Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloudbase Mayhem. Been a busy couple weeks since the release of the hang gliding episode. Lots and lots of feedback on that one. Seems like most people enjoyed it, but if you haven't caught that one yet, go back and listen. It's a fantastic history, super fun. That was really, really interesting to put together. And I apologize. Many people have pointed out that we missed some big legends along the way, which is, you know, it was a two-hour show. We had to decide what we were going to keep and what we would cut. And, you know, it's just hard to put everything together. But if anything, it meant we need to do more of those. There's so much knowledge there with the hang gliders. And, you know, they were doing it so much longer before paragliding was even around. And so I definitely need to interview a lot more hangies and try to capture that knowledge before it disappears potentially.
But, yeah, fun show. Hope you enjoyed that one. This show, I don't have any real housekeeping before we get into this one. Thank you all for contributing that we had a huge surge in contributions with that last show with the hang gliding episode, which was really cool. I appreciate that. This show, I have been wanting to talk to Zayad Basil for a long time. I don't know if I'm saying his last name right. I apologize if I'm not. But Dust of the Universe, this is a blog that he maintains. He's been testing wings now for a very, very long time. He lives in Lebanon, you know, obviously a pretty fascinating place. So, you know, I've been wanting to talk to him for a long time. So, you know, I've been wanting to talk to him for a long time. I couldn't resist asking him some questions before we even got into it about Beirut and the Civil War and what's going on in Lebanon and the very unique challenges that they have to flying.
But some cool places to fly. I've been watching the stuff that they've been doing for some time now. But I really wanted to ask him, and many of you have asked me to ask him, how he goes about testing. And, you know, he's been a prolific tester of gear, harnesses, and wings for a very long time. And so we talk about how he does that and why. And what he's been able to accomplish. And, of course, some of the blowback he gets for putting out his opinions. He's, you know, because he does it on his own dime, he's able to be very honest about his own opinions. He's not beholden to any company and doesn't have to say what they want him to say. He says what he says. So quite a different path. You know, it's an honest way to hear about a wing rather than an ad in a magazine or something.
So I've been very appreciative of his work. For a very long time. We haven't always agreed. But it's been, I appreciate what he does very much. And I think you will as well. If you're not familiar with him, just Google Dust of the Universe and you'll find his Facebook page and his blog. And you'll see the prolific amount of testing he's done. It's really impressive. So I think you're going to enjoy this. If you're into gear or you're thinking about gear or you're just interested in flying, especially flying in the Middle East. Middle East. This is a cool show and a very cool character. So without further delay, please enjoy this cool conversation with Zayad Basil.
Zayad, welcome to the Cloudbase Mayhem. This is pretty exciting for me. I've been following your write-ups about gear for I don't know how many years now. And we've, of course, had a ton of requests to have you on the show. So this is pretty exciting. I really appreciate your time. I thought a great place for us to start. It's just to share with everybody where you are and what the flying is like, where you are. We discussed before we started recording there that you've got some pretty unique challenges flying in Lebanon.
Zayad Basil Hi, Gavin, thank you for putting me on your show on the podcast.
Yes, well, actually, if you want to speak about the challenges to fly in Lebanon, Lebanon is a small place to fly. But you have interesting sites, one site, two sites in the north. I mean, three sites in the north and one site in the middle of the country.
It's practically flyable all year round, but not this year. This is very tough for us, very bad weather. The challenges of flying in Lebanon. Because of the. Because of the political situation, it's a bit difficult for us. We must phone the army before we fly and we must call them again when we land. Every flight? Yes, yes, every flight. You have to. Yeah, that's pretty tough sometimes, especially when we want to go for a good day for XC and it's difficult a bit. But it's flyable.
And they let us fly every day if it's if it's if it's OK.
And are there are there like, you know, are there are there real risks to to flying in terms of, you know, violence, guns, landmines, you know, are that the stuff we see on TV or is that, you know, are you flying in areas that are, you know, that that's not really a risk? It's more just, you know, dealing with the army and letting them know.
Yeah, of course we fly in a really nice places. There are no risks in those places. There are restricted areas we cannot fly.
So it's practically 50 kilometers by 50 kilometers. That's it. That's the area we can fly almost in Lebanon. It's pretty small, but it's that's pretty secure. That's to say.
And tell me, tell me about the community you have there. You know, how big is your do you have like a club? How big is the club? How many people? You know, and do you get together? Can you travel to nearby countries to fly? You know, what's it like getting in and out?
Well, there are really few pilots in Lebanon. There are three clubs, but there are if you gather all the pilots, maybe 50 pilots, 50 pilots. And on the weekends, you can see maybe 15, 20 pilots maximum. That's it. Mostly it's now. Focused on tandem flights since people likes to fly sing and solo pilots really. I mean, there's not really much. Yeah, there's not really much solo pilots flying in the air. Sometimes I'm flying maybe in the Cedar Range. It's a very nice place to fly and almost alone in the sky.
So and during the week. Also, sometimes if I can, I can fly alone, maybe two or three pilots in the air. That's it. Tell
me to give give us a picture. I mean, I realize that's hard and it's not your native language, but give us a picture of what it's, you know, so I've spent quite a bit of time in Morocco, a little bit in Tangier. You know, what does it what does it look like? Describe the flying. You know, is it is it big mountains, small mountains? Are you flying? Is it urban? Is it rural? You know, what what is it? What's the flying? Flying like
maybe I should start by saying that we have the three small sites. There is one site in Juni Bay. This site is around seven hundred thirty meters above sea level and you can land on the beach. And this is a small site, but have nice weather conditions. It's protected, kind of protected from the wind, from the bad weather. This is a site in. Juni, the other site in the north part is called Miziara in front of Miziara. We have a zero is a mountain with eight hundred thirty meters of height. Then we have a flat land toward the sea and it's not really far from zero.
