Hi there everybody, welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. Got a great show for you today, sat down with Philippe Resende, the head of Flow Paragliders. I've had a lot of requests for him, he's down in Australia, down in the Sydney zone, and making some pretty wicked wings. The XC Racer has been a fun one to watch this season, their END, they've got a CCC glider coming out, another C glider coming out. Well, interesting to talk to a designer and somebody that starts a company in this crazy world of paragliding, and the biggest question was just why, how can you make a move in such a saturated market, but they're doing it. So, yeah, we get into his history, which is super fascinating, with his surf background and windsurfing background and kitesurfing background, so obviously a lot of parallels there.
He learned to fly in the Sertau, which I can't even... I can't even imagine in Brazil, like, most people go down there after they've gotten pretty good to fly in that kind of wind. I was down there about a year ago, so, yeah, great show there. Before we get fully into it, a couple pieces of housekeeping. Hugh Miller and Ed Ewing reached out to me recently. Many of you have probably heard about the tragedy in Indonesia with the tsunami and the earthquake and tsunami there that took out seven pilots, seven of our feathered friends. I think it was the first time they've ever been there, and there is a fundraiser for them, so the Cloud Base Foundation. You can find the link for it on the Cloud Base Foundation or on Cross Country's website, Cross Country Magazine website,
or in the show notes for this one. I'll have it up on the website as well, but they're trying to raise $60,000. I saw Ozone jumped in there with $15,000. I think they're up around $30,000, just to raise some money for their families. So, major tragedy. If you can, help out there. Those folks. Those folks would really appreciate it. Next, I thought I'd tell a little story about today. Some people really enjoyed the story from a little while back about my mistake of not flying with an in-reach that didn't lead to anything. It was just one of those kind of like silly things, good reminder. And I had another one today. Those of you who have been listening to it the last few episodes, we've been talking a lot about flow and some of those concepts. Another one that I've been thinking of a lot for decades, really, actually.
Many of you maybe have heard the story about my... I used to be really into whitewater kayaking and was doing a lot of first descents back in the day and running a lot of really hard creeks and really steep stuff and big waterfalls and that kind of thing. And spent a bunch of time down in Mexico and Guatemala one year. And I was paddling with a guy named Tao Berman, who went on to be a big Red Bull captain. He was a kayaker and I think he's now retired. But he was really at the top of his game for quite a while. Anyway, we were... I won't go into the whole story because maybe some of you have heard it. But I got pinned in a waterfall and it was pretty outstandingly scary and really should have died. I was underwater for more than five minutes. Anyway, we won't get into all of that.
But right before that happened and for days and days and days before it, I'd had this really prominent voice in my head that was just screaming at me. It was the whole... Actually, the whole trip. We were down there for a few months. And from the day I left... I was living in Colorado at that time. The day I left, it was just like, You're not coming home from this trip. You're not coming home from this trip. Every day. And it just was... It was spooky. It was really scary. I'd never had anything like that. And I had just assumed at that time that it was... That it was like... Because I hadn't been paddling a lot, I'd been working really hard that summer to make money to go on this trip. And so I was kind of off my game and I wasn't really tuned in. And so I just thought it was a matter of just getting the time and getting the practice and training and I'd get there.
But right when we got into it, we were running really hard stuff and really high consequence stuff. And this voice was just screaming at me. So anyway, a couple months later, I get pinned in this waterfall and this all happens. And when I came out of it, you know, this voice had one final thing to say to me. I have no idea where their voice was coming from. You know, I'm not a religious person. So it's, you know, it was... But anyway, that's what happened. And the voice came back and said, well, I hope from now on you're going to listen to me. I haven't really had that ever since then. And of course, I kind of made a contract with that voice that said, yeah, you bet. And I've been thinking a lot about the difference between, you know, I think we've all had it. Those kind of funny feelings when you head up to launch and, you know, you might have a vision in your head that's really not so nice.
Maybe not finding your reserve or, you know, imagining splatting on a rock or, you know, all the various things that make us a little nervous before we take off that I think are, you know, pretty natural. I've always tried to really listen to that to try to decipher. Is this, is this my gut trying to tell me something or is this just, you know, the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other, you know, on the one side, it's just natural to kind of think some bad thoughts and hopefully you can brush them away and, you know, conquer it with good thoughts and, you know, Hey, I've done the training. It's a good day. This is just that little stuff I need to push to the side and get after it versus, you know, a proper gut feeling that is trying to, you know, get your attention.
And I don't exactly, I don't have an answer for you. I don't know how to decipher between the two. Maybe some of you listen to this or, or intrigued by this or have your own experience with this. I'm sure many of you have reach out to me and let me know what you think. But I had one today that was pretty interesting. I've, you know, I'm training pretty hard right now for the X-Alps have been for a while. And today was supposed to be a big vertical day with a couple of flights down and then more vertical. And the first one up was about 3000 feet. And that was all fine. And when I got out of the car, I was surprised at how windy it was. It was not a very nice day, but, and I thought, okay, well, you know, I'll just walk down. It's, it's not going to be flyable, but I always have my gear because it should be hiking with it anyway. And it's a hill right outside my house when I do a million times.
And on the way up, it was pretty gusty and pretty swirly and not very nice. But then as I got to the top, it was pretty, you know, it was not recreational flying by any means, but it was, you know, it seemed pretty doable. The angle wasn't great, but it was, you know, it was kind of blowing down the valley. So it was a little bit cross from where the launch is. But I thought, yeah, you know, I need to do this. It's good training. You know, I need to do as much of this kind of weird stuff as possible, as long as it's safe. And so I unpacked and got all harnessed up and ready to go. And there was just this very kind of unsettling, this isn't, something's not right here. So I stopped and I waited for probably 15 minutes to just watch the weather and watch the clouds. And it was kind of dumping out over the pass,
20 miles up the range from where I was. And that looked a little concerning, but it was kind of like, you know, you could feel it. Most of the time it was okay. And then sometimes it was blowing really pretty hard. And, you know, it wasn't, it's fall here, it's cold. These weren't really thermal cycles. These were just, you know, little gusts coming down the valley. So, you know, I definitely knew it was going to be spicy, but I thought I could just get off this ridge, fly it over the valley, and, you know, get down real fast, land at the car, get to that place and do another hike. And anyway, sat there for about 15 minutes and kind of tried one more time and then put the wing back down and listen to that gut thing again. And because this time it was a little bit louder.
And I was like, yeah, there's no point here. This, this just doesn't, something's wrong. Something doesn't feel right. I can definitely fly in this weather, but something's not right here. And so I packed up, you know, I took it over the other side of the hill where it was kind of out of the wind more and packed up and started walking down and not 90 seconds later. So I would have totally been in the air and started blowing probably close to 50 and miles an hour and really swirly, super dicey, probably survival, but, you know, would have been really scary and not a lot of fun and pretty risky. So, yeah, just interesting. I think that they, you know, listen to your gut and try to learn how to decipher between those just little things that you can shake off
and not have to listen to, you know, they're just distractions and something real because sometimes your gut knows. Yeah, interesting. Hope you find it interesting. Let's have this talk with Philippe. It was, I've had a lot of requests for him and it's pretty cool that he's grinding out some space in this very crowded space and making, making pretty interesting gliders and it was interesting to talk to him and get his take on how that all happened and how his history led into it and thoughts on where paragliding may or may not be going and, yeah, there's a lot here. I think you're going to enjoy this. So, without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Philippe Rezende, the head man at Flow Paragliders.
