Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Base Mayhem. Last week, I was out at the rat race in Oregon and got to witness something pretty special. A good friend of mine, Nick Greece, who we've had on the show before, just dominated. We had seven out of seven days, a bunch of really good tasks, some of them pretty tough, not what I would call classic conditions. We're dealing with quite a bit of wind and stuff, so it was certainly a challenge, but also a ton of fun. And it's hard to stay on top for seven days, but that's what Nick did, and he won with grace and style. And so I invited Nick to come back onto the show because he literally went from zero to hero here. In the PWC down in Brazil a month ago, he got dead last, which is pretty hard to do, but he did.
He got dead last after the Pan Ams down there, which he was also dominating early and then had a couple bad days and fell off there. And so we talk about headspace. We talk about some of the—he saw a really terrifically bad accident flying in Kenya with Cedar Wright back in January, February, I believe. And so he was dealing with some PTSD that I think many of us have dealt with in our sport, unfortunately. So, yeah, we talk about headspace and psychology and strategy and discipline. And this was basically, you know, as we kind of get into the comp scene in the Northern Hemisphere summer, I thought it would be a really timely thing. I thought it would be a really timely time to talk to Nick about comps. He's been doing it almost 20 years. He got into it in a very special, funny, unique way, which we covered a little bit on the first show with him that couple years ago, but we get into it again on this one.
And, yeah, I just think you're really going to enjoy this. Also, a little bit of housekeeping before we get into the show. USHPA and I and Nick, we've all been working on this insurance thing, and Nick talks about it a little bit at the end of the show. But we've come up with what we think is kind of the best solution through Global Rescue. And IMG, that doesn't have any exclusions for our sport, we're still working with them on competitions and some other stuff. So we'll get back to you on that. But if you are traveling and you'll be more than 100 miles from home, these are great solutions. You can find out more on my website, cloudbasemaham.com. Just do a search for insurance. You can see that there are links to it, but there will soon be links through USHPA, if you're an USHPA member, that will get you a discount and some other good stuff.
So really psyched on that. We've been working on that for months and months and months, and it's nice to have kind of a one-stop solution that is available now and will soon, we hope, also have competitions covered. So exciting news there. What else? A good friend of mine, Evan Bouchier, has a couple of friends who broke away from Black Diamond a little bit ago, and they're making these really cool gloves. He was selling them at Rat Race. They're direct, you know, so they're kind of cut out the middleman. So they're super reasonable and really worth it. They're really well made. They're called Truck Gloves. You can find them on truckgloves.com. And they're offering a 10 % discount to our listeners right now. And they've got mitts. They've got every kind of range. And they're actually going to be coming out with a paragliding-specific glove, but I used them at the race.
They're awesome. I wouldn't call them, you know, a full winter glove or spring glove. You know, they're more, you know, for racing or for when it's not super, super cold, but, you know, really well put together, great feel, really comfortable. And you can just order them direct. And if you go to their website, truckgloves.com right now, and put in the discount code cloudbasemayhem, two separate words, then you'll get 10 % off. Again, that code is cloudbasemayhem. And the website is truckgloves.com. One other bit of housekeeping, cloudbasemayhem.com. If you go to that website, you can see our store. I've got some killer new women's shirts, a new color from Patagonia. These are all organic, fair trade, you know, classic Patagonia. Plenty of stuff. Lasts forever. It's got our cloud-based mayhem logo and stuff on the back.
And then our great hats by Annika Hurton, her recaps, which were a big hit out at the rat race. These are the coolest trucker hats ever. So really psyched to be sporting those and a great way for you to support the show. And let's get into it. Without further delay, please enjoy this very cool talk with my good friend, Nick Greece.
Nick, awesome to have you back on the show. It was so fun racing around the skies with you. Last week at the rat race, seven out of seven days. That was pretty incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time out. I understand you're on a little road trip or traveling right now, but sounds pretty good in your car. And just psyched to sit down and talk to you about going from zero to hero. You've had quite a run in the competition scene lately down in the PWC and now just scoring at the rat race. So congratulations, and I can't wait to talk about it.
Yeah, it's been a journey. I think a full spectrum result.
Yeah, I'll say so. Before we get into these last couple comps, because I want to talk kind of big picture comps and psychology and all the stuff. And you've also been through some kind of hairy stuff this year. But before that, we talked about this a little bit in the first podcast, and people can listen to that to get a refresher. But take me back, I think, almost 20 years now to your kind of first comp. How did you get into comps? Because it's quite a funny story. And then we can fast forward to the rat race.
Yeah, so I
started flying in 2001 and quickly became obsessed, just full obsession. That's people kind of sometimes, oh, well, you seem to be decent at this sport. How did you get so good? And I think Gladwell's 10,000-hour rule kicks in with a lot of us. And I know, Gavin, you're similar. I've witnessed your obsession. And now we have some other people that call it Skycracker, which is probably fitting.
After getting into it and flying a bunch, I realized, wow, these competitions seem like the best money I can spend to get any kind of help or mentoring I could find. 20 years ago, it was really hard to find mentors. I don't know if it's because they were few and far between or people were reticent to share or what. But I just remember having a hell of a time finding a mentor or anybody that would tell me anything. And so competition seemed like the way forward. So I actually ended up traveling for a year with my paraglider at some point. I decided that because of watching Felix Volk in cross country jump off a dam in his hang glider and then Bob Drury's article in cross country about this ridge, Zagora, in Morocco that I actually was just playing marbles, which I thought I was being really cool and flying paragliders.
But actually, I was just playing marbles and that I needed to go get some. So I sold all my possessions and traveled for a year flying. And during that time, I ended up stumbling kind of onto a World Cup in Aftonau, Austria. And these are the best and the brightest of paragliding, Bruce Goldsmith and Norman Losh and a bunch of big stars. But I didn't have any money. So I decided instead of entering, which I couldn't anyway. But I did. I just would sneak into the meals, first of all, to get food. And then I would sneak up to kind of ask, oh, what turn point are you going to, you know, what are your turn points today? And someone would tell me and then I'd hike up to one and just punch into it, into the race as soon as I would see the field coming.