It's twelve kilometers to the sea, but it's all flat. And this is a very nice site for comparison for wing comparisons also and for small XC flights.
Very forgiving side, not really dangerous to fly there. And then these two these two sites are for the winter and summer. But the the Cedar Range, we have the Cedar Range and it's and this in the north part, the highest mountain is three thousand nine hundred meter. It's not really far also from the sea. So in a direct line. It's forty kilometers. So the condition there are really nice, really, really nice. So maybe in the morning we have the other side of this mountain. This mountain faces faces west and east and on the east.
We have the Bekaa Valley, which is not really it's restricted area. We cannot fly there, but we have a very flat land and it's really powerful. So. So if you take up take off at ten o 'clock, probably you get a six meter per second easy and twelve. Yes, at twelve. It's if you can handle the glider, I think sometimes in August get above six hundred meters. But of course, it's it's not really fun to fly because it's a strong thermal breeze. But anyway, if you get. To four thousand meters and just turn and just turn, you have a forty glide to the sea.
So it's a very, very easy spot to go exceed.
Did you say four thousand meters?
Four thousand meters is just very easy to take. I mean, a school school. Yeah, because it's very easy to the thermals are really strong.
Wow. And are you are you are you in are you in Beirut?
No, I'm staying in Jbeil. Jbeil. Jbeil is Biblos, Biblos. It's in the north part. So I'm between all the sites. OK. Maybe if. Yeah. So an hour drive, I can be in the cedars. Fifteen minutes. I can be in June 45 minutes and can be in Miziara. So I'm between the three sites. And
most of the pilots there that fly in the club, maybe the the non tandem pilots, are they mostly from Lebanon or are they mostly expats?
No, mostly from Lebanon. OK. Mostly from Lebanon. Yes. Yeah.
Wow. And you have you have a school there, a couple of schools.
Yes, there are two schools there, but mostly they are focused now on tandem flying. They are, of course, teaching some pilots, but there is no really big interest now in learning paragliding. But we are trying to introduce this sport more and more. Um, but anyway, they are making tons. And like very often, every day, each pilot are making 10, 12 tandems. I don't know. They are really working well.
So this is going to sound like a completely just a stupid question. But, you know, with with the with everything going on literally right across your border in Damascus, you know, is that how much does that impact you? Uh. How much does it impact Lebanon as as a country? I mean, is there is there any hope of ever dialing up to 4000 and going and going east?
Well, that's yeah, that's really difficult to say. I've never tried it because I can be I can be shocked.
Of course, of course,
quite easily, quite easily going to the Bekaa Valley at 4000. It's easy to go exceed. But you can I can go on. On the on my right to the to the south, so I can go to the south because the the range of mountains, it's separate Lebanon and horizontally so you can go to the south and go back. But the problem is the airline.
Mm hmm.
And then and is
that the same? Is that the same case with going, you know, kind of south southwest into Israel? Or is that even a is that a possibility? Yes,
but we cannot go there. Of course. Yeah. That's why I told. Yes, only 50 kilometers maximum by 50 kilometer. This is the area we can have some little fun. So you've got that really that
window and that's how long has it been like that?
Well, it has been like that since I began. Really? Since I can we had we had Syrian army before and the north part of that time and it was really challenging to fly. Over them and not being shot. So multiple times I have landed far away, maybe when there was Syrian army in the Kura flats and I was surrounded by military army with gun pointing at me. So for me, this was a hell of an adventure.
And wow. And
to mention being arrested on many times and waiting and moments to get released. Yeah, because wow. But yeah, it was very difficult in the past.
Well, I'm. I'm encouraged by your passion and enthusiasm when it's and so it's kind of an isolated place where you can't really explore too much. I it's neat that you've stayed so passionate about the sport. But so
I mean, the problem to get one glider into a custom and receiving it, you don't know really the mess we got into only one glider. Each glider comes the customs put it into control. And we have to move two or three times to Beirut. It's a 35 to 40 kilometers from my place to three times because of the control of the glider. The glider stays and the customs office, a guy from the military gums and check it, then it will be cleared. So each glider takes about 20 to 25 days sometimes to get cleared. So imagine I received maybe one or two gliders.
The first training is about 15 to 20 hours per week. And all the stress to to get it out of that's. Also, it's a challenge for us. But anyway, that's how we do it.
And we both have a mutual friend. I haven't seen him in years. But Ronnie, who's an American surfer in Maui and stuff. I'm not sure if he's still there, not. Is he still there? Yes, he
is. He's here many times. Yeah. Is it
different for him, or can he fly the same stuff that you guys do?
He knows the limits. In this part of the country, it's really safe to fly.
If he's
American, if he's any foreign pilot, he can fly really safely here. It's not that dangerous to fly because there is order here, peace and order, like we say. But in this part, we don't really go far at that point. Lebanon is a small country, but in this part, it's really, really safe. I mean, I was arrested by my own people, by my own army. They
wanted you to be safe,
yeah. Yeah, because where are you going? Why did you land here? So that's it. They're looking
after you.
Yeah, maybe when you fly and you like to fly, and the conditions are really good, you have to push the envelope. You have to go to make a long distance flying.
And maybe 20 years ago, there was not really the political situation was really bad before. I mean, there is no government. There was Syrian army here, and it was militias. And we were flying, I mean, going to remote places.
Are you talking about during the civil war?
Yeah, maybe in 90, from 94, 93 to now. But now it's okay. Now we have a government. You have an army, Lebanese army. There is no problem here now. It's very safe, and lots of foreign pilots are coming. We had last week a Danish team. Danish team. Oh, really? Really? Cool. Often we have foreign pilots coming here.