Philippe, awesome to have you on the Mayhem, man. I'm glad we made this work. It's been almost a year since I was flying with you down in Bright at the, at the World Cup and some of your wings were getting a lot of attention. That was pretty exciting and I, I remember our, our talk very vividly. I got to tell you, I'm a little bit gun-shy on the podcast. I think your, your mind works at a whole nother level and, you know, so we'll get into Flow and we'll get into why you're, why you've become a paragliding designer but I thought as a good kind of introduction to you and, and to the listeners so they get to know you a little bit, why don't we start with a, with a story? Just, you know, your most memorable flight, your most, you know, something that still brings you a lot of smiles. It could be maybe a flight, just the one that kind of first pops into your mind.
Hi, pleasure to be here with you. I think one of the most memorable, memorable flights I had was when I decided not to follow roads anymore in Manila and that was my first 200K flight. There was a point in the flight where I was either just not following roads anymore and, and committing to a, to a line really deep into the boonies and, and that paid off and I was, my, my first ever 200K flight landing at sunset. Yeah, that was a, an incredible moment and, that was a, like a,
what do you say, like a page turner because after that, every flight I didn't look to, to fly on, follow roads anymore. Yeah, that's, yeah, that made a whole different, open up a whole different world for me for actually flying.
That's a great lesson, isn't it? I've never flown Manila, but I flew Daniloquin, let's see, when was this? It was, I was training for the 2015 race and I came down to visit Bruce in Daniloquin, I guess it was that December, so it would have been December 2014, I guess, and did a couple weeks of flatlands there and I remember Sebastian Benz was there and he'd been there quite a bit. He's, you know, he's made a real, that's almost kind of his winner spot and, and I remember, I don't remember how it came up in the conversation, but he was like, you want, you want to know the trick for flying down here? You can't even think about the roads. You gotta, you gotta fly the sky, which is super committing. I don't know what Manila's like, but down there in Daniloquin, which I'm sure you've flown, it's like, you know, sometimes the skies line up pretty well with the roads, but when they don't, that's some pretty serious terrain when it comes to the heat.
You forget
the easterly flows when you fly further west. Yeah. There's a, there's a, there's a spot there that you can either just go following the roads towards Muri or you just go, keep on going west and it's big, really big farms and just not many roads, you know, and if you land early, it's just a big walkout because, yeah, and And
that walking and that, I guess Manila's also pretty hot, but in, in downtown Iloquen, I mean, that could be kind of life-threatening, I thought. I mean, if you landed in the middle of the day and you had to walk for hours, I mean, the better call would be to try to find something to, but I mean, it was, you know, some kind of tree and just wait until night and then walk, but it was, you know, every once in a while I'd come across these, like, you know, dried out watering holes and there'd be, like, 20 dead kangaroo. I was like, man, these guys are built for this. I'm not. Exactly.
Well, that's it. That's a perfect tie. Before we started recording, you were saying, I didn't know that you, I mean, I knew you grew up in Brazil, but I didn't know that you learned to fly in the Sertão, so let's talk about that. Talk about Tori, talk about how you, how you got into all this absurdity.
Yeah, I was born in Brazil and then moved to Australia 15 years ago, but my first flights I had in the most challenging place in Brazil and one of the most challenging places in the world because when I first started, I started flying on the coast and then I realized that some of the hang gliders were flying land and I was like, wow, what's going on there? You can actually catch thermals and fly distance and I wanted to check out, but the main reason why all the paragliders didn't go in land was because it was too windy, but I didn't care. I just went, well, I just went with them and...
With the hangies. And then I came with the hangies, yeah. I actually flew hangies for two years and then I had a big crash and became a bit intimidated by hang gliders and I always felt more comfortable with a paraglider so I just stuck to paragliding. Give me a year here
and how old were you?
It's probably early, my early 20s, like 20, 21, yeah. And
what year was that?
That was the, it was after, after it's been a year in the States, I was 21 when I came back, yeah, 21, 22. So the year between 1999 and the year 2000. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah.
And how did you, how did you discover, how did you discover flying? Did you, did you discover it there in Natal in Brazil on the coast or are you, oh no, you said you discovered it in San Diego.
Yeah, exactly. So I was living in Natal and I just wanted to go traveling a bit so I went traveling and it's, it's been, I think, about nine months in San Diego and I was a really keen surfer at that time, surfing most afternoons at Black's Beach and looking up to Torrey Pines and seeing all these paragliders flying and at one moment I was kind of, I remember like, ah, just mesmerizing looking, just watching the paragliders flying and not catching many waves. I was like, oh, what's going on? And, just got, you know, like this really strong attraction to, to the flying world kind of thing and that's the first thing I did when I went back to Brazil was to,
ah, I, I knew a friend who, who was a hang glider and he also, ah, paraglider and he taught me how to fly because there was no schools, there was no instructors in the town ah, and, and that's how I got, ah, in touch with, with, with paragliders and, and he knew, I think, some of the soul guys who were chasing world records, ah, he, he told me about it so I went there to check out, ah, what the, those guys were doing and I was like, oh, wow, what, what is going on here? You guys waking up, you know, ah, before sunlight and, and, and driving up the hill and flying this, ah, 50K hour winds and, ah, I was like, wow, ah, those guys eventually became really good friends and, ah, um,
and they taught me some, um, some good lessons and, and I did my first, ah, XC flights from, from Plateau and to SEMA, ah, remember the moment I was, I had, at that time I had a ENA glider and, and get blown over the back flying in the afternoons because I never really took off in the mornings, ah, like they, they did, um, so I was, I was hanging out in Plateau. just too
windy or, why weren't you taking off? Yeah,
it was just, I was, I was too windy and it was, you know, it was another level, ah, it was, it was really the first, like, maybe first year when I, ah, because they were there, they were there for like a month, you know, um, ah, they were, they were pretty hardcore in the early days, they would break barriers, ah, trying to experiment, experiment, like taking off earlier and earlier in the day, ah,
and I was, at that time, flying a ENA glider, my glider just couldn't have the penetration that the, the comp gliders that they were flying, ah, had back then, ah, and, and then the gliders they were flying, it was, it was scary, it was super snaky, you know, ah, yeah, you know, comp gliders, different, open class gliders, ah,
yeah, so yeah, I had that experience of, ah, getting blown over the back and, and, and, and the glider all over the place, ah, so can you imagine, like, the road up from Patu? No,
I just, I, I can't imagine learning there, I mean, I, I, we were saying, you know, before we started recording, I, I, I took my first trip down to the Sertau last year and cut my teeth in Tasima, which is just, God, ah, that place is really tough, I have so much respect for Raph and those guys for, for making that work, I think, Raph was saying that they put in like 37 days for three flights, you know, I mean, it's just such an impossible waiting game because the forecasts seem to be useless and then, you know, your first move is that you take that little 3K bench back to the cliff wall and then you got to get 40K over that plateau and, and it's howling, it's so windy, you know, and I mean, the day is not on by any means yet and, ah, ah, such a hard start and then, ah, you know, so I mean,
and, and I, I felt like I was pretty lucky but, but, ah, I, I saw a lot more good flights from Patu but I, I never did get to fly there but I heard it was really intense, you know, often kind of cross and, I mean, you know, kind of like Kishida, like a lot of wind, you know, and, and you gotta be on it. Yeah, a lot of
wind, yeah, yeah, yeah, especially like early in the mornings, you know, when you, when the cloud base is low and it's windy and the climbs are broken, you know, you're really verticalizing, you're just drifting with, with, with, with bubbles. Yeah. Yeah, um, I, I have a huge respect of these guys, you know, like they, they, they still go there, they're still there right now, chasing world records. Yeah. It's pretty impressive. It is impressive. That's, well, that, that moment, that memory I have, it's like from 15 years ago, Frank Brown and, and, and these guys. Yeah. Yeah.