And so that was kind of the first comp, I guess, that I didn't enter but was at. Eventually, I got caught by the organization because you needed to go up a lift one day because they weren't taking buses. I was sneaking on the buses, too, to get to a launch sometimes. And then, you know, they're like, oh, well, today, you know, you have to take a lift. So we have to pay for a lift. So every name has to be checked off. So I went and I figured out who wasn't at the race but was signed up. And the only person I could find was Jin, the famous Jin Song. And so I was like, oh, you know, let's try it. So, you know, they got up to the gate to go into the lift, like name. And I'm like, Jin Seok Song.
And they just looked at me like I was, you know, a crazy person. I thought it was worth a go, you know. I guess I didn't quite realize how famous he was at that time. I was still relatively new to paragliding. And that I don't look Asian, in fact. So that also, I think, played into it.
Not even a little bit. But anyway,
they allowed me to be a wind dummy. They're like, no, you can come because you're crazy, but we need a wind dummy. So anyway, I did that. So that was kind of how it started. And actually, there's a guy, Urs Schoenauer. I remember the World Cup then was kind of a hippie scene. It was different than now. It was much more, I think, continental. And people would just follow the whole thing. You know, Martin Orlick and Urs Schoenauer, Andy Berenstiel, these names, you know, would follow the whole thing in their vans all summer. And it was just, you know, it was kind of more of a tour that people could just drive to. So Urs Schoenauer was... I remember to this day was, you know, he was amazed at what I was doing. He's like, one day you should do the World Cups, you know. So he's actually coming in in a week, and I'm going to show him around the U.S.
And then we're going to go to Chelan. So it would be cool to, you know, see him again.
The magic to me of something like the rat race is it's kind of solved this mentoring problem. You know, you've got the sprint and the clinic and then the race. And, you know, every day at this race last week, you got, you know, some of the pilots together and gave these amazing talks. With all kinds of advice, you know. So it's, you know, kind of solving that problem to an extent of the mentoring thing. But what would you say to the listeners of the show that are maybe thinking about doing their first comp or maybe nervous about comps? Have you learned over all these years, are comps good for flying? Are they a good strategy? Are they a good thing to get into? Any warnings maybe?
Yeah, look, you know, I have mixed feelings about competitions for sure. I think comps are... Fantastic learning opportunities. I think, you know, when I first... By the time I was doing comps, I could, you know, do helicopters. I could stall my glider. I could, you know, I was flying 30 to 50-mile cross country flights. So I think that getting into competition flying at the right time is very important. I think not, you know, not... And it depends on the competition. There's great, you know, the Chabra Open or Ozone puts on some, you know, entry-level competitions. The rat race has a sprint. There's entry-level competitions. Those would be great earlier. But full-on competition, I think you should be very comfortable, you know, flying, launching, and landing anywhere.
Because, you know, as we say, it's a cross country competition. So you're still... The first thing we're doing is flying cross country. And the cross country, the skills to me are launch..
. To
be able to launch safely in any condition and be able to land safely in very, you know, in almost any landing field. And so because, right, those are the two times that it actually matters..
. In
terms of, you know, how close to Earth you are. So as long as you can do those things, I think competitions are fantastic places to learn. And again, you know, at competitions, I always remind people to, you know, be hard on yourself. There's nothing wrong with being hard on yourself. But don't beat yourself up. And that means there's plenty of lessons to be learned. Take the lessons as they come. You know, process them. Talk with more experienced pilots. And then once you process the information, you let it go. And that's where you don't beat yourself up. And so I think that's, you know, the best way. But, you know, for $500... Well, in the U.S., they're a lot. But $500 a week, you get a full cross country clinic. You know, and, you know, when you land, you know, look at your track. Look how you did. If you have questions during it, find someone who did it successfully.
Process it with them. You know, don't just, you know, go, oh, that was cool, and go grab a beer. And then, you know, on to the social part of our sport. You know, utilize it for what it is, you know, is this learning opportunity. Because there will be plenty of time for the social... Yeah. But, you know, I did find it interesting, even at the rat race. We do lectures every day on launch. You know, and I try to challenge people that we're not just going to, you know, regurgitate to you the platitudes and bumper stickers, like, you know, you can't win a comp on the first day, but you can lose it. We're going to try to, you know, or, you know, when in doubt, whip it out, whatever. You're... We're trying to ask people questions from the days they had, and by the last day, no one had a single question. You know? Yeah. of interesting you know we're like really okay you guys are all because i don't see many of you in goal you know um but but but they you know it's kind of funny it's so maybe people were maxed out i mean seven days is a long time and they were they were non-traditional uh conditions they weren't classically good conditions um and so uh maybe everybody was tired and you know and all that but i i think what happens is that we have a tremendous mixture of a sport and aviation
and i think a lot of times the sport social part takes over where aviation should be in the sense that you know like in this case people should if i were somebody in that position and when you look when i look back on my earlier times in my progression i have my log books and every after every flight as soon as i would land i would fill in all the things i did well and all the things i did poorly um and therefore if i went to launch and somebody a panel of people like
you know um jared anderson were there i would have my list written down oh i have a question you know and so i did find it interesting that you know like i said by the end and i think it's because uh sometimes the sport takes over um and whereas people in my opinion should be focusing more on aviation what
about the like the let's let's talk a little bit about fast forward to your last couple months um you know you went down to the pan ams you crushed the first couple days
uh and and then immediately went to the PWC and and i'm not making fun of you but that you got dead last that was pretty epic uh that that's hard to do and uh it's really hard to do that's really hard to do so i and then and then you came back to the rad race and just dominated and so i mean take me through that whole you know the we always talk about this you know the paragliding has the ups and downs just like we climb and we sink in a paraglider it's the same in your head um and and i know that you're intimate with the paraglider and i know that you're intimate with the paraglider those kind of things what what are you you know take me through that whole how did you come back from that and what happened and what and how did you get lost
