Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud-Based Mayhem. Sorry we're a couple days late with this one. I was out at Chelan for the U.S. Nationals, which was once again terrifically good fun. A couple of tasks there that we had never done before, flying up into the mountains in Winthrop and Mazama and stuff, and then up almost to the Canadian border on another one, and had another flight on one of the canceled days with Mitch and Matt Henzey and Don Izette. Well, those guys actually made it out to the Idaho border, so some really fun flying, terrific learning, and that was a blast. But it also put us a little behind the eight ball with some of our shows, so thank you for your patience. Got a really terrific show for you today. I just got off the line with Greg Hammerton at Flybubble over in the U.K.
I'm sure you're familiar with them. They put out these amazing videos on progression and safety and flying and techniques and strategies and tips and stuff and ground handling, and their videos are super professional, really well done. And they're a huge store, and they do a really good job with gear and gear reviews and pretty unbiased stuff. And so we talk about all kinds of things in this one, a little bit of comp flying and flying slow and pilot progression. We cover a lot of topics, too much to get into right now, but I think you're going to really enjoy it. Greg? Greg's super articulate. He participated in the X-Peer. He's done a ton of bivvy flying, and that's really kind of his passion.
So he and I, of course, had some common ground there, and it was just a really fun conversation with a lot of tips and stuff that I think you're really going to enjoy. Before I get into that, many of you know I listen to Sam Harris, the Sam Harris podcast, a lot, and he had some really good thoughts. His show is not sponsored. It's like ours is. It's listener-supported. He has, of course, millions of listeners, so very different economics, but I like what he's been saying. The last few shows, he's been talking about why he's chosen to go that route and be listener-supported in this age of kind of free content that's often covered by sponsors. The Mayhem has also been contacted by companies because we're starting to have a pretty big reach to have sponsors, and I just feel like that's not a really authentic way to go.
You know, when you have that kind of sponsor. In the beginning, number one, it drives me crazy in podcasts to have to listen to the same ad over and over again, but also if you feel like if a sponsor is, say, a wing manufacturer and I start pushing wing, then you might question my authenticity about the advice that's given out on the show. Most of the advice is, of course, coming from my listeners, and we have a lot of different opinions about this wacky, wild, absurd sport that we participate in, and so it's their opinions, not mine, but I certainly chime in. And I just think it's a better way to resonate with you, the listener, and I want you to be able to trust me. And you may not agree with me, but I think if we throw sponsors into the mix, one, it's annoying, and two, it's not an authentic way for me, at least, to participate with you.
And I think that by having it listener-supported and by having you support the show, then I think that's just a direct... Little man. When we first got started, that didn't really make much sense to me, and it seems odd. I have trouble asking for money, but I also think that it hopefully is a great resource. That's what I'm hearing from a lot of people. But at the same time, I don't want it to ever be a hardship. I don't even want this to impinge on your daily latte. There are people who can easily afford it, and for those folks, you know, they support the show, it's absolutely terrific. I don't want it to be a hardship. It should never be. We will continue to do it for free. We will always do it for free.
And, you know, if there's enough people supporting the show, we can always do it without sponsors. So, I'm sorry for the long rant there, but that's just how I feel about it. I agree with Sam Harris. That's how he's doing it. It's just a great way, I think, to reach a ton of people with really valuable information. I think it's making the community safer and more aware. And... I'm hearing all the time from folks all over the world and, you know, at these comps that it's really helped them or it's helped them escape a potential accident or something, or if they've gotten in one, it's helped them get out of it. You know, like with the stuff with Matt Wilkes, about all the trauma and rescue advice that was just terrific. So, there's tons of great stuff there, and if you can support the show, awesome.
And, like I've always said in all the other ones, there are so many ways to do it that aren't financial as well, just by sharing it or... you know, posting about it or talking about it on the way up to launch. So, again, sorry to put that in there. And hopefully you fast forward it. If you're already a supporter, you don't need to hear this every time, but I really appreciate it. And now, without further delay, please enjoy this most excellent talk with Greg Hammerton at Flybubble.
Greg, awesome to have you on the show. I've been following your stuff, and now seeing when I was over in the UK with Ed doing a little tour north of Nome before the last exile. Greg, awesome to have you on the show. I've been following your stuff, and now seeing when I was over in the UK with Ed doing a little tour north of Nome before the last exile. Greg, awesome to have you on the show. I've been following your stuff, and now seeing when I was over in the UK with Ed doing a little tour north of Nome before the last exile. It was pretty cool hanging out with some of your crew. I can't remember the site, but it was a really neat day. And I've just been excited to talk to you guys. It's just... it seems like a really cool crew and a really cool approach to paragliding, from instruction to gear to everything down the line. So, I'm pretty excited to have you on the show. Thanks for your time.
Thanks, Gavin. Yeah, I'm very, very excited to be on the show, too. It's great to chat to your listeners and share what we do.
Cool. Well, hey, we were chatting a little bit before we started, and I thought I might just throw a curveball at you. I've been asking this one with a few guests lately right off the bat, because it's kind of fun, rather than getting into history and all that, which we will do. You've been flying a long time, I think since 92, I read on the website. But can you think back all the way to 92 and pull out a real gem of a story, of a flying story?
92. I mean, that's... No,
not... you don't have... just any time. Between 92 and now. Yeah. Just like your favorite, your most memorable moment with paragliding, for whatever reason.
Okay. Now, there are hundreds of things. I mean, going back into the early days, one of the things that really sticks in my mind is my first Volvo adventure, where I got a friend to drop me off in some mountains that had never been flown before in the inland interior of South Africa, and proceeded to walk up to start this epic adventure, and discovered right away what Volvo flying really is like. I had a massive pack. I had too much gear. I walked up the mountain. It started raining. I got sort of reined in for a day. And then after doing a big ascent, took a big glide off, which was going to be the start of this massive Volvo, and proceeded to bomb in the bottom of the mountain in an incredible, accessible area, and had to walk out and try it again.
And the wind switched the next day, and I was in the lee, and I bombed out again, and I ended up hitchhiking back home. So, tail between my legs. So, that was my intro to Volvo flying, and I've loved it. You know, I love it, and I've been doing it ever since.
So, that was your intro to biv, no fly, no Volvo, just biv. Yeah,
biv, biv, biv. Hike and biv.
Well, tell me about some of the other bivs you've done since.
Well, I try and do one a year. Oh, wow. Sometimes, you know, sometimes I can do more than that. And I've kind of developed a weekend biv, which is wonderful, because you can usually do this, do it impromptu, and you know, you've just suddenly got a gap, and you can go off and do it. So, I really love the two-day bivy, where you just take your kit, and you go somewhere, where you'd normally fly, but you fly off and, you know, just follow the sky, and camp out, and come back at the end of the weekend. So, I've recently just done one in Wales, which was fantastic. I'm busy editing a film about that, because it's just so much fun. When you do a short one, it's not as grueling. You don't have to, you know, really prepare for it. You just go out, have some fun, come back, and, you know, you can have a shower when you get back.
And I don't know what Wales is like. I haven't spent a lot of time in the UK. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we went up and visited Jockey in the lakes. And it's just such a perfect place for bivvy. I mean, you can top land anywhere.
Yeah, absolutely. It's worth it. You can walk up, you know, any of the hills. You can walk up in, I don't know, an hour and a half, two hours. You know, you don't need to be, you know, an ex-alps athlete to do it. You can just take some sort of moderately light gear, and off you go. So, yeah, it's fantastic for that. But normally, Wales is one of the wettest parts of England. At the moment, it's dry and crackly like Spain, and the cloud base is at 7,000 foot. So, it is perfect at the moment for bivvy.
Yeah. This heat wave that's hitting the world is really helping your guys flying, isn't it? It sounds like you've had a great season.
Yeah. Yeah. I know I'm supposed to be sad about climate change, but at the moment, it's favoring England flying.
And do you still spend quite a bit of time in South Africa, or is England home?
England's home now. I go back to South Africa once a year. I would go more often, but the flight is prohibitively expensive to get down there with the family. So, you know, we do once a year, and I usually get some flying in when I go back home. But yeah, UK is my home now. I've got flying sites within half an hour of the home. So, you know, I just wait for the flying weather to pop up, and then I go out and catch it.