It's, yeah, it's amazing. That, that wasn't my game. I was kind of, I was, I was over it pretty quick. I was like, man, I just didn't look when it was the same way. I mean, I'm always surprised that those guys go back over and over again. Cause I mean, it's just, you know, you're sitting in the tow paddock and it's so hot and the flies and, and then, you know, if you, if you, if you pull one off, it's fantastic, but then you've got this insanely long drive home. And I mean, I just, I don't know. I like mountains.
It's like, it's like running a marathon, right? It is. Yeah, it is. There's all the preparation behind it and all that. Yeah, it
really is. And it's really just about it. It really is about the patient's game, isn't it? I mean, it's, I, you know, obviously those guys have a lot of talent and, you know, there's talents involved, but it really seems like it's just hooking into the right day. And, you know, getting off the hill at the right time and making it work. And, you know, they've, they've proven that team flying they're doing is amazing. We, we got, we were lucky to fly with Donizete this summer and Chelan and stuff. And he, man, he is a good pilot.
Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing that the team flying thing, because I got, I don't know, when Sol had a team, I was part of that team and, and I flew XC with those guys. And I was so impressed with the way they flew, because if one of them, you know, got a better line and, and got advantage of height, that person would spiral down and fly back to us, to stay in the same level and fly as a group, as a team. And that opened up my eyes. I was like, wow, this is what team flying is all about, you know, communicating. And sometimes you're in two different thermals and just like, oh yeah, two and a half year, one and a half year. And then they, you know, they join the better thermal and that makes flying so much more efficient, exciting because, you know, a loan is kind of by itself.
I think that's the key. And we, we haven't really figured that out here. We're really trying. We learned a lot from Donizete this summer because he, we had one day in Chelan where they canceled the day and it was actually a pretty good day. It was just pretty windy at launch and they made the right call. It was kind of dicey, but, but you know, a few of us got, got away and, and, and, and he, he was, he was quite a ways out in front of me at the start. I was never able to pick them up cause they were, they were flying pretty fast. And, uh, but the two guys flying with him, uh, Mitch Riley, who else was with them? Matt Hensie, somebody else, but they were, they really learned a lot, but that's, that's kind of new to us. You know, we, we, we fly independently and especially on those big days, you just, you know, you're always just like, ah, and then you lose it, you know, but they've, they've proven that it's just so much more efficient and, you know, that's such a better way to, to, to, to click off miles and kilometers.
Cause you're,
you're going to, you're going to get out. Yeah. Exactly. Yes.
And, and Donizetti has his amazing sticks and, and he's really has big balls, you know, because he's committing to sometimes some of this, uh, this long glides and flying low. And he, most of the time he pulls it off and gets a climb. It's pretty amazing. Yeah. Um, that was the thing that
really impressed me about that. That's also why I can't believe you learn there. It must be, it's intense. It's not like, it's not like you're just flying over sand. I mean, the Sir Tao is, really serious terrain. I mean, and with that much wind, there were a lot of times where it was like, man, I have, I really need a climb here. I mean, it's not, it's not for the faint of heart.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, at that time when I got exposed to actually flying, I was, I was a really keen surfer and I had just gone back. Uh, okay. I just had a, a year and a half off where, uh, I spent six months in Hawaii and, and I was a keen surfer looking for podcasts for big waves and sometimes chase. So, I was seeing big waves and stuff and, and there was a completely different, um, uh, like, you know, surfers, you, you, you, you really in touch with nature and you challenged by the elements. And, um, and it's not every surfer that's attracted by big wave surfing and, and looking for the swells. Um, and then all of a sudden I got, I got exposed to the pair gliders, which, uh, in a completely different environment, um,
they're flying, but it's almost the same kind of approach, the same kind of, um, um, interaction with nature. You know, you've been challenged by the elements and you have sometimes this, uh, magic day, um, that you look at the forecast and the forecast is coming and you're like, you'd be, have to be ready. You wake up early in the morning before sunlight. And it's exactly the same as this, what the surfers do, you know, it's just, um, in a completely different element instead of being water you in the air. And, and that was fascinating for me. I just wanted to explore more. And it's been, and now it's, it's my life and it's, yeah, I don't even surf as much as I used to anymore. And I don't chase big swells anymore, but I, I'm still always looking at the forecast for the good day to go, to go XC flying.
You know what I mean? Do you think,
do you think there's much, I know exactly what I mean. Cause I spent a lot of time, you know, the ocean and kiting and surfing, and I'm always, I'm always more of a surfer than a, than a kiter. But, but, um, tell me about how that's, how that has maybe influenced you being a pilot, you know, that those years you spent when surfing and surfing and, you know, kind of interacting with water. Cause I've always had a theory that all the years I spent sailing and kiting was, was really, uh, really helped me understand flying, but it's kind of hard to communicate. Um, I don't, you know, it's one of those things where I kind of feel, but I don't know how to, um, have you ever thought about that? I'm sure you have.
Um, yes, I think, I don't know. I don't know if I can explain putting words into words, but I think it's to understand that like each day is different, um, and to adapt to that day, um, and, and being tuned with nature and, and in tune and tuning into the day. I think the more experience you get into, into flying, you kind of, it's naturally, it's a natural, uh, uh, skill that you acquire, I guess. Um, and, and, but, uh, but I think predicting a good day, it's an art itself. Some, some pilots are really good into looking at forecasts and different models and, um, and what to do for the day. And, and, and that's another art itself, right?
Uh, to look at forecasts, but, um, to fly the conditions they are, they're presented to you. Um,
it's, it's, it's, it's one of those things that, you know, um, I don't know if it's related, it came from surfing or not, but, um, I just try to make the most of the day.
Gavin, sorry, maybe I got lost a little bit there. No, no, no,
it's, it's, it's a really, it's a really tricky question. Cause I mean, well, it's a tricky thing to even talk about. And I, I, I think this is gonna, you know, perfectly segue down the line. I don't want to yet, but into flow and, and, you know, uh, not only the state of flow, but your company flow. And I'm sure there's some parallels there, but, um, before we get there,
there's something I wanted to say. Okay. Um, yeah. So, uh, about XC flying, I, I, you know, I, we have a group here on Sydney that, uh, the pilots that we always fly together in the chain, these guys, uh, we, I was, uh, organized, uh, weekends away and flew together. And I was, I was well known to, um, either have, have my radio off all the time or not talk as much because, um, I always felt that on XC flights, especially on those mellow days where, uh, the, the climbs are not so strong. It's just nice cruisy days. You know, you fly into your sunset in the middle of summer. I, I felt that I almost went into this, um,
uh, instead of, I can say maybe instead of flow where time it's not relevant. And, and you just in the groove, you're just connecting climbs after climbs, after climbs, and you completely immersed, immersed in this environment of flying. And you just, yeah, it's a strange feeling, but, uh, it's like you're most in a trance kind of, uh, uh, mode. And it's, and I felt that sometimes I'm on the radio talking too much, rely on a position to the retrieved driver. I don't get into that mode. Um, and I really like to be in that mode sometimes, uh, just drifted with the wind and beyond that, uh,
flow state. Um, you can say that, um, and, and, and connecting sometimes, um, uh, I remember one year I was flying with Che and Che every climb he found, he found the core. He was, he was, um, like, yeah, on it. And at that, that, yeah, I wasn't. Um, and it happens from, uh, from time to time. And I feel that I'm really switched on and I can get, I find the climbs, uh, and the causes straight away. But some years I just, I'm not there. Um, I don't know why.