Now, another place that I haven't been, but I've been fascinated for a long time, there's, you know, Jordan is not far from you. And that seems like this kind of bastion of security in a very insecure part of the world these days. Do you go to Jordan? Do you fly in Jordan?
No, no, I did not. I didn't, not yet. But I heard that also it's a bit restricted to fly. My friend work in Jordan, and he said that it's a bit difficult also. So there are places that you have to slip to fly, like, you know, to fly and to run away.
Oh, really? Hike and run.
Fly and run. Hike, fly. Good
training for the ex-Alps. Maybe I should go there.
Yeah.
Okay. Well, I had to ask you some of the, just to get a sense of the place. I appreciate that. It's a fascinating part of the world. And it's sure not without. It's dangerous, but it sounds also pretty exciting. I'd like to get out there and fly. You've inspired me to come visit. It sounds neat. So a little bit more on your history, and then I wanted to get into gear. How long have you been flying? And tell us about the transition to do these gear reviews. How did that all happen?
Okay, so I'm flying. I began in the early 90s with a few friends. We were pioneers in that sport. There was a group of French tourists flying over here at that time, over Junier Bay. And I was hooked up. One Frenchman stayed a week later and told me how to fly. Later on, I began to kite my glider practically alone every day because, you know, this is the kind of magic carpet for me. So flying in some, yeah. So I was flying practically alone in some remote areas without no instrument, no weather report, had little knowledge of the weather, change, anything.
So for me, it was a great adventure. In the very early days, I would sleep in the Cedar Range and would fly almost every day. It was, yeah, it was a dream with nature, elements. And weekends, I was joined with a couple of cool friends. I still remember. I remember my really best friends. Now they are not flying.
Roland, Matthew, remember, Thomas. And it was great to share the flight with them. It was really, yeah, it's like you're alone, you know, and you're discovering everything about paragliding. The French guy taught me for three days and sent me a glider. And he sent me, he sent me the glider of Hugh Levi Smiles. The glider that Hugh Levi Smiles set the world record on. Wow.
So for me, it was really dangerous. Yeah. And I was pretty scared. I was pretty scared to fly that glider in the Cedars. But I've learned, I've learned too much since then. And, well, and that's it.
And how did you start doing the gear reviews? And I think a lot of people would like.
I would like
to know, you know, how that works with the companies and, you know, are they loaners? Are they, do you have to buy them? Do they give them to you? How does that all work?
Well, actually, I began, I began the first, okay, I must tell you why I do those testing. I mean, for my first early days, I had this, I don't know, this, I don't know how to say it. It's like a field. It's like a field to get, to fly other gliders. It's like, it's like I always say that birds cannot exchange wings, but we can. That's it. This is, so they fly and they fly much better than us for a million years, but they cannot exchange wings. So we can exchange them and we can feel the difference when you exchange them.
I mean, if you give and fly. An ENA glider, and then you fly a CCC glider, the difference is a huge. And I was really happy to exchange the wings from the early stages. So, I mean, if your friend comes in a wing, I would ask if I can fly these wings. And now, and afterward, everyone lent me his wing.
That's how it began. And afterward, I would.
Sometimes borrow, in the early days, I mean, the gliders from my friends. And then I was contacted by some manufacturers. I wrote the test on the net and nobody got them seriously. I mean, they said that who's going to listen to them? Who's going to read them? I mean, I'm happy. I'm just writing from my heart everything I know. That's it. I'm doing my best. And then I contacted some companies. And I bought the gliders.
And 15 years ago, I mean, sometimes I was lent. They lent me the glider. But it wasn't good for me because if a company lends you the glider, sometimes they would ask. Then you can't be objective. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm always saying what I want to say. I'm always objective. But the problem is that when he lends you the glider and he said, OK, please just tell me before you ride. What? That's what you are going to ride. And that was frustrating to me. So I stopped that.
And afterward, I made the budget. I put a budget and then I purchased some gliders. I began to purchase the gliders. And that's the way I can take full time and then fly the glider and then sell the glider. That's it.
And so that works. That works out. What's the economic model for you then? Is it you're able to buy the glider at maybe cost and then sell it and make enough? Or is it basically just a pass through and you're funding all this through your other work?
Yeah. I put a budget of maybe $10,000 or a small budget. And I said this budget, I'm going to use it for buying stuff. And then because of Lebanon, there is no dealers in Lebanon. Yes, there is a dealer, but all friends. I mean, there is an ozone dealer. There is a gin dealer. But dealer with 50 pilots, not really interesting. I mean, they gave me the glider. I paid the glider at nearly the cost of the glider. And when there is no dealer, I can get the glider directly from the manufacturer. At the dealer price.
Sometimes when the glider is finished and maybe it's somebody is interested here, you can sell it here. Otherwise, I can sell it worldwide. It's only one glider, one size, one tested. I don't get to work on this stuff. So I only purchase one glider, one size, or maybe two size, M, L, M, and SM. Okay. Because I'm thin. So the smaller size, yeah, smaller size and the medium size. And then I sell them afterward.
Okay. And is this your main job?
No, no, it's not my main job.
Okay. What do you do for, quote, unquote, real work?
This is obviously fun work, which we're all trying to figure out how to do. But yeah.
I had a special occasion during the war in 75. We get out from Beirut. My father, we get to go into Byblos, Jbeil, and I was 11 years old. I was still at school. And we finished. My father did his job here in Jbeil. We made. A big supermarket. And when I finished my school, I worked with my father. And in 2004, I took the job, the supermarket, enhanced it.