So, I want to talk a lot more about. I've got a bunch of questions in my head just from what you've already said. But before we get into it, tell me, like, the genesis of Flybubble, what you guys do, you know, how it works. You've got this great website, and it kind of, there's some terrific stuff on training, lots and lots of videos. It seems like gear is a really big deal. We don't actually talk about gear much on the show. So, that'd be a good segue.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, Flybubble is a crew. There's a team of us. It's mainly Carla and Nancy. Carla Borsettina and Nancy Elliott, who started the business. But I've known Carla for years. We flew together in PWCs in 97.
We ran a paragliding school together in Wales back then. And in about 2000, I think, the Flybubble business was born. Carla and Nancy were doing training and tripping. And it grew from there. And I moved over from South Africa. And of course, when I came here, he was the first person I called. And I joined up with the school and became one of the instructors. So, it's a crew which has grown over time. We've also got Simon, who's a very experienced local pilot and a really nice guy. He's really very helpful. And we've got Boris and Michelle, who've joined last year. So, you know, between...
The group, we've got a lot of experience and a lot of instructing experience, which we kind of try and pass on through the articles and through, you know, videos and when we're dealing with customers.
And what have you guys, you know, changed over the years? What's the... What are the kind... You know, when you guys powwow in the evenings, you know, what's... How does it work when you come to Flybubble as a brand new student? You know, what are you guys trying to... Where do you try to get a student to? And how do you do it?
Well, the thing is that we've evolved through the years. We started off with training and, you know, basic students taking them through from day one. We also had tandem flights, trips, and then the equipment sales as well. And we found that what was happening was we were so busy managing the different elements in the business that we weren't being effective at any of them because it was just too much work to do. You know, if you're running a paragliding school, if you're an instructor, you constantly need to be looking after your students. They're phoning you with questions. You know, you're doing the training thing. But then you also, if you're running a shop, you have to manage stock levels.
You have to be testing gear. There's a lot of other work. And we found that we were running around like headless chickens all the time trying to do all of the different aspects. So we've recently... refocused the business down to mainly it's just about gear. And the instruction stuff we are doing with the articles and the videos so that more people can benefit from it. And it takes us less time per person that we're not, you know, one-on-one instructing. We're sharing it with, you know, 20,000 pilots in one go with the video.
Yeah. I've seen your videos are terrific. There's a terrific... videos on ground handling and, you know, really a lot of the different aspects. So I highly encourage the listeners to check out your website and we'll have all these links in the show notes. But yeah, good work there. So you're finding that that's just a better way to cover the bases.
Yeah. I mean, it's partly the videos and the articles are for our customers. So we're trying to, you know, help them fly. The idea being that, you know, if the more knowledge that the pilots have, the more they get out of the sport and they're more stoked they are. So that's good for us and it's good for everybody. So we try and do that. The instructional articles and the videos kind of keep that going regularly to do the education side of things. But it does mean that it frees up the time for Carla and Nancy and Simon and Boris and Michelle at the office to deal directly with customers rather than having to, you know, manage the school and be answering a thousand questions. About how does the speed bar get attached and, you know, what's a thermal.
So it seems to be working quite well because we, we've now, you know, everybody's still working as, as much as they were, but the time is more focused on, on one activity rather than jumping from one to the other. You know, we'd love to do trips. We've got one, one small trip coming up in Columbia at the end of the year. So we occasionally do trips. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to say that we don't do instruction. We, you know, we might switch that on at any time and do an advanced course or, you know, tandem flying or something like that. It's available, but at the moment where we are, we're growing pretty quickly and we want to make sure that we are looking after the customers that are dealing with us through the shop and not be running around trying to chase too many, too many streams in the business.
Okay. So there, so. So right now there actually isn't a flyable school.
No, no. At the moment we haven't got students that, that be training. We stopped at a year or two ago. And the tandem flying as well, we found we, you know, we were just doing tandem flying and then you didn't have time for the shop customers or you didn't have time to do your solo flying. And that was the big, the big drain when you're running a school and doing tandems. We were always on the hill instructing and we were missing out on the big XC days. And that was kind of affecting our passion for the sport, because that was really why we're doing this whole thing is so that we can get to fly more. You know, and, and when you end up, when you turn that into your business and then it's preventing you from getting to the flying, it works against your passion.
So I think that's a big reason why we, we focus at the way we have is that we can have, you know, office time and fly time. And when we fly, we're either reviewing a wing, which is cool, or we're out, you know, just following the good sky.
So I'll ask you some gear questions, but please be honest with the, the audience that if there's, you know, if there's bias because of the certain companies that you work with, just let us know. But you know, what, what companies are you pretty excited about right now in terms of what they're making? And what they're pushing? What they're, you know, where things are headed?
Okay. Well, yeah, let me, let me answer the biasing straight away because that's kind of relevant to everything that we do at Flybubble. We, you know, if we only had one brand, then for sure we would have bias. It's impossible not to have bias. And we've seen that quite a lot over the years with different dealers popping up and, you know, different retail structures that, you know, if you've got one brand, then, then inevitably the deal is like, wow, wow, this is the best ever. And it's, it's not good for customers. It's, you know, you, you're not being entirely honest. So we've worked hard to make sure we've got a big range of brands so that we've picked up quite a few, I think seven or eight major manufacturers so that there's a range.
And then we're free to recommend within that range. So we're not, we don't feel like we have to punt this slider because there's so many other ones in that same class. And then we're free to, you know, choose the right one. But of course we, we don't represent every brand. So we're not even going to mention the other brands because we don't feel we need to, there's enough, you know, with the, with the manufacturers that we've got, we've got enough to work with. And if we go beyond that, you just start getting analysis paralysis. You know, you've got so many different brands that you think, oh, but this one, and this one's five quid cheaper. And, and it starts working against the pilot's interest when you have too many. So we've kind of found a balance point of enough brands.
And we've also through the years, we've worked directly with all of these companies. We know which ones are really good with the customer support. And, you know, if there's something wrong with a glider that often doesn't get seen, but we know which ones are really good, you know, production wise. And service wise. So we've filtered that list down to companies that are really cool to deal with. So, you know, there, I would say the outstanding company for us is advance. They are just absolutely top notch. The, the, the, the whole attitude, the way that they develop their products, the way they manufacture them and the, the personal contact when, you know, you have everything.
Any, any kind of problem they're, they're on it, they're sorting things out. So, you know, I'd highlight them, but I don't want to be unfair to the other brands in that they're all the ones that we have picked. You know, they're, they're all brilliant. A new brand that's just come out is FEE with Hannes Papesch. He's doing something a little bit new and different in that he's making low aspect ratio wings with high performance. So, you know, he, it is kind of his trademark. He was the guy behind the mentor three and a lot of the Nova wings for many, many years. And he's now producing his own wings and carrying that philosophy forward. So we're very excited about those gliders because they, I think they're doing the right thing in that a lot of pilots want the performance but they're, they get a wing that
they think. Is awesome. And then in the 5 % of rubbish conditions that, you know, you, at some point you fly into some really bad air they get overwhelmed because they've bought too much performance and they can't handle it. And having a wing that's kind of low aspect, I think is the key to having something that sorts itself out really easily. So it's it's a, it's nice to see that a brand that's working on safety and not, pushing performance as, as a priority. But kind of building it in baking it into the gliders. I
hadn't even heard of Hanush doing that. That that's, that's pretty cool.
Yeah. He's released to release quite a lot of gliders and a lot of A's. He's got a sort of an A school glider and a training lighter. That's more sophisticated. You could do cross country on and another a that's a super high a and the B the B I've just released the 10 or. Review video. We just done that, which is a sort of a mid B which pretty much keeps up with all the high B's and then he's getting a high B to complete his range. So he's got five gliders. They're all B or a and I don't think he's far as I know, I don't think he's venturing into C or D class. I think he's focused to, to make a, you know, really impressive.
B so that's, it's kind of new and interesting, you know, and, but, uh, you know, otherwise across, across the range there, you know, all, all the brands are competing. Um, and pretty much there's nothing that comes out these days. That's bad. There are only differences in, in the handling, you know, differences in the character of the week.
What's your favorite B, your favorite C and your favorite D.