Hmm. God, I'd like to ask you more about that. Cause I think everybody listening would like to know why, but I think, I think for, for those of us who spend a lot of time flying XC, we're all just nodding our heads right now going, yep. Yeah. Sometimes that's like that, you know what I mean? Even Chrigel, you know, I had him on the show and he was, he was talking about that. He often really has a hard time climbing, you know, he's the best pilot in the world. That's just, yeah. Sometimes you have it and you're sitting on top of everybody. And sometimes you're like, why can't I do this?
Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing, isn't it? Sometimes it's super confident and you know, we're going to get the next one and you get it. And it's like that confidence that brings you, um, yeah, you love every client, but sometimes it just doesn't work for you.
So Philippa, you know, before we started recording, you were talking about that, you know, a big part of your, um, you know, paragliding design came from a place that I didn't, I didn't really initially draw the conclusion. I didn't, I didn't really get it. You said it came from, um, your history with shaping boards. So let's, let's talk about that. How did, how did that all start and how did you get from there to paragliding?
Okay. So I grew up, I grew up in Natal. Um, and since I was little, I, I, I, I surf and, uh, it was, it was, it's, it's from me. It's a deep, deep inside of me that I'll always be interested to create things, designing things, uh, making things. So,
uh, my late teens, uh, early twenties, I just started making surfboards as a hobby, um, in, uh, my dad's, uh, backyard. And then when I moved to Australia, it was, uh, I was already knew how to design and how to shape boards and glass boards. So I, I got a job pretty quickly. If one of the biggest Australian shapers, uh, where, where I am here, there's a big surfboard industry. Um, and, and down the track, I had the chance to open my own workshop, uh, making flow, flow surfboards, which were very successful for about eight years. Um, from there onwards, uh, surfboards, uh, became,
uh, I was in, uh, uh, in a crossroads between, uh, going bigger, uh, or going somewhere else. And, uh, and I decided to go somewhere else because of the fumes and the resin, uh, uh, attacking me as a, my health. So I decided to go, um, and go back to architecture and, and, and design kites. Um, uh, so close of boards, um, no longer exist. I still make boards, uh, for friends. Um, I just designed them in the computer and I, uh, get someone to glass them. Um, and today we just have the kites, uh, flow kite boarding.
Um, still, we still, we still, uh, fascinating, uh, company. Uh, so it's very low key. Uh, we make, uh, one kite, which is, uh, all terrain kite. Um, and, um, yeah.
How does, how does your, how does shaping boards and, you know, kind of going through that whole process and I, I, uh, hats off to you for getting out of it. Cause the health side, I know I've, I've been involved in that a little bit myself. That's just brutal. I ran boats for a long time and dealing with fiberglass is pretty toxic stuff. But, um, how did you, and, and by the way, I had no idea that I always thought flow, uh, paragliders was like either, you know, chicks sent me highs flow state or, you know, or, you know, flow like airflow through the air. So that's kind of cool to, to know that it actually came from, from waves, uh, and from water. But, uh, but yeah, how, how, how do you think that kind of experience and that kind of background and shaping, um, lent to your understanding of design and design of paragliders?
Um, yeah, I, I think it's all about fluids, uh, water, air. It's just a different density. Um, and making surfboards gave me days. There's amazing opportunity to make 10 different prototypes a week. That's what I, what I was doing. It was pretty much doing custom made boards. Um, so every, every week I would make 10 different boards. Um, so I had a really deep understanding about what small changes would create in the, in the water. Um, and that, uh, gave me, um, a visual picture. What, uh, like a fluid, fluid, fluid dynamics really do through an F oil or how a wing would be a behave in the air. Um, and, and, you know, before I designed a glider, I tried to visualize, uh, trying to picture how it would fly, how would all this little, um, uh,
how, yeah, how it would work. You know what I mean? Um, and there's, there's another, um, let's say chapter in my life where I got exposed to, to the fluid dynamics a little when I was, I used to, um, when I, in my early teens, teenage, teenage, teenage years, I used to be a swimmer and we used to put underwater cameras to analyze our stroke and how, how it could make, uh, the old water entry more efficient by analyzing in slow motion. I was struck under the water, you know, and, and, and then I felt in my own skiing, how those little changes wouldn't affect to make it more, uh, um, efficient. I think this combination of experiences I had in life led me to, uh, design, design the gliders I do today, I guess, you know, a little with the study of architecture as well.
And, you know, and yeah, the interaction I had with all the other professionals, um, had some friends, uh, working in aviation industry, some friends that work, uh, with engineering. Sometimes I need to, uh, work together with them. For example, uh, when I designed the XC Racer in the section of the glider where they have five or four or five, uh, supported cells. And I wanted to know how to place the diagonals properly so they can share the load. And it, it, it acts the same as same way as a, as in a bridge. And they, those guys gave me a very, uh, important insights, um, how to do it properly. Fascinating. So, uh, so when I, yeah, so when I designed the gliders, it's, uh, the main concept is it's, it's me, but I, I have a lot of people behind me that help me.
So when I don't understand about, uh, a topic, I, I, I, I search and, and, and I ask for, uh, proper skills, proper, you know, proper people to give me, to give me, uh, uh, knowledge I need to. Yeah. Interaction is, uh, very important.
Yeah, of course. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. So, so back then you were, so you were flying then. You were about, you were, you were into flying and at that point.
Yeah, I was, I was, I was, it was, uh, surfing was always my biggest passion and flying was more like a weekend hobby. Um, uh, I was flying when the conditions were good. And was the, was the kiting
just kind of an obvious, you know, was that just an adjunct from, from your years growing up windsurfing? Was it, was it just like, cause most, you know, a lot of windsurfers just crossed over into kiting because it was a natural, you know, it's, it's like the ski snowboarding thing, but was that what it was for you as well? Or was it more of this kind of, uh, because surf, uh, did, did surf leave, lead you to kites or did windsurfing lead you to kites?
Oh, it was kind of the same. I, I think I started surfing first and then because, you know, it was always so windy that surfing was, wasn't great. Uh, but, uh, it was amazing for windsurfing. Um, and, uh, after that trip to,
to, uh, Maui where I got exposed to a lot of windsurfing, uh, to the highest level and hanging out with all the pros and, uh, you know, my heroes, um, I came back, uh, even more keen, uh, uh, windsurf. But it was during that time where a lot of people were shifting, uh, shifting from windsurfing to kitesurfing. And I, and I was left alone, uh, just windsurfing by myself. And I, I resisted, resisted until there was, you know, no point to windsurf anymore. And so, and then, and then I learned to kitesurf. And, and then, and then a new sport again, and all the fascination, fascination be, be, begun. Um, um, yeah. So when I decided to start making surfboards, um, I wanted to do something new.
And then I decided to just design kites, um, because my neighbor was designing kites and was helping him to tweak, to test prototypes. And, and he introduced me to the... Were
these inflatables or foils?
They're all inflatable kites. Yeah. Um, yeah. So and then I started making my own protos. Um, and at the same time playing with the, um,
uh, w, w, w, w, the software that, um, designed, designed pergolettas as well. Um,
I don't know if it's the timeframe's a little bit confusing, but everything was happening all at the same time. Uh, during that time, I was competing internationally, um, Additionally, in PWCs, at that time, my paragliding, flying, I became a better and better pilot. And I was sponsored by Sol, and I was part of the Sol team, and I had a really good understanding about competition flying. And I was part of the team, I don't know, in direct contact with the Sol designer, giving feedback about the tracer series.
So this is kind of mid,
we're kind of mid-2000s now then?
Yeah, yeah, mid-2000s, exactly, yeah, mid-2000s. Give
the listener a little background here on what it takes. And then the obvious question is, why in the world would you want to get into this business?
Yeah, it's one of those things.