And now I have a big company. And that's my main job.
Okay. So you're very busy with that. Yes. How much time? How much time would you say? You can dedicate to the testing and writing. And we'll have all this in the show notes. But those of you who are listening, if you don't know it already, you probably do. But on Facebook, it's Dust of the Universe. And if you just Google search Dust of the Universe, you'll find Zayad's blog, which is terrific. And it's easier to Google it that way than the address. But you'll see what we're talking about with all the reviews and the different wings and everything. But. How much time are you able to dedicate? Or what would you say you dedicate to doing the testing maybe each month?
Well, Gavin, as I said, my home place is really between all the sites. And, well, if it's flyable and everything is on the right way, my company is really lots of people working. And. And I can manage to go and fly. So every day, if it's flyable, I can go fly. And I go back to work. I can go back to work very easily. So it's not really like France, maybe or Europe, because the sites are really far away. And you have to travel. So maybe 15 minutes, I can go to the near site. It's very easy to reach.
So, I mean, I'm available when it's flyable.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. What do you do? You cover all manufacturers or are you are you trying to isolate just with a few or tell us about how you how do you approach the testing? And I know it's, you know, it's harnesses, wings, everything, correct?
Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, I like to test fly anything, all the gliders, all the harnesses, if I can, from every manufacturer. But sometimes, sometimes it's difficult to reach all the manufacturers. Sometimes it's difficult to, to push them. Some manufacturers don't let you get their wings. I mean, yeah, they know that I can write whenever I want. So some companies are not happy. That's it's a big business. And if everyone is, does know. They know how the business work and they know that they are keeping their business, you know, properly, properly maintained.
I mean, if there is a problem with any glider, I'm, I will write it.
Because, you know, you're reviewing these things and you're very honest and, you know, sometimes they aren't glowing reports, you know, do you, do you receive much blowback from the community? Do you, do you, do you have to get into, you know? I don't know, little pissing matches.
No, I'm, I'm just, I write just exactly as I feel, exactly. I feel every word, I mean, but always being polite because I know I have a company and I understand the load and the pressure, uh, the company has the payments that, that, that, um, they have to, uh, to expand. I know. So. But I write everything right. Anyway, the, the people who get, um, pissed off, I mean, this is the companies, the owners of the companies and everyone, of course, maybe some tell, tell me that losing lots of money and you, you, you, you wrote that it's not really nice to roll this.
The glider is really nice. I mean, I say, uh, the glider is really nice, but I mean, it's shown on the video. It's, it's, it's clear. It's, um. Maybe it's a D glider and this, uh, this C glider is performing much better. Um, I mean, it's, it's, it's obvious. What do you want me to write? This is the right thing to do. Yeah. And you should not release the wing, should not release the wing before you make your own testing. If it's nowadays, I cannot, um, I'm saying that, okay, so they are, the performance are really close. I say that the performance, I write that the performance are really close. I mean, that's it. They're really close. They are close, but if they are not close, I will, I will, I will write it as it is.
I will write it because, but I will write it polite, uh, politely, you know, I'm not, I'm not the guy who just on a wreck, uh, all the companies. No, I'm just, I'm just the writing. What should, uh, what I felt. That's it. Yeah.
Yeah, sure. Sure. The, um, so, so what, what manufacturers do you mostly. Uh, review.
Well, everyone, every manufacturer, if, if I can purchase a wing, I can purchase it and I review the wing class and the C-class and then the D-class C because mainly competition gliders doesn't need the reviews. They fly by their own and they test, but maybe B and C and D gliders.
Sure. Okay. Um, so what, what company. Right now, uh, and again, listeners, this is Zyad's opinion, uh, and so we're all allowed to have them. So, you know, obviously you've probably got favorites and unfavorites, but, uh, you know, without, you know, maybe, uh, angering too many companies here, um, which, which manufacturer, cause there's, there's some new players on the block. We just did a podcast with, uh, Philippe Resende with flow. Uh, there's the, there's the Korean, uh, the new Korean company. There's fee. Fee, uh, which is kind of exciting, you know, man, they're, they're really just concentrating on the A gliders right now, but you know, long history there with, with Hannes. Um, but what, what manufacturers right now, do you feel like, uh, you know, are really kind of pushing the envelope?
Are you kind of most excited about, maybe you can predict in the future, they're going to have the, you know, the, yeah. Who, who's, who in your mind is. Yeah.
Well, that's a tough question here. I mean, I felt that over the years, there was always some glider that will mark the paragliding world by their efficiencies in the air every, maybe four to five years, six years. I don't know. I felt there would be a new discovery from a certain company that lead to a better performance improvement. Uh, and then other companies do some effort to reach that development. Um, I think today eliminating, uh. The drag is the most challenging part and moving forward, uh, toward better performance because all the companies are really professional and they have a big R and D and the top bleeding brands as you know, them.
Uh, so yeah, the bar is already very high in every category in the BC and D. And as I said, the top bleeding brands, the 10 top bleeding rats are trying hard to move forward. Or at least. To deliver up-to-date gliders, because maybe in the C category today, the performance is nearly the same and the high B also it's very close and that's it. So if, um, the easiness of flight also, there is really not, uh, I cannot say, uh, I cannot mention one company, but there's really top companies here that are doing really nice job.
Yeah. So let's, I'm going to put you on the spot here. You don't have to. Answer this, but if you, if you'd like to go for it. Um, well, first of all, if you, when you're just flying for your own personal fun, uh, are you flying a CCC or a B or where, where, what are you flying for when you're trying to go out and do, you know, a challenging XC flight?
