going to tori, I had friends in the sport. And they told me you have to be able to control your wing on the ground before you get in the air. And so I went out with buddies and just borrowed a wing and started kiting in the park. My buddy Dave just threw me in wild conditions, like 15-plus mile an hour. I had kited once or twice, like, all right, have fun. Just wanted me to learn and get kind of drug around and learn how to control the wing. I grew up flying trainer kites and even doing a little bit of kite boarding or variations of that. So I knew the wind window and I knew a little bit about controlling a wing in the air. But obviously, with a paraglider, there's a lot of different elements to that.
And it's just a lot bigger. So if you do something wrong, it's going to let you know and drag you around. So that was a huge part of my foundation was just kiting and ground handling. I think I had 40-plus hours before I even went to Torrey Pines to try and even talk to them. I just knew it would hopefully speed up the rest of my process if I just knew how to control the wing properly. And I think that's really helped. Even my first day there, the instructors were just like, yeah, we can tell you know what you're doing. I could forward launch and reverse launch and do all kinds of ground handling that most people, when they first start out, weren't able to do.
But I think I've flown
mostly at Torrey Pines and I feel relatively confident and comfortable in that situation. But I know that that's not the real world. And that's not what any other site in the world basically is going to be like. But it was such a great training ground to practice top landing and different approach patterns. And just really getting comfortable with how the wing will react in different situations and doing little spirals and just different things like that. And really understanding the fundamentals. Even on the ground. On
the ground
and in the air. And then now I know that as I'm getting into mountain flying, it's just such a different world to go from ridge soaring to thermal flying and XC. And I feel like even as I think you saw today, when I felt uncomfortable or I wasn't getting any thermals, my instinct was to go close to the ridge. Because I've been dependent on and just comfortable ridge soaring. And when I think the goal is if I were to push out a little bit, I could find those thermals. So kind of transitioning and understanding a little bit more of the thermals and what's the different reaction points and where those thermals are coming from.
And I think now I really need to continue to progress and learn more about the actual mountain flying. And real world situations that are everything but Torrey Pines.
How are you approaching learning now? Because you go through, I've often thought it's kind of tricky if you go through your instruction course and you get your P2 and you get signed off. And then it's like fly bird, fly. But you're still really young and really new. And you don't know that much. And so how? How? You know? If you don't hook into mentors and good mentors and the community, it sounds like you've got a really good community down in San Diego. But with all this, your work going on and all this other stuff going on, how are you approaching training, improvement, safety?
Yeah, that's a great question as well. And it is basically what you're talking about. I think with anything that I've done, it's surrounding myself with people who are better than me in every aspect. And I never want to be. The best in the room or the best in the area because you won't learn anything necessarily. And I'm someone who always wants to learn and grow. And there's always ways to progress. So for me and paragliding specifically, yeah, just getting myself into the community, making sure I'm going out with the right guys who know the launch sites, the mountains, the weather, asking questions constantly when you get there, making sure that you're going on the right days. That are, you know, moderate, mellow days, hopefully, and not, you know, this is extreme or could kind of turn on or OD at any point.
And I do have travels that kind of interfere with I can't just be paragliding isn't 100 % of my life. And I don't think it necessarily can be at this point because I'm running my own business and traveling and incorporating different things. So it's, I think, making sure that I'm aware of that as well. And if I come back from a month. Of not flying, not to just go, all right, let's go charge a big mountainside and try XC for the first time because it's a good day for that. It's like, okay, let me go back to Torrey, get comfortable ground handling and launching and landing and landing patterns, and then go out to a mountainside and just sight fly on a mellow day. And that slow progression and transition and making sure that I'm staying safe and in my relative comfort zone, like pushing myself enough.
To where I'm progressing with the right mentors and people around me, but not going to extreme too fast and making sure that even when I land, I'm asking, you know, to be critiqued. And what could I do better? Both internally asking myself those questions and hopefully asking the people around me on. Yeah, just how to progress and San Diego is a great community and prepare gliding right now. And we started. To there was a like a safety meeting about, yeah, just everybody learning the basics of like first response almost. It wasn't like an actual first response course, but it's like, hey, here's at least a little bit more knowledge and information.
And we want they want everybody to be able to help out if there if there is something that happens. So bringing a little bit more of that awareness to the community, making sure that everyone's active. And involved and can hopefully help each other if something does go wrong. And there's kind of a protocol to that. And yeah, because it is inherently dangerous and the more everyone's heads up and on the same page and knows what to do. If if somebody were to go down, hopefully there's somebody there that can that can help out. I know if I went down, I'd want somebody that kind of knew what to do rather than just being by myself there. So you see
you've participated in a lot of different sports. And I forget the term already for this 20 stair. Oh, yeah. It just sounds like a gnarly move. Yeah. So how does this how does paragliding compare on that kind of Richter scale of radness?
Yeah. Like I said, everything from skateboarding, 20 stair handrails to walking across slack lines, thousands of feet above the Yosemite Valley. And even I took on free diving a couple of years ago. I was actually scared of the ocean and push free diving and diving, you know, 40, 50 feet down and going through caves on a single breath and had to overcome that fear. But I think it it all has helped me with paragliding, understand myself mentally and physically and what I can handle and when I feel uncomfortable kind of staying calm and relaxed and assessing situations. Because I think if you. If you start freaking out and your adrenaline is going and you're scared, you're not going to make the best decisions.