I had this strong fascination. It was, making surfboards was easy, you know. It's complex, it's a complex design, it was full of curves. But then I realized that, yeah, I was making good boards. And then the next big challenge was designing kites. And all of a sudden, I was designing kites. And people were happy with. But then the paragliders were something, they were way more complex. And I was a little bit reluctant at first to embark on that journey to design paragliders. But at the same time, there was this strong fascination where one of those things, you know, I just couldn't live life without doing it.
I just had to try it. And my wife, one day, she asked me, like, oh, what do you see yourself doing? And I was like, I didn't want to say to her because it sounded so far away. But the only thing that I could think of was to design paragliders. She asked me the same question again, maybe a couple weeks after. And then I said, look, the only thing I can see is to design paragliders. And then she looked in my eyes and she was like, that's what you're going to do. And at that time, I learned how to use this software properly. And I had a few prototypes. So I got together with a couple other guys and we decided to, yeah, start.
At first, we decided to make little mini wings to fly here on the coast on strong winds. And that was a big challenge because those conditions are pretty full on at times. It can be the wind can be.
You know what it's like flying strong winds. You need a wing that's collapse resistant. And so we worked a lot on the right tensioning and the right airfoils. A lot of people ask me how I came to become a paraglider designer. I think you don't all of a sudden become you have a set of skills that you can then design a paraglider. I think your experiences in life. And that leads to then to have the experience enough to design a paraglider. I think that's what happened to me because I had my years of making surfboards and then in the exposure to design kites.
And then my background is that I was an architect working of all the cat based softwares and things like that. And if you want to design something, you do your research first. You learn everything. You think about that project before you actually start the design phase. So and that what happens with me in paragliding, if I want to design a new glide, I do all my research. I, I, I learn a lot. I try to learn as much as I can for that specific project. For example, let's say that the class glider actually race. I did a lot of research before I could start the first, you know, drawing the first line.
So when you, this software, so let's just take the XC Racer as a, as a, as a first example. You know, when you, when you, with the software, how much can you do there before you got to build a wing? I mean, can you, can you do so much there that you can be like, okay, this thing is going to get X glide ratio and it's going to weigh this much. And I mean, I'm just clueless, you know, can you give us a brief broad stroke of, of that? And then what, you know, what are the costs? What are the costs involved, uh, you know, to, to bring something like that to, to market?
Yeah. Okay. The software is basically a designer's pencil. It's just, uh, it just aids you. It's just software to help you to design. It doesn't do any predictions. It doesn't do any simulations. It's just that for you to design it. Um, uh, I think early in the early days of paragliding, people used to design paragliders by hand, right? Uh, now we have it. It's a 3d, uh, software that you design in 3d and it's super like a, as a pro designer, it makes your life. It's so easy. And, and the software I use, um, uh, it makes life easy because what you see is what you get there. So all the software is there that you have to make a few prototypes to, to get what you want.
Okay. So your,
your, your software is, is unique to you. You know, Ozone, Nivea. They've all got their own software or some of them using the same that others do.
No, I think the one I use is the one that's mostly widely used right now. It's the, yeah, it's called, uh, it's called surf plane. Um, it's made by an Australian, um, designer. I mean, he, this guy is incredibly smart and, uh, is this, yeah, he makes the software that's in industry standard now. I think most of them. Manufacturers, uh, use the software. Um, okay. And it's, and it's, yeah, you, you pay the subscription, um, per year and it's not cheap. Uh, so there's, it's, uh, this, the first cost as the, uh, you have to pay for the software, uh, and then you have to pay for the, uh, the prototypes.
Um, and then you have, and after the prototypes, you have to pay for certification. Certification can be really expensive. Uh, if you. Let's say, uh, just, just cost, uh, if you're going to design for, for gliders, uh, the cost is, uh, something around a hundred thousand dollars. Um, yeah. So there's a bit of investment there, uh, for you to start. Um,
was that a big part of, did you guys kind of, was it, was the cart before the wheel in a sense? Did you guys, did you just start designing and then, then worry about the money or did you, were you able to convince some investors that you were the one that. You know, to get behind and, and then, you know, how, how does, how does that all work? And you don't have to answer that, but that's just curious.
Yeah, it was, yeah, it was, in the beginning it was just, it was a project. It was just something fun. I just, I started alone in the beginning and then I attracted attention to my friends and some people, more people jumped aboard. But in the beginning it was just something that was a challenge. I just want to do it and see if I could, uh, make design for gliders. And, and all of a sudden the mini wings were really good. And then I made. Like a XC glider, like a NC type of glider that I, you know, I had a few flights who were as good as any other SID fight wings, the same type of specifications out there and they were super safe. I could push really hard and I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, I actually, I can actually design gliders, um, and the glider is actually good. So, and then, then when the idea of making something commercially commercially, uh,
uh, became, and then, then, then. And we started to get serious and so, okay, let's, let's do this and let's make a project. Um, and, um, we took, we didn't, we didn't brush things. We, we, we were very low key for the first three, four years, just to make sure we could have released the NC glider much, much earlier. But, uh, I just thought that there were a few things that I wanted to learn to explore before we could go, um, uh, let's say, um. Worldwide, because we were offering the gliders, uh, especially the yachty, the mini wing, the strong winds in Australia for the first three years. And then since December last year, we decided to go, um, yeah, let's, uh, let's, uh, let's set file this gliders that we have and, and then go global.
And that's, uh, that's, uh, that's, uh, and I've been doing this full time since December last year, because before it was not really, um, I had to, you know, have my. My day job to, to, to pay for the pro, uh, prototypes and, and, and all that. But, um, yeah, so it's a, it's a, it's a real thing now and it's been, uh, I'd say it's successful. We receiving a lot of feedback. The, the X eraser has been doing really well internationally in competitions and, and feedback from all the gliders being really good too.
So we went through this period, you know, after, after ozone, you know, kind of created the shark nose. 2009, um, and you know, the, there was the kind of open class, I don't know what you want to call it, debacle or whatever. I mean, it was just, you know, it's been, it's been a really interesting for a few years. And, um, you know, the, the manufacturers that were making, uh, competition gliders were trimmed down to really, uh, you know, ozone, gin, Nivea. And there's been, I've heard really interesting arguments on both sides of this, that on, on the one hand, you know, statistics say that, you know, you guys as companies making wings, you know, your focus needs to be the ENBs because there's, that's the most wing that's sold.
I mean, in order, in order, in order to make money, you want to sell lots and lots of the bees because that's, that's the bigger market. Right. But the, the argument has been that, you know, for those companies that are really playing a serious ball at the competition and that that technology passes down through. Um, but then you, you've got this other argument that, you know, well, yeah, but Skywalk and Nova and UP and they're all doing okay. And they don't, well, actually UP does now, but they didn't for a long time, you know, um, play in that kind of market because the competition end is, you know, it's very difficult or not, or impossible. And I correct me if I'm not saying anything, right. This is just what I hear. I don't, I'm, I'm not at your end of the thing. So I don't, I don't understand this, this playing field nearly as well as you do, but it'd be, it's hard to make money at the competition.
So it's, I've, I've heard, you know, that it's on the one hand, it's because, you know, people like Luc Armant just love playing in that, you know, that end of the sandbox. Um, but on the other end, it also passes down through your D's and C's and B's and A's and your school gliders. Um, what do you think about all that?
Yeah, I think you're right. Um, the high-end gliders, uh, there's, there's a lot of breakthroughs there in terms of, uh, uh, technology.