Um, you see my philosophy in flying is pleasure in flight. That's why I, I like the gliders that, um,
um, I mean, I've been swapping. Gliders like crazy. It's difficult for me to have only one glider, but of course not CCC because I'm not competing. I'm not sure that glider and it's difficult anyway, and to use it in some very turbulent air. So I'm taking a risk and, uh, this risk is. Yeah.
Yeah. It's not worth it.
Yeah. It's not worth it. Yeah. That's it. I mean, today's gliders are, if, if I want to fly in the past now, 10 years ago, uh, I wouldn't dream of flying. Maybe a C glider or a B glider in this, the performance of those gliders today weren't available in competition gliders 10 years ago. So, I mean, I fly a, maybe a C or a D glider if I want to. That's it. I don't have one specific glider.
Okay. Um, great. I mean, I think that helps us just understand, you know, what, what you'd like to fly. So, um, let, let, let's run, let's run through. And again, I, everybody understands. This is just your, your opinion, but it's, uh, but you must have, uh, a favorite in each, you know, like what's your favorite B, what's your favorite C, what's your favorite D right now currently?
Of course. Of course. Uh, it's very easy answer. I mean, I'm a person who favors, um, the pleasure of flight. I mean, the handling of a glider, if the hand, the glider handles pretty well, I'm sensitive to that. So, I mean, it's personal. I mean, if I fly a glider and this glider gives me exact feeling of. Uh, agility inside the thermal and cut through and climb. And I like that glider. I favor this glider. So, I mean, in the B category now today, uh, um, I mean, the Shelly, uh, four is really nice to fly. Yeah. Skywalk and the Chile four. It's a really nice to fly among the B plus I can state doesn't have gliders. I mean, really?
Yeah. Because. Wow. The B category. Wow. I've made the, I've made the comparison, the B comparison and the handling is what I really looking forward. I mean, the rush five. Now it's not handles swiftly like the, the Chile four, but it has really nice performance and very easy to fly also. So this, this is interesting to make up a B plus glider that is really comfortable to fly. And then also, uh, very high performance and also on the sea. And then the D category.
Yeah, I, I almost feel like we need to, I should have expanded on my question because the, the B category, you know, I, I, I haven't flown a B in many, many, many years, so I, I don't have experience with it. But, um, the, the, the B category is, is massive now, isn't it? I mean, the, the, we, we didn't use to say a hot B or a low B. We used to just say B, but now it's like, you know, there's a middle B, there's a low B, there's a high B. I mean, the high B is everybody says, oh, well, it's. It should be a C, um, you know, uh, so maybe I should even say, you know, what's your favorite low B high B. And then I think we have to do the same thing for the C's now. Don't we?
Well, Gavin, the B category is really big, uh, huge, I mean, and the manufacturers, yeah, because of the pilots, uh, this is the, this is the most purchased wings. Uh, of all the categories, sure. And, uh, this category. Uh. Um, I mean, it changes a lot. I mean, low B category, sometimes, sometimes low B category is not, uh, it's not really a low B category. Uh, I mean, manufacturers, some manufacturers has a low B and a high B, but many B sometimes when I fly a low B, I sense that, wow, it's a dynamic wing. Um, it shouldn't be, but it's the race for performance and race for performance is, uh.
Uh, it's a race for performance. So when you challenge, when you make challenges with a low B and you're marketing, you are, you're marketing a low B glider, I expect to have a low B glider that is a bit, uh, spicy. Hmm. So, I mean, yeah, I mean, I mean, companies maybe should, uh, market, uh, should be marketing a high B glider. Okay. We understand. So it's a B, but it's marketing for XC use. And the other one. It's for, uh, beginner, uh, beginner plus that's it. But today, uh, it's, um, it's really messy. I mean, you have all, all of them are in the B category, all of them pass the certification, but, uh, not really all of them are, um, similar.
I mean, in the low B category, as the HG stated, they are maybe one, two, three classes and they, and the low B category, they put three, four classes. I don't know, maybe in the high B also. Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I think about like a, a Carrera versus, uh, what, what would be a good idea?
It's not to be, uh, yeah, at the time put it to be, but it's not really a B right.
Right. I think that's where people need to be careful. Don't they? Because it's, you know, you're, if you, if you've just come out of the school and you're a P one and you're looking for your first glider and you go, oh, I'll get a B and you get a career, uh, you're, you've just, you've just purchased a pretty hot. Hot ship.
Of course for them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, also if you, if you got a wing that's really, um, tuned to pass a certification, I don't think you will get, um, uh, most of the performance with it. I mean, the Carrera, the, the original Carrera, the original Carrera was really nice to fly. It was dynamic to fly and we forget the B, but I mean, I mean, later on the B the Carrera plus was smooth to fly more pitch back and it wasn't a B of course, but it did, um, did not have the, uh, um, the performance field.
I mean, lots of pilots today are going, uh, to ask about the B category. I mean, today, if you have a B category and you're flying for fun, that's the category you have to aim. But if you. Are, um, you want more challenging sensations of flights, I think big gliders can be boring, of course, but not for all the pilots. I mean, for weekend pilots, for a pilot flying maybe 50 hours per year. I mean, the B category, the B plus category is more than enough. I mean, if I fly the B category, I can practically fly with any glider with any good C or D glider. If she is, that is a good pilot flying a B. Plus. Plus glider. I don't, we miss anything about performance.
It would be fly very, um, competitively. I mean, okay. Not for competition, but maybe for XC, for pleasure, for going on his own challenging.
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think Nova proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt with the mentor, you know, and they put those great pilots on. I mean, I think people often miss that, that these were very, very good pilots flying that wing. Uh, you know, these were comp pilots in. In many cases, but, you know, they were, you know, the doing these massive triangles in the Alps on a mentor proved to everybody, uh, that, you know, that you don't necessarily need, uh, to take a lot of risk with your, with your glider choice. You know, you can get on a mentor and have a really good day.