yeah yeah i mean this is yeah it's it's an interesting tale i mean i look paragliding is you know i call her the most you know um manic temptress ever um in the sense that you know the highs are incredibly high and the lows are often very low you know austin all the ultimate low uh for some uh so i basically for me it's you know it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's you know um we ebb and flow and i i've had just health issues actually over the past three years um in terms of my body falling apart you know i call it running out of talent but um you know basically my back went out uh at the colombian world championships and i had a back surgery i came back from that and then crashed uh you know basically fell over running which is pretty funny and tore and and hurt my shoulder uh and so that's the anyway so low level you know body stuff but then uh you know basically in and when did we go in december i went to kenya there was a fatality there that you know of a um a tandem fatality and so um we were dealing you know we had to deal with the body recoveries uh and and you know it's ultimately you know like i said it was just a horrible tragic you know experience and and part of paragliding that's always been you know i've i've always dealt with rescues or had to deal but i've i've luckily in 20 years this is the first full body recovery that that i've had to help perform um so you know basically we came back from that and and i had ptsd i'm sure everybody who dealt with it you know and obviously the ultimate sacrifice was by the pilots i'm not you know and that and that's part of ptsd though um is that you know the whole time like well but i'm alive and and it's and so why i shouldn't i have no business complaining about anything and so i think in paragliding i think that's something that all of us deal with um to some extent uh unfortunately uh over and over and i think you know i luckily i was able to talk to some people that gave me some really good advice uh about that you know and like i said i i still the the the ultimate sorrow is is for the pilot and the passenger and and and i still uh think about them and and and hope you know i never see that again but but you know for
and and dealing with it um you know it took me a few months to even you know talk about it and then uh you know once we started talking about it i was told given some important information to find other people who've experienced this and talk with them about it and talk candidly and and and don't be afraid to talk about it and so for me that was that was a huge thing that i needed to in order for me to you know and it wasn't that uh you know flying is in the in proportion to to life is obviously not not bad for me and i think that's a big part of it and i think that's very high on that that that scale but in terms of me getting back in the sky i was flying and i was flying fine i was flying about you know the same but i was i had my head in the sand so i was flying with kind of part with with part that part cordoned off and and pretty much just you know moving forward just with the mechanical parts of it but not really you know kind of not really enjoying it uh tremendously was
it something like you felt like you you you just needed to go do because you're a pilot and you weren't then you're then you'd flying and be like what the hell am i doing why am i doing this or can you describe that more
yeah yeah it's tough um yeah i mean it's for me i when things like that happen like the next day i put my head in the sand i flew 230 kilometer triangle or something it flying can help me escape that but ultimately those things start to build up inside and and in terms of performance i think it was really that was the first step of of me shutting down and really needing to kind of reprocess all these things and and and and and and and and and and and and and and things and and uh you
know i i've i've gone through these these times where you know i feel like oh the weather the forecast is good i should go fly because i'm a pilot and i should be training and i should be practicing and then i go fly and i'm like what am i doing you know i'm just i'm not even i'm not enjoying it i'm scared or you know i yeah you know we we go through these ebbs and flows like you've talked about but is that is that is that tied into the psd that you had or were you kind of was that am i reading it right is that what you were kind of doing or was it more
just ignoring the pd ptsd like the next day you just ignored it head in the sand just went
flying yeah and the sand but no i mean gavin that's an incredibly astute point and that that all plays into this because it's basically about it's about you know that happens to me yes that that not from this particular occurrence but i that has happened to me over the last 20 years especially people like you myself like we've now on my career is paragliding yeah um and you know sometimes i you know i called bill belcourt after the third thing which i'll you know that in this list of this year of horrible things to happen around me uh and and kind of you know saying like i don't know if i can continue i don't know why i do this i don't know if i can continue to do this uh you know um i love flying but i i love my family i love life i love mountain you know i love being on this planet and and i think a lot of us deal with that or or don't you know which is the head in the sand technique um but i think that we all you know a lot of us who are who have been in the sand technique have been in the sand technique for quite a while um now and and you know it starts to add up uh in terms of wow this is you know there there is we know it's risky we're not you know we're not deluded we know um that it can be dangerous um and and it always has been worth it to me the amount of joy the highs you know we're worth the lows but at some point you know when things keep piling up on us and i and i've seen this with a lot of our friends over the years that we start to really try to see like the balances don't seem like they're you know tipped you know like they're like they're like they're low seem to you know are outweighing the highs it gets more
difficult to rationalize doesn't it
yeah and i mean you just had a kid i mean i i imagine that you know that it would be a factor to me as well you know whereas when i was a single guy uh in jackson there was times before spots and and delormes i could care less i was like i'm fine i was missing for two days once um and i would fly over the absarokas with no tracking you know and i was thinking wow the search pattern is going to be like four thousand square miles you know i'm missing um and you know there's no we had no delormes no spots and and i could care less but you know as i've aged right i mean uh a i didn't think i would live this long otherwise i probably would have done more yoga uh and be uh you know uh we just get a little smarter right like that is where and more wise and so it gets harder when these you know incidents are up front personal um to rationalize why we're doing it and and obviously to perform well in any you know to take it to performance where which is i know it's a stretch and a weird you know connection but you need to be centered and so that was you know this is like you know kind of the first block in the in the uncentering for me
before we before we go from there can you tell me about the advice you said you got some really good advice and maybe just you know tell us also what is ptsd in this situation like describe
yeah post-traumatic post-traumatic stress disorder so for you know and and you can everybody should look this up um and you know obviously we come from america uh gavin and i and so because we're such a worry population we this is a common phrase in our culture um because we have our all our poor soldiers returning a lot of them have ptsd and basically it's uh you know the the advice i got like i said was to talk to go find you know find other people who have been in the same similar situation and talk about all the details all the things that are tripping you up you know to to to to just talk constantly about it with them and to and also to acknowledge it and to accept it and give it space in your in your life so that you can then you know try to climb over it and you will always live with these experiences uh and and that's just the way it is um but you can you know climb over that and and move forward and and come to some peace and understanding about it i think i can within within myself with the context but you know it's it's almost like um
