Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud-Based Mayhem. Just got off the line with a guy I met down in the Sertão in Brazil about this time a year ago, a little later, Dominique Rohr, who had a paragliding school for a long time in Zurich and sold that recently and is just enjoying the fruits of that labor and traveling around and kite surfing and flying and learning acro. He's been flying for 21 years and, yeah, we just had a really great conversation about all of that and his school and his scariest flight and his most memorable flights. There are a lot of those. He's traveled all over the world, done some pretty amazing things. And, yeah, I just really clicked with him when I was down in Brazil last year and thought it'd be really fun to have him on the show.
He listens to the show all the time and recently reached out and I was like, hey, let's have a chat. And so, yeah, that was super fun. But we talk about a lot of things we always talk about on this show, but kind of a different perspective. So safety and risk and coming back from fear injuries because he had a little bit of a scary incident about 11 years ago. But, yeah, you can tell in his voice, just super passionate about flying. Recently spent a bunch of time in Organia with learning acro, which is something I was just recently doing up here in Oregon. So talk a little bit about that. But a lot of cool lessons. Here's a really fun conversation. I think you're going to laugh out loud in a few places in this one. So, yeah, without further delay, please enjoy this conversation with Dominique Rohner.
Dominique, so awesome to have you on the show. We met down in a pool in Quixada and doing some flying together in Brazil about this time last year. A little bit later, I guess I was in November. But really cool to catch up with you. And you've been doing a lot of traveling since then. And I want to hear about that. But I thought we started off a little bit different. And I have been in any of the other shows. A lot of people have been asking for stories and that kind of thing. And I thought I might ask you first the scariest experience you've ever had under a wing. Oh,
man, Gavin. I've been flying for, well, for a second. Thanks for having me on the show. I was pretty surprised when you asked me. I'm not a famous pilot. I'm just, I've been flying for quite a while and done a few things. My scariest moment, Gavin, I've been flying for 21 years. I think I've had it. Quite a few. Probably one of the scariest ones. It's not nice to talk always about injuries, but probably when I broke my back about 11 years ago, crashing with my wing. Yeah. It must have been the most scary flight, most likely.
You can't leave us on that note. You've got to give us the details. How did it, what happened? What led up to it? Usually that kind of thing is a series of small mistakes and then one big one. Is that how that one went?
You know, I already, that's the really painful thing. I already was a paragliding instructor back then and I did about everything I always used not to do. It was, as you said, a series of bad things I decided to do. I was going to do a cross country flight in St. Moritz in Engadin, launching from Corvac. It's a pretty high mountain, three and a half thousand meters. I think you passed there. Yeah, I know it well. I'm right. In my eyes, it's probably the most beautiful valley I've toured completely in Switzerland with all those lakes. And I knew, I know the takeoff because I used to live up there for two years.
And since it's on a glacier, I knew it must have changed. I wanted to go up there the day before just to check out the launch, have a short flight and go rest in the valley. I went up there. I was already half. I didn't feel well. I was half sick, you know, maybe a little fever, which was already the first mistake. I knew the day was thunderstormy. There were thunderstorms approaching from the west. Second mistake. I had to walk a little bit up to takeoff, which took me maybe half an hour. And then I decided, you know, weather was deteriorating. And I thought, man, I've been flying for over 10 years and it's always been fine. May as well this time. So preparation. I had launched, flew over the valley and then I noticed it's not good because over the valley, remember, I was launching on three and a half thousand meters and over the valley was still rising, was just going up over the lakes, pretty heavy.
And I knew time is time is playing against me. I did spirals over the lake and I saw them kite surfing down there with wind from the south and further down. I was zero penetration. But to walk. Towards west. So complete different, different direction was still going up. So I had to spiral. And I was already thinking then, well, what's what's the better place to go into lake or or or paddock?
And you know how it is. I mean, flying on these altitudes, a big boots, big gloves, lots of clothes. The lake is really cool. The lake's really cool, like 12 degrees all year in that time of the year. Yeah. So I decided whatever happens, I'm not going into the lake. So I went over the over the the grassy area that it all started. I knew I have wind from the south further down and strong wind from the west. And there's got to be a strong wind shear that it all happened. And my wing just just collapsed and went into deep stall every now and then.
And it was over that grassy spot, still a couple of hundred meters high, and it was going up and down. And I thought of should I throw reserve, should I not, because I was really scared of when I throw the reserve. That's that's it. I can just wait, you know, wait and see what happens. And with the thunderstorm approaching and lifting air and I was not too keen to throw the reserve too early and not knowing what happens then.
So about maybe 300 meters above ground, I had control of the wing and I thought, well, now I've got it. I can I can land that wing. And. It looked pretty good until I was about, I don't know, hundreds, it's hard to say 150, 100 or 50 meters above ground. And again, it went into it's like a deep stall, you know, must have been just a turbulence, like the wind changing direction 180 degrees and coming from behind. So it's just sliding back deep stallish. And I remember thinking, well, reserve or no reserve. I decided not to throw the reserve because I was scared to throw the reserve. And in that time, I don't have to break handles and my my glider catches air and shoots I'm I'm stuffed, you know, that's going to be really bad.
And I decided just to kind of keep my wing overhead and yeah, I looked down and already knew it's a bit too fast, you know, it's it's not it's not that fast, it's a free fall, but it's fast and first landing on my feet and rolled rolled up over my my bum and still too hard. And yeah. And. And I had to to vertebrae some, yeah, broken, but just I was really lucky was this compression fracture, I didn't even have to operate and I was really surprised when the guys at the hospital told me two days later, I should get up, it was still really painful. Yeah, I get up and just take it easy for three, three months and don't lift, just don't do anything.
And but yeah, I was surprised was really, really lucky. So yeah, I did so many things wrong. Yeah. That day, you know, it was, that was probably the most painful thing of, of, of it all. Yeah.