And look, yeah, Gavin, it's no, it's really, um, this, this question of mentor, the best mentor was created. It was a mentor too. I had one in S size. And. And flying that glider was spicy. Yes, a bit, but really competitive among the current at the time, current glider at the time, it was competitive. Of course, it wasn't a glider for any beginner going to the sport, but it was like a new, it was, it was that glider that you feel that it is at the time it was pitching inside the term. It's a slipping through the thermal. You can feel everything. It's like a competition slider. And it, it was, it was digging through the stuff is surfing, getting in.
So I was really impressed by that glider. And then the mentor series, the three was more mellow. The four was, I don't know, a bit, uh, very well performance, but, uh, anyway, uh, it changes a bit and the five combined all of them, uh, still, but very mellow, not all of them are not, uh, like the mentor to in the interesting and the, and the field, and then all the, all the other competitors, uh, catch up, caught up with them doesn't know how, now you have really five or six B plus company gliders, uh, which are really competitive.
Hmm. Um, okay. How about C's
about C's? What do you want to know?
Just your, your. Favorite right now. You, you know, your, your own, you know, if you had, if you had 15 of them sitting there from 15 different companies, which would you grab to go, which are you most excited about?
Yeah. Okay. Okay. I mean, my favorite one was, uh, five years ago was a Delta two and then, uh, Delta two in size MS, because also it's very important to stay the size when I make a test, uh, some people disagree because they do not fly the glider. The same size of the glider I tested at the same load is still different criteria is very difficult. I mean, yeah, it's, uh, differs a lot sometimes. Uh, so, um, Delta two MS, it was really nice glider and then Skywalk, make it the Cayenne, the Cayenne, uh, five, it's very impressive glider. And now when I flew the Delta three, it was okay.
Not really the handling, the fun handling, the precise. Handling of the Delta two, which was nice performance into in performance and real air, but I liked more the Alpina three. So this one, I'd been a three now I have, and I tested the. New york, um, Arctic five, which is really impressive. I got the edge of it over the Alpina in some ways and, and also, um, and also the new Jen Bonanza too. So, I mean, yeah, it's really nice. The Bonanza two also, all the three have very close performance. I mean, I have the three of them in my truck now, and each day I'm going to fly them.
I pick one, I just go and fly. I land, I take another one and practically the same, the same, happy with them.
Yeah, we're working right now on a, in fact, it'd be released today. And that's not going to be the, that won't make any sense to the listeners because this won't be out. But it'd be the day where you and I are talking, um, about hang, a big hang gliding episode. And, uh, we've got, we had Dustin Martin. We were actually, there's a bunch of different, uh, people that are in that episode. And, uh, Dustin Martin, who has the current world record in hang gliding for distance is, has gotten into paragliding the last few years, and he's flying the Arctic five. And he was talking about the, the launch characteristics are just unreal. He says that you can just launch it from anywhere and almost any kind of conditions. He said, it's really, really nice. It made me want to fly the glider. I, I, I spent, you know, maybe, as you know, I spent quite a bit of time on the Arctic back in the old, old day, the Arctic two, the Arctic one.
Um, but, uh, as I haven't flown any of the more recent NIVX in that, in the, in that range, but I've heard good things about the Arctic. That's that's great.
Yes. That's, I mean, I mean, I like this glider. I like very much this glider. Uh, this is a good glider. It's comfortable to fly. Also, if you change a bit from the early versions, it was a bit. More aggressive. I mean, changed a bit of the lines. It's a bit less, but still very well sorted out. Very nice glider.
Okay. Uh, how about these?
Well, these, I, um, I liked very much the M six. I had the M six and then I got the LM six, the light version of the M six, which is, uh, an improvement a bit in the turbine conditions. It was a really nice glider. This impressive D glider. I don't think till now, uh, there is a competitive, uh, D glider into the market, maybe a few, but not really getting, uh, better than this one. And the Xeno, the Xeno is of course my best glider is, um, it's the best glider to fly. It's a, it's a, um, very soft in reaction, very competitive.
It has everything. I mean, this is the most. Uh, efficient glider in ABC, of course, and the D gliders, the D category, I mean, yeah.
Is anybody else, um, yeah, the Xeno has just taken the world by storm. Isn't it? Hasn't it? It really isn't. I have to give it to them. It's an amazing glider. What is anybody else, uh, threatening in that space right now, in your opinion?
I mean, I flew, uh, some of the two liners, uh, the new generation two liners. I mean, yes. Of course they are really close. I mean, it's really close. Some of them are a bit faster than the Xeno. And, uh, this forward speed, uh, sometimes helps maybe in getting more. If you don't push the bar often, but they are very close, not really. I, I mean, I prefer still the Xeno for the time. Hmm.
Tell us how you approach testing. How, how, you know? You get a new glider, um, take me through what you do with it. Uh, you know, how, how do you assimilate opinions with, in different air, you know, in different conditions, um, you, you, you, you, you, you document your process quite well on your website, but I, I just, if you could run us through a summary of how you do it, um, that would be useful.
Yeah. Yes, of course. It's look, it's very easy, uh, for me here flying in this small. In the same area for a very long time in the same spot in the place I know for 30 years, top landing, swapping gears on the same day, very often. I mean, 30 minutes flying one hour flying, come top land, get another wing. Um, let me understand better the abilities of a certain glider. That's the feeling of the wing, uh, and the same condition of course, of the day. And, uh, then I will. Fly next to a friend of mine with a reference glider reference glider. I mean, in the big category, I keep always a reference glider on a certain size.