i see it almost like cancer uh in the sense that these things will always be a part of you and there there could be a recurrence at any time you know when you see something else that will trigger this so it's also acknowledging that like i said just being open to it and understanding and and uh and and dealing with it and not just putting your head in the sand and so that's those are those that's my advice but you know that's from an amateur uh you know no
but i like that i mean and then were you was your head still in the sand when you went to brazil or were you more kind of had you had the talks with belcourt and well
no no so there i was still this is before i needed uh old yoda um but uh so yeah this i you know i was kind of back to you know i've been dealt with it i processed it um you know my my my close people had to kind of help me take the brunt of it uh and then um and then we're you know on to brazil and i was feeling good and happy i was with my friends in the first few days uh you went went well i got second and then you know someone someone died you know uh during the comp um a brazilian pilot and so again you start to and i didn't see it i wasn't a part of it um i was well past there i didn't even know what happened when i you know i came into land but again you like i said that balance those scales right we start to eye them up again and then evaluating what are we doing you know why are we doing this um and then i you know i i had another good day but i could definitely that was a good day and then i was like oh my god i'm going to do this another that was kind of a chink in the armor you know and then i just kind of had a couple bad days but i did have one of the most adventurous days uh while i was there which included a four hour hike where i went a mile and a half um you know yeah and i was hiking the entire time so yeah like belly i lost a lot of my dignity in in brazil uh that trip um including belly crawling for an hour you know over reeds uh you know pulling my glider behind me because otherwise it would sink me up to my chest in water
you're just in a massive swamp
or reed swamp or something yeah
yeah yeah i was like i hope there's not snakes um i'm like i'm gonna die if i get bit by something poisonous there's no one down but i won't be able to get out of here but uh anyway so that didn't go well and then uh and then basically uh my um my girlfriend came to brazil we went traveling uh i got really drunk the last night celebrating our trip and just slept all night really funny on my shoulder my shoulder's been hurting me for a long time and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die years uh and so by the time i got to the world cup it hurt you know just sitting there i couldn't i wasn't sleeping i wasn't you know any of that and i just started you know basically when when you're in pain like that that for me and i've experienced it once before with my back chronic pain and paragliding for me mean no patience so anytime you know you kind of you're like well just forget it i'm just gonna go if you know you're like i'm high enough i'm gonna go um so
that and then there's no discipline i no discipline it goes out the window because you just want the day to be over you want the pain to end you know yeah but also i mean i'm not going to blame it all on that i also was just not having a good competition and that was i mean there were some classic you know moments of bad decision mixed with you know kind of bad luck where i'd you know i'd fly to a giant you know in brazil there'll be thermals marked by birds that go thousands of feet high i'd fly to that thermal and i'd fly to a giant and i'd fly to a 2000 feet of birds climbing you know and they'd all fly away together you know or you know stuff like that where you're like what the yeah good timing so i'd land yeah yeah i'm like all right because i didn't have like this when i wasn't high and then i'd be like boom boom boom boom landing um uh and then you know mickey siegel actually said a funny thing to me too he's like now when i see you nick i know to go the opposite direction um because there is a thing i think with
this happened to another guy a french pilot wants it it's just that sometimes when you're doing really bad it's it's like it's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy yeah
yeah you're you're not the guy to bet on at the craps table no
yeah it's like you're a cooler right um and and so that that was kind of where i was and so it just keeps getting it kept getting worse and worse and then you know it's like i just don't care i just want to land by a road uh if i was going to land um the funny you know a couple funny things was you know torsten said he'd never searched the bottom of the list you know to see you know he would he would look for his result at the top because he was like in the top three and then he's like and then i would scroll all the way to the bottom to see if you made it you know if you did it you know and i'm like yeah i did it i last place because there was there was a french girl who had like broken her foot or something and didn't fly for three days uh and because of ftb she beat me in the end you know but it was close right up to the last day you know it was me and her fighting for last um but she she yeah she i persevered you know i don't think you know she could quite you know mess with my team my team loser status um but yeah so that you know but i stayed and and you know you stay and celebrate the winner and you know huge congratulations to michael cofer who flying out that that's a tricky place to fly and he flew consistently and crushed it and it was awesome to be there and party with him and celebrate um and i got a great photo that you know with he and i uh you know so it's if you're not first you're last kind of bookends of pilots for the PWC in brazil so
it seems to me like um you know the world cup's kind of one thing because of the shoulder and and uh just you know at some point there was probably just this like fuck it you know and uh but with the with the pan ams you know two days crushing so i mean because this has happened to me and i and i and i'm i try to do like you i try to write it down and log it and try to figure it out and my problem is always discipline um but you know when you go from you know hero to you you really in the pan ams you kind of had that one from from my perspective you you kind of had you just had to fly discipline and you would have wanted more you know or you would have done pretty well was that was that a mental thing or was it just were you pushing too hard were you was it was there something you could identify that was like yeah i i blew that or was it just paragliding and it just luck no
i blew that that's the biggest lead i've ever blown um i mean with ftv i just had to come in decent one day and i think i would have won right um but yeah i don't know i don't know that's the biggest lead i've ever blown but you know i haven't been racing in the last couple years um i think it was discipline i also think my shoulder was starting to hurt so i got i got home and i did eventually i was like man this shoulder i got an mri and i have a torn part of my shoulder um and it needs surgery it's fully torn and if i take care of it and do all the things that need to do it's usable you know that and that's the thing at rat race i was taking 12 ibuprofen a day um which the doctor said is okay and then putting some uh this hemp oil on it top um and and that was really helpful so but the point is there there was a real injury um i think that was i i think i just blew it but it you know at the pan ams um in terms of i made really poor decisions i started flying a little bit desperate i started flying um you know not not good tactically not a good tactical flying decision the first two days i flew great tactically and no matter what you can't you can't you know out maneuver you know the other pilots uh with bad decisions uh so i you know but i also think it was also just like i said the balance was starting to creep again in terms of me being i really wasn't having a ton of fun i wasn't happy up there you know i was kind of it just was you know it started becoming kind of annoying to to to go to launch you know uh we couldn't get to launch a bunch of the days i think also i just let a bunch of external factors influence you know that's the thing it's all about just staying calm and enjoying the process um can't get to launch it's cool you know uh if it's if it's you know you think oh well we may not fly today always be prepared to fly today uh you know always be positive and i think for me that's the number one number one thing and then and you know if you're positive you're always prepared to fly you're flying as decently tactically you're going to make some mistakes that's all you can do and then it's just you uh you know versus the the course versus you versus the pilot you know and i think if you're racing the course that's the that's the way forward you're not racing the pilots they're there to help you that's um and and and