Super educational. I mean, I guess the.
You know, not being an unexperienced pilot, I mean, you should really know better, you know.
Yeah, but that's always 20, 20 hindsight, you know, I mean, how many times have we all flown in those kind of conditions and, you know, then sometimes you get lucky and you're like, ah, you know, I sorted it out. That was the
thing, you know, when you ask me how you've had scary accidents, if I, I'd have to think, I, they would probably. Yeah,
yeah, I was, I was training, um, with, uh, Aaron Durogati and, and Eric Reinfeld, um, who else, there was somebody else with us then, I can't remember, um, just a couple of weeks before the 2015 X-Alps and we were, we were right in that zone, the next valley over to the east, uh, right on the, right on the border, uh, switching. So you go over from the Brenta that year, you go, we went from the Brenta over that pass. I can't remember it. And then there's a lake. And then there's another pass.
Yeah. The Bernina Pass. The Bernina Pass. You went up to. Exactly. The Bernina, it's where, it's
where. The
Schlaz and the Bernina Pass. It's
where Michael Vichy threw his reserve that, that year actually, actually in the race. It's a really dicey, dicey spot. And we, um, the three of us, and, and I think Andre Pershasko was there, it was Aaron's supporter, who's a really, really, you know, epic acro pilot, very good cross country pilot. And, um, we, we hiked up to hopefully fly. And then when we got up to launch, it was just. Really wrong, you know, dumping into the valley and it was just nasty. And it was just a training day, you know, so I didn't see any point and I just walked down and, and Eric and Aaron both flew. Um, they both had quite scary flights, you know, and, um, and they just flew down to the valley. It was five minute flight. It was no big deal. It was basically, basically just to not walk. Um, but it was, it was interesting, you know, like watching that there was this, um, weird, I've, I've been quite astute.
And of, of avalanche safety in the last few years, cause I do a lot of back country skiing and they talk about, you know, the heuristic decision-making process where we make decisions that, that aren't logical and, and why we do it. You know, we have, we have all the information and yet we still make an emotional decision. Um, and that was one of them where there was a surprisingly, um, uh, there was a lot of, um, peer pressure on me, not from them. No one was suggesting that I fly. It was clearly not very fly. It was clearly not reliable and not good and we weren't really gaining anything, you know, we'd already done the hike, um, and, uh, and those guys had these really scary flights and I thought, well, God, if I'm going to be in the X ops, I need to be able to do stuff like that. But I was like, yeah, but you know, the, the penalty points here are super high. And it sounded like for you that day, they were also super high.
Like you weren't really going to gain much by flying that day, but you still, we still fly and we do it all the time.
Yeah. Sometimes it's, it's really hard. Distinguish in between what we like to believe conditions are and what they actually are. Yeah. Well, in that case, I actually, I actually knew it was bad, but I was just kind of convinced because it always went well during 10 years. I thought that day, yeah, it's gotta be another day. It's a bit dodgy, but, but it'll be right. You know, somehow it'll be all right. That's just not the way, the way to think when you play in the sky. Yeah. When
you, when you look back on that, I mean, obviously the, the first bad choice was to fly, but let, let's assume you got to live that day over and you still chose to fly. What would you do differently? Would you land in the lake?
Um, in the aftermath, I should have thrown the reserve when still more than a hundred meters.
Really? Even in that kind of land?
Probably I, I should have.
I've had, I've had a few instances like that too. I had a very similar. Similar thing happened to me in the Roan. Um, I was trying to do the, the, uh, you know, the classic fish FAI triangle where you go down to, um, you know, and then up to Zermatt and then home. And I was, I was up in Zermatt area where this huge cell was dropping out over Zurich and I should have just top landed. It would have been fine, but I tried to get back to the Roan. And when I got there, the ghost Gus front was coming down from the Grimsel and blah, blah, blah. It was just scary as hell. But, um, you know, I, I thought the same thing as, as I was coming down to the ground. I mean, I had plenty of backstop. I was over a huge field, but man, it was honking. It was really windy. And, uh, and it was one of these things where half the time I went, my wing was totally out of control, you know?
So, I mean, I was, I was, it was kind of like, God, this is like 50, 50 here. Um, and should I throw my reserve? And I did it and I got lucky, you know, I, I ended up just landing right on my feet and it was fine. But, but, um, I was nervous to throw my reserve cause that kind of wind. I mean, you just, then you're really out of control.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Then you're at the whim of the power lines and the houses and all the other stuff. Exactly.
Once, I mean, once, you know, you throw a normal reserve, even, even in these conditions, it may even be a Rogalo, you know, there's not much you were doing in a Rogalo when it's blowing that hard. Yeah. And then you got to deal
with your wing.
I'm pretty convinced, uh, a good friend of mine, Cody is, is written up quite a bit about this. I think if you fly with a Rogalo on XC kit, you really got to have a cutaway. You know, you've really got to be able to ditch your main, if you throw low, if you throw high, no big deal. You'll be able to, you know, get your, your main wing disabled. But if it's, if it's enabled there, they're going to down plane. And I think you're going to hit just as hard as you hit.
Uh, Hey man, you know, I, I was just, um, in, in Oregon, yeah. And first time in my life being, being a little bit of a, an acro pilot or trying to be at least. And everyone there, all the good pilots now have cutaway systems. And I really want to have the, the other cutaway system now has a, has a, a base system and two additional, whatever you put in, you know, normal, normal reserves. But even for, for ambitious cross country flying, seriously, I think the future in my eyes will be, will be cutaway systems. Totally. Just such a perfect way of getting off your glider. And it works so quickly. Every time I saw those guys going down on their cutaways, it was just like, this is, this is perfect.