Okay. Favorite B at the moment. I would say, uh, advanced Yotta too. Okay. Um, very sorted, very, very nice. Um, favorite C, um, it's going to sound like I'm biased, but it's advanced Sigma 10. Okay. I'll go for an advanced again. Um, I've just flown a whole range of C's. Um, and my priority is handling. So I wasn't concerned about performance, top speed, anything like that. I was just going on. The handling on, on which glider I felt was very precise and responded exactly as I wanted. Um, so that was a Sigma 10, but there are a lot of really good C's out at the moment.
Um, so it makes it a difficult decision. You know, they're definitely a lot of wings that, that would compete for, for the Sigma 10, um, favorite D.
Um, I've been flying the advanced. X-Alps, which is a D um, super light, and I've just downgraded myself. Um, being that it's a, it's a ultra light, high performance wing, and I don't feel I'm doing enough hours to, to fly that at a hundred percent. Um, just, I know that the, the C I have absolutely no question of whether I'm, I can handle it. Um, the D in bad conditions. I think if you're going to be flying D's, you need to be doing regular SIV and 300 hours plus in a year.
Um, you know, you need to be that current and connected. And I'm probably getting 150 to 200 hours a year. Um, and I, I don't need the performance and the aspect ratio because I'm not comparing with other pilots when I'm flying, you know? I'm doing my own little missions and film projects and things. So I, I just felt coming down gave gives me complete safety. Um, and still the same sort of enjoyment. Um, but, um, favorite D's I don't get to fly D's as much as I would like. Um, it's mainly to do with the focus on the YouTube channel, um, because most of our pilots are in the B category.
Um, we tend to be reviewing B wings and sometimes C's, but to review a D class wing isn't really worth our while in that there's a very small audience for that. Um, so I occasionally I'll do a D just for fun, for my own personal enjoyment. Um, last one that I, that stands out would be the peak for, um, really like the New York wings. Um, I had a, an ice peak six before that, which is probably the best wing off. Beautiful wing. Yeah. It was just brilliant. Um, so yeah, that, that would be outstanding sort of outstanding wing for me.
And then the best A I would say is the Fiji Symphonia. Um, because it's a super high A.
God, I like it just for the name, the Symphonia. That's
beautiful. Yeah.
Um, it's, it's more of a, of a B in, in feel, um, but it's got the A safety. Um, but that's a, it's a very nice wing to fly. But what I've noticed this year when we're reviewing wings, um, across the board, all of the wings seem to have sorted pitch dampening out. There seems to be very little going on in pitch, um, flying through rough air. The wings aren't getting knocked back. Yeah. And they're not diving forward. So it means it has very little active flying needed to keep the glider efficient. And because it's doing that, it's getting a much better glide through the air because it's not getting knocked around so much. So that's something that's kind of stood out this year that I've, I've noticed I've been flying, you know, flying a wing.
And then I do my normal sort of dolphins and kind of get the glider to dive around and then fly through some rough air and see what it does. And they, they, across the board, they seem to be really balanced in pitch, which is really nice. It's, it makes a much more secure feeling.
How do you teach folks? And, and I know you guys aren't doing the school now, but it sounds like you've got years of experience doing it. Um, when, when people first get their, you know, their kind of first C and, and they, they start learning how to fly a glider on the C, um, we've been talking about this a lot lately that it's, you know, it's really not intuitive to use the speed bar and the C's correctly. You know what I mean? Like you're, you're, you're flying along glide, you're using a bunch of bar and you hit a thermal, what does everybody do? They come off and, and, and of course that pitches it back even more, you know, so it's not, it's not intuitive. How do you, how did you guys, um, approach that with, with students?
Well, I mean the, the, the sort of flying on bar and into thermals is that's the sort of a cross country training that's quite advanced. And we didn't have a lot of students in that, in that group. Um, we found, you know, typically people start the sport and they do the intro course and then they want training up to sort of club pilot level. Um, there was a very, although there's a big need for the training at the higher levels, there's a very low demand, um, in that people, very few people actually pay the money to improve their flying, which is partly why I do a lot of the videos and sort of XC secrets and things like that. Because. They're free. Hey, so the guys will watch them, right.
You know, and it helps them. And you know, there, there, there's a sort of a desire to learn, but I think, um, pilots often undervalue the, the value of instruction. Um, and getting a coaching session for XC flying is very difficult to make it commercially viable because it's, it's so one-on-one with the pilot, you know, that you, you doing such a high level instruct instruction. The closest we came was taking guys up on the tandem and doing cross country flights with the, with them on the tandem. And I think that's well worth any pilot doing. That's wanting to improve the XC flying is just ask one of the local tandem pilots pay the normal rate for a tandem flight. Um, and, and just say, you know, you want to do XC training and you, you're probably going to get a double or triple length flight out of that tandem pilot because they'd be so happy to do something different.
Um, and the tandem pilots are usually rare. They're really good at thermaling because it means they stay up and earn money. Um, and they're usually very experienced pilots, so they could definitely help. And that's probably your easiest go-to for, for that training is, is to find a local tandem pilot that's into doing XC and, and, you know, go and do a flight with them. So, you know, we did a lot of that, um, flying with a pilot in the front and then letting them have the controls and then talking them through what they're doing and why are they speeding up, slowing down and, you know, finding lines through the air. Um, but the, to come back to your original question, the actual timing of speed bar inputs, it's difficult to train Gavin. It's, uh, you know, you, you're not worth the pilot when they're doing it.
And, um, I was actually yesterday trying to make a video on exactly that, um, flying along and, you know, using the bar and talking it through what I'm doing. Um, it's, it's even there. It's difficult to show. What you're doing, because it's a feeling in your legs and in your gut, you know, it comes from your, uh, connection with the tension in the a-lines. And I'm, I'm trying to make a video on that, but I must be honest. It's, it's very difficult to, to show it in any way, because there's nothing to see. It's, uh, I can feel where the tension is coming from in my glider, whether it's a a-line. It's b-lines or c-lines, but if you look at the, the geometry of the system, it's hard to believe because you've got three rises connecting to one carabiner point.
So how on earth am I feeling the pressure in the A's or B's or C's, but I can sit without touching the rises. I can certainly sense when the leading edge is going soft without looking at the glider. And so I'm not too sure how to pass that on. That's hard to
tell. I think
it comes. I mean, you, you've got the same feeling, you know, when you're flying around in the air, you, you've got a connection with your wing and that builds up. I think it's just airtime. You need a hell of a lot of airtime flying in unsettled conditions before that kicks in that sense of the wing is part of you. It's not something that's connected to you.
Yeah. One of the things I, I always kind of cringe when I hear is, man, it just disappeared. Yeah. You know, I, I, I, you know, when, when, if you're having, I think self-assessment, this is a big topic I've been on now for a few months. I think self-assessment is so important that people do that. They, you know, if you're having frontals, you're, you're on the wrong wing or you're not, you're not current. You just shouldn't have them period. You know, you're, you're not in touch with what's going on with your wing.
Yeah. No, definitely. And there's a lot, a lot that pilots that sort of learning or beginner pilots don't realize that they're doing that makes the wing more unstable.
But the best training is really airtime. I think it's something, you know, it's like a bird learning to fly and, you know, within a couple of weeks they've had hundreds of hours of airtime and for us to get a hundred hours of airtime, it takes a couple of years. So. Really the, the pilots that are starting out and wanting to improve and, and remove the, the sort of big collapses they're having from their flying. It's, uh, they need to get a lot of more airtime. So just get out and fly a lot more. There's
no magic
pill, is there? No, you know, for sure. They could do an SIV course. Um, and, uh, you know, pilotage, something like fly gear offers in, in NSE, um, where they teach you more about the connection, the contact with the wing. Um, those help, um, you know, but you only do one a year and that kind of boosts your flying level up, but then you need to do hundreds of hours yourself in thermic conditions to build up that whatever part of your senses and brain it is that, that has a connection with the wing. Um, and the better that gets the, the fewer collapses you're going to have for sure. Um, I, I I'd say that definitely. I agree with what you said.
You're saying that, you know, when the wing just blew out and there was no warning that it's, it's mainly the pilot. Um, but having said that the gear does make a big difference there. Um, particularly the class of wing, uh, you're not going to get that sort of big unexpected blow out on an a, um, and, and you probably will be getting it on a D um, and mainly because the aerofoil is so much narrower. The camber is so much smaller on that aerofoil. So it's got, it's got less tolerance for having random big gusts from different directions. Whereas the, the a wing is just so big. It's a soaks up any kind of variation and it's still producing lift.