So being able to stay calm and relaxed and focused and assess things has been a huge part of, I think, helping and hopefully continuing to help me stay safe in all of these different sports. But, yeah, paragliding, especially, I mean, the mountain flying is still so new to me. Torrey Pines. I think there is that that comfort factor of, oh, you can just go to the beach. You know, 300 feet down and be fine. But there's so many more unknowns once you hit the mountains that I'm still I'm still nervous, like in a good way. And I know that I have to respect the environment and the conditions and and assess those properly. So I think even today I was I was talking after our flight and was like, I didn't even take a single picture.
I didn't pull out my phone. Because I knew that I was uncomfortable or not. I wanted to stay safe and be present and just do all. There's so many distract. If you pull out a GoPro and you're taking selfies and all these things, it's just going to distract. So I'm still at that point where I want to be 100 percent present and safe and progress.
Does it scare you more or less than other stuff? Yeah, I
realize I maybe didn't even answer that question.
Oh, it's a different feeling because it's just so it's beautiful and peaceful. And you're just that's part of what I love about paragliding is just so incredible and relaxing. But at the same time, if you're starting to sink out or you're scratching and there's this, I think that's when it gets intimidating. And it should be intimidating when you're low versus when you're high, obviously. So, yeah, it's it's pretty up there, especially especially I feel like I'm a lot more out of my element than in other situations. So we have to revisit this after
in a year. If you start doing a ton of XC flying, I want to see if you still say it's relaxing. Oh, yeah. I'm often find I don't find like the kind of flights that I do. I don't find them relaxing. Yeah. Like the end of the day when there's a glass off or, you know, we're having a nice letter in the evening, of course. You know, but I find I find like, you know, big XC days is like going to battle. Oh, yeah. Well, you're doing another
level. Well,
I mean, it's just I like that because when I, you know, most people, when they take a tandem, they say, oh, it's so quiet. It's so relaxing. And I'm like, wow, that's that's not the sport
I participate in. Yeah. And that's what I'm finding with. I mean, if I I've mostly just done sight flying even at mountains so I can thermal up and I'm not trying to go anywhere. So then I'm just cruising and find the next thermal. I'm hanging out. So, yeah. And I've just gone on good days and had good lift. And so there has been that element of like, oh, this is pretty cool. But once I get lower, yeah. Even today, as we started to exceed, I'm like, whoa, this is intense. Like, where's the bailout? Or, yeah, just there's a million different factors. So, yeah, I know that's that's where I'm at that transitional period again, where it's like, OK, it's back to everything being intense and a million different factors. There's a million different factors everywhere. But that's what I love about it, too.
So I imagine because of your, you know, huge following and we don't need to go back to that. But, you know, you've got a ton that there will be a lot of people listening to this that are not pilots. You know, most of the podcast is is most of our listeners are, of course, pilots at every level, you know, from your guys level to all the way up. You know. And what would you say to the folks listening? That that are maybe like, wow, this paragliding sounds pretty interesting. What would you say to the, you know, the folks who don't know what it's all about?
I would say it's an incredible experience and there's obviously nothing else like it. But if you do decide to take it on, make sure you do it the right way. And don't just buy a wing and watch a YouTube video and hook yourself off a mountain. I think it's all about safety and surround yourself with. The right mentors and going through the proper safety. But yeah, because there is that risk, but the reward is just incredible. And the community is incredible. That's part of what I love about this, too, is coming up to Santa Barbara and hanging out and meeting new people and seeing new landscapes. So, yeah, it's it's for sure something I want to do the rest of my life. And I'm just taking it slow to make sure that I do it the right way so that I can do it the rest of my life.
But yeah, there's there's really nothing else like it. So I encourage you to take a tandem, see if you like it and definitely dive in and do it the right way. But it's it's incredible.
Travis, thanks. It's a great place to end. It's awesome meeting you. Good luck with your progression. I'd love to check in with you again in a year or so. And but yeah, have fun at Cloudbase and keep chasing it. Thank
you so much. And yeah, hopefully we can get up to more adventures soon. I really appreciate it. I
hope you enjoyed that. Always fun to sit down with these great pilots in different parts of the world. Super inspiring. As always, all we ask for is a buck a show. If you're getting something out of the Cloudbase Mayhem, there are many ways you can support it, either financially through PayPal and soon to be just directly through our website. We'll have details of that up pretty soon. But if you can't support us financially, we totally understand this will remain free as long as we can do it. But you can support it in many other ways. You can give us on a rating on iTunes or Stitcher or however you listen to your podcast. That really goes a long ways. You can blog about it on your own blog. You can post about it on social media, share it with your friends, talk about it on the way to launch. I know many, many of you are doing that. I really appreciate it. And another way you can support us is through our store.
We've just got a whole new load of awesome Patagonia t-shirts for men and women. And a whole new box of super-styly trucker hats by Recaps. Each one is totally unique. Got a whole bunch more colors that seem to be more in favor. So go to cloudbasemayhem.com, click on the store link and get some cool swag. That's another great way to support the show. But yeah, get behind us. We're doing this directly just through you instead of sponsors because I just can't stand having that whole sponsor thing at the top of the show. And I want you to know that it's an authentic conversation. It's just opinions and they're not being skewed by advertising dollars, which I think is a pretty toxic thing that's happening going on right now.
Globally with all the stuff going on with Facebook and others. So anyway, we'd like to do a direct. We appreciate your support and we'll see you on the next one. Cheers.