Okay. Maybe. Okay. And in the CEO category also, and I keep, uh, on the DS reference glider, maybe on the D I'm capping at the Zeno on the sea. I'm keeping, I don't know, I have three gliders now. I don't know what to keep. I mean, if I keep the Alpina or the Bonanza or the. The gin is the same, I will keep one. Uh, so in the B category, I have the rush five and I fly next to a friend with same load type. We put ballast to, to, to be on the same load. And I tried to be on the same size. Of course I try to be not always possible, but I'll try. And the sizes are not really from the S to the large.
No, it's SMS. That's it. Or the same size or only. One size above.
And then, uh, I fly always in a moving air. I'm not, I don't make a comparison. You're not doing
slider flights. Okay. Okay. No,
no, we don't fly any, not any of us fly in Calmer. So in Calmer and, um, numbers on papers are really silly. You know, it's, uh, if, uh, if any pilots, if any pilots just get this GPS and go on the. Calmest of air and makes a glide, he understand that he cannot put any number because he will always get, um, minus 0.1, 0.2, uh, difference. And that glide will differ from a nine to a 9.5 to 8.8. So that
agreed. It's just a useless exercise. Yeah, totally
agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that, that's it. So, so I evaluate by my. See, like I look, we see how the glider ability can show what glider has the ability to serve the air better and the glider who's who, what glider move forward and gets a bit higher. Of course, it's a moving air, but we don't make only one glide. Um, so one, two or three glide are not enough to determine which glider is more efficient. Many attempts, um, are needed to evaluate, uh, their potential.
And what about. Uh, How are you judging, um, like, uh, safety characteristics? Are you, are you putting every glider you fly through, through some kind of a similar SIV? Are you stalling? Are you doing asymmetric? Are you doing kind of SIV stuff? Or is it mostly just fun flying, thermal flying, XC flying?
Well, no, I don't put it to SIV. So I don't stall the gliders. I don't spend them. I find the limit of the stalls. I'm I know when, when it's will stall. I release, I don't make a full store and I make, I make a frontals and, but the frontals in and asymmetric also I make, but all of them, all of those cannot really, if the pilots now are to know that, but that doesn't really represent the glider in moving air when, and they collapse because when I collapse the glider, my head are thinking that I'm collapsing the glider and I'm ready. And my muscles, my bottom muscles are ready to counter steer if I'm not thinking properly.
So I'm ready for the, for the collapse and, but collapses in real life are really much more different. And I got some collapses when I fly in turbulent air, some high rate, the gliders, and I was really, uh, you know, uh, surprised by the dynamics of those gliders that were tested. Before, uh, in calm air over the sea. So, uh, yeah, I mean, I see metrics and, uh, frontals, uh, induced asymmetric frontals. Doesn't show the real, uh, the real, uh, glider in the air, a bit of small picture, I think, uh, and in moving air in moving air, when you get to collapse, uh, maybe the, uh, the wing is a front of you.
Maybe it's a bit on the side, so it's all different.
I'm going to run a scenario by you. Uh, let's say tomorrow you and I get an invitation, uh, not tomorrow because it's the wrong time of year. Okay. Let's say it's July and you and I get an invitation to go fly, you know, some really cool part of the Alps together. Uh, so you've got to, you got to root yourself up from, from Lebanon, get on a plane. Uh, you know, you don't want, you can't take 10 gliders. You got to take one and one harness. Um, and, and you, it's you and I are going to go fly, you know, some really cool. Cool line across the Alps for a few days. Um, what would you take, uh, uh, harness wing, uh, maybe even instruments and, and why.
Well, if I'm going to go to fly with you and the ops, I'm going to take, uh, an Enzo four.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're flying for fun. We're flying for fun. Okay.
We're going
to go fly in the Dolomites and it's just, we're not trying to break any records. Uh, there's, you know, we're, we're, we're gaggle flying. We're, we're just having fun together. So,
I mean, yeah, I mean, I, I, I can take any, any of, uh, the available gliders I have here. Maybe I get a sea glider, I think.
Okay. But which, which one, which one and which harness, like which, you know, you must have a favorite for, you know, for just going to have a fun trip in a, in a part of the world where we don't have to worry about anything. Too much about, you know, hiking, like it doesn't have to be necessarily be lightweight kid. It's just for, for a fun flying vacation.
Well, I can get maybe, uh, which harness, I mean, there's lots of harnesses. I have, um, five harnesses here for testing, but I will get maybe the, um, I don't know if, uh, I have light harnesses. Maybe I get my own harness. I mean, I have a X rated six. I like this glider, this harness very much. And it's. It's practically my own harness for every day test flying.
Okay. But
if I want to get a light one, I will get the, uh, I have the Woody Valley GTO, the new one, the light. I mean,
it's, it's, it doesn't
have a seat board also, but it's, it's okay.
Hmm. And wing.
And wing, I'll get, uh, maybe the, the, uh, the Diviuk. Ah.
Excellent. Good, good answer. Good answer. Good answer.
Dominic will like it.
Yeah, he would, he would like it a lot. He'd like it a lot. Perfect. Okay. Um, okay. Let, let's switch to harnesses, uh, seat board or no seat board and, and why.
Okay. So the hammock style harnesses are really very comfortable. I mean, the, for the sitting position, for the back comfort, the lightness too, the Forza, the Empress 3, the Woody Valley GTO lights. But by the, but they do not provide the precision of a weight shift in turbulent air. I mean, the seat harness will let you, uh, lean on a, like on a stiff corner and lock yourself into a precise turn. You know, that, that kind of angle. And that's what I personally prefer, uh, the seat harness for the moment, you know, uh, that's, it's a personal, but I mean, I fly for fun with a seatless and I like them very much. But maybe for a high aspect ratio glider and, uh,
a competition glider, I will surely will prefer a seat harness. Hmm.