Um, so, you know, going up, upgrading to a higher class wing, you, you want to make sure that you're absolutely maximum. You're not just fixing out the wing that you're on before you upgrade so that you, you're not just stepping into, you know, a big collapse risk. Um, you need to have that full connection with the class that you're on and kind of be getting bored of the class, um, before stepping up and then that's the right time. Then, then you can learn to manage the new energy on the new wing. That's terrific advice.
But one thing I did notice. Flying the two liners, um, there's a big difference between a two liner, um, in terms of resistance to collapses and a three liner. Um, the two liner is really resilient and strong and resists a lot of abuse. Um, I'm thinking mainly of the ice peak six here that I flew for many years. Um, I had zero collapses on that wing I had in three. Years of flying in the Alps in South Africa, all around Spain, I had occasionally I'd have a little tip flutter or something like that, um, where I just got the tip out of the side of the thermal, but no big collapses.
And I was quite surprised. I was expecting to have, you know, more epic situations on it, but it's the way that the wing is so highly pressured. Um, and so much tension and. Pressure on the, on the a, towards the front of the glider, um, with the setback A's, it does make a big difference. So on that sort of wing, um, you're not going to be getting out of the blue, um, bloods that, you know, you're really going to know, um, the wing can hold on quite a long way before it goes. Um, whereas a three liner, I transitioned from that straight onto the ultra light, super light X ups wing. Um, and straight away started having collapses, um, you know, big ones that without much warning,
um, so, you know, the gear definitely does affect it. It's not just the pilot. I mean, I was the same pilot in both situations, but I certainly had to learn. Um, I had to learn to become super fast, um, on, on the ultra light wing with my reactions in active flying. Um, and it's something that pilots maybe don't. I don't realize when they looking at wings and wanting to get, you know, lighter kits and it's all the rage at the moment with, you know, Volbo and hike and fly racing that, you know, you need lighter gear. Um, but you've got to realize when you, when you make a wing with the priority being lightweight,
the other things are going to suffer. There will be compromises because they aren't making the wing the way they would normally make the wing. Sure. Um, you know, if they just have an open palette and they decide, right, we designing a really nice wing in the C-class, it'll come out at a certain weight. It'll be five and a half kilos or so, you know, with all this reinforcing, when you try and make that three, you have to compromise on some areas in the wing to get that amazing lightweight. And I, what I'm feeling is it's you, you need to do a lot more active flying on the lightweight wing. You have to be much more on it and you've got to be very fast with your reactions. It comes out fine. You know, they reinflate super fast, but you definitely are going to be having more,
um, wing management and collapses than you would on a, on a standard weight wing, which, which is kind of why I've gone back to the Sigma now, which is a semi light construction. It's kind of a normal paraglider. That's just a little bit lighter than normal. Um, it, it just gives me less glider management. Um, and it allows me to be more happy and relaxed in the air, um, at the cost of a, you know, a kilo and a bit of, of carrying up the hills.
So that's what you're using for Vivi as well.
Yeah. Yeah. I did use it for Vivi. I did a hike and fly race last week, um, in Wales as well. Also with, with the Sigma 10, um, I think if I did the X-Pyr, I would do it again with, with the Sigma 10, um, you know, something that it just gives me that base control. Um, I think you mentioned something about that when you were doing the X help. So when you, and you used your ice peak seven, um, and you said you wanted something that made you feel like Superman, you know, it's, it's, it doesn't, it doesn't affect you in the first day or two of a hike and fly race. But if you, if you've got a long haul, like the X-Pyr or X helps, you know, day three or day four, you, you just, you need a wing. That's that's going to soak up your mistakes of it. And it's going to give you some, um, you know, it won't demand that instant focus all the time.
Right, right. Yeah. I, I, I went through that kind of battle again in the 2017 with the climber versus the peak four. Um, you know, and, and it was because I, I, I had the same thing. I didn't have a lot of time on the climber before the race. It had just come out and, uh, and I hadn't flown a three liner in years, a really long time and, uh, it was just totally different. And now I've. I love that wing. Uh, but it, in the beginning I was like, wow, why do I keep losing my wing? This is yeah. So you're, you're absolutely right. It was, I had that happen in a long time. Yeah.
Do you still feel, would you go back to two liner just for, for general flying? Are you still flying the climber?
I, I fly the climber, uh, just mostly when I'm just having fun and, and hiking and flying and, and around town. I, I, I love it and it's light. Um, and like, but like you said, it, it does require more management. But I, I, I grew to love it in the beginning. I found it pretty tricky and, uh, and, you know, I kept losing the tips and it was just super different than flying a two liner as you, as you pointed out. And my favorite wing of course, is, has, has been the ice peak six for a long time for the same reasons that you said. I just, I love that wing. And so, you know, on the, on the big days or, you know, when I'm, uh, trying to go fast or go far, I'm, I'm on the peak for, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's still a gorgeous wing. I can't wait to see what they do with the peak five or whatever they call it, but I've, I've got an Evox on the way.
So I've got the new CCC glider coming and I'm pretty excited about that.
Cool. Are you going to be doing comps this coming year? I
just, yeah, I just did a couple. We just had Applegate and we had us nationals and then, uh, and, but I'm, I'm heading over to Macedonia for the Nordic open at the end of August, which will actually be fun. It's a place I've never flown. And so I'll be on that wing for that one should be a good time. Yeah. If you could, this is a hard one, but if you could kind of generalize, like, uh, put all the B pilots into, into one group, uh, and if you had a recommendation for them, what, what would it be? And what, what are, what are the things, what are the training things are a training thing that those pilots need the most?
Um, you know, is it, is it thermaling? Is it gliding? Is it glider control? Is it ground handling? Is there, is there kind of something that you. That, you know, gosh, I wish I could improve this in this group of people.
One thing is very, very difficult because I think, you know, there's so many, so many unique characters in, in the sport and, and they, they all have their own challenges and things to work on and, you know, strengths and weaknesses. Um, I mean, the, the thing that always comes up is ground handling, um, as a basic foundation. Um, and I would say for sure that will benefit. Just about any pilot. I think it's across all, all classes. Uh, I see regularly when you go to comps, you know, you look at the launch side and a comp and you think, Oh God, these guys are supposed to be top level pilots, but probably half the field, um, are out of control on the ground, you know, most of the time and then, you know, way, Oh, wow.
They're in the air. That's better. And everything tightens up and then they know what they're doing. So I think a lot of pilots could benefit from ground handling. Um, and it's not just. Going to a flat field where you really, you, you get a run out of things to do on a flat field pretty quickly. Um, it's going to a flying site. Um, that's got a bit of a slope on it and mucking around, you know, just doing low level flying, coming in and stalling the wing, keeping it flying again and taking off and doing all that sort of messing about. Um, I think that for, for any pilot, that's, that's something that's really vital. Um, we're spoiled for choice in the UK. Um, you know, all of our Hills, all of the launch sites, you know, you can fit 200 pilots on them and the guys can run around and not upset anybody by doing ground handling.
So I think that's, uh, something that UK pilots have got available that they should be making more use of, um, but they don't, um, in other places in the world, for sure. You've, you know, you've got a postage stamp site in a Rocky. Scree slope. You're not going to be doing ground handling. Um, so, you know, you, you've got to use what you've got available to you where you are, but for sure, if you can do ground handling, we've got a, um, a video that I did on sort of top 10 tips for ground handling, um, if you just link to that and, you know, guys check that out. Um, I, it's kind of my base of what I've built my flying on because I was an instructor from pretty much the end of my first year.
Um, I was. Playing with gliders all the time and demonstrating to students what to do and how to control the wings. So I I've got, you know, thousands of hours of ground handling. And I think that kind of, that. Gave me the, uh, the skills to take into the air. Um, I definitely learned a lot just playing with the wing on the ground. So that's a big one, um, for, for B pilots. Um, but I think equally another. Big one is to do your own thing and try and, um, you know, try and make your own decisions, um, about everything, you know, including your gear, um, and, and where you go flying.