if and if you can if you can do that you usually come out pretty good so
before we started recording you you had some really good thoughts on like the team loser thing you know like how do you how do you go from yeah the strategy of flying the course but also uh you know you were talking about like like day one at the rat race you know you're leading uh you know you're with the lead gaggle and and uh can you remember what happened the first day or second day anyway you you had one of the days where you didn't make it and the second day sorry
oh no the second day i got dropped but i was able so yeah so i think i know where you're going so i mean one thing we have this thing called team loser in america and there's a there's a facebook page which is hysterical you guys should all check it out um but you know we we basically we had this group of people that we you know we were losers um we had come from a you know long tradition of probably add and getting ahead of ourselves and early age that generally we were going to fuck up at some point and would need to apologize or uh you know we just they you know not be the we weren't true winners and i and i think that it's a really funny philosophical kind of group so there's winners and losers right and you can see like if you ask somebody like hey you want to be on team loser and they're a real winner they can't that you can see their eyes start to twitch um because they don't identify as a loser they're real winners you know they're the go-getters they're the doers they're the you know the they're best and the brightest and they went to an ivy league you know and they've always been winning um but a loser like you know myself and a group of us um we i think we failed a lot more and we're able and so therefore had to pick ourselves up more right um and i think that that comes into play in competition paragliding again i i think paragliding is the perfect mixture for add kind of you know individuals to a certain level of add um and and this is another example of how it benefits us to have have been losers for before we started paragliding um so that you know we're disappointed and bummed as much as anyone if we bomb out but we can also go all right well you know tomorrow's a new day you know let's let's see what what goes on um and and now with ftv we've seen you know over and over that if you just keep racing the course as well as you possibly can all you can do is as good as you can anyway you know you can't you know that's maybe facebook's bringing us down a bad road that way we're always trying to do as good as we keep up with the joneses right yeah you know we're but really all we can do is as well as each of us can um and so as long as you do that and keep moving forward you'll usually end up in a good spot so you know that's that i think being a loser inevitably will help you win in paragliding so
did you do anything between you know we we've had a terrifically bad spring of flying all of us all over the west has just been brutal you know there's a day here or there at best and so i know uh because i watch xc find like a hawk then you
know you've had a couple with josh and but between the world cup and rat race none of us got really that much time and so yeah did you do did you do anything did you yeah exactly did you like mentally did you do anything i mean how did how did you just you know to me you showed up and you were like i got this what did that did that just happen well
for me it was all about my my shoulder it was just about taking beings you know yeah i just had to i said the discomfort and so look your shoulder your shoulder in quotes can be different things but something that's making you uncomfortable whether it's mentally whether it's uh you know your equipment whether it's the conditions whatever is making you uncomfortable that needs to be identified and addressed for you to perform right we always joke about the beta blockers and the swiss team you know they're so they're so calm and they're able to and but that is truly that's it so whatever your shoulder is we use the shoulder as a you know this ambiguous um you know i guess a heel is what we say in american english whatever your heel is your achilles um that is what needs to be addressed so for me i needed to address my shoulder um in terms of i just had to get it to a place where i could actually fly without pain and so even on the practice day i only flew for an hour because i was worried like i don't want to use up my shoulder or like you know i would launch it late too each day if the if the cylinder was right over launch i would wait 45 minutes um because i was like i don't want to use up my shoulder because i was like well that's 45 minutes i don't have to fly with my shoulder you know and it worked my shoulder felt great and and and then as well i just tried to have fun you know that it's it that was for me was the it's the you know we have our things but for me if i'm having fun you know then everything else falls into place um and so i just try to have fun and enjoy my time there uh with you and with all the other pilots that i get to you know you when we fly up i was just so psyched to be flying with my friends and and also just be flying because we
between brazil and but you know for after brazil it took me six weeks to get my shoulder not to be just inflamed as all hell and so you know that that also is why i didn't fly because i just needed to rest it tell
me about some some of the specific things that you remember doing that you know it maybe afterwards you went yeah that really paid off um you know the strategy tactics or you know i god forbid i should compare our sport to golf but you know in terms of mentally uh and i'm not a golfer i'm not a golfer i'm not a golfer i'm not a golfer i'm not a golfer i'm not a golfer but my dad was my sister was and you know they always talk about you know five hours a day for five days is really hard to keep your shit together you know just one shot is all it takes to blow your whole comp and paragliding with fdv it's maybe not that harsh but it's you know it's kind of like that it's really you know once we step off the mountain it really is almost all mental um you know in these long comps like rat race where it's seven days for sure there's some physical component to it but what did you you know after the first couple days you're back in the swing of things you're climbing well you're you're you know you're up on top of the gaggles every day you're you know you're like yeah i can i can win this then what do you do you know how do you how do you how do you address each day
take it take it day by day don't don't think i can win this you know don't it's just day by day it's like hey i'm out here with my buddies again today let's have one you know um and then you know the the key is you know i think you know mitch brought up a really no compounding mistakes there were some you know some some on launch that i learned stuff from so uh you know no compounding mistakes if you do get left behind just fly as well as you can i mean i got left behind one day by 15k but luckily so did donna zete and matt henzie and so we had a a perfect group to rage back and we ended up finishing you know you crushed that day i think we were uh 10 minutes behind you but you know there was only you and brad and then the whole rest of the our group so you know flying again flying the course flying as good as you can taking it just you know day by day not not