And, uh, yeah, it definitely passes down to this, to the low-end class gliders, uh, in terms of, uh, performance that you can get from those, uh, like, let's say the B gliders. Um, yeah, it's, uh, there's a lot of things that we've learned from the XC Racer that we now use on the other gliders. Um, yeah, like any other company too. Uh, we're trying to, yeah. So, because I think, um, the XC racers, the way they do it. Um, it's, it's all about, it's not a compromise really. It's, it's all about performance, um, you know, um, yeah. And then the little things we learned from that project we're trying to use on the other gliders as well. Um, and the way, um, I, I, I think I have a really good eye for, to see things that maybe, um, uh, someone that's not a designer, uh, can see, um, and, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh.
Um, being a paraglider myself and, and being involved in competitions, I, I think the desire to go in design wings is because I was, I was like, why they don't do that, you know, why they don't do this. And I was trying to kind of, um, uh, I was wondering why designers, they don't use some solutions that I could see. It could clearly see right there on my face, just flying, just flying, looking at all the gliders. Um, and that's, that's why, that's one of the main reasons why. I decided to design my own gliders because I believe that I could do, and I could use things that I could see in my own gliders. Um, you know what I mean? Uh, and, and, and, and because I have the flexibility to, to, to explore my ideas and put in, into practice, um, I did, you know, I have, I had, I had a really good, uh, one of my really good friends, uh, from, from, from university.
He, he used to be deeply involved. I mean, he, he works for, for Embraer, which was, it's one of the biggest, uh, uh, airplane manufacturers in the world. Uh, behind Boeing and Airbus now. Um, we kind of, uh, we, we back in Brazil, we paraglided a lot together and I was involved in his, he had this little project that he designed remote control, uh, airplanes. And he played a lot with, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh. the thickness of the airfoil of the wings and and that's what i explore a lot on my my designs i explore um thickness f4 f4 thickness and maybe i don't know if you can see on my designs maybe
the thickness of my f4s are slightly different from the other manufacturers um and i try to observe like uh in nature what uh soaring soaring birds uh do when they're trying to stay airborne like if you see for example eagles they have a very very stray lineage sometimes even the the wingtips uh further forward um and then when you see paragliders they have all this uh the sweepback uh back wingtips uh which you know the most yeah the most most most most paragliders are designed that way but uh on the xc race i'm trying to explore sweet they're important uh yeah yeah so you know you align the airflow to the the code code wise and have the tips uh
yeah better aligned to the airflow and yeah so how long does it take oh
sorry good there's a
challenge there because of the tensioning and everything else but um yeah how
long does it take to go from from concept so you know you you guys released the XC Racer and uh you know that it's been widely well received people enjoy it you're probably getting a ton of feedback um you know what would what when would the XC Racer 2 come out typically i mean for and you try to speak generally you know like or the next i'm not super familiar with your full line of wings but your next b um but what what what does it take from kind of concept to uh certified and out the door is that two years three years one year how long does that take
uh it depends on the project let's say that's uh a year it's a good a good time frame uh to develop a glider uh what slows things down for us a lot is the it's the waiting for new prototypes so we waited a new prototype and we have to wait for like roughly a month to receive it and and that slows it down a lot so because sometimes let's say we we want to do we get one prototype and we test like oh no let's make a new one and then i have to know it wait another month and then let's make a new changes and then that's three months gone if you want to have three prototypes um so that's what slows down um for for example the XC Racer was a year and a half uh project uh because we just uh i just want to explore to make a two-liner and see how it would fly and the first one was already incredibly it was flying incredibly well um handling everything performance was good so then then i started to experience few other uh with some other things that i want to just wanted to explore and for example i i started playing with thickness apple f4 thickness and performance was incredible but the handling wasn't there so there's a when you there's a corporate there's sometimes there's compromises you have to take and to find the right balance to have a package that's good uh without compromise devices in handling or performance um because when you design a glider you for example i could make the x eraser more performant the way it is now but the handling wouldn't be that great uh so i had to readjust the design to make the handling fun and nice and uh the pilot could enjoy as well you know what i mean uh so uh we have we are right now working on the enc glider and the triple c glider and and those two projects uh we are using a lot of things that we've learned from the x eraser yeah and
when can we expect the the CCC the
CCC um so hopefully we have it we have it for the next australian comps in january so we've got two months yeah so because the project already started before the european summer i had uh one of the protos uh the PWC in bulgaria um and i was i was flying that one uh there and and i was i was yeah super happy with the performance uh as you know like bulgaria can be sometimes super rough uh lee side the takeoff and thermals can be strong um and the glider was super solid i could use i could push full bar all the time
and there was a task where i finished in third it was another task i finished in six over on the PWC so i thought yeah the performance is good performance is i think the the climb ability and and the glide at full speed is really good really good how
do you approach um how do you approach selling gliders you know as you know typically folks like yourself that are really good at design engineering that kind of thing um you know it's kind of hard to cover the you know how big your team is there now but um how do you because there's very different philosophies on that you know do you try to get them in the hands of the best pilots do you have a kind of a do you have a team is there a flow team now is there um how are you approaching selling and i'm gonna i'd like to tie that in too with you know what's it like being an australian company because it's an expensive country um you know are you are you manufacturing there i'm assuming you're magic manufacturing over in china or vietnam or something like that yeah i'm assuming you're manufacturing over in china or vietnam or something yeah
yeah yeah so yeah okay so i've learned a lot from making boards and making design and making kites that if you have something good the product will sell itself um people will will naturally be drawn to your product if they are good so um that's why i decided i told the guys hey let's take it easy on this let's make gliders they are awesome um and people will come to us it's not us knocking on people's doors today we have this glider they're going to sell it for that's what exactly what happened uh we made gliders they were good and um so people came to us and that's the best scenario um and that's this this is our mojo this is what we wanted to do uh we want to make gliders they are good and people will fly test it and it's like oh wow and tell their friends and you know uh things like that because yeah i had um with the kites uh you know like um i i don't know too many people in the industry and we sell the kites and we sell the kites but we don't sell uh the volumes are i was i was i was i was hopeful because uh uh you know just the context we don't have but um yeah so the the all the the flow of paragliders are all designed and tested in australia we have a team of pilots here in sydney um and we have a little office we have someone that works in the office with us um and we have a worker full-time uh we use a factory in thailand and we have a someone there only charge of our production in thailand that can uh supervise and then can the stock is ours it's held in thailand so that person takes care of shipping and and all that as well um and it makes it easy for uh the logistics side of things so we don't need to hold any stock in australia just uh yeah it's safe with shipping um and now these days we have uh dealers in most countries in the world um i think the the XC Racer created a lot of attention uh to our to our gliders uh but the the a glider the big glider and the tandem uh and the mini wing uh also having uh be getting lots of uh lots of positive feedback from from pilots from dealers from schools
um yeah so and for the future we we have the c glider the triple c glider and uh also um a high b glider that we uh should uh should should release uh the next season and
are you are you the the main designer for the whole lineup yeah
i i am yeah i am the guy who um designs all the gliders uh but uh who we work with with other pilots and what i like the most is to give um i'm the first person to to follow to fly the the prototypes tweak it and then i give to pilots it's what i like the most i give to that our test pilots we fly the gliders and and and tweak and help in tweaking it and um but i like to give to normal normal pilots you know the pilots who are supposed to fly these gliders and some people they like oh but i don't know how to give feedback so it doesn't matter just fly just to see what they think some people they say sometimes just small little things that that's a super valuable feedback to us um and we're trying to listen trying to listen to the pilots um what they what they want they need and how they like it should fly and all that yeah