Um, it's very easy to get kind of sucked into what other people are doing. And at that point, you know, you're inexperienced, you're looking for some kind of guidance. Um, and it's very easy to just kind of get sucked into what everybody else is saying, or, you know, people are saying, oh, this is the best wing. And, uh, actually for you, you kind of you unique, you know, you've got your own skills and you need to be looking at what you doing and how to, how to improve your flying and not worry too much about what the other pilots are doing. And, you know, who's flying a hundred case cross country. It's like, focus down on your flying. How do you, how do you improve where you are and how do you make sure that you're on the right?
Yeah. Wing for you. Not, not just the most popular thing that's out there.
Let's talk about that in your own flying. We, we, you, we talked about before we started recording that, you know, you were a world cup pilot back in the day and, um, you know, really enjoyed flying the two liners. You mentioned the ice peak six, and, you know, we were going to talk about how to fly fast and competitions and you say, well, no, actually I'm an expert in flying slow.
Take us through that kind of a progression.
Okay. Yeah. It's, it, it's. Kind of moving to the UK from South Africa has forced me to do that. South Africa. I, I was fairly fast. I wasn't one of the fastest pilots. There's certainly, um, the guys that get the comp racing idea better than I do. Um, and I typically would do well in a couple of tasks in a comp and then one task. I just bail off the task line and I'd be going over the mountains because I saw a good line with some really good clouds. And I, you know, I'd go and set the site record. Instead of doing the task. So I was really bad at pumps. You know, I dig your style, man.
That's cool. I don't want
anything, you know, I'm a bit of a sky dog, you know, I'll go chase clouds around the sky. So, uh, I, I'm, I was getting good at doing speed sections, you know, I'm pretty good at when I, when I'm, when I want to, I can be in the bar and, you know, race along and choose good lines. Um, but for me. The, the pleasure of the flying doesn't come out of beating somebody else. Um, that's always been something that's been. Totally just never really switched my lights on, you know, just going faster than somebody else. It seemed completely arbitrary. The, the, the thing that, that gets me is the, is the sort of the, the big experience of flying.
Um, how intense can I make it? Um, which is kind of where Volbev comes in. Um, because some of them, you know, pushes you to, to extremes and you, you know, you're kind of in a survival environment and then you fly and you escape from that. And, uh, that. Contrast really gives me that intensity that I'm looking for. Um, and then, uh, you know, some days, particularly with comp tasks, you can see, you've got a task that's a hundred Ks and the last 20 cases into wind in the middle of the valley to a goal somewhere in the middle of the valley. And you land at three o 'clock and I'm just thinking to myself, man, the sky looks really great down track. Um, you know, why are we all going on bar into wind?
We know we're going to land and, and, and there's a, there's a lot more, um, you know, wonder to be had down track and under that cloud and over there and look at those cliffs over there. And I, I just get completely absorbed by the, the sort of visual beauty and the, the aesthetics of, of flying itself. So. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I said, I'm, I'm the kind of expert at flying slowly. Um, if you look at my track logs, most of them won't make any sense because I seem to be dithering around all over the place. Um, and it's usually because there's a little bit more of a wispy cloud edge that I can go and surf along the edge of, and get a really cool shot on my GoPro. Um, you know, with the sun coming through the top of the cloud and maybe some seagulls gliding along the front of the cloud.
And, and that for me, if I can. Take that, that image home with me, I feel like a winner. Um, you know, that's, uh, that's my approach. And I suppose the, the video I made recently about catching a cloud kind of sums it up. That's, that's me flying. That's, that's what I do. I, I, you know, the guys are doing 200 kilometer flight to goals on that day. Um, I only flew, if you measure it, it's probably five kilometers, you know, back from the site and back to the launch site. But I had an absolute blast, you know, I was finding something fun to do with flying. Um, that's, that's what keeps me in the sports still after all these years. Um, and there's so much to do, you know, it's, uh, I got sucked into the whole XC league, you know, kind of going for distance trap.
Um, and it's a useful progression. It's definitely worth pilots doing it. You know, you, you get us big stoke out of doing a hundred and then coming the next day and dig 150. Um, and it's, it's wonderful to do. Um, but I've been the last, you know, decade, I've been looking for other things to do with my flying and, uh, I seem to have found it with filmmaking and going for quality flights rather than, you know, looking at, at numbers and distances.
Hmm. Yeah. I had an interesting time. Talk, um, with Tom Payne, uh, about X contest. And I, I, I said, you know, what, what do you see that's, that's bad about it? And, and he said, oh, it's, it's all good, isn't it? And I, and then we got, we went exactly down that, that road that you just paved, uh, you know, cause it's, it's, it's like buying stuff. There's no end to it. There's never any real satisfaction. It's just the next, oh, now I gotta go farther and I gotta, I gotta do more. And I, I, I like your words. I like your word that it's a trap and I've, I've, I'm certainly have been in it, in it, out of it, in it. You know, it's, uh, yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I, I don't want to, I don't want to at all sound negative about it because it is, there's a lot of positive going on there. For sure. Um, and you know, there's, there's a bunch of guys now this year in the UK that are sending it for the, for the XC league points and they're doing great things. You know, I think Hugh Miller has broken seven records in the last seven flights he's flown. Wow. Um. So it's just achieving excellence in, um, visualizing a flight coming up with a plan that will work with a day and, and then pulling it off. Um, so, you know, there's a, there's a lot of good in it, but I think, um, when it gets to the point where you bummed with a flight because you didn't beat a distance, uh,
then it's going wrong for you. Then you need to re rethink what you're doing. Yeah. Um, you know, when you fly 84 Ks and you just cheesed off because you didn't make the hundred, um, you, you know, you're looking at the 14 and you're missing the 84 or the 86 that you've done. Um, and then it's gone wrong. So, and I think a lot of pilots do end up getting into that space for a while where they're like, oh, you know, it's only worth it if I'm beating my personal best or I'm getting a better score in XC league, you know, why I go flying, it's only 50 K a day. And, uh, you know, then you should just take a break for a bit, you know, until you miss flying. It'll come back. You know, that's the good thing about it. I can, I can attest that, you know, the passion comes back for sure.
Um, but it's, uh, you definitely hit those low points in a, in a flying career and when it happens, don't force it, try and work out what, what you're doing wrong is the passion is still there. It's a fantastic thing to be doing with your life.
Yeah. Um,
certainly meaningless and, and, and means everything, you know, to me, it's, uh, it's the passion that gives you the kind of fire to, to do other things and to, you know, to, to work. I work to fly really.
I think, I think it's important to the, that's a, that's a great point. And I, and I certainly have fallen into that myself and I, uh, and how I kind of got out of it was turning those 50 K flights. That, you know, that would have been just insane in your early career, just incredible. Um, but turning those into training opportunities, you know, to, to have every flight be kind of a training opportunity makes them really fun, you know, to do, okay, I'm going to dolphin around the sky or I'm going to, you know, I'm going to use my speed bar differently than I ever have, or I'm going to try to, you know, control everything with the bees or just change it up and, and turn it into some kind of a fun exercise. Then it just is a blast.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I totally agree with you. I think the, the key there is experimenting on days where, you know, they, they're marginal or they, they're not big days, um, is then to use those as experiments to try different lines or like, you know, go in different places that you never flown before, um, instead of going down your, your normal familiar track and trying to optimize it, which you're just going to get frustrated because it's not a big day. Um, you know, it's trying to see. Well, how far up when can we go today and just, you know, just pushing straight up wind from your launch side and seeing, you know, if you can make it out 10 Ks into the flats. Um, and, and, you know, that, that can be a huge challenge and very, very rewarding, very easy to get back from because you're probably going to bomb at five Ks upwind of the site.
Yeah.
But yeah, there's loads of things to do, you know, the, to, to, um, to progress your, your, your flying and, you know, as everybody says all the time, you never, you never really master flying. There's still more to learn. I mean, I'm what, 26 years down track here and I still feel like I'm a beginner in many areas that there's so much to learn. There's so much more to, to do with flying.
Yeah. Yeah. That's, I'm, I'm overwhelmed with that sometimes. Like, God, I still know, I know very little, I need to learn so much more. I mean, every time I watch what Chrigel does, I'm like, yeah, I'm a total. Yeah.