thinking about the win but then you know once i did get in the lead reeling it back and you know so it's it's what if you crack off good good flights in the beginning you can have a good result you can you know coming in the goal one day uh you know i'd let i could let mitch go and and and i could slow back down and so just being conservative sometimes you know when when that called for so the the tactics definitely you know change a little bit just like in bike racing or anything if you have a lead um it's really difficult with fdc to be able to do that and tv though because i have no you have no clue what for me i mean i can't figure out the scoring formula you know and we had some problems with ours and they sent it to your he's like yeah it's messed up so i think no one can figure out the scoring formula um and that that's kind of disappointing i i hope that they can fix that at some point someone you know people smarter than us so you um because that's kind of bogus people like
verbally when you're with your friends and stuff you know the reason we all love to hang out with you is because you're freaking hysterical
oh dude i'm for sure gonna blow it tomorrow uh is that just for us is that just entertainment or is that you know because when i read like the psychology mitch inspired me to like start reading more psychology and josh did too he talked about you know that that that's how he's become kind of the bot is he's he read all this psychology and you know like kind of the bell court like bringing it thing like that the psychology the optimistic self-talk you're the opposite of that you're always like yeah i'm definitely gonna fuck it up is that just for our entertainment is that what actually what's going through your head or i
don't know i've never thought of it uh maybe i do that subconsciously no i mean i think you know i'm a i'm a i definitely like myself less than most people um and uh and so yeah i don't know and like i said i am a loser and so you know i've blown leads before so i'm like oh god but no you're right i should stop doing that i mean really i should it's i mean and and the truth is when i'm up raging i'm and i and i know i'm having one i know i'm having one like i know when i'm in the zone so that's kind of cool so you know but when i'm standing on the ground talking shit i'm not gonna be like oh yeah i'm gonna fuck people up tomorrow you know i have no idea what's gonna happen tomorrow you know
yeah um
because that's the truth to me but what i so to me it's more about being truthful versus self-fulfilling because when i'm up there and i'm like well i'm on one i go yeah you know that's what i you'll see i'll push out i'll leave i don't care who's with me you know um but but i could but so i do know when i'm in the zone i'm not gonna be like oh yeah i'm gonna you know and so that's kind of cool is there
anything you can do to get in the time i mean
how could we know it's like you like you said you know paragliding like i bombed out one day being stupid i i wasn't again i wasn't sleeping that great and you know luckily that night i got a great night's sleep but i was like this is the best i felt all comp it was day seven you know so yeah i don't know that's interesting to think i've never thought about it but i'll i'll take that back and think about that well
i mean it's it it's interesting because i've i've been trying to you know they just talk about in these in these books and this is a lot on this like self-help kick god forbid it's not like that it's more just i've been reading this guy that was a shooter and uh you know he just wasn't an athlete couldn't you know was last to get picked on the baseball team and basketball team and everything track and field his dad was an athlete and so really bummed him out and he he just became one of the best shooters in the world you know three olympics and all the stuff and it was just from in training but also he has this kind of mental approach of just you've you've got to talk to him you've got to talk to him you've got to talk to him you've got to talk to him into being a winner you got to talk yourself into being like i'm good at this and uh and i think that's what mitch brought up at the the thing and so i've i'm but i'm curious because in paragliding you know you have these like you said it's it's it's manic um and and i'm wondering what your self-talk was that week and especially as the week went on um uh you know was there like you said you you know you were disciplined about your strategy like hey okay now i don't need to win every day
was just don't let anybody get too far out you know i need to be disciplined now but was there was there other self-talk that was going on that was like like i'm talking about during the comp like once you've launched after the start um
yeah after the start i think um well every you know for me a competition is is about getting if i'm doing it well i'm in a really good routine you know um so you know you notice i showed up every day right in the morning at a certain time because for me it's all about a routine so it's i you know i get into this routine of and that's the groundhog day and that's the beauty of it where you know i'll have my coffee at the same time in the morning usually i like to work for two hours before the competition so that i can feel like okay you should you know i've done with my work for the day at least to hold it off uh and then come meet everyone and then um and then just try to keep keeping the energy low there uh and then you know like to launch so that there's a routine it happens the same every day and that to me is really
uh in terms of keeping my energy where it should be at the times it should be uh and then on launch those talks are a little distracting actually um but even on launch they changed the the launch thing once i don't know if you remember that where they put the board out one day so that everybody can program during the and that's the day i sunk out was because then i felt like i i mean that's not the reason why i feel like you're off the back i was off the back the whole time i i didn't my launch without my instruments on i want you know like i was like you know and i felt like people got ahead of me so i do think that there's psychology in that you know and so whatever i there also i just was tired of whether and i was you know day six uh i wasn't flying well but while i'm up there no it's you know i'm really i'm just trying to focus on having fun and flying cross country and you know i know that i've flown
paragliders cross country and race and more races than most of the people the competition so i in terms of experience i have no excuse you know there's no there's nothing holding back i have there's no excuses there um and so then it all just comes down to having fun and if i have fun i feel like i can win anywhere you know uh and and so to me i guess it's that's just focusing on that but that's why it's so important to deal with all these other things for me whether it's you know the the ptsd or uh not having your gear ready or whatever it may be so that it's worth it for us i mean that's the thing it's like otherwise if i'm up there and it's not that fun and i'm kind of stressed and i don't like this i don't like that then that balance starts to tip for me in terms of this isn't worth the risk the reward isn't worth the risk it's it's only when i'm really having fun and i'm like wow look at the earth it's we're up here what an amazing sport i can't believe we get to do this i mean i guess that's the self-talk that's going through my head uh when i'm doing well uh and i'm up here with my friends and oh how cool there's gavin what's up you know and and if and if you know that that is to me then it's because the scales are tipping back this is totally worth it i'm worth this is worth it to me to risk i i can mitigate the risk with with practice and skill and therefore i'm stoked to be up here