No, it's, it's 20, 30 meters and you fly, you fly away and everything is in perfect order. Yeah. How, how nice is that? And I don't know why, why this hasn't come over to, to cross country harnesses yet. I think that's completely the future,
right? It's definitely the future. It's definitely coming. I think it's, um, you know, I think the problem still now, if, if you're in this hike and fly, if
you're in this fly
mode, it's the weight issue, but I do know that not many, but there are some comp pilots. Cause we don't care about weight when we're flying comps that have, that are doing that, that are flying with, with, with cutaways. And, um, yeah, it's, it's mandatory. I think that's, that's just definitely the future. I mean, we, we have to keep making this sport safer and that's, you know, that's, you know, the acro guys are proving that it works, you know, and, and, um.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's, it's, so tell me about your. Well, okay. Before we get your acro stuff, uh, you know, we started on this kind of scary note. Let's, let's, let's flip the switch. Uh, tell me like your, when you think back to, you said 21 years of flight, I think, um, what's the, what's the flight that most stands out in your mind?
Oh, I knew you were going to ask that question. I thought about it. I didn't come to a flight. It's it's for me, it's flying has so much diversity and I've had. Epic moments, you know, doing hundreds of Wagga, maybe at Dundee Pila or some other soaring at night, it's gotta be a June spot, you know, sand is just perfect. So nice. It may have been. Top landing on, on, on a volcano in Tanzania with a friend and then landing down in the Valley in between giraffes, canoes, and, and, and all these, these wild animals or might've been what I'm really into is now.
Uh, the, the cross country flights up, up in Brazil. I mean, it's far from, you're not the only person up there, but I still, right now, it's just, I think it's such a nice thing. I flying over, over the set down in the Northeastern part of Brazil. It's I think it's epic flying, flying in Switzerland. I've had so many nice flights. I really can't break it down to one flight. And it's also not just the flying for me. Paragliding is so much more than just flying. So for me, most of it is combined. With, with traveling and meeting people, getting to know cultures and, and, and seeing the world, it's, it's, it's more than just a flight. I so, so many beautiful flights. I can't break it down to one for, for sure.
I know it's not possible.
It's hard to do that. Isn't it? It's like kind of whatever pops in your mind. I was just, I was just over flying in, in Macedonia, um, at the, at the Nordic open. And, uh, Ronnie, I don't know if I can pronounce his last name. It's. He's
a famous
Norwegian guy that takes groups down to, down to Mexico every year. And we were at the Monarca years ago. I don't remember why it's five, six, seven years ago. I remember I can kind of place it because I was on an ice peak six. So it must've been like 2011, maybe 2012, somewhere in there. And, uh, the start of the race, it was like day two, day three, doesn't matter. And the start of the race, um, was, it was just this huge cloud was over, uh, you know, like the crazy thermal Mesa and, and the start was, was right there. So you, you couldn't go, you couldn't actually start the race without going into the cloud. So you couldn't really start. And, uh, and so there was about, and it was, it had been a really weird day. Like half the field had already bombed out. You know, it was, it was just a, it was a strange day.
And then this cloud just kind of like, it was right at the treetops, way vertical, went all the way up. And so there was about eight of us just surfing the side of this cloud. Just totally, we didn't give a shit about the race. We weren't even trying to get around. We were
just trying to get
to the start or, you know, and, uh, and Ronnie took all these pictures that he later gave to me. And, uh, you know, we, without the pictures, I would have forgotten about it probably, but it was just this like magical moment where you're, you're in a comp, nobody cares. And, uh, and then you've got this wall of white that just went up, you know, thousands and thousands of feet next to your glider. It's, oh, it's magnificent. Kind of flying in and out of the wispies, but we have a lot of these moments under a wing, I guess.
Yeah. I actually did the Monarch. It wasn't called Monarch back then. In 2000, they called it the Copa Milenio, Millennium's Cup. Okay. Yeah. Until 2000, I was traveling down from Mexico. Actually, I wasn't traveling. I just kind of thought I'm going to South America. I left everything behind in Switzerland. I was 21, really bored and thought I may just end up somewhere in South Africa, South America and traveled down from Mexico to Ecuador. Took me one and a half years. Wow. What a cool adventure. That was really fun though. Yeah. All the little shit I did there, just, I was like, I didn't know anything about flying back then and I had so many cool little stories, you know, getting picked up by the army in Colombia because I flew straight into guerrilla country and landed there somewhere and they had an encounter there before and they escorted me out, down to the valley there, or so many, so many little crazy things.
Yeah. And I, living in Colombia anyways, was, I lived there for three, three months. I already had a job as, as English teacher, actually. Really? Back then, they took anyone to be an English teacher.
So I ended up in Valle, like, the third week and there was this cup, I thought, yeah, I might as well participate. And I think there were, I think there were, uh, Dash Cohen may have been there. Yeah. I don't know him, but just, you know, listening to your podcast, all these names and I thought, maybe Eric Reid, if I'm not totally mistaken. Probably. Yeah, probably. Or Miguel and, um, who else was, some name, ah, Chris Muller, but yeah, you know, Chris Muller, but he doesn't, yeah, he died a couple of years ago, Canadian pilot, he won, of course, yeah.
Did he, yeah, that was, yeah, that was back in his era, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he, he, he ripped out comp, for sure.
Well, that's, that's interesting, so why, why haven't you done comps all these years?
Um, you know, I did, like, in Switzerland, we have this junior challenge, it was called back then. Um, maybe, now it's called newcomers challenge, like young, young pilots kind of being, that, that's the entry to comp flying by the, by the Swiss league. Um, I did that, I didn't even do too bad for, I really didn't have much experience back then. Um, I was together in the group with, like, Stefan Wies and then Peter Neuenschwan, but like, you know, pilots, kick ass pilots. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, I, I think I was too young, I, I, I'm, and I was born in Zurich, in the city, and I just thought spending my weekends somewhere lonely with old men just didn't.