I've had that feeling too, as I watched him disappear over the horizon, but I get the feeling that, you know, even for him, he's, he's still learning things and pushing and experimenting and it's still fun, which gives me a lot of hope for, for the next 60 years of my flying career. That's hope.
I actually think I was, I was. Yeah. Yeah. Watching the X period this year. Cause we were supposed to go over to it and my, my buddy Ben had a pretty bad accident. I was going to be supporting him. And so we, we got to sit on our computers and watch it for seven days instead, which was semi torture, but it was also really fun. And I, I get the feeling that, you know, he's, he's not only winning the races by a considerable margin, but I think he's also having the most fun. And I think that that's one of the things that's, that really helps us flying. He's so relaxed. Yeah. And, and I think it's because he's done all that training. It's just, you, I mean, he's always just sitting there eating brie, talking to the camera. You know, he seems to be having a really good time.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, you see that with, uh, it's kind of common with champions. Um, you know, I've seen it with surfers as well, you know, in the past it was like Sean Thompson was a top South African surfer and he was the same kind of guy and there was John Pendry, who was a hang gliding, paragliding champ. And, you know, he, we gave him the camera. I was doing some film work in the, in the PWCs, we gave him a camera to film the task and he casually, this is way before the days of the GoPros, you know, it was a proper handy cam with a flip out screen. And he would, he produced this video later, he's casually gliding, you know, at 3000 meters, winning the task and chatting away to the camera because we'd asked him to, you know, Hey John, can you, you know, can you give us some footage?
You know? And it was just kind of something that he did while he was, while he was winning the task. So, yeah, I think it's common of, of champions, they, they have such a, um, a mastery of the, of the craft and the environment that they have a lot of free, um, attention. And I think that's what makes it hard for people that are trying to beat somebody like Chrigel. If you're trying. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because you focus so hard and you're optimizing everything and you know, you, you're worried about things that you might make mistakes on. Um, whereas the, the, the winning line is, is the one that's inspired.
That's just experimental and taking, taking risks as, as Chrigel was saying, and he's, he's, there was a brilliant podcast that he did with you, um, about, you know, trying to take more chances. Yeah. Um. Um, because somebody that takes nine, you know, 10, 10 chances and nine of them work is going to be doing much better than somebody that only takes two chances and they both work.
I think of all the things I've heard in the last couple of years, that's been the one that that's had the most impact on me was that I thought that was brilliant. You know, you got to gamble and, and, uh, because if, if more than half are working out, you you're winning. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was.
Yeah. It's a great way to fly and it's a, it's a great attitude for the hike and fly racing because I find, uh, you know, I I'm, I'm a beginner with hike and fly racing. I must be honest. You know, I've only done the X peer and, uh, done little fun ones that we have here in Wales and the born to fly and things like that, you know, and, uh, I find it a brilliant environment for, um, for mental training, for, for learning how to kind of make decisions and. How to stay positive all the time, you know, you have to be ridiculously positive for hike and fly racing because it seems like, you know, everything's against you and it's always going to be hard and then it gets harder as you progress and you, you have to have that, you know, amazing positivity and, um, creative thinking to, to pull you through it.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely going to do more of that. You know, that, that, that's where I'm. Where I'm enjoying getting a lot out of, uh, competing, um, I wouldn't really call it competing. I think I'm more of, you know, adventurer rather than a racer.
So let's do two final questions. Uh, I definitely need to ask you about baby kit. Uh, you know, what, what's in your kit and why, if anything's kind of different and then I'd love to hear some X peer stuff.
Cool. Okay. Um, okay. Bivy kit. Um, well I'm, I'm very, very, very lucky, um, working for fly bubble. I have access to everything under the sun and I can try things and look at them and poke them around and, uh, you know, and I can really choose what I want. Um, so, you know, I, I go through, I look at a lot of things that I'm always kind of tweaking my gear and trying to optimize it. Um, the rule. Oh. Oh. So everything with Bivy and hike and fly is, it must be lightweight. It, it seems like you can kind of just go out the door with your pack, but the longer the adventure, the more that weight just bears you, it grinds you down and takes the fun out of it.
So I would certainly say you, you, you wanting to go lightweight with the caveat that I said earlier about the lightweight wings being, um, more work. Um. You know, if, if you normally fly a C and you feel like you're kind of okay on it, you want a lightweight high B. Mm. Um, don't just get a lightweight of the same wing you're flying, um, and expect it to be as easy to manage. It's, it's, it's going to be a, basically a class upgrade. So, um, I've never heard
that. That's terrific. Yeah. That really makes sense. I don't know why I'd never computed that. That's, that's great advice. Yeah.
Cool. Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's not apparent on the first day, um, you know, it depends how long you're doing these things. If you're just doing the little, um, you know, speed BV weekend trips, then fine. But if you, if you want you to do a week in the Alps or, you know, we can, the Pyrenees in some way, sort of a decent adventure, then take a, take a class down. I mean, I, I did the Pyrenees, um, on a yacht, the, the original yacht, um, and that was, that was great fun. And I don't think I would have done any differently had I had a high performance wing. I would have still been flying from the same places and, you know, um, but it gave me opportunities to launch in sketchy places where on the high performance wing, I would have thought twice and probably had a walk down and, you know, gone somewhere else.
So it's definitely an advantage to have a simpler wing. That's a lightweight, um, the, the lightweight wing makes a huge difference and it's, it's, it affects your performance. It affects your pack size so much that, uh, I would say if you, if you seriously wanting to do this vulva thing, you need to get a lightweight wing, a lightweight harness. I'm using the super strike. Um, I've tried out a lot of the harnesses recently. Um, I had a Skywalk X-Alps for the racing. I think there's nothing lighter that's certified for racing in the Skywalk X-Alps too, but I found the, the strike more. Um, comfortable for general flying. I mean, I use the same harness for, for my general flying, um, that I do for bivvy.
Um, and that's probably something that I do that may be different to other pilots is that I, I fly my bivvy kit pretty much all the time, except for, you know, the food and the cooking and that sort of gear. But the gear that I fly with is the gear that I take on a bivvy. Um, so I have time to. To develop it, to make sure that all the bits and pieces work together and I'm not stuck on a bivvy with incompatible gear or stuff that frustrates me. It's a, it's well worn equipment. So you know, I've got the super strike and I use that for all of my review flying, all of my general flying and my bivvy as well.
So you're using that for you. I mean, it does have quite a bit of space when you take the pad out, but so you're using that for bivvy as well. You're, you're getting your poles in there and your tent and there are whatever bivvy, sack, whatever you're using and a sleeping bag and everything. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. Tent and everything. I mean, it's got quite a lot of space. Yeah. If you take the, you take the pad out, um, that's a common move for, for bivvy pilots. I think is, is you take out the squishy foam, um, as long as you're replacing that squishy foam with your, um, your, your, your camping mat, you're going to need some sort of camping mat for sure. Um, the, the simplest and most reliable is just the, the, the cheap, uh, foam mattress that you get at the camping store. Um, they're, they're lightest probably, and they don't puncture. So they're very good for putting under your tent, um, under your wing and just having in the back of your harness and that's pretty reliable protection. So that's a really cheap, um, basic piece of bivvy kit that you can pick up at the camping store.
Mm. Mm. Um, so I usually use that. I have recently, I am, I've got a wonderful prize at the. At the dragon hike and fly race of, uh, um, one of these ultra lights, um, blow up near a, um, uh, you know, mattresses, camping, camping mattress things. So I've, I've got, I'll be putting that in my harness now. Um, that's like a 200 gram, um, mattress, but that's, that's definitely, I would say that's necessary is to have some kind of firm match. Um, and you just take out your, your, your normal back foam and put that in. And then pack in whatever, if you've got a sleeping bag or you've got a tent or you've got any soft clothes, you stick that in inside that mat and you've, you've got pretty close to your certified back protection.
It's going to work almost as well. It's good enough. You know, it's good enough for me. Um, and then, yeah, I mean the, the strike has got enough space. I've been surprised. I thought it was a bit small, but, um, when you do that and you've got all of your sleeping gear in the, in the foam bottom, then you've got your bag and your food and stuff in the back, uh, poles on the side, they've got some straps there. Um, and, and that's it. And it's kind of, it also limits the amount of gear that I take with me because it's very easy to take too much stuff on a baby and then you don't actually need that much gear. Um, for, for most of the baby flying, I mean, I'm, I'm my, my building is probably what you consider the V light. Um, you know, I definitely not, I'm not going across Alaska.