Hmm. There's some, there's some interesting work being done. I'm seeing like in the new, the new, uh, delight three, I guess it is in the new sub pair harness. They're using, you know, quite stiff, uh, exactly. Quite stiff underneath your butt. So it's almost like having a seat board. But I, I don't have personal experience with that. Are you noticing that that is, is it helping?
Well, look, the, the Forza doesn't have a seat board, but it's very easy to just open the, the zip and slide, um, carbon seat plate just over the protection. And when you sit with the protection, with the seat board, it gets a bit, uh, like you have a seat board, but I mean, it's not connected. Yeah. To the, uh, to the seat, uh, belts, to the belts, it's not connected to the belts. Don't you? So you feel, you feel it, but it's not as connected as a seat harness. The seat harness, uh, the, the seat board is connected is under the belt. Yeah. So you get all the, uh, the precise turn, but
it's okay. It's much better.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm kind of going through my own interesting, um, phase with, with. Harnesses because, you know, of course in the X-Alps, you fly the lightest, lightest stuff you possibly can, you know, in 2015, I flew the ice peak seven, um, the regular one, it wasn't even a light version. Uh, and then I, I flew with the strike, um, and I, and I'd flown the impress for, for quite a while, even in my early years of racing. And I, so I'm, I'm quite comfortable with the hammock harness, but I really feel like, um, I've maybe made a mistake there. I think, I think in this next. X-Alps, I think I'm willing to carry that, you know, very small additional weight of a carbon seat board and go with a seat board. Cause I, I agree with you.
I think when you're flying a higher aspect wing, you really need that extra feel.
Yeah. Because maybe of course that, um, you, anyone could fly maybe if not anyone, I mean, athletes like yourself can fly easy on a hammock harness and the competition wing, but you have to. Uh, yeah. To pay the extra, uh, the extra workout and maybe if in a competition, like the XL, maybe you, you will be happy not to pay those extra charges in the air. So if you, uh, if you can minimize the load, it's much, it will be much better. The load, the workload. I mean, yeah, it's much better if this compensate, if, if the harness compensate, uh,
the movement, they're all movement of the harness and it will have much less workout. I mean, you can maybe have more energy to, for another, uh, kilometers. I don't know. Hmm.
Hmm. Um, Zayed, I want to be mindful of your, your time. So we'll, we'll wrap things up here. This has been enormously educational and fun. I really appreciate it. Um, before we do, I, you, you, I know you listen to the podcast. Sometimes you've heard this question. You've
heard it before,
so maybe you're prepared for it, but, uh, if you could rewind the clock and for you, it's, it's a, it's a long rewind, 30 years, um, back to if you can kind of imagine where you were and what you were doing when you were a 50 hour pilot, it sounds like it was shortly after your, your French friend taught you how to ground handle and do a little bit of flying, then hand it off a comp glider to you. Um, what, what would you, what would you do differently or what, what advice would you have for the audience, uh, who are just starting out? You know, like when you look back at your own, uh, progression, uh, w would there be anything you would change?
Um, no, really no, because the best thing I remember is that I'm flying for fun from the first day I learned paragliding and the feeling of weightless, uh, field on the ground and soaring sometimes, this is the field I want to get, and this is the field I want to stay with me. So it's. So if anyone wants to fly beside competition, I mean, they have to find only for the, to fly for the pleasure, having fun. And that's maybe, I don't know, that's, that's my goal and I hope it will still be available.
So just fly for the fun. I like that. That works.
Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, if you can fly, uh, because I mean, in my country, I cannot really. Go, uh, very long XCs and those circuits I make, and that's, that's what I can do. So, I mean, if I want to stay here, I want to fly on a change wings and, uh, um, yeah, that's it. The field that I get from the wings, uh, I hope to get the most of the pleasure field when flying them. Hmm.
Love it. Zaya. Thank you very much. That was, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, a real pleasure. I've been smiling constantly for an hour. Uh, it's, it's, it's a real treat to, to speak to you quote unquote, well, not really in person here, but it's, it's nice to hear your voice. Uh, I feel like you and I know each other for many years of reading all your, your material, which is fantastic. Uh, we'll add all that to the show notes. I want to encourage people to again, go check out dust of the universe and, and read Zaya reviews and, uh, good luck there. And I, I do hope we get a chance someday to fly in the Alps. We're somewhere else in the world and, and, uh, yee-haw at the cloud base.
Yeah. Well, thank you, Gavin. Thank you for having me on this podcast. Really sorry for my English. Uh, but, uh, yes, of course it will be a great pleasure for me, uh, to fly with you wherever. And if you come over here also, so thank you very much.
Thank you. Appreciate it. Talk soon. Thank
you, Gavin. Thank you very much.
I hope you enjoyed that as always. Uh, if you're getting something out of the show, all we ask for is a buck show, uh, if you can afford it, uh, and you can do that as a one-time donation and don't just send us a buck. That's kind of silly. Cause PayPal takes a big chunk of it and, you know, wait till you've listened to 20 or something and make sure you really dig it. Uh, you can do that. If you go to the website, cloudbasedmayhem.com, you can see how to, uh, contribute to the show financially through PayPal, or you can set it and forget it through Patreon, which is a really cool way to, uh, you know, just contribute every time we put content out. So it's only. You only pay when something, when we create content and then you can be rewarded for doing so at various different levels. Uh, so that's kind of fun, but there are many other ways you can support the show. Uh, you can share it, you can blog about it, you can, uh, post it on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter or however you like to communicate.
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