It wasn't so appealing back then.
No, really, because the thoughts made up, that's maybe. Yeah, one thing I kind of regret, I probably should've done it, but. Yeah, there was, there was so many other things as well I wanted to do, you know, not, not, not.
now i would do it yeah totally totally yeah just when you asked me to to to to to have this talk i looked at pictures from many years ago and there's so many so many moments i which are nice nice to remember and but probably the nice i can tell you them for me the most interesting more more most rewarding way of flying i think is for me flying in places which at least i don't know at all or where which give me the feeling i'm actually exploring something i may i may be the first one flying there and really exploring a country and landing in in places where i've never been before where i don't know the language not the people it's the whole of adventure it's such such a nice thing maybe it comes to my mind because it's not so long ago but i know it wasn't a big cross country flight it was maybe on another another record flight but i think 150 in the uzambara mountains in in tansania and it's actually like a high plateau you know you wake up in the morning on that high plateau it comes up a couple hundred meters from from from the plains pretty straight and it's flat on top and there's this tribe living living on the top and in the mornings it's just all in fog and and it's very humid you've got these little creeks and waterfalls and and the women going for water in the morning they all have these very colorful dresses and we were looking for a launch and we drove to the edge of that that that table mountain sort of thing and and we looked down over the edge and just it was all covered in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in fog in the morning and we were just like on an island in in in that fog and we were waiting to for for the clouds to rise and then took off took off there which was actually completely lee side
but it was fine because it was really in the lee side we and we we knew we have to fly out of the lee side to to the side because we wanted to drive along along some sort of road because we really didn't didn't know anything there were no there probably were roads but we just didn't know to fly along that that that track we we had to fly out of of the lee side and then downwind and it yeah it felt like just discovering tanzania from from above where most likely no one has flown that direction ever ever before and landing in small villages that kind of flying i mean that's just for me that's the most most most fascinating about about our sport yeah yeah
were you guys were you guys in tanzania you know specifically to fly were you just kind of figuring it out on the go i haven't heard of much flying in tanzania uh
no not at all actually i saw well we had um was with another paragliding instructor and we had a group down in in kenya for two weeks before like christmas new year's we did kenya the wrist valley with a group and i saw pictures i don't quite remember if they were by um michael gay but or felix wilk or orrazio jorans those guys have been down there and they have been flying in that area volcanic air it's close to ngorongoro national park and it just looked so spectacularly you have these perfect shaped volcanoes and looking down into the flats you have all these small creatures and it's just it's i i i knew if i'm down there i gotta go and see that it's just so stunning such a stunning scenery it's yeah this is incredible it's a really cool still i think it's one of yeah most stunning area to fly we talked to a few locals and they actually said we must have gotten well that's actually about five local tanzanian pilots
but they said one of them had used to have a lodge in that area and he said we must have gotten really lucky because usually it's just super windy there and we had pretty pretty good pretty good conditions yeah yeah and
now since i met you a year ago and in brazil um well that this is a good segue into your business how do you how do you make a paragliding business that you can then sell and travel the world i i think you're you're quite unique in that respect i don't know a lot of people that have made money from paragliding so it's this this
sounds like i
never have to work again no no yeah you're right i should yeah you're right you're just having fun for a little bit of time i i get that i get that but tell me about your let's let's give give me the short version of your history and and this in this business because you were working with michael right
no no no no no no no no i just know michael through andy from fly with andy who's a friend of mine and yeah i don't know michael no it's um i had it with um well you know in schwander um well you know i i i've been flying 20 21 years and and and And job-wise, I've done a few things and nothing was actually really satisfying. Then I had to, I sat down and thought, well, Dominic, you're, I don't know, 27 now, 28. It's about time to do something, not just travel, having fun, doing shit jobs to get a bit of money. I really felt I wanted to do something, yeah,
job-wise. And I knew, like, office work is all nothing for me. And I sat down, thought, what are the things I'm good at or what I like? And I figured I like being on holidays, I like flying, and I like drinking beer with people. So, yeah, conclusion, I need to have a paragliding school, right? Perfect match.
And, you know, Switzerland is full of paragliding schools. There is good schools. Bad schools, like everywhere.
But looking at the scene, I thought, at least what I knew, paragliding schools, there's many good schools. But I lacked a bit of, I thought, young people, what are you looking for when you're looking for a hobby? I mean, you know Switzerland? Switzerland doesn't have any sea, not even that close, you know. And we have a surfing scene in Switzerland. People actually call themselves surfers. Why is that? Because it's a terribly sexy scene, you know? Beautiful girls, beach, and whatever, you know? It's just, I thought, a little bit more of that aspect in our scene couldn't do any harm. So, just give it a bit more of a lifestyle approach. Make more community, more we together doing something really cool in the mountains.
And it's actually pretty sexy as well. Well, not many girls, I suppose, but still. Right, there's always that, darn it. I mean, you know, it's an important part in life, I suppose.
And when we started the school, we really decided, both of us, we're not known acro pilots. We're not competition pilots. We can't make marketing with that. But we thought, we can do community. We can create lifestyle. And we're pretty good at that. And that's what I still think, hey, of course, we still were the best paragliding school, of course. But what made... What made us pretty, yeah, I can say, probably pretty successful, we did it, was definitely the people just liked to be at our shop and have beers and planning trips with us and bringing their friends to barbecue evenings and all sorts of evenings we created and weekends.
And, yeah, it started working. Like, wow, we didn't even have to do too much marketing anymore. People wanted to be part of something. And that was really...
Was it in Zurich? Where was your base?