so i don't know i ask myself that a lot and now flying cross country i go land if i'm not happy you know i used to just grind it out or i don't even go launch i don't even go for launch um i'd go you know i'm not i'm not stoked why would i i'm just gonna go mountain biking or i'm gonna do something else and so i think being truly honest and listening to your gut uh it will make you a better pilot so all these things that's the funny part is that it's not just you know these foo-foo things they're actually this is all performance driven suggestions you know have
you ever noticed you mentioned flow and i think this is a common theme with with with flying with human flight these days and just in life there's been a lot of research and stuff on adele honte one of my my guests a few episodes back talked a lot about flow if you talk and i think it's something we've all experienced in flying at certain times um you know certainly i've had days in the x-hops where there's just amazing flow and other days where you're like yep there's no flow here there's zero um how do you have you ever identified like a way to enter it or you know you've you've said either there are days where you're racing you're just like i've got it i i have this other days where it's more struggle have you ever noticed like what maybe leads you to that or what is it or or just kind of happened because i i never have i've never figured that out i've never figured out that equation like sometimes it's just going you know and other times
it's just going you know and other times you're
times it's like fuck yeah i can't find it yeah
for me it's i think it's routine you know like i was saying i develop that routine and i don't try to deviate from it and that gives me my best chance of getting into it i think too the key and one of the reasons i did well is because you also need to know when your flow is over you sometimes you only get flow for a little bit and that's fine don't don't be don't be mad at that take that as a bonus and then kind of just then i just start bumbling around until i can like get back into a rhythm um but the beautiful thing about competing is you'll have other people to work with you until you get back into it yeah um for me it often takes eating you know just as long as i'm keeping my mind fed i can stay in a good state um but that's once an hour eating and drinking eating and drinking i know you've heard me talk about that incessantly but i think that's because for me um my form of edd or just my whatever neurochemical composition it needs it needs that food it needs sugars um it needs proteins uh in order to stay in a flow um or just even in a rhythm you know uh but i think i think it's that just like bad decisions compounding each other i think flow can compound each other so when you're in it go have one you know enjoy it yeah and so i say and i think it will perpetuate itself but you know like when i if i get gobbled up by the by the gaggle nowadays i'm like cool there's all my friends i guess that was fun you know i'm gonna fly with them now and i think that often you see the newer comp pilots who are doing well as soon as they get gaggled up you know gobbled up by the gaggle they try to push on low and so that's that's another kind of psychological switch that's happened in recent years for me one
of the things that i'm noticing um you know like on on instagram i see like the best of the best of chevy and Aaron Durogati and siegel and they take a lot of they're like you they take a lot of photos at comps um and i'm always like i used to look at that and go god i can't imagine you know i'm focused so hard in comps and i'm thinking so much and i'm strategizing so much and i you know and i often like when i fly i'm like i'm like i'm see here, I also eat every hour. And then I go to a comp and I'm like, oh, come on, this is three hours. I don't need to do that. But do you, I think that I've been wrong about that. I think like you're saying when, you know, when you're taking pictures and you're having fun, you relax, you, you're, you're, you're stepping back out of the moment a little bit and you're just enjoying it and therefore you fly better.
Yeah, definitely. And I think there's a, there's a breaking point, but like in photos, for example, I'll take photos, you know, when I'm, you know, I could begin before the starts, an hour and a half before the start. It gives me something to do, you know, um, and so I'll do it then. Yeah. Well, it gives you a shift and then I go, okay, I put it away now. This is what I'm doing more of now. Okay. Now it's time to put it away and dive into what, you know, like the real, what I need to be doing. And so it also just gives me a break, you know? Um, and then some days it's like, yeah, I'm not really feeling it. You're going to pull it out, you know? So, uh, yeah, I don't know. I think it, I think are good. I do believe photography could be an interesting tool for advanced pilots to give yourself breaks and be able to, you know, come out the other side, uh, having like kind of refreshed, you know?
And
I think that, I think that's what that eating does as well, or even just being, you know, all these things are just little things where you're like, okay, you know what, actually blowing this glide a tiny bit, it's not going to be that big a deal. You know, it's going to make me more comfortable. I'm going to be better prepared, you know, and all that, you know, you kind of learn that you just don't need to be hammering all the time.
Well, I'm, I'm, my climbing suffers if I'm not eating. Yeah, I can tell. I, I, I know for sure. Cause as soon as I eat, I'm like, yep, back here, you know, good. Now I'm feeling good again. Uh, so it's kind of funny. I, I even like, Oh, I forgot to eat. Cause I kept climbing like shit. I can tell, you know? So I, I think there's a lot to it. So yeah. Why would you, you know, this is just like any race and these are these rhythms, these, these patterns, you know, it's like, yeah, if you train one way, you train at home, you eat once an hour. When you go to the race, eat once an hour, even if it's an hour long, you know?
What did you learn from? I learned from Donizetti. That was really cool for all of us. I know Mitch made a bunch of comments about like him turning way wider and just, he was at, Donizetti was out climbing him all the time. So Mitch was like, I got to figure this out. That was really, that was really cool and useful for all of us because we all fly with all of us all the time. And it was really neat to have somebody from a different continent. Who's really awesome. Who has flown as far as the farthest flight that's ever been done. Um, just total badass. What's that? Yeah. Sorry. Twice. Twice. Yeah. Twice. Exactly.
Um, yeah.
What? 564. That's, that's not bad. Um, what did you, what did you learn from him? Cause you guys were, were having a killer battle right till the end, but.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, for me, it was just a real joy to fly with him. I mean, that's the thing. The beauty of this sport is in competitions at the top level, I am thrilled to fly with that. Donizetti was a true joy to fly with him and it was cool to watch him. Um, you know, basically. Yeah. And, you know, we would be, we would be pointing and helping each other and, um, and I don't know if you guys realize that, but yeah, generally we were both helping each other as much as possible. Yeah. And that's what, you know, a lot of people do. It's like, Hey, look, it's, we're all in this together to the last 15 K you know, and the faster that we can rally through here and get ahead of the next pack, the better. So, you know, so he was, he was just a real pleasure to fly with because he has so much experience flying in a, in a, um, in a, in a joint manner with other people for, to, to reach success.