when i you know so i i haven't been in the game uh nearly as long as you but uh you know in in my kind of of the paragliding history you know kind of like post 2000 um a good friend of mine i'll shift gears here a little bit a good friend of mine bill belcourt um when we asked him when we were filming 500 miles to nowhere we asked him you know like where where are gliders going what's the future of paraglide what do they look like and he kind of laughed and he thought i just can't predict this anymore because you know in the pre shark nose days you know a hundred mile flight was a really big deal and then i was like oh my god i'm gonna fly this thing i'm gonna fly this thing and then you know shark nose came along and it just doubled you know just i mean overnight we we went twice as far you know and it was it was a major breakthrough um and and you know and he's been in the game since the 80s so i mean he's he's seen you know he's seen them just improve and improve and improve and it's just amazing you know two liners and the whole thing but really since you know since 2009 the improvements the wings have you know they keep getting safer and they
better but they're it's you know i would call it incremental right you know i mean really since they've been pretty incremental improvements and you know you know we're seeing the single surface stuff and i just saw somebody sent me a video a couple days ago uh i don't remember the doodak and now they have like a like a hybrid it's like single surface slash you know regular foil um you know so people are doing some kind of interesting things but you know if you could you know if you could rub your you know maybe you already have something in mind and you can't say it but what do you see happening with our with our sport because it's it's also this interesting double-edged sword that it's you know the gliders are getting better but the safety really isn't i mean in other words they're getting safer but we're still having all the accidents because we can fly them in more wind you know so you know is there going to be what do you guys sit around and talk about on friday night when you've had a couple beers and you know and and start you know imagining the the 2030 the
2030 yeah
okay so i think maybe in the future the need to get a leap leap in performance um the way i see it will be new materials maybe um invention invention of new materials like that that big the big leap in performance uh from the the two liners uh i think was due to less drag right um and and the way the way you can fly a two-liner also in uh it was a it was a double winner there um and and yeah maybe the performance from now on onwards will be incremental little little things that can make a difference maybe in climb maybe some someone can come up with solutions in climb because if you climb with eagles they are climbers all the time right so maybe there's a there's there's um there's a an area that people can explore and make make the gliders to climb and climb better than what they are you know climb like the eagles i don't know imagine one day we all climb eagles i don't know if it's possible or not that
would be exciting yeah so that's why that's why i start playing with uh foil thickness because i believe that we could maybe make a glider that could um climb better um and that's that's that's that's the feedback we we get from the people flying the x-ray so they they think that the client the glider climbs really well
buddy of mine just sent me literally right before we got on the phone so i i haven't had any time to look into this but um do you know or have you seen rasp this rasp technology yes what do you think about yes um
yeah it's interesting uh it's a technology very similar to what you see in four kites uh you know the ram air four kites uh so the ram air four kites have a ball that's almost the same but it's on the leading edge right there the air the air valves uh the intakes uh because what do you what do you want to do with it is if you drop the kite in the water you still have a bit of air inside that you can uh relaunch um but um the way i see maybe you don't need it you know the glider can recover from collapses without having that uh rest um huh yeah in my own designs i wouldn't i wouldn't bother to put that
on it because now the gliders are so collapse resistant and then when they collapse they recover so easily as well um you know even even even the end gliders they recover almost instantaneously if you know if you know what you're doing if you put a little bit of brake on the open open side it just boom reopens you know yeah
i i spoke about this a little bit in the last podcast with those guys down in argentina uh and i felt like it was probably worth exploring a little bit more but it was i was in macedonia uh at the end of august at that nordic open and they they just had this really tragic accident that you know you were you were there i know you know about it um yeah and uh with the midair and and goron the uh the meat director was really stressing you know um how to behave how to fly in a gaggle you know as you know in this comp right after that terrible accident and and he also brought up which was great i really liked that he emphasized that because i think it's often unemphasized and it's a point in the race where people are stressed and they're flying too aggressively and it just doesn't you know you just don't need to jockey that hard at that time so so it was great that he was putting he was saying that especially in a comp that's not a world cup you know when you got people on different rated gliders and you know different climb rates and the whole thing but um but i he he made a point of you know back in the day and by by saying you know by back in the day you know when the when these first when the first you know kind of shark nose gliders came out and there was you
know there was a you
know the accidents and peter heathen and stuff i mean the the blow-ups were were pretty extreme because the glide speeds were so high and and uh you know and you're right you just don't see it anymore you just don't see gliders blowing up you know it's it we really have to kind of switch you know adjust to where we have to pay attention to things i think
yeah good point that that's a good point because i used to go to competitions like pwcs for example they'll they'll competitions would have one or two reserve deployments a day now now we go to competitions and we don't see reserve deployments anymore yeah yeah
yeah it's it's it's much more rare which is great i mean yeah you still see them but it's it's often not because of that you know because people going into bad places or whatever but um yeah yeah it's not you don't see as much the full bar going into goal and just exploding yeah
yeah yeah so what what what do you think as as a pilot uh like not having your um you know a designer point of view what do you think about rest do you think it's something necessary for glider literally
i i mean i i was being very literal there he sent me a little facebook thing as i was calling you and so there was a video i had never even heard of it um i'm very familiar with what you're talking about with foil kites because i mean my back my my background in kite surfing um but you know he showed me a video it was uh it was just a girl kind of cruising
it's super benign frontal but i mean you know most of the glider went um and it didn't look like she had to do anything and it just kind of popped back open and so uh it was just an eight second video so i hadn't you know i can't tell what you know but it was my my thought he sent me the video and he said what do you think of this and i thought wow that's a really nice recovery it is beautiful um and the wing had that in it i guess and so i guess it's like what he said was that it was you know they're meant to still frontal but you know like like you said your analogy was perfect with the foil kites but it just kind of blocks it at that point and then it just popped it just pops back open so um yeah i do i just i was curious from your your side of things what you what you thought of that because it was you know
maybe maybe for for beginner gliders yeah maybe for una gliders or big gliders that could be interesting to use it yeah it could be
interesting and i think also too that um you know i know because you know you're making gliders for the full range you're flying you know three liners but i i don't i don't i fly two liners and so um you know i i'm pretty out of touch with that side of things you know when i do i've been flying the climber quite a bit the last year and a half for bivy and stuff and it's a three liner and you know the the first thing i noticed when i got on it was like wow but it frontals like i just you know you don't experience that on two liners anymore you know at least if you're not if you're not i always think you know you do if you're not flying well but you know if you're if you're on it you shouldn't have a frontal you know that it's so that might be a really good thing to put into like b gliders because it's uh you know they're way more prone to frontaling to begin with but also it's you know if you can make them more benign then you have less chance of uh of uh you know a pilot over managing it which is what they usually do at that level you know they're just yeah so it's
interesting oh sorry no go ahead yeah so it's interesting you're saying that the the you know the c gliders or the big ladders they they they prone to pronto easier than the two liners we actually we can we actually can design a gliders or b gliders or c gliders they are as collapsed resistant as the two line but it's just due to the fact of how certification is is that we can't we have to make um especially for the c glider um yeah i had this beautiful c glider um that i had to change just to fit in certification to make the leading edge a little little bit softer um um and yeah it's which is a shame you know we should um uh look into how the certification is because uh it doesn't really reflect um uh
you know it's restricting designers to design gliders which are safer um yeah so interesting
so that well that that so that that great next question so i you know the there was there was a lot of hubbub about the CCC class but you know from at least from my perspective it seems like it's kind of working because you know there's companies like yours back in the game and that's that's what it was designed to do was to you know allow rfc gliders in world cups and you know it seemed like you know i mean in other words it see it seems like it's in it's getting companies back into it so just just on that you know on that level alone it seems like it's kind of working because you know it's kind of seems like it's kind of working but if you could you know if you could wave your magic wand about certification what would you change i