Yeah, we are both from Zurich. So we based our school right in the city, which some people did it before. Actually, we were not the first ones. But that was probably one thing. People didn't have to travel somewhere to go to school. Actually, honestly speaking. It doesn't make a difference if they drive with us to the mountain or if they drive to the mountain and teach there. But probably psychologically, it made a difference for people to have a school right where they live and being able to come to the shop after work and spending some time getting to know us and all that. And we started in Zurich and then we made a second hub in Lucerne. You probably know Lucerne, another city in Switzerland.
This is the second hub. And, yeah, yeah. Also in the city. So that's kind of our approach.
Was there kind of a... Did you guys specialize in like, you know, brand new pilots or more guiding for more advanced pilots? Or were you just kind of the whole gambit?
We definitely started off new pilots. I think probably two-thirds of our turnover was teaching people and selling their equipment to them. And with the years, we did more and more trials. Travels and SIVs and cross country camps, ground handling camps and just, yeah, the whole bunch.
One of the recent shows we did with Mitch Riley, we kind of tag-teamed. My co-interviewer, Nik Hawks, asked a question that I'm going to ask you because I thought it was really good. What is a risk that you wish new pilots wouldn't take? You know, something you see them doing. You know, either over and over again or sometimes that leads to, you know, that doesn't necessarily lead to an accident, but just like, ooh, you know, that kind of cringe thing we all have at a busy launch. Like, ooh, God. But it could be psychological. It could be gear. It could be, you know, just lack of some skill. But a risk that you see newer pilots or any pilots take that you wish they wouldn't.
One for sure isn't what we try. We try to explain people flying in, I guess it depends a little bit where you fly, but in the Alps, I think it's important to have a forgiving wing at the beginning because it can be strong even where we fly in the pre-Alps. It can be strong in spring and you just need a solid wing. And there's always the pilots who think they need to have a wing with more performance and just take a very unnecessary risk by doing that. But before actually knowing all the things that can happen in the air anyways, they change to a wing which is probably a bit too hard for them.
And it's so easy, so easy to avoid that, you know. It's super easy.
Yeah, that's ego, isn't it? And what about a risk that you wish you would see more pilots take?
Many people could easily fly a bit more ambitiously because they actually have it. They're good pilots. They are too lazy just to get up early in the morning or get the necessary information or to do further education in terms of SIVs, ground handling camps, cross country camps to actually get them further. It's not exactly a risk, but like a risk, just doing more, pushing themselves a little bit more. It's more, more, more, more, more ambitious maybe. Being more ambitious with all due respect, of course. Yeah,
in the right places. Yeah, no. No, I totally agree with that. Yeah, for sure.
Hey, I'm going to – I skipped over this and I shouldn't have. Not to go back to the dark side of things, but I didn't ask you. After you broke your back, whenever that was, 11 years ago, one of the subjects we've talked a lot about on the show is fear injuries, you know, like coming back from not just the physical side of it, which doesn't sound like it was too bad for you, but the mental side. Was there any kind of leftover? Yeah. The next time you flew, was there any kind of getting over that? Did you have to do anything specific to kind of find your groove again?
I was actually more scared of I would have that, but it was so clear for me what went wrong because it was obvious. It was totally 100 plus percent my mistake that this happened. So it actually didn't affect my psychological. I would almost say not at all, actually. Interesting. Once I was able to fly, I flew. You know, the first couple of flights, maybe a little bit scared, but not that much. But now that you talk of it, I actually had a fear injury, but way before that, it must have been about one year into my, if you can call it, flying career. I did exactly the mistake I told you about.
I must have been flying a year and then I was back in 98 or whatever, you know. It was still a few dodgy gliders out. And I had that high, I got that high performance glider somewhere cheap or almost for free. And I didn't crash, but within a week or two weeks, I could have easily crashed three times. You know, once in the Cento Valley, I wing recovered very close to the ground after doing anything for hundreds of meters. Then close to Fiesch, a couple of days later, I almost fell onto the glacier. Yeah. Because my wing went crazy again. I had no clue what I did. And then again, third time in Engelberg, same thing. I wing recovered and I must have almost touched the treetops after getting out of that.
And after those three times, I was really, I went back to a school wing and flew that for about one and a half years. And I think the only reason I kept flying was because at that time, my whole circle of friends, they all flew every week and we flew and spent time together. And I think that was the only reason I actually kept flying. Otherwise, I would have stopped. I didn't enjoy flying for a year at least, not at all.
Hmm. Yeah, that wrong gear can really bite
you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it can. Yeah. It's very unnecessary.
Yeah. It's an unnecessary risk, isn't it? Especially these days. God, the gear is so good. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So the... So the school. So you guys did that for how long? And then how did you exit? Did you sell it to your partner?
Yes.
Like we had it. Well, it still exists. It always sounds like it didn't exist anymore. I may do some marketing here. It's actually called Parable.ch and it's a perfect, great school. Great.
Yeah, we'll put that link up. We'll put that link up in the show notes.
Yeah, we... I was there for about 11 years, I think. And I sold my... My half to my... My partner. And, yeah, he didn't really want me to leave because it's quite a bit of workload you have with...
For paragliding standards, it's quite a large, large school. But anyways, I knew I had to go. I just didn't really have that much fun teaching anymore. That was one reason. And by the size the school developed, there was quite a bit of management is too much said, you know, but organizing, a lot of organizing stuff and all that. And I did a lot of things which I actually didn't ever wanted to do. And that was one reason, just not really wanting to do the stuff anymore. I always liked the traveling part and further education, the old camps and that I still like. That I still like. The whole teaching was just a bit...
Organization and teaching. And then, you know, I don't have kids. I don't have kids and don't plan to have any. There's not much need for me just to work, to work too much, you know. And I constantly, you know, I'm confronted with guys like you.