So, um, it's just, I'm really, I'm psyched that we have someone else, uh, in our community. It's really fun to be in a position, you know, where we're always welcoming people, um, in the sense that it's never overcrowded in the U S for great pilots. So anybody that wants to come race with us, please come over. We'll show you a real good time.
Yeah. Well talking about a real good time and a real good race and a real good location. Uh, what are your takeaways from the rat race going into Chelan? Is there, is there more pressure? Is there less pressure? Is there, are you just stuck? Are you just stuck? Are you just soaked? Um, you know, what, what, what will you take away from, you know, what will you bring to that race that, uh, that came out of the rat race?
Yeah. You know, clean slate, I think. Um, I mean, I feel a little better. I mean, coming back from, uh, from the world cup, I was like, wow, you know, maybe this is over. I'll never race well again. I mean, obviously those, these thoughts go through your head. Um, not that that's going to be the end all for my life and how I'll be noted at what I'm going. But, um, you know, you think about that, you're like, oh man, we're going to have to, we're going to, this is over, you know, like that's last place is, you know, while it's really funny and, and, and I, I am proud because it's very difficult to really come in last place. Um, and be trying, you know, not be injured. Uh, uh, you know, uh, yeah, it's the same. It can happen again. You know, that's the thing with paragliding where you think, you know, if you look at the competition, it's very few people, once the wings were all equal, have dominated a paragliding competition.
Sure. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
I mean, it's a Superfinal last year after a one year. But Aaron won twice. And then last year I think he was in the eighties, you know, it's just, it's a pair. Yeah. You know, it
goes. Yeah. So no, I'm just thrilled for Chelan. That's my favorite place in the world to race. And so, um, um, yeah, I'm just psyched to be there with all you guys and Nate's come in and, you know, we're gonna have a great group of people, Mickey Siegel and her show an hour and it'll just be, you know, I'm just really enjoying more and more that these races, we get to fly with my friends, you know, I get to fly with my friends and that I don't get to fly with anybody, uh, anymore, you know, hardly. I live. Um, and so it's just a real great opportunity to be in a cool place, fly with my friends. So that's what I'm taking into it.
Nick, before we sign off, cause there's a ton of good stuff here. You, you, you said that, you know, you had the Kenya thing. Um, and then there were a couple others. Did, do you want to go into those before, before we depart?
No, no. I think, I mean, I think we're, people get the idea. My, my point, you know, and I, and I hope if people can take away from this is that it's okay. So to, to, and, and maybe cause we're so crazy, we even have to say this, you know, I think a lot of us smarter people just have left the sport earlier, you know, once one thing happened. Um, but the fact that we have to, you know, to me, uh, being the hardheaded, you know, kind of crazy dry, you know, paraglider driver that I am, you know, it's okay to, to process and deal with these things. And, and your friends are there for you and talk about it and, and, you know, what, whatever that may be, maybe it's something else, but if you want to increase your performance, you know, and you're not doing it, you're not doing as well as you want to be. I think that you need to look at what's actually truly affecting you and then deal with whatever that is.
So that, that's my takeaway.
Great advice, Nick. Thank you so much, man. This was a really special. I really appreciate it. I can't wait to race with you, dude. Again, in Chelan, it's going to be so fun. I know. And, uh, it was just awesome to watch you rock that thing. That was, that was a really cool thing. That was, I was a witness to something very special there. That was super fun and just a great week of racing. They did an awesome job. Putting that on, but, um, thank you for sharing, uh, all that.
Well, Gavin, thank you. And thank you for this resource. I hear so many pilots all over the world. Grateful for this. This is the biggest educational tool that's, uh, arguably ever been in the sport. So keep it up and, uh, and thank you for working on that global rescue thing. Ushua is now able to offer that to its members. Uh, and a huge part of that is because of you. So, and that's, you know, as you know, I'm a big proponent and all that rescue insurance. So I just want to take a moment. To thank you, uh, Gavin, for all that you do and keep doing it, man. It's, it's, it's really helping. And it's, I think it's making pilot's lives better. So thanks.
That's awesome. Well, it certainly is a pleasure. Thanks, Nick.
All right. See ya.
I hope you enjoyed that. Always fun to hear from Nick. Uh, and that going from zero to hero was, uh, is pretty entertaining. It's going to be fun to race with them here in Chelan. One of the greatest places to race in the world in my mind here in a couple of weeks. But, uh, as always, all we ask for a buck is a buck a show. If you've enjoyed the show or you got something out of it, please let us know. And we'll see you next time. Or if you're just discovering the show, please go back and check out all the many, many, many hours of incredible advice. Like the show was from Nick Greece, uh, Russ Ogden and Will Gadd and Nate scales and Cedar Wright. And there's just, there's some terrific content there. So, uh, go back and check those out. And, and yet if, if you can't afford it, we totally understand there's, there are many ways to support the show. You can blog about it. You can share it on Facebook or Instagram or however you talk to your friends.
You can talk about it on the way up to launch. That's what I just heard. I heard at the rat race, people are doing a lot of is, you know, listening to the podcast and then have just having discussions on the way up. Like, Hey, what'd you think about this? Did you agree with that? Um, that's all very cool as well. So it's awesome that the word is spreading. So it's so fantastic that so many people are listening. It's a real joy to bring to you. Uh, you can find other ways to support the show at the website cloudbasedmayhem.com and just click on support and you can do it on a one-time basis through PayPal, or you can sign up through Patreon and be rewarded for doing so, or you can kind of just set up a show. So, uh, it wouldn't be possible without you, our listeners making this possible. So thank you very much. And we'll see you on the next show. Cheers.