I mean, that's a whole different level. So, um, what I'm talking about is a kind of pilots fun flying BV, um, where, you know, you go to the Alps and, or you go to the Pyrenees and, and you're in an environment, you don't need specialist gear for the mountaineering. Um, you just need somewhere to sleep at night and you can take some food with you. Um, uh, that's, that's the style of BV that I already enjoy where it's, it's more about the freedom of being out there and just experiencing the wilderness. Um, not so much about the sort of conquering the, the extremes. Hmm.
Hmm. And what about, uh, instruments?
Uh, very lightweight, uh, Sarad CisNav. It's a little lightweight, um, Varia GPS, and it's got very basic mapping on it. Um, enough that it will give you terrain. If you happen to be flying. Yeah. Uh, near mountains with clouds, you've got the kind of block shape of the mountain, so you know where to avoid it. Um, and it's just very light and lasts forever. And I find as long as you, as long as I've got a little beep and, uh, an average on my Varia, um, I'm good to go. I don't need, um, complex stuff. So you're not, you're
not bringing a phone.
I am bringing a phone. My phone is my airspace. Um, check if I'm flying in areas that have airspace. Um, then I will just pull it out and I'll quickly refer to the airspace when I'm near it. The, the side ride does warn me of the airspace and tells me how far I am vertically and horizontally. So I don't need to have that airspace screen on for very long. Um, and that saves me having to do power management. I'm, I'm just quickly looking at it and see, oh, okay, I'm coming up to that airspace. And then I flipped back to the side ride and I can see what that thing is and, you know, then avoid it. So
you're not going phone with like a Bluetooth Vario, uh, because of the power management and you got to carry a battery and solar and all that.
Yeah. I mean, I do carry a battery, um, because I'm, I'm typically wanting to do some kind of, uh, social media updating, or I'm wanting to video and use the phone as a backup, um, to, to record. And then I'm also wanting to do, um, where the forecasts is a big one. Okay. So when you, when you go moving, if you lucky enough to get some sort of reception, it's, it's really useful to have some idea of what's coming. Um, so that's my comms, you know, base and I, and I need a battery for that, but I prefer not to use it when I'm flying because it definitely drains power and then you've got to manage that problem. Sure.
Sure. Uh, Greg, I've got the guys showing up on the house. So listeners, I apologize. There's going to be some banging in the background. But I, I cannot help you. I cannot let you go until, uh, we, we, we hear a little, little expert stuff that got that such cool terrain. I have to say before you even start that, you know, it was, it was one thing kind of prepping for all those months and really looking at the terrain and way points and trying to figure out, you know, kind of the most efficient way through, which is basically look at Kregel's IGC files from past events and plug them in and say, Ben, go that way. But, uh, you know, it was, it was a completely different thing to see that to then watch the race. And watch, see how it's all cross grain, you know, in the X ops, we land and we get to walk on a road generally in the kind of the right direction.
And you guys just, the roads never go the right direction. It just looked at, and the terrain was impressively awesome. I underappreciate it until I started watching like Stanislaus videos and stuff and just, wow, it's beautiful.
Yeah, no, it is. What a beautiful place to go. And, and. And for, um, vol biv as well, the hiking trail, the GR 11, I think it is, it runs along the spine of the Pyrenees is just fantastic. I mean, there's nobody on it, you know, you'll be, maybe he'd see one or two hikers a day and it's, it's marked out as a trail and it's just, you can, you could camp anywhere along the side of the trail, beautiful, you know, grassy slopes and, and such lovely, lovely countryside and such lovely people there, you know, the, the people that I met were super friendly. Yeah. Um, so, uh, you know, I, I would love to live in the Pyrenees, but I haven't been able to engineer it yet.
I need to make my million and then, uh, you know, get a chalet somewhere on the, probably on the French side and being a little bit cooler and, and fly around the Pyrenees. That, that would be heaven for me. It's a, it's a wonderful place.
What are the, what is kind of the, you know, the takeaways or, you know, what the, you know, the joys and the disappointments. You know, if you could just kind of summarize, well,
um, the ex peer, um, I, I did a bivvy before just to kind of explore the area. And that was a highlight for me. That was just fantastic. You know, to be out on my own, um, in the Pyrenees, um, just exploring that, that's, that was probably a lot more fun, um, than the race. The race is, is grueling and it's an, it's an athletic, uh, endeavor, you know, it's, it's not quite, it's not quite as much of a, uh, a spiritual flying experience as I was expecting. Um, you know, I was going for that sort of, um, peak experience of, I thought, well, you know, I'm going to be exhausted and I'm going to have this kind of elevated consciousness of, you know, flying through the Pyrenees and, and just finding lines and, and what it was, was getting my, my face slapped with, uh, with Fernwind.
And, uh. You know, big, bigger sense with a heavy pack, um, it was a lot more grueling, um, than I was hoping. Um, I, I wouldn't say I hadn't expected it, um, but I'd expected to pull off quite a few magic flying moves. And for the edition that I was participating in, um, it just didn't happen. The flying conditions at the back were terrible.
Um. So. Yeah,
it's funny that, um, and my big, um, underestimation was how athletic the top guys are. Um, I, I mean, I knew, and I've been watching XLs for years and, you know, I know you sort of have a quiet chuckle at the, at the newbies that do it and then, oh, look, you know, they, they're just not coping. The guys are running away from them, they're, you know, they're not prepared. Um, but I wasn't prepared. Um, you know, I'd done. Right. I was running with my bag in the flat. Um, you know, every morning I'd sort of done 10 Ks with my, my X peer gear. Um, and I'd been training in England. So it was generally about 10 degrees in the morning and, um, the biggest hill I've got, you know, that I can jog to is about a 40 meter height difference.
So
You're a little constrained by your environment.
Yeah. So, uh, you know, and then I, I decided to drive down because I was going to use my car as the, as a sport vehicle. Um, so I had a long drive down, which isn't very good physically just sitting in the car. Um, and then all the race sort of briefing and then it was straight into the race. So I, you know, if I'm going to do it again, which I'm wanting to do in 2020, I'm going to do some brutal physical training. It's, it's the race, the particular way that the course works, um, if they would start us on the top of the flying site, then it would be a different deal, but because you've got a 20 kilometer sprint on the road and then, uh, sort of thousand meters sent to the launch.
Um, it really makes a difference when you are, when you can physically cope with that, running that with a, with a paraglide on your back in 30, in 30 degrees heat. And, uh, I thought I'd be okay, you know, just being able to walk fast and I'd catch up with the flying and it never happened. I just, I got eaten on the first ascent and overheated. And that was pretty much my race down the rest of the time I was clawing back, um, distance on the ground and clawing back little, you know, short flights. It was really difficult.
So, I'm going to have to do my best, you know, to actually get through the end of the race. I don't, I don't wanna go into the end of the race. I'm
building myself up. So no, it's not a, yeah,
that's a very
difficult, um,
it's a difficult
thing. I was, I was a
little, little bit, uh, reluctant to do it, uh, because had been hitting these big, big arms over over, over, over, over, over, over, you know, as of last season. I was a little, little, little bit, uh, like, I was feeling like a little bit tasted I felt like, you know, in the air I could do things, but the conditions that we were faced with were just conditions that I would never normally fly in to start off with. And then you're just choosing how much of those sort of conditions are you prepared to accept, which, yeah, there was just the run of the game that year. And unfortunately for this edition, I was pretty sure that I wasn't going to have the time. So I didn't put in the training and didn't prep and didn't put any kind of plans in place to have a supporter.
And then probably a month before the race, I could see that I actually had the time available. So I was kicking myself, but I had fun supporting Wes Merch and Ali Andrews, just kind of, you know, giving them ideas of the weather coming up and telling them what was coming and, you know, suggesting flying sites and routes. So I was, I was involved from behind the PC, but yeah, I missed it terribly. I would have loved to have been there.