Having to look at all the adventures you have and all the cool stuff you do. And I thought, well, no, now it's time to do... I'm more serious flying myself and I'm 40 now. And I knew I want to become a good kite surfer. I want to become a better pilot. I may want to become a bit of an acro pilot as well. And it's probably easier if I do it now at the age of 40 than 60. I can still work with 60, you know, but my bones and all that stuff probably is a bit... They work better now, you know, than within 10 or 20. I'm sure. And now having done this for a year, I'm convinced it's a good choice.
Nice. And so how are you approaching... Because, you know, when you... I've been through kind of what you've done to certain respects in different businesses and that kind of thing. You know, you're obviously a very driven person. You've got a good mind for business. You created this great school. It was successful. You know, I have found in the past when I... You know, we all do that with the hopes of, you know, ending that and going to do what you're doing. But you have to actually also be mindful about doing what you're doing or that can become kind of almost like a mouse on a spinning wheel. You know, that it... I don't know. I have found that my endless travels have to be... There has to be some reason beyond just fun.
That's just me personally. I'm not trying to project that onto you. But how are you approaching... How you're traveling right now? Is it pretty just loosey-goosey or is it, you know, like you said, you're kind of learning... You're stepping into acro, learning that, you know, you want to become a better pilot. But are there more missions kind of like Tanzania in the future or, you know, are you more throwing a dart?
Well, there's probably a couple of questions. There is. Sorry, I do that all the time.
I'm not just hanging... I really tried to train my kite surfing side and my cross country side, my acro side. As I told you before, I may go into a bit of competition flying to learn more. That's one side. I wanted to have more time for the sports side. But also I thought why I stopped working at what we did, which actually, you know, from... I knew it back. Then already when I quit, it's a super nice job. I may not have something that great ever again, but still I could have kept going for years maybe and doing the same and being sort of happy.
But, man, the world is so big and there's so many approaches to life, so many different ways you can design your life. I just need to see more. Maybe in the future, I want to do even stuff which does have nothing to do with paragliding or kiting. It may be something completely different just to believe there is more than, you know, one sort of life we can live. And, you know, if you're from Switzerland, not having kids, I always have the chance to go back and just work.
There's absolutely no risk involved. There's
no risk involved, actually.
Right. There's no risk involved. It's just throwing everything there and trying stuff out, which I definitely want to do. And if you're not successful or maybe I want to create another business, there's some... Well, not really ideas yet. I don't even want to talk about it.
Yeah. You know, you don't have to. I mean... Honestly,
people, there's so many people there, they live in fear of something bad might happen in the future if you don't work and save money. And I totally agree. I totally disagree. If you're from such a lucky, lucky place where we are from, like from Switzerland or the States, we have money. We have options. And we really belong to the lucky few percent on this planet. And it would be almost sad if we don't appreciate the luck we have and risk things, try out things and live the life to the fullest, which is all fucking selfish. Oh, sorry, my language, eh? Yeah, no. I mean,
that's... I'm not religious, but amen, brother. Yeah, no, totally. I think that that's... It's
selfish, the whole thing. But maybe, you know, we could do something with a bit of more meaning, as you said, as well. I may not be quite ready yet.
No, you know, you can take your time. Like Joseph Campbell said, he never met an interesting 40-year-old that had something that... Wait. How does it go? The most interesting 40-year-old... The
most interesting 40-year-olds
I've ever met had no idea what they wanted to do with their lives, you know? That's a great one, because it's like, you know... What did he say? You don't have
40 years old.
Yeah, yeah. And you just turned 40, so you've got plenty of time. I
don't have 40. I still don't have a clue what I want to do.
Perfect. Perfect. Joseph Campbell would love you, and he was a very smart man. So, fantastic. Hey, okay, again, I'm kind of all over the map here, but I'm just smiling, digging this. In your years of running that school, because you said something when you created it, you know, even in Switzerland, which we all kind of view as, you know, it's got the APPI system, and it's just much more regulated and strict, and I think of Swiss schools as being very good, but you and I both know that schools around the world, there are good and there are bad, just like you pointed out, and it really depends a lot on who's teaching and not so much the system that you go through, whether it's USHPA or APPI or whatever. Yeah. What would you say to the students, because we have a lot of people that listen to the show that are, you know, very new and that are very much in need of still going to a school, or maybe they haven't even flown yet and they're trying to find a school.
How do you find a good school? You know, how do you go about, you know, finding you guys versus the guys down the street that maybe aren't doing as good a job?
I know there should be an easy way, but I think it's not even that easy because with, I would have said, you know, ask people you know who fly, they should give you a feedback on the school they were at. But sometimes that's not even true, you know. If you have a shit school and you're a nice guy, I'm sure your students find your school top and you're the best instructor just because you're a nice guy. That works, actually. That works with doctors. That works with any profession. So that may not even be the perfect approach, you know. People may say that's a good school, and it's not even the case. I really, in Switzerland, I know schools, they're really good, but the teacher is just a bit of a prick and people don't like him and therefore people think it's a shit school.
It's not, actually. It's just a prick of an instructor, but he has maybe a good approach and teaches you a really, really good way of flying. So that may not even be the perfect approach. So I wouldn't even know. I don't know. It's not so easy, but I guess it's still the best, asking as many people as you can find on a feedback on the school they were at.
Where should people... So imagine the kind of 200, 300, maybe even 400-hour pilot, maybe just getting into what we commonly call on the show intermediate syndrome. So they're getting pretty good at their home site. They're understanding how to fly in thermals. They're doing some XCs. They're having some success. They're excited. Maybe they're stepping up to a C-wing or something. Where do you like to see those people focus most? Is it SIV? Is it training? Where do you point those people? What direction do you point those people? Because that's a dangerous part. In my mind, that's kind of the most dangerous place that people get in this sport.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's beyond ignorance. Education-wise, I really think that's been in your show many times before, and I mostly agree. I think you can't do enough ground handling. It doesn't cost you anything. You can do it anywhere with a little bit of wind. And just playing with your wing as much as you can just gives you so much more safety at takeoff and flight and all that. I think that's... Yeah, that's... Anyone can do that.