would uh i would one thing one simple uh solution i would allow i would allow i would make it certification so we can allow to use collapse lines in c class c class gliders or b class gliders um so you can mimic the collapses in real life um because the way the way it is if you want to design a glider the same way you design a two-liner on a on a c-class glider on a b-class glider the there will be too much load on the a-lines it will be really hard to pull a collapse and when you pull the collapse the collapse is really it's really because you pull it to pull it doesn't collapse as a collapse and then the collapse is too drastic it's too much and then the recovery is like uh it doesn't
fit into the certification standards um and it's a fail and sometimes they can't even collapse um if you go full bar and you and you pull you're trying to pull a full frontal the glider doesn't want to collapse unless you unless you have collapsed lines that will pull from the very uh you know front of the leading edge um let's just let's clarify
there because i think i think a lot of listeners will have lost you you're talking about the little lines that you see on two liners that you literally tie lines to and testing so you can actually get it to go yes
because if you look at a two-liner um the a-lines where the a lines are anchored on the on the glider they're they they not really they're not close to the leading edge they are further back um but also um how how you place your center of mass center gravity or your toe point in relation to your to your canopy so you distributing the load of the lines more on the a-lines there's more the a-lines are bearing most of the load of the pilot so those there's a lot of tension on the a-lines there and the glider is super solid that's why you can push a lot of bar on on the d glider or the triple c gliders and the glider doesn't collapse um and you have this awesome feedback from the glider and you can push a lot of bar on the d glider and the triple c gliders and the b which is kind of soft in a way um and you can kind of design a glider uh which will resemble that kind of feeling on the c on the c class on the b class but we can't because uh if you do that we won't be able to pull the same collapses they are required for certification
unless we change the certification interesting
yeah well good luck with that one yeah
yeah anyway we
can dream
right we could dream yeah that's you know but uh you can still design beautiful gliders uh to to to speed certification these days and that's okay we can get uh cut our head around it and yeah make make beautiful gliders still yeah um
what one more question and then i want to get and then i want to ask you one final one about uh you know bringing you way back to the very very beginning but what gives you hope as a designer and you know kind of a fledgling you know still i mean i know you've been at it for a few years now but you're you're still you know small and growing and you know um hoping it's all gonna go go great for you but what what gives you hope when you look at paragliding as a as a sport as an endeavor as an adventure because the the statistics don't look great for you guys you know in terms of just the growth of the sport and um you know the age uh the lack of young people getting into it and you know i might be a little
bit of a young person but i'm not a young person i'm not a young person i'm not a little
skewed here because i'm looking at the u.s but i think you guys are pretty similar in australia um yeah yeah what do you think small what do you what do you guys think about that i mean you know as you know as a as a person who's written a few business plans that's always something that that goes into the beginning you know this is a high growth sport well that's not really the case yeah
that's interesting you're talking because i really uh like just uh recently you've been uh chatting about uh in our uh strong squad uh um the discussion group about how can we broadcast the competition um so imagine if you can broadcast competition and offer that to tv channels or to make it uh so the broad the broad public can watch uh so we'll be talking about using drones um some sort of drone so i think maybe that's uh maybe that's the future and then become they'll become more attractive to companies or tv channels to bring to give us more exposure and then attract more people that way um that would be an amazing wouldn't be like imagine if you have a some you know john's following us and broadcasting life a competition that would be amazing that would
be cool i just noticed you know a lot of the new kind of pov action cameras like garvin garmin's new verb you know which is basically the same the same package as a in as a gopro you know the they're they're very similar size and weight um you know you can just broadcast to youtube or facebook you know as you're flying you know so if you i mean imagine if you had 20 pilots uh in a comp that were doing that i mean it'd be better if it was running through some kind of a you know some amazing editor who could actually you know uh so it wouldn't just be all that'd be chaos to watch 20 people's head cams but if you could but you know if you could edit it you know if you could take that stuff and edit it um you know the the
the the the the the the the the the the the
that would be yeah that'd be that'd be pretty insane the i i went live very briefly in the in the last X-Alps i was you know amazing day i wouldn't normally do this in that race but you know i was i was flying literally right over the gloss glockner you know very famous big mountain in the alps going from the south to the north going up to the ashout turn point it was just on you know i mean the it was a perfect day and the cloud base was high and the days had been really terrible so i was i was pretty excited and uh you know i was kind of looking at my instruments and there's this beautiful cloud street out in front of me and uh and uh something something somebody pinged me and uh and i just went i went on facebook and just turned it on the live thing for like i don't know it was a few minutes and man it was so exciting because you know at first there's a few people and then there's just you can see the numbers you know and uh and people commenting and you know and i wasn't typing i could just say stuff and they could hear me you know and so that like where are you i'm flying over the glass guy you know it was it was really cool i mean so you're right i mean i think that that's always been the hope of the the film stuff i've been doing it's just like a you know i think very few people understand really what we're doing and you know if they're good
yeah it's pretty exciting but if you can show to people what we do i think more people will be interested to what you know it'd be tempted to give it a go yeah
yeah you get it it's it's always hard to break over that you know the safety side of things yeah you know there's just
yeah that's right yeah but you know um you know the dave snowden and he's being deeply involved with the um with the olympic side of things uh the paraglider olympic side of things and his big hope is that uh one day paraglider becomes an olympic sport and he truly believes that uh it's possible you know um the next olympic games after japan i think it's in in france and he's had uh you know uh uh i don't see it would be a perfect venue can
you imagine holy cow that'd be that'd be so exciting yeah that'd be terrific well hey i i want to be philippe i want to be mindful of your time super fascinating talk uh you mentioned something right in the very beginning we could either go back to that you mentioned you got hurt pretty bad or you had an accident or something in hang gliding uh feel free to share that one if you want if you think it'd be instructive otherwise you can go back to that and you can go back to that and you can go if you know if it's just one another accident story that's dismal we don't have to go there but um i do want to rewind to your kind of that one of the questions i love asking is you know if you could go back to your 50 hour self what would you change and i think that's really relevant with you because if i've got my my time line correct when you're 50 hours you were flying patu and tesima which is just mind-boggling to me that that's that's insane so uh i'd love to i'd love to just
get everybody back there briefly um you know it's hard for folks that haven't been there to understand it but it'd be i'd love to get your viewpoint because you must have learned some pretty hard lessons right in the beginning if that's where you were learning yeah
i think i think the biggest lesson was um not to um to step up to a new glider too soon that's what happened to me in hang gliding i stepped up to a two line to a double surface hang glider too soon and never felt really in control um and i crashed because of that uh in paragliding i had a completely different approach it took me a long time from uh to jump from a glider to a big big glider um yeah so don't don't rush um you know natural progression wait for your time and when you feel that's right step up to a new class you can see you have fun on the big on big glider on big glider yeah and um you don't really need to get a
high high-end glider to to fly 200 kilometers yeah
for sure for sure that's that's that's great advice one we hear a lot and i think i think people often make that jump too early you know it was uh yeah my best story about that was uh last year at the monarca which is getting close it's coming up in january i'm pretty excited about that but um marco beat everybody on a seat you know he was flying the queen and uh you know because it's you know via it can be pretty rough and the conversions can be really strong and uh you know those of us that were flying CCC gliders just couldn't stay on bar and and uh and he just would drill right past us on final glide you know day after day that's classic he's a great pilot you know i mean so i gotta give him credit there but he's a fantastic pilot but you know that's got a that feels really good when you're standing on the podium at the end and you're on a c you know so you can absolutely do it
getting all the triple c yeah yeah exactly pretty cool pretty cool but well felipe
thanks so much man i i wish you and your company uh the most success uh it's fantastic it was great flying with you last year i hope we get to do that again here soon uh good luck with the upcoming comps and your uh release of the c and the CCC glider i'm sure everybody's excited about that and uh yeah man thanks a lot appreciate your time thank
you so much guys thanks for your time thank you i
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