Well, hope to see in 2020, I'm still holding out. Hope that Ben will, you know, come back from this. He's doing great, you know, and, and he's going to have a tough year, but he'll, he'll be supporting me in the, in the X-Alps this year. And, you know, by then he'll be fit as a fiddle and I'm hoping we could, we can tune him up and, and do the X-Pyr. Not actually, actually after watching the race this time, I thought, gosh, I should be doing this. It's just a brilliant place. It's a, I, I love where these races get you. That, that's what I really consistently love about the X-Alps is that, you know, there's so many times that you're in the Alps, you're in this place that gets flown by everyone and you can pretty much guarantee no one's ever launched from this spot. You know, you just, you get to the coolest places and it's not just the flying, just the little villages and little towns.
I, I got, I got hit by a nasty OD in this last race and just trying to find a takeoff from, I I'd blown the earlier flight and outside of Laramoose and, and we knew the day was going to go OD and, and, and pin us. And by the time I got up to this little hut, couldn't find a launch running around and then it was hailing and storming and just not flyable and completely drenched and ran back to this hut. And of course didn't have any, my cash on me. And, but they just put me up and we had such a brilliant evening and, you know, a nice good sleep and a bed. And it was, you know, you just, you find yourself in the most fascinating places.
Yeah. It's pretty special. Absolutely. I, I, I love that, but I think you also get that with Volbov, you know, just going out and having an adventure. You, you kind of get those, those brilliant adventure experiences. You don't have to be in the race. The, the, the race for me is a, you know, it's something that you, you prepare for to, to be able to enjoy. And, and if you're not prepared, it can be, it can be kind of, it can be grueling. It's, it's, it's a very tough physical thing to do. And, you know, I, I, I thought I was prepared, but seeing the other guys, I don't think a lot of people realize just how strong the top guys are. You know, the, the front five, the guys don't show it.
They'll never, you know, bitch about how tough it is. They just quietly get on with what they're doing. Hmm. But you know, it, if for, for, for an office worker, um, with a, you know, weekend flyer, it's a, it's a big deal to get ready for that sort of thing. So, um, it's, it's quite a commitment and particularly the X-Alps. It's what, it's, what's kept me away from the X-Alps and, and wanted you to do that. I mean, I love the race, but I can just see the amount of commitment in time and energy and training.
It's just
huge. It's huge. So I'm, I'm quite, quite happy to applaud you and the other guys when you're doing it and, and, you know, get into watching the live tracking, but Hey, you know, it's a, I can't invest that much time in a race. Whereas the X-Pierre is kind of, I prefer it's kind of a week. And that's about as much as I can, I can commit to doing in an event. I think, I think it's enough. And I feel the X-Alps is going the wrong way in that every edition, they're trying to make it more hardcore. Yeah. So it's the, you know, the biggest hot, toughest adventure race in the world. And we already know it is, you know, it's, it could, it could be 500 Ks and, and it would be just as interesting to watch and you'd have just as many people.
And I think the audience is getting exhausted by the end of the X-Alps. As are the athletes. Another day of live tracking.
That's so true. That's so true. And, and the video is always just, we're basically one person anyway. It's like, come on, show everybody we're all struggling, but yeah, it's, it is, it is fascinating. It is an unacceptable amount of risk. That's, that's the thing that at the end of every race, I'm always like, man, I mean, Alaska in, in, like you said, that the, the, the pure bliss is, is much more on a bivy. I mean, the, the bliss of Alaska and it, and it wasn't, you know, there were, there were a couple of flights. Okay. That were not recreational flights, but you know, you're, you're, you're choosing it. And, and in the race, you can't, I mean, if you want to be even remotely competitive, you can't choose it. You got to fly in, in terrible stuff sometimes.
And, and it's, you know, you get tuned up and you train and, you know, and there's never been a time where I've just been like, okay, though, there was a time in the 2015 race where I put myself in a place and didn't realize it until too late. That was really proper terrifying. And, and it was interesting in, in Monaco, having the talk with everybody that had gotten there. Cause I was at eighth that year, you know, and Ferdinand and Paul and Aaron and all these guys, we were all just had stories that were, you know, one topping the next. And it was like, what are we doing here? You know, and then you go to sleep and you wake up the next day and you're like, ah, I can't wait to do that again. It's the weirdest thing. It's just, it's just totally bizarre, but it is. I mean, I think really other than Chrigel, it really isn't. I don't, I don't, I think he can.
He can
handle it. You know, I don't think that he's actually putting himself in too many places that are really terrifically dangerous for him, but it is, it is unacceptable. And like you said, it's, you know, that it's getting longer and harder. It's just, it's almost a little bit ridiculous, but God, I still love it.
Yeah. I would love to see an event that's, that's more accessible, um, that, that stops the clock at six in the evening and starts it at six in the morning. Um, so it becomes less about marathon hiking and more about, you're going to fly from where you've landed. You know, you're going to walk up the nearest mountain and fly from that. Um, so, you know, as soon as you make that stop time, everybody stops walking. It's the, the experience, the X helps, you know, you often racing on the road against other guys, just because if you stop, they'll pass you. So everybody just keeps moving, but nothing's actually happening in the race. It's, it's actually not that exciting to watch because it's just a, it's a movement of pins, you know, and I feel that that could be trimmed somewhat.
Um, and it would make the race more about the flying and less about the, the, the grueling ground, ground, ground, you know, ground grunt. Um, um, and then maybe it would be more appealing to more people. So, um, that's something I'm hoping will evolve in the next couple of years. Cause a lot, I think a lot of people are getting into. The idea of how I can fly. Oh
man, these races are popping up just, you know, one after another. There's the iron fly and the Iger tour and the border race. It's really cool. Yeah. Something, somebody will hit the pin on the head and just nail it. And it's, but it's in the meantime, it's, it's pretty fun. Um, Greg, fascinating. You're a really fun to, to speak with about all this stuff, this crazy, absurd thing that we love so much. Um, but thank you so much. I wish you the best of luck with, with fly bubble. And flying around slowly in the UK and having fun and, uh, and, uh, hope to see at the X peer. That would be a blast. I've really got my fingers crossed that that works out for us too. So, um, but thank you. Thank you for your time. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge. I appreciate it.
That's a pleasure, Gavin. And likewise, it's really great to, to see you producing stuff. Um, you know, there's, there's not enough paragliding content out there, um, because we're such a niche sport. So it's, it's brilliant that you're bringing, you know, these podcasts. To people and your film work. It's really great. It's very inspiring. So keep doing what you're doing. It's, um, I'll, I'll certainly be watching from my side. It's, uh, it's great to have you in the sport and, and thanks for the interview. I really appreciate it. It's been fun.
Awesome. Talk to you soon. Thanks, Greg. All right. Cheers.
I hope you enjoyed that. And that was a really fun talk. I kind of hated cutting that one, uh, shutting that one down because the, uh, the, I've got some, we're redoing the siding on the side of the house and, uh, started getting a little bangy. So I had to. Stop that talk, but I think we'll have to do a round two or even around three with Greg. That was a lot of fun. And I learned a lot. I hope you did as well. If you're just, uh, finding the mayhem, please go back and enjoy the hours and hours and hours of, uh, terrific talks with so many. We've had so many just incredible guests that cover, you know, pretty much all the topics that are involved with flying, but we're always going to keep expanding that. And, uh, as I said, in the top of the show, your support is super valuable. It's what makes this possible. If you can support, support. Show financially, uh, you'll find the links to do that on the cloud base, mayhem.com, the website, and, uh, you'll find links to pay, uh, PayPal and Patrion.
PayPal is kind of a one-off thing. And, uh, Patrion is you only pay when content comes out and you can choose the level you want to support the show and you just get dinged when content comes out and you can be rewarded for doing so with swag, uh, hats and t-shirts and books and other stuff, uh, at certain levels. So, and you can also support the show with our new store. If you go to cloudbase, ma 'am.com. And go to the store link, you'll see our Patagonia t-shirts with the logo on them. These are all fair trade and organic and classic, great quality Patagonia stuff. And then recaps by Annika Herden, a fellow pilot who makes these killer trucker hats that are a big hit. Each one of those is totally unique. And that also has our, uh, logo on them. So you can wear the stuff and show everybody that you're supporting the show and that goes a long ways as well.
But for now, uh, enjoy the sky. See you at cloud base and I'll see you on the next show. Cheers. Cheers.