SIVs, I think, yep, absolutely good approach. And it's been on your show as well. Before, to really master the difficult maneuvers, you've been talking a lot about stalls. And I think to really pull a stall in real conditions, you need to practice it a lot, man. I think you really need to practice it a lot. I think that's maybe not even the most important fact about an SIV. I think SIV, the first one, should be more getting to know your glider, getting confident with your glider. Maybe if you don't fly a top knot, a really high-performance glider. Getting to know that many times, it's pretty good if you just let it do its thing instead of overreacting. I'm not talking about C-plus gliders, you know.
And what is really important, and I really saw that with myself, is just the fact of having pulled that reserve once, knowing what's happening when you pull the reserve. It's obviously not a difficult thing to do, but it really changed my mindset. Towards that rescue so much. If you've seen it once, you're terribly nervous before you pull that reserve the first time. Over a lake, life vest, rescue boat and everything. Completely safe, but you're nervous. That's exactly what's so important about doing that once. The second time, when you may need it actually, not being nervous, being confident that thing works, I pull it and I'm most likely safe.
That's super important to do that, I think. That's great. Then, flying-wise, what can you do to stay safe?
I think if you can, it's really good if you can surround yourself with pilots who are better than yourself, who have more experience, and go fly with them and have them give you as much advice as possible. Every flying day is different. Conditions are always different. Flying in Fiesch, I'm just saying Fiesch because it's a known place. Flying in Fiesch can be super easy, but it can be super difficult the day after. It depends so much on conditions and everything. That's just so much experience. Flying in a paraglide and judging conditions has so much to do with experience.
The best thing you can do is just go with people who have much more experience than yourself.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking when I asked you about the risk that you wish pilots would take. That was where I felt like, we often talk about where you have maybe a breakthrough or you have an aha moment, the light bulb goes off. For me, it was with travel. When I really started flying a lot of different places,
you may not even feel like you're getting that much flight, but you really are. When you break away from your home site and you start flying it, and in the Alps there's so many sites that maybe people there just do it naturally. You follow the weather, but I think that that's a big one. That's a risk that I wish more people would take is going and flying new places because the air density is different, the weather is different, how you get the weather is different, the community is different.
You're automatically being challenged by all these little things that you may not even register.
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. If you have the time and you have the funds to do it, that's one that I wish more people did. I don't mean a lot of people do, but I think that's a good one. This migration to Colombia and Mexico and Brazil and stuff in the winter for all the northern hemisphere pilots is great to see. Sure. It's really good.
Absolutely. Yeah.
When you look out, give me your one year,
where do you see yourself in a year if you see yourself anywhere? Is it just day by day? It sounds like it's day by day.
Sort of day by day. Actually, I thought a year ago, I thought after a year I'm probably bored and I'm starting to look for something to do, and now it's a year later, and I'm not bored at all, and there's so much still to learn. So, yeah, I've got a bit of a plan. I'll head to Brazil now, and I'll go up to the northeast again where we met, going with the winch, where the Swiss league has done awesome flights last year on the winch in Brazil, which just gives you this extra, I'd say, hour, one and a half hours in the morning, since you don't have those, you know, those hills in the back of Queixadao takeoff where you don't want to end up because you're bombing out
in those winds. Yeah, that's the way to do it down there. You go early, you just hang on to a cloud and you can just take off early, right? And that's what I want to do, and once over in Brazil, it's just the same, you know, if you're a kite surfer up there, it's just kite surf heaven. You've got a huge coast with perfect winds every day. I want to do, a long downwind on my own, basically just me, my kite gear, maybe two pants and two shirts and the repair kit, pump, and just go down the coast and, you know, like a place, stay a couple of days, stay there, kite, continue down the coast and explore the coast in Brazil by myself. I want to do that.
Afterwards, I may go to Mexico and then go to the Monarca and see if I like competition flying or not. I'll be kiting with my girlfriend in Mexico, probably in Yucatan or Baja California. Yeah, next year, most likely focus, if I like it, on a bit of competition flying and I want to further improve my poor acro skills.
I may go to El Hierro, you know, the Canary Islands in March, which is a, yeah, a known place to do that and hope to, it's cool, I liked it, I didn't know I liked it so much, but it's just, it makes such a difference, just doing so many stalls and improving your, I just noticed it after, for me, flying 20 years after Organ Yard, flying in central Spain, cross country, I was not even close to being scared a single time and flying in pretty strong conditions and, you know, as people said, both were quite rough conditions at times, I just didn't affect me at all after six weeks of acro flying.
It was just all peanuts, you know. That's just, that effect alone is great.
Yeah, I think, I think as these guys, we started to see these guys like Pal Takats and Theo and, you know, these guys crossing over into cross country, you know, they're just, they're so, they're so competent under a wing that they're really, they're really a threat to, to, you know, us lazier cross country pilots. Everything that's just manual
or wing is, is no question to them. Exactly. They can put 100 % of, of, of focus on tactics and strategy and the wing, you know, it's just, it'll fly for sure, you know. Exactly. They don't have to focus on that. Exactly.
They're never worried about that and I think that, yeah, I'm almost, you know, I used to say that, you know, flying XC without doing regular SIV was just asking for trouble, you know, and now I, I really think that we should step it up and, and that should just become part of, you know, every pilot's lexicon. You don't have to be Pal Takats or Theo. In fact, most people are, will never even get close, including myself, but, you know, I just did, I just spent a week over the lake here up in Oregon doing a bunch of acro training and it's just, like you said, it's such a massive confidence boost. It just helps so much. You just don't think about, you know, the little stuff that would make you nervous and make your heart rate go up goes away and then you, you can let your subconscious do all the work and it's just, it's such a massive safety factor, I think.
Yeah, yeah. So, how's your acro career going?
Well, it'll never be, number one, it's not a career. It'll, it never will be, but, you know what, I just actually, little, little plug here, but, I was on the new Niviuk E-Gravity. So, I've been hearing from, you know, Andre Pershasko, all the guys, all the acro, you know, Jedis that I've had on the show, they all say the same thing. You do not want to learn acro on a, you know, on a freestyle or an acro wing, you know, learn it on a B.
Yeah, I agree
100%. Yeah, and so I've been on the F-Gravity, which is a terrific freestyle wing, but I've been on that since 2012.
It's one of
his SIV clinics, but he brought in a guy to teach me acro, Johann, and, and that was, that was great. But it was, it was interesting actually that week, the first day he said, he, you know, hey, what do you want to learn? You know, where are you? And I was like, well, I'm super comfortable with, with stalls and deep stalls and sat and, but, you know, I'd love to learn helis. And he's like, no chance, we're not even going to try. And I was like, wait, why?
We're going to nail deep stall and start heli-ing in a week. Like, let's do dynamic stuff. And so, so we did. And so, but I have been struggling, you know, to, to get heli now for years, because, A, because I, I do it like one week a year, you know, so I don't, I don't live in a place where I can practice acro, but also because I was on the F-Gravity. It's just way too bitey. You know, I was constantly getting spun up and twisted and cravatted and it's just too spicy. And, so, Nivi, and, and a bunch of manufacturers are doing it. Gradient, Ozone, they're all, they're all making these kind of learning acro wings. And so, they just released this E-Gravity. So, I was on that and God, dude, it was so nice. It was just mellow. You cannot screw up stalls.
You just can't. I, I never had a cravat. I never twisted up. Was I nailing helis? Absolutely not. But, you know, it's just got a much wider range for screwing up. You know, you can just, Yeah.
but it's not, you know, it, it still has the thick lines and it's still got longer lines. So, it still has more energy. So, it's not like learning it on a bee. It's, it's a bee wing. It's certified as a bee, but it was, it was delicious, man. It was, it was really super fun. You know, like you'd hit the beach and be psyched for the next run, not trembling. You know, which half the time before, I was kind of trembling. I was like, fuck, what did I just do wrong? You know? The, the glider was always one step ahead, whereas this time, it was like I was ahead of the glider, which was really nice. That was, it was just comfortable. Yeah.
Yeah, some, some of these freestyle gliders, they're, I think they're great for most dynamic things, but talking about the F Gravity, that, that wing actually, at the two, I think it was, actually scared me. It, it, it made me not go acro for quite a while because I, I tried deep souls and helis. Every time heli exit, the wing, and since it's got pretty long break, break range, oh, I, I just felt so scared. Now, now I would say, if, if someone would ask me to recommend an approach, I don't know that E Gra, the, the E Gravity, that kind of wings, I would have said, just take one of the easy, the easier, and bite your acro wings. Just take an easy one. I'm not gonna mention brands now, but an easy acro wing, just in a rather big size, and, and you've got a, a very safe and good approach, I'd say, because you still have short break range, but it's not so bitey, and it just works.
They, they, they just work nowadays, and yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think if you really wanna learn acro, you just really gotta take your time, otherwise it's, Yeah, exactly.
You really, you really do. You really have to take your time. You need
time. You need time. And
have the respect for the technical stuff. Like the, you know, the, like you said, the dynamic stuff on the F-Gravity was, was so fun, but it, man, you pay for mistakes. You know, you just, it's so easy to go into that wing, or loop through the lines, or, you know, when it jumps, it wants to jump, and it, because it's a freestyle wing, that's what they're built to do. And so, yeah, really tough to build. I spent, I, I wasted a lot of time actually, trying to learn that on, on that wing, and it's, so it's, you know, and my, my acro partner here had been saying that the last couple years. He's like, dude, just get a low B. It'll be so much easier. And, and that was, that was genius. That, that's been really nice, so.
Dominique, thanks man. I, I really appreciate it. This has just been a total blast, and to catch up with you, I'm kind of, I'm kind of jealous that you're going down to tow in Brazil. I, I'd like to jump on that. That was,
I got
a couple more, couple hundred kilometers more runway, and you know, you can just go so big. So, I hope that goes really well for you. I'll be watching you on, on the XC Find, and, but thanks, thanks for your time, man, and I'll, I'll enjoy your time there in Tarifa kite surfing.
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me on the show, and yeah, hopefully, I, I hope to get over to, to the States at some point in my life as well. May,
yeah, we, we big air and big high base, and yeah, you dig it. I'd, I'd love to have you over here and show you around. It's a pretty special place.
Cool. Well, thanks, Kevin.
Thanks, Dominique. Talk, talk soon. Bye.
Thank you. Catch you later. Bye-bye.
I hope you enjoyed that. What a cool conversation with a very good dude. That was a lot of fun. I hope you got something out of that. As always, all we ask for is a buck a show. This is a listener-supported podcast, and I've gone into this in the past why we do it that way instead of using sponsors. I hate sponsors, and I, not my personal sponsors, but sponsoring a podcast like this, you know, I just don't like listening to all that goofy stuff in the beginning, and I fear, I fear that if we do that, then you're, you're wondering if I'm trying to sell mattresses how authentic these conversations are. So, we're skipping all that and just relying on you. And if you can't do it financially, totally understand that, and, but there are many other ways you can support it. You can share it with your friends, you can blog about it, you can put it up on the social medias, you can talk about it on the way up to launch.
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